Climate of Fear, Hate Makes Immigrants Villains
Is anyone old enough to remember the expression “Go back to Africa”? Can anyone remember when the lynchings of blacks and Asians and the hunting down of American Indians and Mexicans were commonplace?
Does anyone remember when Jews — during the time of the Holocaust — were turned away at this nation’s borders? How about the Chinese Exclusion Act? Can anyone remember when the Irish, Germans and Italians were not welcome here?
This country has had a long and sordid history of xenophobia and scapegoat politics, which brings us to the current immigration debate.
Prior to this debate, I had not been aware that illegal immigrants were the No. 1 threat to the security of the most powerful nation on Earth and the cause of the majority of the nation’s many problems.
It’s amazing how we are all easily manipulated and corralled. All we seem to need is for someone to whip up the frenzy to permit the immoral discrimination against and segregation of human beings and to permit the mass incarceration of Japanese-American citizens or to conduct an Operation Wetback to send Mexican-American citizens “back to where they came from.”
Not too long ago, it was George Wallace. Yesterday it was Pat Buchanan. Today it is the Three Amigos: CNN’s Lou Dobbs and Republican presidential hopefuls Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter.
And it is amazing the lengths that people who have been formerly targeted by demagogues will go to to prove their Americanism. They seemingly scream the loudest when a new group has been targeted. One can hear the catharsis — an incredible sigh of relief — when they are able to point a finger at another group.
This time around, illegal immigrants are the target. They can’t fight back or vote or even protest in public. And technically, they don’t have a face. All the vitriol can be hurled against them without feeling guilty — just don’t say the word Mexican and you can’t be accused of being a bigot. Besides, you have nothing against brown people, as long as they’re legal, educated, employed (just as long as the job is not too good) and can speak English.
Consider the following: If the United States were to put up a 2,000-mile wall along the U.S.-Mexico border and if the 12 million nannies, busboys, gardeners and maids were deported, would the illegal and immoral war in Iraq immediately come to a halt?
If undocumented workers were deported, would gas prices go down, would it compel U.S. corporations to immediately institute a living wage for all workers, and would Congress pass universal health care overnight?
Contrary to what some have claimed, a recent study by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center found that immigrants are much less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born residents of the same ethnicity. Another study, by the Public Policy Institute of California, has shown that immigrants are more likely to push up wages than depress them.
But who listens to facts anymore?
The urge to blame illegal immigrants or anyone else for the nation’s problems is the result of the Bush administration’s politics of fear, hate and blame. They’ve unleashed that dynamic, and now Americans have come to believe that their rights, livelihood and happiness depend on the denigration and dehumanization of their fellow human beings.
Perhaps the demagoguery is limited to a loud and rancorous minority of Republican ideologues; we do know that a majority of U.S. citizens support a path to legalization for this nation’s undocumented immigrants. They do not want to continue to divide up human beings into legal and illegal categories.
It doesn’t have to be this way; a simple transnational labor agreement could change all this. The drawback is that workers and their families would not lose their human rights, dignity or citizenship in the process — so who would we then blame for the nation’s problems?
Roberto Rodriguez of Madison offers a Latino/indigenous perspective on the Americas.
© 2007 The Capital Times
It is, of course, incorrect and inflamatory to suggest that lynchings were ever “commonplace.” Yes, they occurred. Yes, they are obscene and disgusting and every other evil word you can think of, and they are a huge black stain on this nation’s history, but “common?” By no means am I attempting to minimize the issue of lynchings; rather, I am trying to get political discussion in this country back to where it hasn’t been in years - back to a place where rational discussion and FACTS are relevant, not fear-based hatemongering.
“Is anyone old enough to remember the expression “Go back to Africa”?”
Unfortunately I’m in my early twenties and I heard it said a few times back in Pennsylvania by some very ignorant, racist people. But yes, this year the hatred has switched from homosexuals to “illegal immigrants.”
http://www.dreamingearth.net
Auberon, Lynchings were commonplace in this country, the last one was in ILL in the summer of 1968. When Emmit Till was murdered they were 10 per week, that is commonplace.
In the absence of anything valabe or real to offer, fascism relies on racism, scapegoating and nationalist xenophobia. We have to reach beyond that and point out that our fellow workers are not the enemy. It is the shenanigans of our own leaders that have lead to the financial disaster south of our border that causes people to migrate north seeking a living. Borders should not define what wages are paid and under what conditions — especially when we are all working for the same corporations. Mexican workers and US workers share the same enemy!
Leave it to a liberal to split hairs over words like “commonplace”, which was used in the context of understanding just how widespread the lynching problem was, or how long it has taken most white Americans to understand the very concept of due process. After all, a lot of lynchings in this country have taken place as a product of the so-called criminal justice system itself, so they aren’t even counted.
It’s the logic of the person who never had to feel the impact of the car, so is quite certain that the accident must not have happened.
Auberon,
The FACTS are that the hate-mongering is what keeps these issues never ending. (Great article, btw) And remember, the FACTS are/were skewed, so any chance of not attaching the basic notion of capitalism to any of these conversations keeps the ball rolling.
This land is not designated for any specific group(s) of people. It is for all to learn to live/survive together.
Capitalism keeps showing the pattern of disposable people. It’s time to modify the system, and this immigration issue is only scratching the surface.
Contrary to what some have claimed, a recent study by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center found that immigrants are much less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born residents of the same ethnicity. GREAT. In other words, immigrants children, of the same ethnicity, are even more criminal than their parents.
I think comparing the enforcement existing immigration laws, to the anti-semetism of the 1930’s and the racisim against blacks in the south, is a bit of a stretch.
As an American that has worked in occupations(farm worker, construction worker, software engineer) in which immigrants play a very important role, I tend to think that immigrants are used as a shield by wealthy and corporate interests in the US. Why should any amnesty apply to US citizens that profitted from violating US immigration law?
There is much more operating here than simple xenophobia. For most Americans, their US citizenship is the most valuable asset they can ever hope to have. Allowing citizenship to be doled out as fits corporate interests degrades the value of citizenship and props up a predatory elite. Has the average American’s life really improved since the 1965 immigration expansion? What about the distribution of wealth and income?
The Kennedy/McCain/Bush proposal is not a solution to this problem.
We need to look beyond the currently popular proposals to a package of policies that might really improve the lives of people in both Mexico and the US.
When you look at other countries with high levels of immigration, most are quite undemocratic. There are also clear examples of highly egalitarian countries that have prospered without high levels of immigration.
Do immigration and massive US foreign borrowing keep the US from pursuing sane, realistic solutions to its problems? Clearly this unpopular, unnecessary war would be harder for the US government to fight if it had to pay a living wage at home-and couldn’t recruit soldiers lured by the attraction of a green-card.
The Mexican people are the most hospitable and industrious people you can find anywhere. My late wife was of Hispanic roots so my children are half Hispanic. I have always been happy to see more Mexican people being accepted into the U.S.A.. and I firmly believe that other nationalities, with their own customs and culture, add a distinct and desirable zest to those of our own. However, the Mexican Government is not doing nearly as much as they should be doing for their people and we should not be expected to take on more than we can handle without sacrificing the good life that our own people have worked so hard to attain. The hordes of people coming across our southern border illegally are beyond our capacity to control. We must insist that these “illegals” go through the same proceedures that all previous residence seekers have done. This has nothing to do with the “go back to Africa” comments made above. Our economy stands to be destroyed if some measures aren’t taken now before it’s too late. Our health facilities are already beginning to burst at the flimsy seams by this overload. I don’t like the present bill that is under consideration right now but we will have to do something very, very soon or face some disasters down the road.
The distribution pattern of wealth has not changed significantly since about 1914 and so immigration is irrelevant. The labor and consumption of an expanded underclass permits the super-rich to expand their wealth proportionally.
Why doesn’t it bother the anti-immigrant folks that they are on the same side of the fence as the bigots and fascists? Literally and figuratively.
Why does that not make the anti-immigrant folks stop and think and re-examine the assumptions that lead to an unacceptable conclusion?
How dare the anti-immigrant folks create and propose justifications for acts of bigotry and fascism?
The past is in the past and we can certainly learn from it but…really? ALL estimated 12 million illegal immigrants are employed??? Do you have proof to back that up? And, does the magic 12 million estimate include those that are currently in prison?
Lew2007, you might want to read the Pew Report
Beyond Red and Blue-just to get the lay of the political divide we are facing here. One of the groups that is most likely to support immigration restriction are the poorest Democrats(but they do so purely on economic grounds-stuff like English First isn’t really important to them).
There are plenty of class-based bigots that support mass immigration(the kinds of folks that use the terms ‘white trash’ or ‘inbreeders’ without thought).
My sources tell me that Teddy Kennedy, a leader of the current legislation actually has some real serious issues with ethno-centric and religious bigotry-and tended to side with the elements of that family that viewed themselves more as Irish in America than as Americans.
I don’t know what is in Teddy’s heart. I know I have met prominent “liberal” democratic politicians that really weren’t that far from the KKK in their private thoughts so I’m inclined to believe my sources here.
the issue is economic, and the one thing that i have in common w/all the immigrants trying to get here? THE WORKING CLASS. if you want to fix immigration, make life livable in mexico (and the US for that matter). it’s the simplest, most humane solution, and will not involve any more resources than the hundreds of billions to be spent on fences, surveillance, and rounding up people and monitoring employers. but it would change the distribtion of power in society, and we can’t have that, can we? so we’ll get the law-n-order chamber of commerce solution, instead.
and anti-immigrant hysteria is part and parcel of incipient fascism.
This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway…
Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about.
As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia–since WE were here first–and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for.
“It doesn’t have to be this way; a simple transnational labor agreement could change all this. The drawback is that workers and their families would not lose their human rights, dignity or citizenship in the process — so who would we then blame for the nation’s problems?
Mr. Rodgriguez, I’d take your prescriptions a little more seriously if you advocated the same “transnational labor agreement” for Mexico’s illegals. Mexico is guilty of hideous violations of the human rights of Central and South American illegal aliens in their country. Why doesn’t that matter to you?
American citizens are never in danger of losing their citizenship unless they renounce it or, much more rarely, obtain it fraudulently. In Mexico, political activity by non-citizens is absolutely not tolerated; it leads to instant deportation. Why is it that in Mexico even naturalized citizens have rights inferior to the native born?
I blame people like you for the problems immigrants face. Instead of trying to make Mexico a more livable, decent place, you want to come up here and indict America and Americans on absolutely specious charges. Mexico naturalized fewer than two hundred citizens last year.
Shouldn’t we benighted and cruel Americans follow the example of enlightened Mexicans on immigration issues?
Did you read the main article and my response randall? You seem to have made up your mind already and then provide your poses rather than directly responding.
You have no qualms about being on the same side of the fence as bigots because you can point at scientific or economic reasons for your position?
Come on, tell your feelings about proudly standing along side the bigots who simply want to send the brown folks home.
Bigotry and acts of bigotry are simply unacceptable and you should be ashamed for being on that side of the fence.
Sell your foolishness to other fools where you are fooling yourself if you think your support of acts of bigotry does not make you a bigot randall.
You know the immigration issue reminds me a little of physics. What happens when you have a high concentration of an element in solution and add water? It gets diluted, does it not? If immigrants rush into this country unchecked (doesn’t matter what race or creed); resources, jobs, and pay get diluted. This is exactly what is happening in the US today. Corporate greed is what’s behind this influx; the big stockholders and robber barrons win while the rest of us lose, even those immigrants who migrate here–eventually. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and “cheap labor” will end up costing us all in the long run. Think about it.
Lew,
In regards to your comments to Randall on being on the same side as bigots, are you aware that if you oppose cigarette smoking on health grounds, you’re on the same side of the issue as Adolf Hitler? And if bigots believe that two and two equals four, am I a bigot for believing the same thing?
Besides, calling people bigot and other names is the most graceless way of admitting you’ve lost the argument. Why not put the name-calling aside and sharpen up your arguments? I think I can speak for Mr. Burns when I say that we’d all love to hear a cogent pro-immigration argument.
I have an easy solution: all you whiners can phone your congresspeople and demand that the half of Mexico that the US obtained in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo be sold back to Mexico–for the same price, of course.
Problem solved–at least for the moment.
I will make this real simple for you, America’s business is to take care of every single American regardless of race and color first. No exceptions. No giving to others from other countries while our citizens are homeless and unemployed. You talk about racism it is actually a class war and all of the people who have a problem putting all of their fellow citizens first need to look at where they stand.
If nafta or some other mechanism is wrecking Mexico then the people of that country can act to change that, We have a lot of Americans who need and deserve the attention and the energy focused on the problems created here by lowered wages and a tendency to hire illegals over Americans because they are cheaper do not fall for the old line no Americans want these jobs. It is a lie.
So to put in an easy to understand context while our people are hungry, homeless, and hurting, we cannot give at this time.
By making Latin America better for their people, Chavez, Morales, Kirchner, Lula and other socialist administrations are doing more to curb illegal immigration here than any fence could ever do.
mfskinner,
The US did a great job taking care of us folks from the First Nations. The policy was called genocide.
And it is still called that.
NAFTA and the other Free-to-exploit Trade Agreements have been instrumental in driving people across our borders. Remember that these agreements actually contain clauses that give power to corporations to challenge governments (even our Federal and State governments).
We need to repeal all the “free” trade agreements and enforce our laws, hitting some big employers of illegal aliens with maximum fines and imprisonment. Now that the Bush maladministration has backed the use of corn for ethanol production, the Mexican farmers will benefit from the inevitable increase in price.
That’s all we need to feed the hungry: ethanol produced from food crops!
the US Government and its right-wing zealots love to call immigrants invaders but don’t have a problem INVADING other nations. The list of US invasions of the last 60 years is staggering, Iraq is just the latest.
Brisbane, please do list the countries that are victims of unprovoked US aggression. I’d love to see it.
This is one of those “times that try mens’ souls”, but also that try one’s faith in democracy. Illegal immigrants are absolutely not the great dangers to our security, nor the craven recipients of unearned benefits. They are basically honest, patient, and incredibly hard working, wonderful future members of the American melting pot. But too many citizens are filled with fears and hates, and are charged up by the likes of Lou Dobbs and many leading Reublican politicians. Thus we have a democratic mob action to punish these immigrants as miscreants. I am deeply saddened by the suffering and unearned punitive actions they experience. I hope Dobbs will be fired from CNN, and the anti-immigrant leaders will lose elections, but fear they will simply carry on, spreading lies and hatred against a harmless people.
When I was seventeen y/o I was convicted of a felony. I paid fines, served probation “did my time” (they did not have community service in those days –1969) my record was expunged.
By the time I was twenty one I was a US Marine Platoon Sergeant. I have had two speeding tickets since then. Rehabilitated you might say.
No one who has been convicted of a crime has more right to DEMAND that anyone else who commits a crime should pay for it. We EARN the right by our own payments.
If you are here in the USA illegally, then you are a criminal since the definition of a “Criminal” is one who breaks the law.
Make it straight, do your time, become “rehabilitated” and go on with your life.
IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE, MR. RODRIGUEZ .
Yellow Horse
God, this is so simple, why all the bickering. Advertise all those jobs the Mexicans are taking from Americans (oh wait, are Mexicans not “americans”?) in the local newspapers and help-wanted notice boards and give “Americans” the first pick and the brown americans the second pick. I am sure all those unemployed Americans are going to bust their ass to get in line to pick tomatoes.
moonraven, I can see your point. My great-great-great grandmother walked the Trail of Tears. That was on my fathers side. My mothers people denied their Choctaw heritage in shame. All because of a bunch of immigrants from Europe. Now, the Great Wheel has come around and it’s them fearing immigration. As far as I can see, this is Karma. Since ‘Greed is the Creed’ in America, they will come and come and the Political Whores in Washington are caught between a rock and a hard place. It’s kinda nice to see them suffer for a change.
“moonraven June 7th, 2007 5:38 pm
That’s all we need to feed the hungry: ethanol produced from food crops!”
At least they can drink it and forget their troubles.
As disingenuous a piece of propaganda as ever published. First, play the race card. Then it’s a comparison to Hitler’s Germany. Then it’s concocted hyperbolics pulled straight out of the arse: “number one threat to security, “the cause of the majority of the nation’s problems” and all the rest of this garbage. Then it’s insult after insult: how weak we are to be “corralled,” how easily Americans are “whipped into a frenzy,” followed up by a stunning rhetorical question “who listens to facts any more?”
Senor Rodriguez, you are the biggest frenzy whipper and fact dodger that ever propagated a lie.
Senor Rodriquez, the US IS FOR CITIZENS FIRST. Period. That includes Mexican-Americans, African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans, and white Americans. All people who are CITIZENS. And the influx of illegal immigrants is depressing wages and benefits for our citizens. There’s no dispute. It’s simple economics: supply and demand.
Senor Rodriguez, have you ever stood on a street corner with an unemployed citizen in the construction trade while pickup trucks stop at the corner and wave however many illegals they need that day into the back of the truck bed, only to zoom off to build multi-million dollar mansions on the Jersey shore for ten bucks an hour and a roast beef sandwich? I have.
That’s precisely what these people were paid, Senor Rodriguez: ten bucks an hour and a roast beef sandwich, for building multi-million dollar mansions in a state where the cost of living is astronomical. You might be surprised to find out that that sets the market rate for that labor. So unless one is willing to live a dozen or more to a tiny apartment and ride a bicycle to work, it’s not a living wage.
Senor Rodriguez, American families don’t want to live a dozen or more to a small apartment, and to ask them to do so to prove to you that they’re not ignorant, racist, gullible, or whatever other phantasmic apparition your mind can conjure merely exposes how blind your biases have rendered you.
So please don’t hand me your suppositions about what motivates those critical of this situation. People aren’t as ignorant of these realities as you make them out to be. Fact is, you are the one who cannot deal with this economic reality on a factual, rational basis, which is why you must resort to belittling and hyperbolics.
All that said, I don’t blame the people coming here. It’s not their fault. It’s the cooperation of elites in Mexico and here in the US that create the conditions that forces these people here, under extreme hardship, to try to keep their families from starving. They are indeed hard working, pious, and self-sacificing people. My heart goes out to them. But this demolition of the working poor is precisely what these elites are trying to implement here as well, and we must pull together to stop it, and pronto, or we’ll all be in the same sinking boat.
Therefore, Senor Rodriguez, at the risk of you calling me some nefarious bastard, my heart goes out infintely more to the American citizen who can no longer make ends meet because their jobs were either shipped off shore or workers with no status were imported illegally. It is my view that we must take care of our own first, because to do otherwise moves us along the path to driving the economy in this country to third-world levels.
Where in the hell are liberals who used to be adovcates for the working stiff in this country? Cowering in the corner lest they be labeled racist? Well, I’ve about had it with that noise: you all can call me whatever your little heart desires — but it’s time for some damn truth around here. I’ll never be ashamed of speaking out for working citizens, and I surely won’t be dissuaded by irrational gibberish like this.
Senor Rodriguez, your cause would be better served critiquing Mexico and the Mexican Elites in the interest of fomenting positive change there than laying the burden on the poor working citizen trying to make ends meet here in the US.
Being intentionally obtuse does not aide the discussion.
Advocating that a group of people can and should be removed from a situation to improve a situation is barbaric and bigotry and unacceptable.
History and experience reveal that immigrants make America strong and better, both economically and culturally.
I guess we should tear down the Statue of Liberty if it is a lie and misleading.
“Don’t send your huddled masses yearning to breath free here anymore. We will detain and eventually deport any wretched refuse that teems to our shore from now on.”
paraphrased from Randall and Dunnyveg
America is a nation of immigrants, except for the native Americans. That is one basis of my pro-immigrant stance.
Is that cogent enough for you smart guy?
Actually, many of the populations now in the US never “immigrated” to the US but were acquired by the US via the Louisiana Purchase, Alaskan purchase or the Mexican American war(i.e. via a territorial purchase or conquest). Many of original settlers in British Colonies came as slaves(the African Americans), convicts(Georgia) or bonded servants with only slightly higher effective status than slaves.
Lew, wrote:
“You have no qualms about being on the same side of the fence as bigots because you can point at scientific or economic reasons for your position?”
Since you didn’t read the link I posted to Beyond Red and Blue, I’ll spell it out for you. Both parties are divided along class lines on the topic of immigration.
Racial bigots are generally poor and support low immigration. Class bigots are generally rich and support high immigration. Either side you take in the present situation means you are supporting some form of bigotry. Contrary to what fraud artists like Morris Dees get paid to say, I think class bigotry is a much bigger immediate threat to the average american than racial bigotry. We have a situation where over 40% of all americans have essentially zero assets other than their citizenship rights-and the assets of the top 1% have grown rapidly under Bush(I’ve heard of reports saying this will top 50% by the end of Bush’s term). I see that as dangerous. I also see the situation in US prisons as extremely volatile(an an issue Dees would address if he was seriously wanting to stem the growth of hate groups).
Dearest Lew,
No one is advocating deportation. Existing laws requiring prison for employers hiring illegal aliens need to be enforced. That’s all.
Of course immigrants make the US stronger and better — just not in these numbers over this period of time. The deleterious effects on the economy are disputed only by the pro-Latino racists. Of course, one has to actually work for a living to notice.
Oh and of course, let’s by all means tear down the Statue of Liberty. That hyperbole definitely adds to the discussion.
I notice that everybody who disagrees with you is defined as a bigot. That helps your cause as well.
Now then, hopefully now that you’ve got that neanderthal attack reflex out of your system, there, Alley Oop, you can stick to rational argument instead of name calling.
But if you think that name calling is going to change the facts on the ground as they are, well, hey, you just knock yourself out, big fella. You might be shocked to find out that I don’t live for your love.
But better that if you have something rational to add to the discussion, some personal experience, some facts, something — anything — you should stick to that. It becomes you more than acting as self-appointed English teacher who resorts to critique of style over argument on substance.
I agree with trippin and chessgame56, I feel we have a job shortage in this country, for the US citizens. The illegals work for less money which makes it hard for the rest of us, while the employer makes out better than ever.
Ironically, here in Arizona most of the explosive, non-sustainable growth is due to “immigration” from the Midwest and Northeast–thousands of miles from here. Meanwhile, people who are actually indigenous to this area, but were born on the wrong side of the border, are referred to as “aliens.”
Just look at the trends and what’s happening to our jobs. Corporations cannot cut benefits or outsource/insource jobs fast enough. Recently, I went to a construction site to perform some IT work, and had a hard time finding someone who spoke English! Many of the jobs being done there by immigrants were skilled. It’s very difficult to believe that American workers could not be found to do these same jobs for a decent living wage. And I think that’s the point: employers want to skim by, paying as little as they can get away with. And if they can get away with it, what’s to make them stop? They can blah, blah, blah all they want about how altruistic they are, when the real truth is that the only thing they care about is lining their pockets. Without sensible regulation, American citizens and immigrants alike, become mere pawns in a ruthless profit-making game.
The polls I’ve seen suggest that americans :
want less overall immigration
want to avoid rapid deportations
want to see less concentration of wealth
want true jobs growth for existing Americans
Now, to put this in perspective:
The US has a very high rate of immigration. The US gets about 10 Million applications for immigration each year-and accepts only about 1-1.2 Million. Another 800K-1.2 Million immigrate illegally each year. The public might accept some slight raise of the legal quota to really dramatically reduce illegal immigration. 1.4 Million is still a significant overall reduction. Even if that were halved, the US would still be a high immigration country by international standards.
I suspect that unless the US truly reinvents itself technologically and economically, it will have trouble accepting more than 700K immigrants each year and maintaining living stardards. I’m perfectly willing to accept substantial technological and economic change in the US-but until we really see results that mean more and better jobs for Americans, reduced wealth concentration and increased disposable income for low earning Americans, I think we need to approach this whole issue VERY carefully.
Trippin wrote:
‘No one is advocating deportation. Existing laws requiring prison for employers hiring illegal aliens need to be enforced. That’s all.’
The range of immigration offenses that carry prison time are actually pretty narrow. Also, the current fines are currently capped at $25,000 per violation or so. The potential benefit per violation is substantially greater than that. Ask yourself what someone would have to give you to renounce your US citizenship? There are places that sell citizenship–and the going rate is often around $150K. My calculation is that US citizenship is worth at least $300K-and probably more.
People are willing to risk prison time if big money is at stake-and until the fines and risk of getting caught outweigh the benefits from violating US immigration law, the employers will continue to do so.
I think that enforcing the existing laws would change the game pretty dramatically–but I don’t think it would really solve the problem. Drug dealers, credit card fraud artists and other criminals would still routinely violate US immigration law. We’d still see employers that see the current fines as just a cost of doing business. Illegal immigration would be less common than now, but it would take a lot more to get the situation really under control. Furthermore,if the needs of Mexico and Central America aren’t really considered here, a rapid enforcement of US immigration laws could destabilize the region. It will probably take more money than the fines collected to avoid that problem.
I support enforcement of existing immigration law-but I think a lot more will be necessary to really resolve this issue honorably and fairly. I suspect it will take so much that if that is done, we will no longer see any substantial concentrations of wealth or political power in the Americas.
trippin is not tripping.
Be sure to read his post, Roberto.
This is a nation of laws, theoretically, and xenophobia. racism, homphobia, etc, are separate issues.
If you sneak into this country you are:
1. abandoning your own country
2. violating the laws of this country
People from the south tend to have a bad time of it in their own countries, where they have been exploited by US corporations and US funded death squads. The US has treated them poorly by supporting the worst elements in their native societies.
The US also treats them poorly by looking the other way as they sneak across the border because sooner or later the law must be enforced and the illegals may find themselves once again in an oppressive situation.
These people are not free loaders. They work hard, most of them. They are exploited, most of them.
The hope is that there will be a quality of mercy in the new immigration law.
There must be law.
Cease your demagoguery, Roberto. Support a nation of laws. You’re not doing them any favors by polarizing the political environment.
trippin,
very good perspective. I always wonder what the illegal immigration advocates gain. At the risk of repeating myself, I think commondreams gets co-opted by the neoliberals on the immigration issue; notice no article by immigration opponents are posted and most folks like yourself are shouted down and called bigots or racist. I’m a little disillusioned with the whole “progressive” ideology. From the posts I see and the people I talk to (I live in a border state with the oldest Hispanic population in the country) most people want controls on immigration -meaning less of it.
Rodriguez article is shameful and uses what all radical racist Hispanics use -the race card.
Also, to Moonraven, the “europeans” who did the indigenous populations the most damage were the Spanish. Your people were enslaved, murdered and raped and I’m willing to bet you are not 100% full-blooded Amerindian. Most Hispanic people today have Spanish/Mexican blood, among others, and if you look back into history and look at the connection with the Moors you’ll get an idea of what “blood” mestizos do have.
People should google studies made by White and Hispanic sociologists who agree that the influx of Latino will not integrate into America as European immigrants did. In fact, opinions suggest the “balkanization” of America as cultures become more separate. You can observe that in my home state.
When were Asians ever lynched. I do not recall. He must be talking about the time they were rounded up during ww2 because they may be a security threat. None were killed so it is not the same.
It is not skategoating lots are coming over and having an affect on wages.
What does this person do for a living and would he be so welcoming to his brothers if his wage was lowered to 2 dollars an hour.
Nanoo, I repeat, do you really think that all those unemployed people will run out and pick tomatoes, prunes, apricots, apples, strawberrys, potatoes, and cotton (do they still pick cotton?) if those pesky brown folks were kept on their side of the border? Let’s say they get minimum wage, and believe me it would never be more (and I would even lay money on Congress exempting farm labor from minimum wage laws), do you really think all those people unemployed, or all those people unhappy with their current jobs will flock to the fields to do stoop and sweat labor?
hahahahaha-no, hell no
I say back the buses up to the border and truck em in-thank you Mexicans.
I’m an opponent of illegal immigration, and I’m not advocating genocide.
We need to go after the right people, and those people aren’t poor Mexicans looking for work. The right people are in big business, and they need to be fined and/or jailed for hiring illegal immigrants. Eliminate NAFTA and GATT, and forgive third world debt.
I don’t want people coming here to do work that supposedly no one else will do for peanuts. Americans will do those jobs if they are paid a fair, reasonable wage. The people of Mexico need to turn the tables on their little oligarchy instead of just running here where quite frankly, they are not going to be much better off.
“I always wonder what the illegal immigration advocates gain.”
I think that certain people want to increase their profit margins. I think there’s also a pro-hispanic bias on the one side and an anti-hispanic bias on the other side. Sometimes when reading and listening to discussions about this issue, I get the feeling that if most of the people coming over here were from Iceland, the opinions would change, or they’d be non-existent. Would Mr. Rodriguez care? Or would be be against them? Would Pat Buchanan care? Or would he be welcoming them in?
What’s really sad is that this issue is so clouded by race and ethnicity. And the solutions to the problem are very simple. They don’t involve mass imprisonment and deportation and fences.
“This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway…
moonraven June 7th, 2007 3:56 pm
Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about.
“As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia–since WE were here first–and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for.”
I’m not calling for the killing of anyone. Not everyone can just come here. That’s part of the problem with this world today, everyone wants to go somewhere else instead of improving things where they are. I even see it in my city. Everyone wants to run to the sticks.
Part of it is America’s fault. We exploit poorer nations and cripple them with debt. We have all the wealth and the power, so it’s no wonder that so many people are just dying (literally in some cases) to come here. That just shouldn’t be. The powers that be in Mexico want all their disgruntled folk to pack up and leave so as to not be a threat.
“This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway…”
It’s cynical, but I don’t really have a problem with what you’re saying. Everyone gets screwed in this.
“moonraven June 7th, 2007 3:56 pm
Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about.”
Well, there ya go. I guess we’re all a bunch of Archie Bunkers then. The right already sticks it to us, so I guess the left might as well also, as if intolerance is non-existent elsewhere. No wonder so many poor and working people don’t vote. The right only cares about money and power. And the left only seemingly cares about identity politics (I know it’s not everyone or even most, but still, that perception is there…).
“As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia–since WE were here first–and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for.”
I’m an opponent of sorts, and I don’t want anyone getting killed over this. It doesn’t have to be that way.
I screwed up.
Man that post is a mess. Sorry.
After thinking about it, I do think it is about fascism to an extent. It’s actually the corpro-fascists who benefit from this in the end. I mean, what else are they?
The Elites are the ones who need to be villified in all of this not the immigrants. They are victims also as are the working and poor people of America. We’re being pitted against one another.
Phooey. ICE agents are detaining and deporting actual human beings as we speak because of fears about immigrants and so it is dishonest to pretend deportation is not part of this discussion. I guess this is some of intellectual game for you guys instead of discussing real people and real lives. That is how you can wave away being called bigots. You think that you are only thinking in economic and legal concepts and not about brown people. It is indeed brown folks that suffer from your fears about the impact of immigration and your efforts to promote that fear.
Good article. In my experience, politicians use immigration as a convenient scapegoat to take away from their own policy failures. Those who have been most affected by government incompetence, seem to blame the immigrants for what is actually the politicians’ fault.
What a ridiculous article.
These two sentences from the article sum up why people in favor of this bill don’t have a clue: “This time around, illegal immigrants are the target. They can’t fight back or vote or even protest in public.” That’s right, they are “ILLEGAL”. They don’t deserve a vote or even a voice.
Granting amnesty to illegals is a slap in the face to every immigrant that has applied to come into this country legally. The majority of americans are not against immigration; they just want it to occur by legal means in order to establish accountability.
This article stated: “Consider the following: If the United States were to put up a 2,000-mile wall along the U.S.-Mexico border and if the 12 million nannies, busboys, gardeners and maids were deported, would the illegal and immoral war in Iraq immediately come to a halt?”
Please explain how border security and the war in Iraq are related.
To say that the war in Iraq is illegal is proposterous. If you have some evidence backing that claim, then please send it to Senators Schumer and Clinton so that they can begin with impeachment proceedings.
I think you are at least fifty to one hundred years behind the times. There are no more lynchings of blacks, no more blocking of illegal immigrants, in fact we embrace them all, especially the radical muslims. The events you used no longer occur on minority races. However, there is a new suspect race in America. This race is watched continuously and monitored for its speech and thoughts, as the jews were in germany during wwII. It cannot complain about any other race or defend itself against those who express hate for them. Its own media covers up brutal and horrific crimes being committed against it by other races, just like Hitler’s media. Yes, this generation of the majority race is to be brutally slaughtered at the hands of the protected minority like the young white couple in Knoxville, Tennessee was earlier this year. This majority race’s members have successfully continued to make its own race suspect, weak, full of guilt and self hate to the extent that it is now defensless and accepts its own genocide.
The new enemy of America- any white christian of eurpoean descent. Never mind the hundreds of thousands of white christian descendants who fought against the hate, who battled for legislation to prevent hate- NO- its current generation must pay for everything wrong committed by european descendants in the past in this country. Your letter is a prime example of the daily, almost hourly reminders to all minority races why the majority must be hated and treated as disposable.
This majority race does not need stars as Jews did in nazi germany to identify it, nor will the media ever mention its victims.
Give your illegal immigrants a few more years. They already know how this country feels about its current majority race. It hates it. Soon, like black americans,illegal immigrants will be free to slaughter randomly any white person of this generation it chooses and no one will say a word.
CNN, the print media, ABC, NBC, CBS and its affiliates will kept silent and will remain silent on this slaughter just like the Nazi media kept silent about the holocaust that killed six million jews.
In other words, Mr Author, why are you complaining. The ones you complain about are already America’s enemy. You sir, and your immigrants have already won.
Illegal Aliens have been given amnesty 7 times now beginning in 1986! How many more times are they going to be given amnesty for breaking the laws before people get it through their heads? The amnesty idea is not working! It only encourages more millions to come annually. I have nothing against people of different cultures or colors! I was for civil rights for blacks when you got called names for being for it! But, it’s a simple undeniable truth…we can not take in the whole world without destroying ourselves in the end. At some point this is going to have to stop and we are going to have to start dealing with illegal immigrants in a rational manner. The reason most of them come to this country is for a job. There is only one way to deal with the problem. Place hefty fines and possible jail time on those employers who break the law and employ illegal’s. The laws are already there on the books, they just haven’t been enforced. That’s the only way the problem is going to stop. If they can’t find a job when they get here, they will stay home. But, American’s can only assimilate so many immigrants into our society! I don’t see it as being rascist to consider my country’s welfare first. It is pure and simple self-preservation. We can not take in the whole world without destroying our country. At some point, we are going to have to start dealing with illegal immigration. So we might as well do it now.
I don’t view illegals as the source of all this countries problems. They do hold down jobs that an ever increasing percentage of americans would do. The claim that illegals are more likely to push up wages rather than down is just stupid. Illegals are being taken advantage of by the haves of this country to the detriment of the legal have-nots. If the existing laws were enforced and the penalties were slightly stiffened against people and companies that employ illegals,then the problem would probably take care of itself.
Every human on earth should be afforded basic rights but those rights do not include being able to live and work anyplace on earth that you choose.
Roberto, if you sneaked into a party that someone was having for a freind or family member,and someone noticed and asked you to leave, would you demand that you be allowed to stay and start calling the hosts of the party bigots????
Nanoo, I repeat, do you really think that all those unemployed people will run out and pick tomatoes, prunes, apricots, apples, strawberrys, potatoes, and cotton (do they still pick cotton?) if those pesky brown folks were kept on their side of the border? Let’s say they get minimum wage BY DREX
Drex, if you had ANY concept of how capitalism works, what supply and demand is, you would know that they would NOT get minimum wage. The employers would either be forced to offer a wage that would attract American workers, OR they would mechanize. Obviously, they do not want to do this, so they find shills like Roberto Rodriguez who also does not want to pay his gardner, maid, and nanny a living wage, to scream racism. There is a rather simple maxim at work here. If a conservative is writing, for every time he calls his opponents “godless” “anti-American” or “communists”, you can be a little surer that he has no cogent argument to make. If a liberal/progressive degenerates into calling his opponents “fascists” “racists” or uses the word “genocide” or “lynching”, you can infer the same thing.
habanero,
You’re a disgrace to your nombre de guerra, pal.
Let me set you straight on a bit of history: the Spanish intermarried with the indigenous people. So did the French. The English were too “good” for that–they just killed asmany indigneous folks as they could. Although here in Latin America the indigenous folks are at the bottom of the social totem pole, they are alive–in numbers far in excess of indigenous folks in the US.
Not that it’s any of your business, but I believe I have posted on this site before that I am from the Mohawk Nation. And no, not 100%–but then you aren’t 100% anything either.
As for the poster whose great-great grandmother walked the Trail of Tears–there are several trails of tears, actually–not only the Cherokee, but the Navajo and the Nez Perce are among the most notable. It’s quite an emotional experience to follow those trails–I do one every four or five years or so–as the pain and suffering are still there in the air after all these years.
Powerslave: You seem to have missed the point–I was criticizing YOU–a racist and sexist–for appointing himself a representative of the working class.
I don’t vote in the US, and to tell the truth, I really do not care what happens to folks in the US. I know that sounds unfeeling–but you have accumulated so much negative karma that I see no point in tryig to save you from it. Elect whomever you want–you can see how great you did with GW Bush. Another one like him will wipe the US off the map–and everyone else in the world will heave a sigh of relief and go about their business.
There will be no change in the imigration system–it’s too convenient for the pols and what used to be called Big Business to continue blaming the victims (all of them).
Would there be an immigration controversy if immigrants were blue-eyed blondes?
ezeflyer,
If they were ILLEGAL immigrants, then yes there would be a controversy.
Illegal is a very relative term–laws can be changed.
Immoral–that’s a different kind of term and racist acts fall under it.
It has been my experience that RACISTS are usually the first people to play the race card… so far the only complaints I have heard about the illegal invaders have been legal and economic.
First, they broke the law by staying here, next they break the law by using false identification, they drive wages down for jobs AMERICANS WILL DO.
Everyone seems to claim there are only 10 or 12 million illegal invaders but several reliable sources place the number at well over 20 million.
How can our government hope to make any sane and reasonable decisions regarding the people in this country illegally if:
1. they don’t even know how many there are…
2. they don’t know where they are…
3. they can’t accurately guage how many are in jail or wanted for crimes…
4. they can’t even guess how many are employed using fake Social Security numbers or working for cash…
5. they can’t even guess what they are costing our taxpayers.
Are we paying thousands in education, medical bills, law enforcement and social services for each employed illegal?
Is it true that over a third are engaged in drugs and illegal activities? Is it true that 25% or more of the prisoners in our jails are illegals?
The obvious FIRST steps in solving our immigration problem is STOPPING THE FLOW… and then answering each of the above questions.
Then and only then can Congress make any reasonable decisions regarding allowing some of them to stay.
In your experience? And what might that experience consist of?
moonraven,
Since when is it immoral to uphold the law? Changes to the current law should never reward criminal behavior.
And stop with the name calling, it only shows that you don’t have any valid arguments. No one is a racist for wanting to enforce that immigrants come into this country via legal channels.
I find in these types of discussions, self-honesty is what’s most revealing. To see if you support unbridled immigration or really care for “brown people” ask yourself: “How much am I willing to sacrifice so they can have a better life?” The same can be asked for the Iraq war. People say they are for something only if doesn’t put them out much or cost them anything. Let someone else pay. Very revealing indeed.
lawabider: Do you think you are upholding the law to try to deprive me of my right to free speech? Hypocrite.
You are all having to do with much less if our species is to survive.
If you want to party on into extinction, that’s your choice–and in the US it is clearly a majority decision to do so, since the gini coefficient is fast approaching that of Mexico’s.
moonraven,
Please show me in my post where I am depriving YOU of your right to free speech? All I said was to stop with the name calling and try to come up with a rational argument for your side of the debate.
Please have a little more comprehension of the English language before you post again. After you call me a hypocrite, the rest of your post is nothing but a meaningless ramble.
Lew,
You’re right on the Statue of Liberty–kind of. Actually, the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France to celebrate America’s centennial. It was originally titled “Liberty Enlightening the World”, and had absolutely nothing to do with immigration. Rather, it celebrated America’s tradition of liberty. Emma Lazarus’ notorious poem was not only unauthorized, but was tacked on many years later by pro-immigration elites who didn’t want to lose their access to cheap labor.
Associating the Statue of Liberty with immigration was a major propaganda coup in support of the Ellis Island wave of immigration. Can you imagine the environmental catastrophe we’d be suffering today if the Ellis Island wave of immigration hadn’t been cut off in 1924? I don’t know of any figures on this matter, but I bet the US would make China look underpopulated had it not been stopped.
On this being a nation of immigrants, I would add the following to Randall Burns’ response: It would obviously be silly to refer to the Germans who invaded the Soviet Union in 1941 as immigrants. It would be silly because the word immigrant has a very specific meaning; an immigrant is one who comes to a country to assimilate into the pre-existing culture. And since the colonial generations made absolutely no pretense at assimilating into Indian culture, they weren’t immigrants. No, they were colonists. So, when you claim this is a nation of immigrants, you’re denying the very existence not only of the people who formed this country, but of their descendants as well. When you say this is a nation of immigrants, you are in effect denying the existence of almost one half of the American population.
Thank you, Brisbane. As I’m a non-interventionist myself, I wasn’t trying to bait you. I was curious about what incidents you would include and why. Best to you.
moonraven wrote:
‘Let me set you straight on a bit of history: the Spanish intermarried with the indigenous people. So did the French. The English were too “good” for that–they just killed as many indigneous folks as they could.’
Actually the situation is more complex than that. There were no reservations in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois or Missouri. Some families were given the choice of adopting European culture or loosing their lands-but even today there are prominent families in all those states with substantial native American ancestry.
There was also a real issue of disgruntled refugees from the British Isles adopting Native American culture. That was the sort of thing that really caused issues around the English-speaking settlers.
Remember, the “English” were the first folks from the British Isles to Settle in the Americas-but the Scots and Welsh followed soon after and settled most of the interior. They definitely did not identify with the English-and many didn’t speak English when they first got here(Daniel Boone’s parents are a prominent example). I don’t think the real story of what happened there is necessarily what you read in the books written by the short-term winners.
The relative degree of physical and cultural genocide by the major colonial players here hasn’t really been fully assessed IMHO. The event is so big, that we don’t really have perspective on it. The big issue was importation of various diseases-and most of that was non-intentional(I’m not excusing it, but accidental manslaughter is different than premeditated murder). Also, a lot of the more destructive practices, like importation of alcohol, had a similar effect when they were first brought into Europe.
What we really need to think in terms of here is world that works for a much larger portion of the population-and how to get there.
Anyone who thinks the Spanish intermarried and did not kill the Indians should go to the whitest three countries in the world and see for themselves…Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. No Indians. For the simple reason that they were slaughtered, and not by the English.
Whoever got the idea that this was about hate! Legal immigrants are great with all of us down here…they’re one of us.
“Illegal” means they are not citizens and don’t care to follow our laws or assimilate.
I’ve been an immigrant; did it legally. I vote, I pay taxes, and obey the laws, and read, write and speak English.
I see no point in giving Social Security, free housing, medical attention, welfare, education, insurance, and other privileges to non-citizens. Nor do I think they deserve to be at the head of the line on a path to citizenship.
This is right up there with letting Paris Hilton serve out her prison time at home. Some people are not supposed to be more equal than others in this democracy.
Let the employers adopt the necessary workers and let them provide for and be responsible for the workers they “need” until they become self-supporting citizens.
We have too many people on this water table anyway. and fewer people would mean we’d need fewer low wage workers to build their residences and fast food joints, etc., fewer case workers, etc.
I see, you only hate the illegal immigrants–not the legal ones.
Pull the other one.
Lawabider: Your sleazy tactic of trying to say that my arguments are not rational and that I don’t speak English do not square very well with my having a PhD in English (University of Massachusetts), nor my being a professor of writing, nor a bylined journalist (Albuquerque Journal) for many years when I still lived in the US. Find another strategy for pushing your racist prattle.
Powerslave: Show me where I indicated that native people were not killed by the Spanish. Having trouble making your quota of posts today, apparently. How much are you paid for each one? (Do you pay income taxes on that money?)
moonraven,
You claim that I am a racist, but you have failed to back up that claim. Please explain how wanting the government to enforce the laws makes one a racist. The fact that you continue to engage in name calling shows that you aren’t a rational thinker and can’t speak to the merits of your arguments.
I never said that you couldn’t “speak” English, I said you didn’t comprehend it. Try grabbing a dictionary of your shelf professor and then learn to communicate coherently.
“Would there be an immigration controversy if immigrants were blue-eyed blondes?”
I wonder about that myself. Or rather would those for/against would change their respective views? Would Hispanics be all for these hypothetical Europeans coming here? Would Pat Buchanan and all the right-wing websites like vdare and amren be for closing the door?
I still wouldn’t want them here. Give the work to people who are already here and pay ‘em well. It’s nothing personal. I don’t think Mexicans are bad people trying to undermine the U.S. in any way. I’m sure that most of them are decent and hard-working. I think reconquista is a fraud. They just want to work here because they feel there’s nothing for them back home.
There’s racism on both sides of the issue. We all KNOW why Pat Buchanan doesn’t want Mexicans here. But at times, I think that some Hispanics are all for porous borders down south simply because well, they’re the same ethnicity as they are. They figure that the more latinos there are, the more political clout they’ll have. And let’s face it, there are those who want to see whitey displaced. There seems to be this notion with some progressives that the less white America becomes, the better it’ll be, as if non-whites are naturally and inherently progressive. People on the left and right have turned this into a war of culture and race, when it’s really an assault on working people and poor people. We’re squabbling with one another while the elites eat caviar. Like I said in another thread, we’re all rednecks and wetbacks to them.
On the other hand, if you really want to get down to it, none of us should be here aside from the Native Americans. Hell, I’ll go back to Poland or Ireland or Germany or Hungary depending on what dominates my heritage being that I’m a mongrel. Or maybe I’ll spend a few months in Belfast, a few in Warsaw, maybe I can stay in Wacken over the summer so I can see the Open Air Festival…
ezeflyer wrote
‘Would there be an immigration controversy if immigrants were blue-eyed blondes?’
That assumes that blue-eyed blondes are somehow enormously influential somehow-which I think is questionable. Hollywood has some strange obsession with blonde women-I suspect they’d love more immigration if it were blonde, young and female.
Anyhow, if you look historically, the first major opposition to immigration was at a time with the major sources of immigration were Ireland and Catholic parts of the German speaking world-areas that have quite a few blondes per capita(maybe even more than many parts of Britain).
The source of the conflict was largely religious in nature.
lawabider,
I didn´t see any arguments from YOU. And I do not need to build a discourse from a dictionary.
The basic dynamic of the immigration issue is racist/ethnicist–which is obvious, and is not new. Think about the ethnicist insults thrown at the Italian and Polish immigrants in the last century: wops, dagos, the Polish joke craze. Then came the ubiquitously popular epithets: spics, greasers, beaners.
Anyone who says this is only about money is either lying, or a damn fool, as the majority of Mexicans working in the US are NOT taking jobs away from white US citizens–unless you folks have suddenly decided that your employment goals are to pick grapes and tomatoes, hand out plastic food at Taco Bell, clean other people´s houses and look after their children.
iwarrior wrote:
‘none of us should be here aside from the Native Americans’
The issue is trickier than that. Folks of Native American descent differ considerably on the attitudes on immigration(and every major ethnic group has political leadership that identifies more with immigration than the rank and file). You certainly have Native Americans that identify strongly with brown Mexicans. That is is far from a universal opinion-and it isn’t clear to me what the opinion might be if some of these tribal groups were in a more secure position.
I tend to think of the US has having served a function of allowing some European ethnic groups that were seriously threatened with extermination a route to survival(there are some that have more of their nationality in the US/Canada than in their original homelands). Now, when a group migrates to a new land in the middle of an event like the Highlands clearances, I wouldn’t necessarily expect them to be on their best behavior.
I also don’t think that a simple return to Europe is the solution for many of us that are of mixed ancestry. What we need to look for is policies that would be seen by whites, blacks, Native Americans and Asians are really advancing their interests, on their terms.
One compelling vision in that area is the idea of space settlement advanced by Princeton’s Gerard O’Neill. Frankly that approach is at least more practical-and less destructive- than fighting lots of wars in the middle east over oil.
A new frontier without the moral stains of slavery and Native American genocide would I think have a very positive effect on humanity-even if the numbers involved were rather small at first.
“Anyone who says this is only about money is either lying, or a damn fool, as the majority of Mexicans working in the US are NOT taking jobs away from white US citizens–”
I must be a liar or a damn fool then, because to me it is about money. There are a lot of unemployed people in our country of all races, black, white, you name it. People who were already born here. Those people deserve jobs at a fair livable wage.
“unless you folks have suddenly decided that your employment goals are to pick grapes and tomatoes, hand out plastic food at Taco Bell, clean other people´s houses and look after their children.”
I think a lot of people would do those jobs if they were paid well to do them. Why should anyone aspire to come here simply to perform work like that at minimum wage? They shouldn’t have to come here just to make a little more money. I don’t want to see people come here to be an underclass, but apparently, that’s what a lot of people seem to want, from Latino activists to rich WASPS.
I was unemployed for 18 months. I would have swept floors for 10 bucks an hour. It’s not like I haven’t done it before. Worked in fast food too. Got 14 stitches between two fingers trying to open a can of cheese while someone was screaming at me. I was paid 4.75 an hour for that. Of course I could’ve joined the union. That would have bumped me up to about 7.
When I was 27, I finally got a job that paid 11 bucks an hour. Before that, the most I ever made per hour was about 7.75/hour. But of course I paid the price for that. I’d work 10 days in a row without a day off, bouncing around on various shifts, working early in the morning, then late at night, then early in the morning again. Our boss who made about 50G a year to basically do next to nothing couldn’t be bothered to make a workable, reasonable schedule. She had meetings to attend. Besides, they didn’t want to hire more people anyway. That would have cut into the salaries of our hospital’s 20 VP’s.
And then, wham! I got laid off. We got bought out by a larger health system, and they pretty much dumped everyone.
But that’s all my fault. I should have finished college. Worked harder, been more disciplined, blah, blah, blah. Plus I’m white and male, everything’s supposed to be easier for me since I am told that I have some sort of “power” over anyone else.
Shame on me. I’m being punished for something.
No, it’s about economics. Or at least it should be. Pat Buchanan doesn’t anyone but whites coming here. Mr. Rodriguez just wants more Hispanics here. Pat would be falling all over himself to bring Czechs here. Roberto’d be having a fit.
It’s almost hilarious really. Everyone’s just looking out for their own interests. I just want everyone who was born here and has citizenship to have a decent job. Same with everyone abroad.
“I also don’t think that a simple return to Europe is the solution for many of us that are of mixed ancestry. What we need to look for is policies that would be seen by whites, blacks, Native Americans and Asians are really advancing their interests, on their terms.
One compelling vision in that area is the idea of space settlement advanced by Princeton’s Gerard O’Neill. Frankly that approach is at least more practical-and less destructive- than fighting lots of wars in the middle east over oil.
A new frontier without the moral stains of slavery and Native American genocide would I think have a very positive effect on humanity-even if the numbers involved were rather small at first.”
I was only being half-serious about everyone (white, black, Asian)going “back home”. But this country has so much baggage attached to it, such a sordid history. I often think that it’s almost impossible to totally repair things. I know that we’re a young nation. Maybe 1000 years from now (if Earth is still livable), we’ll have put all this behind us, but can we wait that long?
I mean, I’m almost at a point in my life, where I feel that everyone has a legit reason to resent one another. How do we heal those wounds? We just keep scratching at them.
Space settlement? You’re right in that it’s compelling. But plausible and practical? I really don’t know.
iwarrior: You just do not get it. Compared to the MAJORITY of Mexicans crossing the border, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
Minimum wage varies slightly from one region of Mexico to another, but in no region is it more than 175 dollars a month. In most cases we are talking about a work week of 48 hours, but even at 40 hours a week that is only slightly more than 1 dollar per hour! And iin the poorest areas of the country, there are simply NO JOBS.
So don´t tell us how you would deign to sweep floor for 10 bucks an hour. You are just making a fool of yourself.
“iwarrior: You just do not get it. Compared to the MAJORITY of Mexicans crossing the border, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.”
I’m not saying I have it rougher than they do. I feel for them too. I’m not one to beat up on any of them. If things weren’t so bad where they are, they wouldn’t be risking it all just to come here. I don’t think that should be.
“Minimum wage varies slightly from one region of Mexico to another, but in no region is it more than 175 dollars a month. In most cases we are talking about a work week of 48 hours, but even at 40 hours a week that is only slightly more than 1 dollar per hour! And iin the poorest areas of the country, there are simply NO JOBS.”
But why can’t the people of Mexico fight for fairer wages where they are? If all of their discontented just leave, doesn’t that benefit their oligarchy? Doesn’t that benefit ours? I’m not letting America off the hook either. We cause that poverty and enable Mexico’s powerful.
“So don´t tell us how you would deign to sweep floor for 10 bucks an hour. You are just making a fool of yourself.”
Well, then I am a fool. I don’t believe that I’m “too good” for work such as that. When you’re out of work, you’ll do anything legal to make a living.
I know janitorial jobs in the US don’t usually pay that much. That’s my point. I support the idea of a living wage for legalized citizens. Someone sweeping floors SHOULD make at least 10 dollars an hour. I don’t think we should just let people come in from all over to do those jobs if there are people already here who would do those jobs if they were guaranteed a living wage. We need to take care of our own first, and we’re doing a pretty lousy job of that. So how can we take in everyone else?
Yes, the US causes poverty in Mexico, iwarrior, but it does so in collusion with the Mexican poltical/financial elite. The oligarchy throughout Latin America has always been vendepartrias–because they live in the illusion that they are really First World white or wannabe white people, they have no sense of their countries as anything but resources to be exploited and the profits put into THEIR pockets.
Back when he was younger and a leftist, Peruvian (now with Spanish citizenship because he wants more than the illusion of being First World) writer Mario Vargas LLosa described Mexico as The Perfect Dictatorship (presidents picking their successors and fixed elections). Some folks thought that cycle had been broken when Fox of the PAN party was elected in 2000–but again, it was a deal made to apparent alternation in the power, and in 2006 the traditional state-controlled election was forced on the country.
People do fight for higher wages in Mexico. Do alittle research before shooting off your keyboard on the social movement in Oaxaca–now more than a year being active, 70 of its members in jail on fabricated charges, 30 people “disappeared” and a number of folks murdered, including a US journalist last October. That started from a strike by public school teachers who would like a living wage. The current dictatorial government is still keeping the governor responsible for absconding with teachers’ salaries, repression and murder in the power.
The problem was that the Mexican Revolution (1910-1920) was truncated when Emiliano Zapata was assassinated in 1919.
moonraven wrote:
“iwarrior: You just do not get it. Compared to the MAJORITY of Mexicans crossing the border, you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth.”
Moonraven: How many illegal aliens have you worked with? I did on construction jobs in Chicago–and later on in silicon valley(the Illegal aliens in IT were more rare, but you would run into them sometimes-the founder of Borland started out as one).
Many of the folks coming from Mexico aren’t really the poorest of the poor there by any means. The US has advantages as disadvantages. If you are a white suburban kid with no gang connections in prison, the US is living hell(particularly if you have the misfortune to have a slight build and blonde hair). If you can make it in Hollywood or Wall Street, the US can be paradise.
There really are people that for quite understandable reasons prefer the lifestyle in other countries. It depends a lot on what you value. If you value happy people-Nigeria is actually a pretty nice place. The USA does have substantial material wealth-but being poor in the USA is worse in many respects than in many other countries.
The material wealth for which the US is famed, is gradually eroding-particularly for the middle class. There are some specific types of people that can still make it rich in the US in ways they simply can’t elsewhere. However, many of us look at people much like ourselves in other countries-and wonder why the US is going the route it is. If someone doesn’t have hope in the direction they see their country going, morally blugeoning them isn’t really going to do much.
US citizenship still has substantial economic value-but that value is being eroded rather quickly and there isn’t any real coherent program emerging anywhere on the political mainstream that might protect the value of that citizenship.
Mexico isn’t a poor country by world standards-it is more a middle class one-with huge gaps between the rich and poor there. Socially, Mexico may be in better shape than the US.
Just consider who you are talking to a bit-and what their perspective might be.
“Yes, the US causes poverty in Mexico, iwarrior, but it does so in collusion with the Mexican poltical/financial elite. The oligarchy throughout Latin America has always been vendepartrias–because they live in the illusion that they are really First World white or wannabe white people, they have no sense of their countries as anything but resources to be exploited and the profits put into THEIR pockets.
Back when he was younger and a leftist, Peruvian (now with Spanish citizenship because he wants more than the illusion of being First World) writer Mario Vargas LLosa described Mexico as The Perfect Dictatorship (presidents picking their successors and fixed elections). Some folks thought that cycle had been broken when Fox of the PAN party was elected in 2000–but again, it was a deal made to apparent alternation in the power, and in 2006 the traditional state-controlled election was forced on the country.
People do fight for higher wages in Mexico. Do alittle research before shooting off your keyboard on the social movement in Oaxaca–now more than a year being active, 70 of its members in jail on fabricated charges, 30 people “disappeared” and a number of folks murdered, including a US journalist last October. That started from a strike by public school teachers who would like a living wage. The current dictatorial government is still keeping the governor responsible for absconding with teachers’ salaries, repression and murder in the power.
The problem was that the Mexican Revolution (1910-1920) was truncated when Emiliano Zapata was assassinated in 1919.”
I’m not saying that there aren’t people who are fighting the good fight down there, I’m sure there are, but what happens if all of the discontented just come here and work? Doesn’t that just enable the oligarchy? Do we just keep taking people until there’s no one left?
Randall-But why is it that we keep hearing that all of these people coming over here are impoverished? And why would they take such a risk if they weren’t so bad off? From what we see and hear, most of them are working in low-wage jobs. And when they come here, they don’t seem to be faring too well. I don’t want poor people to come here thinking they are going to escape poverty, only to just end up poor anyway, maybe not as poor as they were but still poor. Will totally opening the borders help end poverty or just perpetuate it?
I would love to know what a “vendepartria” is. In Oaxaca, the PRD just decided that they will not go into alliance with the APPO in the upcoming state elections, because to do so would be electoral suicide. So much for APPO’s popular support.
POWERSLAVE:
When you have lived in Oaxaca for ten years–call me. Would love to hear your informed opinion. If I am still alive….
Randall–Apparently you are not aware that I have been living for nearly 15 years in rural Mexico. In the livestock association which I helped form, approximately 50 percent of the members have spent some time in the US working “illegally”. My campesino theater group needs a complete overhaul of members as so many of the group are now living and working “illegally” in the US.
Great to hear from all the “experts” on Mexican immigration….