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TechnoratiWhen It Comes to Palestine and Israel, the US Simply Doesn't Get It
Biden and Palin hid like rabbits from the centre of the Middle East earthquake
Palestinians ceased to exist in the United States on Thursday night. Both Joe Biden and Sarah Palin managed to avoid the use of that poisonous word. "Palestine" and "Palestinians" - that most cancerous, slippery, dangerous concept - simply did not exist in the vice-presidential debate. The phrase "Israeli occupation" was mercifully left unused. Neither the words "Jewish colony" nor "Jewish settlement" - not even that cowardly old get-out clause of American journalism, "Jewish neighbourhood" - got a look-in. Nope.
Those bold contenders of the US vice-presidency, so keen to prove their mettle when it comes to "defence", hid like rabbits from the epicentre of the Middle East earthquake: the existence of a Palestinian people. Sure, there was talk of a "two-state" solution, but it would have mystified anyone who didn't understand the region.
There was even a Biden jibe at George Bush for pressing on with "elections" - again, the adjective "Palestinian" went missing - that produced a Hamas victory. But Hamas appeared to exist in never-never land, a vast landscape that gradually encompassed all the vast and black deserts that stretch, in the imagination of US politicians, from the Mediterranean to Pakistan.
"Pakistan's (nuclear) missiles can already hit Israel," Biden thundered. But what was he talking about? Pakistan has not threatened Israel. It's supposed to be on our side. Both vice-presidential candidates seemed to think that our ally in the "war on terror" was now turning into an ally of the axis of evil. Even Islam didn't get a run for its money.
Indeed, one of the funniest reports of the week, yet another investigation of Obama's education, came from the Associated Press news agency. The would-be president, the Associated Press announced, had attended a Muslim school but hadn't "practised" Islam.
What on earth did this mean, I asked myself? Would AP have reported, for example, that McCain had attended a Christian school but hadn't "practised" Christianity? Then I got it. Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!
Travelling across the US this week - from Seattle to Houston to Washington and then to New York - I kept bumping into the results of America's White House-induced terror. A well-educated, upper-middle-class lady at a lunch turned to me and expressed her fear that Islam "wanted to take over America". When I suggested that this was pushing things a bit, she informed me that "the Muslims have already taken over France".
How does one reply to this? It's a bit like being informed by a perfectly sane and rational person that Martians have just landed in Tennessee. So I used the old Fisk trick when confronted by ravers of the "admit George Bush did 9/11" school. I looked at my watch, adopted a shocked expression and shouted: "Gotta go!"
But seriously. There was Biden on Thursday night, telling us that along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan - he was referring, of course, to the old frontier drawn by Sir Mortimer Durrand which most Pushtuns (and thus all Taliban) regard as fictional - "there have been 7,000 madrassas built ... and that's where bin Laden lives and we will go at him if we have actually (sic) intelligence".
Seven thousand? Where on earth does this figure come from? Yes, there are thousands of religious schools in Pakistan - but they're not all on the border. In another extraordinary bit of myth-making, Obama's man told us that "we kicked the Hizbollah out of Lebanon" - which is totally untrue.
And, of course, Israel - a word that must be uttered, repeatedly, by all US candidates - became the compass point of the entire Middle East, this "peace-seeking nation ... our strongest and best ally in the Middle East" (quoth Palin) of whom "no one in the United States Senate has been a better friend...than Joe Biden" (quoth Biden).
Israel was "in jeopardy" if America talked to Iran, Palin revealed. "We have got to assure them that we will never allow a second Holocaust." Thus was the corpse of Hitler dug up yet again - just as McCain resurrected the shadow of the Second World War last week when he blathered on about Eisenhower's sense of responsibility before D-Day. That Israel can quite adequately defend herself with 264 nuclear warheads went, of course, unmentioned, because acknowledging Israel's real power undermines the image of a small and vulnerable country relying on America for its defence.
Israelis deserve security. But where were the promises of security for Palestinians? Or the sympathy which Americans would immediately grant any other occupied people? Absent, needless to say. For we must gird ourselves for the next struggle against world evil in Pakistan.
Biden actually demanded a "stable" government in Islamabad, which was a little bit hypocritical only a few days after US troops had crossed its sovereign border to shoot up a Pakistani house allegedly used by the Taliban. As General David Petraeus told The New York Times this week, "The trends in Afghanistan have been in the wrong direction ... wresting control of certain areas from the Taliban will be very difficult."
It's an odd situation. Obama and Biden want to close down Iraq and re-conquer Afghanistan. The Palin College of Clichés characterised this as "a white flag of surrender in Iraq" while continuing to warn of the dangers of Iran, the name of whose loony president - Ahmadinejad - defeated McCain three times in last week's pseudo-debate.
But it's the same old story. All we have learned in America these past two weeks, to quote Joan Littlewood's Oh! What a Lovely War, is that the war goes on.
86 Comments so far
Show AllRobert Wales said:
"As long as we cannot speak openly about Israeli policy because we fear being branded antisemitic we can never honestly approach this issue."
I don't get why we (USAns) are so sensitive to the "anti-semite" accusation even to the extent that we can't discuss a nation that receives billions of our tax dollars every year. And you can also add to that total what we spend on bribing Egypt in order to appease them and prevent them from remaining at war with Israel.
Two points:
1)"Israel" is not the same as "Jew." Nor is AIPAC even likely representative of most American Jews.
2)We weren't responsible for the holocaust. The way we tiptoe around this issue, you'd think we were Germans (hehe). Whether we intended it or not (not), we're one of the reasons Hitler didn't get to kill more Jews in Europe. Doesn't THAT at least buy us a little freedom of national discussion without being shutdown by an inapplicable epithet?
And why no love for the Slavic people? Are their lives worth less? Hitler hated them, too. Millions of them, possibly twice as many, were ethnically cleansed. And everyone still seems to hate gypsies - no compassion is forthcoming for them, either.
No gods, no kings
PANGOLIN, are you insulting me? If so, make it clear! You seem barely literate. I'm clearly wasting my time on this site; it's mostly full of badly educated individuals who just want to abuse others.
But that's what politics mainly is: one dirty, filthy, opinionated group trying to dominate others.
Get rid of the god complex, that means ALL, christian and otherwise. Likewise the power of the jews, political and otherwise and ALL nuclear weapons. Only then will there be peace. There's alot of truth in Fisks article despite the use of rhetoric. One day when we're choking for lack of clean air, swamped by floods and pestilence brought about by the casual rape of this planet and it's resources. Then it won't be Israels survival which is Oh Soooh important, it will be our own in total.
for an interesting take on why we seem to have such a 'god complex' in the first place (why is that particular question NEVER asked ?) try reading Slave Species of god by Michael Tellinger . . . until we start to grok our genetic history we are fated to keep acting out patterns imprinted during the abused childhood of homo sapiens . . .
As a humanist and an atheist your comment is non-productive. It causes a casual reader to understand that this wealth of thought on CD is about irrational hatred, Jew killing, Christian eating, left wing aliens. Which it is not. While I haven't seen to much from humanists here, I see lots of comments from self described progressives carrying about their baggage of thought. Most of it ill informed tripe bundled into conflicting concepts of technology, politics and something about being green. And the occasional spiritual wannabe guru tossing about his or hers' bandwidth in Nirvana. Peace, of course, is the food staple of the intellect here, but the shallowness of thought is a denominator of value. Especially, the plastic bag covering the bigots words, without the advantage of a ziplock. So these words spillout all over the place like a child spills cereal and milk.
These are the people who choke on rhetoric, confusing it with unbreathable air, floods and pestilence and the right to exist of anyone different. They are the ones who choke on humanity, that divide with false cause.
Get rid of it.
Paul Siemering
True we don't get it, but it's because the u.s. does not want to get it.What's been going on in Palestine the last 50 years is beyond horrible. It's actually so bad it is even worse, on a daily basis, than what the u.s. is doing in Iraq. Meaner, nastier, more relentlessly brutal. And it is getting worse, now with the walls. Of course the argument could be made that what the Israelis do the u.s. also does, because all the ordinance in all the dead Palestinians sys "made in usa"on it. Still every u.s. politician must constantly insist she/he is the best friend Israel ever had.
we've been told this is realpolitik but i wonder. What would happen if somebody running for office got up and spoke the truth?
Somebody has, and continues to speak to this issue. Ralph Nader, but it is difficult to caste your vote for this single issue, when the nation is picking between the lesser of two evils.
When It Comes to Palestine and Israel, the US Simply Doesn't Get It
Of course you can't , however the rest of the world sees it thus
We have heard that the Chinese and Japanese nations are lobbying hard to have some Vietnamese people come and take over Fisk's state with Chinese and Japanese arms and money
Then send him and the people of his state packing to Mexico and Canada , that is because Buddha says. so
Lets try another Scenario I hear China and Japan are lobbying hard to have the following Native Clans and Nations In the South East reinstated in their respective God given Lands And all other peoples must be expunged from these area
Southeast USA
Includes the Following States
Alabama | Florida | Georgia | Mississippi | South Carolina
CLANS AND NATIONS TO BE REINSTATED
Acolapissa Acuera Alabana Amacano Alibamu Apalachee Apaiachicola Atsina
Bayogoula Bayougoula Biloxi Calusa Caparaz Capinans Catawba Chakchiuma Chatot Chactoo Chatot Cherokee Chesapeake Chiaha Chine Christanna Indians Choula Chickasaw Chitamacha Choctaw Congaree Creek Cusabo Eno Grigra Guacata Guale Hathawekela (Absentee Shawnee) Hitchiti Houma Icaful Jeags Karankawa Karok Kasihta Keyauwee Koasati Koroa Lumbee Macapiras Manahoac Matchotic Mikasuki Mobile Moctobi Monacan Muklasa Muskogee Nappissa Napochi Natchez Nottaway Ocale Occaneechi Oçita Oconee Ofo Okelousa Onathequa Onatheaqua Osochi Pascagoula Pawokti Pedee Pensacola Pohoy Powhatan Quapaw Saluda Santee(1) Santee(2) Saturiba Seminole Sewee Shakori Shawnee Sissipahaw Sugeree Tacatacuru Taensa Taposa Tekesta Tequesta Timucua Family Tohome Tunica Tuscarora Tuskegee Tutelo Ucita Utina Waccamaw Wateree Waxhaw Winyaw Yamasee Yuchi Yufera Yui Yustaga
Also these new Nations must not be Secular they must be controlled by their individual religions as ordained by their Gods and we the Chinese and Asian peoples will defend them with our guns and money
Now I would like to see who would be the terrorist and who would be the freedom fighters . Lets see how the Freedom loving America Peoples would respond to that !!!!
You are more than welcome to pursue this reestablishment of native people onto their original land and habitat. My own origins are mixed up with the usual European genetics,
but I have strong spiritual ties with my people, the Iroquois, specifically the Mohawk. I would think that my genetic history would be similar to your named tribal descendents. They may be hard to locate without extensive genetic testing. Never the less your impulse to correct what is obviously the genocide of native north americans is perfectly normal. I would like to also. I would love to tear down the concrete, steel, glass, and asphalt travesties that represent this culture of false thinking. I mean, just what are we going to do with all this false culture? Millions of automobiles, hundreds of trillions of tons of concrete, steel, etc.? We could only form so many fish habitats with it. Eventually it would pollute the ocean worse than what it is, if we were to dump it all. Sure, if this could happen, most more pure European stock would take a freighter back to the old country or where ever their genetic trace originated. But still who is going to clean up this fucking mess? Face it. If you allow the South East tribes their day in the sun, you are going to face the rest of the tribes re-occupying the continent.But the fact remains , who is going to clean this crap up? I don't want to live in the hulk of a condo with no electricity, water, etc. I want all this white man trash gone. I want my transportable tipee, plentiful game and fish. I want to run my hand through tall green grass, sunlight reflecting off morning dew. You are not giving me anything like this. You are giving me conflicting ideas for your own advantage.
I will fight you with my own weapons for my own reasons for freedom. Don't come here with good intentions like the fucking american/european corporate pigs with lipstick.
"I want all this white man trash gone. I want my transportable tipee, plentiful game and fish. I want to run my hand through tall green grass, sunlight reflecting off morning dew."
We cannot turn back history, but we should feel the depth of what has happened in order to do what is right in the future. I look at New York harbor and imagine how beautiful it must have been before the Europeans came. I can imagine the grief of those expelled from lovely Tennessee or the Montana Rockies and plains, where you can feel the power of the world all around. Now it is highways, fences, fast food and property laws, casinos. It cannot be restored.
The Palestinians have even more recent memory of quiet villages and olive groves in which families took their humanity and way of life for granted. They have traditions of culture and modern educational achievement. Now they are driven out, hounded, humiliated and placed in "reservations". Ahmadinejad at least understands the emotional trauma of these displaced people. That is the starting point.
Joe
Oh we get it alright. We're just not going to admit that we know what's going on. This kind of thing happens in miniature in small-town America all the time. The football team has a winning season. Two weeks before the playoff game that will send the team to state the quarterback rapes a fellow high school student. Not somebody important but a pretty girls whose family isn't well off or well connected. Everybody ignores the girls complaints despite the visible bruises. Her "friends" hang up on her. The DA arrests her brother on a trumped up charge. Her dad gets laid off from his survivl job and the feed depot.
America is ALL about ignoring rapists as long as the home team is winning. Ask Sara Palin. We're not about to jinx our run because we lost a few games. We also arent talking about how the rapist-quarterbacks dad seems to have a lot of money from that bank he operates either. The bank that just got bailed out. Don't jinx the team dammit.
Fighting the forces of rather dim lighting wherever they may be found!!
"America is ALL about ignoring rapists as long as the home team is winning"
Partially true but what about instances like the Duke Lacross team and the false accusations of rape by the prosecutor who just wanted to curry favor with the black voters just to get reelected?
"Progressives" just believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. I try to look at both sides and make up my own mind.
False accusations are horrible enough to be forbidden in one of the ten commandments. However, for every false accusation, there are many unreported rapes and women who are belittled when they try to report. In fact, there is a case of an eleven year old girl who was imprisoned in juvenile hall for being a prostitute. Do you imagine she came from a high status white family?
Joe
What 'false accusations' by the prosecutor? What 'currying of favor' with black voters? You sound like you think justice is served by the courts and laws of this confabulation of shitheads termed a democratic republic. Are you another po' white boy looking through jaundiced lenses making his mind fit his prejudices according to a one sided coin? MMM?
I would think such a talented mind such as yours being able to pick out one instance out of, what, hundreds of thousands of vengeful, non-judicated hangings, murders by shotgun, church burnings, planned parenthood bombings would be gainfully employed performing some socially constructive job.
But, alas, it would appear not.
"What 'false accusations' by the prosecutor?"
The ones that got him fired come to mind.
This is the one issue I've been following for so many decades I just throw my hands in the air and wish to God or Tao or Darwin that these people could learn to live in peace ASAP. So much raw evil radiates into the world from the fierce, unremitting hatred of so many of the Jews and Palestinians for each other. Hypocrites on all sides pile onto and feed off of this hate. Weapons industries grow obscenely off of it. The worst nut-cases of all the religions involved thrive on it. Both Palestinians and Jews proclaim their belief in one God and should understand that if there is one God then all humankind are that God's children. But this excuse and that exceptionalism, bla-bla-bla... For me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when a young right-wing orthodox Jewish man killed Yitzhak Rabin. I remember how hopeful things were beginning to sound under Rabin, and the abrupt shock of his murder and the words of his wife and daughter after his assassination. It's been downhill on a bullet train in Israel and the Occupied Territories ever since.
Now recently we have the spectacle of Olmert saying he would have preferred to give back the West Bank, etc., lands seized in '67 to the Palestinians--now that he's no longer an office holder who has to protect his political hide from all the partisans. Too little and too late.
Such blind stupidity and focus on militarism is destroying both Israel and the U.S.
This is the one issue I've been following for so many decades I just throw my hands in the air and wish to God or Tao or Darwin that these people could learn to live in peace ASAP. So much raw evil radiates into the world from the fierce, unremitting hatred of so many of the Jews and Palestinians for each other. Hypocrites on all sides pile onto and feed off of this hate. Weapons industries grow obscenely off of it. The worst nut-cases of all the religions involved thrive on it. Both Palestinians and Jews proclaim their belief in one God and should understand that if there is one God then all humankind are that God's children. But this excuse and that exceptionalism, bla-bla-bla... For me, the straw that broke the camel's back was when a young right-wing orthodox Jewish man killed Yitzhak Rabin. I remember how hopeful things were beginning to sound under Rabin, and the abrupt shock of his murder and the words of his wife and daughter after his assassination. It's been downhill on a bullet train in Israel and the Occupied Territories ever since.
Now recently we have the spectacle of Olmert saying he would have preferred to give back the West Bank, etc., lands seized in '67 to the Palestinians--now that he's no longer an office holder who has to protect his political hide from all the partisans. Too little and too late.
Such blind stupidity and focus on militarism is destroying both Israel and the U.S.
I always enjoy reading Robert Fisk. I would take issue though with calling Ahmadinejad "loony" as that dips the credibility of any writing towards the tabloid level. I am sure we'd all find plenty to disagree about with Ahmadinejad and certainly he is a bit of a loose cannon but most of what he says has logic behind it and is well thought out, unlike some of the emotional and duplicitous ranting of western politicians. By the time anything he says has gone through the filter of Western political media it is distorted and/or taken out of context.
Where Ahmadinejad could be described as "loony" or at least deluded is with the second coming equivalent. In that at least he has plenty of company with the likes of Palin, Bush cartel and Harper et al who appear firm believers in Armageddon in their lifetimes and their special individual importance and contribution to the whole exercise.
I believe there should be a distinct mental condition given to describe this mix of delusion, grandeur and suppression of rational thought process. Politicians should be tested both for it and the clinical definition of psychopathy and rejected if found positive for either of the debilitating and dangerous conditions.
Aside from keeping power and greed in check, two other things are needed immediately for the sanity of the world:
Number one is a little less of this polarised view of everything so prevalent in all these campaign speeches. This idiotic binary lens that refracts every view into just two states, black-white, good-evil, for us or against us etc. The world does not exist in this dichotomy; it is a full spectrum of colours including grey.
Number two, and history has taught us the wisdom of this, religion should be kept out of politics; religion should not be allowed as a tool of power or an offensive weapon used so predictably against an identifiable country or dissenting individuals..
Why? Because anything, and I do mean anything, can be taken from religion -distorted, re-interpreted, extended and repackaged for the faithful – who have surrendered themselves completely to those above with delusions or designs of grandeur who clawed their way to the top.
One of these days Robert Fisk is actually ending up with a medal for his bravery to tell the truth about the US's morally bankrupt foreign policy.
fuck, let's just move our government to Tel Aviv and be done with it.
as long as the USA continues to support Israel with WMD and billions$ there won't be peace in most parts of the world. Bring in the nuke inspectors to Israel and show the world what they realy are. If they refuse then put sanctions against them just like Iran. Kick them out of the UN would be my first step.
Good thesis Mr. Fisk, and certainly true. But there are a few errors:
#1: You imply that just because Obama attended a Muslim school, he must have indulged in Islam? Do you know how many straight A Muslims attend Catholic schools, managing not to take part in the Catholic religion? Vice versa for Buddhists, atheists, Sikhs, etc etc et al?
#2: Anti-9/11 Conspiracy Theorist, I see. Bottom line, this Bin Laden/Al Qaeda/Evil Islamic Fundemantalist thing the White House cooked up is BS. I believe that because I don't think Bin Laden would have/has achieved anything for his cause by flying airplanes into American buildings. Clearly it's brought him and his clan nothing but trouble and it's screwing up the environment. Also, I find it convenient how quickly it was decided that he did it when no evidence recovered from the scene was sufficient to solidifying the idea. The whole thing was a bad tactical move, UNLESS you're a conservative with a hatred of everything Islamic looking for a good scape-goat to propel your fiendish dreams of finishing the job the Crusaders failed, conquer the Muslim world and assimilate everyone's resources just like a good Borg would. That's the plan that appears to be in motion, unless there's gunk on my Elucidating Loupe of Truth.
#3: With the past 8 years in mind, I wouldn't call Ahmedinejad a loon. I'm not Iranian but calling the leader of another country that has been ravaged by our own insane policies in the past a nut is...well..a trifle hypocritical. Regarding pandering to Israel every five minutes, let's remember that our currently failing economic system--you know, the one that relies on interest to screw everyone and profit the few and the rich?--was implemented by modern (I won't say "Jew" because as a Jew I refuse to be identified with these people) Zionists.
Biden got a lot of his facts wrong, (such as implying that a Madrasah was something entirely different from an islamic school...it's the arabic word for school. *facepalm*) and pretty much said nothing new. I didn't expect either of them to say anything particularly controversial or important, but Biden especially disappointed me. If he and Obama won't say anything that speaks to drastically ending the dreadful situation Bush created in the Middle East, and won't say a peep about drastically changing our failing economic system, why should they get my vote. They're no more profound than left-leaning Republicans and I want nothing to do with them.
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I agree with political insurgent and jclientelle.
I much admire Robert Fisk in general, but for all of his obvious learning, experience, and sophisticated understanding and analysis of the Middle East, he does have a maddening proclivity for peppering his topical writing with dismissive cheap shots, e.g. dismissing Ahmedinijad as a "loon", or 9-11 skeptics as "ravers".
Incidentally, I'm no Obama supporter-- far from it-- but, like Fisk, I view the issue of his early education as a red herring. It seems straightforward enough to accept that the young Obama was exposed to the teachings of Islam-- but this hardly makes the case that his exposure was comparable to that of a foundling placed in the care of Jesuits, who boasted of their skill at indoctrinating youth. For the sake of argument, even if it were true that Obama was "immersed" in the teachings of Islam... so what?
I haven't read Obama's celebrated memoirs, but from the Jeremiah Wright contretemps I gather that Obama has been a practicing Christian during his adult life. It's a shame that Obama and/or his handlers feel compelled to inoculate him against the parochial Amerikan xenophobia that presumably regards Obama's attendance at an Islamic school as a threat, either because it renders Obama susceptible to being an "Islamofascist-lover", or that he himself is an as Islamofascist "Manchurian Candidate".
Many good points. I would like to repeat the fact that Madrasa is nothing but a school. Someone I know went to a Christian Madrasa in Beirut when growing up. That word is always used in a scary tone of voice. Are we fourth graders?
The other is about Ahmadinejad. He is certainly not my cup of tea, but the main attacks against him are not motivated by deep concern for gay people or for secular democracy in Iran. He is being attacked because he stands up and criticizes American and Israeli imperialism in the region. Iran has no nuclear weapons and Ahmadinejad's talk against Israel is philosophical, not backed up by the ability to do harm.
(His philosophical point about the settlers coming in to take the land away from the indigenous people has a great deal of validity, both here and in Israel. However it does not suggest a viable solution. The only logical conclusion from what he says is that all the Isreali Jews should go back where they came from. Apply the same logic to Europeans in the United States and you see how it is both historically justified and completely unworkable. You cannot reverse history, only give people a better chance for life going forward.)
People do not have to be angels to deserve their human rights. Every country has its right and left, its intelligent and stupid leaders. That does not mean we should bomb them. Our approach to Iran and all countries should keep in mind the effect on say a three year old girl living there.
Joe
America Just Doesn't Get It! says Fisk. Let's face it, America just doesn't get anything.
It must be something in the water or could it be evangelical religions? Perhaps it's in the air or perhaps it's the waving flags that bedazzle and confuse. I've got it: it must be Hollywood and the fantasies that it creates.
Humans: Dumb Beyond Belief. Read it on www.dangerouscreation.com
Well, DUH ! This is what you LOSERS get for supporting Republicans and Democrats. Go vote for a 3rd party for a change and then the US will get it !
Your post has a Talking Points Drinking Game Score of 1:
Vote 3rd party.
Drink up!
I think USA must come to terms with it's treatment of it's First Nations. When the people of the USA understand what they did (and continue doing) to the Native people of their own country then they will get what the zionazis are doing to the Palestinians.
About the 9/11 thing, it seems to me that there are many unanswered questions that do need to be answered, many of which are very obvious. Why indeed do so many people of Fisk's stature shy away from the topic?
Sophie Scholl-The Final Days
Regarding Fisk and 911, his rhetoric is especially ironic when you consider he wrote this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-even-i-question-the-truth-about-911...
It appears he has doubts about the official version of 911, but calls people "ravers" when they bring Bush into the equation.
I don't mind (in fact, I appreciate) when people refuse to jump to conclusions about which 911 theory is correct. It's enough to say we were lied to. But to dismiss Bush as a suspect is also jumping to a conclusion without evidence.
Fisk states, "My final argument – a clincher, in my view – is that the Bush administration has screwed up everything – militarily, politically diplomatically – it has tried to do in the Middle East; so how on earth could it successfully bring off the international crimes against humanity in the United States on 11 September 2001?"
This is based on the faulty assumption that Bush is judging success in the ME by standards that are obviously irrelevant to him (i.e promoting democracy, Israeli/Palestinian peace, winning/ending our wars etc...) In terms of expanding empire, distracting from domestic problems, and war-profiteering - the war is a smashing success. It seems to me, that the skill required to pull off 911, was nothing compared to the scale of the conspiracy required to invade Iraq.
Thank you White Rose for speaking the truth. There are many parallels between the colonization of America (land given to white people by God as taught to me in school) and the establishment of Israel . . .
Finally someone picked up on this little exchange buried in the middle of the 'debate', which was like two members of a secret society verbally high-fiving each other before going back to the business of 'debating' !
Dr. Who had a really weird (even for Dr. Who) segment which PBS showed right after the debate on Thursday, wherein an alien spaceship slices through the Tower of London (shades of 911) and that was just for starters . . . very nice programming touch !
"The would-be president, the Associated Press announced, had attended a Muslim school but hadn't "practised" Islam.
What on earth did this mean, I asked myself? Would AP have reported, for example, that McCain had attended a Christian school but hadn't "practised" Christianity? Then I got it. Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!"
Am I reading this correctly?
That McCain "attended a Christian school but hadn't "practised" Christianity" implies that he would have practiced Christianity.
"Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!" Refers to people NOT believing that Clinton didn't smoked but didn't inhale.
Fisk is implying Obama "practiced" Islam.
Growing up, I knew a Jewish kid and a Buddhist kid who both went to Catholic school to get a "better education", they did not "practice" Catholicism. Obama was a young child going to school in Indonesia, how many options for schooling did he have? I don't support Obama. But this is a smear.
"So I used the old Fisk trick when confronted by ravers of the "admit George Bush did 9/11" school. I looked at my watch, adopted a shocked expression and shouted: "Gotta go!"
This is another smear.
It's also the most common rebuttal to those questioning the official story of 911.
Regardless of what we think happened on 911, can we meditate for a second on how immensely stupid it would be to assume the Bush Administration told us the truth and that because of that we now know the full story?
lil z sez:
"The would-be president, the Associated Press announced, had attended a Muslim school but hadn't "practised" Islam.
What on earth did this mean, I asked myself? Would AP have reported, for example, that McCain had attended a Christian school but hadn't "practised" Christianity? Then I got it. Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!"
Am I reading this correctly?"
Fisk is commenting on the media putting forth an item about Obama that they would never put out about McCain. He's showing how the media is treating Obama. I think the Clinton reference is to show they're intentionally putting out a meme that many people won't believe.
I support Obama but think Fisk is slamming the media, not Obama.
And yes, the 9/11 thing is a smear.
"...the sympathy which Americans would grant any other occupied people." Duhh, how did you dream up that fantasy, Mr. Fisk?
Dante
"My apologies. That was my irritation showing thru from a condesending comment on another post you made. Had no place here and was not a coherent statement." (Thomas)
There is absolurely no need for apologies from you in this case. Thomas I am from Monreal, Quebec, Canada and my wife is from Montgomery, Alabama, USA. It is my wife who is the history prof.(lol) I am an engineer by profession. We are currently living on the east coast of Canada where we are both employed in our respective professions. We will be here for about another two years.
In my previous posts my imtent was not to offend and if I did do it is I who must apologize to you. Thomas there are a handful commentators on cd that I read regularly and you are one of them. I learn much from what you write regardless if I happen to agree or disagree with that which you write.
Thomas Gilbert
Canada
It's understandable Robert Fisk. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would guess there are millions of Jewish voters here, and thousands of Palestinians. It's all about getting elected.
Zionists have been conducting their own Holocaust in the Middle East for half a century and more. America and the world's Jews are paying for it. (In both ways)
Agreed! Let's call it what it is.
Of course, since Biden and Palin have both publicized their fealty to Israel (what about to the U.S.?), their reluctance to draw attention to Israel's actions is completely understandable.
Dave
http://daveeriqat.wordpress.com/
Amen, Robert Fisk, this unqualified Israel-adoration was an utter disgrace.
If anyone of those two had wanted to do anything about "terror", this would have been their chance. To give the impression that Palestinians are human beings as well.
Considering that Palin actually got a question regarding the causes of climate change, a question about why anybody east of Istanbul is literally spitting fire when they think of US Middle East policy, would have been entirely appropriate.
I can't blame them, this is so unjust.
I had been unaware of an nth amendment to the US Constitution which calls for unconditional support for whatever AIPAC finds appropriate, BTW. They all act as if there were one.
And I can only agree with those here who recommend Ha'aretz. They occasionally write the kind of stuff which would immediately cause right-wing Jews to call you an anti-semite in America or Europe, if you wrote the same.
Read UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338.
Learn the truth about the USS Liberty.
Learn the truth about Sabra and Shatilla and Qana (twice).
Research:
Kaminev
Sverdlov
Radek
Trotsky
Kaganovich
Yagoda
How MILLIONS were starved to death in Ukraine in the 30s.
The Federal Reserve and how it came into being.
BE INFORMED....JUST THE FACTS.
And don't forget Mordechai Vanunu.
And Chewbacca. Don't forget him.
The US politicians cannot be that stupid. They know very well that the Israel-Palestine issue is central to all other issues in the Middle East. Once that issue is resolved, the US will not have to worry about Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, etc. In fact, if that issue were resolved, it would have made the Iraq adventure unnecessary.
The reason the US is not doing it is because they (the US politicians) are afraid of Israel. Not that Israel can do any harm to the US, but because Israel’s powerful and influential lobby groups will make sure that politicians who do not kowtow to Israel are not re-elected.
What a disgrace it is for every American when the world witnesses that even the US presidential candidates genuflect before the AIPAC Board. What a shame indeed.
The United States of Israel is the problem.
The Palestinian "cause" got exactly the mention it deserves. These people have systematically destroyed any peace process again and again. They have throughout their struggle repeatedly committed atrocities..... in fact their "struggle" consists almost entirely of atrocities, and the "courageous freedom fighters" have consistently brought retribution down upon their own "innocent" people by perpetrating their crimes from areas with large concentrations of civilians, and or fleeing back to those areas. It has been entirely a campaign of terror with absolutely no serious effort at achieving a settlement.
The innocent who suffer always deserve our sympathy...... but the hand that ultimately has brought all this suffering to both the so called Palestinian people and the people of Israel is the hand of these "courageous freedom fighters". There clearly is no peace process that will satisfy them short of extinction of the Jewish race.
The drawn out campaign of these "freedom fighters" which has consistently targeted innocents, and consists of murder, rape, hijacking, and human bombs has earned them my total contempt as few movement in human history have. They exist in a hell of their own creation.... and are determined to share it with the rest of the world. I have watched this conflict from a distance for a large part of it's 60+ years, and must admit that nothing I have seen or read of it inclines me to the slightest sympathy for their cause!!
Howard
A tool with Stone for brains -
Google "palestinian child killed"
Educate yourself.
Listen, Israel was condemned by the UN Security Council - this means those resolutions which were NOT vetoed by the US and already watered down considerably and adopted under a tame legal base (=not triggering any harsh measures) because the US normally threaten to veto any resolution that mentions Israel!!! - exactly 321 times http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
Iraq was condemned in Security Council Resulution no 660 for invading Kuwait and was immediately attacked, for starters.
Already in 1948, a UN Security Council Resolution called for the return of ALL refugees in Palestine/Israel, no. 194, though. Nothing ever happened.
The famous 242 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242 - never followed up.
Israel annexed the Golan Height, banned by international law.
You might want to study the Fourth Geneva Convention http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention#Article_47
And, yes, guess what: International law applies to Israel and America as well.
Araquin,
You are allowed to take these things, articles, U.N. Resolutions out of context as much as you desire. It will not change the history of the last 4000 years. The most recent being the last 100 years and European, mostly British, then American after WWII, help and interference as some would suggest. You neglected to indicate the votes by the U.N. countries involved to attempt a partition of Israel/Palestine territory in 1947-48. 58% voted for it, 10% abstained, 33% or so voted against it. The latter were all Middle Eastern states, including Pakistan and India.
Resolution 242 was the agreement after the 1967, 6 day war where Egypt was the aggressor. Israel did not 'annex' the Golan Heights. They 'won' it. The U.N. stated that the resolution of the final borders were up to the negotiations of the parties involved. End of Story.
As for your assertions of Article 47 of the Fourth Geneva Convention having relevance, can you indicate to all of us out here where the U.N. addressed this issue in a resolution binding Israel to compliance? Seriously, I don't see it in my Encyclopedia Brittanica...
And, finally, the 321 resolutions you proclaim in your first paragraph? Could you elucidate the truth a little more, without the logical fallacies.
But thanks for the references to the most unreliable source on the internet.
Two words my friend: Military Occupation.
"Well, I'm so glad you approve ."(Thomas)
Thomas my name is Dante and I fully support your message.
Dante
My apologies. That was my irritation showing thru from a condesending comment on another post you made. Had no place here and was not a coherent statement.
Actually I appreciated your compliment. Again , my apologies. I'll watch myself closer in the future.
For those posters who have remarked on their lack of knowledge regarding the Israeli/Palestinian relationship, let me suggest a daily scanning of Israel's (somewhat) liberal newspaper:
www.haaretz.com
Thanks for the link.
bligh4
I think many people are just having "empathy fatigue" when it comes to the Israel/ Palestinian question. Nothing is ever resolved and nothing ever will be unless both sides start acting with something approaching good faith. Israel controlling all access- and building settlements on one side and the Arabs loudly calling for Israels annilation and mass murder on the other- does not sound like good faith to me.
I'm going to worry about something else for a while.
bligh4,
No Arabs are calling for Israel's annihilation, or for any mass murder. Such a characterization of the Palestinian's demand for their land and homes back is pure, US/Israeli/AIPAC propaganda.
If you go here: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
You will see that it is Israel that is doing the greatest share of mass murder.
bligh4
USAn
Thanks for the reply. Well, all I can say is that I can read Hamas's charter as well as anyone, I see the sermons calling for the death of the jews on palestinian and arab TV, and I have seen demonstrations in my home town calling for the abolishment of the state of Israel. If Hamas changes their charter and Arab TV stops broadcasting hate- then maybe I will change my mind.
Again, a pox on both houses. I'm STILL going to worry about something else.
Bligh,
Just to be clear, are you fluent in Arabic?
And at this point I fear the two-state solution is dead. So the only solution will be the transformation of Israel into multi-confessional, state, like Lebanon, which itself would be a peaceful place if it weren't for the irritant of Israel to it's south, and all the Palestinian refugees still trapped there in conditions of poverty.
If this is annihilation, it is the annihilation of a state and a regime, not a people - like the old Soviet Union experienced, which was largely a good thing.
bligh4
USAn. Am I fluent in Arabic? No. I was not aware that was a requirement to have an informed opinion on the matter. With that line of reasoning, all the non-english speaking Arabs could not have an informed opinion on the US, or non-hebrew speakers could not have an opinion on Israel.
My business partner is fluent in both Arabic and Farsi, and has vouched for the accuracy of the broadcasts that I have seen.
I am afraid that a multi-religious state is no longer possible in the middle east. The majority will vote in a state based on Sharia, and the others will either continue to exist as second-class citizens, emigrate, or perish. This has been the pattern in all the countries in the area for the past two decades.
God help them.
I will support your position on this. I have very dear friends who are fluent in Arabic, Armenian, Farsi and a couple of dialects. Their parents live in Lebanon where Hezbola(sp.inc) has influence also, big time. Their belief is that Hamas is causing trouble and inciting it in Palestine, even after being elected into power. And remember they picked up the slack caused by the death of Yasser Arafat. His positions were toast upon his death. Peace was actually very close until then. But then the American fascists, commencing with Ronnie 'Bozo the Clown' Raygun, came into power all the way through the shitbag we have now. If I were a Middle East leader, I would do just what they are doing. Schmooze, rip'em off on energy, fuck with their heads politically, show the American people what shmucks their leaders are and fart bad gas in their direction. HarHarHar.
bligh4 you don't belong here with you rational, informed opinion! Only hate on this subject. Bad form not keeling in mate.
bligh4
Apparently you're right goose. I need to keep a cheatsheet on my computer to see who I am supposed to irrationally hate.
thanks for the heads up.
bligh
A cheat sheet to irrationally hate? You really do need some mental help.
Jason Jordan
Sandpoint, Idaho
..
"I still don't know enough about this part of the middle east to give an informed opinion. Though some here helped me learn about the Palestinians side of this problem. And I believe they need to be given much more consideration." (Thomas)
Unfortunately we tend to view the world through the lens of a sporting event.(Our side and their side ..a manichean approach... the good guys and the bad guys) In your comment Thomas you are doing exactly what we all should and must do, and that is, imagine the other.
Well, I'm so glad you approve .
Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!
**great line --Agreed
Zionism is the problem. Zionism is racism. Zionism is a barrier to peace. It will take a century to clean up the mess of the last century of Zionism. If we start now.
Fat chance.
"real world"- you are acting like an uninformed clone in the Zionist Support Brigade . . .
seedeevee,
And your fascist, anti-semite crock of shit means something? "...the last century of Zionism. If we start now..."
Do you think that your ignorant utterances, like most of the rest of these fools here on this subject, are the equivalent of a studied analysis of the Israel/Palestine political situation? You exemplify one concept, that of an ignorant American under the influence of some of the most ignorant people of this country. I am embarrassed whenever I read these comments from so many here that suffer a delusion of being a 'progressive.'
Zionism is not the problem anymore than Islam is the problem. Americanism is the problem and Fisk has his head up your collective ass.
Great article. Fisk is one of my favorite journalists.
I still don't know enough about this part of the middle east to give an informed opinion. Though some here helped me learn about the Palestinians side of this problem. And I believe they need to be given much more consideration.
I also believe now that Congress and the Senate have elected Obama, there may be a better chance for some rersolution there.
Thomas More at Oct. 4 at 12:58 pm
Since Obama, like McCain, has sworn fealty to AIPAC, it is highly unlikely that the [alleged] agent of hope will offer much hope, if any, to the Palestinian people.
This is another good resource:
http://www.imemc.org/
For one objective perspective, let me suggest:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
Obama had smoked Islam but he hadn't inhaled!
**great line
Secularism is full of religious nuts too though. They just believe in Evolution instead of the Great Chain of Being-but the point is the same--humans are better than everything else(they claim it isnt, but that's what they use biology for--genetic engineering, vivisection exploded in frequency after Darwin etc).
The truth about Palestine is that for most US voters what happens in a tiny part of the Middle East is irrelevant to them.
Its like East Timor or Burma.
And Israel has a much stronger lobby and some of its interests tie in with US military policy. The way the politicians fall over to protect is just incredible. Never would have thought Carter would be stuck in the margins and he will probably be ignored until he is dead.
On the issue of Islam and France--I do think its ridiculous that someone like Bridget Bardot gets fined because she calls Islam barbaric for its animal sacrifices(mind you-Judaism has it too-but Jews are in far fewer numbers and it isnt as public as the Eid idiocy).
Religious zealots should not be allowed to push their anti-social/unethical beliefs outside of their home country--there are fanatics in Islam who want to push sharia law in Europe.
>>Secularism is full of religious nuts too though. They just believe in Evolution instead of the Great Chain of Being-but the point is the same--humans are better than everything else(they claim it isnt, but that's what they use biology for--genetic engineering, vivisection exploded in frequency after Darwin etc).
What rubbish! "Secularism is full of religious nuts"....how do you keep your head from exploding after uttering such nonsense?
You clearly know nothing about secularism, evolutionary theory or the scientific method.
Show me a single evolutionary biologist who believes that "humans are better than everything else." If anything this is the mantra of Christian Dominionism. Evolutionary biology teaches us that what separates man from animal is a difference in degree, not one in kind. We are just another branch of the same evolutionary tree. We all share a common ancestor..
>>but that's what they use biology for--genetic engineering, vivisection exploded in frequency after Darwin etc).
Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Science, whether investigating genetics, or any other form of research is not inherently evil. It is often the use of this science, whether research into nuclear fission or fusion gets employed as nuclear warhead, or genetic research is utilized to enhance Monsanto's profit. It is the corporate and governmental entities who use science for such evil purposes. The same research can and is used for many peaceful and life-enhancing technologies.
re: "vivisection exploded in frequency after Darwin"....pure malarkey. Why do you feel the need to slander what many consider to be the greatest and most influential scientist? There was plenty of vivisection pre-Darwin, and there is plenty today. The only difference today is industrialization and the proliferation of corporate entities that perform vivisection. If you actually bothered to read some Darwin (and I suggest you do), you'd quickly find that he was greatly disturbed by vivisection (in fact this is what lead him to not pursue a career as a physician).
Darwin was well aware of the moral implications of his theory. When he wrote in one of his journals:
"Man in his arrogance thinks himself a great work worthy the interposition of a deity. More humble and I think truer to consider his created from animals."
...he was speaking of the religious worldview that grants to humans a moral status superior to that of any other creature on the planet, and that a "creator" put the other creature here for man's use. This theory regards human life and ONLY human life as sacred. Darwin realized that (as his and other's meticulous research proves) there is no "creator" in the biblical sense, and therefore the "moral" guidance found in that ridiculous tome must be replaced by a moralism that does not grant humans any "special" status.
You write:
"Religious zealots should not be allowed to push their anti-social/unethical beliefs outside of their home country--there are fanatics in Islam who want to push sharia law in Europe"
Religious zealots, whether Muslim, Christian, believers in Zeus or the tooth fairy should not be allowed to push their nonsensical and dangerous worldviews ANYWHERE. Such people need rehabilitation and psychiatric care. We need to get beyond the "belief" in imaginary deities looking down on us from the skies above, and this "my god is the only true god and you better worship my god or I'll kill you" mindset. Maybe then we might have a little peace in the world.
We need more science, and more secularism to guide the world at this critical juncture. Not religious hokum of any variety.
Great reply, Biomusicologist.
Our Congress is occupied Israeli territory so any discussion of Israel policy can easily be prevented.
Hoa binh
Robert Fisk is brillant, and knows as much as anyone alive about the Middle East.
My only question to him would be, "So what else is new?"
The world is filled with myriad absurdities, and none more absurd than international politics and relations among nation states.
Many, many things are left unsaid, remain taboo, are distorted beyond all recognition, and euphemized out of existence.
some people it seems will believe anything, because the truth doesn't square with their religious / political dreams..
i do believe most major religions of the world state that, "we are ALL GOD'S children", but i guess like most people, GOD has favorites?
How in the name of any supposed God can one evict from their homes and lands thousands and thousands, force them into unlivable conditions not unlike open prisons, then expect the world to respect them, because even though they never, ever lived in the area, a God said it was theirs?
keep clinging to your myths and stories like frightened children, because to put it in common parlance, "you ain't seen nuthin yet!"
i will now hunker down and brace myself against the rabid antisemitic and jew hating epithets that are headed my way, sure as the sun rises in the east, i always found it interesting one can say anything about any religion but judaism, and not be "crucified", bad pun i admit..but laugh or go nuts..your choice.
Fisk don't get it either. As long as we cannot speak openly about Israeli policy because we fear being branded antisemitic we can never honestly approach this issue. Pres. Carter has tried and has been marginalized. And who on earth honestly believes Carter to be anti anything when it comes to humanity? Like Wall Street, Israel prefers to function in the backroom applying inhumane tactics that serve them and them alone. The Palestinians could do better but are often overwhelmed simply trying to get clean water or get through an Israeli wall-checkpoint. When will we learn we are all connected and that militarism serves only a small handful of people to their benefit and seriously hurts so many?
This only proves that our handful of representatives in federal government are subservient to the powerful jewish tribe here and there.
The only way to bypass jewish, banking, corporate, Miami-cuban, and other centers of concentrated money and power is by direct democracy.
The U.S. doesn't get it on a lot of fronts!!!
The U.S. and Israel are mirror images of each other, heavily militaristic, belligerent, blind with power, war-mongering, paranoid and always ever so right. Bringing up the word Israel in the U.S. is like bringing up the word abortion; end of discussion or the conversation goes nuts!
I had to learn about Palestine-Israel before having an opinion. I am 100% pro-Palestine. I think if most americans knew the real history they would be as well. The problem is that we are miseducated on this topic. We also have a small but effective jewish population in this country that won't allow real dissent on this issue. How they get away with this truly amazes me as they are a very small minority!
Agreed,
How can anyone, with a operating moral compass, and with any knowledge of the history of the conflict, be anything but strongly pro-Palestine.
Who robbed who of their land and farms, homes and livelihoods?
Who are the native people, and who are, overwhelmingly the racist colonizers?
Who has done the major part of the killing and ALL of the ethnic cleansing?
When It Comes to Palestine and Israel, the US Simply Doesn't Get It
And likely never will.
Also, the cruel embargo on Cuba was not mentioned.
Don't be silly.