Would We Listen to Nature if Our Lives Depended on It?
People who read my work often say, “Okay, so it’s clear you don’t like this culture, but what do you want to replace it?” The answer is that I don’t want any one culture to replace this culture. I want ten thousand cultures to replace this culture, each one arising organically from its own place. That’s how humans inhabited the planet (or, more precisely, their landbases, since each group inhabited a place, and not the whole world, which is precisely the point), before this culture set about reducing all cultures to one.
I live on Tolowa (Indian) land. Prior to the arrival of the dominant culture, the Tolowa lived here for 12,500 years, if you believe the myths of science. If you believe the myths of the Tolowa, they lived here since the beginning of time. This story may sound familiar, but its significance has, thus far, been lost on the dominant culture, so it bears repeating: when the first settlers arrived here maybe 180 years ago, the place was a paradise. Salmon ran in runs so thick you couldn’t see the bottoms of rivers, so thick people were afraid to put their boats in for fear they would capsize, so thick they would keep people awake at night with the slapping of their tails against the water, so thick you could hear the runs for miles before you could see them. Whales were commonplace in the nearby ocean. Forests were thick with frogs, newts, salamanders, birds, elk, bears. And of course huge ancient redwood trees.
Now I count myself blessed when I see two salmon in what we today call Mill Creek. Another Tolowa staple, Pacific lampreys, are in bad shape. Just three years ago you could not hold a human conversation outside at night in the spring, and now I hear maybe five or six frogs at night. Salamanders, newts, songbirds, all are equivalently gone. The rivers are poisoned with pesticides and herbicides. All in less than two centuries.
Why? Or, perhaps more important, how?
Only the most arrogant and ignorant among us would say something that implies that all humans are destructive, and that the dominant (white) culture is the most destructive simply because somehow indigenous peoples around the world were too stupid to invent backhoes and chainsaws, too backward to dominate their human and nonhuman neighbors with the efficiency and viciousness of the dominant culture. They might even try to argue that the Tolowa weren’t actually living sustainably, even though they lived here for at least 12,500 years. But when 12,500 years of living in place won’t convince them, it becomes pretty clear that evidence is secondary, and that there are, rather, ideological reasons the person cannot accept that humans have ever lived sustainably. One of these ideological reasons is very clear: if you can convince yourself that humans are inherently destructive, then you allow yourself the most convenient of all excuses not to work to stop this culture from destroying the planet: it’s simply in our nature to destroy, and you can’t fight biology, so let’s not fuss about all these little extinctions, and could someone please pass the TV remote? It’s an odious position, but a lot of people take it.
If we want to stop this culture from killing the planet, we might instead try asking how so many indigenous cultures lived in place for so long without destroying their landbases.
There are many differences between indigenous and nonindigenous ways of being in the world, but I want to mention two here. The first is that the indigenous had and have serious long-term relationships with the plants and animals with whom they share their landscape. Ray Rafael, who has written extensively on the concept of wilderness, has said that Native Americans hunted, gathered, and fished “using methods that would be sustainable over centuries and even millennia. They did not alter their environment beyond what could sustain them indefinitely. They did not farm, but they managed the environment. But it was different from the way that people try to manage it now, because they stayed in relationship with it.”
That last phrase is key. What would a society look like that was planning on being in that particular place five hundred years from now? What would an economics look like? If you knew for a fact that your descendants five hundred years from now would live on the same landbase you inhabit now, how would that affect your relationship to sources of water? How would that affect your relationship with topsoil? With forests? Would you produce waste products that are detrimental to the soil? Would you poison your water sources (or allow them to be poisoned)? Would you allow global warming to continue? If the very lives of your children and their children depended on your current actions—and of course they do—how would you act differently than you do?
The other difference I want to mention—and essentially every traditional indigenous person with whom I have ever spoken has said that it is the fundamental difference between western and indigenous peoples—is that even the most open Westerners view listening to the natural world as a metaphor, as opposed to something real. I asked American Indian writer Vine Deloria about this, and he said, “I think the primary thing is that Indians experience and relate to a living universe, whereas Western people, especially science, reduce things to objects, whether they’re living or not. The implications of this are immense. If you see the world around you as made up of objects for you to manipulate and exploit, not only is it inevitable that you will destroy the world by attempting to control it, but perceiving the world as lifeless robs you of the richness, beauty, and wisdom of participating in the larger pattern of life.” That brings to mind a great line by a Canadian lumberman: “When I look at trees I see dollar bills.” If when you look at trees, you see dollar bills, you’ll treat them one way. If when you look at trees, you see trees, you’ll treat them differently. If when you look at this particular tree you see this particular tree, you’ll treat it differently still. The same is true for salmon, and, of course, for women: if when I look at women I see objects, I’m going to treat them one way. If when I look at women I see women, I’ll treat them differently. And if when I look at this particular woman I see this particular woman, I’ll treat her differently still.
Here’s where people usually ask, “Okay, so how do I listen to the natural world?” When people ask me this, I always begin by asking them if they have ever made love. If so, I ask whether the other person always had to say, “put this here,” or “do that now,” or did they sometimes read their lover’s body, listen to the unspoken language of the flesh? Having established that one can communicate without words, I then ask if they have ever had any nonhuman friends (a.k.a. pets). If so, how did the dog or cat let you know that her food dish was empty? I used to have a dog friend who would look at me, look at the food dish, look at me, look at the food dish, until finally the message would get across to me.
How do we hear the rest of the natural world? Unsurprisingly enough, the answer is: by listening. That’s not easy, given that we have been told for several thousand years that these others are silent. But the fact that we cannot easily hear them doesn’t mean they aren’t speaking, and does not mean they have nothing to say. I’ve had people respond to my suggestion that they listen to the natural world by going outside for five minutes and then returning to say they didn’t hear anything. But how can you expect to learn any new language (remember, most nonhumans don’t speak English) in such a short time? Learning to listen to our nonhuman neighbors takes effort, humility, and patience.
The Tolowa believed the nonhuman world had something to say, and that what the nonhuman world had to say was vital to their own survival. Given that they were living here sustainably for 12,500 years, and given that we manifestly are not, perhaps the least we could do is acknowledge that they were on to something, and maybe even explore just what that kind of relationship might look and feel like.
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115 Comments so far
Show AllHuh. So you killed, cooked and ate this beauty. Amazing. What or who would find reason in it. Is this to make me go out and without disturbing the peaceful frogs or salamanders to hunt down quietly with a knife a peaceful deer. Ripping its still beating heart out of its chest as it glares at me and I drink its blood. And then call myself a man. Wow. What inspiration. I almost fell for your lines about how you care for life. LIFE. I thought I would try to catch some sort of conscience. Anyway what a wonderful description of the sounds I listen to in my ears. I always have the sounds of summer in my ears. Coincidence, I don't know. Ringing in my ears is what I'm writing about. Back to ripping and tearing the flesh from animals. After slicing the hide off of what was a peaceful creature and then drawing a picture to state how happy I am for something to offer itself to my blade. I lay down to sleep. Just to hear those fish tails flapping all night. I wish I had something to shut all of these things up. That is until white people showed up and open media. Then appears the so called (white) man. He supposedly hasn't lived long enough (according to subject matter controlled by ?)in the northern hemisphere in a way that would lead anyone to believe that he also has existed on this planet as peaceful humans. Always the white man in the northern hemisphere. Causing all the problems. What is he doing here. Even as tactfully written as it was there was a highly aggrevated overtone is what I caught. Well if the saboteurs can elect even more ignorant white people to power. You of the other (being that it is illegal to describe anyone other than that friggin white etc.) can claim whites have no reason to be. White should just leave the planet. Wohoo, yippie. Don't eat meat. Stop animal testing. Freak out if you want to. Just another white in the northern hemisphere. What am I doing here. Uh. Something about planets. Life. I didn't need anything killed today or tomorrow for that matter. So whatever.
It is a romantic MYTH that indiginous peoples did not effect or actively change their environment in ways that we would say are negative.
Take my country of origin, Australia. It is what it is today, a mostly desert country with some grass lands and some eucalypt forest, because it was made that way by human activity. It wasn't always like that. The native Australians purposely changed the environment using burning to clear the land, it took tens of thousands of years but they did do it.
And how do you know this to be true?
Scientists find all sorts of things.
They have found the layers of ash from burning.
Even tho we are all children of the last iceage, the indigenous are the only ones with direct knowledge of how to live with Nature. Moderns are killing them off.
"Cap-and-trade' has polluters buying rainforest for credits and driving off the tribes who have survived there for 10,000 years into the cities to die.
We truly are too stupid and greedy to survive!
Ref: Black Elk Speaks---"The only things that work well are the things that work the way Nature works".
Ref: Seventh Generation priciples.
I dislike the fact that life has only existed as long as science or some written book suggests. Dirt comes from death. This planet is covered with dirt. All the planets in the universe have an assemblege of dirt. To say that life as stupid as it may sound comes only from an intellect that is still learning where it comes from yet describes in perfection that it knows everything is contempt. A secret you probably would believe if science or religion served it to you. Both in the meaning of someone that you respect their stories. Life will continue on this or someplace else in this or another universe. If you believe that there was never anything before this life then where did all the dirt come from. Reach down and touch the ground. That is reality. Dirt. All others are wannabe's Control freaks or greed mongers. Life deserves to live. Not be condemned to oppression of another species that (considers itself god). Oh yea and this god is always searching for a new way to prove itself right. Go figure. Right is right alone or in a crowd of displeased. You realize what is right. But your actions are considered/controlled by the many. So what/how/why do you chose. And are your actions verifiable to everything. Humans left nature long ago. They just ply to concieve what is was like. You see something kill something and then you do it doesn't make it natural. Just saw the ice age comment. That's all.
If you'd like to continue this conversation with Derrick himself, you can do so. Derrick is a monthly guest on WOJB 88.9FM which broadcasts from the Lac Courte Oreilles Ojibwa Reservation in NW Wisconsin. The one-hour live call-in is from 10:00AM until 11:00AM CST and is also web-streamed live. You can find out more about the program and the radio station at www.wojb.org. Most months the program is the first Monday, but this month Derrick in order to accommodate Derrick's travel schedule he will be on with host Eric Schubring on Monday the 16th.
Inimical sacrifice, obviously.
As soon as religion taught us that we are "above" all other living things instead of being a part of all living things the stage was set for the destruction of the environment and sustainable living in particular.
Then the earth became nothing more than a big candy store to loot at our pleasure - consequences be damned.
Let's not put that on ALL religion.
What some folks call "primitive" religions--as well as Buddhism--do not place or species above all others. Being at the top of the food chain doesn't make our species superior.
And as a direct result of their religion, they have a narcissistic tendacy not to care about the harm they are causing and the planet they are destroying, nor the fact that they have no place to flee to afterward. Well in their eyes, who cares, jesus will come and save us from ourselves.
This is why we need to help the planet and make a difference ourselves.
Interesting article by someone I had heard of but never read. Also interesting comments.
Years ago I read a book that claimed that the hunter-gatherer cultures of North America actually had more leisure time than the agriculturalists. Which brings me to ezeflyer's recent comment:
"I don't know how the Tolowa kept their populations from growing to the point of destroying their habitat, but I would guess it was by inter-tribal warfare, accidents, contraceptive herbs, predation, disease and maybe even infanticide."
Try being a hunter-gatherer in the American midwest today, no gun permitted of course. This time of year the only edible weed is pigweed while you can make a tea from a few other leaves. There's a plethora of deer around here, but again, no gun. Can you make a bow and arrows? I'll even give you a steel knife. See if you can skin it if you manage to kill it.
As I've posted before, we've been overpopulated since the time of Thucydides. How Amerindians exercised population control as compared to other cultures remains a mystery to me. Maybe they kept pet goats! (Just kidding...)
-30-
"They have ears, but they can't hear; neither is there any breath in their mouths."- Psalm 135:17
The newborn's consciousness grows- more aware- she loves her mother- memories, smells, tastes, warmth. Mother's arms embracing and wrapped around. And the child begins to love the mother and the mother loves the child- Time passes and the child grows stronger- separates from the mother- sometimes the bonds of love remain strong- sometimes the child grows angry and forgets the mother- Yet there is this bond and it can never be broken. The mother grows old and one day the child takes care of the mother- the mother dies and is reborn- the child dies and is reborn and in love it all goes on- Take care of your mother Earth- the gift of love is more precious than life itself.
-------------------------
Remember the Dawn of Trees- remember when the Earth was fresh and young- remember when the Earth rejoiced- the Universe smiled.
Trees- young, wild, free- born. Now Earth is much older- Rejoice the wisdom of the trees- the mountains, the waters- the birds, the fox, the wolf, the deer- all creation- The sacred wisdom of all spirit returns to human beings- to teach-to learn to remember- to heal- to heal the Earth- to heal each other-the medicine- the love.
My beloved trees- keepers of wisdom- who give to the Earth as much as they take- who shelter all life.
If you go to where the Tolowa live and listen carefully you may hear the whisper of the roulette wheel or the sweet soft rustle of cards being shuffled at the Lucky 7 casino.
Due to the gringos ripping off our mineral rights of our apartheid reserves.
Native American communities still have the highest levels of poverty in Gringolandia--even WITH casinos.
If you venture through the halls of higher learning you will find science for sale to the highest bidder. It is not a contest. Our understanding of the world came by being in relationship with it. All that information is second hand now as it must first be vetted by scientific thought. That is the loss because only some people can know and that is the lie.
No question that science has been misused and it is a huge mistake to consider that what is known by science is the only truth; or, shall we say, the only perspective available to us.
Nevertheless, science wasn't invented by Descartes or Bacon. It was used by hunter gatherer societies long before the agricultural and industrial ages. In fact, a case can be made that they were more "scientific" than much of subsequent culture. They were keen observers of the details of their environment, experimented, developed empirical knowledge, etc. (I thank Carl Sagan for the seed of this thought.)
I think it would be just as foolish to reject scientific findings now as it would have been for the hunter gatherer societies to reject them then. We are still gathering knowledge, just as they were. What is important is to realize that the methods of science can live comfortably with and even be part of "enchantment" and a visceral, spiritual relationship with the earth. It appears to be a natural state and it is mainly misuse through the political development of technology and the usual exclusiveness of the gatherers of power that is the problem.
The political and social system is the problem, not science per se.
The source of information as nature or a scientific finding does not remain as empirical information. Obviously, political and social systems are not applying thier collective understanding of nature in a meaningfull way. BTW, most hunter-gatherers that I know would be upset that you refer to them in past=tense or that they are referred to as hunter-gathers. We are all human beings, I guess we listen in different ways.
I don't understand your first sentence. The second sentence is what I was saying. The point of your third sentence needs to be taken in the context of mine: "It was used by hunter gatherer societies long before the agricultural and industrial ages." Naturally, I was using the past tense. I used "hunter gatherer" in comparing social and economic systems. I agree that indigenous is a better term in many circumstances. I'm quite aware of my indigenous ancestors who are not gone but in my genes and soul and knowledge. You can be assured that, in a large measure, I am one myself spiritually and that much of my criticism of industrial society draws from that source. Nevertheless, those I criticize are our cousins (unbalanced, to be sure.) It can't be denied. Your final sentence is true except that the differences are illusions on the level on which we should be living or at least be aspiring to, but I think it is true individually and not separately. It's the bifurcation of what should be holistic that is the major source of our problems.
The first sentence is in response to sources of information and it is my feeling too that you do not understnad what I am saying. I think it is because we see things differently. The second sentence we agree without any atributions. The third sentence was uncomfortable for me and I will leave it at that. We live the way we do to be with our ancestors that includes all things, a fine aspiration on your part. You are and interesting person.
We, Americans, only listen to nature when we have to eat, shit or are horny. Otherwise, that'd be a resounding NOOOOOOOOOO!
A beautiful essay, Derrick.
Gotta love the world of coincidence. In a half hour from now I'm going to listen to Derrick talk. Before going I thought I'd check out CD while waiting, and I find this article. Should be interesting.
Enjoy the talk! Let us know how it went.
It's not the culture but the economic system that will destroy the planet if it is not brought down by class conscious working people. Capitalism is incapable of turning away from the abyss.
The Scorpion and the Frog
A scorpion and a frog meet on the bank of a stream and the
scorpion asks the frog to carry him across on its back. The
frog asks, “How do I know you won’t sting me?” The scorpion
says, “Because if I do, I will die too.”
The frog is satisfied, and they set out, but in midstream,
the scorpion stings the frog. The frog feels the onset of
paralysis and starts to sink, knowing they both will drown,
but has just enough time to gasp “Why?”
Replies the scorpion: “Its my nature…”
The globalizers had to squeeze the last dollar of profit out of the planet and its people. It’s the nature of capitalism. So they have stung all of humanity half way across the river and the paralysis is setting in. The pillars of the economy are crumbling—banking, finance, manufacture, housing, the whole enchillada.
Arable land is dwindling under the strain of historic drought and biblical flooding. Then our daily bread now must be transported over huge distances if we are to eat at all. The same goes for all of life’s other necessities.
If the supply of oil has not begun to run out, it will soon enough. For the sake of a couple extra pennies of gain for Wal-Mart we are to live or die on the availability of cheap and plentiful energy supplies. Dying is becoming the better bet by the day.
Under these developments, the people of the world are struggling with a marked escalation of the class war. Maybe no one has a firm grip on “what is to be done?”, to borrow Lenin’s phraseology. But it is for sure a time to reject fatalism, defeatism, nihilism and any other current which involves the people in rolling over to die quietly.
If Karl Marx was right, we have reached the end times not of humanity but of the capitalist economic system. It is a time when the working class was, through its collective discipline and might, supposed to conduct and win a war with the bourgeoisie and establish its rule. Then the building of socialism was to commence. War, racism and poverty would be banished in the ensuing years along with all of capitalism’s pathological influences on man.
What are the prospects for this scenario? However likely or remote, the idea should not be given up on because the other choices are too horrific to passively accept—the Orwellian state, bands of survivalists roaming a scorched landscape, the extinction of the human being.
If farmers were allowed to grow hemp, the land would be arable but it is forbidden and the TERRORIST DEA will bomb our farms just like they did in Lakota Nation back in 2000 if we try to grow hemp in the USA.
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
Hey, good to see you on here again.
Oh, thanks. I've been through a lot for a while and I've only gotten to post rarely. I can't remember who I met before. :-)
Terrance Mitchell
Redfield, South Dakota
"if you believe the myths of science."
"Now I count myself blessed"
I guess you prefer the myths of religion. Otherwise, nice article.
I don't know how the Tolowa kept their populations from growing to the point of destroying their habitat, but I would guess it was by inter-tribal warfare, accidents, contraceptive herbs, predation, disease and maybe even infanticide.
Other than by the restoration of such cruel methods, I would say that the best way to preserve habitat is to do it like wildlife experts do, by controlling populations.
Fortunately we have humane methods of birth control. Unfortunately its against religion and growth centered capitalism, so nature must take its course and revert to killing us by the old methods.
well eze I would guess you are stuck in western civ and can't get out. Indigenous peoples all over the world, not just the Tolowa, always lived sustainably. and they did this for like 500,000 years, and what's more the tribal people who have managed to survive are still doing it.
destroying one's habitat is an an invention of civilization, never a problem for indigenous people.
Can I offer a factual correction? We modern humans (modestly self-named 'homo sapiens sapiens') don't go back 500K years. As far as we can tell from the fossil record, we barely go back 175K-200K years.
I'd also suggest that 'indigenous peoples always lived sustainably' is presumptive and question-begging, since we know for certain that there have been cultures and precursors to modern humans that are no longer around. What happened to them? In most cases we have no clear evidence, so what would support the claim that they lived sustainably? How would we know if they *didn't*? They'd die out, right? And the area where they lived, that they overpopulated or overused, would if possible gradually restore itself as, e.g., Iceland has partly done.
So now we come on the scene of their catastrophic mistake, look around, and say to ourselves "Oh they must have moved away or been killed by invaders" or tell ourselves some other story because we don't want to believe that their populations fit to the same big-hump-in-the-middle curve we do, that most of them were merely well-intentioned, average blunderers just as most of us are, the only differences between Them and Us being how much science and history they had (or in their case didn't have) as a guide, and the level of technology they could employ.
The key factor is one that Margaret Mead noted: during the early part of our species's history, when some group of humans effed up their environment or did something else catastrophic, it was a local disaster that affected only them. Hundreds or even a few thousand people, everyone for miles around, might all die of famine, disease, or war, and completely vanish from the record. But other groups were not only not affected, but didn't even know about it. Today, that's no longer true. Now the psychopaths can create --and we in our crabbit, slothy witlessness are letting them create-- catastrophes big enough that not a single high-order creature on the planet can escape.
Great Post ezeflyer,
I have a sneaking suspicion that that's what the elite have done to our food supply: Made it lethal! If one keeps eating at Mcduck's, for example, one may die before they reach 30 (according to a family doctor from the past). But poisoning all of us with bird flu and swine flu is not going to cull the population significantly; it's just going to make most of us miserable. The answer to how to deal with our dying planet via population control is not in the Skull and Bones club. It's in Democracy. If the people still had a seat at the table, Pipeline-Astan wars would end and GM would be forced to produce cheap public transport or vehicles getting 100 mpg. How to bag the BigOil and MIC Frankenstiens, that is the question imho. There's loads of bribe-laden Lobbyists making a mockery of Democracy every day on K street. K street is where the enemies of the US Constitution make policy, in the vile bars and restaurants of that cursed demonic den.
Population control needs to happen; but it needs to be decided by the people, not the elite, I believe. Otherwise, as I'm sure you're cognizant of, all the environmental laws and efforts in the world cannot overcome the hoards of Homo sapiens who aspire to live in wood houses and burn fossil fuels in the simple acts of domestic life.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
"Population control needs to happen; but it needs to be decided by the people, not the elite,"
Good point. It could be done tomorrow via initiative and referendum. Elites realize this and are sabotaging voter initiatives and referendums in California and demonizing referendums in developing countries.
"The Tolowa believed the nonhuman world had something to say, and that what the nonhuman world had to say was vital to their own survival".
Derrick Jensen relates what people who are close to the land, to nature, to animals, have always known.
We know that by listening to the nonhuman world, we can learn from them. We can learn how to respect all life, and not just human life.
"Learning to listen to our nonhuman neighbors takes effort, humility, and patience."
We are all connected. Science proves that. We are very close biologically to amoeba and to pigs, as well as apes.
If we all cared more about life, in general, not just our own lives, we could all have a better life.
What we do to the environment, we do to ourselves. And what we do to animals, we do to ourselves.
Being more conscious is the way to real "happiness".
My sister has a little cabin in Northern Wisconsin under a very beautiful, old White Pine. She once told me that she talks to the tree, and I thought, "Oh, that's nice, talking to nature". But then she said, "It answers me". I was surprised, of course! But then I realized that she was talking *with* the tree, not *at* it.
F. David Peat has written about this seemingly strange connection that one can experience. I will copy a few paragraphs:
Over the last few years I have had the privilege of making contact with some of the First Peoples of Turtle Island (Native Americans) and of learning something of their sacred ceremonies which not only affirm and celebrate the unity of the group with the cosmos, but also seek to renew the spirit, energy and life within all that exists.
It is important to note that the synchronistic relationship between, for example, a Sun Dance or a ceremony carried out at a medicine wheel does not seek a direct causal involvement with the rising of the sun or the movement of the cosmos. In other words, these ceremonies are not based upon a world view that seeks to control and manipulate the forces of nature; rather, it is through these ceremonies that the group comes into relationship with the surrounding energies and spirits, and in this way sustains within nature a dynamic state of harmony and balance. Within such a state of balance the sun, game, the group and each person in it will live harmoniously.
To put it another way one can turn to the !Kung of southern Africa who sing and play music to the forest.4 Their world view is likewise not based upon our Western notion of causal relationship for, if questioned, they would probably say that they sing in order to make the forest happy, for when the forest is happy then all its children are happy - including the !Kung After relating this example to my Blackfoot friend, Leroy Little Bear, he pointed out to me that all the creatures of the forest have their tasks to perform, their obligations and their ways of being. The ants move across the forest floor, the birds sing, the animals hunt , the trees grow and provide shelter and, for their part, the !Kung sing. And so when each aspect of life, from the trees and rocks, to the birds, flowers and humans carry out their proper tasks then harmony and balance is present for all. The !Kung with their music, and the Blackfoot with their Sun Dance are well aware of the synchronistic dance in which they are involved. But what of ourselves? What of our own society? Do we understand the nature of the task required of us, the way of being that does not seek to control and manipulate nature but rather ensures harmony with the rest of existence?
Copied from here: http://www.fdavidpeat.com/bibliography/essays/synch.htm
all good stuff gandy. i think somebody is getting the !Kung mixed up with the Mbuti. The !KUng are known as "Bushmen", and live in the Kalahari desert. Their relationship with their environment though is just as sacred and intimate.
The Mbuti also have a vulgar name, "Pygmies", but never mind. They live in the Ituri rainforest, and do indeed enjoy a magical, loving relationship with the forest. (see Colin Turnbull's book The Forest People)
What these two groups have in common is they live where no one else can or wants to. The Mbuti have always felt the way they do about the forest in no small part because the forest provides all they need, but it is also so frightening to people who live nearby they will not go in there, so the forest also protects her people.
And the !Kung, similarly, living in the desert, know it so well they have made it into a friendly and welcoming habitat, no matter how forbidding it may look to outsiders.
Thanks and it seems you are correct. I looked at Wikipedia and found that the !KUng (if I am remembering right!) consider the Earth to be the midwife of the new baby. I also found this music:
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Rain-Forest-Pygmies-Recordings/dp/B00000228W
And the Ghost Dance here:
http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/berlhtml/lyric8.html
My daughter does healing "Sounding". She once told me of being in a group and one of the women was the daughter of a holocaust suvivor. She said the sound of the woman's state came to her, but it was so horrible she didn't know if she could sing it or if the woman could stand to hear it. Finally she felt she had to do it, and she did. A flood of emotion was released from the woman and she said it was the sound her mother never could make. Once the sound was made, healing followed.
My daughter can do the "tremolo". I've noticed that this sound that women make just...just cut's one in half? I just don't know how else to put it. It certainly does seem to penetrate one's body and reach every cell. What is comparable in white culture? It's there I suppose, but one must dig very deeply to the roots to find it.
Mariead has made some posts in this thread re the unfortunate practice of seeing the aborigional as the "noble savage". I have argued the same thing myself, and am in some agreement with her. But I do argue that a culture that is based on a "religion" of being of and with the earth is bound to be more kind and supporting of the earth, the earth being one's Mother (and the sun being one's Father).
Well said, Sue. When I envision the post-Capitalist world (which I wish I were going to live long enough to see), I see humans spending time taking care of, rather than exploiting, the non-human world. Scoring social points by how much they contribute to the natural world rather than how ruthlessly they rape and pillage it. A world of cooperation, not completely unlike the one the Amish have made for themselves.
When I lived in Germany in the '60s, I was struck by the different attitude Germans have toward nature. It might all have changed meanwhile, but back then nobody could legally cut down a tree without a forester's consent, nor shoot a non-human such as a deer, bear, or mountain sheep without the consent of a guide who was about half-veterinarian. The whole idea was to do the least harm possible, so a tree would be selected by the forester according to the use to be made of it, and the hunter's prey would if possible be an animal that was nearing the end of its life. The forest cover was huge, and there were clubs where people really, truly would get dressed up in boots, rucksacks, and hats with feathers on, and go off on a hike over hill and dale, singing the old songs as they went, to fetch up at a Gasthaus in the evening for a big dinner and a party. The Ruhrgebiet might have been an industrial disaster, but elsewhere in Germany Nature was respected and treated well.
We'd better get weaving, if we want to live.
"...the Tolowa lived here for 12,500 years, if you believe the myths of science."
I gave up reading this article when I read this BS. This is the same sort of crap that comes from extremist creationists, so anything else this deadbeat writes is immediately questionable. I had to double check if this article was published in The Orion or Onion Magazine.
Science does not deal in myths. Period. The scientific method selects a hypothesis that best fits the available data, that in turn must meet the rigors of experimental repeatability. This methodology does not, and has never been applicable to myths which are stories.
Derrick Jensen: Loser.
I am a chemist. I consider myself a scientist. Derrick's critique of science is a critique of the particular philosophy of science, it's underlying world view and it's interaction with, and ultimately domination of, the natural world. Science is as much a philosophy of domination over rather than a philosophy of cooperation with nature.
For a fuller understanding of his critique, which i think is valid and very insightful, read this interview:
http://www.counterpunch.org/smecker10282009.html
I see that the education of scientists in the realm of Science is analogous to the education of doctors in Medicine: one lacks a training of the fecundity of nature and the other lacks an understanding of nutrition and energy within the body.
And, ironically, Derrick Jensen was trained in the physical sciences as well, so his critique is that much more interesting.
Open your mind a little bit, and never presume you have all the answers. Any good scientist, in the best part of that tradition, would do this.
"Available data" is the operative concept here. It is science's hat tip ignorance that requires learning and to the mysteries that have no words yet - and may always defy language and utility on the human scale. Many 'laws' in science are ultimately revised and some debunked. Hence, a defacto, and fully respectful description of a mythology system.
"Authentic", ultimately, is not something that a human being or a human construct can be. Only the ultimate origin is "authentic" everything else is derived by nature of the universe (a bit more inclusive).
Otherwise, one is in essence claiming to be "the authentic creator" sorta kinda hyperbole.
kw
Science has given us a lot of insight and a lot of benefits, but ultimately, are we not in a 1000 story building where science just about understands the first couple of stories ? Science does not even understand how acupuncture works, because it just cannot measure this type of energy that acupuncture deals with. In my opinion, our current scientific understanding and approach was helpful to develop our Western civilisation, but at the same time, due to its limitations, it was incremental in producing the mess the planet is in. I am convinced that in 50 years - provided humanity develops into the right direction- we will have a completely different understanding of what science is and means. To achieve this, we will have to overcome a reductionist approach that is limited to our most basic senses. There are certainly other means of understanding and perceiving the world, better suited to the complexity of life. We might get to a kind of understanding similar to those tribes mentioned in the article. It would not be the same, but very different from today's limited and narrow "if I can touch it it exists" kind of science. So no reason to belittle a people who have managed to live on the same place sustainably for 12.500 years. Give the land into the hands of a couple of average Americans, it will be a wasteland within 20 years - all based and built on science.
Yeah, but science doesn't always get it right.Scientific theories come and go. Some turn out to be utter B/S-like phrenology, which was considered respectable science in certain circles in the mid-nineteeth century. Yes,my friend,there is faith-based science, and it's all around us.The trick is to discern the difference between the real thing, and the crap. If you were offended by the author's remark about "the myths of science", you should have sucked it up and read on.He writes a lot better than you,and calling him a "loser" is gratuitous stupidity.
Thank you ricardohead....my feelings exactly!
Clearly you have never taken any science courses.
Those hypotheses are, specifically, the myths that the experimentation is designed to "prove".
Great article--right down the pipe to my heart.
I left Gringolandia almost 20 years ago because I could not take any more of the carnage and mean-spirited destructiveness of the "dominant culture" there.
Gary Snyder has also written some wonderful pieces about the area in which the writer of this article lives--especially in his The Practice of the Wild and Back on the Fire.
This week Obomba called all the gringo-government-recognized indigenous tribes to DC to tell them that there was going to be a better relationship--symbolized with the opening of a Native People's embassy.
Another speech full of patent bullshit signifying the same old gringo double discourse.
Our lives--as well as life in general on this planet--has ALWAYS depended on listening to nature.
But Whitey knows better.
nativetongueredux--
you should know that NativeSon has been permanently blocked by CD---and it is precisely what he thought they would do.
He made a posting that was very inflamatory toward the 'Little Jewish Scumbag" that was redacting his postings when they were not to the liking of the "Jewish" censors at CD----I wonder who that could be?
Well he is laughing at all of the readers of CD who may believe the rhetoric of the site, but the administration @CD does not live up to its claims, nor do they place the importance on free speech as they claim; of course NativeSon never said anything that was not true, or was at least the thoughts of those who read his words.
But then he like you realize that it really is the 'gringos' ball and if you play with them and their ball, you have to play by there rules.
The strange thing about it all is that if you do not like someones words----dodn't listen to or read them.
Then NativeSon often wrote that he would be 'worried about a God that needed so much help from so many humans'; this would also go for the Jewish Screening board at CD.
As for me I will be disappointed, but I know Native Son in person, and he is a very fine friend to have.
Good Bye all.
Is this true about nativeSon? If so very sad indeed. his posts were lucid and generally right on the money. various posters are saying he has been banned for his blanket negativity about jews. this i do not know, but what is known, is that some viewed his acid tongued wizardry as inflammatory, while i saw it as intense passion for truth. verbal lambasting the jews is always a risky business. His and my points about the arrogance around viewing oneself as being special is the nature of ignorance. almost everyone thinks they are special in some way, but the jews are taught that they are superior. i asked one of my best friends in high school,who happened to be jewish , about his belief in being a chosen one by god, and he replied ,yes it is true we have been chosen by god to handle with certain aspects of society. I said, what is this aspect, and he said , money. We have been chosen to handle and control the money of the world. I dropped the matter and did not think of it again until 20 or 30 years later. This level of arrogance coupled with world wide victim status and excellent PR contributes to situations like the muting of NativeSon, and others.
I read NS's posts and there seems to be a difference in what you said happened and what happened. NS was a great guy and we all honor his posts and share his anger about what happened to the Native Americans as they lost their land. But at some point, he crossed the line by misclassifying all Jews when he should have directed his energy towards critiquing the zionists running the government of Israel along with the special interest zionist groups there and in America ruining the good name of Jews in addition to pushing for doing away with the Palestinians. I think I know which article you are referring to where some people including NS were going nuts showing their anger against all Jews which was wrong. jclientelle, JenniferBedingfield, and Siouxrose were the only ones who got it right when they tried to remind others that not all Jews are the same. I think Sioux said it best when she explained to chessgames56 how some Jews lost their sense of tolerance as a result of the damage the Holocaust did to their mentality. Not all Jews let their sadness turn into vengeance and they have been some of the strongest voices on the Left opposing the zionists unfairly targetting the Palestinians.
The word "gringo" is totally offensive and even NS opposed using that foul word. We're sorry for what happened to the Natives centuries ago and we wished our ancestors didn't do it but the damage is done and we're all trying to learn not to make such mistakes again. That's why most of us are here to be informed, inspire and be inspired, and motivate one another to push for change for the common good. Just getting angry about the past and telling us to pack up and leave is not right. We descendants didn't do this but we want to make it up by generating some peace, love, understanding, and tolerance to heal these wounds but we can't expect to accomplish this with too much fault finding and calling us "gringos".
I am sorry to hear what happened to NS but I hope he will learn to tone down his anger and come back reformed somewhere in the future. Good luck, best wishes, and God bless NS.
I am sad about NativeSon. I had commented several times about what I perceived as his bitter tone. However, he was kind to me in a personal way. I do not like that he has been blocked!!! A great way to learn and tolerate other points of view is thru conflict and argument. NativeSon has just as much right to his opinion as anyone. Perhaps some of the discussions he was involved in with others here on CD could reap mutual benefit.
I couldn't agree more with you Inanna, and Maxpayne. A little more tolerance all around and some respect for different points of view would be welcome.But since I seem to be in a fire-bombing mood today, I'll comment on the term 'Gringo' (obliquely, of course,as is my want) by quoting Charles Bukovsky on the subject of Mexico.He's talking about Neal Cassidy dying by the railroad tracks outside San Miguel de Allende.
"Mexico isn't a bad place because it is simply oppressed;Mexico is simply a bad place.Can't you see the desert animals watching? The frogs horned and simple,the snakes like slits of mens' minds,crawling, stopping,waiting,dumb under a dumb Mexican moon."
Was Bukovsky a Gringo? depends on your point of view.
From my point of view, Bukovsky was obviously a gringo. Cassidy, too.
But then, I have lived most of the time for the past 20 years in Mexico--and consider it to be a great place: wonderfully kind people with real warmth and a great sense of humor. The only thing really bad about it is the politicians and the oligarchs and narcos who buy them. There would be no poverty if folks put the brakes on the parasites.
The Mexican Revolution of 1910 was all about putting those brakes on--but it was never finished, as Carranza managed to have Zapata killed, and then Obregon killed Carranza and Villa. Zapata said, after he refused to sit in the presidential chair in December 1914: We should have burned the chair, to get rid of ambitions for power.
As for folks demanding tolerance, while shoving their dominant culture crap down minority throats: I think you know where you can take that crap.
Oops, duplicate. Bad connection today !
And good riddance. Too bad you missed your decade and two.
Vicious troll alert!
It's lunch time.I thought I'd scarf an antisemite.
There are no anti-semites on this board.
There are zionist trolls like you, and folks like me who support the semitic Palestinians 100%.
You have no shame.
Damn, you're back again. I must have blown my lunch.
How about blowing it all the way to Tel Aviv, troll?
I am very sorry, of course, to hear that, as NativeSon was one of the most lucid posters anywhere on the internet.
I have been banned and blocked so many times here that I lost count a long time ago.
One of the advantages of no longer owning a computer (I have used internet cafes since 2000 except when I have been given a computer onsite at one of my university consulting clients) is that they cannot permanently block me from posting.
I would like to keep in touch with NativeSon, but I suppose if I post my email here it will either be erased from the post or I will receive a shitload of hatemail from the host of trolls and "spiritual guides" who regularly post here.
Educability is an idea that comes to mind. The broiader the mind in connection with day to day life, the greater the educability quotient.
Someone once said that you can tell a lot about a society by how they regard their dead. I'd add spirit within/without, brothers, sisters, parents, grands, ancestors, neighbors, unknown persons whether they be flora fauna or otherwise....living or dead.
We shouldn't make the mistake Jensen does of supposing the aboriginal people were 'noble savages'. A comparatively tiny population of them (maybe 10K) hunted the American megafauna to extinction within the first few thousand years of human presence in the Americas. The humans obviously learned from that, but their raised consciousness was of little value to their erstwhile lunches.
Moral: it's *very* *very* easy to screw up with permanent consequences.
If MY people had truly screwed up with permanent consequences, there would have been no Turtle Island for YOUR people to invade, rape, pillage, massacre and look down your noses at.
Take your hatespeech and hypocritical justification and shove it up your south pole.
Do please read for understanding in future rather than for ammunition.
The extinction of the megafauna was a permanent consequence of the aboriginal American hunting practice. Accept reality.
>"The extinction of the megafauna was a permanent consequence of the aboriginal American hunting practice."
This argument is far from over. This extinction happened at the time of glacial retreat accompanied with a change from grasslands to forest, and perhaps it was a time of new diseases, as well.
I certainly wouldn't argue that there were no other factors involved. But, unlike the wooly mammoth in Europe, American species weren't so tightly adapted to a periglacial environment. Had there been no hunting, members of those species would still be around today. Fewer in number and further north probably, but definitely not extinct.
Mariead, you said: "We shouldn't make the mistake Jensen does of supposing the aboriginal people were 'noble savages'. A comparatively tiny population of them (maybe 10K) hunted the American megafauna to extinction within the first few thousand years of human presence in the Americas."
And: "Had there been no hunting, members of those species would still be around today."
That simply is not factual. The debate continues and most likely we never really will know for sure.
Also, while I agree that there can be a tendency to to turn the aboriginal peoples into "noble savages", it is not my impression that this author has done that at all. People that live close to the earth and experience both her joys and hardships are obviously going to experience the earth in a different manner than an industrialized population.
Do you have a citation for the idea that the cause of the extinction is still unknown and likely to remain so? I ask because I've never heard of any such thing. Without wanting to make the post-propter error, it's certainly true that the repeated temporal juxtaposition over thousands of years in different places is, at a minimum, suggestive.
I don't see much support for any other explanation. For example, this is both politicised-looking and embarrassingly circular, coming from a credentialed person:
"Overkill proponents have argued that these animals would still be around if people hadn't killed them and that ecological niches still exist for them. Those niches do not exist. Otherwise the herbivores would still be there."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/10/011025072315.htm
That guy's variously called an archaeologist and an anthropologist, but not an paleoecologist, so I'm not sure where his expertise comes from or how much credibility he'd have among paleoecologists. Certainly if that's an accurate quote, he needs to brush up on his logic at the very least!
At http://cpluhna.nau.edu/Biota/megafauna_extinctions.htm I can find 2 alternate proposals besides the hunter one: climate (which is suggested as a *reducer*, not an extinguisher) and one or more really virulent disease(s) that were hypothesised to have came over along with humans. That was untested in 1997 (no update).
So do you have anything?
I learned at an early age that folks who said "Conform to society" and "Accept reality" were fascist creeps--with NO exceptions.
Why is it that when someone suggest we look at hunter gatherer ways of life, the responses are ineviitably the same? Resistence to even consider. The arguments almost always look like:
"The author obviously hasn't considered that prehistoric humans wer just as violent as we are..." blah blah blah. Yep. Genocide and ecocide don't hold a candle to tribal warfare with primitive weapons. "Oh yea but what about the magafauna of north america? See? They wipe out species just like we do!" they declare with indignation.
Oh yeah, they destroyed the environment just as efficiently as industrial civilization. Fer sure. Not!
Jaysis. Are you for real? I mean these are the same arguments I hear every time I bring up hunter gather lifestyle and how it was so much better for life than what industrial civilzation is doing. I feel silly even haveing to say it but - civilization is killing everything. Hello? In comparison to some arguable anomalies in prehistoric instances.....why are you even talking? No really. For what purpose? To justify ourselves and our grave way of life? If that's not it, then what?
Derrick does not "make the mistake"..."of supposing the aboriginal people were 'noble savages'." If you have read his work you have misunderstood what it is about. However, supposing that producing plutonium, and the supposed violence that many indigenous cultures participated in as proof that humanity has always been violent and destructive is disingenous and dismissive at best.
And the "over kill" hypothosis is always trotted out. There also is an "overchill" hypothosis. So it's arguable. However again - this argument is distraction. So what if the overkill theory is 100 percent true? Are you saying that 200 species a day - the current rate of mass extinction - is equivalent? Really? Fooksake? Again I hafta ask...why are you arguing? What is the perceived threat? I mean here is a guy who is very concerned for life, and you are saying what again? That he has it wrong because supposed "noble savages" were really just savages? And who benefits from the story that hunter gathers were really terrible and that their way of life was really "nasty brutish and short"? Surely not the dominant culture benefits from that fable ("moral" an' awl...).
None of these arguments matter by the way. Your arguments only do what Derrick say they accomplish - ideology:
"Only the most arrogant and ignorant among us would say something that implies that all humans are destructive, and that the dominant (white) culture is the most destructive simply because somehow indigenous peoples around the world were too stupid to invent backhoes and chainsaws, too backward to dominate their human and nonhuman neighbors with the efficiency and viciousness of the dominant culture. They might even try to argue that the Tolowa weren’t actually living sustainably, even though they lived here for at least 12,500 years. But when 12,500 years of living in place won’t convince them, it becomes pretty clear that evidence is secondary, and that there are, rather, ideological reasons the person cannot accept that humans have ever lived sustainably."
Ultimately if one believes and argues that humans are inherently destructive, then you are rooted firmly in the position of being powerless to change anything. This root, gives flower to the ideology that we as a species are doing exactly what we are designed to do. Therefore, you need not resist the destruction and are actually fulfilling your destiny by participating in it.
And...this "man is inherently evil" argument dishonors those who lived and live a way of life in relationship with the natural world. It's really thematically judeo-christian....
Hobbes is dead.
That's surely an Olympic-record leap you made, from my saying (in effect) "let's not get silly and start thinking the aboriginal people have some sort of inhumanly perfect insight" to my being opposed to looking at the egalitarian, socialistic, low-impact gatherer-hunter (gatherers provide most of the food) way of life.
The fact is that they did hunt the megafauna to extinction when they arrived in the Americas. That's simple truth, and it does everyone a disservice to try to ignore it.
They also made other serious errors, as did my own people for the same reasons and with broadly the same consequences: they failed to unite against the incomers, preferring their ancient tribal animosities, and got taken to the cleaners.
Today, our 'tribes', the factions of the working class, are making the same @#$%! mistakes AGAIN. We sit around bickering, playing status games at CD, and we're getting taken to the cleaners again and again and endlessly again. What will it take to wise us up?
Let's accept reality, shall we? The only way we will ever change anything to our advantage is by understanding what the current state is and how we got here.
It's not a leap.
"let's not get silly and start thinking the aboriginal people have some sort of inhumanly perfect insight"
You're the only one who said anything like this. In my mind it's a straw man argument - you say someone is getting silly and thinks indigenous people were perfect - "the noble savage myth" - and then you argue against it.
Totally detracting,deflecting,and diverting from Derrick's point -
Why not look to those who knew/know how to live in the world without fucking it up? Period. That's his point.
Why not look to those who knew/know how to live in the world without fucking it up? Period. That's his point.
-----------------------------
But they *DIDN'T* know, the proof being that they hunted the American megafauna to extinction almost immediately. And that's my point.
The aboriginal Americans are not a different species. They're us, just as the !Kung San, the Ainu, the Jivaro headhunters, the Maori cannibals, the Mongol Hordes, and the people who stripped Easter Island and Iceland bare are us.
It's the worst sort of immature, romantic nitwittery to take an entire group of people and make up stories about how perfect they are. Which is what I'm objecting to in Jensen's screed.
Mariead, you continue to repeat that "they hunted the American megafauna to extinction almost immediately". Using the same ScienceDaily site that you offered, note the articles to the right, and note how each theory states a different opinion. Or, search "megafauna extinction" at that site and you will find the same thing. Besides the climate change theory there is also the theory of a giant comet explosion - PBS (perhaps it was the "Nature" program) has had a piece on this, and it was convincing as well.
But let's just say you are correct - even still it can not be said that it was ignorance and greed that caused the extinction. Considering how difficult it was to hunt down their prey, I doubt very much that there was any wanton killing. To kill for sport just was not part of their way of life.
We do know that all of life was viewed differently. For instance here is the song that Black Elk saw/heard the sun sing just after his Great Vision:
"With visible face I am appearing.
In a sacred manner I appear.
For the greening earth a pleasantness I make.
The center of the nation's hoop I have made pleasant.
With visible face, behold me!
The four-leggeds and two-leggeds, I have made them to walk;
The wings of the air, I have made them to fly.
With visible face I appear.
My day, I have made it holy."
It seems to me that in a Nature religion such as this, "sin" would be to harm any/all of nature as opposed to the predominant religions of the white race where sin was thought of as harming only other people, and only the other people within one's own tribe at that.
Mairead said:
"The aboriginal Americans are not a different species. They're us, just as the !Kung San, the Ainu, the Jivaro headhunters, the Maori cannibals, the Mongol Hordes, and the people who stripped Easter Island and Iceland bare are us.
It's the worst sort of immature, romantic nitwittery to take an entire group of people and make up stories about how perfect they are. Which is what I'm objecting to in Jensen's screed."
Exactly Mairead,
Slavery and Genocide didn't start with the Mayflower. It was around millions of years earlier as part of Homo sapiens genetic heritage. Examples are the destruction of Homo erectus and Homo neanderthalus. The myth that tribal druids left no ecological footprint prior to Europeans showing up is nothing more than unsubstantiated folk lore. The fossil record is clear. Natives wiped out whole families of flora and fauna way before 1595 Roanoke. Natives enslaved and tortured and raped and murdered women and children according to both the Colonial written record and the archeological record. And nobody wants to talk about old Kennewick Man do they?: a 30,000 year old European Man found in the Columbia river. That's what? About 12,000 years before the Clovis people of North America showed up? So, it's quite possible, the Native Americans stole North America from a small tribe of Europeans. But nobody's going to face up to that one. That's about as popular a subject as the genocide going on right now in Gaza and Pakistan. Drones racking up an 80 percent civilian casualty rate. For an oil pipeline! For Bectel and Unical and Haliburtin profits. Shame on you Corporate Communists for opposing the Land of Thomas Jefferson. Shame on you for soiling the democracy he put in place.
Most Americans want this war stopped. Shame on you who side with Corporate Communism!
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
And shame on Thomas Jefferson for the democracy he put in place as well! For in order to put his democracy in place he needed to get rid of the existing one, and he had no qualms about that at all. From wikipedia:
Jefferson's expectation was that by assimilating them into an agricultural lifestyle and stripping them of self-sufficiency, they would become economically dependent on trade with white Americans, and would thereby be willing to give up land that they would otherwise not part with, in exchange for trade goods or to resolve unpaid debts.[93] In an 1803 letter to William Henry Harrison, Jefferson wrote:
To promote this disposition to exchange lands, which they have to spare and we want, for necessaries, which we have to spare and they want, we shall push our trading uses, and be glad to see the good and influential individuals among them run in debt, because we observe that when these debts get beyond what the individuals can pay, they become willing to lop them off by a cession of lands.... In this way our settlements will gradually circumscribe and approach the Indians, and they will in time either incorporate with us a citizens or the United States, or remove beyond the Mississippi. The former is certainly the termination of their history most happy for themselves; but, in the whole course of this, it is essential to cultivate their love. As to their fear, we presume that our strength and their weakness is now so visible that they must see we have only to shut our hand to crush them, and that all our liberalities to them proceed from motives of pure humanity only. Should any tribe be foolhardy enough to take up the hatchet at any time, the seizing the whole country of that tribe, and driving them across the Mississippi, as the only condition of peace, would be an example to others, and a furtherance of our final consolidation.[93]
gandydancer,
Jefferson was far from perfect, but tribal migratory hunter-gatherer lifestyle has vanished in every corner of the earth, save maybe New Guinea, and parts of Africa. It just takes too much land. When tribes migrated North for the summer, (abandoning their lands in the south) Georgia Speculators (settlers, just like the West Bank) moved in and homesteaded it despite George Washington's treaty agreement not to do that. The failure of Georgia to obey the treaty is partly what caused the Articles of Confederation to be abandoned in favor of a much stronger central government (which we suffer under today.)
We are the new Indians, our houses being stolen by banks who secret bid on them for mere dollars after we spend 20 years working on them.
The predatory nature of the species is the problem. This good-tribe/bad nation oversimplification, just leads to polarization and war imho, then the other side results to force to counter e.g., "Good Israel, Bad Palestinians." All groups of humans and empires tend to act in such a manner. The answer is to abandon the Empire and save the Democracy (as Great Britian finally realized).
Jefferson had the right idea. His solution was a "one state solution": assimilate or be cast out. If this was done in the middle east, we wouldn't have a nuclear armed Israel right now.
That's what I think.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
<"assimilate or be cast out."
good bye diversity, hello Monsanto
Put a sock in it.
You are just hammering out the same old tired pap that nobody with any interest in preserving life on this planet has any interest in hearing.
If MY people had not been good stewards of Turtle Island YOUR invasive hordes would have starved to death before they even reproduced.
You are just here to derail the thread with your racist rants.
Get a life--on another planet, preferably.
it's not about different species. it's about different cultures, different ways of viewing the natural world. capitalism and modern science have trained us to be incredibly arrogant, and given us the power and the lack of insight to destroy this planet.
and more importantly, this culture *knows* now what we are doing to 50,000 species a year; namely, making them go extinct. and do you see any real movement to stop this??
nothing will stop this system of death and destruction unless it is forced to do so, either by it's own stupidity and greed resulting in a collapse, or by a social movement that does more than talk about it.
"Accept reality": the fascist dictate.
"What would a society look like that was planning on being in that particular place five hundred years from now?"
Only 500 years??? At a minimum, This person's USAn attitudes are showing. There are European cities and farmlands more than 5 times that old. but we need to go even beyond that. I think we need to be considering what our actions are going to do to humans or any other sentient dwellers of this planet millions of years from now.
The geologic record of past disruptive events suggests that what we decide as a world community over the next few years will have major repurcussions extending over several millions of years, and will likely alter the whole evolutionary path for life on earth for the remaining time the sun-earth system remains suitable for complex life - about 600-900 million years.
Like it or not, humanity has become a geologic force influencing the path of life on earth - right up there with asteroids, supervolcanos, and the plate-tectonic shuffling of the continents and oceans.
Of all my time, I've wasted in school as a medeocre student, the grasp of deep-time from my geology education is the one precious thing I will always be greteful for. Thank-you Profs McLean, Sinha, and especially Wally Lowry!
Who was it who said: "We are as gods, so we might as well get good at it"?
I don't know what's wrong with the 500 year vision, that might fit in with the Iroquois 7 generations down the line thing.
The making of decisions with 7 generations in mind was not unique to the Iroquois Confederacy.
On the other side of Turtle Island, in fact, Chief Seattle said the same thing.
A famous anthropologist (which one eludes me at the moment) living among people of the jungle was collecting testimony of a subject about making the hunting party trek who offered the sage advice, "If an animal talks to you, pay no attention. They are notorious liars." He thought that perhaps this person was a little bit off his nut, so he asked his main western-educated contact about the animals talking. The man assured him that yes, indeed, the animals talk, but everyone knows that they are notorious liars (tricksters), so everyone ignores what they say. Living in nature gives all persons utterly different ideas about what constitutes reality. If, for instance, one were to inquire at some remote Indonesian village about the directions to the next village, one might find oneself directed to a nearby large tree inhabited by orangutans.
ClassAct, Might you be thinking of Ralph Metzner?
I THINK it was Peter Metcalf.
I can speak to Raven being a liar and trickster in the Northwest Coast myths.
Raven also brought light to a dark world--by stealing the sun, moon and stars and putting them in the sky.
Each of us has his/her shadow--which we project onto others.
Great comment nativetongueredux! Raven is a guide to the shadow self. Unless we accept the dark with the light, we will always be running from the dark and afraid to face that which is dark within ourselves. And yes, we then project it onto others.
When I was young, in a number of ways, I usually felt "outside" of the "western" traditions within which I was being raised. I was drawn to solitary experience of the natural world. It was difficult because I ALWAYS kept going back to the sense that it was a flaw in me.
Nature kept trying to reach me. Little hints and huge miracles finally, Quietly, broke through the walls of my mental self containment.
I still feel very much as an outsider of this "culture" within which I live, but now I know it is the culture that has failed to grow and I am "blessed" (even as I still feel frustration at the inability of those around me).
It is my relationship with the earth and the wonders of its natural existence which restores and heals me. I will go out in my garden (which is mine only to the extent that it is as much the garden of the birds, trees, shrubs, rocks, shrews....) and often, at night, I am so humbled by the air that I find myself whispering "thank you" to the trees as I lightly touch them.
I think it was probably the personal experiences with birds in the rough regions on the edges of "civilization" which opened my mind. The diversity of avian intelligence and logic wherein they could survive against the onslaught is amazing. Each species uniquely making the most of the situations. Many displaying a playfully serious intensity in their eyes and actions.
Benjamin Franklin had a sense of this when he opposed the use of the "Bald" Eagle as THE national bird because he knew that the label was merely proof of our vanity and greed and proof that we did not know what we were doing.
It is very sad to me that so many people can accept the idea of angels (which are obviously an expression of envy) and simultaneously know so extremely little about a "Chickadee". On September 11, 2001, tearfully pathetic, I apologized to and sought solace from the beautiful migrants in the trees and air in my garden.
I love you too birdbrain! Sometimes I contemplate or empathize with what it must be like to be a bird. Aside from being able to fly which is really cool.....think of how hard it would be to have to find little tidbits of food all day long to survive! Especially in this world that is infringing upon birds natural habitats so ruthlessly.
I appreciate what you wrote. The 9/11 birds....I never thought of that. Sad. I wonder if any birds stayed in Iraq or Afghanistan? If not, how sad for them....the people that is.
I totally am with you on the "outsider" feeling concerning western culture. I know Native Son would agree...Western culture is anathema to Nature.