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TechnoratiCheney Is Linked to Concealment of CIA Project
WASHINGTON - The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency's director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.
![[The Central Intelligence Agency withheld information about a secret counterterrorism program from Congress for eight years on direct orders from former Vice President Dick Cheney, the agency's director, Leon E. Panetta, has told the Senate and House intelligence committees, two people with direct knowledge of the matter said Saturday.]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/cheney-2_2.jpg "cheney-2.jpg")
The report that Mr. Cheney was behind the decision to conceal the still-unidentified program from Congress deepened the mystery surrounding it, suggesting that the Bush administration had put a high priority on the program and its secrecy.
Mr. Panetta, who ended the program when he first learned of its existence from subordinates on June 23, briefed the two intelligence committees about it in separate closed sessions the next day.
Efforts to reach Mr. Cheney through relatives and associates were unsuccessful.
The question of how completely the C.I.A. informed Congress about sensitive programs has been hotly disputed by Democrats and Republicans since May, when Speaker Nancy Pelosi accused the agency of failing to reveal in 2002 that it was waterboarding a terrorism suspect, a claim Mr. Panetta rejected.
The law requires the president to make sure the intelligence committees "are kept fully and currently informed of the intelligence activities of the United States, including any significant anticipated intelligence activity." But the language of the statute, the amended National Security Act of 1947, leaves some leeway for judgment, saying such briefings should be done "to the extent consistent with due regard for the protection from unauthorized disclosure of classified information relating to sensitive intelligence sources and methods or other exceptionally sensitive matters."
In addition, for covert action programs, a particularly secret category in which the role of the United States is hidden, the law says that briefings can be limited to the so-called Gang of Eight, consisting of the Republican and Democratic leaders of both houses of Congress and of their intelligence committees.
The disclosure about Mr. Cheney's role in the unidentified C.I.A. program comes a day after an inspector general's report underscored the central role of the former vice president's office in restricting to a small circle of officials knowledge of the National Security Agency's program of eavesdropping without warrants, a degree of secrecy that the report concluded had hurt the effectiveness of the counterterrorism surveillance effort.
An intelligence agency spokesman, Paul Gimigliano, declined on Saturday to comment on the report of Mr. Cheney's role.
"It's not agency practice to discuss what may or may not have been said in a classified briefing," Mr. Gimigliano said. "When a C.I.A. unit brought this matter to Director Panetta's attention, it was with the recommendation that it be shared appropriately with Congress. That was also his view, and he took swift, decisive action to put it into effect."
Members of Congress have differed on the significance of the program, whose details remained secret and which even some Democrats have said was properly classified. Most of those interviewed, however, have said that it was an important activity that should have been disclosed to the intelligence committees.
Intelligence and Congressional officials have said the unidentified program did not involve the C.I.A. interrogation program and did not involve domestic intelligence activities. They have said the program was started by the counterterrorism center at the C.I.A. shortly after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, but never became fully operational, involving planning and some training that took place off and on from 2001 until this year.
In the tense months after 9/11, when Bush administration officials believed new Qaeda attacks could occur at any moment, intelligence officials brainstormed about radical countermeasures. It was in that atmosphere that the unidentified program was devised and deliberately concealed from Congress, officials said.
Representative Peter Hoekstra of Michigan, the top Republican on the House intelligence committee, said last week that he believed Congress would have approved of the program only in the angry and panicky days after 9/11, on 9/12, he said, but not later, after fears and tempers had begun to cool.
One intelligence official, who would speak about the classified program only on condition of anonymity, said there was no resistance inside the C.I.A. to Mr. Panetta's decision to end the program last month.
"Because this program never went fully operational and hadn't been briefed as Panetta thought it should have been, his decision to kill it was neither difficult nor controversial," the official said. "That's worth remembering amid all the drama."
Bill Harlow, a spokesman for George J. Tenet, who was the C.I.A. director when the unidentified program began, declined to comment on Saturday, noting that the program remained classified.
In the eight years of his vice presidency, Mr. Cheney was the Bush administration's most vehement defender of the secrecy of government activities, particularly in the intelligence arena. He went to the Supreme Court to keep secret the advisers to his task force on energy, and won.
A report released on Friday by the inspectors general of five agencies about the National Security Agency's domestic surveillance program makes clear that Mr. Cheney's legal adviser, David S. Addington, had to approve personally every government official who was told about the program. The report said "the exceptionally compartmented nature of the program" frustrated F.B.I. agents who were assigned to follow up on tips it had turned up.
High-level N.S.A. officials who were responsible for ensuring that the surveillance program was legal, including the agency's inspector general and general counsel, were not permitted by Mr. Cheney's office to read the Justice Department opinion that found the eavesdropping legal, several officials said.
Mr. Addington could not be reached for comment on Saturday.
Questions over the adequacy and the truthfulness of the C.I.A.'s briefings for Congress date to the creation of the intelligence oversight committees in the 1970s after disclosures of agency assassination and mind-control programs and other abuses. But complaints increased in the Bush years, when the C.I.A. and other intelligence agencies took the major role in pursuing Al Qaeda.
The use of harsh interrogation methods, including waterboarding, for instance, was first described to a handful of lawmakers for the first time in September 2002. Ms. Pelosi and the C.I.A. have disagreed about what she was told, but in any case, the briefing occurred only after a terrorism suspect, Abu Zubaydah, had been waterboarded 83 times.
Democrats in Congress, who contend that the Bush administration improperly limited Congressional briefings on intelligence, are seeking to change the National Security Act to permit the full intelligence committees to be briefed on more matters. President Obama, however, has threatened to veto the intelligence authorization bill if the changes go too far, and the proposal is now being negotiated by the White House and the intelligence committees.
Representative Jan Schakowsky, a Democrat of Illinois on the House committee, wrote on Friday to the chairman, Representative Silvestre Reyes, a Democrat of Texas, to demand an investigation of the unidentified program and why Congress was not told of it. Aides said Mr. Reyes was reviewing the matter.
"There's been a history of difficulty in getting the C.I.A. to tell us what they should," said Representative Adam Smith, a Democrat of Washington. "We will absolutely be held accountable for anything the agency does."
Mr. Hoekstra, the intelligence committee's ranking Republican, said he would not judge the agency harshly in the case of the unidentified program, because it was not fully operational. But he said that in general, the agency had not been as forthcoming as the law required.
"We have to pull the information out of them to get what we need," Mr. Hoekstra said.
101 Comments so far
Show AllSee . http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2009/04/active-thermitic-material-claimed-in.html for another view of the thermitic material...........(Cannot respond, as I do not speak the language.
Try again. The website is in English. Only the header is in Italian (not Spanish). I’ll leave any cheap shots to you.
As for the rest of your comments – I have no more comment. I’ve stated what I think, you’ve stated what you think. I have no interest in going round and round with you over the same ground, of changing your opinion, or getting tangled in your personal fugue.
So let’s try this instead if you are amenable. Let’s posit a pair of hypotheticals and see what happens.
1. We have a new investigation. It ascertains that the government’s ‘experts’ are essentially correct and that each fact you suggest as evidence of a ‘9/11 false flag operation’ can otherwise be explained. What happens?
2. We have a new investigation. It ascertains that the government’s ‘experts’ are liars or fools and that everything you suspect about the ‘9/11 false flag operation’ is true. What happens?
My contention is simple. It is that in either case nothing significant will change. There would be a lot of media outrage and hand-wringing, calls for new laws that don’t actually change anything, and promises that it will never happen again – but the system that allows such activity will not change – even if your suspicion (if it is your suspicion) is true and the ‘bad guys’ are jailed for it. This is what has always happened in the past and I have no reason to believe it would be otherwise now.
You claim that our disagreement is only over (further?) investigation. That is not true. I have posted earlier that I have no problem with investigation - only that I don't think it will change anything (and only you apparently know what you think). This is the core of our disagreement.
To me, the only point of such an investigation is to ascertain 'facts' and determine whether crimes have been committed or not. If crimes were committed then ideally the perps will be punished, and the system that allowed those crimes to be committed altered to prevent future crimes. I don't see either happening - whether crimes were committed or not and whether investigation ascertains that crimes were committed or not. So further investigation amounts to little more than a form of social masterbation because it will not yield anything fruitful.
If you suggest otherwise, please provide any historical evidence that US leaders have ever been brought to ‘justice’ and/or the political system has been changed because of their 'crimes'. I find none. And changing the system is what I consider the critical part - whatever the excuse. Anything less is just exchanging one sock puppet for another.
And please, no ‘it’s possible’ answers. I'm looking for actual historical 'facts', not wishful thinking. But if you only have 'it's possible' answers, then at least explain why this time you think it would different from all the rest.
Tirebiter...
?MaY?...I...So...(*rudely*)...!?INnnn`tRuDe?!
I've Had the !Same! (*arguements*) with 'cynical'...
ANDddd...'ThiNK'...!I! k`Now 'tHE'/'His'...(*answer*)...
'HE'...!tHiNKz!...aHh`Nother...(*investigation*)...
RE`Vealing...'the'...[Sept. 11th, 2001]/(*conspiracy*)...
'Would'/'Should'...`Cause...'a'...!NatioNaL`^UP^RiSiNg!
'A'...(*new*)`RE`!VoLt!...ANDddd...'WE`Dddd'...`Gittt...
TO:`!tHRoW!...'ALL'...THE`!SUCKERz`OUttt! !WoNt`HaPPeN!
WHiCHhhh...By`tHe`WaY...HaS...!NeVeRrrr`Hha`ha`HaPPeNeD!
(*either*)...'PeRrrr'...j`YouRrrr...
"If you suggest otherwise, please provide any historical evidence that US leaders have ever been brought to ‘justice’ and/or the political system has been changed because of their 'crimes'.
'TRY'...thadt...'TaCt'...!Out! ?WHaDt`jYa`tHiNK?
'PeaCe'...BRotHeR...(Tirebiter)
Steelhedgehogg
];@~
Yeah, what you said.
BTW, dig your handle - 'steelhedgehog' - good one.
'tHaNKz'...(*tb*).
'CoMez' from...Being...
'A'...(*life`long*)...!Steeler`Fan!
(!I!)`BLeeD...!(*black and gold*)!
stlhhgg
};@~
Used to like football, but now find it too slow, tame, formal, compartmentalized, and commercial-ridden.
Now I prefer rugby - 15 guys on a side, everybody plays offense and defense, no repeated substitutions - if you get pulled from the game, it's for the rest of the game, no stoppage except for real serious injuries (not just blood or exhausted players), free-flowing play - not pre-staged 'downs', lots of running and lateral passing (but no forward passing - like football used to be), two 40-minute halves uninterrupted by commercials, at least as physical but no ballistic plastic helmets and pads - not even a cup - for protection, possession of the ball is almost always at play and is usually determined by who takes it and keeps it - not 4 downs and out with commercials when possession changes. A football game is played for 60 minutes and takes three hours of TV time. A rugby game is played for 80 minutes and takes up to two hours to play. Figure it out - the difference is commercials.
A good rugby match can be very entertaining, if not sublime. Best rugby nations? New Zealand, France, Australia, South Africa, Wales, England, Ireland. The US national team currently sucks, but they're getting better.
Give it a look if your interested, and see what you think. Otherwise - stand behind that steel curtain and cheer.
Part two of my latest novel:
“This was just a toss-away question to see how suceptible you are to conspiracy theories. No big deal.(Sure it's a big deal....it's a method of debate to get off the topic....used all the time on the box by Faux News commentators and the like.)”
To coin a phrase: I was using poetic license. My but you’re getting excitable, aren’t you? One sometimes does when a pet theory is questioned. But let’s see, now I’m Orwellian, a defeatist, and like Fox News commentators. Oooooo - what next – I wonder?
“Of course it's relevant...the false flag of 9/11 was behind the illegal invasion of two sovereign nations and the use of depleted uranium ammunitions in both of these countries.)”
While I agree that 9/11 was the spark for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, this would apply whether 9/11 was a ‘false flag operation’ or merely a gift to the neo-cons who exploited it. No?
“This seems so obvious as to be silly, but even if the admin was not involved in 9/11, they still used it as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.”
What is ‘so obvious as to be silly’? That we agree that 9/11 was the cause of the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? Because on that we agree. What we don’t agree upon is what precipitated 9/11. And frankly, it puzzles me why you seem to get so angry over such a disagreement without irrefutable ‘facts’.
“Again, the reality you perceive is that a re-investigation would lead no where. This is not necessarily so. You have formed a pre-conceived notion.)”
Experience has amply demonstrated that further investigation would lead to no significant changes in our current governmental structure. Of that ‘notion’ I am sure. I have a pre-conceived notion about gravity too – unless of course you would like another independent investigation.
"Think so? Then please give me an example of when there’s been justice in the world...........(.Ted Bundy, Jeffry Dahmer, Kristen Gilbert, Charles Manson,...shall I go on?)
If that’s your answer then I don’t think we’re referring to the same kind of justice. From your comments I assumed you meant justice concerning governmental crimes – that is after all what we’ve been debating here. This was just reinforced when you used the word ‘times’ as in ‘Not ALWAYS, but at times there is.’ I interpreted this to mean a period of time – not an individual consequence of a particular crime. That is what I have been responding to. If you are referring to individual justice for common criminals then, I agree there has been justice for some individuals. But I submit that there has not been a period of time where governmental criminals have been brought to justice – what you claim a further investigation will engender. This is what I was referring to and what you claim to desire. Pardon my misinterpretation.
“(The way things are is not the way they have to be. I, for one, will continue the fight until I am gone. So, will many other and legions after them.)”
Good for you, but, as you suggested earlier, hardly relevent to the topic. So, having fun yet?
Part Three.............
Part two of my latest novel:
“This was just a toss-away question to see how susceptible you are to conspiracy theories. No big deal.(Sure it's a big deal....it's a method of debate to get off the topic....used all the time on the box by Faux News commentators and the like.)”
To coin a phrase: I was using poetic license. My but you’re getting excitable, aren’t you?.... sometimes does when a pet theory is questioned. But let’s see, now I’m Orwellian, a defeatist, and like Fox News commentators. Oooooo - what next – I wonder?.....(These diversionary tactics do nothing .)
“Of course it's relevant...the false flag of 9/11 was behind the illegal invasion of two sovereign nations and the use of depleted uranium ammunitions in both of these countries.)”
While I agree that 9/11 was the spark for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, this would apply whether 9/11 was a ‘false flag operation’ or merely a gift to the neo-cons who exploited it. No?............(Possibly...who knows, but let us adhere to the discussion, which is the need for a new investigation)
“This seems so obvious as to be silly, but even if the admin was not involved in 9/11, they still used it as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.”
What is ‘so obvious as to be silly’? That we agree that 9/11 was the cause of the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan? Because on that we agree. What we don’t agree upon is what precipitated 9/11. And frankly, it puzzles me why you seem to get so angry ....over such a disagreement without irrefutable ‘facts’.......(9/11 was distorted and used as a deception to invade Iraq and Afghanistan.............this is the proved fact.....not that it was the cause of the invasion)
“Again, the reality you perceive is that a re-investigation would lead no where. This is not necessarily so. You have formed a pre-conceived notion.)”
Experience has amply demonstrated that further investigation would lead to no significant changes in our current governmental structure. Of that ‘notion’ I am sure. I have a pre-conceived notion about gravity too – unless of course you would like another independent investigation......(I have stated nothing about changing the structure of the government....AGAIN, I only ask for a new investigation.)
"Think so? Then please give me an example of when there’s been justice in the world...........(Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Kristen Gilbert, Charles Manson,...shall I go on?)
If that’s your answer then I don’t think we’re referring to the same kind of justice. From your comments I assumed you meant justice concerning governmental crimes – that is after all what we’ve been debating here...........(You clearly asked for an example of where there has been justice in the world....not his government) This was just reinforced when you used the word ‘times’ as in ‘Not ALWAYS, but at times there is.’ I interpreted this to mean a period of time – not an individual consequence of a particular crime........(I interpret it to me specific instances).......... That is what I have been responding to. If you are referring to individual justice for common criminals then, I agree there has been justice for some individuals. But I submit that there has not been a period of time where governmental criminals have been brought to justice – what you claim a further investigation will engender. This is what I was referring to and what you claim to desire. Pardon my misinterpretation......(I never claimed any result...I only ask for the INDEPENDENT process to take place with a fair, unbiased investigation....the result of the process will reveal itself).
“(The way things are is not the way they have to be. I, for one, will continue the fight until I am gone. So, will many other and legions after them.)”
Good for you, but, as you suggested earlier, hardly relevent to the topic. So, having fun yet?....(Actually, yes!)
I think it serves no purpose, other than further subjugation, to believe that a re-examination of 9/11 openly and without prejudice will lead to a dead end. This may be the time when exposing the truth or allowing the truth to expose itself will set this country and its people free from the chains that bind us. The immensity of this tragedy warrants such an outcome.
“Could be you have not looked at all the evidence........ how about the fact that unexploded nano-particles of thermite were found in many dust samples from around ground zero...verified by scientists around the globe.”
See http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2009/04/active-thermitic-material-claimed-in.html for another view of the thermitic material.
I find it just believable enough to cast doubt that the ‘truthers’ view is the only one that exists. All I suggest is that there are alternative explanations for every bit of evidence you present that don’t point to the governmental conspiracy you posit. But give it a look and let me know what you think.
“People who are seeking the truth and accountability from a criminal and unbelievably corrupt government are zealots?)... And whose defeat did you have in mind? (Quite simply the defeat of those of us seeking the truth or at least a re-investigation. )”
For all your claims, my guess is that you don’t want investigation to come to the facts, you want an investigation to confirm of what you already believe to be true about what you call the ‘criminal and unbelievably corrupt government’. Jeez, 64, I’d hate to go to trial with you in the witness box and judge me that way. According to you, I’m guilty because you don’t accept exculpatory evidence and automatically a defeatist because I don’t agree with you. Why are you so upset about my views? Surely my attitude has no affect on the outcome of your ‘truth’ crusade, but it does in fact have some utility for you – it targets me and those who may hold the same views as satisfactory whipping-boys for your apparent frustration.
“We have no political mechanism for such a referendum so how would you accomplish this? (Why do you think that things that have never been done before cannot be done. How would any innovation EVER be accomplished.?)”
There may be a reason things never done before cannot be done – maybe they can’t be done. But I’m open to suggestion. Please provide the mechanism by which you think this innovation could be accomplished; not just your desire that it be accomplished. Wishing alone will not make it so – which in one phrase is the kernal of my entire side of the debate.
“Reality please, 64, not wishful thinking.................(. Nothing in REALITY leave out POSSIBILITY!.)”
‘Possibility’ again, and still no concrete suggestions. I see you still want to talk about how things should be instead of how things are.
“But I guess that when I recognize this reality, that makes me a defeatist. (.Sure as hell closes your mind to new possibilities and new thinking...like outside the box of your reality.)”
By definition no one thinks out of the box of their reality. And your responses are still all the same - you argue about how things should be not about how things are. If you wish to indulge in wish-fulfillment, be my guest, but don’t pretend it has anything to do with our current reality. Otherwise please be a little more specific instead of merely whining about the way things are. I think, from your posts, that you’re taking your beliefs in ‘the evils of our government’ a little too personally.
“Again, it's not a question of "magical powers". It's a question of attempting methods that have not been tried instead of accepting the system the way it is.)“
Again, please be specific and describe these methods.
“The opposite analogue, the one describing the position you choose to adopt is 'delusional'....................(Sounds fairly Orwellian to me; anything outside the accepted mode of thought becomes delusional.)”
Now I’m ‘Orwellian’ for dwelling on the facts of our reality, while you’re a ‘truth seeker’ because you ignore our current reality and want a different one. That’s a good one. The ‘accepted mode of thought’ you dismiss is called ‘compelling, irrefutable evidence’. You have yet to provide any for your contention.
“So would it make you feel better if each time you call me a 'defeatist' because I accept reality with all its warts, I can call you 'delusional' because you don't?...I never said I did not accept reality.”
But all your posts display your refusal to accept the reality that whether a new investigation or not, no likely outcome will change our current system of government. Or do you believe an investigation proving what you believe will change our system of government instead of merely shuffling the faces?
I do think it will eventually change, but what will change it will be the catastrophic collapse of our political/economic system and not whatever outcome is derived from your investigation. It just won’t provide enough of a catalyst for that change. Even if you’re correct, and the Bushites are punished, the faces will change, but the system will remain the same. Or do you think it will change the system? Personally, I would rather the system change than the interchangeable faces. For that to happen the majority of people must be hurt by collapse and that just hasn’t happened yet and won’t happen simply because your desired investigation decides in your favor.
“Basically, what I have said is that you can create a different reality by not being resigned to the way TPTB have conditioned you to believe.”
You may be able to create your own personal reality, but THE reality will remain the same.
Part One ................Could be you have not looked at all the evidence........ how about the fact that unexploded nano-particles of thermite were found in many dust samples from around ground zero...verified by scientists around the globe.”
See . http://undicisettembre.blogspot.com/2009/04/active-thermitic-material-claimed-in.html for another view of the thermitic material...........(Cannot respond, as I do not speak the language. Interesting strategy. Provide a certified translation and I will respond as best I can. ............... What is your response to the mathematics of these facts:)
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2009/0702-Flight77.html
and this article....
http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/132013171/researchers-release-9-11-pentagon-attack-report
(And how do you respond to the other FACTS I had posted.)........what happened to EIGHT titanium engines...what could have vaporized them? Why did three steel structured buildings collapse at almost free fall speed from fire, when in the history of the world, this has never happened before. YET, on 9/11, it occurred three times and WTC 7 was not even hit by an aircraft? These are all facts, not the ramblings of a zealot..............and I might add........How is it the BBC announced the collapse of WTC 7 twenty minute before it happened? Why was there no visible debris in Shanksville where flight 93 crashed? Since cell phones are only useable between 4000-8000 feet and passeger planes fly at 30,000 feet and above, how could anyone have made a call for help by cell phone as reported? Why was all the evidence carted away (a criminal act in itself) and the steel sold BEFORE any examination. What is the explanation for hundreds of thousands of tons of concrete, office furniture and other materials being turned into nano particles of dust? And many, many more questions and irrefutable facts.
I find it just believable enough to cast doubt that the ‘truthers’ view is the only one that exists. All I suggest is that there are alternative explanations for every bit of evidence you present that don’t point to the governmental conspiracy you posit..............(What government conspiracy did I posit, other than believing that the government's official story cannot possibly be true and was NEVER properly investigated) But give it a look and let me know what you think............(Very funny)
“People who are seeking the truth and accountability from a criminal and unbelievably corrupt government are zealots?)... And whose defeat did you have in mind? (Quite simply the defeat of those of us seeking the truth or at least a re-investigation. )”
For all your claims, my guess is that you don’t want investigation to come to the facts, you want an investigation to confirm of what you already believe to be true about what you call the ‘criminal and unbelievably corrupt government’.....................(This is your conclusion/interpretation. I never said that.) Jeez, 64, I’d hate to go to trial with you in the witness box and judge me that way. According to you, I’m guilty because you don’t accept exculpatory evidence....(and what exculpatory evidence would that be?) and automatically a defeatist because I don’t agree with you....(not at all...you are a defeatist because you seem to already know the negative outcome of something that has yet to happen,not because you do not agree with me...................(Again, you are building upon a false conclusion. I won't bite.)...... Why are you so upset about my views?........................(Do not mistake passion for anger...that will not work, either.)............... Surely my attitude has no affect on the outcome of your ‘truth’ crusade,.............(What truth crusade? I am simply asking for a re-investigation.) but it does in fact have some utility for you – it targets me and those who may hold the same views as satisfactory whipping-boys for your apparent frustration..........Whipping boy? And how pray tell, have I treated you as a whipping boy? I am calling for a new investigation. You have said it will not do any good. Again, let's stick to the debate and leave this nonsense out.
Part Two...We have no political mechanism for such a referendum so how would you accomplish this? (Why do you think that things that have never been done before cannot be done. How would any innovation EVER be accomplished.?)”
There may be a reason things never done before cannot be done – maybe they can’t be done. But I’m open to suggestion. Please provide the mechanism by which you think this innovation could be accomplished; not just your desire that it be accomplished. Wishing alone will not make it so – which in one phrase is the kernal of my entire side of the debate. ...............(One idea would be to have a referendum in NYC or nationally to form an independent commission composed from a presented selection of a spectrum of individuals and/or a write in. I'm sure the folks working on NYC CAN have many more ideas. How can one say something cannot be done if we have never been in a similar situation. The atrocity , immensity and consequences of 9/11 demand new ideas and methods and also demand that any investigation be carried out without bias and influence from the government or other involved organizations.
“Reality please, 64, not wishful thinking.................( Nothing in REALITY leaves out POSSIBILITY!)”
‘Possibility’ again, and still no concrete suggestions. I see you still want to talk about how things should be instead of how things are........................( NOT as they SHOULD BE...only POSSIBILITY..)
“But I guess that when I recognize this reality, that makes me a defeatist. (Sure as hell closes your mind to new possibilities and new thinking...like outside the box of your reality.)”
By definition no one thinks out of the box of their reality...............(Sure they do....Einstein was at least one.....Anyone can...it just takes letting go of pre-conceived notions and the way we were de-educated to think in this country) indulge in wish-fulfillment, be my guest, but don’t pretend it has anything to do with our current reality................se be a little more specific instead of merely whining about the way things are.........(Please show me an example of whining? These personal judgements serve only to diminish yourself...just as the site you chose as a rebuttle that was written in Spanish) I think, from your posts, that you’re taking your beliefs in ‘the evils of our government’ a little too personally....................(.How so? Please indicate where I replied subjectively.)
“Again, it's not a question of "magical powers". It's a question of attempting methods that have not been tried instead of accepting the system the way it is.)“
Again, please be specific and describe these methods.
“The opposite analogue, the one describing the position you choose to adopt is 'delusional'....................(Sounds fairly Orwellian to me; anything outside the accepted mode of thought becomes delusional.)”
Now I’m ‘Orwellian’ for dwelling on the facts of our reality, while you’re a ‘truth seeker’ because you ignore our current reality and want a different one....t’s a good one. The ‘accepted mode of thought’ you dismiss is called ‘compelling, irrefutable evidence’. You have yet to provide any for your contention.........(You are not Orwellian for dwelling on the facts of reality [indeed, the facts of the official story of reality have been proved virtually impossible. Please refer to facts I presented in the previous post, which you have yet to rebuke, except for a counter theory you presented in Spanish], you are Orwellian for saying other theories are delusional...quite a difference)
“So would it make you feel better if each time you call me a 'defeatist' because I accept reality with all its warts, I can call you 'delusional' because you don't?...I never said I did not accept reality.”
But all your posts display your refusal to accept the reality that whether a new investigation or not, no likely outcome will change our current system of government. Or do you believe an investigation proving what you believe will change our system of government instead of merely shuffling the faces? .......(There can be no reality to accept or any outcome to believe in since the new investigation has yet to occur. I am not a prophet.....only a citizen looking for justice.)
I do think it will eventually change, but what will change it will be the catastrophic collapse of our political/economic system and not whatever outcome is derived from your investigation...............(It's not "my" investigation. It's the desire for a new investigation supported by many citizens.) It just won’t provide enough of a catalyst for that change. Even if you’re correct, and the Bushites are punished, the faces will change, but the system will remain the same..............(I never said anything about punishing the Bushites or anyone else) Or do you think it will change the system?..........(I have no idea) Personally, I would rather the system change than the interchangeable faces. For that to happen the majority of people must be hurt by collapse and that just hasn’t happened yet and won’t happen simply because your desired investigation decides in your favor...(I have no"favor"..only a desire for a new investigation and you or I cannot predict any outcome. As I have said before, I prefer to keep my mind open to all possibility.
“Basically, what I have said is that you can create a different reality by not being resigned to the way TPTB have conditioned you to believe.”
You may be able to create your own personal reality, but THE reality will remain the same...........(And what "reality is that? The reality that says all will be the way it is forever?,....Stagnation is death. This world and the Universe thrive through change, not stagnation...as does humanity)
Man, talk about The face of Evil! If he was shouting with globs of rabies coming off of those twisted yellow teeth, he'd look just like the Apple Lisa computer commercial of 1984 showing Big Brother yelling at a mass of compliant bald citizens in robes too scared to say a word.
It's just amazing how exactly George Orwell nailed it, isn't it?
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Wisdom....
What a nightmare. And the two posters here arguing about a 911 investigation miss an important point I think: Bush did everything he could to prevent an investigation. Is this the attitude of a patriot? A president who doesn't want to find out who hit us and why? Is this the behavior of a American, or the behavior of a Traitor who doesn't want the hundreds of dealings of the Carlyle Group with the Bin Ladin Brothers Construction for Industry dealings to see the light of day? (in which Bush Senior was director of). What about Abusto (later Harkin) Energy? GWB's financial partner was Salem Bin Laden. (Osama Bin Laden's Brother!) Salem lost his money to GWB and then had some unfortunate aircraft trouble in Austin Texas which killed him. Pretty big coincidences huh?
I mean, this isn't even government we're talking about anymore. This is nothing short of organized crime. And the problem with the Federal Mafia that has hijacked our government is that once they pull off a small crime, Like the Savings and Loan meltdown that started at Neil Bush's bank: Colonial in the 80's, then it just wets the appetite for an even bigger bank heist. Like the 700 billion Bush gave (himself) the banks his last few days in office. I'm told no audit will happen. (a sucker is born every minute....I mean taxpayer.)
We don't need to speculate about who did 911. The Motive for doing it is laying all over the place. Documents at PNAC and the past behavior of these exact same financial opportunists in Iran-Contra in cranking up phony wars in Central America are indicative of a repeat pattern of behavior. And this pattern was not, imho, for the betterment of the nation. It was for private money laundering purposes.
Dick Cheney is not a statesman. He is the Godfather. And there is only one way to get rid of a Crime Boss like him.
Ben Franklin said it best with his version of the US dollar design: "Death to all Tyrants."
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Nice.
"Geese are but Geese tho' we may think 'em Swans; and Truth will be Truth tho' it sometimes prove mortifying and distasteful." BF
ThomasJefferson... July 13th, 2009 6:24 am.........Just a reminder that you may be interested in this unbelievably informative and documented article...in case you missed it's mention several times on this thread. You will not regret the time spent on this rather long read....
http:/www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/
Collateral_Damage_911.pdf
Thanks cynical,
There's no way anyone could write a fiction that detailed. The guy must be a CIA analyst with a love of his country. What a leak, huh?
Some of it may be wrong, but just look at the web of shadowy financial figures who clearly were under the media's radar (or who owned it) And are unknown to Americans.
I can attest that the Yamimito's Gold really did exist. One documented case was the massive reclining "Golden Buddha" found in Bagio, which was estimated in value at over 1 Bill US$. It was so heavy, Marcos guys couldn't move it, so they cut the head off to sell just that part! Inside was full of stolen jewels China had amassed throughout the ages. Much of this WWII Jap bootie (stolen from china) was scattered all over the islands, and believe it or not, much treasure hunting is still going on by Koreans, Japanese and others even today. I myself fancied the idea of snooping around, until I was told that active gun battles are routinely going on in those old Japanese "gravesites."
Better for me just to stay poor!
Sometimes The truth really is stranger than fiction!
Cheers,
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Look at that picture. That man lives in hell. His eyes are sad. In his heart he longs for death. His face is puffy and red. He can't stay sober, not after what he has done.
Right. My OPINION:
Cheney used the cia/assassination squads to cover his tracks and the tracks of the Saudi connections to OBL, put himself in charge of air defense, had shrub call off the fbi coverage of in country saudis, set the buildings up for controlled demolition, etc.
The Sauds got the bases moved out, the oil cos got the iraqi sweet crude, the MIC got the contracts, the neocons got the Constitution, congress, actually wanting to be lied to, rolled over for corp money, the generals got their fat jobs, Silverman got the insurance, facilitators got jobs in DHS, banks got a windfall and the treasury was looted.
Have they gotten away with it?
Not yet.
Will they?
No. Why? Because this is the part where it all starts to unravel for them. Some of it they do themselves, some will be done on them. It's called Karma, and it is an immutable law.
Grease the skids.
snydly July 13th, 2009 12:29 am.....Great post, friend! Good summary. OBL is just another patsy...the eternal enemy in Orwell..BTW, that's "Silverstein, Larry". Also interesting to note that if you look at WIKI about 9/11, his name is not mentioned AT ALL.....Gee, I wonder why?
It IS starting to unravel and there is going to be hell. It WILL happen. Please support NYC CAN.
This is just the TIP of the ICEBERG.
Read below and you will get a picture, how that ICEBERG sank the US. It will be extremely hard to swallow, and very painful to digest: “Collateral Damage” by E. P Heidner, part I and II.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
The two documents have just recently been published and are very well researched and referenced (over 400 footnotes). The articles are lengthy, some parts not easy to follow and to digest and they need to be read with an open mind. But they are well worth the effort. They provide the most distressing information (some reads like a thriller).
The implications will challenge how we look at politics, economy, history, finance, war and terrorism. Many persons in the documents are well known; many are right now in pivotal positions of politics and finance. These people do shape OUR life and that of our children right now. The details are stunning. The consequences are BEYOND BELIEF.
yachtie July 12th, 2009 6:40 pm ....Great work! Are you getting many responses?
No, but that is because nobody yet has found any fault or error in Heidner’s articles.
And that is TRULY frightening.
yachtie July 12th, 2009 6:56 pm........ Very scary! I believe folks are stunned by the enormity of the crime and are likely left with no idea of what to do. One may hope with a re-investigation of 9/11 that all this comes out in the open. There will then be hell to pay.
Sad thing is that hell will be not only with the perpetrating scum.
yachtie July 12th, 2009 7:09 pm............So true and unfortunate. The truth has consequences. I will gladly pay them to have this country set free of it's overlords.
Shane sez: "Efforts to reach Mr. Cheney through relatives and associates were unsuccessful."
***
Try calling Faux Nooz. I believe they keep his dirt-filled coffin in the basement.
"Questions over the adequacy and the truthfulness of the C.I.A.'s briefings for Congress date to the creation of the intelligence oversight committees in the 1970s after disclosures of agency assassination and mind-control programs and other abuses. But complaints increased in the Bush years, when the C.I.A. and other intelligence agencies took the major role in pursuing Al Qaeda."
Fool me once....
Criminal Thinking Errors
1. Closed Channel Thinking
--Not Receptive
--Not Self Critical
--No Disclosure
a. Good at pointing out, giving feedback on faults of others
b. Lies by omission
2. Victimstance
a. Views self as victim (the criminal will even blame social conditions)
b. Blames others
3. Views Self As A Good Person
a. Focuses only on her positive attributes
b. Fails to acknowledge his destructive behavior.
c. Builds self up at other's expense
4. Lack of Effort
a. Unwilling to do anything he finds boring or disagreeable
b. "I can't" meaning "I won't"
5. Lack of Interest in Responsible Performance
a. Responsible living=unexciting and unsatisfying
b. No sense of obligation
c. Will respond only if he nets an immediate payoff
6. Lack of Time Perspective
a. Does not use past as learning tool
b. Expects others to act immediately on his demands
c. Decisions on assumptions, not facts
7. Fear of Fear
a. Irrational fears (many) but refuses to admit them
b. Fundamental fear of injury or death
c. Profound fear of put down
d. When held accountable experiences "zero state" - feels worthless
8. Power Thrust
a. Compelled need to be in control of every situation
b. Uses manipulation and deceit
c. Refuses to be dependent unless he can take advantage of the situation
9. Uniqueness
a. Different and better than others
b. Expects of other that which he fails to meet
c. superoptimism - cuts fear of failure
d. quits at the first sign of failure
10. Ownership Attitude
a. Perceives all things, people, objects to possess
b. No concept of ownership, rights of others
c. Sex for power and control-not intimacy
Hey, People! Why is no one talking about what this secret project was??? It was an ASSASSINATION RING!
AnnT July 12th, 2009 2:15 pm....."Bad girl" Those words are not part of the Orwellian lexicon. You will now have to be "re-educated".
Cheney disregarded our constituional protection of illegal search and seizure and then hid his actions from Congress. He should be tried in a court for breaking the law. This is tantamount to Watergate. The crime cannot be whitewashed into a more pleasing color.
Cheney, like so many of his associates, talks and behaves like a guy who is scared; probably the first time in his cushy life that he is. He deferred his way out of the service, rose to the top in business and its servant - government, and with the 9/11 attack finally felt threatened when it dawned on him that he may have been one of the targets. Consequently, like one who has never faced an existential threat, he reacts totally out of proportion to that threat. Enhanced, of course, by the self-serving belief that his life has more value than others. It doesn't.
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 11:40 am...I'll tell you what this sorry excuse for a human being is fearful of: the truth of the false flag of 9/11.
I'm sorry, but whether it is a 'false flag operation' or an attack by 20 guys with boxcutters, I don't think it relevant any longer.
Do I think it beyond reason that the government would do something like 9/11? No, I don't. They are quite capable of committing such crimes. Do I think they did so? I no longer think it matters. If not 9/11 then something else would have triggered their assault on the Constitution.
But neither do I think it beyond reason that 'conspiracy buffs' (no disrespect meant) will see patterns that aren't there either. Given the penchant for governmental secrecy, and people's visceral distrust of government (probably a good thing) I find it is highly unlikely that definitive evidence either way will ever be known and/or universally accepted. People are still arguing about the Kennedy assassination for the same reasons.
My position is that whatever happened on 9/11 precipitated a lurch in govermental activity that is detrimental to both Americans and others. Arguing about how it happened, while personally satisfying, does nothing to address the real problem - which is the destruction of various parts of the Constitution as a result. That is what should be focused on and redressed.
If those who committed the attack on 9/11 wish for anything more than knocking down a few buildings, it is to encourage confusion and the endless argy-bargy about the causes and not the consequences, which frankly, I find more problematic
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 12:54 pm .........I cannot even respond to this dismissal of an horendous, unprecedented crime of immeasurable consequences which you claim should go uninvestigated.
I knew you'd jump on this one. And I too am sure you can't respond, so you dismiss and/or distort what I suggest.
I don't dismiss the crime, as you allege. I don't even dismiss your response. Nor do I object to further investigation.
But it is unlikely that any investigation will (for numerous reasons) come to the conclusion you seem to favor, or will ever be accepted by those who've already made up their mind that the government was responsible and/or involved. Consequently further investigation won't change anything or convince you even if it is indesputable that government wasn't involved.
What evidence would you accept that the government didn't have a hand in 9/11? Who would you trust to say so? My guess is nothing and nobody, so the controversy lives forever without resolution - and focusing on the conspiracy detracts from the efforts to redress the real damage done by the government in response to 9/11.
My guess is that no amount of investigation will be sufficient to assuage your beliefs. There has already been an investigation and it has returned a verdict. Granted it was an incomplete investigation, but it is all that we are likely to get.
As I honestly don't know whether the government was involved or not, I won't deny that what you claim may be valid. But I don't expect or trust government to find the truth. Neither do I trust 'truthers' with pet theories to find it.
I merely suggest that should further investigation occur it will yield one of two results: 1. it will discover that the Bush people or some rogue element within the government is responsible; or 2. it discovers that the government was not involved. If the former, that the Bush people were responsible then if history is any guide, the US will not allow this revelation or the punishment of the transgressors.
If the latter alternative, then see paragraph 4 above.
Why do I say so?
Because we already have a voluminous public record of some of the illegalities that the Bush people committed and even that public record has not generated any serious investigation let alone efforts at 'justice'.
And given that there are other, numerous, examples of well-documented crimes immune to justice - crimes of people like Kennedy, Kissinger, Nixon, Johnson, Clinton, Bush I, etc. that were never seriously investigated let alone prosecuted - I have no illusion that even if the government was involved in 9/11 that we will ever know or that the perpetrators will ever be punished. That's just not the way our world works. The powerful do what they want, the weak do what they must.
But I understand and share your outrage. The difference is that I don't see any way the government will investigate and condemn itself. Maybe we should exchange names since you just don't sound cynical enough.
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 3:15 .And I also knew YOU would jump on my reply.. Double touche'..........But, you are resigned to an outcome. Are you not? You say you are open to further investigation (actually, an investigation, since even members of the commission have admitted that it was incomplete and bias). To what end? Would not the purpose of an investigation be to uncover the truth and punish the perpetrators?
I, too, do not KNOW the government was involved,but I have come to my OWN conclusions based on personal research. Yes, I came to conclusions based on research.....I have given myself that license.
With the wealth of evidence that has become available, an INDEPENDENT investigation would come to whatever conclusion it came to and I would then accept that verdict. How can you assume I would not? The important part is to have an investigation independent of any possible bigotry. NYC CAN is working on that.
Focusing on the conspiracy gets to the root of the problem as with ANY disease. Symptomatic relief does not solve the issue and it will happen again unless the problem is solved at the source. The real damage started with 9/11 and similar false flags that have gone UN-INVESTIGATED. Therein lies the problem...acceptance and RESIGNATION.
My attitude is that there comes a time when the crimes MUST stop. Now is the time, while it's still fresh in the hearts and minds of our citizens.
It's actually my cynicism that pushes me in this direction. I trust no part of this government of betrayal, lies, deception, corporatocracy and elitism and demand that justice prevail.
To continue to accept crime after crime by the United States of America, Inc., is criminal in itself for which we ALL must take some responsibility. The way I personally take some measure of responsibility is to push for a new, independent and complete investigation, including subpoena and eventually prosecutorial powers. It's the least we can do for the victims and future victims of this atrocity...including women, children, infants and beings yet born.
'Xcuse me for butting in here.
Just wanted to give you both credit for a discussion with reason but then you both spoil it further down.
To the matter:
To say that things will be as they always have been decries that we are at a point where we've never been before. So, logic implies that any INDEPENDENT investigation, consisting of a multitude of analysts bound to the law of reason, scientific research and impartial integrity, could quite possibly have profound repercussions in public opinion and the law.
Times will get very tough and the dynamics of politics do/will change. And THAT is what Cheney and his chums suddenly realize.
Tirebiter, I recommend to read this:: “Collateral Damage” by E. P Heidner, part I and II.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
This will place another dimension of urgency to an INDEPENDENT investigation.
yachtie July 12th, 2009 7:12 pm...Better a little "personal passion" then the indifference we find in SO many Americans. I did fall into it, though....I usually do not.
You gotta sing it:
He roller-coaster he got
early warning He got
muddy water he one
mojo filter He say
"One and one and one is three"
Got to be good-looking 'cause he's so hard to see
COME TOGETHER RIGHT NOW over me
>Beatles<
“And I also knew YOU would jump on my reply.. Double touche'..........”
You're right. I couldn’t wait to see what you had to say! And touche' is sufficient. 'Double touche'' is unnecessarily redundant.
“But, you are resigned to an outcome. Are you not?”
Am I? Which outcome would this be?
“With the wealth of evidence that has become available, an INDEPENDENT investigation would come to whatever conclusion it came to and I would then accept that verdict. How can you assume I would not?”
Oh, an independent investigation. By whom?
It'd be nice, but it probably won't happen. And again, whose determinations of fact would you accept? And what evidence would be sufficient?
As for whether you would accept any realistic outcome or not – who knows? I only know about you from what I read? BTW do you believe that UFOs are controlled by intelligent extra-terrestrials? Just asking. (And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)
“The real damage started with 9/11 and similar false flags that have gone UN-INVESTIGATED.”
I agree, lots of ‘crimes’ have probably gone uninvestigated. Why have they gone un-investigated? And aren’t you making my point for me?
I don’t say that there shouldn’t be a justice in the world, which I assume is what you are suggesting, I’m just saying that it may be an unrealistic demand. There has never been justice in the world. Which is why people believe in an afterlife where souls are sorted into cosmic destinations based on one’s earthly decisions. Hardly satisfying to those of us who don't believe in such fairy tales.
No offense, and I may be wrong, but you sound like a relatively young man to have such strong views concerning 'criminality' and justice. I’m an old man and have found that such certainty about the world is more pathological than logical and that there is often a blurring of what satisfaction justice actually provides.
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 5:02 pm.........".'Double touche'' is unnecessarily redundant"....Excuse me, I took poetic license.
"Am I? Which outcome would this be?".......Sounds like defeat to me.
"Oh, an independent investigation. By whom? ".....An entity possibly appointed through a referendum.
"It'd be nice, but it probably won't happen."...Again, this is a defeatist attitude.
"BTW do you believe that UFOs are controlled by intelligent extra-terrestrials? Just asking"...........That has no concern in this discussion.
"And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)"...........The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was based on the false premise of 9/11....this has already been proved. At least a million Iraqis and Afghans have been slaughtered and the use of DU in the area will have untold consequences. This is relevant to this discussion, not UFOs.
"I agree, lots of ‘crimes’ have probably gone uninvestigated. Why have they gone un-investigated? And aren’t you making my point for me?"....Not at all...they have gone un-investigated because the populace is resigned to an outcome just as yourself.
As for whether you would accept any realistic outcome or not – who knows? I only know about you from what I read? BTW do you believe that UFOs are controlled by intelligent extra-terrestrials? Just asking. (And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)
“The real damage started with 9/11 and similar false flags that have gone UN-INVESTIGATED.”
I agree, lots of ‘crimes’ have probably gone uninvestigated. Why have they gone un-investigated? And aren’t you making my point for me?
"I don’t say that there shouldn’t be a justice in the world, which I assume is what you are suggesting, I’m just saying that it may be an unrealistic"...........I would have to re-check my post, but I do not believe I said there should not be justice. I simply said it's time for justice.
"There has never been justice in the world."...Not ALWAYS, but at times there is. That's a fairly sweeping statement.
"I’m an old man and have found that such certainty about the world is more pathological than logical and that there is often a blurring of what satisfaction justice actually provides....As I said separately, I'm 64. To call a desire for equal justice and obeisance to our laws is hardly pathological. Idealistic, maybe.
My apologies for being 64 and not living up to some pre-determined way of thinking. I enjoy keeping an open mind with the intention that life in this US will get better. I cannot fall into resignation. I see no future in giving TPTB that satisfaction.
“'Am I? Which outcome would this be?’.......Sounds like defeat to me.”
Nonsense. I have no attachment to any outcome, only trying to describe what I perceive as the reality of the situation. Why I don't think 9/11 was an inside job - what I think galls you - is because I don't see any compelling and irrefutable evidence in any of the 'truthers' claims of evidence. (see: Occam's Razor) And those who believe so sound like zealots - a class of individual whom I inherently distrust as much as I do government. And whose defeat did you have in mind?
'Oh, an independent investigation. By whom?'.....An entity possibly appointed through a referendum."
We have no political mechanism for such a referendum so how would you accomplish this? Reality please, 64, not wishful thinking. But I guess that when I recognize this reality, that makes me a defeatist.
"It'd be nice, but it probably won't happen."...Again, this is a defeatist attitude.
Again, that’s what you keep saying but you don’t explain whose defeat? Or why recognizing the actual extent of our power and ability for change rather than some magical power we don't possess is defeatist? The opposite analogue, the one describing the position you choose to adopt is 'delusional'. So would it make you feel better if each time you call me a 'defeatist' because I accept reality with all its warts, I can call you 'delusional' because you don't? Or should we perhaps just stick with the discussion.
"BTW do you believe that UFOs are controlled by intelligent extra-terrestrials? Just asking. (And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)"
This was just a toss-away question to see how suceptible you are to conspiracy theories. No big deal.
"And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)"...........The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was based on the false premise of 9/11....this has already been proved. At least a million Iraqis and Afghans have been slaughtered and the use of DU in the area will have untold consequences. This is relevant to this discussion, not UFOs.'
Since we’re discussing ‘false flag operations’ – you brought it up remember? – how does ‘criminal responsibility’, and ‘women and children yet to be born' come into play within the context of this discussion? You offer no rationale.
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I agree they were based on the false premise of 9/11 as you suggest, but this does nothing to justify your assertion that 9/11 was caused by the administration – which is what we are discussing – no? So is this relevant to the discussion? Or just your idealistic outrage peeking through?
”Not at all...they have gone un-investigated because the populace is resigned to an outcome just as yourself.”
You keep saying this, but offer no clue as to what that outcome to which I’m apparently resigned would be. Again, I am not tied to any particular outcome, only what I perceive as the reality of our situation.
"I don’t say that there shouldn’t be a justice in the world, which I assume is what you are suggesting, I’m just saying that it may be an unrealistic"...........I would have to re-check my post, but I do not believe I said there should not be justice. I simply said it's time for justice.”
If you carefully read what I wrote – and what you accurately reproduced here, you will find that I am saying that there should be justice in the world and that you have suggested the same thing. I never suggested you said 'there should not be justice'. Nothing in what you wrote ever suggested that, and I try to respond to what you actually post. Perhaps the double negative was confusing. My apologies.
"There has never been justice in the world."...Not ALWAYS, but at times there is. That's a fairly sweeping statement.
Think so? Then please give me an example of when there’s been justice in the world.
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 5:02 pm................I'm 64. No offence, but you sound TOO old.
Don't be offended, 64, and 'good on you' as our Aussie brothers say; then its just your posts that sound juvenile. At least I got your sex right.
Tirebiter July 12th, 2009 5:41 pm..........Again, my apologies for sounding juvenile and not living up to your expectations or abilities that would put me in your class of commenter. I do my best with what I have.
No apologies are due to me - though I think them facetious. I honestly mean no disrespect to you, but I find it incredible that there are people our age who still view the world through the lenses of 'what should be' instead of 'what is' - which is only what I try to describe. Unless we've had vastly different experiences - which I doubt if they're that different. That is why I call your posts in this thread juvenile - though perhaps a little harsh. But I find it better to decide things based on how things are than how you want them to be. If your way has worked for you, fine. It has never worked for me and I don't really believe they worked for you either. Otherwise you wouldn't call yourself 'cynical', would you?
Do I like the way things are? Mostly not. But I know there is nothing I can do about some things. But yes, I agree with you that the world would be far better if we were all concerned with truth and justice but that is just not the way the world is. I only call it like I see it.
In general, what you call my 'defeatist' attitude I would call realism; the acceptance of a law of force and governmental power just as real as the law of gravity. We as a people are beaten by government. We can not stand up to its power. To believe you can is a delusion and I try not to live with delusion. That we are slaves to our governments is a fact and no sugar-coating will change that. That's the way it's always been and the way it is. Call me a defeatist, if you like, for describing how the world works, it will not change anything. I prefer my painful reality to a relatively painless illusion.
Tirebiter July 13th, 2009 10:25 am.............Part One...........'Am I? Which outcome would this be?’.......Sounds like defeat to me.”
Nonsense. I have no attachment to any outcome, only trying to describe what I perceive as the reality of the situation.................................(. Your attachment to the outcome is your description of the reality which in essence is that a re-investigation will need no where.)..........................Why I don't think 9/11 was an inside job - what I think galls you - is because I don't see any compelling and irrefutable evidence in any of the 'truthers' claims of evidence. (see: Occam's Razor)...................(..Could be you have not looked at all the evidence........ how about the fact that unexploded nano-particles of thermite were found in many dust samples from around ground zero...verified by scientists around the globe......what happened to EIGHT titanium engines...what could have vaporized them? Why did three steel structured buildings collapse at almost free fall speed from fire, when in the history of the world, this has never happened before. YET, on 9/11, it occurred three times and WTC 7 was not even hit by an aircraft? These are all facts, not the ramblings of a zealot. And check out these links..............
http://www.twf.org/News/Y2009/0702-Flight77.html
http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/132013171/researchers-release-9-11-pentagon-attack-report
. And those who believe so sound like zealots - a class of individual whom I inherently distrust as much as I do government..................(.People who are seeking the truth and accountability from a criminal and unbelievably corrupt government are zealots?)... And whose defeat did you have in mind?....................(Quite simply the defeat of those of us seeking the truth or at least a re-investigation. )
'Oh, an independent investigation. By whom?'.....An entity possibly appointed through a referendum."
We have no political mechanism for such a referendum so how would you accomplish this?..........................(Why do you think that things that have never been done before cannot be done. How would any innovation EVER be accomplished.?) Reality please, 64, not wishful thinking.................(. Nothing in REALITY leave out POSSIBILITY!.) But I guess that when I recognize this reality, that makes me a defeatist...................(.Sure as hell closes your mind to new possibilities and new thinking...like outside the box of your reality.)
"It'd be nice, but it probably won't happen."...Again, this is a defeatist attitude.
Again, that’s what you keep saying but you don’t explain whose defeat? Or why recognizing the actual extent of our power and ability for change rather than some magical power we don't possess is defeatist? .....................(Again, it's not a question of "magical powers". It's a question of attempting methods that have not been tried instead of accepting the system the way it is.) The opposite analogue, the one describing the position you choose to adopt is 'delusional'....................(Sounds fairly Orwellian to me; anything outside the accepted mode of thought becomes delusional.) So would it make you feel better if each time you call me a 'defeatist' because I accept reality with all its warts, I can call you 'delusional' because you don't?...I never said I did not accept reality. Basically, what I have said is that you can create a different reality by not being resigned to the way TPTB have conditioned you to believe. Or should we perhaps just stick with the discussion.........
"BTW do you believe that UFOs are controlled by intelligent extra-terrestrials? Just asking. (And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)"
This was just a toss-away question to see how suceptible you are to conspiracy theories. No big deal..........................(Sure it's a big deal....it's a method of debate to get off the topic....used all the time on the box by Faux News commentators and the like.)
"And just as relevant as the last half of your post about 'criminal responsibility, and women and children yet to be born'.)"..........(.The invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan was based on the false premise of 9/11....this has already been proved. At least a million Iraqis and Afghans have been slaughtered and the use of DU in the area will have untold consequences. This is relevant to this discussion, not UFOs.'..........(.Of course it's relevant...the false flag of 9/11 was behind the illegal invasion of two sovereign nations and the use of depleted uranium ammunitions in both of these countries.)
Part two............
Since we’re discussing ‘false flag operations’ – you brought it up remember? – how does ‘criminal responsibility’, and ‘women and children yet to be born' come into play within the context of this discussion? You offer no rationale. ...............(See above.)
As for Iraq and Afghanistan, I agree they were based on the false premise of 9/11 as you suggest, but this does nothing to justify your assertion that 9/11 was caused by the administration – which is what we are discussing – no? .....................(This seems so obvious as to be silly, but even if the admin was not involved in 9/11, they still used it as an excuse to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. They distorted the evidence to fit the policy. Bin Laden, from lack of any evidence involving him in 9/11, is not even on the FBI's most wanted list.) So is this relevant to the discussion? Or just your idealistic outrage peeking through?
”Not at all...they have gone un-investigated because the populace is resigned to an outcome just as yourself.”
You keep saying this, but offer no clue as to what that outcome to which I’m apparently resigned would be. Again, I am not tied to any particular outcome, only what I perceive as the reality of our situation................(Again, the reality you perceive is that a re-investigation would lead no where. This is not necessarily so. You have formed a pre-conceived notion.)
"I don’t say that there shouldn’t be a justice in the world, which I assume is what you are suggesting, I’m just saying that it may be an unrealistic"...........I would have to re-check my post, but I do not believe I said there should not be justice. I simply said it's time for justice.”
If you carefully read what I wrote – and what you accurately reproduced here, you will find that I am saying that there should be justice in the world and that you have suggested the same thing. I never suggested you said 'there should not be justice'. Nothing in what you wrote ever suggested that, and I try to respond to what you actually post.
"There has never been justice in the world."...Not ALWAYS, but at times there is. That's a fairly sweeping statement.
Think so? Then please give me an example of when there’s been justice in the world...........(.Ted Bundy, Jeffry Dahmer, Kristen Gilbert, Charles Manson,...shall I go on?) No apologies are due to me - though I think them facetious.............(That is your judgement to which you are certainly entitled.).... I honestly mean no disrespect to you, but I find it incredible that there are people our age who still view the world through the lenses of 'what should be' instead of 'what is' - which is only what I try to describe. ..................(I do not think that seeking justice through a proper and legitimate process (which most admit the 9/11 Commision report WAS NOT) is a question of idealism and what "should be". It IS a question of doing what is necesssary under our laws.) Unless we've had vastly different experiences - which I doubt if they're that different. That is why I call your posts in this thread juvenile - though perhaps a little harsh. But I find it better to decide things based on how things are than how you want them to be. If your way has worked for you, fine. It has never worked for me and I don't really believe they worked for you either......(Again, you make a personal judgement, not knowing in the least who I am. ) Otherwise you wouldn't call yourself 'cynical', would you?........(.A rose of any other etc................just a name..).
Do I like the way things are? Mostly not. But I know there is nothing I can do about some things. But yes, I agree with you that the world would be far better if we were all concerned with truth and justice but that is just not the way the world is. I only call it like I see it..........(..Maybe it's a good idea to explore other possibilities...other views....that could lead to some shift from the way things are to something better.)
In general, what you call my 'defeatist' attitude I would call realism; the acceptance of a law of force and governmental power just as real as the law of gravity..............(Truth is, there are ways to overcome gravity, just as there are ways to overcome this tyrannical government. They have just not been examined closely enough and utilized.) We as a people are beaten by government. ....(.If this is not a defeatist attitude, I do not know what is.) We can not stand up to its power. To believe you can is a delusion and I try not to live with delusion. That we are slaves to our governments is a fact and no sugar-coating will change that. That's the way it's always been and the way it is. Call me a defeatist, if you like, for describing how the world works, it will not change anything. I prefer my painful reality to a relatively painless illusion...........(The way things are is not the way they have to be. I, for one, will continue the fight until I am gone. So, will many other and legions after them.)
A lot to chew on, 64, so I posted a response at the top of the thread for readability. See you there.
cynical
How cynical, cheney involvement in 9-11? Hell obviously yes. with the mossad. and MI5.
Microwave his sneering ass and get it over with.
"the law says that briefings can be limited to the so-called Gang of Eight, consisting of the Republican and Democratic leaders of both houses of Congress and of their intelligence committees"
Indeed. So "the law" mandates that there are only two parties in this country. What if a party such as the Greens started getting elected to the House and/or Senate? Would they be banned from serving on the intell committees? Would they be prohibited BY LAW from being briefed? (Of course that would be easy: they would never in a million years get a security clearance above "terrorist".)
Would the Republicrats refuse to allow them to be seated at all???
What say you Democrats/liberals out there?
I have some inside information and it goes far beyond wiretapping, it is icky beyond belief. It has nothing to do with counter terrorism (same vein as WMD in Iraq). The motivation was using fossil energy to control the world.
"He went to the Supreme Court to keep secret the advisers to his task force on energy, and won."
Another "win" by one of the largest lobbying groups on Capitol Hill. It appears the arbitrator of "constitutional" questions has turned itself into the "protector" of coprorate power.
Where in the constitution does it give the Supreme Court "judicial supremacy" to rule over Congress? But the bigger question is why did Congress accept this ruling without a rational explanation as to how this decision would keep the country any safer?
Furthermore, in light of this secret counterterrorism program, how can Congress fulfill its constitutional mandate to provide funds and keep track of where our tax dollars being spent if they are being kept in the dark?
A more appropriate name for this country would be something like the "National Security" Police State of America.
If you want to know why they think like they do, Google "Thinking Errors". Cheney specific thinking errors can be found by scrolling down to "Criminal Thinking Errors".
Peace
its quite obvious to anyone with a half of a brain that the
military industrial runs both the government and the d.o.d.
bribe the politicians and then offer high ranking officers
million + dollar job when they retire. no ethics or scruples
in either place so it becomes a piece of cake! why would
anyone spend 2-5 mi. on a political race that pays 150-170 k
a year. its steal as much as you can as fast as you can
then either lose an election or retire and become a lobbyist
bribing your former colleagues.at least prostitutes are
honest about how they make their money and what their will
ing to do for it. these monsters have no conscience what
so ever. when we fear government we have a dictatorship
when it fears us we have democracy.we need to look to europe
for the solutions to our problems! they have democracy
and in italy and france the govt. fears them!our
system has failed us and we need to change it!
everyone stop buying the lying NEW YORK TIMES until they print the truth of 911, the Bush crime family, the crimes of the gang of eight etc....
toubibcal July 12th, 2009 4:33 am...........Exactly!...Have you read this?.......
http:/www.israelshamir.net/Contributors/
Collateral_Damage_911.pdf
I see that many are making excuses again, in he was not brought up to speed, kept in the dark, you name it the excuses know no limit! As a country that has committed suicide, we are making a lot of noise dying. There is but one course of action. There are many people in the USA guilty of war crimes that should be arrested and tried, not in a US court, they are far to corrupt, but in the court in the Hague. Citizens need to get together in force arrest or otherwise detain these crook, killers etc. Including Obama the coward and Pelosi the republican mouth piece. If this or some similar action is not taken, most freedoms not now gone will disappear in the next year or so. You can expect confiscation of all weapons, loss of your homes and anything of value, forced service military and otherwise, virtual slavery in being confined by law to a given area (concentration camps). All this is now happening, wake up! or DIE!!!
The USA = a corporate republic.
"Cheney Is Linked to Concealment of C.I.A. Project." From WRH (whatreallyhappened.com): Most online observers have concluded that the program in question is the assassination team that reported directly to Vice President Dick Cheney reported by Sy Hersch.
Here's THAT link:
Lawmaker won’t deny secret CIA program was ‘Cheney assassination ring’
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/10/lawmaker-wont-deny-cia-program-was-cheney-assassination-ring/
"Democrats in Congress, who contend that the Bush administration improperly limited Congressional briefings on intelligence, are seeking to change the National Security Act to permit the full intelligence committees to be briefed on more matters. President Obama, however, has threatened to veto the intelligence authorization bill if the changes go too far, and the proposal is now being negotiated by the White House and the intelligence committees."
WHOSE SIDE IS OBAMA ON???? WHY IS HE PROTECTING "THE COMPANY" AKA C.I.A. FROM LEGITIMATE OVERSIGHT PROTECTION FOR THE SAFETY AND LIBERTY OF THE US CITIZENS? WHAT IS OBAMA GETTING OUT OF HIS PROTECTION OF BUSH, CHENEY ET AL?
OBAMA IS A FRAUD AND AS MUCH A DANGER TO OUR DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM AS BUSH AND CHENEY!!! THEY SHOULD ALL GO TO JAIL!
You are correct.
We could make a fortune if we had these bastards in jail and could charge Admission to have people go by and throw stuff at them.
Special Prosecutor for Cheney and Bush? It should also be appointed for the National Media who keep putting Dark Vadir on the Lobbyist's networks, The big media of America. Its time these filthy disgusting scumbags face music and answer for the crimes they have committed. They should all be tried for treason in time of war and face the consequences. They have destroyed our constitutional freedoms and they should face the consequences.
They should be charged with all the murders they have committed in the name of their war that they made based on lies and deceit. Its time for a truth commission indeed.
Prosecute, the scumbags to the maximum the law will allow. Oh on the other hand send the bastards to Abugrabi and put a hood on them and 12 volts DC charge to their little pricks like they do to the innocent people they willfully authorized torture for in Iraq. Anyone who works to willfully dismantle the constitution of the United States, should be tried as the treasonous bastards they are in time of war and face the traditional consequences. Waterboard them if its so ok. They will be shown as some of the most dishonest and murderous monsters since Hitler or Stalin
What was the warrant less surveillance program????
How about investigating, Infragard,Citizen Corp, the IAFF and EMS first responders role in gang stalking surveillance, community watch groups directed by the FBI and DHS to create suspects for the purpose of building a nation wide right wing Christian stazi police force and unconstitutional sntichs and thugs.
And all these willing constitutional violators have been sworn in with loyalty oaths so they dare not speak of abuses.
All for power, money and control over liberal dissidents, so that a minority of right wing fear/war mongers could hijack our Democracy and country.
For 2.7 years I have been warning the public of all these activitys, and begging for people to demand accountability of these unconstitutional leaders of these groups.
The goal of this control is obvious, turn over all security and warrant less surveillance to private military industrial complex in the form of private contracts.
With most of these organizations being Republican backed and owned , they could crush all intellectual left wing moderation of their take over.
This is a treasonous and criminal act of capitalism trying to steal us blind and destroy the constitution with natzi like control.
BornFreeMen
Warrant less surveillance gang stalking torture victim of right wing militant domestic terrorists torture groups.
I am still waiting for the day that they admit what they did to me, tell my community I am not crazy and pay me damages for pain and suffering.
What will it take to:
1. end the illegal U.S. wars of aggression?
2. get single-payer health care for all of us?
3. prosecute all the war criminals from the last 8 years?
4. get living-wage jobs for our growing ranks of unemployed?
5. cut the obscenely huge war budget?
It will take tens of thousands of us in the streets of EVERY large city continuously for weeks, as in Iran, and a General Strike. Short of that, nothing will pressure the Corporate Tools in the White House and Congress to make any real changes.
YOU ARE CORRECT.... THE GOOD THING ABOUT HIGH UNEMPLOYMENT IS MORE TIME TO GO OUT AND DEMONSTRATE!!! Fuck the system!
"Fuck the system!"
Au contraire! (yeah it's probly spelt rong)
MONKEYWRENCH the system. Be creative. Do NOT physically harm people or property. It can be done. If one needs to ask "how?" then one should probably not participate in such actions.
I think the system is doing a fine job of monkeywrenching itself. The waiting - in this case the waiting for the system to self-destruct - is always the hard part. But be patient, if history is any guide, its arrival is inevitable.
Cheney-Bush decided that the legislators elected by the people couldn,t be trusted. They violated our constitutional protections. They took us to war based on lies. They tortured and damaged our standing in the world. Will nothing be done about their evil leadership?
"So"?
As habituates of this site know well, I have called Dick Cheney the Cardinal Richelieu of American politics. This particular tidbit merely reinforces this, and I truly wish this was not so.
Nate,
There's a crucial difference between Richelieu and Cheney. Richelieu left France a more powerful country; France replaced Spain as the leading European power in the 17th Century. This was partially due to Spain's self-inflicted economic and military decline. Spain, like all would-be hegemons, took on too many enemies at once and became overextended. Its economy was also mismanaged and actually ended up suffering from the influx of gold from the lands they stole from the Native Americans. Stealing other peoples' land and mining their gold was the 16th Century equivalent of printing money, and it ended up like all excessive monetary expansions. However, Richelieu was also effective at expanding France's influence; his alliance with Sweden in the Thirty Years' War proved to be fruitful.
Cheney has been an unmitigated disaster for America. Expanding on the foolish and short-sighted financial deregulation of the Clinton years, ignoring the warning signs of massive fraud in the mortgage market, starting a trillion dollar war for ever-shifting reasons. Worst. Vice-President. Ever.
Cheney has been an unmitigated disaster for America because HE IS NOT WORKING FOR AMERICA.
He is part of a system that has no regard to humans and humanism. It is a psychopathic system (Psychopathy: a psychological construct that describes chronic immoral and antisocial behaviour).
The agenda at the core of the increasing financial and economical world misery is the set course to initiate exactly a situation like 1921/23.
Why on earth would anyone want to create a situation like that?
World hyperinflation will not be able to be covered by individual states like Germany did then. This time the whole world is infected and affected. The tools of doom have been perfected and set in motion. The consequence: a total obliteration of economical, financial, social and political structures, where people will choose anything and anybody promising to get them out of the dilemma, as they did with Hitler.
As this is a worldwide dilemma, a New World Order will offer itself as pragmatic innovative opportunity.
People will (have to) abandon sovereign states in favor of a concerted effort: a One World Government.
I can hear many people think: just another conspiracy theory!
Well, the biggest part of that agenda has been done. The rest will FALL into place.
America and the world have been had.
Want to get the bigger picture?
Read “Collateral Damage” by E. P Heidner, part I and II.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
VAGreen -- excellent point regarding Richelieu's legacy in terms of where his country was upon his departure in realpolitik terms. I intend to reference more the Cardinal's methods and the public perception of him (a lot of which comes from Alexander Dumas' novels), plus the Darth Vader characterization is so being done by everyone else.
Perhaps it is time to come up with another historical parallel of an evil and ultimately incompetent adviser who's actions are a massive detriment to the country. Conversely, it may well be so that Dick Cheney is such a malign figure in US and world history that he will come to define the essence of a despised "power-behind-the-throne" archetype. I absolutely agree with you in regards to Cheney being the worst Vice President ever, as he makes Aaron Burr look like an ethical guy in comparison.
I don't want to get everyone's hopes up, including my own, but according to an article on Huffington Post, it says AG Eric Holder is "leaning towards" appointing a special prosecutor to investigate the Bush Admin. and CIA for torture.
about frickin' time.
So the Constitution is a bunch of words and the old oligarch might as well have used the F-word to describe the Constitution. A private king just took some loose government money and set up his own small, secret army. I assume that the secret agency was preparing to transplant a heart from a living Hugo Chavez into Dick Cheney.
Killing two birds with one stone.
Cheney is guilty of treason, but that's no big deal if you are a Republican (or a DINO). However, we need a healthcare plan for everyone so we put Cheney in a stockade (of course we'll have a "biscuit" medical team right there to make sure he doesn't kick the bucket. People are charged $100 a tomato throw from 25 yards (maximm one throw per person per week...there's a rather long waiting list).
Let's do the math:
1) One throw every 15 seconds = 4/minute = 240/hour = 2400 per day (ten hours-the Rumsfield workday).
2) 2,400 X $100 = $240,000 a day.
3) This is used to "lobby" congress for the universal health care.
We can keep this up for years. Just think of the proceeds from Addington, Rove, Rice, Rumsfield, etc. et al. Talk about innovative financial products in entrepreneurial capitalism! Hell, I'd pay $50 or more for a tomato right between Paulson or Greedspan's eyes and I'm poor.
hehehe!!
If the Attorney General(Eric do nothing Holder) would only put handcuffs on the slimly bastard maybe it would speed that indestructable pace mmaker up and burst his icebox heart out. We would never be that lucky. Which title does he like best? Vice Dictator or the most hated punk in the world.
It is obvious what needs to be done, after Bush, Cheney and their subordinates have committed numerous crimes and killed or wounded millions of Iraqis and Afghans, and killed over 4000 US soldiers.
The precedent is Nuremberg. Note the words below by Robert Jackson in his opening statement of the Nuremberg Tribunal:
"The privilege of opening the first trial in history for crimes against the peace of the world imposes a grave responsibility. The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated. . . .
"The common sense of mankind demands that law shall not stop with the punishment of petty crimes by little people. It must also reach men who possess themselves of great power and make deliberate and concerted use of it to set in motion evils which. leave no home in the world untouched. . . .
"What makes this inquest significant is that these prisoners represent sinister influences that will lurk in the world long after their bodies have returned to dust. We will show them to be living symbols of racial hatreds, of terrorism and violence, and of the arrogance and cruelty of power. They are symbols of fierce nationalisms and of militarism, of intrigue and war-making which have embroiled Europe generation after generation, crushing its manhood, destroying its homes, and impoverishing its life. They have so identified themselves with the philosophies they conceived and with the forces they directed that any tenderness to them is a victory and an encouragement to all the evils which are attached to their names. Civilization can afford no compromise with the social forces which would gain renewed strength if we deal ambiguously or indecisively with the men in whom those forces now precariously survive.
"What these men stand for we will patiently and temperately disclose. We will give you undeniable proofs of incredible events. The catalog of crimes will omit nothing that could be conceived by a pathological pride, cruelty, and lust for power."
(The links below are split to get by the CD spam filters.)
http://www.roberthjackson.
org/Man/theman2-7-8-1/
http://www.yale.
edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/imt.htm
Thank you.
What a great association to the precedent, the Nuremberg trials!
Describes perfectly the CABAL.
“Collateral Damage” by E. P Heidner, part I and II.
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
Place your bets on the media response to this, folks:
A) The sounds of silence.
B) Panetta "misspoke". Issues apology for for alluding to conduct unbecoming a vice-president.
C) According to government sources, Panetta never said any such thing. This has been a disgusting distortion by the liberal media. Panetta has resigned to spend more time with his family. Right wing adopts new slang term "being Panettad" for slander.
D) Cheney has an interview with Diane Sawyer on the issue. His comment: "SO?".
Let me get this straight:
- The CIA director, Leon Panetta, wasn't aware of this secret CIA program.
- The Congress Gang of 8 wasn't aware of it.
- I assume President Obama wasn't aware of it; otherwise he would have talked to Leon Panetta.
Who the heck then is controlling the CIA? The appear to be a rogue organization defining their own mission.
Progressive101 July 11th, 2009 9:17 pm..............Always have been....other international covert agencies know more about our CIA than the CONgress, Executive and Judicial branches. AND, the CIA confides in them far above the US government....
Cicero: "Freedom is participation in power."
AHA! You correctly identified the most important info in this article. General Hayden is the key sociopath that needs to be put under oath with no immunity regarding the Cheney terror war/shadow government. Its precepts are clearly still in operation though Prezdint Otoken is in the White House. Hayden glories in wallowing in the shadow loop above and beyond the law and demanding that the public conform to the lawless "protection" of Big Brother. He MUST know about this mystery program Panetta just killed. Hayden publicly claimed that he took it upon himself to authorize massive warrantless surveillance before even Team Bush knew about it and before any legalistic defenses were cooked up about it. David Addington, Undead Dick Cheney and their personal assistants who carried their briefs for them to all the secret and illegal meetings they held are next in line. They only need one or two to turn evidence to start playing them off one another. IF we still had rule of law and not an aristo-oligarchical Fugue State.
And what will be done about this? Will the press badger Congress to investigate? Will Congress be in an uproar? Will Cheney be cross examined on Fox News? Will the people demand answers? Will Obama be outraged and appoint a special prosecutor?
No.
I wish CD would stop showing pictures of that despicable piece of shit every time there's news about him. It was bad enough seeing his face while he was in office. Enough already, he's disgusting.
Actually, I was thinking how downright cuddly The Dick appears in the photo above. You can't even see the horns.
Cheney on top, (possibly in collusion with the "gang of eight")? So secret and disturbing that if really knew what was going on we wouldn't approve? Illegal? This is what happens when you get the "best and brightest" from the business world to run your government. When they were climbing up on top of that pedestal, they forgot their scruples.
How much MORE evidence do you need that Dick and George committed treason?
Walk in peace.