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TechnoratiZinn: US 'In Need of Rebellion'
Al Jazeera speaks to Howard Zinn, the author, American historian, social critic and activist, about how the Iraq war damaged attitudes towards the US and why the US "empire" is close to collapse.
Q: Where is the United States heading in terms of world power and influence?
![[Howard Zinn is the author of, most notably, A People's History of the United States, a National-Book-Award-nominated text that investigates US history from the standpoint of the oppressed. Other books by Zinn include Declarations of Independence: Cross-Examining American Ideology and his 1995 autobiography, You Can't be Neutral on a Moving Train.]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/0909-0.jpg "0909-0.jpg")
HZ: America has been heading - for some time, and is heading right now - toward less and less world power, less and less influence.
This is an empire which is on the one hand the most powerful empire that ever existed; on the other hand an empire that is crumbling - an empire that has no future ... because the rest of the world is alienated and simply because this empire is top-heavy with military commitments, with bases around the world, with the exhaustion of its own resources at home.
[This is] leading to more and more discontent and home, so I think the American empire will go the way of other empires and I think it is on its way now.
Q: Is there any hope the US will change its approach to the rest of the world?
HZ: If there is any hope, the hope lies in the American people.
[It] lies in American people becoming resentful enough and indignant enough over what has happened to their country, over the loss of dignity in the world, over the starving of human resources in the United States, the starving of education and health, the takeover of the political mechanism by corporate power and the result this has on the everyday lives of the American people.[There is also] the higher and higher food prices, the more and more insecurity, the sending of the young people to war.
I think all of this may very well build up into a movement of rebellion.
We have seen movements of rebellion in the past: The labour movement, the civil rights movement, the movement against the war in Vietnam.
I think we may well see, if the United States keeps heading in the same direction, a new popular movement. That is the only hope for the United States.
Q: How did the US get to this point?
HZ: Well, we got to this point because ... I suppose the American people have allowed it to get it to this point because there were enough Americans who were satisfied with their lives, just enough.
Of course, many Americans were not, that is why half of the population doesn't vote, they're alienated.
But there are just enough Americans who have been satisfied, you might say getting some of the "goodies" of the empire, just some of them, just enough people satisfied to support the system, so we got this way because of the ability of the system to maintain itself by satisfying just enough of the population to keep its legitimacy.
And I think that era is coming to an end.
Q: What should the world know about the United States?
HZ: What I find many people in the rest of the world don't know is that there is an opposition in the United States.
Very often, people in the rest of the world think that Bush is popular, they think 'oh, he was elected twice', they don't understand the corruption of the American political system which enabled Bush to win twice.They don't understand the basic undemocratic nature of the American political system in which all power is concentrated within two parties which are not very far from one another and people cannot easily tell the difference.
So I think we are in a situation where we are going to need some very fundamental changes in American society if the American people are going to be finally satisfied with the kind of society we have.
Q: Do you think the US can recover from its current position?
HZ: Well, I am hoping for a recovery process. I mean, so far we haven't seen it.
You asked about what the people of the rest of the world don't know about the United States, and as I said, they don't know that there is an opposition.
There always has been an opposition, but the opposition has always been either crushed or quieted, kept in the shadows, marginalised so their voices are not heard.
People in the rest of the world hear the voices of the American leaders.
They do not hear the voices of the people all over this country who do not like the American leaders who want different policies.
I think also, people in the rest of the world should know that what they see in Iraq now is really a continuation of a long, long term of American imperial expansion in the world.
I think ... a lot of people in the world think that this war in Iraq is an aberration, that before this the United States was a benign power.
It has never been a benign power, from the very first, from the American Revolution, from the taking-over of Indian land, from the Mexican war, the Spanish-American war.
It is embarrassing to say, but we have a long history in this country of violent expansion and I think not only do most people in other countries [not] know this, most Americans don't know this.
Q: Is there a way for this to improve?
HZ: Well you know, whatever hope there is lies in that large number of Americans who are decent, who don't want to go to war, who don't want to kill other people.
It is hard to see that hope because these Americans who feel that way have been shut out of the communications system, so their voices are not heard, they are not seen on the television screen, but they exist.
I have gone through, in my life, a number of social movements and I have seen how at the very beginning of these social movements or just before these social movements develop, there didn't seem to be any hope.
I lived in the [US] south for seven years, in the years of the civil rights movements, and it didn't seem that there was any hope, but there was hope under the surface.
And when people organised, and when people began to act, when people began to work together, people began to take risks, people began to oppose the establishment, people began to commit civil disobedience.
Well, then that hope became manifest ... it actually turned into change.
Q: Do you think there is a way out of this and for the future influence of the US on the world to be a positive one?
HZ: Well, you know for the United States to begin to be a positive influence in the world we are going to have to have a new political leadership that is sensitive to the needs of the American people, and those needs do not include war and aggression.
[It must also be] sensitive to the needs of people in other parts of the world, sensitive enough to know that American resources, instead of being devoted to war, should be devoted to helping people who are suffering.
You've got earthquakes and natural disasters all over the world, but the people in the United States have been in the same position as people in other countries.
The natural disasters here [also] brought little positive reaction - look at [Hurricane] Katrina.
The people in this country, the poor people especially and the people of colour especially, have been as much victims of American power as people in other countries.
Q: Can you give us an overall scope of everything we talked about - the power and influence of the United States?
HZ: The power and influence of the United States has declined rapidly since the war in Iraq because American power, as it has been exercised in the world historically, has been exposed more to the rest of the world in this situation and in other situations.
So the US influence is declining, its power is declining.
However strong a military machine it is, power does not ultimately depend on a military machine. So power is declining.
Ultimately power rests on the moral legitimacy of a system and the United States has been losing moral legitimacy.
My hope is that the American people will rouse themselves and change this situation, for the benefit of themselves and for the benefit of the rest of the world.
281 Comments so far
Show AllI've been to other countries and people are amazed at the lack of education in the United States and the propaganda which we call "News".
The corporate plutocracy that has taken over the government had a very effective plan: Demolish the education system and create a vast propaganda machine so that people don't even know their history and make them ignorant of the takeover. There was a time when Greek and Latin were required classes in public school. High School graduates were expected to know Civics and United States (and world) History, as well as classical literature. This is now a country where people spend hours watching tabloid gossip and the home shopping club on TV instead of reading. The emphasis in education toward "usefull skills for the job market" instead of learning how to think and base thoughts on historical context is frightening.
Absolutely!
Only knowledge will set you free.
Like a bee to honey, I honed right on "in need of rebellion". In my circles almost everyday when people start discussing their issues with just surviving, paying for food, fuel and housing, after the "rich getting richer and poor getting poorer" comment comes "we need a rebellion". Then someone always says, "yeah, but it'll never happen. Americans are a bunch of sheep and afraid of rocking the boat. Don't want to upset the status quo." I keep wondering who these people are that are sheep, and asleep at the wheel of the 2 ton F250s. Perhaps they are us.
Revolutions don't have to take the traditional guns and roses format. They can be alternative revolutions...say, something radical like - just stop. Stop consuming. Stop buying. Close the highways. No more export/import from ANYWHERE else. Open the doors of all the locals businesses and redistribute the necessities so everyone has exactly the same amount of food, fuel and everyone has a place to stay out of the weather, safely. Then, slowly, slowly, really take a look at what we NEED to live, and what is FUELING THE CONSUMERISM monster that has us all by the shorthairs -- do this in the spring so we have three months to plant gardens, hunt, fish, decide what animals really need to be killed to feed us -- and so on and so on. JUST STOP CONSUMING. Don't allow it. BLock the roads into your towns and cities and decide to fend for yourselves until you see just how much you really need TVs from Taiwan, avocados from California, oranges from Florida, natural gas or oil from Iraq or ALaska...etc. etc.
This is would be the only REAL REVOLUTION worth fighting. If we do this now while we are NOT in crisis mode and being forced to do this anyway, much more painfully at the cost of lives, this would be a VERY POWERFUL WEAPON. But, it must well up and be the most important thing on our agenda. THis kind of grassroots rebellion for the purpose of saving ourselves and the planet and helping one another through to a BRAVE NEW WORLD, is proactive, expansive not contractive, and way outside of the box. Its out of their control but it IS in OUR control to do this -- and its the only thing that will work.
Radical? yes. Rebellious? Hell yes. Will it work? What's the worst that can happen? what will happen anyway. At least we make the choice ourselves and we take the wheel and decide our own destinies instead of having them decided for us by people who couldn't care less about who well we are faring. Sound familiar? Do you feel a stirring in your breasts? Talk amongst yourselves...how can this be done effectively? But don't wait until the "time is right" -- we don't have any left. Just do it. STOP. JUST STOP.
As the global economy collapses, which seems ever more likely, this may happen anyway. But, I certainly agree with you (as you can see from my comment to MiMiCcS above) less and local is always better. But I hope you keep your compassion for the man that feeds his family in the TV assembly factory in Taiwan, too. Does he just slip through the cracks once you and your neighbours are self sufficient?
My compassion, and, hopefully, the new basis for our foreign policy, would be expressed in helping that fellow in Taiwan and his neighbors to be likewise self sufficient. Bioregional self sufficiency would do more to promote individual security and defuse more of the motivations (outside of sheer greed) for conflict than just about any other "plan" I can think of. The idea that we must "be competitive in the global market" is about the most destructive mythology that has been foisted on us, all of us here and abroad, in a very long time.
As a person of colour, a U.S. citisen but not an American (I was born in Kobe, Japan), and a person of low economic class, I must say that even though I hope to see a democrat in power who will hopefully fix this, I myself am rather discouraged by the games they played to get Bush in, from voting or doing anything. I mean, if there were a movement to turn this country around, yeah, I'd probably join it. But, like, me, start something? But maybe someone will. I'm just like, enough with the violence. I mean, this war was under the guise of 'we're going to get the terrourists', but the terrourists were an Afghani rebel group who did NOT represent Afghanistan, and the war is in IRAQ. I mean, like okay, I failed geography, too, mate, but I'm not THAT dumb. Seriously, innocent lives, thousands on both sides, from soldiers to babies are being crushed, and for what? Bloody gas, that's what. Bush is an ARSE who rode his daddy's coattails and borrowed his brother's (?) power. He doesn't deserve to be...anything. I speak better English than him XP.
agoodcupoftea listen friend, the Democrats control the Congress which controls how our tax dollars are spent. If the Democrats wanted to end this horrible war they could simply stop funding it. They don't because both mainstream political parties represent the Military Industrial Complex and Big Oil. If the US can control this oil-rich region they stand to make a lot of money. Conclusion: the Democrats are equally to blame for the war and the sorry state of affairs.
A whole lot of frustration expressed here. Expression is about all any of you will get to release your frustration. Rebellion, that's a laugh. Even if we had a leader, which we don't and even if we had an organization, which we don't and even if there were 1000 times as many as write here it would be hopeless, peaceful or forceful.
Democracy is dead now -- only a fascade remains. Even capitalizm is dead. We are living in a modern day Feudalism, where the rich allow us to rant and rave. The Methane Bubble is near.
Once again, Uncle Howard rises above it all to see the big picture while so many of us just squabble. Thanks. I disagree with nothing he says, and have nothing to add. He says more in a quick interview than most people say in an entire book.
We're not going to elect our problems away, at least not this time. So it's up to us. Talk to your neighbors, your friends, your co-workers, your family. Let them know what's really going on. Chances are they are of the rank and file also, and thusly are the ones who truly have a stake in positive social change and have no legitimate reason to oppose it.
It is (or was) the job of the Democrats to oppose in no uncertain terms the coming of tyranny to this country - even if it costs them every seat in every governmental body in every state of the union and Repimplicans controlled everything. Instead, the Democrats equivocate, rationalize, lie and then head down to the bank to count their money. There is no meaningful opposition to the gradual coming of tyranny. The MSM is lower than any prostitute selling herself in Corkscrew Alley. Most of our fellow Americans are like the pod people in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers". You can watch a great Frank Capra movie like "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" and jump out of your seat with tears in your eyes and cheer when Jimmy Stewart defeats the villains. But when you get up the next day, shit will still smell like shit and the blank, stupid, smirking kisser of George Wanker Bush will still be lying his ass off to some donkey who calls himself/herself a journalist for station KRAP.
javier September 9th, 2008 11:24 pm
"There was no TV when the people were lining up to go to war with Spain. Boy they were keen. They didn't need TV to go at each other during the civil war. And those 2 glorious world wars can be blamed on TV either. The indians didn't die because of the main stream media and the US wasn't the last country to give up slavery because of the press. When the movies showing the indians getting killed appeared nobody forced the parentsd to send their children to them. And blacks didn't get srung up because they had a bad agent.....................lizard"
Back then, the (s)word was the bible. Today the (s)word is t.v. / MSM
Propaganda always has a tool.
The media and other sources of information (newspapers and books) were controlled by those who profit from wars. The Rothschild bankers and their agents like JP Morgan.
BTW, I have seen a number of references to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion here. This was a document which was published for one purpose, to promote anti-semitism. It was translated to English and published in London/NY in 1920 (first came out in Russian to fuel anti-semitism and get the jewish population onboard with the Communists prior to WW I). Plans for WW II and the holocaust were in the works then since the League of Nations was obviously going to be a failure and WW I did not go as planned (the Bolsheviks were not supposed to make peace with Germany, so they ended up with too little land).
Albert Pike predicted 3 wars would be needed to accomplish One World Government, and the 2nd one would result in a holocaust of Jews and that would be the excuse they needed to for a pro-European state in Palestine to destabilize the region which was known to have great quantities of oil. The letter he wrote in the 1880's was found in the 1920's, and not after WW II.
The British and French elite had already agreed to withdraw from the Middle East and give up their occupation and other colonies to set the stage for the Cold War and the expansion of Communism, thats why Israel was needed, to fill the vacuum as they left. WW II was a tremendous victory for Communism, and Israel.
But the thing about the Protocols is how true they read. Not about a Jewish conspiracy, that is a red herring to fuel anti-semitism after WW II it was useful to discredit it as anti-semitic propaganda. But if you read it and think Luciferian elite (not jew, although they pretend to be Christian, Jew and Muslim to help control these religions) and beast - normal man (not goyim, and all religions including jew) then it makes what's happening today a lot clearer. It's a document worth reading in this context.
The elite fuel anti-semitism and racism as a way to prevent discussion of certain issues that would expose their sinister deeds as well as promote divisions in nations which are becoming increasingly mixed racially.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion were a Czarist forgery to whip up hatred against the Jews. Looks like you drank the koolaid,
see for example:
http://www.skepdic.com/protocols.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion.aspx
http://www.publiceye.org/tooclose/protocol.html
If we are going to be organized against our true enemies concentrated state power that goes hand in hand with concentrated corporate power our first task is to eliminate superstitious hoaxes from our discourse so we can make an accurate analysis of the extent of the economic and political power of the Haliburtons, Bechtels, Microsofts, GMs, and WTO/U.S. empire on the world. More Chomsky less bull shit please.
I enjoy your comments which I read carefully. A revolution is about being against something. And like Party Politics, Free Masonry, Zionism or Anti-Semitism, many things are held up to be for or against. Are they not just all forms of tribalism, used by the elite?
So somebody wears an apron cuts a trouser leg and bears his left breast… and another believes God gave him an exclusive home lands between the Nile and the Euphrates. Another bunch believes in the second coming of a Messiah and the End Times….. All hocus-pocus to take the power away from people and to control them by an elite…
Is this not just a lot of auto-suggestion and self fulfilling prophesy and sophistry to keep the same elite where they are, and the masses in bondage, to keep them from living in the present and to maintain their existence framed in terms defined by such an elite.
A little further down in this fascinating comments page Revenge Girl writes: ..There was a time when Greek and Latin were required classes in public school. High School graduates were expected to know Civics and United States (and world) History, as well as classical literature. ……The emphasis in education toward "useful skills for the job market" instead of learning how to think and base thoughts on historical context is frightening.
So the conclusion one reaches is society dumbs down because it is lead by insatiable material wants/needs, which are manipulated by and ever present “elite” by the artificial limitation of resources and manipulation of competition.
Therefore the only revolution needed anywhere and everywhere is the self-controlled mineralization of personal material demand as individuals, the acceptance of death in the case that the minimum is unobtainable or eventually anyway, and the maximization of knowledge, and awareness in the meantime. Personally I would add to that, the obvious, that our greatest joy anyway derives not from consumption but from taking away the suffering of others.
What other revolution is needed?
However the tool is often benign, it's the intent of the people and their state of spiritual awareness, and potential for self determination, that is the real cause of the times.
Wow! These are some of the best discussions i've read in a long time on CD. Where the solutions to these problems will lie it's hard to tell, but if more and more americans start to publicly debate the ideas i've been reading (esp welshTerrier2, rtdrury, and malcolm martin's posts; nice!) this place might actually start to change for the better.
I agree.
To keep this rebellion within each of us. We should arise from our sleep, drugs and speed ( we are traveling much too fast now ) . Know what our zodiac sign is. Then use our zodiac personality , which runs deep within us, to target our rebellion.
Here is mine, Pieces.. Are compasionate enforcers and like to make rules fair.
Examining where our tax money is being used in my local community and over all community. It seems like our government is thinking, feeling and doing as if it is a business.
Government is not a business.
Goverment is created to serve the community. Community of species. It must respect all species , not just the human species. It should have compassion and dogged belief that it serves all communities in its jurisdiction.
Here is most important question for any government employee to get right or be fired. What is a definition of community? If it does not include the words, all species. They lack the quality to be a government employee. They should get a job with a business instead. And we will help them get a job with the business in their community. By the way , I mean all government employees, including the Generals.
So to All zodiac signitories. Do what is in you.
toophat for you!
Yes lets get lost in superstition rather than doing concrete practical things like planting gardens, shopping at co-ops, building local Green parties, reducing our carbon foot print, speaking out whenever we see injustice or oppression, getting as off the grid as we can, etc, Medieval European superstition will surely help? Sigh and we wonder why we are losing? If you think Dick Cheney allows himself to be distracted by such fluffy fare you are kidding yourself, he wakes up at 6 am everyday brutally focused on his goal of world domination for his tight circle of globalist corporate exploiters. If we aren't just as focused in providing positive REAL alternatives AND in fighting back we will lose, period end of story. And what's more we will deserve to lose because we weren't serious about fighting for the downtrodden including ourselves and our families. Time to put away your astrology books and get serious boys and girls. Perhaps another harder even more "inconvenient truth."
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Obama needs to do one thing:
He needs to watch The Lion King, by himself.
Over and over - until it gets into his soul.
He must get in touch with the simple but
extremely powerful narratives it conveys.
Righteous Anger.
Reclaimed Moral Authority.
The collective spirit of his wounded land.
Then he must stand on that rock, and…
ROAR.
The Young Simba needs to claim the “audacity”
of King Mufasa’s fearlessness and valor.
Barack - Remember who you are!
THEN the Sheeple’s of America will say:
Banzai: Oh, Scar, it's just you.
Shenzi: We were afraid it was somebody important.
Banzai: Yeah, you know, like Mufasa.
Scar: I see.
Banzai: Now that's power.
Shenzi: Tell me about it. I just hear that name and I shudder.
Banzai: Mufasa!
Shenzi: Ooooh! Do it again!
Banzai: Mufasa!
Shenzi: Ooooh!
Banzai: Mufasa, Mufasa, Mufasa!
Shenzi: Ooooh!
[breaks into laughter]
Shenzi: And it tingles me!
It is really as simple as a kid’s movie…
Rafiki: It is time.
.
Hahahahahahahahaha... That's SO naive, Obama is talking on a cell phone RIGHT NOW as we type to his major donors who are Wall St. bundlers who bring in untold millions of dollars. It will continue to be a corporate ruled duopoly until people simply pack up and walk away from empire and say no more. In the long run plating a radish in your back yard is FAR more important IMO than voting for either of the corporate sock puppets or a third party that ill fail for quite a ways into the future. The raddish will feed you and your family and hopefully inspire your friends and neighbors to stop buying at the corporate grocery store for example Whole Foods or Krogers BOTH Union busting exploiters. When the stores fall then you will see real "change."
Don't forget we will need to play his trustworthy side kicks. I'll be Timon,
Kieth you be Pumba.
Rally cry, Hakuna Matata!
BTW for all you uptight posters who have been haranguing me for my worry free philosophy as a way to get out of the morass of depression, fear and anger that
seems on the rise here-you should watch the movie again too. It is time. Palin and simple.
.
Thanks Leea,
It may seem a bit crazy to some sophisticated thinkers and intellectuals to mention an animated kid’s movie, but this story presents very powerful metaphors and imagery that average persons relate too.
And it brings into focus Obama’s Achilles' heel; his falling back into his comfort zone of intellectualism – where he mistakenly believes if he just cooly, pleasantly, and professionally presents all the logic and rationale of his positions, most persons will see the stark difference between himself and Bush/McSame – and it does work with us - but for the voters he needs to attract and assure, it doesn’t.
Here is why; in the real world where most people live, if your loved ones or property is threatened or worse, your daughter is raped, you don’t respond cooly, pleasantly, and professionally – you react with RAGE – and rightly so!!!
Obama is far from perfect based on my worldview, but I am supporting him.
That said I strongly believe if the Dems are going to win Barack needs to transcend from the mindset of Young Simba into the ROARING Lion King who reclaims this raped land of ours…
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Absolutely Keith and you know what they say, don't get mad, get even.
Even is a nice word to focus on here. Right now Obama is going on and on about how the McCain campaign is lying. OMG< OMG< they are lying, waaaaaah. The people are probably shrinking in dismay to this politics as usual tantrum. Instead he could do some speaking truth to power. Not by telling McCains lies, but by telling Obama's truths.
He has fallen off his horse, and all the kings people and all the kings men, won't put him back together again.
Truth will balance these scales, and I guess together we must be the ones to tell the truth to him.
Sigh.
I wish HZ was correct, but the fact is Australia is adopting virtually all of U$A's failed policies by both the Liberal and Labor parties and it's trashing our living standards.
Many of us view U$A as a parasite nation which has been living way beyond its means since the 1950s.
{NB: The Liberal Party misrepresent the term liberal. They're right-wingers. The Labor Party routinely take for granted and sell out the working class for corporate bastards}
That's why I'm a member of the Greens Party. We currently attract 10%+ of primary votes, and electoral support increases with each succeeding election. We are now in over 100 countries through out the world and in 2001 formulated a global charter.
If you want change, you've got to make it happen. So vote Green or independent.
PS. My apologies on behalf of Ozzies for inflicting Rupert Murdoch on you. But please don't send him back. You deserve him more than we do.
I agree with alot of what you say. The Austrailian people dont deserve John Howard ( who served for almost 10 yrs.) anymore thn the Am. People deserved Dubya! I am a Socialist, but I dont get a whole lot of say in what happens here. Truly, the entire "Western civilization" seems to be on the decline. Not al of the EU--but, the UK, certainly. Austrailians are British subjects--which, dont get me wrong, many times I wish to hell we were! US is the worst, as far as pilliging the planet. But we are certainly not alone. The EU "protects " itself ( I wish we did!) and spends alot more money om social welfare programs, and less on defense. We spend a RIDICULOUS amount on military--esp. BOMBS! 10x more than the rest of the world combined! (Correct me if you know better)It has NOT "kept us safe". Even if it did, I would rather go down fighting than with Dubyas's head up my ass! --
That being said, I love the people of Austrailia, UK, EU, New Zealand--been to some of them (Not Austrailia), but their govt joins in many of our military exploits. There were NOT enough protesters in the uS before Iraq (anybody want to take back that beer can they threw at me now?), but I'm not sure that the western powers that joined Dubya are in as good a position to judge, as many others. NO offense intended. If we had an international peoples' labor party--then we would be getting somewhere as a planet and a species!Please come back to blog--US needs to hear more international voices!
General strike: one effective way out of corporate control and narrative--but when, how? A major depression/collapse first, perhaps? Entropy, disintegration are just as likely as a political revolution. Fascism is on the rise in the US. But the call for 'rebellion' still seems valid as an expression of hope. This discussion is not penetrating any significant part of the national discourse at this time. Jack London's _Iron Heel_ is a vision of how an oligarchy might be challenged, yet it was an old notion prior to the rise of corporate media as a dominant force affecting human consciousness, limiting the spectrum of debate. The margins of radical discourse may be growing, hard to measure, and perhaps too late to be proactive. In any case, Zinn should be encouraged to elaborate on this article.
If the number of people get out a vote I feel DIEBOLD couldn't handle the numbers and you may get real results. That is the cornerstone of Democracy none tampered with results.
Given an ill-informed electorate, voting is not the cornerstone of democracy, but rather, its tombstone.
Good one Welshie.
Who's gonna raise the dead?
Just kick back and let the USA finish its meltdown. Nobody listens to its ideas any more. Instead everyone is blazing a different path. For example, nobody follows the US healthcare model, but instead everyone is doing single payer after the successful models elsewhere.
Nobody is following the US model of freeways and cars/trucks. - Everyone is expanding their rail transport, following the models of other countries, getting off fossil fuels, and addressing global warming responsibly.
Nobody is following the US model of opening their borders to imports. Instead, everyone is keeping up the tariffs to protect their own industries, the highly successful model pioneered outside the USA.
Nobody is following the US model of petro-synthetic food production. Everyone is instead following the old traditions producing healthier organic food.
Nobody is following the US model of militarist foreign policy. Instead everyone is keeping their military expenditures very modest and are banning land mines and all those things.
Nobody is following the USA in allowing ridiculous unregulated financial market speculation. Instead everyone else is keeping the same strong regulations that allowed their economies to grow surpluses while the US economy plunges into debt.
Nobody is following the US model of war on drugs. Instead others are legalizing the various mild drugs such as cannibis and coca.
Nobody is following the US model of privatizing government services. Instead, others are keeping all traditional government services in the public sphere at one half the cost or less.
Nobody follows the USA in chucking the rule of law, chucking the rule of international law, and chucking international treaties. Instead everyone is strengthing the rule of laws and treaties in an alternate community of nations that excludes the USA.
Nobody is paying any attention to US ivy league business schools. Everybody knows their prescriptions would lead to millions of citizens rioting in the streets in other countries.
auntEm
Good list, rtdrury! It is worth remembering.
Hmmm his sounds like what HZ was promoting......does this explain McCains new hat,
the irrelevancy of the gov't is forcing it to try to become relevant?
rtdrury,
This is a really great summary of some dynamics at work today. It would be great to build on this.
South America is encouraging.
Unfortunately several major countries in Europe have been electing more conservative governments. The commonality driving the electorate to vote against their own interests is probably racist fear that immigration is diluting their national character and draining their social programs.
Once elected, the conservatives there (who are confusingly called liberals for their free market ideas) align with Bush / Cheney on foreign policy and domestically try over and over to eat into gains won by the unions and progressives. Conservatives bite away bit by bit like a school of bluefish on the leg. First they might try to cut the school week, then to increase the work week etc.
Luckily there is still some organized opposition - people who are not numbed or dumbed, who feel the attack and are willing to react when threatened.
Joe
We had a coup on people's govt in sixty three and then stolen elections after that.
Right wing corp press and bs polls.
A govt torturing people; that's their msg to us.
"According to all myth, the female - not the male -- gives life"
"According to all myth, the female - not the male -- gives life"
Hurray for sexist identity politics lets divide up along gender lines and call each other names so the regressive empire can finish us off even easier, good plan!
...but then along came christ, God's(as man's image) son, who gave rebirth. Everlasting real and redeeming 'life' to his followers.
The woman has taken back seat ever since. But she makes a good back seat driver, just ask Joe Biden. Heh.
Don't worry, some of us don't believe in Christ, and think women are completely equal :-)
You can either concede to the elite ruling class whose concern isn't the pubic good, and take no action. Voting democratic is taking no action.
Or you can vote third party as a start. Then start working with them on a local level. The Green Party certainly could use additional voices. They are open to points of view that support peace and justice. Are they perfect? Hell no, but significantly better than either corporate party.
And to those people who complain that the Green Party or Nader only come out every four years (which, by the way, isn't true), I ask them: What have the progressive members of the democratic party been able to accomplish in 8 years. EIGHT YEARS. The best they can come up with is Obama or worse yet, Hillary? Never mind Biden for VP.
It's simple, you want a different outcome, you have to change the input.
One thing is sure, as eloquently declared by Frederick Douglass- Change will not happen just by hoping for it.
“If there is no struggle, there is no progress,” declared Frederick Douglass in 1857, in response to those who suggested that the great abolitionist was pushing too hard for an end to human bondage. “Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will.”
Or you can concede to the elite ruling class and take action. Don't you all realize this group of people are the real life wizards of Oz? Very malleable and helpful if you pull back the curtain. As I've found through real life experience. Of course pulling that curtain back does take quite a struggle, but then again not pulling it back brings the same struggle in different dynamics.
auntEm
The Frederick Douglas quote is important. A real reminder. Change will not be easy and will take work, hard work, and taking time to understand. Thank you!
No savior is going to appear on the horizon that will solve the problem either. It takes time and a lot of real effort.
And we need to find our allies. That means opening our minds to possibilities we had not thought of or had dismissed before.
But then again if a Savior does appear on the horizon, the thing that sucks is he/she will just offer us a hand off our asses and then give us a kick in the ass.
Any real savior does not do the work for an enslaved mass, because that is just another form of slavery. Waaaaait.....isn't that what McCain is telling us? He will do the work for us for real this time because those who neglected that power can be shook up and shaped up? He's not going to crack under the pressure exerted by special interest groups trying to make him a prisoner of Washingtons corrupted regime this time.
Obama is saying something like, it's about you, we have to do this together.
Where is T&P when you need it!
Good points!
We are the change. The new culture is being developed as we debate and make a thousand little personal changes. The new vision captures our minds and hearts before it manifests. The intersection of our ideas reforms our past beliefs and projects them into a fluid dynamic from which the new culture, or multiple cultures are born. Our decentralized understandings and lifeways render centralized economics and governance weak and ever more quaint. Chaos is an opportunity to form new and more effective strategies. Human talent is still our most precious resource. The effective management of high speed change through the application of new strategies makes order out of chaos. Applying one's talent to the new fluid culture with sustainably reasoned choices will in time supplant the old culture. Peaceful revolution results.
Nice. :)
Howard Zinn ROCKS! His analysis is spot-on!
Zinn: "They don't understand the basic undemocratic nature of the American political system in which all power is concentrated within two parties which are not very far from one another and people cannot easily tell the difference."
-Thank you. It is true Democrats and Republican work like a hand in a glove. If the Democrats were really opposed to Bush and the Republicans they would have impeached him and stopped the war.
Zinn: "There always has been an opposition, but the opposition has always been either crushed or quieted, kept in the shadows, marginalised so their voices are not heard."
-I'm used to the crushing. Here on CD I've been called a Republican troll, a Rove ass, a leftoid, a radical leftist and a naive fool to mention a few for opposing the sold out Democrats that aren't worth a bucket of warm spit.
Zinn: "They do not hear the voices of the people all over this country who do not like the American leaders who want different policies."
-funny how Obama's supporters talk of "change" when we that are voting for 3rd parties are the ones that actually advocate change. Obama is a very conventional status quo politician with a running mate that has endorsed the Republican wars of aggression against both Iraq and Afghanistan.
Zinn: "I think also, people in the rest of the world should know that what they see in Iraq now is really a continuation of a long, long term of American imperial expansion in the world."
-if we are an empire then Obama/McCain are running for emperor. That's why they sound so bellicose and saber rattling.
List the ways voting for a third party in a swing state will help build democracy in the 2008 election, at the top of the ticket. Voting every four years for third party Pres. candidate won't change anything. Please explain how it ever did or could? Isn't there something missing?
A vote for Obama is a vote for the party that has allowed the Republicans to take a crap on our Constitution and wipe their butts with it. If the Democrats can't win against John McBush III without the tiny number of "leftist" votes we represent, then they deserve to lose.
Voting for a Democrat to me is like voting for a Republican. How does that help? Voting for a 3rd party is an attempt to build them up to the point they can reach 5% which qualifies them for federal matching funds. When enough "progressives" start voting for 3rd parties instead of sell outs that will help.
I will not vote for a Democrat because I don't believe in them and I could care less if McCain wins because when it comes to war and militarism I just don't see much of a difference.
Dems don't own my vote. Votes need to be earned. Because Obama voted for the FISA capitulation, hasn't mentioned impeachment or upholding the Constitution and voted for war funding he forfeited my vote. That is why I will vote for Cynthia McKinney of the Green Party.
Zinn would flinch at being called a Marxist, which is reflected in his hopes for "decent people" to launch a rebellion in the US. His uprising will certainly come though around the objective conditions he describes. But it will be lead by class conscious women and men, or Marxists, and they will not fight for whatever is left of our bourgeois democracy but to take power for the only element that deserves to wield it in these perilous times--the working class.
No effective anti-imperialist movement has ever developed inside any empire. There is a mythology among the petty bourgeois, the political circle that Zinn speaks from, that the US domestic anti-war movement had something to do with ending the Vietnam War. The fact is when the US helicopter was pulling those last wretched souls off the embassy roof in 1975 in what was then called Saigon, it marked the military defeat of the US by the Vietnamese people and their armed forces after a protracted guerrilla war. The Vietnamese people were led through this horrendous confrontation with Japanese, French and then US imperialism by Ho Chi Minh and other committed Marxist-Leninists (who understood they were in a class war) and Vietnamese nationalists. The capitalist labor camp that Vietnam has become since then does not change the history.
The Iraqi and Afghan people will end the US occupations of both countries. The US empire and its capitalist economic superstructure will continue to weaken and finally crash. That will create the objective conditions for the revolutionary America where you will be able to get at war criminals like Bush, Cheney, and Pelosi.
Zinn is a learned man and a humanist but the sad truth is that the petty bourgeois cannot defeat the capitalist ruling class! They rail against the outrages and inhumanity of the U.S. government and the Bush Administration. They point out the duplicity, the corruption, the hypocrisy, the inhumanity, and the utter criminality loosed in the world today but to no useful end since capitalism will not be reformed nor shamed to death. Pointing out the defects of capitalism has become as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. The ruling class brushes its liberal democratic critics off like gnats as long as they stay away from the third rail. But let one of these voices dare mention unity based on working class-consciousness and a mobilization to strike at profits and great danger would shortly thereafter visit.
No matter the danger, it must begin to be spoken by a warrior vanguard: socialism is the only way humankind will live into the distant future on this planet. Only a working class with a consciousness of itself and united across all racial, national and cultural boundaries is capable of seizing power. Only a working class in power will see to the end of this madness and willingly share our available resources for the sake of human survival.
Traditional marxism with it's rigid jargon and division is in IMO a god that failed in the same way that laissez affaire capitalism is ALSO a god that failed. In the 21st century we need participatory democracy, co-ops, farmers markets, crafts people, labor unions in large organizations that provide infrastructure, credit unions, community wi-fi, Linux, active resistance against the police state at home and empire abroad, community gardens, local bike shops, wind mills and solar on houses, serious planning that takes ecology into account, complete rebuilds of our unjust inner cities, etc. It's the 21st century and we need to be thinking system theory, humanism, ecology, and empowering traditionally oppressed people not the old tired stale rhetoric of the 19th century. We also IMO at least need to talk to paleo-cons and Libertarians and bond over points of similarity about local control and agriculture and resisting erosions of civil liberites while confronting them on their regressive tendencies. I'd still say though they are better friends than the average tired warmonger global trade supporting corporate sock puppet Democrat.
Hint Malcom, we tried the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and it was a dismal failure and turned into a just plain dictatorship as hierarchical structures ALWAYS do. OTH the democratic socialism in Sweden works pretty well so it's not socialism that's the problem but ossified and rigid control structures. The way we will win against empire is being more creative and intelligent IMO. When people try organic food fresh from the garden they generally don't go back to GMOd crap. Lets show people that sustainable Green humanism with a global communications infrastructure co-ops and less hierarchy is a more joyful vibrant way to live. Or we can refight the same old stale wars of Europe in the 19th century using a lot of outdated Marxist jargon, your choice people.
hie, hootowl
"Zinn would flinch at being called a Marxist, which is reflected in his hopes for "decent people" to launch a rebellion in the US."
Zinn isn't a Marxist but an anarchist, and doesn't flinch from calling himself one:
"I am an anarchist, and according to anarchist principles nation states become obstacles to a true humanistic globalization."
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo/message/11309
Dan Clore
My collected fiction: _The Unspeakable and Others_
http://tinyurl.com/2gcoqt
Lord Weÿrdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
I have long defined myself as an anarchist, but in the sense of not adhering or blindly submitting to contrived institutions, inequitable legislation and misdirected social policies that impose an unnatural order or are predicated on an obsessive preoccupation with the worst of human nature.
To be constructive as an anarchist requires being quite perceptive, well-informed, and inclined to resonate with the Laws of Nature. In that sense, I believe there exists a natural structure that, to find, first requires the humbling of human ego and would-be man-king aspirations. That includes the ability to sense and identify with the calm and order in chaos, which is simply too esoteric for most to grasp. As a matter of daily course, very few folks relate. It is best said, "Wise men, though all laws were abolished, would live the same lives."
The rule of law can only prove equitable and sustainable when the spirit and intent of the law is grasped and valued more greatly than the letter of it.
SORRY BUT ONLY THE REVOLUTIONARY CLASS, THAT IS, ALL PEOPLE WITH A CONSCIENTIOUSNESS of revolution will make history. Workers are least likely to be such revolutionaries, especially so in the USA. But the old slogans are great.
WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!!!
We desperately need a revolution.
Excellent post malcolm martin!
Socialism is too loosely defined. Where "socialism" has existed alongside financial economics finance has dominated and corrupted the "socialism" toward fascism time and again.
What is really necessary?
Direct democracy and calorie economics.
No more transaction in money. Money allows the REAL value of work and product to be skewed and twisted. Transaction in calories eliminates the potential for monetary abuse. A product requires X human spent calories to produce, the product is thus worth exactly X calories to acquire. To acquire that product you must work worth X calories. There is no more fair system to implement. When by direct democracy calorie economics is instituted, it will be the end of corruption for all time. Crime will plummet as people are easily able to acquire their wants and needs for easy and reasonable effort. Most people's work will not be going into the bank accounts of the financial elite, which is a condition that exists today.
rocyahsoul@yahoo.com
www.lamegame.name
Daniel Vincent Kelley
A starting point perhaps - but there is not a direct relationship in the amount of energy that is used with the value of what is then produced. Aside from the factor of 10 or more inherent in the efficiency levels of people and various processes applied to produce a thing, we also have a factor of 10 or more in the usability and practicality of that which has been produced. And some could argue the factors are more like 100 or more
But there is within this idea two important concepts:
1) there is a real intrinsic value that current money practices do not honor very well at all, and
2) economics must ultimately be a zero-sum game.
To understand money and economics as a zero-sum game, one only needs to understand the Laws of Conservation, and particularly the Laws of Motion. Economics seeks to assert itself as a science, but it cannot without honoring the basic laws that apply.
As an object in motion, money acts as a force that for every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Understanding this simple law explains the lows and highs of economy, and why the stability of a social system always always and always depends on a significantly large and equitable middle class. The more disproportionately income and wealth are distributed the more ineffective and unstable a society becomes. AND that is not about being a liberal, a socialist or believing in any political paradigm at all - that is about simply understanding and respecting the natural laws.
Ah nature. Mans oldest enemy.
Of which he is not without, and cannot exist without.
But it is true - essentially for the white man and most modern cultures, not all.
The irony - making nature into an enemy is like cutting off your nose to spite your face - or more graphically, it is liking shitting in your food store, and where you eat.
thus all the E-coli outbreaks
Huh?
Joe
Nice idea in theory. What are you going to do about the paraplegic people, persons who cannot direct their own activity or those of others such as the senile or babies? Try again. Special education teacher.
May I suggest giving everyone a good education. Give all persons with disabilities all the equipment each needs (and start designing better, cheaper wheelchairs...if the US can put vehicles on Mars, certainly we can all have a decent battery powered wheelchair), as well as education, ....health care for all...........attendant care at home (which is cheaper than nursing home incarceration). Respect for all humans is a nice start.
Howard Zinn is a historian. He has written about Helen Keller being a Socialist and being on picket lines with striking workers.
I think you missed the point of the poster's recommendation. He was talking of direct human calorie expenditure to determine values for labor, productivity and services. If one is not capable of expending much in calories, how will one be supported? I totally agree with supporting all in appropriate education as well as single payer universal coverage health care and respect for all. In fact, that is why I found it necessary to comment on an economic system based on direct human calorie expenditure. In the wrong hands not thought out properly, it smacks too much of "Arbeit mach frei"
Workers here are more right wing than not.
There are just enough people enamoured with the current situation (i.e. being paid enough to stay quiet and enjoy the bread and circuses) to keep everything status quo. There just isn't enough of a groundswell to change anything and the deck has been stacked for some time. Voting 3rd party won't do anything either; the situation is too dire for any one man or group to fix.
However, there are ways to piss off even the elite. So we as a group need to think of a way to do that, perhaps taking away something the elite treasure above all. Ok, money, yes, of course, but how? Or what else can be taken away? Let's put our heads together and come up with something that will by default undermine the status quo.
I agree the country could and possibly will split into smaller, more managable regions, perhaps focusing inward more/becoming more self-sufficient vs. being motivated to buy stuff thus pumping our wealth away to countries with their own self-interests at heart (and why not - the U.S. is really no longer the center of the world).
Mr. Zinn said:
"Well, we got to this point because ... I suppose the American people have allowed it to get it to this point because there were enough Americans who were satisfied with their lives, just enough.
Of course, many Americans were not, that is why half of the population doesn't vote, they're alienated.
But there are just enough Americans who have been satisfied, you might say getting some of the "goodies" of the empire, just some of them, just enough people satisfied to support the system, so we got this way because of the ability of the system to maintain itself by satisfying just enough of the population to keep its legitimacy."
First, let me say that I have the greatest respect for Howard Zinn. I'm not sure, however, that his comments about the American people reflect the true nature of the problems we face.
Let's ask these questions:
1. To what degree should we hold the American people responsible for the actions of their government and the powerful, controlling forces inside the US?
2. Are enough Americans being satisfied just enough, as Zinn asserts, to enable the US government to retain its "legitimacy"?
3. Are Americans aware of the international actions of their government or should we reasonably expect them to be?
To my friends on the left, let me say this: whether we criticize the American people for their role in empire, however we define that, we cannot effect the changes we seek without their support. If we choose to find the American people guilty for their role in empire, our mission must, nevertheless emphasize education over confrontation. Few are persuaded while being attacked. We've made that critical error for far too long.
My answer to the above questions is that, if responsible, the American people are guilty of empire only through their negligence and their failure to take seriously their responsibility as national citizens and as global citizens.
I disagree with Zinn's assertion that too many Americans have been bought off by the good life. I don't think Americans are looking the other way; I just don't think they're looking at all. The crime is negligence; not cover-up and avoidance ... at least that's my take. I wouldn't be surprised to receive a sound thrashing on this belief; that's OK - the truth is I'm not sure I'm right.
Too many people I speak to genuinely find it too painful to discuss the horrors our corporate state has imposed on its own citizens and on foreign citizens as well. We are not taught the truth in our public schools. We are not taught the truth by our media. We are not taught the truth by major party candidates. Does Obama speak about empire? Of course not.
I'm afraid that most Americans believe that good and bad can be resolved with the struggle between the two major parties. If something is wrong, just vote in the other guys. The struggle they see isn't between justice and injustice; it's not between empire and autonomy; it's not between freedom and oppression; it's simply the Democrats versus the Republicans.
Again, they aren't averting their eyes from the great truths of our times; they are naively investing in false hopes. Should we hold them responsible for not learning more and for not understanding the times and the issues? Perhaps. Still, we on the left have failed them miserably.
Until the left finds a way to educate and persuade the masses, the changes we seek are not possible. With the inevitable collapse of empire, things will nevertheless change radically. We damned well better have opened a very real and very serious national dialog before that happens. If we fail to do so, the radical changes we will see will not be to our liking. If the masses are not ready to fight for the values we hold when the empire collapses, a much harsher oppression will be the inevitable result.
You know Welshie,
Your questions are excellent.
Just take me, one of those people you are speaking of.
I'm part of that guilty group, that just didn't care enough, I mean I can say that about myself. Heck I may be the only one that exists in this group for all I know.
But what made me change?
I went from believing that Empire was beyond my life, to the horrible realization that it was my life.
Believe me, you would never need to encourage such a person to change their life, because they cannot 'look the other way'
When it becomes personal, change is inevitable.
So what is the dividing line, what currently makes this impersonal to the persons of this nation?
P.S.
It's interesting that the People and the Government are seen as separate entities.
Do you believe in a government of, for and by the people?
Or people of, for and by the government?
In other words which of these two entities do you see as primary and which do you see as secondary?
VERY well put and thought provoking! Thank you!
1. To what degree should we hold the American people responsible for the actions of their government and the powerful, controlling forces inside the US?
Answer: To the degree they are willing to accept the perks of living in this country, but not willing to fight for the freedoms that have allowed those advantages.
2. Are enough Americans being satisfied just enough, as Zinn asserts, to enable the US government to retain its "legitimacy"?
Answer: I believe so or the rebellion would already have critical mass.
3. Are Americans aware of the international actions of their government or should we reasonably expect them to be?
Answer: This is a world of information in which we now live. If you are not aware of your own governments international actions, you are in a state of mesmerization, a result of the well-controlled MSM OR you are in a state of "plausibility deniability". Many Americans have been de-educated since kindergarten....NOT BY CHANCE.
latest gallup poll shows mccain leading -- 117,500 rigged voting machines to
maybe 2 or 3 hundred tops for obamie n company
Leea,
There's plenty of ready evidence that "our" intellect needs work, but I think you'd better present a list of items to buttress your unsupported assertion that "our spirit is just fine." The list had better be at least twenty pages long to even begin to convince. Nah, we live not only in the United States of Amnesia but in the United States of Pusillanimity, and Howard Zinn has that right.
Hmmm, how to explain.
Your piercing analysis, is awesome.
You are of course right.
It seems that what blocks us from a state of natural healthy spiritual connection and action, is not our spirit, but our ego intellect.
Does this mean our spirit must be enhanced to overcome the intellect?
Or should our intellect be enhanced to include the spirit?
....or should our intellect be enhanced to overcome it's own shortcomings, ie, spiritual, creative deficiencies? Or should it be enhanced to include it's untapped development?
"just enough Americans who have been satisfied". If the ruling class can allow JUST ENOUGH Americans to be satisfied the exploitation of the majority can continue. The reason for leftist governments being elected in Latin America is explained by this revealing statement. Maybe this has always been the plan.
The plan? Divide and conquer man, it's old as Rome, goes back to the earliest churches even before Rome. Set the haves, against the have nots. Keep the haves strong enough to break the backs of the have nots. Give the have nots hell in this life, the have nots get theirs in their next...
rocyahsoul@yahoo.com
www.lamegame.name
Daniel Vincent Kelley
Desert Time Out
Will we all be gone before we can figure out what’s going on?
We can count time but it seems we can’t take a time out.
Wouldn’t it be nice to back up from the bang or inflate a moment
so we would have time to contemplate nada
like why the universe is flat or randomly structured
perhaps we could find some lost time.... maybe time before we started counting
like before the big bang when we weren’t even a pre tick
a black singularity just waiting ...pre everything....a pre form void..... like taxes due.......
but then there was the word
‘In the beginning was the word....’
was that a pre mirror word or pre big bang word
In the beginning was the word and..
was that the pre matter law or non verbalized law
In the beginning was the word and the.....
I think in a word so I am is a word
In the beginning was the word and the word....
can there be a word ‘I am’ without being
In the beginning was the word and the word was.....
was that a promise &/or a series of bits
In the beginning was the word and the word was with
was that the logos lured by the principal governing the universe?
‘In the beginning was the word and the word was with God.’
full stop
time for symbols
and symbols mean progress
marks in stone to praise priests ‘who knew accounting’
cuneiform forms in the dessert
voids in stone in the dessert ....einstein,
from the pre form void
ah
bliss... the one no revolution will miss
A dieing empire?!? By what measure?
We are living in an expanding empire.
We are not losing power or influence - we are gaining them.
We are losing or have already lost the hearts and minds of world.
Yes, but this is causing a heavy burden of instability. We are bloated with this power and growth. Such a top heavy and exasperated structure, though mighty in it's time, is the creator of it's own timely demise.
You said it yourself... "We are losing or have already lost the hearts and minds of world."
and since we can't bomb everything into submission... then yes it is a dieing empire.
Can't bomb everything into submission?
By whose standards? Last time I checked, there is enough nuclear weaponry on the planet to evaporate the surface of the planet 15 times over... Now they're building robot attack jets and attaching nuclear power to space laser weapons...
Can't bomb everything into submission... shyeh, right. That's EXACTLY the plan.
rocyahsoul@yahoo.com
www.lamegame.name
Daniel Vincent Kelley
The nation is drowning in bullshit.
Rebellion. Revolution. Insurrection.
Bless your heart, Howard, I wish it were so, but none will likely happen, neither in this country, the world, nor in any of our lifetimes.
The Controllers, you see, the corporations and politicians, control us, but they don’t and can’t control Earth.
The only solution to the problem is extinction, the extinction of the human species. Not by one or some or even many humans. Humans won’t likely commit their own extinction.
But Earth can cause our extinction. Remember, more than 99% of all species to ever live on this planet are now extinct.
Sadly, humans are moving ever closer to the moment when Earth will do what Earth does naturally--cause the extinction of Homo sapiens, the so-called intelligent one!
I hope we learn before it's too late, but...
Ridiculous!
The greatest threat to people on Earth, is people. As extinction nears there are less and less people meaning less and less threat. What is Earth going to throw at a being type that can travel to space or bunker behind hundreds of feet of concrete? Fact is, humanity, once established, is fairly well irrejectable. We're too greatly adaptable and too massively intelligent, to make it at all easy to wipe us out easily. There seems to have been a space impact about 11,000 years ago that wiped out Mammoths, giant sloths and saber tooth tigers from North America. This is supported by a layer of soil on this side of the planet that contains nano diamonds which are a product of intense pressure. Humanity, particularly the Clovis, disappeared from the east coast. Within a few thousand years humanity had again swollen to inhabit most of the continent. That Earth will find a way to eliminate us entirely is highly unlikely. That there is a tiny elitist organization that wishes to see humanity decimated, that they may continue to rule over the chaos is fact, born out by history. Research, Rockefeller, population control, Eugenics. It goes way further back, in fact evidence of these same financially dominant powers having by disease famine and warfare time and again decimated the population is rife for no less than 4000 years of history and artifacts. The oldest sword found is about 4500 years old. Coins accompanied it's discovery.
rocyahsoul@yahoo.com
www.lamegame.name
Daniel Vincent Kelley
People in and of themselves are not the problem. It is our actions that are problematic. It is the actions that will become extinct, because to survive the calamity we are creating through our actions, they will have to.
You can't put out a fire by throwing fire on it.
http://mb-soft.com/public3/global.html#7
The science in this article good, but the assumptions and conclusions may be a way off. All the same, the earth can sure as hell kick us and every other living thing off the planet and we won't have time to react.
The difference between the US empire and all the other empires in the past, is that the other empires absorbed the lands they conquered, but the USA does not absorb them, for fear of giving their new vassals some human rights, so instead just keeps them as vassal states
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats