US/Iraq: Rules of Engagement ‘Thrown out the Window’
SILVER SPRING, Maryland - Garret Reppenhagen received integral training about the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of Engagement during his deployment in Kosovo. But in Iraq, “Much of this was thrown out the window,” he says.
“The men I served with are professionals,” Reppenhagen told the audience at a panel of U.S. veterans speaking of their experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan, “They went to Iraq to defend the U.S. But we found rapidly we were killing Iraqis in horrible ways. But we had to in order to remain safe ourselves. The war is the atrocity.”
The event, which has drawn international media attention, was organised by Iraq Veterans Against the War. It aims to show that their stories of wrongdoing in both countries were not isolated incidents limited to a few “bad apples”, as the Pentagon claims, but were everyday occurrences.
The panel on the “Rules of Engagement” (ROE) during the first full day of the gathering, named “Winter Soldier” to honour a similar gathering 30 years ago of veterans of the Vietnam War, was held in front of a visibly moved audience of several hundred, including veterans from Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam. Winter soldiers, according to U.S. founding father Thomas Paine, are the people who stand up for the soul of their country, even in its darkest hours
Reppenhagen served in Iraq from February 2004-2005 in the city of Baquba, 40 kms northeast of Baghdad. He said his first experience in Iraq was being on a patrol that killed two Iraqi farmers as they worked in their field at night.
“I was told they were out in the fields farming because their pumps only operated with electricity, which meant they had to go out in the dark when there was electricity,” he explained, “I asked the sergeant, if he knew this, why did he fire on the men. He told me because the men were out after curfew. I was never given another ROE during my time in Iraq.”
Another veteran of the occupation of Iraq on the panel was Vincent Emmanuel. He served in the Marines near the northern Iraqi city of Al-Qaim during 2004-2005. Emmanuel explained that “taking potshots at cars that drove by” happened all the time and “these were not isolated incidents”.
Emmanuel continued: “We took fire while trying to blow up a bridge. Many of the attackers were part of the general population. This led to our squad shooting at everything and anything in order to push through the town. I remember myself emptying magazines into the town, never identifying a target.”
As other panelists nodded in agreement, Emmanuel spoke of abusing prisoners who he knew were innocent, adding, “We took it upon ourselves to harass them, and took them to the desert to throw them out of our Humvees, while kicking and punching them when we threw them out.”
Two other soldiers testified about planting weapons or shovels on civilians they had accidentally shot, to justify the killings by implying the dead were fighters or people attempting to plant roadside bombs.
Jason Washburn was a corporal in the marines, and served three tours in Iraq, his last in Haditha from 2005-2006.
“We were encouraged to bring ‘drop weapons’ or shovels, in case we accidentally shot a civilian, we could drop the weapon on the body and pretend they were an insurgent,” he said, “By the third tour, if they were carrying a shovel or bag, we could shoot them. So we carried these tools and weapons in our vehicles, so we could toss them on civilians when we shot them. This was commonly encouraged.”
Washburn explained that his ROE changed “a lot”.
“The higher the threat level, the more viciously we were told to respond. We had towns that were deemed ‘free fire zones’. One time there was a mayor of a town near Haditha that got shot up. We were shown this as an example because there was a nice tight shot group on the windshield, and told that was a good job, that was what Marines were supposed to do. And that was the mayor of the town.”
Jason Wayne Lemue is a Marine who served three tours in Iraq.
“My commander told me, ‘Kill those who need to be killed, and save those who need to be saved’, that was our mission on our first tour,” he said of his first deployment during the invasion nearly five years ago.
Lemue continued, “After that the ROE changed, and carrying a shovel, or standing on a rooftop talking on a cell phone, or being out after curfew [meant the people] were to be killed. I can’t tell you how many people died because of this. By my third tour, we were told to just shoot people, and the officers would take care of us.”
John Michael Turner served two tours in the Marines as a machine gunner in Iraq. Visibly upset, he told the audience, “I was taught as a Marine to eat the apple to the core.” Turner then pulled his military metals off his shirt and threw them on the ground.
“Apr. 18, 2006 was the date of my first confirmed kill,” he said sombrely. “He was innocent, I called him the fat man. He was walking back to his house and I killed him in front of his father and friend. My first shot made him scream and look into my eyes, so I looked at my friend and said, ‘Well, I can’t let that happen’, and shot him again. After my first kill I was congratulated.”
Turner explained one reason why establishment media reporting about the occupation in the U.S. has been largely sanitised. “Anytime we had embedded reporters, our actions changed drastically,” he explained. “We did everything by the books, and were very low key.”
To conclude, an emotional Turner said, “I want to say I’m sorry for the hate and destruction that I and others have inflicted on innocent people. It is not okay, and this is happening, and until people hear what is going on this is going to continue. I am no longer the monster that I once was.”
Copyright © 2008 IPS-Inter Press Service
As with Abu Ghraib, these weren’t just a few soldiers doing these things for grins and giggles; they were ordered by their commanders all the way to the top. Now Congress, you have some names here. Let’s see some hearings on this. More than a million Iraqis didn’t die from shooting each other. Oh, and let’s not forget Blackwater; they also have zero rules of engagement.
Bush has made it clear that the only rule of engagement is victory and control of the oil. This is why he is so dangerous. He looks at his goal and feels justified ordering terrible strategies to get there. He never considers that his terrible strategies are not the only strategies available…or that his goal is an international war crime.
These soldiers are dealing with the atrocities they took part in, what of the thousands of other that will carry that mentality (and/or guilt) back to the US? What goes around comes around; and everything goes around. These personal conflicts are a metaphor for our national conscience. We will have to atone for our misdeeds as a nation in the future or it will tear us apart at the seams. The present administration has pushed us over the precipice and we stood there and let them. Where is the sense of national disgrace? People better wake up, because without atonement we are doomed to the fate of so many of the civilizations before us.
“if they were carrying a shovel or bag, we could shoot them”
I guess you dont want to be a shopper or ditchdigger in Iraq..
Stupid comments. Went to Iraq to defend the U.S. They went because they were losers who could not get a job or because they were psycopaths. If this dumb characters are going to defend my freedom, they can stay home. It is incredible that these morally inferior people could be sent anywhere to do anything. We need to get out of the world so that we do not have these stupid losers killing people.
I suggest we give josephmorton an M-16 and drop him off in Fallujah. See how long it takes him to turn into a “stupid loser” and start killing people. Not long, judging from his completely assinine post–he wouldn’t have far to go.
I served 8 years in the US Army in the 80s–tours in Korea and Berlin. Soldiers are just people. Put them under intense stress, afraid for their lives, and they will bend and break. How many spoiled brat Americans can claim to truly understand what these young people have been through? Until you’ve been there, keep your hatred to yourself.
When our troops get home, the rest of us had better be prepared to comfort them, counsel them, forgive them, listen to them, cry with them. Because what we –yes, you too josephmorton– have allowed Bush and Co. to do to them is unspeakable.
Don’t talk to me about holding terrified twenty-year-olds accountable until Cheney and Bush are in solitary confinement where they belong.
Lemue continued, “… By my third tour, we were told to just shoot people, and the officers would take care of us.”
So, Mr. Lemue, you, what, just SHOT PEOPLE because someone told you to??? And just how many of them were children, Mr. Lemue?
Good god, man! Where is your conscience? How is it possible that anyone just shoots people?
I simply can not get my mind around this soldier / killer mentality. There is nothing in my experience that I can draw upon to understand this complete and total lack of scruples, principles, ethics; the total disregard of another human being - of their joys and fears, of their desire to live - just like the rest of us; of any sense of what it means to be human.
How is it possible that we have created a world where this mentality not only exists but is honored as the mentality that ’stands up for the soul of its country.’ [Thomas Paine]
That’s a soul of a country that is not mine.
In the beginning it was a lot of young people stuggling to feed their families, get a better education, or just get by, so they joined the National Guard - as people have been doing for as long as I can remember. Some joined up as a way to help their country in times of trouble. Going to war in a foreign country had never been a part of their agenda, but when they were ordered to go, by their “commander-in-chief,” they went.
After 9/11, and all the scare tactics propaganda catapulted from Washington via the media constantly, there were those who believed that joining up was what they had to be done to save this nation. That’s what has gone on in every war we’ve had.
And in every war, it’s a bunch of kids going off to do the killing, and being killed. They join up an innocent seventeen or eighteen, and if they’re lucky enough to come back, they’re eighty, or a hundred year olds not even able to remember what innocence was. The majority over there fighting are not “stupid losers killing people.”
@ josephmorten,
What sort of rock did you crawl out from under, sir?
First, one is not a “loser” because one can’t get a job. It has something to do with the economy.
Second, many of the people in Iraq are Nat’l Gaurd — people who joined out of serviece to their country in case of need.
Third, the people in the regular forces joined for reasons only each individual can know.
Finally, in the devolving chaos that is Iraq, even a saint would be hard pressed to avoid psychopathy, but you, sir, I think need not apply for treatment. As they say about the clowns — sir, you have already arrived!
“Good god, man! Where is your conscience? How is it possible that anyone just shoots people?” Wrong tense. He is confessing these things now because he has recovered his conscience. As to what happened to it: the war machine ate it up. Recruits to the armed forces are routinely and ruthlessly brainwashed into killers - a process actually begun in the popular media before they even get into uniform. The number of times I have seen or read fictions in which warrior codes and sympathy for them are the “norms” is shocking. Non violence is routinely dismissed as naive and idealistic while the killer is praised as a hero. That’s the assumption made in almost every Holywood film and tv show. It’s a mindset that has corrupted us (look at Obama rejecting Wright’s entirely christian and moral condemnation of US foreign policy, as if admitting that the US has slaughtered millions would make him unelectable - of course it would) and swept us from the moral highground. A man like this, with the courage to speak out about the true state of affairs, deserves our thanks and support.
You don’t hear much about Iraq on the Corporate Media whose corporate affiliates and fellow corporate fascists are cleaning up on. Bush is fearmongering for a new war to get Repug ratings up.
Meanwhile our military and mercenaries are getting their ultimate adrenaline rush by killing and torturing men, women and child ragheads for Jesus in the best video game with real roadside bombs and RPG’s, pigging out in the green zone, testing weapons and killing technologies for war profiteering corporations, making lots more money than working at Wal Mart, being glorified as heroes for stealing oil and saving Israel from Islamofascists while poor and middle class Americans foot the bill in the trillions.
OLDBADGERTOO
‘That’s the assumption made in almost every hollywood film and tv show’
not to mention the stupid video games…………..
I’m sorry that these soldiers aren’t testifying under oath at an official hearing. Why ain’t that happenin’ do you s’pose???
Aren’t military decorations called “medals,” not “metals”?
The United States spends more than half of its enormous national government budget on military and spying enterprises. That spending is more than the rest of the world combined spends on arms and military forces. The only way that happens is because the citizens of the United States continue to play along with the propaganda that presents this overwhelming devotion to war above all else and above all other countries is an expression of honor, fairness, and good intentions in the world rather than the violent tools of empire that account for the U.S. dominating international trade, finance, and government institutions since World War II–when the Military Industrial (and Government) complex took off.
It’s really no wonder, then, that millions of Americans continue to join the military in search of honor and fortune. Military might and presumed goodness, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, is as American as motherhood, apple pie, and baseball. It is part of the basic national myth that cannot be safely questioned or resisted without touching off intense social conflict and more than one could safely point out fundamental ethical and logical failings of churches that were once at the center of power in European governments before Europeans fled to America to get away from such oppression and injustice.
The point is, the abhorrent experiences and actions of these soldiers are just a small slice of the predictable consequences of a brutal and duplicitous society that most Americans accept and cling to. Just as the atrocities being carried out in Iraq, Afghanistan, and some other areas surrounding about 700 bases the U.S. has erected around the world are not the work of “a few bad apples,” the roots of the illegal wars and occupations in which they serve are not limited to the confines of PNAC, large corporations, or one or both major U.S. political parties. The whole country, save a few dissenters, are in on the basic beliefs and values that feed war and empire as basic pillars of “the American way of life,” that Dick Cheney rightly described as non-negotiable.
The shame and blame belongs with the entire country, not just the few who happen to be dropping bombs or shooting guns on behalf the entire country at any given moment. And so it shall be until the entire country can at least question the wisdom and righteousness of treating military domination as an honorable endeavor instead of something more akin to piracy, extortion, and, yes, terrorism, all of which use similar tools, methods, and rationale, though not on the scale undertaken by the United State of America since World War II.
“They went to Iraq to defend the U.S…”
Defend from whom? The Saudis who pulled down that Corporate Axis Mundi? Murdering people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Colombia, Viet Nam and Korea are all mortal sins against the security of America.
The people in this thread who criticize the soldiers are, for the most part, aiming at the wrong target. I’ve never been in the military, but I’m going to guess it’s a cross-section of (young male) humanity. Some creeps, some heroes who’d risk their lives to save civilians, and everything in-between. But I’ve never been in a combat situation, so I’m not going to judge people who might be decent in normal circumstances, but do things under stress that they would never imagine doing back home.
The fault is in our leaders.
Young male and female humanity, now that I think about it. But I suppose it’s mostly the men who do the most of the shooting.
The fault is in our conservatives (and theirs).
The fault is in the values and beliefs of most Americans who are not outraged at the continued use of half of the federal budget to support a military institution that is as big as the rest of the militaries of the world combined. Those values and beliefs are the fertile soil in which the seeds of jingoism and domination through brute force flourish and grow into the idea that fighting for and with the U.S. empire is, without a doubt, a noble choice. Similarly, the national will to fund the world’s most dangerous and deadly organization in the pursuit of cheap gasoline and tech toys from East Asia for the benefit of a fraction of the 5% of the world’s population who live in the U.S. is the basis for the economic and military manipulation the United States and its people have come to rely over the course of the past century, particularly since World War II.
“Good god, man! Where is your conscience? How is it possible that anyone just shoots people?”
Good god man when were you born?
America is brand conquor and enslave. It is what we do. The young soldier awakens with sadness to the horror he or she is sucked into thinking all the while it is for god and country.
You, readers and writers, are the b_____ds that supply the guns, ammo, flack jackets, rationale, pat on the back and sent him/her there.
You sent him with orders to kill. This is a democracy in name at least and in name at least you are responsible. You are the financial and legal authority that sent him there to shoot farmers in their fields at night.
You sit in your warm houses using the lastest technology to debate the morals of 20 somethings that after all are only doing your bidding.
You might claim that it is the corporations that are creating this holocaust for profit and we are powerless. Which makes you three times the fool.
You paid for it.
Your responsible for it.
You do not gain from it.
You might claim it’s the corrrupt politicians or political parties. The boot of American foriegn policy has never stopped imprinting “I own your ass” across the globe regardless of what party was in power. In fact our military ass is so big just turning around in the world knocks off a few, how did you put it ” stupid losers”.
Don’t you have to go out to eat at the mall and buy some stuff made by children in deplorable conditions or something?
Saddam and Iraqis attacked us on 9-11. They were just about to annihilate us with nuclear and chemical and biological. We had to have payback. The only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi….. I’m sure many soldiers thought these thoughts, especially on their first tour. I do wonder if they thought the same on their 2nd and 3rd tours?
“Don’t talk to me about holding terrified twenty-year-olds accountable until Cheney and Bush are in solitary confinement where they belong.”
I agree completely with that statement about Bush and Cheney belonging in solitary confinement.
Obama’s pastor was telling the truth and Obama should have the freedom to both become president and attend a house of worship where the truth is spoken, especially in a “free country.”
The cynical and completely criminal Republican business class is using American working class kids (soldiers) and adults (contractors) as mercenaries in Iraq and Afghanistan to promote its hidden agenda to continue US world hegemony at all costs. But US hegemony is crumbling anyway as the massive economic mismanagement of recent years makes inevitable a financial meltdown in the near future. The very fact that soldiers have been sent into danger with inadequate protection (body and vehicle armor) reveals the utter cynicism of the American ruling class. They actually thought (and still think) that they could get away with this and that the resulting deaths and severe injuries would be tolerated by the American people.
So they’ve admitted to committing war crimes, how is that a newsflash? Are they going to turn themselves in?
I have to agree with Josephmorton here, because if we make excuses for other ADULTS, than there are no lessons to be learned. They joined the army because they seek danger, and like the uniform, and probably identify with the people in Hollywood films, who go to foreign lands, and use their superior firepower to dispose of whichever enemy is on the current list.
They knew what happens in a war situation, because Desert Storm was only a decade before.
This was an illegal war, fought between two grossly unequal opponents - one giant playground bully and his friends against the dysfunctional wannabe (who used to be one of the bully’s friends). There was only ever going to be one outcome, but unfortunately the bully started to pick on everyone around him, and they started to hit back. Very soon, the bully was revealed for what he really is.
pigs
i’m with joseph…anyone who kills because they are told to, is shit.
Yesterday George W. Bush said he wishes he were young and could go to Afghanistan and help the people there. He called military service in that country ‘romantic’. He said this to soldiers. American soldiers.
I suggest that Bush is a psychopath, so out of touch with reality that it is unbelievable he manages to stay alive whenever he shows up in front of the troops.
I remember hearing Howard Zinn speak about his aerial bombing during WWII, the “good war”. He is an adamant and vocal opponent of war. So we learn by fucking up. What’s new.
My question is this, how many of these fiascos are we going to do as a species before we get it.
David B March — You accurately clarify:
What’s sickening funny is that with hundreds of tons of DU metal being left for the next few billion years to clean up, all over Iraq, Kosovo, & Afghanistan — and with the use of our once proud serviceman as little DU vacuum cleaners (to return part of the scavenged DU to their families, and us civilians).
This hideous disgrace (also a war crime against our own troops, and all of humankind) has been documented in a book entitled:
Namaste
… … … … … Mahatma Gandhi … & … ML King … … Inspiration … … … … …
« We must be the change we wish to see in the world »
« There is a sufficiency in the world for man’s need but not for man’s greed »
« We adopt the means of nonviolence because our end is a community at peace with itself » — MLK
Luckily, April 15th nears, a time when peace loving Americans will anti-up to rearm our military and their civilian minders. The agony of one countries economic collapse is other countries’ golden moment. The leaden brains of the support the troops crowd have poisened rational thought. While Americans are expert at judging
emergent talent on American Idol, they are unprecedented dupes when it comes to judging US foreign policy. Bottom line, at the end of the day, and all the other cliche boardroom crap, if America bankrupts itself, it will save lives.
“Good god, man! Where is your conscience? How is it possible that anyone just shoots people?”
It is simple. The reason that these typical, wholesome, Midwestern white, USAns can do this is that they have been indoctrinated from birth to consider dark-complected people who don’t speak English (and therefore mentally inferior) as something less than bona-fide humans.
It goes something like this:
[humor and satire on]
Israelis - Gods chosen people! (even if they don’t speak English, since it follows that Hebrew is, alongside English, God’s chosen language)
British, Australians, Canadians and NZlanders - smart and civilized people - the Geneva conventions will be strictly followed!
French, German, Dutch, Belgians, Scandinavians, Irish (but only very recently) and Japanese (also recently) - pretty smart and civilized too… The Geneva conventions apply to them in most cases.
Spanish, Italians, Poles, Albanians, Romanians, Slavs (except Serbians), Greeks, Turks - well, maybe. But only if they allow us to build missile bases on their land.
Arabs, Persians, central/south Asians (insert Serbians here too) - THE ENEMY!, except the faithful, Hindu, Gunga-Din types, the Geneva conventions will NOT apply to them!
Latin Americans - If they are rich used to own casinos or half the land in their countries (and can speak fluent English of course) - Yes! Welcome to Miami!
Latin Americans If they are poor, and consequently have indigenous or African features, (and only speak Spanish) - probable Communists! The rules of engagement DO NOT apply to them!
Chinese - yellow hordes!
…and so on and so forth…
[humor and satire off]
Everyone surprised at this “news flash” please raise your hand.
This is what people do. This is war. I’m not going to judge these guys. They’ll have to live with themselves.
I will, however, judge George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, et al.
I won’t condemn the dogs for being let off the leash. I condemn the man holding the leash. Those bastards belong in the Hague, on trial for war crimes.
“Get serious. They’re ants. When the time comes, we’ll crush them.”
Adm. Fallon revealing “our” true feelings about Iranians, whom “serious” people consider ants to be crushed.
Not “if.” WHEN the time comes.
IOW, all non-God blessed Americans are ants to be crushed. There’s your “rules of engagement” delivered by the boss.
CALL BUSH: 202.456.1111
hydrocarbonman March 15th, 2008 1:49 pm wrote:
“When our troops get home, the rest of us had better be prepared to comfort them, counsel them, forgive them, listen to them, cry with them. Because what we –yes, you too josephmorton– have allowed Bush and Co. to do to them is unspeakable.”
Beautifully said. Thank you.
~FRANK 1569~ you have posted that comment about Admirial fallon numerus times this week. ___ You are taking his reply to a question completely out of context.
In reply to a question such as this for Fallon, “Of what would likely happen to the Iranians, if at some time in the future, they developed atomic weapons and used them against another country”.
Fallon replied, they would be crushed like ants. The wording used in that reply does not suggest that Admiral Fallon thinks the Iranians are nothing more than ants and for someone to suggest such is just a feeble attempt, to show that Fallon is not a decent person, or one to be trusted.
What is your purpose for posting that comment over and over? Admiral Fallon has publically blocked Bush from attacking iran and any sensible person realizes it.
For some reason, CD is not posting my articles. I wrote one last week about the truth about what happened in Iraq to my son, Casey.
Although it tears me apart to know he was forced to go into the battle that killed him, I have never been so proud of him. He said “no” he was a conscientious objector.
I met a young CO today at an action in Richmond, Ca and he had the exact same experience as Casey, but he refused to go to Iraq from Germany and he is alive.
Please read: The Casey Sheehan Doctrine here:
www.cindyforcongress.org
Love
Cindy
Cindy,
I hope I am off-base about this. But with all this mania over the democratic candidates, I am getting a sense among “liberals” like those who run this web site, that discussion of over the criminal actions in Iraq, is becoming, well, “unfashionable”.
We are being subtly, or not-so subtly, pressured to get behind one or the other Democratic candidates, avoid independent candidates at all cost, and set Bush’s crimes aside.
~Cindy~ It’s not uncommon for an editor to hold an article for a week or more, timing is often relevant and perhaps they didn’t want your article to be over-shadowed by some other current issues.
I support our soldiers - as humans born into such a fate. I’ve lived through the riots and war zones here in the sixties of the US of A. I didn’t ask for it. People have shot at me. I held a .45 at a man’s head while he had an AK at my gut - for five hellish minutes. And we both survived.
No one can IMAGINE what it is to face or deal out death. No one. It is ironically only something that can be lived … like love…
It is but by some divine grace that any of us can go in peace!
I will always support ANYONE who has had to take up arms to defend…
And pray they at some point can rest in this grace…called peace.
I got a black eye in my yellow ribbon,
an Arab fist I’ll feel forevermore.
Seems I hardly ever even left my crib ‘n’
here’s this coffin coming through the door.
Dear Kem
CD has not posted the last 4 articles I have sent here.
I have no idea why??? I can’t even speculate. Maybe they
weren’t good enough.
All my articles can be read at my website.
www.cindyforcongress.org
Love
Cindy
“First, one is not a “loser” because one can’t get a job. It has something to do with the economy.”
And race, of course. Everything that happens in the USA is about race.
Hi Cindy, Rhoda USAF 75-77, mother, sister, aunt, daughter and caretaker. I am so sorry they have been doing this to you here. Not that has remained a staple for me, so long as I am able to read your posts somewhere.
Casey must have been some young man with some wonderful Mom to have allowed him to stand tall, you know military Cindy what they shove our 17 year old, not 20, faces in during basic and boot. You are able to empathize with the ivaw testimony, I thank you from my heart for that. As Celeste is as well, she always greets me with a hug and good word when I see her in Philly. Blew my cover for you Cindy, only one of me in this city, I love you, I thank You and hope, although I may have been on a conference call or 2 when you spoke, to meet you. After you ARE elected.
I am so grateful this is garnering international attention. We need to shine a light into into all the dark places, here. Sunshine is just the best disinfectant.
Great points: ZHONGMAN, HYDROCARBONMAN, OLD BADGER, TOO and others.
IOWARISH asks how these things become possible, but the whole of US society is fitted to worship the warrior, the unapologetic killer… think of all those merciless Clint Eastwood films. Few here have mentioned the role of the church… that Boykin was quoted as saying, he knew “his god was bigger than their god,” that our Air Force is using Christian proslytizing in a form of holy war, that Bush himself related as a Crusade.
In the Bible belt where I live a little girl at the supermarket told me she was about to be deployed to Iraq. She was positively glowing, truly believed the Rightwing BS about sacrificing her freedom so that we at home would have freedom, etc. All the bull shit!
For the individuals who pointed out what percentage of the US treasury gets wasted on arms and war, very few Americans realize these sums. Have you ever seen these numbers truthfully covered on CNN or any MSM? We forget that many of us in this forum are well-educated and have the time/comfort to pursue internet sites like this one that make us aware of a great many things average citizens are not only clueless about, to make them aware can pose dangers for the messenger. So fully has the indoctrination process set by conservative family mechanisms of socialization, aided and abetted by media lies, added to the sports fixation on teams/winning, with the not so new caveat of religious fealty that REALITY has little to do with the big picture that so many Americans take for what is.
When you put a man into the position of being moral leader of a country, who has literally no morals (Bush)! Who has literally no respect for the law or authority! Who considers himself the law unto himself. Who is arrogant and has no respect for other people or their belief’s. It isn’t surprising that combat in a foreign country is going to deteriorate into a sick killing spree. Bad behavior like Bush has displayed since he has been in office trickles down to rot the barrel of apples that he is leading. In fact, it’s like a cancer that’s growing and devouring our whole country. It’s time most of us took a moral stand against these criminals. So most of the autocracies taking place in Iraq do not surprise me in the slightest.
To all readers like Iowarish who cannot comprehend how these people can do these things, you need to go to:
http://www.zimbardo.com/
This is the website for Dr. Phillip Zimbardo, whose latest book “The Lucifer Effect” tells (with properly structured research to validate his thesis)exactly how and why this happens.
For those of you tempted to proclaim “I would never do such a thing” beware of self-rigthteousness. There isn’t a one of us who is incapable of becoming a monster when subjected to specific pressures and provocations.
That’s why these Winter Soldier Hearings are so important. The point is not to blame Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gates, Wolfowitz, or the military chain of command. It is war itself that is on trial.
It is war that facilitates the cruel and vile metamorphisis that turns human beings into monsters. I leave you with some words of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. first spoken 41 years ago that are as true today as they were when he first uttered them and will be true until war is abolished.
“A true revolution of values will lay hand on the world order and say of war, “This way of settling differences is not just.” This business of burning human beings with napalm, of filling our nation’s homes with orphans and widows, of injecting poisonous drugs of hate into the veins of peoples normally humane, of sending men home from dark and bloody battlefields physically handicapped and psychologically deranged, cannot be reconciled with wisdom, justice, and love. A nation that continues year after year to spend more money on military defense than on programs of social uplift is approaching spiritual death.”
fist,
Last August I saw death, fought it, and came back. A young driver text-messaging on his cell phone ran a red light and t-boned my car. My car rolled four times before coming to a skidding halt. The death I saw was a vast, dark, cold abyss. Six hours later in the ER I came to and the doctors said it was miraculous I survived (because I was wearing a seatbelt). In short, I have been given a second chance at life. Clearly my situation was different from yours. But some of us actually have experienced death even if it was for a short period of time, or we caught a brief glimpse. The truth is if this is what death is like, Shrub, Dick, Condi, Wolfie, and others of the Bush Admin. haven’t the foggiest notion of what is coming.
Cindy,
I have read your stories, and I too wonder why CD hasn’t posted them. I think they are very relevant to other published articles here. Keep writing them.
Best regards,
Dan
The invasion and occupation of Iraq has become one of the greatest tragedies in American history, and what our administration had these young people do and endure is inexcusable.
Even stories like these won’t forge a consensus. The neocon pundits and their followers call us naive and equate these actions with shooting “surrendering” Japanese soldiers during the heat of battle on Iwo Jima or Okinawa when it was known they were concealing grenades. It isn’t the same thing. Its closer to the Mi Lai incident during Vietnam (even that has apologists).
Its the same with torture. We no longer sanctify an individual life. The ends justify ANY means. Making it worse are the cynical ends. Not protecting America, but gambling we can quickly and cheaply set up a puppet government to enure our oil supply.
Washington spared the Hessians at Trenton even though he had almost no resources, and German officers fled to the American lines as WWII was winding down to avoid Russian revenge and torture. Those are the precedents our soldiers should aspire too.
If the ROE are not employed and they aren’t based on all life being sacred, not just American Christians, then we have become the terrorists we think we are fighting.
There doesn’t seem to be much hope for a happy ending on this one. At least Obama, Clinton and McCain aren’t stupid and arrogant enough to have started somehting like this.
josephmorton March 15th, 2008 1:00 pm
Stupid comments. Went to Iraq to defend the U.S. They went because they were losers who could not get a job or because they were psycopaths. If this dumb characters are going to defend my freedom, they can stay home. It is incredible that these morally inferior people could be sent anywhere to do anything. We need to get out of the world so that we do not have these stupid losers killing people.
How could you be so insensitive? Somewhere in my past I heard “do not judge me until you have walked in my shoes”
Bears repeating:
“Siouxrose said:
So fully has the indoctrination process set by conservative family mechanisms of socialization, aided and abetted by media lies, added to the sports fixation on teams/winning, with the not so new caveat of religious fealty that REALITY has little to do with the big picture that so many Americans take for what is.”
Tobee4: I cannot speak for Josephmorton, but suspect that he is very much like me. We are not people who will be lied to by our governments, and then serve them. This is not insensitivity we are talking about, but common sense.
We have known for a couple of decades at least, that joining the armed forces is not about defending freedom, but about making money, securing assets, manipulating other countries, particularly those who cannot defend themselves against our ever increasing cache of disgusting weaponry.
I left school in England 30 years ago, and I remember the psycho “losers” who wanted to go to Northern Ireland to do a bit of “Paddy bashing”, so don’t talk to me about being insensitive.
These were the very people who disrupted lessons, and bullied people. They later went on to a life of crime, and then joined the forces, because that was all they had left.
Dear Dahr Jamail,
Simply, thank you for your reporting. I have been glued to Winter Soldier testimony since Friday. After the broadcasts I take the dogs out, fix some dinner, see friends. I view the neighborhood knowing that we in the U.S. are part of the cartoon above, but non military are in a reality vastly different from those serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. I was an army brat. My dad died a retired army Lt. Col. two days before we staged the Hussein statue photo op. I spoke to my dad for the last time early March 2003 (he then went into a final coma). Of the impending ivasion he said “cooler heads will prevail”. My heart has been talking to my dad this weekend, wondering if this crime of occupation would have killed him if his stroke had not.
Thus the great lie told to the people of the world by the neocons, that war is neat and clean and patriotic and moral. Big business did a number on the American people, but more so on those innocent Iraqis murdered because they have to farm at midnight because of the neocon’s agenda. Genocide Incorporated, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice (and others), pulled the triggers. It is disingenuous to put forth that war can look like anything but what these former soldiers portray. One day there will have to be war crime trials for the U.S. to reclaim its soul.
“Buddhist monks in saffron robes led the mourners in prayer Saturday outside a museum that has been erected to remember the dead. An official memorial program will be held on Sunday.”
This in remembrance of the My Lai massacre whose 40th anniversary is today. I guess there is no lesson to be learned save for the madness of wars and the human mind. Pity.
SHIP OF STATE
When a ship on the high seas is facing peril, a flag is flown upside down as an SOS, a danger signal, asking for assistance or as a warning to other ships
Our metaphorical ship of state, this United States of America, is now facing a great danger. How will we react? A suggestion - send out an SOS, a call for assistance. Go see IN THE VALLEY OF ELAH starring Tommy Lee Jones hopefully it is available in your neighborhood at a movie house or available on a wide screen DVD. Jones is noted for his passionate portrayal of causes he believes.
.
My daughter and I watched this video last night and finished with tears, both reacting with a “what might have been” and “if only … “
Cindy Sheehan writes:
‘ For some reason, CD is not posting my articles. I wrote one last week about the truth about what happened in Iraq to my son, Casey.
Although it tears me apart to know he was forced to go into the battle that killed him, I have never been so proud of him. He said “no” he was a conscientious objector.’
I know I am boring about this, but sorry as I am for Ms Sheehan’s grief and that of her family, this flies i the face of what she has written. She wrote (the exact quote is not in front of me, but I have it and this is almost exact :
Casey did not falter when his Commander in Chief called him, even though we both knew it was illegal (referring to the illegal invasion.)
Now he was a conscientous objector? Why now? Why has this not been said all along by Ms Sheehan? Clarity and consistency is needed by those running for Office. We have had far too little of it for the past years.
As for defence of soldiers committig the idefensible - and not always being well educated. Ignorance was no excuse at uremberg. Further that was where a war of aggression was desigated ‘the supreme international crime’.
I think you need to read the article I wrote, then you will understand.
Please go to
www.cindyforcongress.org to discover what really happened to Casey.
it is not our fault that the Army and it’s representatives lied to us all
along.
I am always as honest as I can be with the information I have. I can guarantee you that. I am always consistent with the “facts” we have been given. I have always been consistent with my message.
Love
Cindy
PS, I have never written that :”Casey did not falter” when his Commander in Chief called him…I have always said that he said: I don’t want to go, Mom, but I have to.”
Maybe you should have the “exact” quotes in front of you before you write something that is not even anywhere near anything that I have ever said.
Thank you
Cindy
Well ~Cindy~, editors are a different breed of cat. They are almost always quite intelligent, usually well educated, well read and often more liberal than not, displaying a fair degree of good common sense and decency.
They normally believe fully in free speech and even when they may ‘totally’ disagree with a writer’s opinions, they will publish their articles if tmely and well written. Whatever they decide, they have earned the right to decide and they usually are the final deciders when it comes to what is published in their papers, magazines or web sites.
They seldom explain themselves, as they don’t have to, for over time, they also often become somewhat arrogant and they don’t have or are not willing, to take the time or patience to explain anything. In some ways, they are similar to a captin of a ship. Then too, some become extremely political, yet they are very human and usually are very nice people.
So you may never learn why your articles are not being published as you may wish, don’t sweat it, and don’t ever sweat those who offer you any unnecessary bullshit here either. BTW, it usually takes five years before the pain eases to an acceptable degree, the wound however will never heal. But you will be much stronger, if you don’t become overly bitter. Your son is Okay now, be assured of that.
Dear Kem
Thanks for your words of encouragement. I know that you know what you are talking about in regards to the pain. I am already surprised at the strength that my son’s needless death has brought to me.
I am not stressed about the editors on CD…I just wanted to direct all you lovely people to the article that did not get published here about the truth about Casey…CD goes in cycles with me. I am sure there are good reasons, but , really, the least of my concerns.
Thank you and blessings to you and yours,
Cindy
I watched most of the testimony. These kids weren’t psychopaths but decent young people looking for something useful and honorable to do. If they’d been a couple of years older, they might have chosen better, but they were 17 and 18 and didn’t know what they were getting into. I was 20 when I got drafted. I went unwillingly, but I did what I was told mostly, because I wanted to get through the whole thing with the least possible damage. Things haven’t changed much in 40 years. A GI doesn’t have a lot of options. These were about the most courageous soldiers I’ve seen. There was no valor in their service–the rules of engagement turned them into cowards–but there was considerable bravery in their testimony.
The rules became nonexistent when the invasion began. The US is a rogue regime.
When the Commander-in-Chief flaunts his contempt for the law, as well as his sociopathic enjoyment of cruelty…
it sends a powerful, but clear, unspoken message to the troops.
——————————————-
The POTUS has been on a mission of Destruction:
Iraq,
civil rights,
human dignity,
the economy,
the environment,
his father’s good name and the Bush legacy,
the Republican Party,
and our global reputation.
What’s not to like?
Lately, Little George has been reported showing up quite giddy.
Mission Accomplished.
I would like to advocate for a different Flag Day celebration on June 14.
Fly your flag of course, big or little, high or low but with one difference position it with the 50 star cluster hanging down. This is the danger signal alerting our citizens that our Ship of State, our precious country, is in tremendous danger. We must prepare for its complete demolishment as it has been known since its inception captained by GWB, his poorly chosen officers and crew.
Take as your guide the beginning and final scenes of the great movie IN THE VALLEY OF ELAH starring Tommy Lee Jones.
These soldiers are not just people, they are American people and carry with them the mind set of the American people. This mind set easily dehumanizes others and relates poorly to the rest of the world. The soldiers carry this same defect and it leads them to be blind to the fact that they are criminals. There IS something wrong with them. It is exactly the same as what is wrong with the population in general who even after everything that has happened is ready to vote in a war-mongering republican president again. We are a gun toting people, ready to shoot our way through any problem that crops up.
Thank you, Dahr Jamail, and most of course the soldiers quoted in this article; as well as those not quoted.
The need to be inconspicuous, to disappear, and to be swallowed is a common one. In its simplest form we can see it all around us as a tendency to conform. Under ordinary circumstances the need for anonymity is balanced by the need for individuality, and the mentally healthy person is one who can walk the fine line between them. But in the frightening, lonely situaitons in which the victims of menticidal terror find themselves — situations which have a nightmare quality, which are crammed with dangers so tremendous they cannot be grasped or understood because there is nobody to explain or reassure — the wish to collapse, to let go, to be not there, becomes almost irresistable.
When the sensory stimuli of everyday life are removed, man’s entire personality may change. Social intercourse, our continual contact with our colleagues, our work, the newspapers, voices, traffic, our loved ones and even those we don’t like — all are daily nourishment for our senses and minds. We select what we find interesting, reject what we do not want to absorb. Every day, every citizen lives in many small worlds of exchange of gratifications, little hatreds, pleasant experiences, irritations, delights. And he needs these stimuli to keep him on the alert. Hour by hour, reality, in cooperation with our memory, integrates the millions of facts in our lives by repeating them over and over.
War is a severe circumstance. What happens inside the human psyche under severe circumstances of mental and physical attack is clarified in the studies of the general mental defenses available to man,ways people defend themselves against fear and pressure.
This systematic indoctrination of those who long avoided intensive indoctrination constitutes the actual political aspect of brainwashing and symbolizes the ideological cold war going on at this very moment. As soon as the brainwashee returns to a free atmosphere, the hypnotic spell is broken. Permanent or temporary nervous repercussions take place, like crying spells, feelings of guilt and depression. The expectation of a hostile homeland, in view of his having yielded to the indoctrination, may fortify this reaction.
War has a strong effect on a human being’s motivation, related to his desire to stay alive in time of war. War often unmasks the universal hypocrisies of our species, peering behind self-serving notions about our moral and social values to reveal the darker side of human nature. Perceptions of being under attack are more important than reality in activating behavior switches. “All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked.”
Atrocities occur. The war mentality takes over. The only way to defend oneself from being killed is to dehumanize the theoretical enemy that the government has chosen.
The leaders of war count on this dynamic.
They just never think it will come home to our country and be spoken about in a way that the Winter Soldier has done so profoundly.
The rules of engagement are critical. Remembering that even the enemy is human is critical. When we dehumanize another being, we dehumanize ourselves.
Psychos turned heroes. If they really felt any remorse they’d voluntarily continue their tell-all tour from the inside of a prison.
My local paper and TV news did not even mention this incredible news event. Was this the Winter Soldier event?
It is as if the immorality of US soldiers consistently committing atrocities in our name is not newsworthy. All other national news gets a hollowness about it when one empathizes sincerely.
First, we need to pluck the beam out of the eagle’s eye before we go after the splinter in the tiger’s (China has no excuses either).
Good article Cindy, I just paste it in here.
The Casey Sheehan Doctrine
06:00 PM Mar 04, 2008
The Casey Sheehan Doctrine Cindy Sheehan
One early morning, exactly five weeks after Casey was killed, I was awakened by a disturbing dream. Casey’s father, Patrick and I had traveled to Santa Barbara for Mother’s Day that year to visit the Arlington West exhibit sponsored by the Santa Barbara chapter of Veteran’s for Peace. This was when we still believed that that our marriage was not going to be a casualty of the illegal and immoral travesty of the invasion and occupation of Iraq.
After the initial shock of having a cherished part of me violently torn away, the story that the Army told us about Casey’s death did not ring true. When a former-Lieutenant of Casey’s called a few days after his death to express his condolences, Patrick asked him the question that had been on all of our minds: “Casey was a mechanic, what was he doing in combat?” The Lt. replied: “Didn’t you know, Casey volunteered.” That story about Casey “volunteering” never set right with me. It did not resonate with Casey’s Chaplain’s heart or his reluctance to go to Iraq in the first place and his vow before he left that he would not “kill anyone,” because he could not. Then to put the icing on the cake baked with lies, when the Lt. and one of Casey’s Sergeants came to his funeral, they told us what a great mechanic Casey was.
This lie was the one that I found so hard to swallow. Casey joined the Army to be a Chaplain’s Assistant and when he reported to boot camp in September of 2000, he was told that specialty was “full” and he would have to be a “cook or a humvee mechanic.” Casey picked the specialty that was the least abhorrent to him, but he didn’t like it. When the Lt and Sgt told me that he was a “great mechanic,” I said: “really, he didn’t even know how to change his own oil.” This was just a small matter, but if the two soldiers would lie about a simple thing like Casey’s job to try and do damage control, then they would lie about how he died, too.
Like I said, Casey had been dead for exactly five weeks on that early Mother’s Day morning in 2004 and I hadn’t dreamed about him yet. In this dream, I was at an outdoor amphitheater looking at the stage and I heard a booming voice over the loudspeakers say: “Specialist Casey Sheehan.” I looked up, surprised and overjoyed that he was alive. Casey walked out on stage with a can of Diet 7-up in one hand and an M-16 in the other. He was wearing briefs and nothing else. He nonchalantly put his rifle in his mouth and pulled the trigger. I collapsed on the ground screaming: “The Army made Casey kill himself.” I awakened from the dream and instantly there was an earthquake in Santa Barbara that shook our hotel room.
Of course, the dream fueled my suspicions that the story the Army told us was not true. Since Casey’s death, we have heard so many stories.
About six months after Casey died, one of his “buddies” came to visit. He said that Casey volunteered for the mission and he said: “Sheehan you don’t have to go, and Casey said: “Where my Sgt goes, I go.” Then this Sgt claimed that Casey died in his arms. A year later, the medic who held Casey’s brains in said he was alive when he got to the medic station and the doctor who tried to keep him alive confirmed that story independently from the medic.
I spoke to two un-embedded journalists who told me that Casey’s unit, the First Cavalry, was on a “search and destroy” mission and after Casey was killed in the ambush, they went driving through Sadr City slaughtering anything that moved and strafing apartment buildings in the Shi’a slum that was built for three-millions of people, but contained ten-millions. Martha Raddatz, ABC correspondent, wrote a book that repeated the blatant US military lie that the Mahdi Army was using women and children as “human shields” forcing the US to kill civilians. First of all “human shields” are not a very good barrier (unless the First Cav was using sling shots and pebbles). Secondly, insurgencies need popular support and do not benefit from killing innocent civilians and thirdly, the Iraqi people love their women and children as much as we do.
The “Casey volunteered” story was repeated in Martha Raddatz’s book and she got the info from the soldiers that were in the unarmed and open truck bed that Casey was in when he was killed. Again, regurgitating the official US military lies.
The “Casey volunteered” story was repeated in Martha Raddatz’s book and she got the info from the soldiers that were in the unarmed and open truck bed that Casey was in when he was killed. Again, regurgitating the official US military lies. Recently this email was sent to my < a href="http://www.cindyforcongress.org/">campaign office from a soldier who was near Casey when this event occurred:
I’m very sorry what happened to casey. I knew him I was in his unit and lived across the hall. There has been something I have been wanting to get off my chest though. Why am I hearing he volunteered for the mission. He was a humvee mechanic and he honestly sucked at it. He was a great guy but a horrible mechanic. The truth is that when the 1st sgt who was scared to go out himself asked for volunteers all the nco’s literally ran to the potapottys. Sheehans chief told sheehan to get on the lmtv. Sheehan said ” no, I’m a mechanic” well I remember watching ssg (XXXX) say” get your motherfucken ass on the god damn truck” and he literrally grabbed casey by his collar and dragged him onto the lmtv. Don’t believe me you better ask somebody. That’s also what I told Martha Raddatz but I guess for some reason she didn’t think she should write it that way. Well I’m sorry but if you were told different it was a lie. This is the truth I swear on my son. God Bless and good luck, (NOTE: This email has not been altered by me: CS).
Martha Raddatz confirmed that she was told this, but did not follow up because this soldier was “not on Casey’s truck.” This account of Casey’s last minutes of life upsets me so much, but this account makes more sense to me then the other accounts. The Army had him for almost four years, but I had him for 24 years.
Iraq Vets Against the War is holding a “Winter Soldier” event soon and they will recount stories of how they participated in war crimes or witnessed war crimes which is not in dispute because the entire invasion and occupation is a war crime. These young people came home alive and many of them will have to deal with their demons forever as my Vietnam veteran friends still are, but we families of soldiers who were killed will also be haunted by things we know and things we will never know or never know for sure. The stories of military neglect, abuse (sexual, physical, mental, emotional) or lies are almost as many as there are troops: living or dead.
Casey joined the US Army to be a Chaplain’s Assistant, was made a mechanic then died 5 days after deployment as a very reluctant infantry soldier who had never been trained in urban guerilla warfare. Do I want to sue someone for the wrongful death of my son caused by the criminal behavior of his Commander in Chief and for the cowardice and blood-lust exhibited by Casey’s superiors in the First Cavalry? Of course I do, not to bring Casey back (obviously) but to prevent future heartache and frustration. We families cannot sue because of the “Ferris Doctrine” which prohibits soldiers or family members from suing the government if a soldier is harmed or killed while in service…even for “gross negligence.”
If we cannot sue the military or government I want to propose a “Casey Sheehan Doctrine” that will read something like this:
Whereas, citizens of the United States have basic and profound legal rights protected by this country’s Constitution, irrespective of enacted laws or executive orders, past, present, and future, that violate, weaken, or render nil the very core of those rights, and
Whereas, US citizens serving in the US military, and by virtue of military unilateral enlistment contracts, are by default denied these basic legal rights afforded others of the citizenry, and
Whereas, wars of aggression, imperialist in nature, unprovoked in substance, and profitable by design have been deemed illegal globally, and immoral universally; and that the purveyors of such atrocious events are to be held in contempt of humanity for their crimes of war, and
Whereas, the only justifiable use of force is for protective purposes, for life, liberty, and property, the last of which may be construed to mean one’s country in a broader sense, and
Whereas, any member of the US military has the legal and moral responsibility to refuse any order that is illegal or immoral in nature, especially one that may constitute a crime against humanity, and
Whereas, the US invasion/occupation of the country of Iraq, known as the Iraq War, soon into it’s sixth year of prosecution, has been shown to have been caused directly on the basis of lies, deceit, manipulation and duplicity on the part of the Executive branch of the government of the United States, and the acquiescence of the US Congress, therefore,
BE IT RESOLVED, that all members of the US military war machine–soldiers, marines, airmen and women, and sailors–and those adjunct to them, are called upon to follow their conscience in all matters relating to their military service; and such persons should refuse any orders that might contradict matters of conscience, morality, or law, and further
BE IT RESOLVED, that those in uniform, and families, friends, advocates, and others, of those who serve their country will seek redress for any wrongdoing, abuse, mistreatment, injury, or death upon their person; and this justice should be pursued by any means available, legal and otherwise, up to and including acts of civil disobedience.
Sorry for the long link, I have no idea how that got in there.
I think it repaired itself!
That never happend before but it may be a good idea to send exact copy of writing to yourself first to make sure it copies right….
That could be the problem.
Just a guess
Love…
When I was a kid, a women government agent posing as a Communist threw me out of the bathroom window….
Lucky for me I am flexible…
Thanks Jim!
Love
Cindy
“They went to Iraq to defend the U.S.”
BULL FU”ING SHIT !!
Thank you scgold for the “Valley of Ellah” suggestion. We saw it last night and it was awesome. Funny how this great movie wasn’t given much publicity.
Many young soldiers like I was, enlisted following the example of a veteran father or grandfather. We joined as a rite of passage in becoming a man, seeking discipline and high heroic moral values plus looking good in a uniform for the girls, among other things.
Now that we don’t have a draft, the motives for joining the military have changed a lot. One can actually make money at it, while my generation of draftees were paid slave wages for doing harder work than today’s recruit.
But eventually soldiers realize that there is nothing romantic about the military. It’s drudgery, taking constant harassment from assholes that seem to outnumber good leaders, and ironically becoming a slave in a totalitarian dictatorship. Losing your freedom supposedly in order to save freedom.
Any soldier that enlists for patriotic purposes today is seriously misguided. And judging by their high rate of alcoholism and family abuse, the military seems to create more dysfunctional people than civilian life does. The only reason to enlist today is for the money.
If we really would need the military even as we possess the knowledge and means to make our world a peaceful paradise, we would go and die to defend our loved ones, not for some industrialists.
I feel sorry for young people duped by war profiteers into joining the military. Too many of them will end up as our new batch of homeless.
Thank you CDers, too many to name, who leaped to the defense of these brave Winter Soldiers who exposed themselves to shame and vilification to tell their stories. Even here on CD, self righteous people like josephmorton, iowairish and youngturk rushed to condemn them, being clueless about how they themselves would handle the pressures these young people had to endure, following the lifelong cultural and army brainwashing they were exposed to. I have not been in their shoes, I could not possibly judge them. Christ warned of judging others. Plato said “…Time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain, therefore, awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters”. Words to live by. And surely what people endure in a war setting, where your commanders and their expectations of you, holding your life in their hands, count as highest matters. I’ve read of recalcitrant soldiers being sent out on what they knew were suicide missions. Do not judge what you in your comfortable chair have not had to experience. Pat Tillman wasn’t a loser when he enlisted. Regrettably he was brainwashed, but so are most of our young. it’s easy to do, they want to believe they live in a good country, reflecting their own values. The corporate media is careful not to disabuse them of that notion. Like the soldiers said, they were ordered to play by the book in front of embedded media.
Now I need to go back and read more of these comments. I got here kind of late. Thanks, dear friends, Siouxrose, Poet, Kem, and many others who also understand.
kathyodat
ezeflyer, too many already are ending up homeless. I gave money to a homeless Vietnam vet, who wasn’t actually begging, and he told me he still cries. We hugged, I could smell the alcohol on him. I didn’t care, he’s been mortally wounded by his experience and abandoned by his country. We are the ones with the shame. We demand the utmost from our soldiers and then desert them.
kathyodat
Dear Cindy, I suspect that as you are running against Nancy Pelosi, CD may consider printing your articles to be seen as a form of endorsement and they might have a policy about that. I don’t recall seeing any articles by people running for office, and I’m also not seeing articles by Ralph Nader since he declared his candidacy for President. Just an idea.
Read your powerful story about Casey. Certainly the military has been caught in numerous lies. I’m so sorry about your loss. For what you’re going through, I’m on the outside looking in. But there are those who can understand and console with you and you know who they are. I give you all my love, Kathy.
kathyodat
kathyodat, whether we fight in a just war or have been deceived into taking part in a bloody occupation, most of us probably think the military is an honorable profession. But when criminals take charge, the honor a soldier may feel, is based on ignorance, denial and self-deception.
We can’t fault young men and women that have been brainwashed, but others share some of the blame for war atrocities when denial and self-deception serve to excuse small time war profiteering and killing for fun. The former will suffer PTSD and the latter will come home and become criminals and/or join Blackwater.
Whether it’s a just war or not and lacking the universal will to curb population growth humanely through birth control, I feel the military accomplishes the vital purpose of doing that, however inhumanely.
ezeflyer, I have not thought of the military as an honorable profession since the Vietnam War, and I knoweven before then some bad stuff has come down - I’ve heard references to the Korean “police action” and certainly what we did in the Philippines at the turn of the last century was criminal. And let us not forget what the US army did to American Indians. That doesn’t mean there haven’t been people with honorable intentions joining up. Many soldiers have been upset at what they’ve seen others do, but as with Pat Tillman, it’s dangerous to speak up. As in any management situation, moral standards are established at the top.
ezeflyer, I appreciate your posts, but I cannot agree with your last statement. Inhumane solutions to problems are unacceptable and come with unintended consequences.
kathyodat
Inhumane solutions to overpopulation problems are nature’s way. As long as the conservative beast is in control, nature will take it’s course.
ezeflyer, you’re talking about unevolved beings. There are better ways to resolve these problems. Think harmony.
kathyodat
In nature, the lion inhumanely kills the foal to balance the zebra population. Similarly, if we want humane solutions to human overpopulation and resource depletion, ruling conservative unevolved beings have to adopt humane birth control methods instead of inhumane wars.
The comments section of this page shows the two basic responses to these atrocities, denial or dehumanization.
Either the soldiers (or the politicians, banker,s whoever you want to blame) are not human and therefor the problem, or the Iraqis aren’t human and deserved it.
The answer is not blaming anyone. but realize that we are all human, once that sinks in you’ll begin to look for other causes of these problems, rather than mindless torch and pitchfork waving.
Underlore.com
The comments section of this page shows the two basic responses to these atrocities, denial or dehumanization.
Either the soldiers (or the politicians, banker’s whoever you want to blame) are not human and therefor the problem, or the Iraqis aren’t human and deserved it.
Or basic denial of whatever given fact offends your pallet or worldview.
The answer is not blaming anyone. but realize that we are all human, once that sinks in you’ll begin to look for other causes of these problems, rather than mindless torch and pitchfork waving.
Underlore.com
We may all be of the human race, but conservatives among us act like ignorant, greedy, fearful, reactionary, murdering animals.
No they don’t! They act like humans. Don’t be such a tool, its not about left for right or whatever label you choose.
You going to tell me there’s no amount of money you’d kill someone you’ll never meet for? You gunna tell me that you don’t wish death on a perceived enemy you hate? Bullshit, all reactions are conditional, anyone can be made to want to do anything given the right stimulus. To call any segment of humanity monstrous or minimalistic is dismissive and brings us closer to a solution not one whit.
Bsergent:
It’s not about left or right, its about conservative and liberal. There is little difference between a left wing conservative like Stalin and a right wing conservative like Hitler.
Conservatives have demonized liberals for many years and use the liberal hippie Jesus that they themselves crucified, to justify their wars of aggression. Many of us have swallowed conservative propaganda and consider conservatism to be a good thing. But conservative, the opposite of conservationist, is in today’s world a fearful, reactionary, authoritarian human that favors his greedy animal nature.
BTW, I would not kill someone for money like you might. And killing someone in self-defense doesn’t make me a conservative.
That those of us who tend to our conservative side do monstrous deeds is undeniable. These are the Republicans, the DNC, our fascist administration, the theocrats, the oligarchs, the commissars, serial killers, violent criminals, thieves, rapists and every dictator the world has ever known
Our liberal side is the humanist side that separates us from the beasts. See:
www.thehumanist.org
Our conservative side is the bestial side we inherited from our ape ancestors.
Siouxrose March 16th, 2008 8:54 am wrote:
For the individuals who pointed out what percentage of the US treasury gets wasted on arms and war, very few Americans realize these sums.
Maybe an economist can put the cost of this war and the debt in perspective by comparing it to the finances of the average household, that might go a long way helping the average American understand what is being done on our national credit card. And; think of it in terms of what would happen if they ran their personal finances that way.