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The Complete (Though Ever-Changing) Elite Consensus Over the Financial Collapse
The assertion that Saddam had chemical and biological weapons -- and the ability to use them against his neighbors and even the United States -- was expressed in an Oct. 1, 2002, document called a National Intelligence Estimate. The estimate didn't trigger President Bush's determination to oust Saddam. But it weighed heavily on members of Congress as they decided to authorize force against Iraq, and it was central to Secretary of State Colin Powell's presentation to the United Nations Security Council a year ago this week. . . .Walter Pincus, The Washington Post, August 11, 2007 -- "How the Fight for Vast New Spying Powers Was Won":The Bush and Clinton administrations, foreign intelligence services, and Republicans and Democrats in Congress all took it as a given that Iraq had chemical and biological weapons.
For three days, Mike McConnell, the director of national intelligence, had haggled with congressional leaders over amendments to a federal surveillance law, but now he was putting his foot down. "This is the issue," said the plain-spoken retired vice admiral and Vietnam veteran, "that makes my blood pressure rise. . . .David Herszenhorn, New York Times, today, "Congressional Leaders Stunned by Warnings":McConnell won the fight, extracting a key concession despite the misgivings of Democratic negotiators. Congressional, administration and intelligence officials last week described the events leading up to the approval of this surveillance, including a remarkable series of confrontations that ended with McConnell and the White House outmaneuvering the Democratic-controlled Congress, partly by capitalizing on fresh reports of a growing terrorism threat.
"We had a forcing function," a senior administration official said, referring to the intelligence community's public report last month that said al-Qaeda poses a growing threat to the United States and to lawmakers' desire to leave town in August. . . .
A critical moment for the Democrats came on July 24, when McConnell met in a closed session with senators from both parties to ask for urgent approval of a slimmed-down version of his bill. Armed with new details about terrorist activity and an alarming decline in U.S. eavesdropping capabilities, he argued that Congress had days, not weeks, to act.
"Everybody who heard him speak recognized the absolute, compelling necessity to move," Sen. Kit Bond (R-Mo.), vice chairman of the intelligence panel, said later of the closed session.
Democrats agreed. As delivered by McConnell, the warnings were seen as fully credible. "He's pushing this because he thinks we're in a high-threat environment," the senior aide said. . . .McConnell deemed [the Democratic draft's] fine print unacceptable, however, and in the end, it was the Republican bill, a near-copy of his proposal, that passed both chambers of Congress.
It was a room full of people who rarely hold their tongues. But as the Fed chairman, Ben S. Bernanke, laid out the potentially devastating ramifications of the financial crisis before congressional leaders on Thursday night, there was a stunned silence at first.Leave aside for the moment whether this gargantuan nationalization/bailout scheme is "necessary" in some utilitarian sense. One doesn't have to be an economics expert in order for several facts to be crystal clear:Mr. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. had made an urgent and unusual evening visit to Capitol Hill, and they were gathered around a conference table in the offices of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
"When you listened to him describe it you gulped," said Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York.
As Senator Christopher J. Dodd, Democrat of Connecticut and chairman of the Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee, put it Friday morning on the ABC program "Good Morning America," the congressional leaders were told "that we’re literally maybe days away from a complete meltdown of our financial system, with all the implications here at home and globally."
Mr. Schumer added, "History was sort of hanging over it, like this was a moment."
When Mr. Schumer described the meeting as "somber," Mr. Dodd cut in. "Somber doesn't begin to justify the words," he said. "We have never heard language like this."
"What you heard last evening," he added, "is one of those rare moments, certainly rare in my experience here, is Democrats and Republicans deciding we need to work together quickly."
First, the fact that Democrats are on board with this scheme means absolutely nothing. When it comes to things the Bush administration wants, Congressional Democrats don't say "no" to anything. They say "yes" to everything. That's what they're for.
They say "yes" regardless of whether they understand what they're endorsing. They say "yes" regardless of whether they've been told even the most basic facts about what they're being told to endorse. They say "yes" anytime doing so is politically less risky than saying "no," which is essentially always and is certainly the case here. They say "yes" whenever the political establishment -- meaning establishment media outlets and the corporate class that funds them -- wants them to say "yes," which is the case here. And they say "yes" with particular speed and eagerness when told to do so by the Serious Trans-Partisan Republican Experts like Hank Paulson and Ben Bernake (or Mike McConnell and Robert Gates and, before them, Donald Rumsfeld and Colin Powell).
So nothing could be less reassuring or more meaningless than the fact that the Democratic leadership has announced that what they heard scared them so much that they are certain all of this is necessary -- whatever "all this" might be (and does anyone think that they know what "this" even is?). It may be "necessary" or may not be, but the fact that Congressional Democrats are saying this is irrelevant, since they would not have done anything else -- they're incapable of doing anything else -- other than giving their stamp of approval when they're told to.
Second, whatever else is true, the events of the last week are the most momentous events of the Bush era in terms of defining what kind of country we are and how we function -- and before this week, the last eight years have been quite momentous, so that is saying a lot. Again, regardless of whether this nationalization/bailout scheme is "necessary" or makes utilitarian sense, it is a crime of the highest order -- not a "crime" in the legal sense but in a more meaningful sense.
What is more intrinsically corrupt than allowing people to engage in high-reward/no-risk capitalism -- where they reap tens of millions of dollars and more every year while their reckless gambles are paying off only to then have the Government shift their losses to the citizenry at large once their schemes collapse? We've retroactively created a win-only system where the wealthiest corporations and their shareholders are free to gamble for as long as they win and then force others who have no upside to pay for their losses. Watching Wall St. erupt with an orgy of celebration on Friday after it became clear the Government (i.e., you) would pay for their disaster was literally nauseating, as the very people who wreaked this havoc are now being rewarded.
More amazingly, they're free to walk away without having to disgorge their gains; at worst, they're just "forced" to walk away without any further stake in the gamble. How can these bailouts not at least be categorically conditioned on the disgorgement of ill-gotten gains from those who are responsible? The mere fact that shareholders might lose their stake going forward doesn't resolve that concern; why should those who so fantastically profited from these schemes they couldn't support walk away with their gains? This is "redistribution of wealth" and "government takeover of industry" on the grandest scale imaginable -- the buzzphrases that have been thrown around for decades to represent all that is evil and bad in the world. That's all this is; it's not an "investment" by the Government in any real sense but just a magical transfer of losses away from those who are responsible for these losses to those who aren't.
And all of this was both foreseeable as well as foreseen -- see the 2002 grave warnings from Warren Buffett on pages 14-15 of his shareholders letter (.pdf), among many other things -- and it's also happened before, when the Federal Government bailed out the S&L industry that (with John McCain's help) was able to gamble recklessly and then force the country to protect them from their losses. The people who did this have no fear of anything -- they completely lack the kind of healthy fear that impedes reckless behavior -- because they know how our Government works and that they control it and thus believe that their capacity to suffer is limited in the extreme. And they're right about that.
What's most vital to underscore is that the beneficiaries of this week's extraordinary Government schemes aren't just the coincidental recipients of largesse due to some random stroke of good luck. The people on whose behalf these schemes are being implemented -- the true beneficiaries -- are the very same people who have been running and owning our Government -- both parties -- for decades, which is why they have been able to do what they've been doing without interference. They were able to gamble without limit because they control the Government, and now they're having others bear the brunt of their collapse for the same reason -- because the Government is largely run for their benefit.
If there is any "pitchfork moment" -- an episode that understandably would send people into the streets in mass outrage -- it would be this. Nobody really even seems to know how much of these losses "the Government" -- meaning working people who had no part in the profits from these transactions -- is undertaking virtually overnight but it's at least a trillion dollars, an amount so vast it's hard to comprehend, let alone analyze in terms of consequences. The transactions are way too complex even for the most sophisticated financial analysts to understand, let alone value. Whatever else is true, generations of Americans are almost certainly going to be severely burdened in untold ways by the events of the last week -- ones that have been carried out largely without any debate and mostly in secret.
Third, what's probably most amazing of all is the contrast between how gargantuan all of this is and the complete absence of debate or disagreement over what's taking place. It's not just that, as usual, Democrats and Republicans are embracing the same core premises ("this is regrettable but necessary"). It's that there's almost no real discussion of what happened, who is responsible, and what the consequences are. It's basically as though the elite class is getting together and discussing this all in whispers, coordinating their views, and releasing just enough information to keep the stupid masses content and calm.
Can anyone point to any discussion of what the implications are for having the Federal Government seize control of the largest and most powerful insurance company in the country, as well as virtually the entire mortgage industry and other key swaths of financial services? Haven't we heard all these years that national health care was an extremely risky and dangerous undertaking because of what happens when the Federal Government gets too involved in an industry? What happened in the last month dwarfs all of that by many magnitudes.
The Treasury Secretary is dictating to these companies how they should be run and who should run them. The Federal Government now controls what were -- up until last month -- vast private assets. These are extreme -- truly radical -- changes to how our society functions. Does anyone have any disagreement with any of it or is anyone alarmed by what the consequences are -- not the economic consequences but the consequences of so radically changing how things function so fundamentally and so quickly?
Other countries are debating it. The headline in the largest Brazilian newspaper this week was: "Capitalist Socialism??" and articles all week have questioned -- with alarm -- whether what the U.S. Government did has just radically and permanently altered the world economic system and ushered in some perverse form of "socialism" where industries are nationalized and massive debt imposed on workers in order to protect the wealthiest. If Latin America is shocked at the degree of nationalization and government-mandated transfer of wealth, that is a pretty compelling reflection of how extreme -- unprecedented -- it all is.
But there's virtually no discussion of that in America's dominant media outlets. All one hears is that everything that is happening is necessary to save us all from economic doom. And what's most amazing about that is that the Natural, Unchallenged Consensus That Nobody Questions can shift drastically in a matter of days and still nobody questions anything. This is what Atrios observed as I was writing this post:
It's fascinating to watch how easily consensus is manufactured. A few days ago elite opinion seemed to be cheering Paulson's "no bailout" line, and now they're cheering a trillion bucks thrown down the crapper. All the Very Serious People will spend their days coming up with their pony plans, oblivious to the fact that the pony plan is not an option. The Bush administration's plan is the option.The way it works is that Bush officials decree how things will be, and then everyone -- from Congressional Democrats to the Serious Pundits -- jump uncritically and obediently on board, even if they were on board with the complete opposite approach just days earlier, and then all real dissent vanishes. That's how the country in general works. As Atrios says: "We've seen this game played before."
I don't pretend to know anywhere near enough -- in terms of either raw
information or expertise -- in order to opine on the necessity or lack
thereof of The Latest Plan in terms of whether the alternatives are
worse. But what I do know is that an injustice so grave and extreme
that it defies words is taking place; that the greatest beneficiaries
are those who are most culpable; and that the same hopelessly broken
and deeply rotted institutions and elite class that gave rise to all of
this (and so much more) are the very ones that are -- yet again --
being blindly entrusted to solve this.
UPDATE: Here is the current draft for the latest plan. It's elegantly simple. The three key provisions: (1) The Treasury Secretary is authorized to buy up to $700 billion
of any mortgage-related assets (so he can just transfer that amount to
any corporations in exchange for their worthless or severely crippled
"assets") [Sec. 6]; (2) The ceiling on the national debt is raised to
$11.3 trillion to accommodate this scheme [Sec. 10]; and (3) best of
all: "Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act
are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be
reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency" [Sec. 8].
Put another way, this authorizes Hank Paulson to transfer $700 billion of taxpayer money to private industry in his sole discretion, and nobody has the right or ability to review or challenge any decision he makes.

142 Comments so far
Show AllThere is no way to stop this madness. They'll do whatever they want. The citizens have no voice--at all.
The only thing we can do at this point as citizens is to get totally out of the market (if you haven't already, SELL) and then stop all unnecessary household / personal spending.
Don't go out to eat. Don't buy clothes or tech widgets. Don't travel or take vacations.
Its the only influence we have.
At the polls, we can at least vote for Nader.
To the contrary, if "we" let this happen, we ar the biggest fools that the world has ever known.
I'm not in the market. I wont go into how poor I am--I dont even pay for this ISP. I support most of Nader';s platform. But, I think we need to take this further. This system dosent need "regulating" (although, even that conclusion is far from certain--indeed, we can be almot certain that Dems will ask for SOME things and capitualte)). It is rotten to he core, and needs to collapse from within.
If the govt wont take these mfers money, we should. I am not trying to be confrontational (well, maybe I am), but i am just SSSOOO angry at hte Am. people!! WHY???!! do we "have to just let this go"??!
This has far-reaching consequences for the entire planet!!
This is supposed to be a "progresive" site. Let's make a plan. I have many, but, I'm a socialist, so they probably wouldnt be acceptable to people brainwashed by the "free" mkt. Sen. Sanders proposals would be a good start. (It is here at CD)
I am doing everything I can to do this. The very best we can do as common folks is get out of debt completely and as quickly as possible- I am currently accelerating the pay-off of my mortgage and credit cards. I too am getting out of this bullshit game and stopping all unnecessary spending and waste. We're getting ready for the day when my dollar (which is only worth about 2 cents of gold) is completely worthless and I'll need a F*&%ing truck of money to buy a loaf of bread. Let the rich dumbasses look for somebody else to be their slave. I grew up poor and know exactly how to survive with very little.....it takes the stress away to not have to worry about all that s**t anyway. Less stress, will live longer!
I think that all credit card debt that is for medical bills or mortgages ( any necessity) should be wiped out.
Too bad all my credit card debt is unnecessary :-(
First off, I'd say it is a scam to keep the crash at bay until after the (s)elections.
Secondly, what should be forbidden in not shorrt selling so much (it gives a warm feeling, sure, but so does pissing in your pants) .. but Credit Default Swaps. http://www.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,1723152,00.html
Thirdly, I'd recommend reading Bernie Sanders here: http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/09/21-1
_________
There's a glory in the morning because the earth turns 'round and a promise in the evening when the sun goes down
Yes! Sanders for president (Feingold VP) or, Vermont, go ahead and secede. Just dont close the gates before i get there! (Dont start the revolution without me??)
Eleven Trillion + will be the new national debt (if you believe that the current bailout is somewhere close to what they claim.....from people who have not been terribly accurate before when estimating costs for wars, defense budgets, disaster relief...), divided by however many people that will still have jobs and can, or are willing, to pay taxes (no poor, children, retired, etc....), equals......?
The "strong fundamentals" they refer to as being the American worker, are probably the same "strong fundamentals" that the pre-civil war Southern States economy was built on. We're able to work even harder and be more productive than before.
"First, the fact that Democrats are on board with this scheme means absolutely nothing. When it comes to things the Bush administration wants, Congressional Democrats don't say "no" to anything. They say "yes" to everything. That's what they're for.
They say "yes" regardless of whether they understand what they're endorsing. They say "yes" regardless of whether they've been told even the most basic facts about what they're being told to endorse. They say "yes" anytime doing so is politically less risky than saying "no," which is essentially always and is certainly the case here. They say "yes" whenever the political establishment -- meaning establishment media outlets and the corporate class that funds them -- wants them to say "yes," which is the case here."
Both Obama & Biden are "Congressional Democrats." Biden, in particular, is known for being utterly beholden to Wall Street: is his choice at this time a coincidence? And Obama has raised huge sums from Wall Street (concealed in all those "individual donations.")
The big ball is about to drop. Who do you want in charge?
Oregoncharles
Maybe I should exclusively date Democrat girls, since they seem to say only 'yes'...
Don't do it! You'll only get the same strain of venereal disease that McPain suffers from.
I trust Obama more than McPalin.
I trust Nosferatu more than Fu Manchu. Voting for Nader though...
Good luck on that
It sure will not be someone with the letter R after their names. even after the strawberries incident and the ball bearing rolling around in his hand, I'm sure there were a number on his crew that supported captain Queeg. We have had president Queeg for nearly 8 years and much of the crew have supported him out of loyalty or fear. A very small group has had the nerve and wisdom to want to throw him overboard, but have been impeded by crew and passengers.
At this "big ball dropping moment" we have two real choices McCain/Palin = R = loyal crew = incomprehensible in a reasoned analysis. That leaves Obama/Biden. there is no magic solution and any idea that things will magically get better any time soon after Jan 09.
the metaphor to consider is captain McCain has tried to support President Queeg no matter how many icebergs, debris and cliffs he has run the ship into. Captain Obama at least sounds like he might begin to steer the ship 2 - 5 degrees away from a course that has been headed toward a dense iceberg field under Queeg and his loyal crew. we are looking at biasing versus a locked course.
Ships do no make right turns so I believe discipline away from naiveté and the desire (desperation) for instant results will help us make a wise choice at the polls. Voting is an important thing to do and not voting for McCain/Palin is a wise rejection. We need Obama in the white house to begin the course correction. doing anything else seems low minded and ignorant (the root of which is "ignore"... some neo cons may be educated intellectuals, but are hopelessly ignorant).
If anyone wants to do some research and extra reading, examine the US economy and financial markets from 1927 - 1930. You will find press, analysis, govt. positions, activities of big players, proposed & applied "remedies" to market weaknesses, etc. that lead up to the 29 crash. at a time when sequels are regularly released in Hollywood, we seem to be eerily acting from the same script in the sequel to that time.
Roosevelt performed some Herculean and Plutonian tasks in the effort to heal from the disaster. If he missed something at a time it could have been folded into policy, it was a fully supported healthcare system that would have dove tailed with the creation with social security. (the WPA, too, was "outside the box" long before the term appeared as part of our lexicon.)
I was just talking with a money manager and financial advisor. We swapped ideas about financial ecology and the laws of physics in connection with viewing the current challenges and possible approaches to solutions. McCain is largely clueless about everything that is going on in this "ecological" scenario and, by definition, it would be very dangerous to let him get too close to the machinery if we are going to find good, wise and long lasting solutions.
At this point, we have no choice but to elect Obama and his team (team: consider those who surround him and you find a few respected visionaries with practical understanding... McCain’s Phil Gram would look like a natural history museum exhibit by comparison). consider, also, the power and organization that Obama and team created in building a campaign machine that out paced the prodigious Clinton political skill - no matter the brilliance and effectiveness of the Clintons. And he is a black guy with an exotic name in a jingoistic and prejudicial society. yet here he is.
Speaking of history, you might research the difficulty and pressures upon Jackie Robinson when he moved from the negro leagues to the dodgers. he not only had to be a good ball player, in effect he had to be the best who was playing the game at the time - or nearly so - to play on the same field with white guys. He could not make mistakes, speak no harsh words, could not retaliate against revolting behavior of whites. I believe, as many, that Obama is one of the best politicians and probable leaders we have seen in this recent era in American history and he is not getting much credit for it in the media. He is analyzed closely, criticized moronically, while the white POW gets a pass constantly.
Such is life in America where mythology trumps reality; where God bless America as spoken as entitlement rather than petition for intercession; where we think we are the greatest group of people who walk the globe, yet find torture and other heinous acts by our citizens acceptable "depending upon the circumstance" and we hide our history of prejudice, misogyny, genocide, and other embarrassing aspects of our history in the family closet of skeletons.
America is certainly beautiful and ethical (all to the best of their flawed abilities) philosopher-forefathers, but our national anthem still has bombs bursting in air and other references to war as part of the mindset that this is what makes us the country we are.
theron@sfae.com September 21st, 2008 5:11 pm,
excellent post,
the ship is sinking one way or another, i would compare obama w/ gorbachev, the last transitional leader before a transformational shift ( i believe that paradigm shift could include world govt.), neither obama nor mccain will be able to repair the dike (the dysfunctional -functional/criminal- financial system in the US), throw an iranian/russian oil bourse (where oil is traded in euros or rubles), chinese investors liquidating their worthless US assets and the additional costs of our imperial conquests into the equation - and we're totally screwed.
mccain will be outright fascism (using a war/prison economy - like in nazi germany), obama will attempt a herculean task (ala FDR) but could (probably will) fail, that buys us (people w/ alternate visions) time to raise consciousness.
obama also could fall back on a war economy if the situation completely unraveled in the caucuses or in the middle east (israel always a perfect loose cannon,events like the sinking of the maine, pearl harbor and 911 can be orchestrated to save the economy). but in a crisis i would trust obama's judgement (similar to trusting the kennedy brothers during the cuban missle crisis, imagine nixon in that office during htat time) before i would trust mccain who like bush will instinctively respond w/ nationalistic militarism.
whatever transpires, it's up to us - as individuals and in groups - to raise the consciousness of our neighbors drawing their attention away from the television and letting them understand that common dreams/alternate visions are a real possibility.
...peace...
I dont want "dreams" or "visions". Anyone can do that.
Exactly WHERE is Obama on this bailout? Is he calling for a permanent change in the status of these casino gamblings?? No--only Sen. Sanders is doing that--it stil would not be enough.
What Kennedy did to Cuba was criminal.
Roosevelt did alot. But, the duopoly has rolled it al back. Now, it just seems like a diversion to the ultimate disaster capitalism.
Capitalism is killing the country and the planet.
he's beyond mccain who until last week was denying the cracks in the economy even existed, vote however you wish - my point about the cuban missle crisis (i agree american FP towards cuba is criminal, that's why groups like pastors for peace -raising consciousness about this issue- are so critical) was ,if the liberal (neoliberal?) policy makers had made a different decision - we would have experienced nuclear war. would richard nixon have made another decision ?
critical thinking skills, experiential references, references to history - when making a decision are important. i know how sarah palin thinks, and which people she would consult with during a geopolitical/economic crisis. and john mccain is eerily nationalistic (w/ the military resume and all), spooky.
the 'dreams' and 'alternate visions' (coops, eco regulations, redistribution of wealth and even awareness of 3rd parties) are the solutions. the message. they're what replace the rotten system after a revolution.
if the people who don't read or vote are unaware of the alternatives, one has to question the struggle, who are you struggling for? the masses of people in this country require education/explanations these conversations occur when people/coworkers ponder 'visions' and 'dreams' while discussing current events.
i agree w/ you capitalism is destroying the world.
i also believe direct action against the illegitimate corporate regime is appropriate and necessary, i also realize that without the broad support of the masses (1/5 people who can't read, 1 in 2 people who don't vote, over 90% of whom watch copious amounts of TV) any attempt at change using mass civil disobedience or direct action will likely be swiftly shut down , and the events will be distorted through MSM (like the republican convention - one of the consequences of living in a police state).
my mind instinctively goes to central america and the consequences of raising consciousness during a rightwing military regime (and that is what a mccain presidency would entail). where the government takes the student roles from universities and just starts murdering people one by one. those programs were created by the same lunatics who are running our government today.
how will they (the masses and the elites) respond when the chasm widens and the depths are unfathomable?
vote your conscience...
...peace...
Iowablackbird you're a star. thanks for the comment.
>>he's beyond mccain who until last week was denying the cracks in the economy even existed...
Beyond? How so? I didn't hear a peep from Obomb'em about the economic collapse looming on the horizon until this week. In fact he has done much to protect the interests of the people that are responsible for those "racks."
* * *
Consider the case of Illinois-based Exelon Corporation, the nation’s leading nuclear-power-plant operator. The firm is Obama’s fourth largest patron, having donated a total of $74,350 to his campaigns. During debate on the 2005 energy bill, Obama helped to vote down an amendment that would have killed vast loan guarantees for power-plant operators to develop new energy projects. The loan guarantees were called “one of the worst provisions in this massive piece of legislation” by Taxpayers for Common Sense and Citizens Against Government Waste; the public will not only pay millions of dollars in loan costs but will risk losing billions of dollars if the companies default.
In one of his earliest votes, Obama joined a bloc of mostly conservative and moderate Senate Democrats who helped pass a G.O.P.-driven class-action “reform” bill. The bill had been long sought by a coalition of business groups and was lobbied for aggressively by financial firms, which constitute Obama’s second biggest single bloc of donors.
Although The Bond Market Association didn’t lobby directly on the legislation, Williams took note of Obama’s vote. “He’s a Democrat, and some people thought he’d do whatever the trial lawyers wanted, but he didn’t do that,” he said. “That’s a testament to his character.” Obama has voted on one bill that was of keen interest to Williams’s members: last year’s hotly contested bankruptcy bill, which made filing for bankruptcy more difficult and gives creditors more recourse to recover debts. Obama voted against the bill, but Williams was pleased that he did side with The Bond Market Association position on a number of provisions. Most were minor technical matters, but he also opposed an important amendment, which was defeated, that would have capped credit-card interest rates at 30 percent. “He studied the issue,” Williams said. “Some assumed he would just go along with consumer advocates, but he voted with us on several points. He understood the issue. He wasn’t closed-minded. A lot of people found that very refreshing.”
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/11/0081275
thanks, iowablackbird.
I agree with everything you have said in your post. IMO some of our problems and our being impaired to find solutions are, in part, demonstrated in this microcosmic board. Many of us, naturally, feel very passionately about what we are presenting, but reason has to prevail some time if the intention is to get somewhere. insults, loud comments, emotional choices seem to cover our society.
education alone can't heal this. very smart people can lose their cool, but countries, leaders, parents, CEO's, "top guns" can't afford to judge/act from such emotional approaches. I can't say I would trust any of us on this board to have his/her finger on the button, would you?
everything works perfectly in theory. in practice, not so much. ever have a car accident (or fall of your bicycle?), so theorizing how things would be so much better if only I called the shots does not sound too wise. my metaphor about turning that ship 2-5 degrees was not meant to mean that 5 degrees is nearly enough. the point in a historical continuum is one of biasing. right turns do not work, biasing a course in such a way in our system might very well mean that Republican and Democratic parties won't exist in 50 years... that the word progressive will no longer mean anything in political discourse because truth and justice gain a bit more respect in 50 years. we siply cannot expect the proverbial over night miracle. even revolutions require evolutionary recovery time periods - usually of decades.
we all want change and improvement - and right now! - but realistically we have to find peace with being part of a longer period of time to see the fruit of our labor ... even if we don't live long enough to actually see it. idealistic, I know, but a can't undo how I am hardwired... there is hope and idealism or there is bitterness and death. I would rather see the glass as half full than demand a full glass that has traces of cyanide.
Obama versus any voting/non-voting alternative is the glass half full for me. want to say a third full? fine. 10% full? fine. the operative word for me is "full", the ultimate desired result.
Nothing positive to say about anyone or anything----Hate! HATE! HATE!!!!
This is NOT completely bipartisan! The R's, (which you always seem to passionately cover for) have ALWAYS been against government regulation. This is a direct result of the vaunted republican philosophy. These last 8 years we've seen them use fear and intimidation to get what they want. This bailout is a desperate ploy to get bipartisan COVER for destroying the economy. IF the Democrats were smart they'd say no---but I'm afraid they're not---and that's the worst you can say about them.
Uh madcow they are more than "not smart" they are actively complicit, hint Obama gets more money from Wall St. than even war monger McCain. Now I may end up voting from Obama to keep Mooseolini from getting her finger on the nuclear trigger but it will NOT be with the illusion that the Dimcocraps are going to do ANYTHING to help the poor or the poor bedraggled environment.
I suggest you study the opensecrets website more carefully.
McCain gets nearly 20% of his total from corporate donors while Obama gets 6%---of which a good chunk is from universities.
Don't pull any fast ones there madcow I said Wall St. and I meant Wall St.
"Illinois Sen. Obama, who captured the Democratic presidential nomination on Tuesday after a lengthy primary battle against New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, has received $7.9 million (4.1 million pounds) in contributions from the securities and investment industries, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
His opponent, Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona, banked a little under $4.2 million, putting him behind fellow Republicans Rudolph Giuliani and Mitt Romney, who have long since dropped out of the race."
http://uk.reuters.com/article/stocksNews/idUKNOA53525520080605
See also:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/06/30/2008-06-30_barack_obama_has_collected_nearly_twice_-2.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/17/AR2007041701688.html
Now again I may vote for him if it's close in Michigan because Palin SCARES me, but anyone pretending Obamam isn't a puppet of the plutocrats anymore than McCain is doing just that pretending.
In the long run the only thing that is going to save the U.S. is populist grass roots rebellion hopefully leading to a break up of the American empire into sustainable bio-regionally based small statelets.
Yeah, Obama has made a lot more money than McPalin. But as a percentage of the total, his Wall St. donations are less.
And so what anyway. Obama gets 6% of his money from people who work at corporations and on Wall St. The other 94% is from individuals like you and me. That seems like a fair ratio to me.
Yes and then recognizing through Obama just how much extra money the people like you and me have to throw at the criminal organization posing for our federal government, they all got together and said surely there is an easier way to get this money out of these people bypass prospective heads of our organization and get it right into our hands first, before the people ever have it to spend on their choice for corrupted leader........and the wall street crisis, wah lah.
Don't "sonny boy" me. You know absolutely nothing of my gender or my age---so keep the sexist bullshit to yourself. You do cover for the republicans whether you realize it or not. "During Carter"s presidency"? tell me if it was Carter's idea or a group of republicans in congress.
They're not "my" democrats either. You have no idea what I'm registered as. Your whole argument is based on a faulty premise---that all democrats are deceiving evil-doers who secretly collude with the evil republicans. I'm not buying it.
Was it really a blooper? I think most would agree that only a stupid person would advocate voting for a stupid person. That is the "audacity of hope" personified.
Alas, madcow labeled me "sarcastic" for pointing out this ludicrous fallacy in her "logic."
Pathetic indeed.
Yes, you're right. I am pathetic.
It's unbelievable the stupidity of these Rove and Nader agents. The Rove agents are simply slime trying to get progressives to vote Nader to get votes away from Obama. Of course, whatever other simpleton out there made the point that all Nader votes would not necessarily go to Obama if there wasn't a 3rd party candidate...We know that!! But the point is still that Naderites and Rovian scum are trolling to get progressives that WOULD go to Obama, to change their mind on the guilt trip that we hard leftists (realists) are supporting a war mongerer, etc., blah, blah.
We're realists. On Nov. 5th, we'll have a new president. Either McCain or Obama. Anybody who genuinely believes it makes no difference is a moron. The others say McCain and Obama are the same to guilt-trip the progressive realists, and to justify their position of pushing Nader because they're part of his movement (possibly on the payroll), or they're Rovian scum. Either way, they're not what they pretend to be--progressives with a better analysis and a purer ideology than realists. Some of us hate the Dems and particularly hate some individual Dems like the Clintons. So what? We're still going to get McCain if a significant (but tiny percentage, really) vote Nader. And those of us who live in the reality world, as opposed to you Rovian scum and Naderite holier-than-thou, self-righteous fools, understand that it makes a difference.
Work your asses off to develop a viable 3rd party (some of us realists are likely doing a better job than you pontificating Naderite dweebs). I'm all for it. Of course. Nader doesn't accomplish shit in that direction between elections, and then he pulls this gadfly, egotistical run for president when all he can accomplish is skim left votes from Obama to allow McCain to win. Like Perot did to Papa Bush in 92. Get f....g real. And grow up, while you still have a chance.
getreal September 22nd, 2008 7:37 am
Obama's sole job is to persuade enough voters to WANT to vote for him that he can become President. If he can't do that then he doesn't deserve to be President.
Lobo Gris
That is an immature, juvenile attitude, or a rationalization for being Rove scum or a selfish Nader stooge. Unless you're a total idiot, you know that on this planet we have to be realistic and perfection is the deadly enemy of good enough. We all know what are the limitations of the Dems, but those of us realists who aren't confused, cocooned, vain, holier-than-thou, self-flattering simpletons understand that the horror of the last 8 years would have been avoided in large measure with Gore.
If you know anything, you should know that, for instance, for realists, Social Security is significant, a Dem program that hard core right wingers have always wanted to get rid of. Karl Rove had the plan to privatize it and had he played his cards better, he might have accomplished it, along with making the Repugs the governing party for decades. He came close.
Grover Norquist articulated what the fascists want to accomplish: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub." Had it not been for Katrina and the incredible stupidity and incompetence of the neo-cons, they just might have succeeded at destroying the last vestiges of the New Deal, privatizing everything, including Social Security, assuring Repugnantin domination of our government for decades, and reducing that gov't to a shell that hands out contracts to its friends. A complete war-mongering machine with a tiny elite with all the loot and everybody else on their own, with no collective action possible other then revolution. With cameras everywhere, the constitution destroyed, and armed Black Water goons everywhere.
If you don't understand that, you're a total simpleton. The Dems are beholding to $$$ as is everything in this country, including Nader. Check out his investments, you naive dweeb. Still, in the reality world of us progressive realists, as bad as are the Dems, they're not fascists and Obama is a huge improvement over Cheney/Rove/Bush, and McCain/Rove/Palin. If you don't get that, donate your brain to science, because you're not using it.
If nothing else, the Dems get their $$$ from a variety of sources and have a variety of constituencies--feminists, labour, a youth wing now, etc. Far from ideally progressive, and still too dependent on big $$$ but way more democratic than the Repugs. They can be held to account and influenced more than the Repugs--simple reality; if you don't get that, maybe you shouldn't be trying to debate these issues.
Politics, like football, doesn't move ahead on hail-mary passes. It's a few yards at a time, for those who get it. Dreamers and schemers like you with your juvenile/faux-macho crap about what is Obama's 'sole job' don't accomplish dick, other than talk a good game around midnight at the bar with other tough-talkin' losers and wanna-be's.
Obama, kid of a single parent, has had an incredible ride by maximizing what he had to work with. He beat fair and square the biggest (nastiest) party machine ever assembled in the US (other than the Papa Bush/Rove machine). He got himself in position with good career choices, etc., to beat the most dangerous fascist party machine in US history, and he's still...somewhat odds-on-favorite to do it. Incredible accomplishment. Yeah, there's been a whole lot of compromising on the way, more than most of us would like, but on balance, it's 2 or 3 light years better than McCain/Palin/Rove.
If people like you skim enough votes away from Obama to allow Rove, Norquist, McCain, etc., to win, it'll make a huge difference to millions. You can't be that dumb that you don't get that. And all that pain and suffering, will be on your ass. Shame on you.
Man, what happened to you? You used to be a challenge to debate. You were reasoned, sedate, and calm. (Though you always had that pompous air about you.) Now you're just talking drivel, and you sound like a sputtering Rovian plant. Do you see McCain going down? Is that it? Maybe you just need to get some sleep.
Nice!!!
LOL What idiocy! Based on what?! It's such an easy, cheap tactic for Rove agents to pretend to be hard left and to guilt-trip progressives that they are supporting a war monger, blah, blah, and skim votes progressive votes away from Obama.
Anybody who knows anything about the Rove method, knows that it's not just the big stuff; it's also leaving no stone unturned. All these progressive sites are inundated by Rove scum pretending to be hard leftists and throwing guilt-trips at realistic progressives about supporting a war-monger who is as bad as the Repugs.
We realistic progressives spend half our lives railing against the Dems for not being progressive enough. But comes crunch time, on Nov. 4th, we're gonna get McCain/Palin/Rove, or Obama/Biden. Reality: McCain or Obama.
You are not that stupid that you don't understand the difference. And...that it is significant.
So please tell me, how are you so sure there are no Rovian agents here...?? Or are you really that naive? Somehow, I doubt that.
Sooooo... I, according to you, "lower the quality of discourse here." Your words.
Here are some more of your words:
1) "Oh, bullsh*t. This crisis is completely bipartisan, and you are just pimping for Democrats here."
2) "Obama is a mealy-mouthed zero."
3) "Actually, sonny boy"
4) "Poor, pathetic madcow -- there is really nothing I care less about than what your age or gender is. I don't even care if you're a mammal."
5) "your mouth is way too big."
These fine examples of 'quality discourse' (you are so f.....g pompous on top of everything else...!!!) are just what I gathered by going up and down here for, oh, 30 seconds.
But please, Mr. Pompous Quality Discourser(PQD), do tell me on what you base your assertion that: "...There are no "Rove agents" at CommonDreams".
Waiting for your answer PQD....??
This is the funniest thing I've seen here in awhile.
RichM :
"Personal accusations such as yours about Nader's "ego" etc are pure drivel & blather, which lower the quality of discourse here"
And RichM :
"Poor, pathetic madcow -- there is really nothing I care less about than what your age or gender is. I don't even care if you're a mammal.
I suggest, though, that you start reading some serious books. Your childlike ignorance is appalling. "
I guess if it's nasty and about Nader, it lowers the discourse, but if it's nasty and about another poster it raises the discourse.
Ok
Precisely. You've got it.
No educated person believes that there is no difference between McCain and Obama. With Palin as a running mate I am truly scared of the Republican Ticket. You are correct in your statement that we will have McCain or Obama in office on Nov. 5th (permitting that Bush Co. relinquishes power). And the differences between the two are there, but slowly fading away. When it comes to what a candidate will do, one must follow the money. Obama has more support from the Corporate Class than even McCain does, does that not say something?
You seem to see progressives as soley Rovian Scum, and this is far from the case. Progressives and Democrat supporters are truly trying to achieve the same goal, but see different ways of reaching that goal. When discussing 3rd party Candidates and Democratic Candidate most Dems cannot actually discuss the issues, and that is because they are only lying to themselves when they state that the Dems have the right positions on most of the issues.
Do not tell us progressives that our approach a change is wrong. You attempt to change the Dem party from within, and that is too a noble cause. But is our attempt at change less noble than your own? For me, I see that the only way to change the way the parties work is to threaten them with the loss of their power. Of course Nader nor McKinney will sit in the Oval on Nov. 5th, but if they get enough support both parties will see that there are enough progressives active in our country to put their coveted power at risk.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts."
-- John Keats
But if you have any success (and I have no doubt that you're sincere), you will put McCain in the White House!!!
You can't tell me that you don't see the danger.
What makes you think that I (and lots of other realistic progressive voters) are not also working between elections to build up and promote a deeply progressive third party that would either replace the Dems, or push them towards a more progressive approach? Working to organize progressively in your communities is a fantastic thing to do, and if you're doing it, I'm kissing the ground on which you walk.
But voting for somebody who has no chance for president, for someone like you, who is responsible and would vote Obama if you didn't vote Nader, you've got to see that that vote does not advance anything progressive. Your organizing work between elections certainly does. But taking your progressive vote from Obama and giving it to Nader gives the White house to McCain/Palin/Rove. Surely you understand how serious that it.
You are sincere, I'm sure of it. Do you have any idea how close Rove/Cheney came to privatizing Social Security, and making the Repugs the governing party for decades? Please don't bother to tell me how Clinton, Pelosi, Gore, Obama, etc., are this and that. I know it. We all know it. It's embarrassing. But it's still not fascists, and you know it.
Gore would not have done what Cheney/Rove/Rumsfeld did. It makes a difference.
You're both wrong. On Nov. 5th, Bush will still be in the White House, and he will be there until Jan 20th, 2009.
Democrats. Holding your breath, stomping your feet, and calling us names will not make us vote for your corporate supported candidate.
Some of us truly believe that voting for the lesser of two evils is still evil. Johnson escalated the Vietnam War. Carter brought back draft registration and armed the Afghan muhjadeen. Clinton starved Iraqi children, bombed Iraq and Yugoslavia, and brought us NAFTA, WTO and the repeal of Glass Stegall.
Now what were you saying about the real world and how much better off we are under Democrats?
Wow, nice one wagelaborer! You nailed them on a technicality. We mostly assume he'll leave office when he's told to. But with Bush you never know---you might even be wrong about that.
"Now what were you saying about the real world and how much better off we are under Democrats?"
We never say democrats are perfect. You should try asking the families of the 1 million dead Iraqi civilians if they would've preferred Gore these last 8 years.
What a petty cheap stupid point. Okay, dweeb...elected president. So he gets to move in his furniture on Jan 20th. Aren't you the clever one. Debating champ, right?
Sticks and stones Rich...
Read my comment again genius : "IF the Democrats were smart they'd say no---but I'm afraid they're not---and that's the worst you can say about them."
Taken out of context you could come to your conclusion that I've called all democrats stupid. Put it into context and it's another story: It would be stupid of them to give in to the bailout.
It's all about context my friend.
Your name-calling and general attitude appall me. I'm afraid reading your books would make me like you, so I'll pass on the recommendations---but thanks for caring.
i want to thank you for the insightful post on the parallel cd post ( Welcome to the Final Stages of the Coup...by Larisa Alexandrovna /// @.. RichM September 21st, 2008 4:42 pm)
i respect your intellect and recognize that obama is somewhat of a stopgap measure, it's ludicrous to imagine either nader or mckinney has a snowball's chance in hell of winning.
on a personal note i did explain the green party/nader alternative to 2 of my working class coworkers (a young couple in their 20's who listen to heavy metal - who have never voted ...he has a felony and can't vote - she never really thought about voting... they didn't even realize that the greens existed until i gave them websites and phone numbers). they said they'd never vote for a dem or repub - i told them c mckinnney and r nader were options and provided them w/ links - as i'll distribute voter registration forms to my coworkers. but i will vote for obama...
when the greens have congressional representation and can caucus outside of the democratic party i'll consider voting for them.
where is the single green who will win a congressional seat this fall?
give me the name and the polls to back your claim and i'll send that person 20$.... until then the dems (including feingold, kucinich, conyers, and leahy) are the only game in town. there's a big chance the economic meltdown will give obama large majorities in both houses of congress, this gives prog dems and independents like sanders more breathing room and influence.
nader had the most support in 1996 when a dem was president (clinton). why? b/c independants realized there was an opening to make a statement, that clinton would win anyway - therefore allowing dem progs to support a 'green' 3rd party. nader recently has even lost this distinction - as he now no longer runs undr the shield of the green party (rather as an independant w/out congressional support)
show me the green congressional candidate who can win ( http://www.gp.org/elections/candidates/index.php ) and i'll make the phone call and donation, which green can pick up one seat in congress. until i see a little proof that you represent anyone, i'll take your recommendations at face value ...pipe dreams...
http://www.pipekeepers.org/catalog/catalog.htm
bernie sanders has endorsed obama. he also caucuses w/ progressive dems (feingold, leahy, kucinich, conyers).
the government is beyond the executive branch (which appoints supreme court justices and marches us off to war - as mccain/palin feel strongly about) - until 3rd parties can demonstrate any federal representation it's a red herring - a distraction from what will actually go down obama (dean inspired populism) or mccain (pandering to the religious right and the crypto fascist messages sent to billy-ray-jim-bob).
it's time for nader to endorse obama and provide important advice to the dem's,
i know you're a passionate critique of corporate america - think outside the box -
mr richm, what should we do if obama wins, how should we respond to a mccain presidency, b/c ultimately this will manifest. any advice? who should i send that 20$ check to (congressional green candidate anywhere in USA who can win).
...peace....
>>it's time for nader to endorse obama and provide important advice to the dem's
No. It's time for Obama and his supporters to endorse Nader for some real "change", and for you to find out about that thing on the keyboard they call the "shift" key. You know...that key that helps in making your screeds look like they weren't written by a three-year-old?
...and one more thing.
Has your man Obama extended a hand to Mr. Nader, to offer him a cabinet post in exchange for support (say, environmental secretary, commerce, or perhaps given recent events, oversight of Wall Street)?
Al Bore, John Kerry, and the demothuglicans did everything they could to keep Nader off the ballot and out of the debates in 2000 and 2004 (how un-democratic of them). If they were so concerned about Nader and his supporters, why didn't they offer an olive branch and try to form a coalition, what is necessary to govern in most European countries?
I'll tell you why. It's because they are only concerned with continuing their status as the other half of the one party syustem with two right wings. They answer to the same interests as the other half of the one party system.
You suggest that Ralph, should "endorse" the Dems and the Obamanation. Has Obama, or any Dem ever reached out and said, "Ralph, we want you. We like your ideas. We want to make a deal..." Have they?
"think outside the box" .... yeah that's something you (and your fellow Dem supporters) should consider doing.
RichM is in good form as usual.
-tailcap
>>IF the Democrats were smart they'd say no---but I'm afraid they're not---and that's the worst you can say about them.
Oh my....madcow, despite advocating voting for one of them, admits they are stupid. Is hell freezing?
"Vote stupid" <----madcow's bumper sticker
I think madcow knows by now that there is plenty worse you can say about them.
The republican fascists have crashed the economy with their free-market deregulation bonanza, and they see the writing on the wall. So what do they do? They paint the democrats into a corner. Either they sign on to the bailout---which, to those with an ability to think critically, is theft---and they get tossed over the coals for capitulating once again. Or they don't sign on to the bailout, and get blamed for not acting to save the economy when they could---it's all their fault. They will take the blame either way. You got to give it to those fascists, they really know how to play the game...