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TechnoratiThe New State Solution
The collapse of the Palestinian Authority, the result of Israel's 42-year refusal to implement a two-state solution, leaves the Palestinians no option but to unilaterally declare an independent state. Israel acted unilaterally when it announced independence in 1948. It is the Palestinians' turn. It worked in Kosovo. It worked in Georgia. And it will work in Palestine. There are 192 member states in the United Nations and as many as 150 would recognize the state of Palestine, creating a diplomatic nightmare for Israel and its lonely ally the United States. Israel will face worldwide censure if it attempts to crush the independent state by force and very likely be subjected to the kind of divestment campaigns and boycotts that brought down the apartheid government of South Africa.
The two-state solution, long held up as the way out of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, flickered and died with Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin. No Israeli leader since, including Ehud Barack, has shown any interest in its implementation. Israeli governments have instead cynically used the promise of negotiations as a cover to steadily expand settlements, evict Palestinians from their homes, carry out egregious acts of violence and repression against Palestinians and steal huge swathes of the West Bank, including most of the aquifers.
The death of the two-state solution is not news to those of us who have spent years in the Middle East. What is news is the public acknowledgement by the Palestinian leadership. Mahmoud Abbas, the compliant and discredited president of the Palestinian Authority, who has announced he will not run for another term, has uncharacteristically blasted Israel for deceiving the Palestinians. The chief Palestinian negotiator, Saeb Erekat, who says that the effort to negotiate a solution to the conflict with Israel is dead, has called on Palestinians to declare statehood.
The disarray within the Palestinian Authority has led to the cancellation of the Palestinian elections in January, although the elections were already in jeopardy. The militant group Hamas, which took over Gaza in 2007 after thwarting a coup attempt led by Abbas' Fatah party, said it would not allow the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza to vote.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is counting on the Obama administration to thwart a declaration of Palestinian independence, will have difficulty finding a Palestinian stooge as complaint as Abbas. Abbas' time in office has been marked by repeated and humiliating concessions to Israel, including deferring, at Israel's request, the vote at the United Nations on the Goldstone report, which documented human rights abuses during Israel's offensive in Gaza last December and January. Israel has shown its appreciation by ignoring Abbas' protests for a halt on settlements and dismissing his calls for negotiations. It is hard to imagine any Palestinian leader, at least one with a shred of credibility, agreeing to take Abbas' place. The only alternative left to most Palestinians, unless an independent state is declared, will be endless war and an embrace of Islamic extremism.
A declaration of independence, based on the 1967 demarcation lines between Israel and Palestinian territory, should cover East Jerusalem among other areas and the several hundred thousand Jewish settlers living in settlements in the West Bank. These Israeli settlers would instantly become citizens in the new country, replicating the experience of many Palestinians who suddenly found themselves counted as Israelis in 1948.
"When he declares independence, Abbas should call upon the Jews living in the state of Palestine to preserve the peace and to do their part in building up the new country as full and equal citizens, enjoying fair representation in all of its institutions," Yossi Sarid, who supports the independence movement, wrote in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz. "David Ben-Gurion would not have been upset by such a pretty act of plagiarism from his Declaration of Independence."
The Israelis have orchestrated acute misery and poverty in the Palestinian territories over the past two decades in an effort to subdue and ethnically cleanse the captive population. They have reduced Palestinians, many of whom now live on less than $2 a day, to a subsistence level. They have created squalid, lawless and impoverished ghettos in the West Bank and Gaza. Israeli soldiers, who ring these ghettos, have the ability to instantly shut off food, medicine and goods to perpetuate the misery. Israel, when the Palestinians grow restive, drops 1,000-pound iron fragmentation bombs and artillery shells-as they did a year ago in Gaza-on the concrete hovels that pack neighborhoods. The Israeli objective is to turn the Palestinian territories into a hell on earth. This policy has, however, swollen the ranks of radical Islamists in the occupied territories and throughout the Middle East.
The refusal by the Obama administration and nearly every member of the U.S. Congress to defend the rule of law and basic human rights for the Palestinians exposes our hypocrisy. It also perpetuates the absurd pretence that it is Israel, not the Palestinians, whose security and dignity are being threatened. The F-16 jet fighters, the Apache attack helicopters, the 250-pound "smart" GBU-39 bombs used on Palestinian civilians are part of the annual $2.4 billion in military aid the United States gives to Israel. Palestinians are slaughtered with American-made weapons provided to Israel with taxpayer dollars. Israel, an international pariah, would be unable to carry out these atrocities without our financial and moral support. Mix this toxic brew with the illegal wars we wage in Iraq and Afghanistan and the United States becomes a satanic force in the eyes of many Muslims.
Abbas, in a speech delivered a few days ago on the fifth anniversary of Yasser Arafat's death, announced that the Palestinians would not return to negotiations with Israel without a full halt to settlement building, "including the natural growth"-a term Israel uses to justify construction on the basis of natural population growth in settlements.
"They are putting obstacles in its way," he said of promised negotiation. "They are trying to remove this concept. What do they want?"
The anniversary of Arafat's death is a bitter reminder to many Palestinians that Israel can never be trusted. It is widely believed among Palestinians, as well as Israeli peace activists such as Uri Avnery, that Arafat was poisoned by the Israelis, something Israeli officials deny. Arafat became gravely ill in 2004 as Israeli forces besieged his Ramallah headquarters. He was eventually flown to France for treatment and died at Percy military hospital outside of Paris on Nov. 11, 2004. The French, abiding by an agreement with the Israelis, did not release Arafat's medical records.
"Each expert we consulted explained that even a simple poison produced by an average scientist would be difficult to identify by the most experienced scientists," said Arafat's nephew Nasser al-Kidwa. "I can't tell for sure that he was murdered by the Israelis. I can't refute that hypothesis because doctors couldn't refute it."
The suspicions around the death of Arafat replicate the feelings of most Palestinians around the death of the two-state solution. Each, in the eyes of Palestinians, was deliberately murdered. The Israelis have ensured that from now on the Palestinians will fall or rise on their own.
103 Comments so far
Show AllEND THE OCCUPATION!
I wish "Not Allan" (who writes some great posts) would develop his theory a little more so I can follow him. I agree with Poet. What do the Palestinians have to loose? Will "IsNotReal" strafe them with F-16's? Whoops I forgot. They already did that. Will they pound the Palestinian concentration camps with abandon? I forgot: they already did that. Will they cut off medical aid and humanitarian supplies? Silly me. They already did that too.
I love reading Chris Hedges stuff, but this declaration of independence seems like a whole lot of wishful thinking without the firepower to back it up. Perhaps if we all boycotted McDuck's FatFood and BigBuck's Coffee the financial message to the right International bankers would get through?
Gee, I hope I don't get censored like Native Son did.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
[I wish "Not Allan" (who writes some great posts) would develop his theory a little more so I can follow him.]
Hey,thanks. In regard to the Hedges article, what is the essence of the article? Note that Hedges doesn't have to state the essence, it's even better if he assumes it, and that's what he does. The essence of the article is that Palestine needs to be divided into a Jewish state and a Palestinian state. He doesn't say that, it would be too stark, to obviously criminal. Rather, he assumes that we all agree that Palestine should be divided. Then he goes about describing the insurmountable difficulties that the Palestinians have had it obtaining that worthy goal. So, he also assumes the goal of the Palestinians to divide Palestine into two states. What kind of idiot is Hedges? Hedges commiserates with them in their failure to attain this ideal settlement. But then, he has a bright idea ! They can just declare victory, declare a state, demand that the world recognize the division of Palestine into two countries. Every assumption Hedges makes advances the Zionist agenda, every bright idea he has advances the Zionist agenda. That agenda - divide Palestine, and give the lion's share to the Zionists.
That's my analysis of this article, and every article Hedges writes on the subject.
For more local context, to get an idea of the real state of affairs in Israel, the best place to start is a quote from, none other that TJ - "It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself." Are there any possible 'errors' in Israel's history that are protected by law, with people in jail today for challenging? ???
When will the live Americans start to declare independence from the dead USA?
You see, the problem is not in Israel/Palestine.
Face it.
Correct.
The problem which subsumes and encapsulates the localized problem of Israel/Palestine is the globalized problem of the United States itself.
As far as the United States goes, it is already an 'ancien régime.' As Marx said about the Germany of his time it "only imagines that it still believes in itself."
America it is a dead state, a 'living anachronism, only that it continues to ask the world to share in its fantasies.' (Marx)
"The last phase of world historical form is its comedy." –(Karl Marx, "A Contribution to the Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right," (Colleti, Penquin).
A "clown" state, steeped in blood, acting out its own farce before the laughter must end.
This 'zombie' like stasis is even becoming palpable to many Americans, who know and feel the truth, despite continuing to indulge the fantasy. So much so, one can almost cut it with a knife.
–(Jill Bains)
jill Bains----hysterical I love it
Israel will never let the Palestinians declare statehood.
They will take over the West Bank.
The U.S. will support any efforts by Israel to retain it's occupation.
The Security council will wipe out any General Assembly majority vote.
Not that this isn't a brave move-and obviously justified.
But without the United States full backing-it will never go down !
everything barry greene says is true. the coming reckoning for the murdering zionists will shake the Israeli thugs to their core
"The refusal by the Obama administration and nearly every member of the U.S. Congress to defend the rule of law and basic human rights for the Palestinians exposes our hypocrisy."--Hedges
Oh noooo! We're exposed as hypocrites?! Will we ever live it down? Think of the shame! The whole world knows we're hypocrites!
. . . If only this carried any moral freight these days. It's like Sarah Palin being caught out as a flagrant liar. As if anyone expects anything else.
"USA EXPOSED AS HYPOCRITES" Try exposed as CORRUPT, GREEDY, GENOCIDE LOVING, TORTURERS.The Palestine misery ,is turning the corner.CAST LEAD atrocities took the worlds' onlookers to a new level.Many around the world knew very little of their history or even cared.ISRAELS'ZIONISTS/ SUPER POWER/with their man, ASS LICKING ABBAS and DEAD ARAFAT THE PERV ("murdered",that is one theory,his penchant for little boys and beyond makes it more likely that he had aids) combined with the USA coup,had it made in the shade. President (mossad and Zionist )RAHM IMMANUAL and his Zionist entourage in the white house and Pentagon, are under scrutiny,big time.First END THE OCCUPATION.ISRAEL ALREADY HAS HAD A FINANCIAL SETBACK since cast lead.The chosen people are no longer walking on water,more like walking on thin ice.I like Chris Hedges but please stop skirting around the truth.
Go, palestine, Go!!!
I'll publicly support and cheer on any move which will see the rightful, secure and permanent establishment of a Palestinian State, the cutting down to size of this bastard, evil monstrosity called Israel, and the humiliation and withdrawal of the U.S. from ANY support of Israel that is not rendered to Palestine and a shitload of other, deserving states.
I am not opposed to Jews, or the existence of Israel - got nothing against them, except the Nazi nature of their attitude, assault and apartheid toward Palestine - so anyone proposing the standard, childish charge of anti-semitism for honest and proper criticism of the aptly-described monstrosity of Israel can fuck right off.
I use my real name here for the simple reason that I proudly support Palestine and proudly piss on Israel and the U.S. for their hateful policies. While some may believe that one criticizes Israel and generally talks like this at one's peril, and one may not get the invite into any number of clubs, find one's credit destroyed and one's dog strung up from the bathroom shower rail, I answer: shove your invitations and your credit and let's see the peril. And if you fuck with my dog, good luck finding a hiding place.
I for one have had it up to the eyeteeth with this Israeli obscenity. There IS a new world order coming, and it sure as shit isn't the one that that evil fuck Kissinger, the Bushes and Cheneys and Rockefellers, et. al., fawn over. It will not include this goddamn present criminal state of Israel, or its supporters. These assholes are in for one hell of a shock.
"Mix this toxic brew with the illegal wars we wage in Iraq and Afghanistan and the United States becomes a satanic force in the eyes of many Muslims."
For whatever it's worth, it's not just the Muslims who feel that way.
As for Israhell, they're a self-fullfilling prophecy. The world can only take so much of their paranoia, their self-victimization and self-righteouness and only for so long. And as Ché Guevara said “esta gran humanidad ha dicho ¡basta! y a hechado a andar.”
An excellent posting.
Internationalist perspectives and realities are either anathema to most Americans, or just something they cannot understand, as they have had no exposure to.
This includes many of its finest inhabitants, such as many of those good folk who inhabit this site. Liberals? Progressives? Greens? Left Democrats? Where else can rightists claim to be anything else but in America? The utter unconsciousness seems irreparable.
Either way, it cannot be explained to them, as they remain willfully 'separate.' Americans are not really a part of the larger world, or the larger humanity which is imperative they must victimize to be true to themselves.
But then, of course, things will change in the 'next election' with better electoral candidates to vote for!
Everything begins and ends with America.
Significantly, it must end there before anything can ever begin elsewhere for the greater human project. Millions, upon millions of deaths later, of course!–(Jill Bains)
If Palestinians declared statehood, one might wonder what other nations would recognize it...and what borders (altho I believe Hedges is suggesting pre-67 war borders).
-30-
"A declaration of independence, based on the 1967 demarcation lines between Israel and Palestinian territory, should cover East Jerusalem among other areas and the several hundred thousand Jewish settlers living in settlements in the West Bank."
Sounds like post-67 war to me, else he would refer to the 1948 borders.
Regarding the article: Amen, CH.
Quality article by Hedges as ususal.
Of course the main obstacle to a fair, legal and just solution is the US Empire. It is not in the interests of the folks who run the Empire to have a solution.
Palestinians, Arabs, Iranians, Afghans, so-called Al-Quaeda and Muslims in general are the new Other, to be feared and hated. Part of the New Politics of Fear. This sort of politics of fear works like a charm to mobilize political support. It has worked for centuries and still works like a charm.
Very cynically speaking, the blatant injustices done to Palestinians create a huge number of legitimate greivances against Israel and the US Empire. Ignoring those grievances creates a backlash in the Islamic world that fits right into the the racist narrative of the Other.
"They" are not like us. "They" are not rational human beings. "They" are our enemy. They are crazed terrorists who hate America and hate Israel for no reason whatsoever.
For these and other reasons, the Empire shall not support any genuine or just solution. When the Empire bankrupts itself and declines further, we can then look for changes.
You say: "They are crazed terroists who hate America and hate Israel for no reason whatsoever."
But President Bush said they hate us for our freedom...
Bush did enjoy his fantasies!
Nothing has changed, Obama is now the War Criminal in Chief. He is just more eloquent and sophisticated
Your cinicallity is the reality, and your conclusion precise.
Unilaterally declaring independence would change the game with unknown consequences. A few musings: As a "state", Palestine would be brought under the protection of the UN Charter far more than now, and aggression by Israel would the become the direct business--one that couldn't be ignored--of the UNSC, an outcome Hedges doesn't mention. Palestine would also be able to formally enter into defense and trade alliances with other countries. I suspect many refugees will return and political pressure will rise within Jordan to unify with Palestine. There will be conflict, but there is conflict already; by declaring independence, Palestine gains some tools and assets it currently lacks to its detriment.
And we all know how protective that UN charter can be!
This is a brilliant move. this would not have worked many years ago because Israel's propaganda machine had the world brainwashed and silenced. Now that Israel's reputation is tarnished, this has a very good chance of succeeding.
It's not just the Palestinians who suffer but the good Jews sympathetic to them and unbiased who are also made to suffer. Employment for peace loving Jews is just as difficult for them and with improvements in software engineering and database technologies such as mining, you can count on the zionists to misuse that technology for discrimination purposes, from employers to political leaders. Also left out of the equation are the moderate Muslims who want to be themselves and don't care to be tied to all this Sharia Law bs. Neither Likud nor Hamas are giving these people any respect. As much as Arafat was a famous guy, he's long gone and outdated as well as Hamas and Likud. There needs to be a third party in Israel to moderate all this and be more inclusive rather than sounding extremist exclusive.
maxpayne,with all due respect,'there needs to be a third party'blah blah blah.Get a clue.That is what the liars/ Superpower Israel/USA are famous for "to moderate all this",by dropping white phosporous,demes, depleted uranium on an unarmed concentration camp of 1.5 million people and killing thousands,especially children,leaving 22,000 buildings in rubble and blocking medical help,including doctors and blocking food and water and killing EVERY animal in the GAZA ZOO including a pregnant camel and she struggled for two hours to live and that is the tip of the iceberg!
if you live in a room full of vipers and therefore find it hard to sleep at night,first cause you sure as hail don't trust these vipers, I think you are not going to go for the third party moderation theory, unless your brain is addled. Get the fucking vipers out now. END THE OCCUPATION NOW!
Since Hamas strictly held to a self imposed ceasefire for one year prior and during the very fair election they won and even held to a ceasefire as isreal executed and kidnapped Hamas's newly elected ministers they must be accept as viable, valid and able to be peaceful rulers of Palestine.
I would like to know of any other militant organization that was so sincere in wishing for peace that they refused to retaliate even as their representatives in government were being assassinated.
I sure wish there was a non-militant organization for these poor souls but I could see where they had to resort to Hamas for basic defense when all else failed. The problem with Hamas is that organization too has racked up a lot of bad history much like Likud and its similar "parties" that Hamas has lost too much credibility to be taken seriously as a peace partner. There needs to be a new peace independent organization that can include moderate Muslims and peace loving Jews and Christians. Otherwise, Likud wins.
Exhibit "A" in the endless and obscene pantheon of liberal gibberish.
–(Jill Bains)
I don't understand. What's wrong with being liberal and what is it that I said that is actually gibberish?
Liberalism– such as yours– is objectively a right wing construct as are most appeals to moderation when dealing with issues such as Israel.
It is not something that can be explained or argued. I could be sarcastic and say that if you have to ask, you will never know. You have to answer to those questions for yourself.
Hamas should be supported unequivocally. There are no alternatives.
If anything Hamas bent over backward to appease the terror state and still the Gaza massacre was imminent.
I'm sorry if I reflexively sounded so harsh with you.
–(Jill Bains)
Just because I sympathize both sides doesn't make me right wing. Do you know who really funds Hamas? Hamas has been a hero to some but are you trying to tell me that only the same militarist organization that wants everything its way or no way and play violent with anyone in their clan who is moderate or secular should be the only hope for all Palestinians? Think about it. I don't recall Hamas bending backwards although I don't blame them for trying to defend their own Palestinians at critical moments. Hamas has already tarnished its own name. We need peaceful independent groups, not militaristic ones.
"We need peaceful independent groups..." –(maxpayne)
Sure, so they can continue to 'piss into the wind' or act as compliant prostitutes for the Israeli terror state.
Barely masked beneath your bilious cant and phony concerns for the Palestinians is a smarmy Zionist apologia.
Just come clean and stop the bull. No one wants to waste their time with your fake sympathies and fraudulent concern for the Palestinian people.
There are no 'two sides' here. You can't 'split the difference' without appearing as a moral leper or an intellectual cipher.
Perhaps it would be easier to see you as hopelessly confused, or simply a cynical liar and have done with it?
(Jill Bains)
WELL SAID JILL BAINS!
[It's not just the Palestinians who suffer but the good Jews sympathetic to them and unbiased who are also made to suffer.]
Every Israeli government has expanded the settlements, indicating their contempt for the Palestinians and their desire to dominate the entire region.
[There needs to be a third party in Israel to moderate all this and be more inclusive rather than sounding extremist exclusive.]
There needs to be a second party as far as policy vis a vis Palestine is concerned. The idea of a divided Jewry on the fundamental issue of Israeli expansion is a complete illusion.
On the one hand, you acknowledge that the Israeli government is the one at fault but then you blame all Jews and fail to acknowledge the internal divisions. I have met Jews on both sides of this so this is not an illusion. You're right that all parties in Israel are currently one party of different names.
[you blame all Jews and fail to acknowledge the internal divisions.]
I think that the number of Jews that favor the one-state solution is minimal. So there are a few fringe elements, like Jews Against Zionism, and Ilan Pappe, who oppose apartheid Israel, but that's about it, as far as I know. More common are the Zionist groups masquerading as anti-Zionists, like Tikkun, and the Zionist spokespersons, like Chomsky, Zinn, Greenwald, et. al., masquerading as non-Zionists.
To get a good idea, I think, of where the US Jews are on the subject, you can check the wiki entry for Dabru Emet, and then read the Dabru Emet statement. From my perspective, it's a howler, e.g. "God's revealed word guides Israel to a life of righteousness;".
If the Palestinians do a unilateral proclamation of a state and attempt to claim the pre-1967 borders: the only way that will happen is by force.
IF there was not a coup and IF we are really NOT United states of Israel,IF the real president is not Mossad/Zionist Rahm Immanual( It would seem by the actions of the millionaires old boys club, CONGRESS some doubt has been cast on the non coup theory)Then a mere stroke of a pen by the BIG BULLIES TOWARDS THE LITTLE BULLIES would change the history of Palestine.ISRAEL has 300 NUKES give or take,USA has either 3,000 or 30,000 NUKES? My brain doesn't want to remember.IRAN AND NORTH KOREA ARE HARPED ON about being the Nuke bad boys .Precious Israel is never mentioned .So was there a coup or was there a coup?
Correct.
The rule of force in history mandates an imposed solution; not one that can be brokered through 'negotiations' or 'localized' by those responsible for the catastrophe.
This holds true as well for actions unilaterally declared by the victims of the Israel-American state terror.
These fanciful hopes are doomed to remain symbolic at best, if not cynical fantasies. It is not even worth discussing when one knows in advance Israel would never permit this.
The imposed solution against Israel: There would be no other way to redress the overwhelming grievances of the Palestinian people and to ensure justice, both economic or political to a brutally oppressed people.
–(Jill Bains)
That is, unfortunately, what happens when peaceful options are not allowed.
there's an old saying "they won the war after losing every battle", when justice is on your side eventually the rest of the world will come your way......
there's an old saying "they won the war after losing every battle", when justice is on your side eventually the rest of the world will come your way......
Yes. And the Israelis are still too stupid to see it coming.
[If the Palestinians do a unilateral proclamation of a state and attempt to claim the pre-1967 borders: the only way that will happen is by force.]
Hedges seems to have missed this subtlety. This is the primary reason his entire article is surreal.
I think rather that there's a subtlety that Hedges does appreciate but has perhaps not made sufficiently clear.
He does not say the Palestinians should walk in and take the land; he says they should attempt to claim it. That is a very large difference. Sure they'd take the land if they could, but Hedges does not suggest that they can.
He suggests that by claiming it, they would provide an occasion for widespread support in international political bodies, and that the results might drive Israel to deliver some concessions.
I wish that Chris Hedges' sanguine hopes would come to fruition in the good faith solution he proposes, but here he is betrayed by an uncharacteristic naïveté.
His hopes here seem beyond "surreal," in that it resembles nothing so much as a waking hallucination.
There may be a brief period of 'newsworthy' and ineffectual diplomatic parlay but the facts on the ground will remain as implacable as ever until the genocide and unilateral state terror is completed.
Then it will be conveniently elided from memory, if not effaced entirely.
As one poster astutely commented up thread, it is only until the American empire collapses will change come and the state of Israel itself is destroyed in its current, intransigent Zionist incarnation.
The problem of America and Israel is a global one. 'Localizing' unilateral solutions brokered by both the victims or those responsible for the catastrophe are patently absurd. There will never be a 'negotiated' or voluntary settlement which can ever redress Palestinian grievances, only an imposed one which radically diminishes the power of the Israeli terror state.
Yet even the one secular state alternative– which has always been the only sensible solution– is fraught with extreme hazard. The radical disparities of 'economic' power sharing would perhaps create a 'fig leaf' state based on pretense, much like South Africa is today.
Yet this caveat should not be seen as an argument against that.
The fates of the two peoples are so deeply imbricated and entwined, that they should be treated as one people, in common cause. Having said that, if the independent Palestinian state is the most feasible 'fig leaf', take the 'half loaf' and run with it. Even if it be only 'symbolic.'–(Jill Bains)
We shouldn't despair if South African elites are still exploiting the people and the land. If we don't achieve our goal of universal equity/justice on this planet at one point in time, we simply move to the next point in time, which represents a new opportunity. There's no frustration. We just look with fascination at the prospects of achieving our goal, one step at a time, and enjoying our progress along the way.
Agreed!
This perspective is reminiscent of what Zhou Enlai, President of the Chinese Communist Party, famously said in1953 when asked about the French Revolution of 1789:
"It is still too early to tell."
The arc of time in history. What is invisible now, becomes visible later.
Israel is not an eternal construct. It will end. But it must be made to end.
–(Jill Bains)
Solution Polution IF THE USA ZIONISTS GET ENOUGH PRESSURE FROM CHINA.NO MORE SPENDING MONEY!If they have to curb their spending,MAYBE they will stop sending ISRAEL the 3 Billion annually and the Egyptians 2 billion annually to be Israel's nancy boy,unlikely. They will just print more monopoly money.World peer pressure IS HAVING AN EFFECT.
finally a positive move for the much beleaguered and bullied palestinians
trying to say that there is a two state solution against the seas of history is as silly as an american denying that the united states has become a nwo fascist state
we the citizens should declare ourselves autonomous from the nwo/rothschild/rockefeller debt/slavery machine
we could then, both us and the plo, rise up together shaking off our masters and then live once again as free peoples
Hey, I like that buff,
How about a virtual nation that ignores political borders? We could vote for leaders and recognize it instead of Washington. A full recall of the Congress and Impeachment of the President would be the first orders of business.
Maybe it would be just symbolic at first. But if about a billion people who are fed up joined it we might have some clout.
Fun to think about huh?
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
We are in Afghanistan as a prelude, from there we are going to attempt to denuclearise Pakistan, going into Balochistan first, UBL will allegedly be there.
In the American Embassy in Islamabad, teams on point for this are already in place w/ hundreds of special forces teams training and getting closer.
We intend to make India our proxy power in the region.
What is the most dangerous country in the world? I'd say us too, until a nuke from Pak turned NYC to glass. Or Tel-Aviv.
means
motive
opportunity
Always coming soon, to the theatre of the true.
azjoe and what about China and South and Central America, what are your thoughts on those countries?
Thank you Hedges for a concise honest article.
BDS BDS BDS
This simple but hard hitting video explains the real reason we're in Afghanistan and not going to leave.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/47739
thanks for the link: yeah the corporate powers run the global show....
"corporate powers run the show.' Yes they do. and they need a stage for doing it.
And the award for best actor goes to Barack Obama. What a performance!
Best supporting role: the US voter
When I was an undergrad student in 1982 we discussed this solution in a poly sci class. I often wondered then why it never gained traction. If the US undermines the effort on behalf of the Jewish lobby, it will be just another reflection of just how bought and paid for Obama is thus rendering illegitimate his lip service for the underdog. As we recently learned by Kucinich refusal to endorse the Dems health giveaway to the insurance lobby.
Yes, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Don't even bring up Obomba.
Hedges has become for me a nauseating writer because of his cringing deference to the Zionists. This whole article from start to finish seems to have no connection with reality whatsoever. First we start with the enshrined two-state solution, which the Israelis have unaccountably sacked. Here Hedges echos Chomsky and his endless bewailing of the Israelis refusal to accept 90% of everything they want. Then comes the kicker -
"The only alternative left to most Palestinians, unless an independent state is declared, will be endless war and an embrace of Islamic extremism."
So, Hedges has identified the ultimate culprit, Islamic extremism. The only reason left for resistance to US and Israeli aggression and occupation is fanatical Islam. How much of this complete idiocy can we stand. His opinions are in accord with Charles Krauthammer, Bill Moyers, Bill Kristol, and the rest of the Zionists. Yet he cloaks them in sickening false compassion and phony sense of impartial objectivity. Hedges is truly in the vanguard of the Zionist state.
Not Allan ----very well put,the nail on the head.
The half truthsters and omission junkies that you refer to,are worried about joining the poverty lines.However,it is a starting point for the, oh so duped American masses,to wonder and MAYBE DIG DEEPER? Believable,likable moyers/Hedges et al, who make an excellent living out of their skimpy peekaboo points of view,DARE not challenge the status quo.If any of us were in their privileged shoes,we might be chomping at the bit to get the truth out.'Will be endless war" Zionism agenda,you think?War is so a money maker for the filthified rich.
The apparent misreading of Hedges' text aside, what do you think Zionism is?
[The apparent misreading of Hedges' text aside, what do you think Zionism is?]
Zionism is support for a Jewish state on Palestinian land. Support for a two-state solution, as favored by Chomsky, Hedges, Zinn, everyone in the US media and politics, is a pro-Zionist position. Support for a one-state solution is the non-Zionist position.
Support your own home being turned into a duplex by strangers,then charging you to live there,even though it's paid for and you are unemployed, with no income and then the local police sitting on your roof night and day shooting at your children and grandchildren and even crapping there and not allowing a burial of one of your dead kids or hospital care if one is lucky enough to be injured instead of murdered. Definetely no water or food ,or leaving your yard and if you were to grow a garden that would have to be pulled up .As much vandalism and desecration of your property as possible No school for your children and no place for them to play.Oops maybe in the rubble of the house next door that just had a visit from a Caterpillar bulldozer!
That's kinda Zionism.GREED THEFT LIES SADISM TORTURE AND DOMINATION.RIGHTEOUS HUMANITY-------- NOT
You transparent ass, you never give up on this moronic rant. Only YOU and no one else is actually a "non-Zionist." Do you have any idea how tiresome your obvious Jew hating is? You don't give a shit about the Palestinians; they're just a convenient excuse for slandering everything Jewish your sick-ass one-dimensional brain can hatefully perceive. Hedges is a rational person. That for you means he's a "Zionist" like Chomsky and Zinn and, of course, everyone on the planet but "Not Allan."
Ephraim Ephraim. Far too personal,a bit of a ranter yourself. I'm a jew and we all know,there is a clear distinction between Zionists and Jews and to be intolerant of Zionism ,simply does not equate to"obvious jew hating" which you accused not allan of being,this is definetely not,Not allan.He is,in fact,absolutely correct in his assessment.If,as a writer,you cannot tell the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth,there is a very good reason for that and it is aberrancy and a collaboration with the main stream media liars .The Zionists'lies and distortions,inflicted on the general population,is quite criminal.The writers mentioned by not allan, are rational up to a point,not allan's point.These writers do fail.The real hard issues surrounding global atrocities(human and environmental)that we all hate,are dealt with by these writers mentioned,in a tepid,cautious way and from their vantage point of influence,is inescusable.They are cowards in a power position and that is disappointing and frustrating.They act as though in denial.Bluntly call a spade a spade,but they won't.
Well "Hey" Not Allan! Still unable to contain yourself, I see, about anything and everything C.Hedges. FYI-- you reveal yourself in every post (who and what you are) each and every time. It's amazing how anything Chris Hedges writes just sets you off. Must hit a little too close to home, eh?
However, as some other posters here have noted, your reasoning is getting a bit incoherent. Best work on that, mate!
Cheers...
ieb-----go take a time out mate
cheers to you to!
Well, here's the thing. The pattern is pretty clear. Truth always bubbles to the surface... eventually.
Cheers to you! ;)
Not Allan - Since everyone in the world except you is apparently a "Zionist," why don't you explain to us how a truly advanced & principled "non-Zionist" like yourself believes the I/P situation should be resolved? Please outline your envisioned solution, including some specific indication of which groups, governments or individuals around the world will be supporting it.
Surely a theoretically advanced non-Zionist like yourself should have no trouble spelling out your proposed program in a few paragraphs.
Still on the attack? Surely a NON middle class twit elite with your standing should not feel threatened by the pathetic likes of Not Allen. show us some of that famous middle of the road stuff that is so effective at changing the field of action. By the way just for your pleasure, i have put together a series of very important comments today on various subjects, to illustrate the historical success of change, by way of endless clever analysis of the worlds problems.
[Surely a theoretically advanced non-Zionist like yourself should have no trouble spelling out your proposed program in a few paragraphs.]
No problem. The only just and stable solution in Palestine is one pluralistic democratic state, the one-state solution. Just like in South Africa. This should be obvious to all.
You forgot to respond to the part about "...including some specific indication of which groups, governments or individuals around the world will be supporting it." This lack of response suggests you're not as interested in serious discussion as in just shooting your mouth off. Before you start denouncing the likes of Hedges & Chomsky, shouldn't you have some thoughtful response to questions like "What portion of Palestinians really want to share a single pluralistic democratic state with the 5.5 million or so Jews now in Israel?" Or "Who would support this single state, aside from some unclear portion of Palestinians"?
Also, as explained in Naomi Klein's "Shock Doctrine," what happened in South Africa was not so much the creation of "one pluralistic democratic state," as a situation where the white minority created the appearance of surrendering political control, while still retaining fairly complete economic control beneath the surface. Thus, most of the political gains were limited & basically illusory.
RichM-------- get over yourself 'not interested in a serious discussion "A bit presumptious ,a bit bombastic.END THE OCCUPATION!
"Thus, most of the political gains were limited & basically illusory." –(RichM)
–I cannot but agree more with this statement in the case of South Africa, as the unfulfilled 'revolution' sold itself short and deliberately sabotaged itself from within.
Yet I also cannot help but feel that this argument by 'analogy,' is not necessarily appropriate to the larger 'solution' of Israel-Palestine.
Sometimes the good must not be the enemy of the perfect, as nothing else will do, but that which seems impossible.
The points you make in your contretemps with 'NotAllan' seem dampened by an overweening personal hostility to someone who seems more than anything to be 'logically' unbalanced or someone with (to be polite) a confused perspective.
As far as the whole question of 'agendas.' hidden or otherwise, that seems irrelevant, speculative and ultimately neither here nor there.
But grotesquely as it may sound, those whom he excoriates, are certainly not, militantly 'anti Israel,' –in a way that after the fact of the Gaza massacre– seems to many– if not a capitulation, something of an ideological shortcoming. And perhaps they should indeed be more extreme. But it appears nonsensensical to say that Comsky, Greenwald et al. are closeted Zionist apologists.
Having said that, there is a vague, errant kernel of truth in his distortions however suspect his methods.
–(Jill Bains)
[But it appears nonsensensical to say that Comsky, Greenwald et al. are closeted Zionist apologists.]
What? It only seems nonsensical because you don't have an explicit definition of Zionism, rather you let the Zionists define it implicitly.
Here is your assignment
1 - come up with an explicit definition of Zionism. (Hint: the raison d'etre of Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine).
2 - Determine if Chomsky and and Greenwald are Zionists. (Hint: Chomsky explicitly favors the two-state solution so he is clearly a Zionist, Greeenwald you have to search out, but he is a self-described Zionist according to posts on his blog on salon.com)
3 - Finally, define a criterion that will determine if x is a Zionist (Hint: support of the two-state solution equals Zionism, support for the one-state solution is (as close as we can get to) non-Zionist.) Or, better yet, a Zionist supports the division of Palestine into two states, a non-Zionist doesn't.
Chomsky's quotes on the subject were covered in another thread. Also quotes from Greenwald's blog.
I think your riposte is instructive and your points are well taken. I think I simplistically over reacted to your categorical characterizations of both Chomsky and Greenwald. Both critiques seem on the surface counterfactual, but it would not surprise me that they are not.
This 'issue' indeed seems to be your métier or your bailiwick. What puts people off is that you take on iconic figures of institutional 'leftism' and your arguments are radically counterintuitive to 'received' wisdom and adamantine opinion.
It does indeed pivot on the specificity of the definition of 'Zionism.' I just suspect there may a danger in such exigent 'over' defining.
Perhaps what you point out about Greenwald accounts for why I have never been able to entirely trust his larger 'politics' despite the heavy lifting he does as a civil libertarian and on the torture issue. There is always something 'suspect' in what lies beyond the obvious good work he does.
It would not surprise me one iota that the 'one state' solution in Palestine would be anathema to him. But if that actually makes him a Zionist in the purest pejorative sense remains murky and equivocal to me. But your line of reasoning has forced, if not a retraction of having deemed your characterizations as 'nonsensical,' at the very least–a serious reconsideration.
Are Glenn Greenwald's positions antithetical and opposed to the liberation struggles of the Palestinian people? Is he a de facto supporter of Israeli state terrorism and the expanding, illegal occupation? Does he support the massive transfer of billions in military aide from the U.S. to Israel, or that Israel refuses to allow inspections for nuclear weaponry?
Perhaps anyone who supports the very existence of the Israeli state is a Zionist? But then so what? Where does that leave the discourse?
To me what constitutes a definition of Zionism is the pejorative finality of the term as an actionable evil. Perhaps, if Greenwald or Chomsky do support the 'two-state' solution then it stands to reason they support all the former positions by force of logic and they are full-on Zionists? Are there 'degrees' of Zionist militancy and evil? I'm not sure. Maybe I'm reading you wrong. Perhaps Zionism is not something that can be 'sub-divided,' but that it is holistically evil, in and of itself? As it now stands, who can say that is not absolutely true?
As a stickler for 'explicit definitions' rather than 'implicit' ones you seem to demand an absolutist, severely delimited and proscriptive narrowing of terms on which all your arguments pivot. Perhaps this categorical absolutism is indeed warranted here. I don't know. But then again, maybe you have 'over defined' yourself-if not into the purely 'nonsensical' then into a politically useless rigidity, or a 'one size fits all' speciousness.
Not that you may or may not be a 'nit-picker' but don't tell me that, lets, say, Leon Trotsky was a Zionist? A Jew yes, but not a Zionist.
Having said that, I thank you for your contributions.
–(Jill Bains)
[Perhaps anyone who supports the very existence of the Israeli state is a Zionist?]
Perhaps? That's it in a nutshell.
[But then so what? Where does that leave the discourse?]
Believe it or not there are people who do not support the existence of apartheid Israel. To you that is unthinkable? That is the goal of Zionists.
Definitions are not nit picking, particularly in this case. They at least let you know what you're talking about. Read ILA's comments, they carry it a bit deeper.
I don't know if you read Chomsky's article on propaganda I posted in another thread .... it is instructive to say the least ... here tis again ...
"How Propaganda Works in the West
Keeping the People Passive & Obedient
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views"
Thus, in the US the spectrum of debate is from the right, Likud Zionists who want all of Palestine, and on the left 'humanitarian' Zionists like Chomsky, Carter, Greenwald, who'll settle for the 67 borders. No other opinions receive any play AT ALL in the media, politics, etc. THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO REALIZE. The Zionists control the debate 100%
WELL SAID NOT ALLAN
[South Africa .... (where) most of the political gains were limited & basically illusory.]
Surely theoretically advanced Zionists like yourself and Naomi Klein should have no trouble in avoiding idiocy like the above?
In other words, you have no response to serious questions like the ones I just posed, & you don't believe it's important to respond to them. Your only response is simply the infantile one of calling everyone else in the world a "Zionist".
Transparently, you do this because it's a cheap way for you to pretend you're better than everyone. You invent a world in which you personally are the only "non-Zionist." Then everyone else, including Chomsky, Hedges, Klein (and probably most Palestinians) are all "Zionists." In this set-up, since you're the only "non-Zionist," you're better than everyone else. // That's all your idiotic raving on CD is really about. It has nothing to do with desiring "justice for Palestinians." It's just a cheap excuse for you to shoot your silly yap off, with pretensions of moral virtue.
RICHM"IDIOTIC RAVING""SHOOT YOUR SILLY YAP OFF" Now that is harsh.Can't we all just get along!
"It's just a cheap excuse for you to shoot your silly yap off, with pretensions of moral virtue."
or perhaps Not Allen is a progressive blog agent provocateur whose real mission is to cast those sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians as crazed Jew-haters, by pretending to be one himself
I can just see cheerleaders for Israeli expansion cutting & pasting his comments without context (other sane responses) to show how demented and anti-semitic commenters on this forum are
[or perhaps Not Allen is a progressive blog agent provocateur whose real mission is to cast those sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians as crazed Jew-haters, by pretending to be one himself]
Quite possible, as I've seen him posting a number of quotes from revisionist 'historians'. Then again, he might just be nuts.
Not Allen; Your creepy illogical attempt at a cunning post falls flat; it's descent into A****** ZioShit was quick and the same.
ZioShit is a complete inversion of verifiable facts indignantly presented as the truth. Lies are the only avenue for those DEFENDING ETHNIC CLEANSING, MURDERING BABIES, SHOOTING PREGNANT MOTHERS IN THE BELLY-BUTTON!!!
Can you send me an IDF 2 for 1 t-shirt w/ the targeted pregnant Arab Woman? Please? XL.
They say that nuclear component that "went astray" in Pak, that was a false alarm.
Sooner or later it won't be. Where will it be detonated? What Monster will it kill? What accursed disease will it cure?
I love Jewish people, Love. But loathe this monster called Israel.
>I love Jewish people, Love. But loathe this monster called Israel.
The monster called Israel is a creation of the Jewish people. Hitler died over 60 years ago - no one is sending Jews to concentration camps today. There is absolutely no excuse for Jews from America, Canada, Britain, France - and other countries - going to live in the Middle East where they don't belong.
Admittedly, there is some persecution still going on, but then lots of people round the world are persecuted for one reason or another - e.g. Gypsies. Some Jews from Russia went to Israel and were made most unwelcome because they didn't follow the Jewish religion or culture. In fact, they weren't Jews at all - they were Russians! - but some not-too-bright Russians think Jews are a race - as Hitler did - and singled them out for different treatment.
Jews going to live in the Middle East only feed Hitler's belief that Jews are a race. Eugenics, however, is a discredited pseudo-science.
Perhaps you can explain to me how a white caucasian Jew and an Arab Jew can belong to the same race or ethnic group?
staying..sane..in; I can't connect the dots in your post, but offer this; I'm an Arabophile, really like 'em....a-nd, this makes me a little angry with Israel. During Gaza I was quite angry; and have learned that when maligning, impugning judging and yes, Loathing Israel that it is what? The Jewish country. So I separate that fom my friends and all Jews who are not part of this.
And those of us Jews who were equally disgusted and enraged by the rape of Gaza thank you for keeping a rational mind (despite all of your vaporized herb :-)
Hi z, herb? What is this herb you speak of?
z, I'm reading Antietam by J.M. McPherson who explains how the South sought Statehood by recognition from Britian & France in 1862; it was all-critical; it could have changed everything. And nearly happened.
February, New York Tribune,"If our armies (Union) now advancing shall generally be stopped or beaten back, France, England and Spain will make haste to recognize Jeff's Confederacy."
[Not Allen; Your creepy illogical attempt ...]
Think.
[ZioShit...]
Forgo scatology.
Not Allan, my humble apologies and would substitute ZioNonsense that I could.
Again, pardon moi. Did I see you speak for a one-state? That will never happen; the Jews hate the Palestinians far, far too much. Feverishly.
To Nonsense!
"Not Allan"
So, I'm guessing you are either in congress or a member of AIPAC because I've never read any comment which is more misrepresentative of what I just read.
[I've never read any comment which is more misrepresentative of what I just read.]
Read it again, gauging the nuance. Hedges is the most sickening Zionist sycophant on the planet.
Let me give you an example - free speech is under assault all over the world from the ADL, which has passed 'hate crime' and 'hate speech' laws in many countries and in many states in the US. They have just succeeded, after 30 years of effort, in getting a foothold in US federal law with a new 'hate crimes' law. Google - Ireland prohibition of incitement to hate - to see just how Orwellian these laws can be.
Now, Hedges wrote a book about the attack on free speech in the US. Who did he identify as the villain, the ADL? Not mentioned. The book - 'American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America', the title tells it all. In Hedges book it is the Christians, a hapless bunch of fools if there ever was one, that got us into the wars in the middle east, that are destroying US culture, and that are attacking free speech. Exactly wrong on every count. Hedges has become one of the Zionists most effective spokespersons.
AM I THE ONLY FAN OF NOT ALLAN!
The Christian Right, in tune with AIPAC and CUFI (Christians United For Israel)do pose the greatest threat to this democracy - or what is left of it. Hedges' points on this subject have been proven time and time again. Domestic political manipulation; AIPAC control of Congress; the newly emerging 'radical right' funded, bedded and coddled by the Religious Right with its Israeli support - these I fear. Hedges I read.
The Zionists play the Christian right like Vassar Clements plays the Cannonball Rag. Look at it this way, what is the ONE thing the Christians want? Answer - an end to unrestricted abortion. What have they got? Absolutely nothing. They have absolutely zero power on the one issue they really care about. They have zero power on every other issue as well. The Christians are not fascists, that's just complete idiocy from Hedges and the other Zionists.
NA --- I am not sure how old you are, or what your background is---- I am almost 70 ---- I was raised in the clutches of these dolts, and I know a little about them. You are waaaaay of base. Hedges is right. Your judgement as expressed in the above posts to the least calls your understanding and judgment into serious question.
donkey-------- you may be 70 but you have a lot of growing to do. you and a few others just aren't getting it(NA posts) maybe cause you need new glasses, you sure don't seem to be reading what NA is posting,never mind understanding where he is coming from and he, in my humble opinion is ,RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
Turning the tables on hypocrites is always a delicious and fun exercise in cognitive dissonance not to be missed. After all what do the Palestinians have to lose that hasn't already been taken? A fine example of poetic justice if ever there was one.
Poet
I wonder why the Palestinians never did this before? But good luck to them. The deserve and need this.