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Obama Must Build a Movement to Take Him Beyond the White House
An effective presidency will need his supporters to keep mobilising to take on the corporations and lobbyists in his way
On the night when Barack Obama took Virginia, Maryland and Washington DC with 20 point leads, an equally potent primary result came in from Maryland's fourth congressional district. Away from the glare of the international media, Donna Edwards, anti-war campaigner and community activist, trounced eight-time incumbent Albert Wynn in the battle for the Democratic nomination. This was no minor achievement. A sitting congressman had not been ousted in a primary in Maryland for 16 years. In 2006, a high tide for anti-incumbent sentiment, Edwards lost to Wynn by 3%. But she persevered. Wynn had taken huge sums from lobbyists. He had voted for the Iraq war, Dick Cheney's energy bill and to repeal inheritance tax. Edwards argued that this was against the wishes and interests of his mostly black, middle-class constituents. Last month she beat him by 35%.
There is a symbiotic relationship between Edwards's victory and Obama's potential. To some extent, she rode his coat-tails. The surge in turnout - particularly among the young - and focus on "change" could only have swelled her numbers. But if the energy around Obama's candidacy is going to be translated into an enduring political reality, then he has more to learn from her victory that night than she does from his.
For her win was the product not just of electoral momentum but a political movement. For several years now online activists have been building a progressive counterweight to rightward drift within the Democratic party. In general elections, they attack Republicans. In primaries, they support progressives. And in between time they light a fire under Democrats lest they forget why they were elected.
Edwards was, among other things, a product of that movement. It made her candidacy viable and sustained it after her narrow defeat in 2006. If she goes to Congress and sells out, they will turn on her. If she delivers progressive policies and comes under fire, they will support her. The interests of her candidacy and their priorities coincided. But they are not identical.
As the primary race reaches its denouement, Obama needs to reflect on how he can nurture a similar relationship with his base - not just to sustain his candidacy but to bolster his prospects of actually delivering on his promises. Obama has been described as running a grassroots movement. This is only half true. It is certainly grassroots. In the various states that I have seen it operate there are plenty of local volunteers and local staff. At web-driven meet-ups people get together, independent of the campaign. On Facebook his candidacy has a life of its own. One of the reasons he has won every caucus state is because his supporters are far more dedicated and far better organised at a local level than Clinton's.
But it is not a movement. It has no purpose or meaning beyond getting him elected. Once he wins or loses it will cease to exist. It operates not from the bottom up but the top down. The change he refers to is principally a change in leadership. The chant "Yes we can", in essence, means yes he can.
When I asked a group of volunteers in Charleston who had just literally danced through the streets on Martin Luther King day, why they were so excited about his candidacy, they told me they could not answer without prior approval from head office 115 miles away in Columbia. It is always a troubling sign when politicised people lose their voice or hand it over to a higher authority.
This comes more by way of description than criticism. None of this is a problem for Clinton because she has never pretended she is running a movement (or if she did nobody believed her). Obama alludes to his need for broader support on the stump, regularly telling audiences "this election is not just about me" and "I cannot do this alone". But beyond electing him it is not at all clear where he imagines others will come from or how they would engage. There is little in the way his campaign works to suggest a vibrant, independent insurgency being reined in by headquarters.
What Obama does have is a highly professional electoral campaign that has proved itself adept at getting people involved at every level and harnessing new technologies to that end. So far so good. It is perfectly possible (although by no means inevitable) that by the end of tomorrow night Obama will effectively be the nominee. His team could be forgiven for dwelling on making that immediate prospect a reality.
But then what? If Obama is serious about his desire to fundamentally change the way America operates at home and abroad then he will have take on entrenched, vested interests to beat John McCain and deliver on his promises.
This would be a tall order in the best of times. And these are not the best of times. Whoever wins will inherit a nation in serious state of disrepair. Just in the last two months, since those first caucus goers ventured into the Iowa cold to deliver him his surprise initial victory, the Dow has fallen by 6% and the price of petrol has risen by 4.5%. Meanwhile Iraq is stalling, Afghanistan is unravelling and the former chief prosecutor for Guantánamo's military commissions, Colonel Morris Davis, has conceded that the trials of detainees there are rigged. Taking over from George Bush is a bit like becoming the new manager of Leeds United or chief executive of Northern Rock. You enter with high hopes pinned to your front and "kick me" on your behind.
An electoral coalition of independents, wealthy progressives, African Americans, white men and the young have come together to vote for him, but has yet to mobilise itself into a political movement that can support him. A movement sparked by the issues his candidacy has raised that moves beyond his personality as a candidate.
Were he to win, he would need to tap their outrage at the pharmaceutical companies, Halliburton, lobbyists, Pentagon torturers and corporate tax-dodgers. He would need them sufficiently empowered to confront the banks over their lending practices, multinationals over outsourcing, and universities over rising fees. And in his negotiations with Congress and other powerbrokers he would need to know the limits to what he can concede without antagonising his base.
Obama cannot turn this around on his own any more than Bush got America into this mess on his own. Enough of the public had to be actively complicit in the Bush agenda for it to be possible to make things this bad. Indeed, the right has been extraordinarily adept in this regard. When Bush nominated Harriet Miers or sought to pass immigration reform, they blocked him. When he cut taxes and started war, they backed him. Without them his presidency would have crumbled sooner, and even more dramatically. Enough of the public would have to be equally complicit in Obama's agenda for him to right Bush's wrongs.
But the White House is where that process ends - complete with signing ceremony and fanfare - not where it starts. Tomorrow Obama will once again be running. If he is to be successful, not just electorally but politically, his supporters will have to make sure they do not stand still.
Gary Younge is a Guardian columnist and feature writer based in the US. He was formerly the paper's New York correspondent. His most recent book is Stranger in a Strange Land: Encounters in the Disunited States; he is also the author of No Place Like Home, published in 1999
© Guardian News and Media Limited 2008

86 Comments so far
Show AllBob K, Obama himself didn't meet with any Canadian officials -- that was his economic advisor Austin Goolsbee, who, BTW, is a very liberal economist at the University of Chicago -- and the statement from the Canadian Embassy in Chicago confirms that there was no difference between what Obama was saying in public and what Goolsbee said in private. There was, then, no duplicity on the content of the meeting, only that Obama was not aware of the meeting between Goolsbee and the Canadian officials.
vaudree, I finally got a chance to watch the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation broadcast you linked. You told me, "you've been had." The CBC explained to me that NAFTA is actually a GOOD thing for Americans, and therefor it is just FINE that Obama lied to Ohio voters (saying Hillary was right about renegotiating NAFTA, and that he too would renegotiate it) and then secretly told Canadian officials not to worry, it was only campaign rhetoric.
I had thought it was WRONG for Obama to be duplicitous and dishonest. But now I understand I'd "been had."
unionguy said "I do NOT see a review of voting records as the key factor here." I say people who vote based on image and ignore substance deserve the George W. Bushs and Ronald Reagans they elect. Voting for the least-worst candidate is one thing. But refusing to intelligently and soberly determine who the least-worst candidate is; that's unforgivable. Especially for anyone with the handle of unionguy.
I'll say one last thing about bandwagon voting. In Minnesota, ex-professional wrestler Jesse Ventura campaigned for Governor as a straight-talking guy, a blue collar "union member," and someone who represented an alternative to "politics as usual." College kids and young people jumped on the bandwagon and elected Ventura in an orgy of enthusiasm. But, Ventura governed as a Republican. He cut school funding to the bone and college tuition shot through the roof. When the college kids protested the tuition hikes and funding cuts at the state capitol, Ventura came down from his office to tell them they could go straight to Hell. I'll never forget the dropped jaws and stunned looks on those kids' faces. (Guess who the young, bandwagon voters in Minnesota went for this election cycle.)
As to SallyUUKent, I seriously doubt she is who she claims. She has repeatedly posted Clinton smears. Her "Ten Most Corrupt Politicians in 2007" smear of Hillary Clinton is beyond the pale. That particular smear originated with "Judicial Watch," the creation of extreme right-wing nut job, Richard Mellon Scaife. Read about it, below:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Judicial_Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Sarah_Scaife_Foundation
Just because the media consultant for Chicago's corrupt Daley Machine, former Chicago Tribune political reporter David Axelrod, has also been very successful at getting the U.S. corporate media to market U.S. Senate Foreign Relations member Obama as the next liberal saviour, doesn't mean an Obama Administration is going to change the U.S. establishment's foreign policy of "bipartisan militarism."
Why should people in the United States assume that an Obama administration which brings former Carter Administration nation security affairs advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski back into the White House will radically change the direction of U.S. foreign policy in a more pacifist direction?
When former Columbia University Professor Brzezinski was last in the White House, the Democratic Carter Administration supported the Shah of Iran, supported the Somoza dictatorship and initiated a covert war against Afghanistan that eventually led to U.S. military support for right-wing fundamentalists groups in the 1980s and early 1990s.
Ok. You are a cynic, you are negative, and you disrespect the idealism of youth. Happy? I read CD often and am mostly nauseated by the quality of these discussions, including yours.
RichM - there are plenty of things about Obama's platform that I do not agree with. For one, his very pro-Israeli stand (I'm not anti-Semitic, but I do feel that Israel is a terrorist state bent on oppression of the Palestinians, who just want their own sovereign nation and who want the land back that was stolen from them after WWI when the old Ottoman Empire was broken up and artificial boundaries that created the current Middle East map were put into place). And another, his refusal to back a not-for-profit, single payer health care system like the one proposed by Kucinich.
Those things aside, though, I'd rather vote for Obama than Clinton, because all we're getting with her is Bill back in the White House in an attempt to vindicate himself from the Monica Lewinsky affair. I'm not in favor of a Clinton restoration. I'd rather look ahead to the future with an eye toward someone who might stand a snowball's chance of being willing - and able - to speak to our enemies and maybe, just maybe, restore a little of our nation's tarnished image abroad.
I'm not naïve about the current candidates. I know what each of them stands for and what they'd bring to the Oval Office. I don't agree 100% with any of them on the issues, but the one who best reflects my values is Barack Obama, and even he has some liabilities in my book, but look, if it comes down to a Clinton Restoration, McCain and his 100 year war against the Islamists and Obama, well......guess what? I'm going to take Obama because he at least represents the future, not rushing headlong, Forward, Into the Past!
So chastise me if you want for choosing who I am voting for, but I've looked carefully at everyone's positions on the issues that matter to me the most, and I have made an educated choice based on it. I'm not being caught up in some kind of cult of personality or charisma. Yes, I find that very attractive, admittedly, and yes, I am impressed at Obama's oratorical skills, especially when we've had to wince every time the Current Occupant has opened his mouth in public and uttered some completely idiotic sounding malapropism that makes him sound like an uneducated fool.
But know this, RichM: I'm no youngster. I'm going to be 51 next month, I've voted in every single election cycle since turning 18, even if it's just for little local issues here where I live. I read everything carefully before casting my vote, even little local tax levies and little school board elections and such. I'm no fool when it comes to politics. I know how much even the seemingly littlest issues can affect my daily life. And I vote according to my conscience and what I know to be the right thing.
And that is why, tomorrow, I will cast my vote for Obama in the Ohio primary. I have to go with what feels right in my heart. Sure, as a woman, I'd love to see the ultimate glass ceiling finally broken, but this particular female candidate has too many liabilities against her that could lead to a Republican victory in November. I have to vote for the candidate who stands the best chance of beating McCain. I know that Obama isn't perfect, that I don't agree with each and every one of his platform stands, but his ideas are close enough for me not to hold my nose while voting for him.
That's my 2¢ on why I will cast my vote for Obama, for what it's worth.
Rich M, I'm sure some people support Obama for 'idiotic' reasons. So what? Do you think that support for Hillary Clinton is always the result of a highly sophisticated political analysis? Please be more reasonable when you make your generalizations. Sally's analysis above is a perfect example of somebody who is supporting Obama and does not necessarily live in la-la land.
I do believe that congressional races are more important than presidential ones, although with the rise in presidential power this may not be true in the future or perhaps already. Incumbents need to be kicked out everywhere. A house cleaning is in order. Yet, we hear almost nothing about these races and there seems to be no movement against incumbents. I suspect most of these losers will be reelected. I don't think Americans are capable of handling democracy.
The preoccupation with the race for president while not following congresional races is a sign of the fact that Americans believe in the superior power of the president. This is contrary to the principles of the constitution, or so we were taught. In fact, though, the constitution has shown itself unable to prevent the rise of the Imperial presidency. Article V anyone?
LOL!!!!
Oh, mann, that's funny. The idea that the Obamamaniacs would organize.
The whole point of the Obamarama is that people just want to believe, they don't want to do anything. This American Idol, noit politics. This text in who is cutest, not organize a movement.
Mr. Younge, and everyone else who is old enough, should be ashamed of themselves for participating this farce.
Sally UU Kent, I agree wholeheartedly with your 2 cents. I think you hit the nail on the head.
I am not so pro Obama as anti-Clinton.
And I will never let you fools who pile-on Obama--as if he was equivilant to Clinton-McCain forget it if she manages to "win".
You will get what you deserve, but what pisses me off--as with the idiots who voted for Bush, is we will all suffer when we could've had a substantially greater liklihood for something better.
Lizard, 1:43: I think you're right; Americans believe that the power of the President outweighs that of Congress, even though the Constitution splits those powers.
There are two reasons for this. The first was the Great Depression, when Congress wrung its hands and did nothing while 1/4 of the American work force became unemployed and would have starved without soup kitchens and Home Relief. Only a powerful President -- FDR -- seemed able to ameliorate the terrible suffering (Congress went along, kicking and screaming). The second reason is the unprecedented power grab by Bush and Cheney during the past 7 years. Anyone who hasn't been comatose since the Bushites took power can't help but notice that they've also taken powers that didn't belong to them according to the Constitution.
So one president used unconstitutional powers for the good of the people, while the other used those powers to further enrich the rich, raise corporate welfare to new levels, and set up a near-police state in terms of surveilling our citizens.
Oh, but I forgot: Ralph Nader is sure there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the parties, so it doesn't matter who's President any more.
LOL!!!!
Oh, mann, that's funny. The idea that the Obamamaniacs would organize.
The whole point of the Obamarama is that people just want to believe, they don't want to do anything. This American Idol, noit politics. This text in who is cutest, not organize a movement.
Mr. Younge, and everyone else who is old enough, should be ashamed of themselves for participating this farce.
Read my post above. I am not one falling for a cult of personality, or who is cutest, or the American Idol version of politics. We are Obama supporters, not silly, starry eyed girls giggling over a cute candidate. Shame on you for even accusing us of such.
Obama supporters have come out in droves, crossing many lines of old, young, male, female, black, white, Latino, Asian-American, poor, rich, college educated, blue collar, employed, unemployed, independent, Democrat, Republican and any other definition you can think of.
How many other candidates can boast of such a broad coalition of support? Why is it that Obama has won 11 of the last primaries and is on the verge of winning even more tomorrow? Surely you can't accuse each and every one of us who has voted for or supported Obama of being a fool? Look how many endorsements he has won, from fellow legislators, unions and so many more. Do you dare call them fools or idolators?
Cynics. Sheesh, it's you folks who sit around and whine about the state of the world but don't want to do anything about it who really piss me off. You poo-poo every candidate for every office as not being somehow up to your exacting standards and then whine when they try to do anything and accuse them of everything short of treason.
For once, someone has come along and offered us something we haven't had much of in recent years, and that's HOPE. When was the last time anybody had the temerity to step forward and do that? When was the last time you heard someone say something besides, "Be afraid! Be very afraid!" Don't you think that some of us are tired of all the color coded warnings, the secretive wiretappings, the black sites where God knows what goes on in the way of mediaeval torture, the shredding of our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions, the illegal war and so much more?
So condemn us already for finding someone who offers us hope, like a thirsty man who has just found an oasis after a long walk in the desert. And we're not just falling for that one word, hope. We're watching, listening, paying attention, questioning, reading, learning, studying platforms of the candidates and making informed decisions about who we're going to vote for. We Obama supporters have mostly made an informed decision to vote for our candidate. Oh, sure, there are probably some out there who have chosen him because he's the American Idol of candidates, but don't condemn the rest of us who have chosen him based on careful and informed decisions.
And yes, we're organized. We have field offices, phone banks and volunteers working long and tireless hours day after day after day to make sure our candidate gets elected. They aren't being paid to do this hard work of marching through snow and slush to knock on doors and talk to people, they aren't being paid to sit at phones for long, exhausting hours on end to dial and dial and dial and talk and talk and talk, they aren't being paid to send out flyers and direct mailers and drive to post offices in the often unpredictable Ohio winter weather. These are dedicated, enthusiastic and tireless volunteers working to change their country.
And I thank them for their hard work. It is they who will make a difference in this campaign.
Sally --- you rock! I started writing a response to Rich M. and deleted it because I just couldn't say what I wanted to say without getting too ad hominem. Then I refresh and see that, twice, you've made my point much more eloquently than I could have.
All I want to add is:
I am a 43-year-old, Gen-X, Progressive, who would agree with Kucinich/Nader on almost every policy point.
Howeer, I am most interested in electing a President who displays integrity, conviction, realness, intelligence and leadership.... and Obama is the best candidate I've seen on that basis.
Left Wing Cynic=Right Wing Cynic=Centrist Cynic=Apolitical Cynic
hopefully the movement of which the author speaks will bring Obama to the White House. and then push him to help realize their aspirations and bring hope for our survival as a free and proud people.
SallyUUKent March 3rd, 2008 1:14 pm:
"Sure, as a woman, I'd love to see the ultimate glass ceiling finally broken, but this particular female candidate has too many liabilities against her that could lead to a Republican victory in November."
With all the discussion of gender versus racial politics, it would be good for the US to get the gender thing off its back. And I don't like it when "they" make references to a woman politician for being "whiney" or "petulant". I think that smacks of sexism. I would guestimate that the US is, surprisingly more sexist than racist, when it comes time to pick a president. The overarching racism is trounced by the macho need to have a strong father figure leader at the "bully pulpit".
But, that said, what is it with Clinton that she seems to have shot herself in the foot from day one of becoming a senator? Every vote, pronouncement and gesture since her election has been transparently geared towards achieving the white house. She must think she has to out-Margaret Thatcher, Thatcher.
Defeat the female. Place the Black Man in Office, then lynch the Black Man. And DLC Dims will bring the rope because, like Carter, "he's not one of them." Read some history, it ain't that long ago. Carter was the guy before Raygun and after Ford. His own party fucked him because he was an outsider. So first BHO must defeat the Repugs, then he must defeat his own party - or they will defeat him. This is how we play among the Overseer Class. Aryan politics has always been a blood sport.
Peace.
Well the latest attack on Obama is that he is a Commie!
That is what I heard from a couple friends in Cleveland who think they know everything about the true Obama and what he is gonna do just like some of you Dem Haters on common dreams who know more about what Obama will do than Obama knows....
What I believe he will do is listen to you with respect and that will throw you all for a loop.
If someone listens to you then you may have to answer some questions and take responsibility for your answers.
times they are a changing
Obama volunteers may not have been willing to talk with a news reporter without some sort of official permission. But that's not typical of what I've seen. At a house party last night, the hosts spoke freely, at length, about why they supported him, as did many of the participants. We didn't all have the same reasons in the same order, but there was a lot of common ground. And just having African-American and white (and Cape Verdean, and I don't know what-all else) folks sitting together in each others' living rooms talking about serious political and economic issues is a breakthrough. Regardless of what happens tomorrow, in August, and in November, I don't see things ever going back to pre-Obama. It's up to all of us to continue the organizing and the pressure.
Such impassioned vows of support for Obama! Just as RichM predicted in his first post.
Interesting that you all think that Obama will win tomorrow. I disagree. I think they'll play this soap opera out longer than you think is possible. (Just like in TV soap operas)
http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-will-clinton-win-in-ohio-and-texas.html
Sadly, even with this, Obama is probably still the best one out of the three top candidates. Of course, it could be just the Canadian government trying to influence the American election - as Jack Layton accused Harper of doing today. Nothing short of firing the adviser will save Obama. Tomorrow I will have the Question Period response to the following:
Canadian memo recounts Obama adviser's meeting
Sen. Barack Obama's campaign was thrown on the defensive today after a memo surfaced showing the U.S. presidential candidate's senior economic policy adviser told Canadian diplomats that Obama's call to renegotiate NAFTA was only campaign rhetoric.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080302/nafta_memo_080303/20080303?hub=World
Canadian memo suggests Obama's NAFTA comments 'political positioning'
Obama's adviser rejects interpretation
Barack Obama's threat to withdraw from NAFTA should be viewed as "political positioning," according to a memo written after the U.S. presidential hopeful's senior economic policy adviser met with Canadian officials.
The memo, obtained by the Associated Press, was written by Canadian consulate staffer Joseph DeMora, after a meeting in Chicago last week between Austan Goolsbee and Canadian Consul General Georges Rioux. ...
"You've got a right-wing government in Canada that is trying to help the Republicans and is out there actively interfering in the campaign," senior Democratic adviser Bob Shrum said on MSNBC's Meet the Press on Sunday night.
The Canadian government has denied that conversations took place between Canadian officials and members of any presidential campaign regarding trade.
"The Canadian Embassy confirms that at no time has any member of a presidential campaign called the Canadian ambassador or any official at the embassy to discuss NAFTA," the government said Thursday on its embassy website.
DeMora's memo, however, said that when Rioux asked whether he could expect to hear more NAFTA debate as the U.S. election progressed, Goolsbee indicated no.
"In fact, he mentioned that going forward the Obama campaign was going to be careful to send the appropriate message without coming off too protectionist."
De Mora was unavailable for comment Sunday. A Canadian embassy spokesman, Tristan Landry, told the Associated Press that while it was not uncommon for consulate officials to connect with U.S. campaign officials, "Canada does not in any way seek to interfere in US. electoral politics."
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/03/obama-canada.html
I never expected Obama to take Ohio.
I was born and raised in Ohio and know how right wing it is.
Hillary has to do better than take Ohio she has to take Ohio and Texas in a landslide!
I am not a regular religious man but please God don't subject me to her screeching voice anymore... I promise I will be good.... Please God!
Jim Hussein Glover
Any body who believes that everyone is entitled to a share of the good things that come from the planet will find herself accused of being a communist.
I believe if you have two of something you have somebody else's stuff.
"Obama cannot turn this around on his own any more than Bush got America into this mess on his own." "Enough of the public would have to be equally complicit in Obama's agenda for him to right Bush's wrongs."
This is absolutely true. No single person, not even Mr. Obama, can pull us out of a bottomless tar pit our country has been sliding into. In Democracy, ultimately it is the electorate who has that power and obligation as well. We must have a hand not only in defining but also in achieving new sets of goals which will shape our future. Obama supporters' responsibility is to stay engaged and stay committed through out his campaigns, his presidency (if he is elected) and beyond so that we can achieve what we set out to do: move toward more progressive, just, equitable, responsible, and peaceful society. This is the time to make "Obama movement" America's Movement.
Americans are nothing if not entertaining.
This is hilarious, first, because anyone thinks Obama stands for anything other than Obama, and second, because you think he can beat McCain. The Republicans are holding their breath waiting for tomorrow's results, 'cause they know if Obama wins the nomination, then they're back in the White House for another 4 years. Why? Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption. Hillary has been playing by party rules and not bringing out any of the big guns because that's how the game is played. The Repubs will have no problem with dragging out the whole artillary. As far as I can tell, the man has absolutely no substance, he's a tissue-paper candidate who appeals, not surprisingly, to tissue-paper voters. On the bright side, as Gary Younge points out, whoever wins is almost certainly doomed to failure, and it is probably a good thing that it won't be the 1st woman or the 1st person of color in the White House to fail in the impossible task of cleaning up Bush's mess.
Hillary's liabilities:
1. She's considered to be divisive and polarizing.
2. She's a Clinton, and there are still members of the old "Contract on America" crowd peopling Congress that would like nothing more than a final Clinton take-down and would hound her to hell and gone until they'd be rid of her for good. You think that calls for the impeachment of BushCo have been loud? Honey, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
3. She can't win against McCain. Period. The Republicans will haul out every bit of the heavy artillery they have to take her down once and for all and destroy her and Bill so badly that they'll just about have to go into hiding and skulk back to New York in shame at the end of the entire election.
4. No matter what some folks think, there are still plenty of men who can't vote for a woman President and won't vote for a woman President. Yes, there are still some folks who still think a woman's place is in the kitchen or beside her husband and not out in front leading, believe it or not. I don't care if this is the 21st century, there are still some folks who live in the era of "Leave it to Beaver" and want it to stay that way.
5. Her wayward husband. Paula Jones. Gennifer Flowers. Monica. The blue dress. 'Nuff said. (There are folks who say that if she can't control her wayward husband, how on earth do you expect her to control our country and world affairs?)
6. Whitewater. Yup, there are those who will drag that whole ugly thing out of the basement and use it again as a weapon against Hillary.
7. Vince Foster's suicide. Another old piece of Hillary baggage that will be used against her.
In short, she's got a baggage train long enough to really cause her problems. Even if she were a man, these things would be hauled out of the closest and used against him. These aren't necessarily sexist accusations, they're baggage issues that I know that the McCain people will find a way to use as a weapon to take her and Bill down. Don't forget that even though Karl Rove isn't a part of the Bush administration anymore, he still lurks out there waiting for an opportunity to once again use dirty tricks against someone, and who better than Hillary, who is one of the most reviled and hated women to come down the pike in a very long time.
These are just a few of the reasons I won't support her. She also voted to give Bush the unprecedented war powers he's assumed, and she voted for the Iraqi invasion, and if you listened to the show "Fresh Air" on NPR today, you would have heard the authors of the book "The Three Trillion Dollar War" talk about what the war has cost us in so many ways and what it will continue to cost us for generations to come. She has that on her hands as well and as someone who is paying well over $3 a gallon for gas because of that war, I can't condone voting for someone whose voting record has cost me so dearly in the pocketbook, and she's unapologetic about voting to invade Iraq as well.
FYI, Oil was $25 a barrel before the Iraqi invasion. It is now well over $100 a barrel. The whopping cost increase can be directly blamed on the Iraq war and we'll continue to pay higher costs from now on as a result of said war. This is what you get when you have oil men running the country who are probably making record profits off of the oil price increase.
At least Obama knew from the get-go that the Iraq invasion was wrong headed and stupid, and that shows that he's got better judgement than Hillary. That in itself is another reason that I support Obama over Hillary. Sure, if he wins, he probably won't fully be able to clean up the Bush mess even if he wins a second term, but at least he can try to right the ship enough to put it on a somewhat stable footing. And that's better than Hillary can do. She'd be spending the next 4-8 years fending off the Republican attack machine instead of being able to get anything tangible done in Washington. Washington would once again return to its bitter, partisan and gridlocked ways, and we'd find ourselves no better off down the road than we are now. Do you want that kind of government for the next four to eight years? One that is mired in bitter partisanship instead of solving tough problems plaguing our country and our world?
I don't.
'Nuff said!
RE: - Any body who believes that everyone is entitled to a share of the good things that come from the planet will find herself accused of being a communist.
There are much worst things that one can be called ... such as a REPUBLICAN!
RE: - This is absolutely true. No single person, not even Mr. Obama, can pull us out of a bottomless tar pit our country has been sliding into.
I guess you can call the Alberta Tar Sands a tar pit - yeah, Milton's policies used to create massive oil wealth and "the good life" for a lucky few. That said, there is an election in Alberta tonight and maybe the far right and the newly formed further right parties will split the vote. It would be nice.
RE: - She can't win against McCain. Period. The Republicans will haul out every bit of the heavy artillery they have
No one will keep the Clintons down forever. If either Clinton or Obama lose against McCain, they deserve to lose! I doubt that even McCain thinks that there will be a Republican president - his job is to to plant enough seeds of destruction that the Dems only take back the Whitehouse for one term.
RE: - Her wayward husband.
Even "Real Women" expect to to "Stand by Your Man."
RE: - Vince Foster's suicide.
I don't think that McCain wants to bring up affairs - especially ones that are the subject of speculation but have never been proven to exist.
RE: - Memo
Found out the real dirt behind the leak memo story. Seems that the Canadian embassy approached all the camps a few months ago and sat on the information until after the Ohio debate. Then they exaggerated a bit and intentionally leaked the memo to CTV and the rest of the media picked it up from there.
It doesn't really matter whether what that adviser said was taken out of context or exaggerated or even pretty much fabricated, if you are an Obama supporter, he's got to cut the guy loose. If the person is able to clear their name, then Obama can let the person back. But, right or wrong, keeping the person in the fold makes it look like what Harper's friends are making it look like the person said he agrees with.
On the plus side, if Harper's bunch really felt that Obama would uphold his agenda, then they would not have leaked the memo to CTV. Harper's bunch are worried about Obama.
I note that Harper's bunch did not feel the need to release memos concerning Clinton or McCain - even though they talked to ALL the camps.
This ain't gonna happen.
Obama is deeply conservative.
There will be no progressive resurgence, no movement, no increase in citizen activism.
This is just a corporate generated parade, people voting for a celebrity, not unlike American Idol.
Barack Obama voted to fund the Iraq war TWICE while he was in the Senate. To me voting to FUND a war is the same as supporting it. Why is it that people seem to forget this little fact when they castigate Clinton for her Iraq vote?
"How many other candidates can boast of such a broad coalition of support?"
Blah blah blah- sounds like a reprise of the Ronald Raygun Revolution. I am serious, if you could just pull back a little and read all of this CRAP exalting Sen. Obama like he is the Second Coming. Unless- as I have also read here on CommonDreams- he is seriously holding back so as to avoid being buried alive ala Kucinich and Edwards, we can plainly see that we are indeed being presented a choice between Coke and Pepsi and things are being set up for a continuation of bizznezz as usual.
The real point of the Obama campaign is taking over the Democratic party from the Clintons. That's what its really about. I think many in this forum are unhappy with Clinton's triangulation. For you, Obama would be a refreshing change. There's a whole group of democrats that are not in power, and that group now is almost in. The Clintonistas did win power at one time, but their time is past. The Latino vote is likely to make the difference -- its just their time.
coming from the youth camp. Thank you lizard for focusing on congressional races. As for Obama, I've posted before, it's not about Obama, it's not about Clinton, it is our youth movement, you can't scare us. You can't talk down to us, you can't dismiss us. Our movement first of all knows that we do not want McCain. We gave Hillary a listen for awhile but decided she feels way too entitled and we have not liked that every other day she slings the sh*t at Obama. Obama will or will not do everything we want him to do. So be it. We intend to work locally to make our lives more bearable and win some concessions. If there is anything you all have taught us it's that we have no stake in your game. We work through the internet with youth in all parts of the globe and have decided it's time for you to stop telling us we have no say in our destiny. I say this respectfully. Thank You
to SliMSDaHy: yes, out of necessity he's holding back. If he came on like Kucinich or even Edwards (bless them for help blazing the path)he would've been annihilated(sp?) by the DLC/Billary, Fox, CNN(Fox-Lite,etc. machine. He must speak in code (recall Peter, Paul, & Mary; if if you really say it, you must lay it between the lines.) Yes, the most powerful leader in the world will speak respectfully with everbody else in the world. How in the hell else are you going to achieve world peace, fight starvation, fight global warming, etc.??
I so agree w/thedeed, that it is about taking over the Democratic Party (this is the battle which the people who are suffering and w/conscience watch w/bated breath) As my 22 year old daughter (despite my help, in debt, in debt up to her ears), after standing 3 hours in a 2 mile line, in the World Trade Center in Boston, shouted out, along w/the beautiful people she met, "YES WE CAN"!!!!!!!
He's getting HAMMERED right now in Corporate Media. They pulled out the stops. All Clinton and McCain have to do is watch Obama get DEANSCREAMED and Jerry Brown MOONBEAMED to hell in a handbasket. I'm sure the military industrial complex, megapharms and energy transnationals have NOTHING to do with it.
If they really despise him so much, maybe I should rethink my cynicism.
I actually got to listen to a talking head from Washington Times (SunMyungMoon-ChristioFascist-Rag)... on CNN call for Obama to "reject and denounce" his own Pastor, NOT Farrakhan. This, with the tagline below, "Obama's Radical Ties."
It's really going to be fun when the Clinton Campaign sues Texas Democrats... seats the Michigan Delegates... lobbies for a new Caucus in Florida successfully... while we're consigned to the internet nether-realm, speculating about FRAUD IN OHIO.
Yeah... if I wasn't in America... I'd be horrified by the demented dog and pony show behind the ears of Americans... while we produce another sequel, to our never-ending Splatter Flick abroad.
I'm about ready to do the Dr. Strangelove, "How I learned to quit worrying and LOVE the bomb." Paying attention is WAY too annoying.
Still, until CommonDreams has a 7 PM prime time News Magazine on MSNBC, (in other words, until Hell freezes over)... we can keep whining.
Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption. Hillary has been playing by party rules and not bringing out any of the big guns because that's how the game is played.
Plagiarism? Where? Are you sure that this isn't some dirty trick pulled out by either the Clintonistas or the Rovian Republicans in an attempt to discredit Obama? I've read this book and I don't recall any plagiarism accusations regarding this book, and I work in a library and am keenly aware of any kind of discrepancies that are uncovered regarding any book that becomes a bestseller. So I think you're way off there where that's concerned, and frankly, I smell Karl Rove behind that charge.
And the only "business deal that reeks of corruption" is one with Tony Rezko that he openly admits was a mistake and donated the money he received from Rezko to charity. Hillary, on the other hand, is listed as one of the Ten Most Corrupt Politicans in 2007 by the National Ledger. Do you want someone with that kind of reputation leading our country?
I'm quite sure that there isn't a squeaky clean politician out there who doesn't have some kind of skeleton in his or her closet that could be resurrected and used as a weapon against them in a campaign, but with Hillary, you get a "two-fer" - basically, you're getting Bill back in the White House, and they'll act as "co-presidents". We've already had our Clinton era, which, although it was marked by a budget surplus, remember, much of what seemed to make the good times roll during the Clinton era was the whole "dot-com" boom, which all came tumbling down in a house of cards when it was revealed to be nothing more than a bunch of smoke and mirrors - wild speculation over the "next big thing" that turned out to go belly up and cost a whole lot of people their jobs and caused a huge ripple effect throughout the economy. It's much like the whole sub-prime mortgage crisis going on right now. That was also built on a whole lot of speculation about unending price increases in real estate and when the bubble burst, it caused us to go into the freefall that we're still in right now.
Frankly, I want someone in charge who has displayed good character and judgement and can bring people together to solve tough problems. I want someone who can reach across the aisle and may have a chance to end the bitter, partisan bickering and gridlock that has stalemated Washington for far too long now. I don't see Hillary as possessing those qualities. There are still enough rabid Hillary haters in Congress who will absolutely refuse to listen to her or work with her and will rebuff her at any opportunity possible. She is one of the most hated, reviled and polarizing figures to come down the pike in a long time and I don't see people willing to work with her to solve the tough problems we face in our nation and around the world.
Can you imagine an extremely conservative Islamic nation taking her seriously? They probably wouldn't let her set foot on their soil unless she covered up completely in an abaya or a burqa, and even then, she would not be able to travel alone or speak to a man without a male accompanying her, and of course, that'd mean that she'd have to drag Bill along on each and every diplomatic sortie to conservative Islamic nations just so she could move about.
That is something to seriously consider when choosing the next leader of our country. Whoever they are, they're going to have to deal face to face with leaders of extremely conservative Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and others. A woman would not be listened to or taken seriously by any nation that still goes by sharia law. There is that factor to consider, sadly, but that's the cold hard reality of it all.
So, sorry all you gal pals of Hillary. This isn't the right time for her to be President. Obama, who has lived among Muslims and has an understanding of their culture, would be far better suited to deal with the Middle East situation than Hillary would. Yes, it's a gender thing, sadly, and I wish it wasn't, but that's how it is right now. Nations that follow Wahabbism and sharia law aren't going to take a female leader seriously because of their cultural norms regarding women. I don't like it, but there it is. Deal with it.
I agree with the premise of the article. The Obama "phenomenon" is that his campaign is becoming the focal point of the American people's anger at the Bush regime, and their demand for fundamental change. There are certainly forces pulling the Obama candidacy in different, conflicting directions. What Obama is bringing to the table that is entirely different from all other candidates is that he understands that also, and he is trying to build a people's movement to help him be able to counteract the corporate pressures.
This can only be a positive to progressives, as well as the organized labor movement.
However, the lack of any mention of the organized labor moevemnt in the article was a real disappointment. The labor movement is at this time actually building the militant people's movement that the article is talking about. Labor is holding a series of training sessions for activists in all major cities. They are bldg wide coalitions with faith based progressive groups, community and student/academic groups. This is the real base of growing mass people's movement.
There are certainly no guarantees of success, but there is an absolute guarantee of failure if we don't fight for change. The enthusiasm of the Obama campaign should not be looked down on. It is doing what every Democratic campaign in the last 3 dacades have all promised to do, but haven't been able to do--Get young people to get active, and VOTE!! I stood in line yesterday for 2 1/2 hours at the Columbus, Oh Bd of Elections to vote. The crowd, in its thousands, was 90% African American, and lots of young folks. His support is also coming from even rural GOP areas. What it represents is the people's desire for real change.
The other thing that is happening is that Obama's positions on issues are becoming much sharper, as he talking of the need for change from below. He is the ONLY candidate (except Dennis) to state that he'd raise the cap on social security taxes, have the rich pay their share and that system would be good forever. His position on the war was the best, and it's more solid now (all troops out w/in 16 months). His positions on mideast, while still lacking in balance, is world's better than Hilliary's.
One other thing. Many folks talk about Dennis Kucinich, like him. He is in a political battle in Cleveland for his seat. Massive corporate/AIPAC money was poured in an attempt to unseat him, using a councilman "Corporate Joe" Cimperman. The Unions in N Ohio have provided 95% of his support, almost all of the org'd door to door work, ph banks, etc. I think he'll pull it out, only due to organized labor's work.
To paraphrase Ben Franklin (a characterological anal-retentive in all-too-many other in respects):
Wittnessing either the making of Laws (political debate) --or sausages-- is not for the faint-hearted.
This just in:
Headline
"Obama Backs Bush Administration Policy of Shunning Hamas"
Yet, another politician brought to you by AIPAC
Well, I will not be voting for him, Billary, nor McCain
"someone has come along and offered us something we haven't had much of in recent years, and that's HOPE."
Your response is precisely why it is so shameful that you and the rest who should know better are so agog abt Obama. He offers no more hope than a contestant on American Idol. It is the enthusiasm that people are drawn too, it is not issues, not ideas on how things might be improved, etc. There have been serious alternative presented, but the DC elites, and MSM, don't like actual alternatives. They'd rather a chum of theirs played the role.
Will you be there to hold the hands of all these believers when it turns out Obama is nothing more than another cypher? Who is going to explain to them then that believing isn't organizing.
And for Mr. Younge to be suggesting that this sort of carnival event is a potential, or real, political movement speaks to how deeply awful the world is at this point. The only option people will enter is the one for the well spoken fellow with excellent posture. He's the winner. What kind of a movement do you build around that? Perhaps a youth fashion subculture, which wouldn't be so bad, but it's not a nascent poltical movement.
RE: - As for Obama, I've posted before, it's not about Obama, it's not about Clinton, it is our youth movement, you can't scare us.
Robots cannot feel fear and, thus, cannot show bravery. The jaded youth who have seen it all and heard it all! Sure we could scare you, but should we? You know that case that Naomi Klein refers to on page 31 of The Shock Doctrine involving 9 former patients of Ewan Cameron? Do you know what that case is called? It is named after the first of the nine to come forward. Val Orlikow was seeking treatment for postpartum depression. She died in 1990. Her husband was an MP and he was frightened at the possibility of taking on the CIA, but he did so any way. Brian Mulroney, the Prime Minister at the time, put every road block in the way of the case he could. Turns out that German money provided by an arms dealer rigged the leadership race that Brian Mulroney needed to win before he could become Prime Minister. Brian Mulroney admits to accepting envelopes of money handed to him in hotel rooms.
Cheney makes Mulroney look like a man of integrity.
That is enough for a start. Will save the really scary stuff for later.
About Obama, the higher the expectations surrounding him, the harder it will be for him to live up to them. I think he is better than Clinton or McCain, I just don't know by how much. He risks being the next Bob Rae.
I won't talk down to you. I won't dismiss you. But when someone says that I can't scare them it gets a bit tempting.
RE: - However, the lack of any mention of the organized labor moevemnt in the article was a real disappointment.
You will get your wish soon enough. I bet there will be an article about the memo Harper's bunch leaked to CTV up here within the next couple of days. Those who want to renegotiate/scrap NAFTA want a trade agreement where labour rights are protected and the removal of trade barriers is based on the exporter maintaining a certain level of labour standards.
I am happy that Clinton and Obama are not happy with NAFTA, but quite disappointed that neither mentioned the SPP conference in New Orleans in April. I expect whoever out of Clinton or Obama who is still standing by then to have observers status at that meeting. He/She may not be able to influence its outcome but they should at least be able to tell us what went on there.
Speaking of scary, what do you know about the SPP?
CANDIDATES' VOTING RECORDS COMPARED (updated March 4, 2008)
What is more important, image or substance? Rhetoric or record?
Candidates' campaign speeches change from week to week. They pander to one group, then they pander to the next group. So, how do we know what they really stand for? Check their voting records!
Right now, Clinton and Obama are promising to fix NAFTA and other trade deals. But, how did they vote on that issue when they had the chance? They are promising to end the war in Iraq. How did they vote on that issue when they had the chance? Corporate welfare, environmental protection, social justice, public health, consumer protection — they've voted on all these important Progressive issues, and more!
Clinton, Obama and McCain have all been U.S. Senators for the past three years. Here's how they voted:
(1) Confirmation of Condoleeza Rice to be Secretary of State (vote taken 1/26/2005)
Analysis: Neo-con, war criminal
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(2) Tort "reform" (Class Action Fairness Act of 2005) (vote taken 2/10/2005)
Analysis: Opposed by more than 68 consumer, civil rights, environmental and labor groups, it was described as the "final [Republican] payback to the tobacco, asbestos, oil and chemical industries, at the expense of ordinary families whose health has been compromised."
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(3) Dayton Amendment (S.Amdt. 31) to the 2005 Bankruptcy Act (vote taken 3/3/2005)
Analysis: Would cap credit card interest rates at 30%. Senator Dayton provided examples of predatory lenders charging vulnerable people more than 1000%/year interest. Republicans argued that "free-markets" should set interest rates, and government should not interfere.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: No, McCain: No
(4) Energy Policy Act of 2005 (vote taken 7/29/2005)
Analysis: A corporate-welfare bill called "bad policy" by Public Citizen because it gives "billions of dollars in unjustified subsidies to the fossil fuel and nuclear energy industries," rollbacks environmental regulations for the oil and gas industry, and "repeals the Public Utility Holding Company Act (PUHCA), an essential consumer protection that ensures that electric utilities exist to serve the people, not the profit interests of large corporations."
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(5) Dorgan Amendment (S.Amdt. 1665) to the 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill (vote taken 9/15/2005)
Analysis: Would prevent future trade deals that allow "dumping" of products into the U.S. at prices below their cost of acquisition (harming U.S. farmers, ranchers, businesses and workers), by prohibiting the Commerce Department from weakening current countervailing duties and antidumping laws.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: No, McCain: No
(6) Confirmation of John Roberts to the Supreme Court (vote taken 9/29/2005)
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No, Obama: No, McCain: Yes
(7) Confirmation of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court (vote taken 1/31/2006)
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No, Obama: No, McCain: Yes
(8) USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization (vote taken 3/1/2006)
Analysis: Allows the government to spy on citizens in "fishing expeditions" without probable cause or a court order, including listening to telephone calls, intercepting emails, accessing private medical records, library records and bank records, and searching homes and businesses without permission or knowledge.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(9) Feinstein Amendment (S.Amdt. 4882) to the 2007 Department of Defense Appropriations Act (vote taken 9/06/2006)
Analysis: Outlaws use of cluster bombs in most cases, in order to protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(10) Iraq withdrawal timeline goal (2007 Supplemental Appropriations Act) (vote taken 3/29/2007)
Analysis: Provides that, "The President shall commence the phased redeployment of United States forces from Iraq not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, with the goal of redeploying, by March 31, 2008, all United States combat forces from Iraq."
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(11) Kyl-Lieberman resolution on Iran (vote taken 9/26/2007)
Analysis: Tantamount to a declaration of war (Sen. James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy).
Clinton: Yes, Obama: NV, McCain: NV
(12) Feingold-Reid Amendment (S.Amdt. 3164) to the 2008 Department of Defense Appropriations Act (vote taken 10/3/2007)
Analysis: Requires the President to safely redeploy all U.S. troops from Iraq by June 30, 2008, except for those needed for al Qaeda operations, security and training.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: NV, McCain: No
A good Progressive would have voted as follows:
(1) Condoleeza Rice: NO
(2) Tort "reform": NO
(3) Cap credit card interest rates at 30%: YES
(4) Energy bill: NO
(5) Prevent unfair trade deals: YES
(6) John Roberts: NO
(7) Samuel Alito: NO
(8) USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization: NO
(9) Outlaw cluster bombs: YES
(10) Iraq withdrawal timeline goal: YES
(11) Kyl-Lieberman resolution on Iran: NO
(12) Iraq withdrawal timeline requirement: YES
Here are the candidates' Progressive vote totals:
Clinton score: 8 of 12
Obama score: 4 of 12
McCain score: 1 of 12
Sally UU Kent and those who agree with her first post here NEGLECT, surely wittingly, or it strongly seems anyway, that as critical as it is to get Israel and therefore the US to abide by international laws or treaties, and the UN Charter, and as important as it is for a [civilised] country to provide universal health care coverage, these are only two issues to be very carefully considered, and Obama already fails with these two.
Similar and evidently related to his full support of hellbent Israeli state crimes has been his full support for totally criminal threat of war against Iran, including with the use of nuclear bombs.
His position, what he pledges to do with respect to the war on Iraq, this is clearly NOT going to end the, so far, unending war on Iraqis. We don't take his word for anything on this, except wherein his pledges on what he proposes to do if elected president clearly "spell out" that he is NOT going to end this war.
He says nothing on the criminal war on Afghanistan, another, and so far, unending war of aggression.
He says nothing about the urgency of needing to return Kosovo as a province of Serbia and for the USA to stay the FUCK OUT of other countries' affairs.
He takes no valid position on the need to stop all criminal and cover US black ops in African countries, which includes the need to draw in USAID and to lock this other hellbent US govt agency up ... forever, for the agency is a propaganda, media deception tool for covering up these covert US black ops in Africa.
He has no valid or significant position in terms of the urgency of the need for the USA to stop its imperialist, ... hellbent crimes in South American and Caribbean countries, which necessarily includes restoring the democratically elected govt of Haiti, and throwing all the bastard violent criminals the US, Ca, and France, with extremely criminally complicit UN "peacekeepers", back behind bars where these fiend criminals need to be for the rest of their earthly lives. Also, there's the need for the US sanctions against Cuba to be totally terminated, and for due reparations to be provided.
When speaking of sanctions, the US must stop demanding that sanctions be imposed against Iran, which hasn't done anything wrong, while wrong is all the US ever does around the world; all of it.
He takes no position on the need to totally end the totally hypocritical US govt racket called the 'drug war'; not that this issue is one he'd need to be including mention of during his primary campaign, or the ensuing presidential one, if he's the one the DP nominates.
He takes no position on the need to totally end genetic engineering of seeds for agriculture; or for any purpose whatsoever, for that matter.
Etc. The above are some of the top-priority issues a truly good, honourable US presidency will need to address, and Obama is certainly not going to try to tackle even 20% of these issues.
And it all relates to the USA needing to make the govt truly democratic, representative of The People and law, the valid laws anyway, and international treaties, which means putting a complete end to U.S. govt fascism and particularly the corporatist kind.
Obama is NOT going to do these things; his supporters will have won a partial lottery if he accomplishes [any] of these urgent needs at all.
To believe people only based on their spoken or even written words is FAR unwise; what needs to be judged are actions and official statements, and given that political candidates very regularly LIE during campaigns for office, these are then not the kind of statements and actions that I mean by 'official'. What I mean by that is actions and statements as senator or member of congress, whichever branch a candidate in question is or has been member of.
Again, with respect to Iraq, he says bla bla bla, and people are apparently treating these words as if he is really promising to work on ending the war of aggression there; but anyone who's honest and reasonably capable with mathematical-type of PRECISE logic and problem solving can quickly realise that he is NOT talking about ending the war, but continuing it. We don't need to be educated in maths, but do need to be able to precisely apply the logic needed to understand what he and others really say when they pretend to be saying something starkly different.
Liars fool people sometimes due to the latter being incompetent, fools, naive, or too inexperienced, while some other cases are with very cunning liars, who then can fool even "sharp" or relatively "sharp" people. Charlatans don't exist in purely imaginative terms, fiction; they have and others do exist and operate, and many enough of them "succeed" in getting some unfortunate, naive people to be fooled.
Now I'm not saying Obama's a liar or charlatan, but in terms of appearence, I can understand if some people think this about him. He lies, but maybe it's just that he is not realising that he is badly mistaken, thereby not lying, but fooling himself as well as many of his supporters.
Between him and Billary, well, I'd definitely NEVER be supportive of her for [any] political office; but then I'm, so far, based on his [real], not dreamed-up track record as member of elected office, well, don't hold any greater value in either of their candidacies.
What seems to be very much happening AGAIN is uncivilised USA promoting 'less of evils' for president; again, as usual, etc.
I can't go along with that hellbent way, for while most of these "Americans" evidently do NOT care about Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Kosovans, Haitians, Africans, etc., I DEFINITELY DO, and my vote would not be placed without making these people my topmost consideration for who to vote for here.
I therefore would not vote for either the RP or DP in the USA, or the CP or LP in Canada (Conservative and Liberal parties); although would certainly support Kucinich or Gravel (not sure what's going on with his campaign, now, and not sure if he's still with the DP or if he's switched to Independent).
Pro-Obama people are evidently NOT for stopping the USA's extreme crimes against HUMANITY; plain and simple. Like it or not, argue all you want, it's still the conclusion careful examination of what they are supporting [really] means or amounts to.
Either that, or Obama has been and continues to be extremely holding out from saying what he really plans to do if elected president; and while he might be doing this about some issues, I doubt that it's with respect to even half of the critical issues we can (and should) truthfully list or refer to.
People not willing to correctly address such concerns are in a sense mistaken, going about being a voter in mistaken manner, for all of these concerns should be honestly and respectfully addressed in a civilised, morally ethical, caring, ... democracy. If the concerns are known to be off-base in any real ways, then this should be clarified, instead of partaking in the breeding of either ignorance or miscomprehension, confusion.
Obama's supporters don't do this. They provide NO reality-based reasons for supporting him; besides for their stated support of him being reality-based, "of course". They say bla bla bla pro-Obama, pro-Obama, ..., but without being able to provide any reason for what they pretend to be his credibility, which critically is very low or little.
If Obama tells them the moon's blue with neon-green pokadots, then will they still believe him? After all, facts don't seem to persuade these people.
Anyway, if he's elected president and does as my concerns indicate that I expect he'll do, and not, then the rest of us prefering good, not 'less evil' but good candidates will have MANY more people than only him to fault for the continuation of the extreme crimes of the USA all over this planet.
To NOT be willing to address and dicuss the critical issues, ALL of them, is to be anti-democratic, or, and at best, stupidly, moronically democratic; instead of ethically, intelligently, responsibly, and intelligently. People of the latter kind of character do NOT fear addressing and discussing issues decisions should be based on, instead realising that it's by addressing them, making them known and well understood, so, and basically, inherently meaning to be ready to discuss them is THE WAY TO ALWAYS PROCEDE, to act and react. After all, these people have seriously worked at arriving at their understanding of the issues and their importance, so they'll do what they can to help promote the just resolutions of these issues.
NONE of the pro-Obama supporters have been doing this. When any do, it's very partial, subjectively selective; instead of covering all of the important issues, or if not all of them, then most.
Yet I still agree with Dave Lindorff's article posted here during I believe the first two weeks of Feb., the piece in which he says that Obama's most surely going to do as the hidden and real ruling elites, corporatists, want; unless he gets widespread and strong pressure from his voters, or preferably all voters, which Lindorff did not claim to believe that he thinks is going to happen and which I very much doubt will happen.
Going by these Obama supporters, it's as if we live in a world or time in which the corporatist rulers of the US govt (and NATO) are not particularly powerful; instead of the reality we do really live in and in which these corporate rulers are [very] powerful.
To go against them will require massive pressure-support from US citizens, or a very morally ethical presidency. Even the latter would not fare well at all without massive, widespread pressure-support from voters, for a president also has the Congress and Senate to deal with, and these are filled with mostly criminals.
Maturely address and discuss the issues; this is the way to be truly for real and sane democracy! Disneyland "dreaming" (not that I'd care to have it in any of my dreams, for it'd be unwelcome trespassing) does not make for my idea of LIFE; although the brew pub with a social atmosphere was a welcome spot to learn of, putting a touch of the real human (civilised human) world within Disneyland's "park" of superficial "attractions" (and that's the adult section). Oh, and I mustn't forget the young ladies from France and who worked some tourist booth along the waterway having been pleasant to speak with, too; adding another fine real-world "touch" to the place, compound, "future concentration camp for detained elites", ... whatever the grounds are called. Food was okay, but I didn't see any of the healthier or simply healthy Mediterranean dishes; but those ladies were pleasant, and the pub was social, so it was easy to grab a brew or two and to casually speak with the other people there, many of whom looked depressed (probably suffering from the anti-socially, aka sociopathically, diseased "civilisation" of the USA).
Discuss [the issues], and hopefully cease pretending that words are more meaningful than ACTIONS. Even Satan makes pledges of bringing peace, ending war of aggression, etc., while really having no plans for doing any good whatsoever, and never doing ..., but evil; exposing his words for what they are, charlatan LIES. Diabolically oriented humans also say "nice" things and are a notch less bad (than Satan and other demons), but sure aren't supportable in any morally ethical terms; not with respect to their choices. If we can't honestly discuss the critical issues, then we really are saying that we're either too incompetent, or we selfishly wish to try to twist democracy in our own subjective ways; instead of thinking and acting, which certainly includes voting, in the 'COMMON INTEREST', which, in turn, does not mean exclusion of utmost consideration for the USA's many millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of victims worldwide.
To be SELFISH is to be against sound, healthy commonsense; it's to irrationally believe that it does not matter how much we are complicit in genocides and other extreme crimes against humanity, as long as we selfishly live comfortably.
Obama's NOT going to do any good in terms of the US economy alone, much less good on the even more critical issues. Only selfish people could prioritise the nation's economic woes over the lives of hundreds of innocent people who are victims of the same nation and its electorate. If that's the choice made, then these choosers' lives are WORTHLESS, just toxic air; either that, or they're [awfully] naive.
People who obstinately want to be narrow-minded and selfish will have their way, for themselves, because there's nothing others can do about resolving such matters. And others will then have reality-based grounds for honestly criticising these selfish and/or naive choices and related reasoning; if any reasoning is even presented when the selfish or naive choices are stated.
77% of "Americans" insanely and irresponsibly supported war on Iraq at a time when there was no way that this could be justified, not even a little.
"Americans" evidently don't tire of being hellishly criminal; they always find excuses for continuing.
Mr. Yonge supposes that Joe Lieberman's protege can build a populist movement, eh? Now where have I seen that before?
Maybe here:
"'I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'
`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'
`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'
`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'
`It is the same thing with you,' said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn't much."
SallyUUKent, you've summed it up well. I've met many Obama voters, young and old, and I have yet to encounter the awful stereotypes presented here of vacuous mesmerized 'Obamamaniacs' who are voting for him just because he says 'hope' or 'change' or that they like the way he looks. I have no doubt a few exist, but I haven't seen them.
BTW, none other than Rush Limbaugh has instructed his dwindling army of Dittoheads to vote for Hillary in the primary, ostensibly because he wants to 'bloody' Obama before the general election, but I think his hidden agenda -- and it's not exactly a big secret -- is that the GOP actually wants to run against Clinton. 16 years of right-wing attacks have left her with about half the public who say they won't vote for her. I meet nearly one person a week who'll vote for Obama, but never Clinton. That's something she can't reverse before November -- there are people out there who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton if she sprouted wings and a halo. It may not be fair, but it's a fact.
Femme Fatale wrote: "Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption."
Really, Femme Fatale. Why didn't you quote a source for that outburst? I follow the news pretty closely and this is the first I've heard of Obama being accused of plagiarizing anything in his books, or that he has business deals that 'reek of corruption.' Tony Rezko is currently on trial, but not convicted of any crime, and every major paper in Illinois cleared Obama of any connection to the Rezko charges. (Common sense: If he were connected, he also would have been charged with Rezko.) Obama and Rezko happened to be neighbors, Obama bought some land from him, and Rezko contributed money to his campaigns, which Obama has given to charity since Rezko's arrest. If you have anything else, why not post it here? Or are you just throwing stuff out hoping that something sticks? If you think Obama stands for nothing, I suggest you cure your ignorance by reading his positions on the issues at www.barackobama.com/issues
LOL, Vaudree, but McCain won't be doing his own slashing and bashing -- in the well-worn pattern established by Morning-in-America Reagan, his surrogates in the Right Wing Noise Machine will keep a steady stream of political sewage pouring on the Dems while St. John the Hero scathingly derides and humbly apologizes for it -- after the damage is done. And how about that ace up the sleeve of Coulter and her neocon media minions pretending to hate McCain to sucker in the independent vote? "Gee, if that idiot Sean Hannity hates McCain, he must be okay." Machiavelli would be disgusted by this crowd.
Vesselpessel, Obama voted to fund the troops, as did Hillary, and not the war per se -- recall that Bush used the troops as hostages in his 'negotiations' with Congress and threatened to cut supplies and aid to them. It's nice to think that the Dems would resist this kind of sleazy blackmail, but Bush has the media on his side and when these bills came up, I remember the subtext of stories on CNN and in the Washington Post, not to mention Fox News: the Big Media slammed the anti-funding Dems, huffing and puffing that they were trying to impede the president in fighting the war on terror.
Some conservative Dems were also on the side of Bush so, without a united front and enough votes, any attempt to stop the war through defunding was destined to fail, and leave egg on the faces of those who voted to cut Bush's war bucks. In the kind of political pragmatism that will make you purists faint from the vapors, both Clinton and Obama, knowing the war funding bills would pass anyway and planning on running for president, decided to remove that issue from the GOP attack arsenal. Imagine the hysteria if they had voted to defund -- "Obama/Clinton voted against our troops in a time of war!"
Also, let's be kinder to poor RichM and some of the other churlish anti-Obamans here and appreciate their rare talent -- (Warning, ad hominen attack to follow) -- it's got to be hard to type with your head firmly lodged in your rectum.
Well, if it isn't Bob K back with another specious 'progressive' test. Bob, just for you I'm cross-posting this:
Here, let me give you a straight up comparison of two senators' records in my own version of your 'Test of Knowledge':
1. Jordan Free Trade Agreement, Senate voice vote, Sept. 24, 2001: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
2. US-Vietnam Bilateral Trade Agreement, House Joint Resolution 51, Oct. 3, 2001: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
3. Chile Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #319, July 31, 2003: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
4. Singapore Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #318, July 31, 2003: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
5. Australian Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #156, July 15, 2004: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
6. Morocco Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #159 on July 21, 2004: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
7. Bahrain Free Trade Agreement, Senate vote, Dec. 13, 2005: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
8. Oman Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #250, Sept. 19, 2006: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
Why, it appears 'more-progressive-than-Obama' Hillary Clinton and conservative Republican John McCain vote exactly the same on trade issues, doesn't it? But it's false and meaningless -- just as you did, Bob, I cherry-picked votes to make Clinton look as if she was as conservative as McCain when, in fact, it's much more complicated than that. You trying to pass off your 'test' as a gauge of someone's 'progressivism' is as ludicrous as my example above.
Some of us have not been asleep at the wheel through the DLC monopolization of the Democratic party which brought us NAFTA, deregulation of the media and welfare reform. We have witnessed a passive and compliant Democratic party sell our country out and enable the most damaging administration in our times. We watch now as Republicans, seemingly demoralized, sit back with pleasure and watch Clinton run a negative, deceptive and unethical campaign, referring to it as a "soap opera" which benefits them the most. Rush Limbaugh encourages Republicans to go out and vote for Hillary as the candidate they would chose to run against. He mentions how she is "bloodying Obama". Pundits shrug off her fear-mongering tv ad saturating the airwaves like the Dean scream as typical of any campaign. But isn't she a Democrat? Why is she fueling the Right-wing battle front by triangulating on the Right's pattern of fear and hawkish sabre-rattling? She will stop at nothing even if it means damaging the Democratic party case for her own selfish ambition–and the Clinton DLC has monopolized the party for far too long making it irrelevant and ineffective. First things first. In order for the Democratic party to be a force to be reckoned with, the Clintons have to go–and they deserve to be run out of town on a rail.
First things first. Clinton embraces all the Right's talking points and strategies, but I ask you, can you imagine Obama running the scary ad? Clinton supports the worst extremes of Zionist Israel, Obama differentiates between support of Israel and allegiance to Likud. Obama would talk to our "enemies", Clinton shares Bush's approach. Clinton is willing to destroy the potential Democratic alternative for her own selfish entitlement via jaded calculation. This is a no-brainer folks--there is opportunity here and there is the potential for great loss. Progressives who now would enable Clinton by not rallying against Clinton to lose are as destructive to the future as Republicans who support Clinton to win.
First things first. Stomp Clinton.
Dems = Bush-enablers
Dems = Complicit
That's why vote
NEITHER OF THE TWO EVILS
re: RSJ (6:55 am)
"Obama voted to fund the troops, as did Hillary, and not the war per se —"
This claim is just not credible.
Obama's intelligence deserves more respect. The Senate did not face some sort of wishful partitioning of monies when it came time to vote.
"Some conservative Dems were also on the side of Bush so, without a united front and enough votes, any attempt to stop the war through defunding was destined to fail, and leave egg on the faces of those who voted to cut Bush's war bucks."
If I understand you correctly, avoiding egg on one's face is more important than doing the admittedly right thing in a life-and-death question.
"... the kind of political pragmatism that will make you purists faint from the vapors..."
One man's "purist" gesture is another man's basic principle. I don't see how it gets much more basic than life and death.
Your defense of Obama makes him seem gullible and unprincipled. Also, the swipe at RichM was uncalled for.