Obama Must Build a Movement to Take Him Beyond the White House
An effective presidency will need his supporters to keep mobilising to take on the corporations and lobbyists in his way
On the night when Barack Obama took Virginia, Maryland and Washington DC with 20 point leads, an equally potent primary result came in from Maryland's fourth congressional district. Away from the glare of the international media, Donna Edwards, anti-war campaigner and community activist, trounced eight-time incumbent Albert Wynn in the battle for the Democratic nomination. This was no minor achievement. A sitting congressman had not been ousted in a primary in Maryland for 16 years. In 2006, a high tide for anti-incumbent sentiment, Edwards lost to Wynn by 3%. But she persevered. Wynn had taken huge sums from lobbyists. He had voted for the Iraq war, Dick Cheney's energy bill and to repeal inheritance tax. Edwards argued that this was against the wishes and interests of his mostly black, middle-class constituents. Last month she beat him by 35%.
There is a symbiotic relationship between Edwards's victory and Obama's potential. To some extent, she rode his coat-tails. The surge in turnout - particularly among the young - and focus on "change" could only have swelled her numbers. But if the energy around Obama's candidacy is going to be translated into an enduring political reality, then he has more to learn from her victory that night than she does from his.
For her win was the product not just of electoral momentum but a political movement. For several years now online activists have been building a progressive counterweight to rightward drift within the Democratic party. In general elections, they attack Republicans. In primaries, they support progressives. And in between time they light a fire under Democrats lest they forget why they were elected.
Edwards was, among other things, a product of that movement. It made her candidacy viable and sustained it after her narrow defeat in 2006. If she goes to Congress and sells out, they will turn on her. If she delivers progressive policies and comes under fire, they will support her. The interests of her candidacy and their priorities coincided. But they are not identical.
As the primary race reaches its denouement, Obama needs to reflect on how he can nurture a similar relationship with his base - not just to sustain his candidacy but to bolster his prospects of actually delivering on his promises. Obama has been described as running a grassroots movement. This is only half true. It is certainly grassroots. In the various states that I have seen it operate there are plenty of local volunteers and local staff. At web-driven meet-ups people get together, independent of the campaign. On Facebook his candidacy has a life of its own. One of the reasons he has won every caucus state is because his supporters are far more dedicated and far better organised at a local level than Clinton's.
But it is not a movement. It has no purpose or meaning beyond getting him elected. Once he wins or loses it will cease to exist. It operates not from the bottom up but the top down. The change he refers to is principally a change in leadership. The chant "Yes we can", in essence, means yes he can.
When I asked a group of volunteers in Charleston who had just literally danced through the streets on Martin Luther King day, why they were so excited about his candidacy, they told me they could not answer without prior approval from head office 115 miles away in Columbia. It is always a troubling sign when politicised people lose their voice or hand it over to a higher authority.
This comes more by way of description than criticism. None of this is a problem for Clinton because she has never pretended she is running a movement (or if she did nobody believed her). Obama alludes to his need for broader support on the stump, regularly telling audiences "this election is not just about me" and "I cannot do this alone". But beyond electing him it is not at all clear where he imagines others will come from or how they would engage. There is little in the way his campaign works to suggest a vibrant, independent insurgency being reined in by headquarters.
What Obama does have is a highly professional electoral campaign that has proved itself adept at getting people involved at every level and harnessing new technologies to that end. So far so good. It is perfectly possible (although by no means inevitable) that by the end of tomorrow night Obama will effectively be the nominee. His team could be forgiven for dwelling on making that immediate prospect a reality.
But then what? If Obama is serious about his desire to fundamentally change the way America operates at home and abroad then he will have take on entrenched, vested interests to beat John McCain and deliver on his promises.
This would be a tall order in the best of times. And these are not the best of times. Whoever wins will inherit a nation in serious state of disrepair. Just in the last two months, since those first caucus goers ventured into the Iowa cold to deliver him his surprise initial victory, the Dow has fallen by 6% and the price of petrol has risen by 4.5%. Meanwhile Iraq is stalling, Afghanistan is unravelling and the former chief prosecutor for Guantánamo's military commissions, Colonel Morris Davis, has conceded that the trials of detainees there are rigged. Taking over from George Bush is a bit like becoming the new manager of Leeds United or chief executive of Northern Rock. You enter with high hopes pinned to your front and "kick me" on your behind.
An electoral coalition of independents, wealthy progressives, African Americans, white men and the young have come together to vote for him, but has yet to mobilise itself into a political movement that can support him. A movement sparked by the issues his candidacy has raised that moves beyond his personality as a candidate.
Were he to win, he would need to tap their outrage at the pharmaceutical companies, Halliburton, lobbyists, Pentagon torturers and corporate tax-dodgers. He would need them sufficiently empowered to confront the banks over their lending practices, multinationals over outsourcing, and universities over rising fees. And in his negotiations with Congress and other powerbrokers he would need to know the limits to what he can concede without antagonising his base.
Obama cannot turn this around on his own any more than Bush got America into this mess on his own. Enough of the public had to be actively complicit in the Bush agenda for it to be possible to make things this bad. Indeed, the right has been extraordinarily adept in this regard. When Bush nominated Harriet Miers or sought to pass immigration reform, they blocked him. When he cut taxes and started war, they backed him. Without them his presidency would have crumbled sooner, and even more dramatically. Enough of the public would have to be equally complicit in Obama's agenda for him to right Bush's wrongs.
But the White House is where that process ends - complete with signing ceremony and fanfare - not where it starts. Tomorrow Obama will once again be running. If he is to be successful, not just electorally but politically, his supporters will have to make sure they do not stand still.
Gary Younge is a Guardian columnist and feature writer based in the US. He was formerly the paper's New York correspondent. His most recent book is Stranger in a Strange Land: Encounters in the Disunited States; he is also the author of No Place Like Home, published in 1999
© Guardian News and Media Limited 2008
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86 Comments so far
Show AllYeah and Obama is nothing but a high paid porch monkey!
The endless dialogue of people here who try to knit-pic the points of the candidates. No one is perfect and the way the system is designed if one wanted to vote the right way it would be impossible. one most hope that the candidate will rise to the rhetoric. the man must have a congress with him and not forced to endless compromise to make a plan a reality. One only finds that possibility in a dictatorship.
Sure Obama is not perfect but he is the only one the young people have been inspired to follow and that alone is sufficient reason for most people to support him. We know that many of you above are so erudite you lose the reason in the details and while this is a complex issue there are overweening considerations that must be looked at.
There is no doubt that Clinton will continue the policies of the Republicrats, after all she, Lieberman and McCain are great friends. They all think alike. You who right above can have that or a possibility, no matter how remote this system of imperfect government allows. Yes, they all lie and so do you all writing above. Are you all so pure above that you can not understand the expediency of politics?
For those who want purity support Kucinich a true man of honor and integrity!
RE: - The CBC explained to me that NAFTA is actually a GOOD thing for Americans
Did the CBC say it was a good thing for Canadians - like Harper infers? I doubt it. The truth is that it is a bad deal for the workers and children of both our countries, but that it was a better deal for Americans than it is for Canadians. You know that, according to NAFTA, Canada cannot reduce how much oil we export to the US without reducing by the same proportion how much oil we sell domestically. You must have heard the phrase "freezing to death in the dark"?
Trade deals are about trade - we let you sell us your goods if you let us sell you our goods. You have to have some sort of trade agreement or you can't export.
If you looked at the Jack Layton source, if focuses solely on why it is a bad deal for both countries - or is that not your impression of what he says. You tend to hear him talk about "fair trade" rather than "free trade" - the idea that trade agreements should be fair for the environment, fair for workers.
The CBC was talking about trade not being fair in that both sides are not (or do not seem to be) playing by the same rules (ie softwood lumber, mad cow etc) - stuff Canadians tend to complain about.
Those are the same links you posted earlier on this thread.
RE: - and therefor it is just FINE that Obama lied to Ohio voters (saying Hillary was right about renegotiating NAFTA, and that he too would renegotiate it) and then secretly told Canadian officials not to worry, it was only campaign rhetoric.
According to the first leak, BOTH Clinton and Obama were lying. And if you don't think that they have a memo on Clinton misrepresenting her position, like they do on Obama (the second leak), well OMG!
It all boils down to how much integrity and honesty you bestow on Stephen "Schmiergelder" Harper and his bunch. What do you think the odds are that Ian Brodie will be fired only to end up as a CEO in an American corporation!
This has nothing to do with how honest or dishonest Obama is - he may prove to be either - but whether you trust Harper's bunch.
RE: - and the statement from the Canadian Embassy in Chicago confirms that there was no difference between what Obama was saying in public and what Goolsbee said in private.
Note that this detraction of the original is not front page news. So how much does this "oops we made a mistake" mean in the bigger picture. Yeah, you are right, they did come out and say that the original statements were misleading and that Obama, in this case, was telling the truth.
I guess that we will all be moving over the the new NAFTA-gate thread.
Obama got caught in a lie and now they're trying to cover it up. It's not difficult to understand.
"No difference?" When Obama tells Ohio voters he will renegotiate NAFTA, and then his senior economic adviser privately assures Canadian officials they have nothing to worry about because it's only campaign rhetoric, that IS a difference -- an important difference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LtbLEKHsi0&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMpbpov-HcA
The other point, that I left out, is so aptly discusted by Sally (above). I just plain don't think Hilliary can win! She is the only one who can inject enthusiasm into the nearly dead Republicans. She is dispised not only by the right, but by a great many regular working folks. The progressive wing, upset (rightfully) over the war, just plain will not support her. I know that whatever would occur with official endorsements, a large sector of my Union (USWA) and other industrial unions, wouldn't support her due to her long-time support of "free trade" deals.
I know, it'll be a hard sell with Obama, also. But I do think he is sellable. Hilliary isn't!
Bob k--- If you are saying that we should vote for Hilliary instead of Obama, then I really thank you for suggesting how we can actually fight for real change. I don't agree, but you make a point, and you deserve kudos for dealing with reality. I've become so frustrated with folks on this blog that proclaim their anger at "the Democrats" without ever dealing with the reality of the electoral system we are stuck with and how we can use it to, at least, work for better conditions in which to fight for needed changes.
However, I do disagree with you. As I stated before, I do NOT see a review of voting records as the key factor here. The most important reason I'm backing Obama is that he is able to generate the massive outpouring of entusiastic new voters, who are coming out to vote for change. We should not underestimate that phenomenom. Every election for the past 4 decades, Democrats have promised and worked to bring out young, new and minority voters, and have consistantly failed. Obama is bringing them out.
Further, Obama's work as a community organizer in South Chicago with many displaced members of my union (USWA) have left a very positive mark on him. His statements about how "change must be org'd from below, from the people," are what can build the massive organized people's force nesecssary to counteract the huge corpoate pressures that will be brought to bear on whoever the next president is. Without this organized people's force, the corporate forces will always win. Beyond that, Obama's ties to the African American community and labor, as a base, greatly strengthen the hand of the organized people's movement in the battles after the election.
Hilliary's ties are solidly corporate, as is her approach to political issues. If she's the nominee, I'll support her, but only for the one issue of the Employee Free Choice Act (Gives worker's the right to join unions w/out represals or interference from the companies). Just to take her approach on health care, for example. She, w/Bill, tried to push thru a minor reform during the Clinton yrs, trying to placate the med corporations and avoid a fight. When that didn't work, she'll moved significantly to the right, adopting Romney/Nixon health care as her plan. Her "new" plan, for steelworkers who've lost jobs, health care, for example, under her plan, won't get health care but will get fined. We're worse off than before. On the mideast, likewise, she constantly moves to the right, attempting to placate the zionist, right wing. Her positions on that issue is actually worse than Bush's (at least he speaks of supporting a 2 state solution, which Hilliary still refuses to support). And then there's the Iraq war.....
I strongly feel that an Obama presidentcy, with strong Democratic majorities in both Houses offers the best situation possible at this time for the people's movement to actually win gains next year.
After what Hillary did with her fear tactic ad on answering the red phone at 3 a.m., I find it reprehensible that she even resorted to such a thing. She really lowered herself in my book to using the exact same method that Bush has used to stay in power - keep people down, keep them afraid, keep them wanting a strong, almost dictatorial figure instead of one that will work with the people to make this country great again.
She's no better than Bush in my book. I will not stand for a Clinton Restoration. This is not a country built on dynasties. We've had 8 years of Clintonism, 12 years of Bushes, now it's time to turn the page and start fresh with someone new. I'm going to have a mighty hard time supporting her if she wins the nomination, I can tell you that. My dislike for her grows every day and it frustrates me that she's won so handily in the big states like California, Ohio and Texas, which doesn't bode well for Obama's chances.
I'd hate to see him revert to fear tactics as well, but if that's what people respond to...... Maybe people aren't used to hoping. Maybe 8 years of Dubya has conditioned people to responding to fear. If that's the case, it's a crying shame. It's like living through the Cold War all over again, and I thought that era was firmly over at last.
I refuse to be afraid of some mysterious boogeyman across the sea wanting to blow us all to smithereens. I'm tired of hearing Bush mispronounce the word "nuclear" as "nu-kyu-ler" every time he alludes to the mysterious boogeyman over there wearing a turban and a beard. I'm tired of the the laughable suggestions that we all go out and get plastic sheeting and duct tape to protect us from a "nu-kyu-ler" attack. I'm tired of Washington being ruled by buffoons and incompetents that make us look like some kind of international pariah.
Time to turn the page. Time for change. Now. Before it's too late.
RE: - Reagan had that same mesmerizing effect on people. He used personal charm, marketing ("I'm optimistic about America") and duplicitous rhetoric to get people to vote against their own interests. Just like Obama is doing.
Admit that I am leary of the Jim Jones nature associated with both these men. However, to be a messenger of hope, Obama needs an untarnished image. What we should be asking is whether this tarnish is real or manufactured by the PMO - either because they considered Obama dangerous or because they wanted both the Dem candidates bloodied.
Usually, when a candidate sees blood, we expect them to go for the kill, but not over something like this which is very likely bogus. This is Hamdani-gate all over again with Hillary doing what is immediately popular, even if, as it later turned out, she was on live TV seeing imaginary people crossing borders. (Michael John Hamdani was a two bit forger who figured that he could avoid some jail time if he made a bogus claim that he helped five terrorists cross into the US - and Clinton said exactly where they crossed). This left me with the idea that Clinton would jump on any bandwagon that gives her a boost of popularity, even if it is apt to hurt the most vulnerable. Her words not only hurt Canada but Canadians - everyone economically and Muslim Canadians specifically.
RE: - Vaudree, U.S. trade representatives don't negotiate trade deals that strengthen protections for U.S. workers. That's ridiculous.
I have still not ruled out an NDP federal government and they will opt out of the agreement if they don't get better protections for workers and the environment in there - as well as getting rid of Chapter 11.
Secondly, Dorgan's amendment might have prevented bills related to worker protections which had nothing to do with trade. It would prevent anti-scab legislation and new laws limiting the ability of Wal-Mart to prevent the unionization of their stores.
That said, Dorgan made his amendment at a point in American history where worker protections were apt to be soon getting worse rather than better. A sunset clause would have been in order.
RE: - we're all still probably going to be stuck in this current permanent economic/political/moral crisis of "permanent war."
Seems that there are people who move in and out of the government and positions in the corporate Military industrial complex. After hearing the stench surrounding the dealings between former PM Mulroney and arms dealer Karkheinz Schreiber - and knowing what Cheney has been up to all these years - this interrelation is hard to untangle. This is why I initially supported Edwards who wanted to get the schmiergelder (smooch money) out of Washington.
RE: - Obama voted against Senator Dorgan's amendment that would have stopped future NAFTA-like trade deals.
It would not do anything about the SPP, which is trying to word "laws" in the form of regulations rather than legislation so that the deals don't have to go through Congress/Parliament. Dorgan's amendment only covers modifications to legislations rather than regulations.
I have already given you what was talked about on Monday on this subject, this is Tuesday:
Tuesday, March 4, 2008
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister's Office meddled in American politics by leaking information to the Associated Press. Yesterday, I asked the Prime Minister to fire the source of this interference, identified by Associated Press as Ian Brodie, the Prime Minister's chief of staff. The Prime Minister did not deny it and gave an insincere apology. Will the Prime Minister fire his chief of staff? Will he confirm that he was the source of this interference?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the Canadian embassy in Washington has already apologized for the leaked information. The government is trying to identify who was responsible for leaking the information to the public; it was not my chief of staff.
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, the NAFTA question is a very important question for working families and so is the question of leaks from the Prime Minister's Office that are apparently producing interference in the American election campaign and the Democratic primaries.
If the Prime Minister is telling us today that it was not his chief of staff, who was it? Is it possible that the Prime Minister himself knew about this information and authorized the leaks in order to discredit the campaign of Mr. Obama for president of the United States?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the leak of this particular document is--
next intervention previous intervention [Table of Contents]
Hon. Ralph Goodale: Sue him.
Hon. Lawrence Cannon: The only guy we're suing is you for your big mouth.
The Speaker: Order, order. The right hon. Prime Minister has the floor to answer a question. We will have some order. I cannot hear a word. The right hon. Prime Minister.
Right Hon. Stephen Harper: Mr. Speaker, the leak of this particular document is not only regrettable as the Canadian embassy in the United States has already said. It is completely unacceptable to this government and we will do our best to find out who did it.
What we are talking about here is a report that somebody in the consulate in Chicago wrote to their superior. There are literally thousands of documents like this written around the world by Canadian officials. It is ridiculous to think that the Prime Minister's Office even ever sees these documents.
*******************
Hon. Navdeep Bains (Mississauga—Brampton South, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, Canadians would not want American politicians interfering in our elections, so why is the Prime Minister's Office actively interfering in the American primaries? The Prime Minister's chief of staff, Ian Brodie, deliberately leaked false statements about Barack Obama. Trust has been breached. Damage has been done. Americans are enraged.
Things do not leak from the PMO by accident. Will the Prime Minister stand today, admit to deliberate meddling and ask his chief of staff to resign?
Hon. Maxime Bernier (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, it is far from the truth. The Canadian embassy in Washington yesterday issued a statement about this.
What I can tell the House and the hon. member is that the American people will decide on their future and this government will not interfere in U.S. politics.
Mr. Bernard Patry (Pierrefonds—Dollard, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of flagrant and pervasive political interference that the Prime Minister used to complain about. His chief of staff deliberately leaked the details of a confidential diplomatic conversation because he thought it would harm the Democrats and help his Republican friends.
Who will confide in any Canadian diplomat now, knowing that the information will be passed on according to the partisan political agenda of the Prime Minister and his chief of staff?
Is the American Republican cause so important that the Prime Minister is willing to sacrifice Canada's reputation internationally?
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?View=H&Parl=39&Ses=2&Language=E&Mode=...
If you notice how little "change" the candidate that former Daley machine media consultant David Axelrod marketed in the 2006 Massachusetts gubernatorial election, Deval Patrick, has brought to Massachusetts since January 2007, you'll probably realize that there's little likelihood that the candidate Axelrod is marketing in 2008 will actually really "change" the U.S. establishment's militaristic foreign policy in 2009 (if Obama is placed in the White House by his Goldman Sachs campaign contributors and his Big Media supporters). Until U.S. anti-war activists, from the grassroots, pressure the U.S. Establishment to make huge cuts in the Pentagon budget and shift to a pacifist foreign policy (similar to the more pacifist foreign policy that the Japanese Establishment began to shift towards after World War II), we're all still probably going to be stuck in this current permanent economic/political/moral crisis of "permanent war." The current moral crisis in the United States probably can't really be ended by just voting for a U.S. Establishment-backed "lesser evil" Democratic Party politician like U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee Member Obama.
vaudree, U.S. trade representatives don't negotiate trade deals that strengthen protections for U.S. workers. That's ridiculous.
unionguy,
I just think it's ironic than you support pro-war, anti-union Obama in the mistaken belief that he is the best hope for an anti-war, pro-union agenda. You apparently are too wedded to your hopes to actually look at Obama's voting record, which I have posted on this thread in summary fashion so that anyone who cares to may easily discover what the man really stands for.
Obama is much more of a Republican than is Clinton.
Obama voted for the Republicans' tort "reform" bill which prevents workers and their families from recovering damages when they are injured and killed by asbestos, oil spills and toxic chemicals. (No more Erin Brokovichs; no more class-action law suits against the PG&Es and the Exxons of the world.)
Obama voted for the Republicans' giant corporate-welfare Energy bill that gave billions of taxpayer money to the oil companies and nuclear power companies, and removed vital environmental and consumer protections.
Obama voted against Senator Dorgan's amendment that would have stopped future NAFTA-like trade deals.
Only one bill requiring withdrawal from Iraq came up for a vote in the Senate -- the Feingold-Reid amendment to safely redeploy all combat troops from Iraq by June 30, 2008 (with exceptions for al Qaeda operations, security and training) -- and Obama did not vote for it.
Sadly, Hillary Clinton voted the right way on each of these measures and no one seems to know about it. The media is pushing the idea that she is the corporate candidate and Obama is the savior, and the suckers are lapping it up.
You say there is a movement in the country wishing for real change. I agree. Too bad that movement is being manipulated into voting for the wrong candidate.
Reagan had that same mesmerizing effect on people. He used personal charm, marketing ("I'm optimistic about America") and duplicitous rhetoric to get people to vote against their own interests. Just like Obama is doing.
See above:
OBAMA'S PRO-WAR RECORD: chlamor March 4th, 2008 10:38 am
CANDIDATES' VOTING RECORDS COMPARED: Bob K. March 4th, 2008 3:53 am
Note: always a bit tipsy when son comes home from school (allergic to perfumes) - but feeling better now. Note2: I need a link.
RE: - that modifies or amends any law of the United States that provides safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices to United States businesses or workers
That makes more sense. Depends if you are going by the letter or the intent of that bill - and laws are interpreted by the former.
Let's look at the difference between Bush's and Arnold S's car emission standards. If a similar bill was signed in for environmental standards, it would mean that if you passed Bush's car emission bill, you could not amend it afterwards. If I am interpreting this correctly, it means that, once you passed Bush's emission standards, you would not be able to either increase or decrease these standards - you could not go back to the gas guzzling of the 1960's, but you would also not be able to later pass a bill that would change the car emission standards to those Arnold from California is proposing. Even negotiation pesticide standards with Canada and Mexico - ours tend to be a bit stricter than yours and Mexico's tend to be less strict than yours. If something like this existed concerning environmental standards in the US, it would prevent the US from adopting either Mexico's more lax pesticide standards or Canada's more stringent pesticide standards.
Back to labour standards. Dorgan's intention was to prevent government from weakening existing worker protections, but the bill/amendment could also be used legally to prevent one from strengthening existing worker protections. The pre-vote discussion would tell us whether the possibility that Dorgan's bill/amendment, as worded, could be used in the way I described was debated or whether there were other concerns with its wording.
If you vote for it, things can't get worse but they also can't get better.
RE: - I'll have to look at your links on the Obama NAFTA duplicity story. (CTV says their sources have confirmed it.)
CTV took it at face value - that the person who leaked it to them said it was legit, but that person has since back tracked. CTV ran with it and, once they put it out, everyone copied. I think that the ethics committee is planning to look into it
You may be interested in this from Jack Layton leader of the NDP (note that he does not mention McCain) - who seems to believe that both Obama and Clinton will be true to their word - or bent on doing everything in his power to insure that they are:
Layton to Obama, Clinton: You have an ally with the NDP on NAFTA
http://www.ndp.ca/page/6236
Bob Rae is the foreign affairs critic for the Liberals and he is not too happy with what Harper's bunch:
The Harper Conservatives Are Trying to Sink Obama
Senator Obama's campaign spends the day yesterday denying it, as does the Canadian Embassy. But CTV sticks to the story because "senior sources" in the PMO continue to confirm it. Tom Clark's original story also refers to the possibility of a McCain visit to Canada to reinforce his and Stephen Harper's love affair with free trade.
Leaks like this don't happen by chance, and they don't happen by accident. This is Republican International in action. The Harper government is so ideological and so tied to the Republicans that they will use any opportunity to throw a wrench into the Obama campaign.
http://www.bobrae.ca/en/The+Harper+Conservatives+Are+Trying+to+Sink+Obama
PMO stands for Prime Minister's Office. The follow-up "The cheapening of Canadian diplomacy" gets even nastier. Note that none of this proves that Obama is better or worse than Hillary.
RE: - Obama is populist president, it is his intention to go back to the people to help him get his plans through congress should he encounter difficulty and a deadlocked Congress as is the situation now.
It is hard to tell the difference between a grassroots movement and astroturfing. My honest guess is that there is a bit of both in Obama. He may not be as good as people think, but he's apt to be an improvement.
One has to wonder how much of Rae's outrage is because he wants to endear himself to Obama (in the likelihood that Obama becomes President) and how much of it is because he wants to ding the Conservatives. Rae's opponent in the by-election (in a few days) also supports Obama so there could be a bit of not wanting to lose votes to El-Farouk Khaki either.
unionguy---the best and most compelling arguments on this thread---I say the same thing---stop looking to the top for change. Grab your neighbor's or co-workers hand and say, we are the ones we've been waiting for. The best we can hope for on top, since we all know what it seems to take to get there, is someone who will get out of the way when the swell hits. Keep on posting, my man. And you have my heart being a Kucinich supporter---he's the best of the best if you ask me---he will do more than get out of the way---he takes your hand and walks beside you!
For the record FDR was no friend to a "people's movement" quite the opposite.
He was the savior for capital and worked in numerous ways to stop various people's movements at a time of social crisis when we were seeing very real grass roots efforts take hold.
Please dispute what I say and look into this.
Essentially FDR saved capitalism and big business and threw all meaningful social movements under the bus.
Bob---The point is not that "FDR changed his spots." It is that the real harbinger of social change is a movement of real people. An org'd movement of people can create a base for real change. FDR had a base (that was pushing him) and that was highly org'd, fighting for social change. That, in alliance with the New Deal administration, created the conditions needed to bring about dramatic social change.
Hilliary is tied tightly to corporate control and mcCain is a corporate agent. Obama, alone among those three, has become the focal point of folks, esp young people fighting for change. That enthusiastic spontaneous movement for change, combined with the strong, organized movement organized fby the labor movement, creates the basis for dramatic change. This, right now, is a time of real crisis for the system. There is the economic crisis, probably the worst since the Great Depression, combined with an extrememly unpopular and costly war, collapsing health care and educational systems, as well as growing crsises in the steel and auto industries. Along with this is the anger of the people after 7 years of ultra-right wing corporate rule. This is all combining to create the possibility for a real 'perfect storm' demanding economic and social change.
For those who are/consider themselves progressive, it becomes all the more important to be part of this uprising, to help bring more far-reaching ideas for change, to help build the organized people's movement. This can be one of the "once in a lifetime" (if even that) opportunity. If we miss this opportunity for the people's movement to build itself, win real gains, it may be a long, long time before the planets aline so well agins!
The people who think nothing will change if Obama is elected are extremely cynical for some and very skeptical with others and with good reason. He is presently running with many party hacks, and will be in the future controlled by some measure with party influence, as a result of an agenda that has existed in the USA since the robber baron era. Having said that knowing that I, as well as many of you writing here, has prompted the response to Young, are hoping that something will shake this country into a new direction that includes, ending the war, which is robbing every single person in the USA of wealth, health care and a reasonable life which is paramount. As well as other comforts promised by the industrial revolution but have yet to be forthcoming, without a price many cannot pay, that has been health, a life of ease, education and so many others used as the reasons the political machinery uses to get the public to do what the leaders want done.
If the average US citizen has some comforts it has come at a price that is questionable. The prices are generations of young people killed to support an ideology that was flawed from the outset. A work ethic that has the wage-earners in families in the USA, working two and three jobs to pay for their basic needs and forty million people living in poverty.
Moreover,the system supports another form of slavery. The people who think nothing will change if Obama is elected are extremely cynical in some and skeptical with others is with good reason. Yes Barbara, he is presently running with many party hacks, and will be in the future controlled by some measure with party influence, as a result of an agenda that has existed in the USA since the robber baron era. Having said that knowing that I, as well as many of you writing here and Barbara's article which has prompted the response, are hoping that something will shake this country into a new direction that includes, ending the war, which is robbing every single person in the USA of wealth, health care and a reasonable life is paramount. As well as other comforts promised by the industrial revolution but have yet to be forthcoming, without a price many cannot pay, health, a life of ease, education and so many others promised by the political machinery to get the public to do what the leaders want done.
If the average US citizen has some comforts it has come at a price that is questionable. The prices are generations of young people killed to support an ideology that was flawed from the outset. A work ethic that has the wage-earners in families in the USA, working two and three jobs to pay for their basic needs and forty million people living in poverty. The system supports another form of slavery.
All this based in a "free enterprise" system of government that allows corporations the right to, exploit their workers, go where they wish with government subsidy- thereby destroying communities which they were part- and the lives of people without any checks by government; also to pollute the population and communities with toxic waste leading to any number of health related issues. The public is left to pay for the medical attention caused by the pollution the corporations have caused, if they have the money to do so.
The "American Dream" has caused endless abuses to its population, with the false promise of fame and riches that are legend, supported by the Hollywood myth and media indoctrination. The claim that anyone can be president is manifold. However by some fluke of chance and hard work a man has come along that somehow defied conventional wisdom and possibility. He has made the inroads into populist thinking. The masses and particularly the young who want to be heard have embraced him.
Younge has given voice to the dissatisfaction felt by so many people in the USA and the world. Obama has offered change, and yes, we who have lived long enough, know it is necessary to be critical. Obama echoes many of us who know intrinsically, what Americans understand: The USA must move in another direction quickly for its citizens and the world! He knows, as we all do, human life hangs in the balance and America bears twenty five percent of that responsibility but the important thing is that the young people want him and not the hack policies of the past.
For those who are cynical and pessimistic, I support your views but there is not too much time left! OBama, Kucinich, and even Edwards plus a few others out there have some good ideas that are worth supporting and trying to get the public behind. Given the nature of the political machinery, this is not a simple task and will require a congress sympathetic to Obama's ideals. It is necessary not only to elect a new president that embraces change but a congress as well that also wants these changes. Obama is not a fool! He knows that this will be difficult, he admits as much.
Obama is populist president, it is his intention to go back to the people to help him get his plans through congress should he encounter difficulty and a deadlocked Congress as is the situation now. We need only look at the surveillance bill hung up for Bush because the House recessed before giving its approval. It was a way to allow it to expire before approval, knowing there would be a howl of public anger if the house moved to put it into law. but it will become law because there is no courage in congress but for a few.
The American people voted for a change with this Congress, yet to be realized because it is still tied to the "failed policies of the past" with people like Pelosi and others like her, or the Clintons who are part of that inner back-room type of political deal. Obama is a realist and knows the difficulties in front of him should he get the nomination and the presidency. Some say unstoppable this is a strange country?
The ideas that we all put out here are necessary for others who can convey them to the candidate. While it necessary to maintain a healthy pessimism, I think we must shelve cynicism for a while and not let it affect reality. Nothing is perfect; nothing will be perfect, including the nomination of Obama. But we must do what we can to make it work, as I am certain we all try to do. This is necessary to deal with the last possibility of change in the American way for both the US and global survival.
The war must end! The money spent on the war must be diverted to the rebuilding of the infrastructure of America, as well as to the social services that Americans want. The tax on the excessively rich as well as the diversion of policies away from everything in the world but American need must be looked at in a new way. It is important to help the world but not with military adventures, excepting those, which take place through the UN although, it too must change.
It is necessary to make America and the world a more environmentally aware place. The export of American technology can help its economy and also make it energy self-sufficient. It is not only America that must be assisted but also the world; Obama, I am happy to say, suggest those beliefs in his rhetoric. The USA lives in a world with other nations like China, whose environmental policy can sink us all.
These are the challenges that Obama has made reference to in his speeches. Yes, one can look at him and the entire process, with pessimism, as many do here quite rightly including myself. Yes, there is a possibility that Americans may be wronged once again by the political process. However, if we do not take this last time to try, by helping Obama if we are able, we may also give up one final chance to make the changes all the world needs. I believe as a fervent, committed environmentalist, working in communication, we have lost our last chance if we don't try.
It is good to hear people write their different points of view. Great thoughts are brought forward in dialog and exchange not presumption. But some who write here think they have the edge on intelligence and awareness. There are some here who believe that the democratic will of the people should be overturned by the presumption of power as in the super-delegate issue of the democratic party. This is raises the specter of large-scale defections toward Republican stupidity. Should this occur it would affect world security and the issue of climate change directly. These issues are dependent upon radical solutions, which include global economic changes. Defection of democrats and particularly the young people -who have hope and believe that change is necessary-risk an upheaval that could possibly tilt the election toward the Republican direction.
This reflects the basic problem of this so-called democracy of America where a win in the popular vote does not guarantee the change in direction that the Electoral College can make as we saw in 2004. The Democratic Super-delegate issue is a reflection of the absurd non-democratic American condition of the Electoral College. Should Barak Obama win the popular vote from America's Democratic caucuses, delegates and committed states prior to the convention I do not believe that he should accept second place as vice president, which seems to be the mood of the media controlled races and spin jockeys. I believe that he should maintain himself as the democratically designated elected leader of the Democratic Party.
Further, should he be forced to that position by the party of super delegate collapse, he should leave the Democratic Party and form a third party and run against both Hillary Clinton and John McCain. This is what every one who is really thinking in this country wants and thinks the USA very much needs. He has stated he has run because the time is now not in the future. The changes needed, are as he puts it, "right now", not in the future and the perils of environmental collapse are approaching so quickly that we do not have the luxury of another eight years of "business as usual", which would be the Clinton way, before he can claim the office of president.
He is a populist candidate that has offered hope! He should continue that platform with the courage to take the courageous steps necessary if the standard-bearer position is denied to him to effect party change and changes in American direction. He should do it, if necessary, not in the Democratic Party but by creating a third party, should the first spot be denied him. Should the party be given to Clinton, we all lose and the possibility of change goes down with him. Should he follow the Clinton policy as suggested by some pundits we all fail. But if he takes half the country with him to a third party we have a chance. He believes that the failed policies of the past exist within the entrenched two party systems in congress. I believe the only way of preventing another move to those failed policies is not to allow Hillary Clinton to win. But we all know that this idea in this system is a fantasy.
Obama's public denial of allowing super-delegates to determine the election would be a way of circumventing being moved to second place. I heard one of the super-delegates speaking from Georgia. He was black and under examination by the press, it was clear that the direction of the super delegates would be to overturn the national-will and cause the disaffection of the youth of America. No one has a right to do that since the older generation through "the failed policies of the past" has put us in the present circumstances of possibly destroying their future and their life.
In the final analysis this country did not rise to the level of intelligence and courage by electing George Bush to office for two terms and I doubt that it will by choosing Hillary Clinton to lead. Should this occur, it will lead to chaos and the disaffection of the youth and could possibly elect John McCain and a continuation of war for another hundred years; no just thirty because that is the time we have left to make the radical shift in global politics and economics if we are to deal with global climate change.
vaudree,
Dorgan's amendment text: "None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available by this Act may be used to negotiate or enter into a trade agreement that modifies or amends any law of the United States that provides safeguards from unfair foreign trade practices to United States businesses or workers, including (1) imposition of countervailing and antidumping duties (2) protection from unfair methods of competition and unfair acts in the importation of articles (3) relief from injury caused by import competition (4) relief from unfair trade practices or (5) national security import restrictions."
I have the entire pre-vote discussion, but can't post it all here. You'll have to go to the Senate website and look for S.Amdt. 1665 to the 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill, H.R. 2862. The "debate" consisted of only Dorgan and Grassley, and took place over a three day period. I think other issues (like Hurricane Katrina) were also on the agenda during that period.
I'll have to look at your links on the Obama NAFTA duplicity story. (CTV says their sources have confirmed it.)
But, "free trade" isn't the only issue on which Obama appears duplicitous. Have you seen my CANDIDATES' VOTING RECORDS COMPARED post, above?
Bob K, do you have a transcript as to the bill and the prevote discussion? I can't really comment otherwise. All I have is a very superficial "anyone who voted the same way as McCain is not to be trusted" observation - but even the NDP have sided with the Conservatives against the Liberals on occasion. It does sound bad for Obama though since Dorgan was for it.
Despite the title, most of this is on Aljazeera analyzing the Obama "Yes We Can" video (Avi Lewis is Naomi Klein's husband):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UQG2uYbLk0
RE: - Case in point: Have you seen the recent news reports about Obama telling Ohio voters he would renegotiate NAFTA, while his senior economic adviser was privately assuring Canadian officials not to worry, because it was only campaign rhetoric? Watch the reports on Canadian TV, below.
In this case, you've been had Bob K, both those youtube videos you quoted came from CTV who were fed what turns out to be misleading information from Harper's bunch. See Canadian memo recounts Obama adviser's meeting (my first post on this thread) for the original source - contains a write up and both your youtube videos. You should wonder why they leaked it to CTV rather than the CBC - the CBC would have checked it out first before airing it.
They were talking about it on Politcs yesterday (click on "Monday") and, if you don't want to watch the whole thing, move the needle to 36:30 to get the story. I do wonder why the Obama camp is asking questions that they already know the answers to, though:
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/
The Reagan/Mulroney years were not good for either of our countries and both knew a bit about acting and theatrics over substance.
RE: - Some people here are attacking Obama as not progressive enough. If he had the same platform as Kucinich, he would also have no chance in hell of being elected, even if he is a better speaker and taller.
Well why not? Do they consider Kucinich so threatening that they don't want people to hear him speak? If not, then why not include him in all the Dem debates just like Ron Paul was included in the Repug debates before he opted out of the race!
Son wants computer.
vaudree,
I should also mention that the vote on trade deals I referenced was #5, the Dorgan amendment. Senator Dorgan is the Senate's most passionate anti-NAFTA crusader. See his book, "Take This Job and Ship It." On the Dorgan amendment, Clinton voted yes; Obama and McCain voted no.
vaudree, NV stands for "Not Voting." I should have said that. "Not Voting" is how a vote is officially recorded when a Senator declines to cast a vote. On the big issues such as those I listed, there are typically between 0 and 2 Senators who don't vote. In some cases Senators have been in the hospital (or in a coma), but more often they don't vote in order to preserve their claim to being on whichever side of the issue is politically expedient.
unionguy,
I take your point about FDR running as a moderate and then acting as a Progressive. It's possible for a candidate to change his stripes. However, the circumstances then -- the Great Depression and WWII -- were vastly different than today's circumstances. Your analogy to Lincoln is a stretch. The Civil War? Come on.
My reference to Reagan is more on point. Reagan was no Progressive, that's for sure. But neither is Obama. Check Obama's voting record in the Senate (my March 4th, 2008 3:53am post, above). He voted for profits over people almost every time.
I also disagree that Reagan had no "movement" behind him. He had the "Reagan Revolution." To this day he is revered, even by working class people he back stabbed. Never underestimate the power of marketing and duplicitous campaign rhetoric.
Case in point: Have you seen the recent news reports about Obama telling Ohio voters he would renegotiate NAFTA, while his senior economic adviser was privately assuring Canadian officials not to worry, because it was only campaign rhetoric?
Watch the reports on Canadian TV, below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LtbLEKHsi0&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMpbpov-HcA
RE: - Right now, Clinton and Obama are promising to fix NAFTA and other trade deals. But, how did they vote on that issue when they had the chance?
What does NV stand for? Did Obama abstain or was he not there in the Senate at the time to vote? I want to know a bit more on why each voted the way they did - whether they figured the bill went too far or not far enough.
RE: - LOL, Vaudree, but McCain won't be doing his own slashing and bashing — in the well-worn pattern established by Morning-in-America Reagan, his surrogates in the Right Wing Noise Machine will keep a steady stream of political sewage pouring on the Dems while St. John the Hero scathingly derides and humbly apologizes for it
Of course! Even Obama is doing that. But they would not put out something against Clinton that would remind people that the lobbyist looks like a twin sister of McCain's wife.
It happens in Canada too - most notably when Gary Filmon (former Manitoba Premier) tried to explain how, during a debate, his inner circle could be involved in vote rigging and he knew nothing about it. He used the example of two people who believed him - one who was cheated by a business partner and another who, as Filmon related said (while staring into the camera) "my wife cheated on me and everyone knew about it but I didn't" - which created an image in my mind of Janice Filmon being a very clumsy Margaret Trudeau.
It backfired because people figured that either Filmon was lying or he was too oblivious to make a good leader.
RE: - Rush Limbaugh encourages Republicans to go out and vote for Hillary as the candidate they would chose to run against. He mentions how she is "bloodying Obama".
There is a grain of truth that the longer the race between Obama and Clinton goes on that the more bloodied the eventual winner will be. Thus, it is best for the Repugs to make sure that Today's results do not determine who stands for the Dems. It is their interest to keep the war going.
RE: - And I have one word for you regarding the Clintons: NAFTA. I'm from Ohio and that's a dirty word in this state that has lost so many good paying manufacturing jobs.
Which is why Harper's bunch leaked the memo to CTV when they did. Deal with nonNAFTA stuff next time.
RE: - Now I'm not saying Obama's a liar or charlatan, but in terms of appearence, I can understand if some people think this about him.
I am suspicious about the cult surrounding Obama and his willingness to become like a cult leader. Obama seems to introduce his policy in trickles so it is hard to know what one is voting for - though that is changing. But, on the other hand, I respect Jack Layton and Jack Layton seems to believe him on NAFTA:
Monday, March 3, 2008
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, since 1989 working families have been increasingly squeezed financially and that is why more and more leaders are saying that we have to amend NAFTA in order to fix this problem.
However, Canadians have become increasingly alarmed at reports that the Prime Minister's Office has been interfering in the democratic primaries with false accusations, trying to silence Barack Obama who simply wants to amend NAFTA. It is completely unacceptable for that kind of interference to be taking place.
Will the Prime Minister fire the source of the interference? Will he fire his chief of staff?
******
Hon. Jack Layton (Toronto—Danforth, NDP): Mr. Speaker, I wish the Prime Minister would just watch it and not try to interfere with what is going on in the election on the other side of the border.
In fact, he should show some leadership for the working families of this country. Instead of interfering with the U.S. election, he should be grabbing hold of the opportunity to amend NAFTA to create stronger workers' rights, protect our environment, and protect our industries.
I ask the Prime Minister, instead of sticking his neck out for the Republican Party down there, why does he not stand up for working families right here?
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?View=H&Parl=39&Ses=2&Language=E&Mode=...
Some people here are attacking Obama as not progressive enough. If he had the same platform as Kucinich, he would also have no chance in hell of being elected, even if he is a better speaker and taller. :-)
The massive Ship of State turns slowly. The country has been moving to the right for decades, and if you want to counter that, put your money where your mouth is. Donate to Common Dreams (there is a fund drive right now). Support The Real News. There are hundreds of worthy organizations that need your help. If you want a more progressive President, you have to build the foundation way in advance, you can't just complain that the Democratic nominee sucks (or, you could move to the European Union).
Obama is better than Hillary, and better than McCain. That's as good as it will get for 2008, no use crying over it. And maybe there really is greatness inside the man, President's have surprised in the past. It really is a turning point for America, perhaps Obama will rise to the occasion.
President Obama. The world will be very different in 2016, but I think 8 years of President Obama will be much, much better than the previous 8 years. Can the country make some good progress in these 8 years ? Yes we can.
Our job as active citizens concerned about the welfare and future of our nation is only just begun with getting a new breed of politician into the White House.
I'm voting for Obama because frankly, I believe he will be the most original and most persuasive person for the job compared to our other "choices".
There is no doubt in my mind that the well-established Republican slime machine will still be active in the background, manufacturing the same kind of lies and distortions they pumped out through the entire Clinton presidency, and manufacturing the same lies and distortions they pumped out in support of Bush's idiotic policies.
We cannot settle for just winning the White House... we have to systematically rid ourselves of anyone in Congress who spits on the Constitution, and systematically discredit the Limbaughs, Coulters, Hannitys, Krauthammers, Podhoretzes, Kristols, O'Reillys and Robertsons of the American media.
One of the most damaging things that has happened to our nation is when our government let people like Rupert Murdoch, Sun Yung Moon and a gaggle of fanatic evangelists buy up our media and consolidate it into a neo-con propaganda machine.
It is ironic that what has BECOME the mainstream media under these people, is STILL yammering about "liberal bias" in the media!
Face it folks, regardless of who gets elected President, these media clowns will still be working AGAINST the well-being of the general American population until we drive them out.
unionguy,
Why would you think "Obama [offers] the best possibility to have a situation in which the wide, labor-led people's movement is empowered to fight for national health care, ending the war, spending for education and housing, jobs programs for 'green' jobs?"
Obama's actual voting record is pro-war, pro free trade, pro corporate welfare, anti environmental protection, anti public health, and pro profits-over-people. See my March 4th, 2008 3:53am post, above.
For chapter and verse on Obama's pro-war voting record, see chlamor's March 4th, 2008 10:38am post, above.
Regarding your "It is the movement, not the individual, that is the ultimate determining factor" statement, I'm sure you remember the last time the voters arose in such a movement: it was in support of that charming optimist from California who told us in 1982 it was "Morning in America" again --- Ronald Reagan. That charismatic candidate didn't do much for unions, did he? (In fact, he was the worst enemy unions had know in decades.) Check Obama's record, and don't buy the same marketing hype again.
Bob K---Reagan hardly was a progressive, nor did he have a wide people's movement of any kind below him. He was a total creation of the corporations, who were able to use their media to elect him.
The two examples that I DID cite, however, did fit the criteria that I spoke of---FDR and Lincoln. They were "moderate" candidates, who ran "moderate" campaigns, but ran campaigns for 'change' at a time that it was demanded by the American people. Even more importantly, there were very active, strong people's movements under them fighting for change. Again, there are no guarantees of victory here, but it created the possibility of real positive change.
The election of a congress, led by progressive Democrats, and an Obama presidency, obviously creates a much, much, much better climate in which to fight for natl health care, green jobs, peace, etc, than a right-wing McCain adminstration. Do you think that we'd have won social security or labor's right to organize under a Hoover administration, instead of FDR? The answer is obvious. If Obama is elected, it will be primarially due to the activity of the wide people's movement, one which he has been part of and which he is relying on for support. This obviously puts us in a better situation!
Mostly the discussion here has absolutely NO relationship to the article we are supposedly discussing. Further, I would suggest that folks should study our own history, how major, revolutionary changes have occurred in our (and other) nations.
First of all, the tremendous, massive volume of 'stuff' about who voted how, what who said when, is basically irrelevant. As much as we've been taught to believe that change comes about due to the "Great Man (or Woman)" who developed great ideas, is elected and enforces their well on congress, the nation is a false view. It always has been.
Great changes have come about when the American people are in motion, fighting for change. Those who've been elected as "leaders," have been "great" only to the level at which they've been willing to take their lead from the people's movement.
That was most assuredly so for both of our nation's greatly presidentcies; FDR and Lincoln. Neither was elected as a "progressive," or a "revolutionary." Roosevelt ran for President as a conservative democrat. He was Govenor of New York, and his first presidential campaign based only on minor changes in tariff policy. The difference was made by the fact, on the ground, by the existence of the wide, labor-based people's movement fighting for jobs, right to organize, social security, unemployment comp, etc. FDR saw the people's movement as the counter weight to the huge corporate pressures he also faced. The result was that the massive people's movement, in alliance with the FDR New Deal administration made tremendous progressive changes in our nation.
Lincoln was elected as a "moderate," stating that he'd only "restrict the expansion of slavery," leaving it alone where it existed. Many in the Abolishtionist Movement didn't support him, even trying to run a "better" "more progressive" candidate (John C Fremont) who was for eliminating slavery immediately. Fremont is now a historic footnote, but the fact that Lincoln took his support from the wide people's movement, resulted in massive positive social changes in our nation.
It is the movement, not the individual, that is the ultimate determining factor. It doesn't guarantee victory, but the absence of the movement guarantees no movement forward.
At this time in our history, we know certain things, amoung those that a Democrat (Obama or Clinton) or Republican (probably McCain) WILL, ABSOLUTELY, be the next president. As well, the houses of congress WILL BE made up of a Democratic or Republican majority. Further, looking at the seniortiy of those in congress, it is clear that if we elect a Democratic majority, it will be progressive Democrats, not DLC types, who are in line to run literally ALL congressional committees. If McCain is elected, we do KNOW that all progress will be blocked. Obama, with the wide enthusiastic momvement below him, offers the best possibiltiy to have a situation in which the wide, labor-led people's movement is empowered to fight for national health care, ending the war, spending for education and housing, jobs programs for 'green' jobs, and actually be able to win!
It will certainly require a hell of a fight in either case, but the later example creates BETTER CONDITIONS FOR US TO WIN!!
Please, I'll ask just one question. For the sake of a more intelligent discussion, don't just spread cynisism, let us know what you actually do think can be done to change our nation, don't just throw a fit and say that you'll sit in the corner until the elections are over.
Of course not Vern.
C'mon this has become so sadly formulaic I actually wrote your post for you right after my own.
Not kidding Vern.
It goes like this:
1) Obama article surfaces that is pro-Obama or lukewarm in support of his candidacy with some stipulations.
2) Various folk respond with critique of Obama, his followers, his handlers, his voting record, his policy positions, the American political system at large etc...
3) Defenders of Obama say "so are you saying we should support Clinton?" when in fact no such thing has been said or even hinted at conveniently ignoring what has been said about Obama and shifting the discussion away from the critique and the original article.
4) Discussion deteriorates into pro-forma absurdity of current American political version of manufactured consent with all meaningful solutions shoved back into the closet.
5) Rinse-Repeat through election cycles from here to eternity while the American people get screwed every day by both factions of the ruling class and the Iraqi people get slaughtered by both factions of the ruling class with the consent of the American people who can't seem to look outside what they know to be a violent fraud.
Of course if the article was about Clinton I would've posted her pro-war record but Vern don't forget when it comes to the actual record on the Iraq war Clinton and Obama have the EXACT same record with one exception that being the promotion/assignment of some General, Casey I think?, so I'm not sure how it is people have been so easily duped with Obama though I have a few theories.
Of course Clinton is worse than Obama by a few degrees and that matters but only barely. Is that how low the bar has been set Vern? Well we both know the answer is yes and our difference may be that I won't validate either of the Dem appointees and thusly sanction their ensuing criminal acts which you know damn well are going to be enacted through their clearly stated policies of continued US aggression around the world.
Tinoire is doing so-so as she is very down about the latest Israeli massacre as she is getting daily first-hand reports and pictures. I've yet to hear either Obama or Hillary speak out against these unspeakable crimes.
And please Vern let's have conversation that admits to the pernicious requirements of such federal luminaries as Hillary and Obama that avoids this stultifying binary programming.
Solidarity.
Here's were I do occasional blogging and if you wish to get in touch send a note:
http://chlamor-deepintheheartofnowhere.blogspot.com/
So Chlamor, you're telling us that Clinton is the alternative?
Like Clinton's foul tactics ( and interstingly enough the moment that revealed her petty little jealous vindictive character was the mocking of Obama's message of hope that she attempts to pass off as comical)from the Right to bring down Obama as the only way to promote herself, what is your course from the Left to deal with the current situation? It sort of goes like this--Your lack of recognition of Clinton as the greater threat enables Clinton while she enables the Right.
So, how goes it Chlamor? How is Tinoire?
As long as folks have little in the way of analysing the current power structures and come to at least a general understanding of what is asked of "this movement" there can be little in the way of meaningful, substantive change and from the looks of things everywhere one turns the vast majority of folks who so ardently support Obama haven't even taken the first step in analyzing the political and economic system that controls American society. This is self-evident in the very fact that they support someone who has proven his bona-fides to the ruling class and is therefore an acceptable candidate to further their agenda.
Obama will maintain the pretense and legions of his followers are going to be disappointed with no right to be so as it was they who did not do their homework and have supported that which they know little about.
Obama will be supporting Corporate Capitalism every step of the way. He has said so at length and quite clearly. Why is this so difficult to understand?
OBAMA:
A PRO-WAR RECORD
Then there's the matter of his actual policy and political record. If Obama is such (as many "progressives" seem to need to believe) an "antiwar" candidate, why has he offered so much substantive policy support to the criminal occupation and the broader imperial "war on [and of] terror" of which Bush says O.I.F. is a part?
Here are some highlights from a summary of Obama's U.S. Senate voting record:
"1/26/05: Obama voted to confirm Condoleezza Rice for Secretary of State. Rice was largely responsible…for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent victims in unnecessary wars...Roll call 2"
"2/01/05: Obama was part of a unanimous consent agreement not to filibuster the nomination of lawless torturer Alberto Gonzales as chief law enforcement officer of the United States (U.S. Attorney General)."
"2/15/05: Obama voted to confirm Michael Chertoff, a proponent of water-board torture...[and a] man behind the round-up of thousands of people of Middle-Eastern descent following 9/11. By Roll call 10."
"4/21/05: Obama voted to make John 'Death Squad' Negroponte the National Intelligence Director. In Central America, John Negroponte was connected to death squads that murdered nuns and children in sizable quantities. He is suspected of instigating death squads while in Iraq, resulting in the current insurgency. Instead of calling for Negroponte's prosecution, Obama rewarded him by making him National Intelligence Director. Roll call 107"
"4/21/05: Obama voted for HR 1268, war appropriations in the amount of approximately $81 billion. Much of this funding went to Blackwater USA and Halliburton and disappeared. Roll call 109 [W FOR PRO-WAR VOTE]"
"7/01/05: Obama voted for H.R. 2419, termed 'The Nuclear Bill' by environmental and peace groups. It provided billions for nuclear weapons activities, including nuclear bunker buster bombs. It contains full funding for Yucca Mountain, a threat to food and water in California, Nevada, Arizona and states across America. Roll call 172 [W]."
"9/26/05 & 9/28/05: Obama failed and refused to place a hold on the nomination of John Roberts, a supporter of permanent detention of Americans without trial, and of torture and military tribunals for Guantanamo detainees."
"10/07/05: Obama voted for HR2863, which appropriated $50 billion in new money for war. Roll call 2 [W]."
"11/15/05: Obama voted for continued war, again. Roll call 326 was the vote on the Defense Authorization Act (S1042) which kept the war and war profiteering alive, restricted the right of habeas corpus and encouraged terrorism. Pursuant to his pattern, Obama voted for this. [W]."
"12/21/05: Obama confirmed his support for war by voting for the Conference Report on the Defense Appropriations Act (HR 2863), Roll call 366, which provided more funding to Halliburton and Blackwater. [W]"
"5/2/06: Obama voted for money for more war by voting for cloture on HR 4939, the emergency funding to Halliburton, Blackwater and other war profiteers. Roll call 103 [W]."
"5/4/06: Obama, again, voted to adopt HR4939: emergency funding to war profiteers. Roll call 112 [W]."
"6/13/06: Obama voted to commend the armed services for a bombing that killed innocent people and children and reportedly resulted in the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi… Michael Berg, whose son was reportedly killed by al-Zarqawi, condemned the attack and expressed sorrow over the innocent people and children killed in the bombing that Obama commended. Roll call 168 [W]."
"6/15/06: Obama voted for the conference report on HR4939, a bill that gave warmongers more money to continue the killing and massacre of innocent people in Iraq and allows profiteers to collect more money for scamming the people of New Orleans. Roll Call 171 [W]."
"6/15/06: Obama, again, opposed withdrawal of the troops, by voting to table a motion to table a proposed amendment would have required the withdrawal of US. Armed Forces from Iraq and would have urged the convening of an Iraq summit (S Amdt 4269 to S. Amdt 4265 to S2766) Roll Call 174 [W]"
"6/22/06: Obama voted against withdrawing the troops by opposing the Kerry Amendment (S. Amdt 4442 to S 2766) to the National Defense Authorization Act. The amendment, which was rejected, would have brought our troops home. Roll Call 181 [W]"
"6/22/06: Obama voted for cloture (the last effective chance to stop) on the National Defense Authorization Act (S 2766), which provided massive amounts of funding to defense contractors to continue the killing in Iraq. Roll Call 183[W]."
"6/22/06: Obama again voted for continued war by voting to pass the National Defense Authorization Act (S 2766) for continued war funding. Roll Call 186 [W].
9/7/06: Obama voted to give more money to profiteers for more war (H..R. 5631). Roll Call 239 [W]"
"9/29/06: Obama voted vote for the conference report on more funding for war, HR 5631. Roll Call 261 [W]."
"11/16/06: Obama voted for nuclear proliferation in voting to pass HR 5682, a bill to exempt the United States-India Nuclear Proliferation Act from requirements of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954. Roll Call 270 [W]."
"12/06/06: Obama voted to confirm pro-war Robert M. Gates to be Secretary of Defense. Gates is a supporter of Bush's policies of pre-emptive war and conquest of foreign countries. Roll Call 272 [W]"
"Obama's voting record in 2007 establishes that he continues to be pro-war. On March 28, 2007 and March 29th, 2007, he voted for cloture and passage of a bill designed to give Bush over $120 billion to continue the occupation for years to come (with a suspendable time table) and inclusive of funding that could be used to launch a war with Iran. Roll calls 117 and 126 [W]...Obama's record shows a minimum of 20 major pro-war votes…"
Obama's intra-Democratic political record also defies those who insistent on wrapping him in an antiwar flag. In 2006 Obama lent his celebrity and political finance assistance to neoconservative war Senator Joe Lieberman's ("D"-Connecticut) struggle against the Democratic antiwar insurgent Ned Lamont. Obama supported other mainstream Democrats fighting genuinely antiwar progressives in primary races, collaborating with Democratic muscle man Rahm Emannuel's campaign to marginalize "peaceniks" within the party (see Sirota 2006, Silverstein 2006 and Cockburn 2006).
In a November 2005 speech to the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR), Obama rejected Rep. John Murtha's (D-Pa.) call for a rapid redeployment and any notion of a timetable for withdrawal. Obama advocated "a pragmatic solution to the real war we're facing in Iraq" and made repeated references to the need to "defeat" the "insurgency." This language meant continuation of the war (Ford and Gamble 2005).
Earlier that same year, Obama shamefully distanced himself from his fellow Senator Dick Durbin's (D-IL) forthright criticism of U.S. torture practices at Guantanamo (Street 2005; Cockburn 2006).
And he still refuses to foreswear the use of first-strike nuclear weapons against Iran (Gerson 2007). As Kucinich pointed out during last night's debate, this is what Obama's comment that "all options are on the table" in regard to Iran really boils down to: the potential first black U.S. President is willing to seriously consider the launching of a thermonuclear attack on that country. Debate participant Mike Gravel (a left former U.S. Senator of Alaska)was thinking of that horrific possibility when said the following about the leading Democratic candidates (Obama included of course) last night: "these people scare me."
More here:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12687
My point is simple: based on their actual voting records on twelve important issues — including the biggest issues of the day — Clinton voted the Progressive way eight times, Obama only four times, and McCain only one time.
That may be but if you read one of my earlier posts on this thread, I said:
Hillary, on the other hand, is listed as one of the Ten Most Corrupt Politicans in 2007 by the National Ledger. Do you want someone with that kind of reputation leading our country?
So.....she may have a progressive voting record, but she's also a very corrupt politician. I'm sorry, but I just can't completely trust her based on her record of corruption. The Clintons have a long history of shady dealings and that has tainted my opinion of them. And I have one word for you regarding the Clintons: NAFTA. I'm from Ohio and that's a dirty word in this state that has lost so many good paying manufacturing jobs.
RSJ, of course your vote comparisons are meaningless because they don't compare Obama's votes to the other two candidates' votes. You don't include Obama at all. Why don't you tell us about Obama's votes, if you support Obama? Is it because his votes don't match his image? I think so.
My point is simple: based on their actual voting records on twelve important issues -- including the biggest issues of the day -- Clinton voted the Progressive way eight times, Obama only four times, and McCain only one time.
Your response is precisely why it is so shameful that you and the rest who should know better are so agog abt Obama. He offers no more hope than a contestant on American Idol. It is the enthusiasm that people are drawn too, it is not issues, not ideas on how things might be improved, etc. There have been serious alternative presented, but the DC elites, and MSM, don't like actual alternatives. They'd rather a chum of theirs played the role.
Will you be there to hold the hands of all these believers when it turns out Obama is nothing more than another cypher? Who is going to explain to them then that believing isn't organizing.
You imply, Deran, that we Obama supporters are just wowed by his looks or his oratory or whatever and that we're not at all looking at the substance of what he has to offer. Shame on you. We're not just supporting him out of some misplaced American Idol fanatacism. Why is it that he's been able to muster so much support from such a broad coalition of people? Surely you don't think that they're all just fawning over him like some kind of smitten teenage girl over her latest crush?
There are some of us who have carefully examined, analyzed and thought through carefully who we're going to vote for based on issues and our personal stands on those things. While he isn't 100% perfect, he is better than the alternative, Hillary or McCain. You may not like Obama, Deran, and you are perfectly entitled to your position on that. But please quit deriding those of us who are supporting him as being just shallow fanatics fawning over our latest American Idol crush. Your cynicism is part of the reason our country finds itself in such a bad way and those of you who spend more time pooh-poohing every candidate that comes down the pike instead of mobilizing and organizing like some of us are to support our candidates are never going to accomplish anything but a bitter harvest.
And quite frankly, I've had enough of that to last a lifetime, thank you very much. I want a change of direction for our country and I am willing, perfectly willing, to work my butt off for it if it means electing the candidate I have chosen to support.
Thanks for continuing the trend.
At least you will be guaranteed to have plenty to complain about on a daily basis as things continue to spiral.
Yep, plenty to post about.
re: RSJ (6:55 am)
"Obama voted to fund the troops, as did Hillary, and not the war per se —"
This claim is just not credible.
Obama's intelligence deserves more respect. The Senate did not face some sort of wishful partitioning of monies when it came time to vote.
"Some conservative Dems were also on the side of Bush so, without a united front and enough votes, any attempt to stop the war through defunding was destined to fail, and leave egg on the faces of those who voted to cut Bush's war bucks."
If I understand you correctly, avoiding egg on one's face is more important than doing the admittedly right thing in a life-and-death question.
"... the kind of political pragmatism that will make you purists faint from the vapors..."
One man's "purist" gesture is another man's basic principle. I don't see how it gets much more basic than life and death.
Your defense of Obama makes him seem gullible and unprincipled. Also, the swipe at RichM was uncalled for.
Dems = Bush-enablers
Dems = Complicit
That's why vote
NEITHER OF THE TWO EVILS
Some of us have not been asleep at the wheel through the DLC monopolization of the Democratic party which brought us NAFTA, deregulation of the media and welfare reform. We have witnessed a passive and compliant Democratic party sell our country out and enable the most damaging administration in our times. We watch now as Republicans, seemingly demoralized, sit back with pleasure and watch Clinton run a negative, deceptive and unethical campaign, referring to it as a "soap opera" which benefits them the most. Rush Limbaugh encourages Republicans to go out and vote for Hillary as the candidate they would chose to run against. He mentions how she is "bloodying Obama". Pundits shrug off her fear-mongering tv ad saturating the airwaves like the Dean scream as typical of any campaign. But isn't she a Democrat? Why is she fueling the Right-wing battle front by triangulating on the Right's pattern of fear and hawkish sabre-rattling? She will stop at nothing even if it means damaging the Democratic party case for her own selfish ambition–and the Clinton DLC has monopolized the party for far too long making it irrelevant and ineffective. First things first. In order for the Democratic party to be a force to be reckoned with, the Clintons have to go–and they deserve to be run out of town on a rail.
First things first. Clinton embraces all the Right's talking points and strategies, but I ask you, can you imagine Obama running the scary ad? Clinton supports the worst extremes of Zionist Israel, Obama differentiates between support of Israel and allegiance to Likud. Obama would talk to our "enemies", Clinton shares Bush's approach. Clinton is willing to destroy the potential Democratic alternative for her own selfish entitlement via jaded calculation. This is a no-brainer folks--there is opportunity here and there is the potential for great loss. Progressives who now would enable Clinton by not rallying against Clinton to lose are as destructive to the future as Republicans who support Clinton to win.
First things first. Stomp Clinton.
Well, if it isn't Bob K back with another specious 'progressive' test. Bob, just for you I'm cross-posting this:
Here, let me give you a straight up comparison of two senators' records in my own version of your 'Test of Knowledge':
1. Jordan Free Trade Agreement, Senate voice vote, Sept. 24, 2001: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
2. US-Vietnam Bilateral Trade Agreement, House Joint Resolution 51, Oct. 3, 2001: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
3. Chile Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #319, July 31, 2003: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
4. Singapore Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #318, July 31, 2003: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
5. Australian Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #156, July 15, 2004: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
6. Morocco Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #159 on July 21, 2004: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
7. Bahrain Free Trade Agreement, Senate vote, Dec. 13, 2005: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
8. Oman Free Trade Agreement, Senate roll call vote #250, Sept. 19, 2006: McCain and Clinton both voted for it.
Why, it appears 'more-progressive-than-Obama' Hillary Clinton and conservative Republican John McCain vote exactly the same on trade issues, doesn't it? But it's false and meaningless -- just as you did, Bob, I cherry-picked votes to make Clinton look as if she was as conservative as McCain when, in fact, it's much more complicated than that. You trying to pass off your 'test' as a gauge of someone's 'progressivism' is as ludicrous as my example above.
SallyUUKent, you've summed it up well. I've met many Obama voters, young and old, and I have yet to encounter the awful stereotypes presented here of vacuous mesmerized 'Obamamaniacs' who are voting for him just because he says 'hope' or 'change' or that they like the way he looks. I have no doubt a few exist, but I haven't seen them.
BTW, none other than Rush Limbaugh has instructed his dwindling army of Dittoheads to vote for Hillary in the primary, ostensibly because he wants to 'bloody' Obama before the general election, but I think his hidden agenda -- and it's not exactly a big secret -- is that the GOP actually wants to run against Clinton. 16 years of right-wing attacks have left her with about half the public who say they won't vote for her. I meet nearly one person a week who'll vote for Obama, but never Clinton. That's something she can't reverse before November -- there are people out there who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton if she sprouted wings and a halo. It may not be fair, but it's a fact.
Femme Fatale wrote: "Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption."
Really, Femme Fatale. Why didn't you quote a source for that outburst? I follow the news pretty closely and this is the first I've heard of Obama being accused of plagiarizing anything in his books, or that he has business deals that 'reek of corruption.' Tony Rezko is currently on trial, but not convicted of any crime, and every major paper in Illinois cleared Obama of any connection to the Rezko charges. (Common sense: If he were connected, he also would have been charged with Rezko.) Obama and Rezko happened to be neighbors, Obama bought some land from him, and Rezko contributed money to his campaigns, which Obama has given to charity since Rezko's arrest. If you have anything else, why not post it here? Or are you just throwing stuff out hoping that something sticks? If you think Obama stands for nothing, I suggest you cure your ignorance by reading his positions on the issues at www.barackobama.com/issues
LOL, Vaudree, but McCain won't be doing his own slashing and bashing -- in the well-worn pattern established by Morning-in-America Reagan, his surrogates in the Right Wing Noise Machine will keep a steady stream of political sewage pouring on the Dems while St. John the Hero scathingly derides and humbly apologizes for it -- after the damage is done. And how about that ace up the sleeve of Coulter and her neocon media minions pretending to hate McCain to sucker in the independent vote? "Gee, if that idiot Sean Hannity hates McCain, he must be okay." Machiavelli would be disgusted by this crowd.
Vesselpessel, Obama voted to fund the troops, as did Hillary, and not the war per se -- recall that Bush used the troops as hostages in his 'negotiations' with Congress and threatened to cut supplies and aid to them. It's nice to think that the Dems would resist this kind of sleazy blackmail, but Bush has the media on his side and when these bills came up, I remember the subtext of stories on CNN and in the Washington Post, not to mention Fox News: the Big Media slammed the anti-funding Dems, huffing and puffing that they were trying to impede the president in fighting the war on terror.
Some conservative Dems were also on the side of Bush so, without a united front and enough votes, any attempt to stop the war through defunding was destined to fail, and leave egg on the faces of those who voted to cut Bush's war bucks. In the kind of political pragmatism that will make you purists faint from the vapors, both Clinton and Obama, knowing the war funding bills would pass anyway and planning on running for president, decided to remove that issue from the GOP attack arsenal. Imagine the hysteria if they had voted to defund -- "Obama/Clinton voted against our troops in a time of war!"
Also, let's be kinder to poor RichM and some of the other churlish anti-Obamans here and appreciate their rare talent -- (Warning, ad hominen attack to follow) -- it's got to be hard to type with your head firmly lodged in your rectum.
Mr. Yonge supposes that Joe Lieberman's protege can build a populist movement, eh? Now where have I seen that before?
Maybe here:
"'I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'
`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'
`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'
`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'
`It is the same thing with you,' said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn't much."
Sally UU Kent and those who agree with her first post here NEGLECT, surely wittingly, or it strongly seems anyway, that as critical as it is to get Israel and therefore the US to abide by international laws or treaties, and the UN Charter, and as important as it is for a [civilised] country to provide universal health care coverage, these are only two issues to be very carefully considered, and Obama already fails with these two.
Similar and evidently related to his full support of hellbent Israeli state crimes has been his full support for totally criminal threat of war against Iran, including with the use of nuclear bombs.
His position, what he pledges to do with respect to the war on Iraq, this is clearly NOT going to end the, so far, unending war on Iraqis. We don't take his word for anything on this, except wherein his pledges on what he proposes to do if elected president clearly "spell out" that he is NOT going to end this war.
He says nothing on the criminal war on Afghanistan, another, and so far, unending war of aggression.
He says nothing about the urgency of needing to return Kosovo as a province of Serbia and for the USA to stay the FUCK OUT of other countries' affairs.
He takes no valid position on the need to stop all criminal and cover US black ops in African countries, which includes the need to draw in USAID and to lock this other hellbent US govt agency up ... forever, for the agency is a propaganda, media deception tool for covering up these covert US black ops in Africa.
He has no valid or significant position in terms of the urgency of the need for the USA to stop its imperialist, ... hellbent crimes in South American and Caribbean countries, which necessarily includes restoring the democratically elected govt of Haiti, and throwing all the bastard violent criminals the US, Ca, and France, with extremely criminally complicit UN "peacekeepers", back behind bars where these fiend criminals need to be for the rest of their earthly lives. Also, there's the need for the US sanctions against Cuba to be totally terminated, and for due reparations to be provided.
When speaking of sanctions, the US must stop demanding that sanctions be imposed against Iran, which hasn't done anything wrong, while wrong is all the US ever does around the world; all of it.
He takes no position on the need to totally end the totally hypocritical US govt racket called the 'drug war'; not that this issue is one he'd need to be including mention of during his primary campaign, or the ensuing presidential one, if he's the one the DP nominates.
He takes no position on the need to totally end genetic engineering of seeds for agriculture; or for any purpose whatsoever, for that matter.
Etc. The above are some of the top-priority issues a truly good, honourable US presidency will need to address, and Obama is certainly not going to try to tackle even 20% of these issues.
And it all relates to the USA needing to make the govt truly democratic, representative of The People and law, the valid laws anyway, and international treaties, which means putting a complete end to U.S. govt fascism and particularly the corporatist kind.
Obama is NOT going to do these things; his supporters will have won a partial lottery if he accomplishes [any] of these urgent needs at all.
To believe people only based on their spoken or even written words is FAR unwise; what needs to be judged are actions and official statements, and given that political candidates very regularly LIE during campaigns for office, these are then not the kind of statements and actions that I mean by 'official'. What I mean by that is actions and statements as senator or member of congress, whichever branch a candidate in question is or has been member of.
Again, with respect to Iraq, he says bla bla bla, and people are apparently treating these words as if he is really promising to work on ending the war of aggression there; but anyone who's honest and reasonably capable with mathematical-type of PRECISE logic and problem solving can quickly realise that he is NOT talking about ending the war, but continuing it. We don't need to be educated in maths, but do need to be able to precisely apply the logic needed to understand what he and others really say when they pretend to be saying something starkly different.
Liars fool people sometimes due to the latter being incompetent, fools, naive, or too inexperienced, while some other cases are with very cunning liars, who then can fool even "sharp" or relatively "sharp" people. Charlatans don't exist in purely imaginative terms, fiction; they have and others do exist and operate, and many enough of them "succeed" in getting some unfortunate, naive people to be fooled.
Now I'm not saying Obama's a liar or charlatan, but in terms of appearence, I can understand if some people think this about him. He lies, but maybe it's just that he is not realising that he is badly mistaken, thereby not lying, but fooling himself as well as many of his supporters.
Between him and Billary, well, I'd definitely NEVER be supportive of her for [any] political office; but then I'm, so far, based on his [real], not dreamed-up track record as member of elected office, well, don't hold any greater value in either of their candidacies.
What seems to be very much happening AGAIN is uncivilised USA promoting 'less of evils' for president; again, as usual, etc.
I can't go along with that hellbent way, for while most of these "Americans" evidently do NOT care about Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Kosovans, Haitians, Africans, etc., I DEFINITELY DO, and my vote would not be placed without making these people my topmost consideration for who to vote for here.
I therefore would not vote for either the RP or DP in the USA, or the CP or LP in Canada (Conservative and Liberal parties); although would certainly support Kucinich or Gravel (not sure what's going on with his campaign, now, and not sure if he's still with the DP or if he's switched to Independent).
Pro-Obama people are evidently NOT for stopping the USA's extreme crimes against HUMANITY; plain and simple. Like it or not, argue all you want, it's still the conclusion careful examination of what they are supporting [really] means or amounts to.
Either that, or Obama has been and continues to be extremely holding out from saying what he really plans to do if elected president; and while he might be doing this about some issues, I doubt that it's with respect to even half of the critical issues we can (and should) truthfully list or refer to.
People not willing to correctly address such concerns are in a sense mistaken, going about being a voter in mistaken manner, for all of these concerns should be honestly and respectfully addressed in a civilised, morally ethical, caring, ... democracy. If the concerns are known to be off-base in any real ways, then this should be clarified, instead of partaking in the breeding of either ignorance or miscomprehension, confusion.
Obama's supporters don't do this. They provide NO reality-based reasons for supporting him; besides for their stated support of him being reality-based, "of course". They say bla bla bla pro-Obama, pro-Obama, ..., but without being able to provide any reason for what they pretend to be his credibility, which critically is very low or little.
If Obama tells them the moon's blue with neon-green pokadots, then will they still believe him? After all, facts don't seem to persuade these people.
Anyway, if he's elected president and does as my concerns indicate that I expect he'll do, and not, then the rest of us prefering good, not 'less evil' but good candidates will have MANY more people than only him to fault for the continuation of the extreme crimes of the USA all over this planet.
To NOT be willing to address and dicuss the critical issues, ALL of them, is to be anti-democratic, or, and at best, stupidly, moronically democratic; instead of ethically, intelligently, responsibly, and intelligently. People of the latter kind of character do NOT fear addressing and discussing issues decisions should be based on, instead realising that it's by addressing them, making them known and well understood, so, and basically, inherently meaning to be ready to discuss them is THE WAY TO ALWAYS PROCEDE, to act and react. After all, these people have seriously worked at arriving at their understanding of the issues and their importance, so they'll do what they can to help promote the just resolutions of these issues.
NONE of the pro-Obama supporters have been doing this. When any do, it's very partial, subjectively selective; instead of covering all of the important issues, or if not all of them, then most.
Yet I still agree with Dave Lindorff's article posted here during I believe the first two weeks of Feb., the piece in which he says that Obama's most surely going to do as the hidden and real ruling elites, corporatists, want; unless he gets widespread and strong pressure from his voters, or preferably all voters, which Lindorff did not claim to believe that he thinks is going to happen and which I very much doubt will happen.
Going by these Obama supporters, it's as if we live in a world or time in which the corporatist rulers of the US govt (and NATO) are not particularly powerful; instead of the reality we do really live in and in which these corporate rulers are [very] powerful.
To go against them will require massive pressure-support from US citizens, or a very morally ethical presidency. Even the latter would not fare well at all without massive, widespread pressure-support from voters, for a president also has the Congress and Senate to deal with, and these are filled with mostly criminals.
Maturely address and discuss the issues; this is the way to be truly for real and sane democracy! Disneyland "dreaming" (not that I'd care to have it in any of my dreams, for it'd be unwelcome trespassing) does not make for my idea of LIFE; although the brew pub with a social atmosphere was a welcome spot to learn of, putting a touch of the real human (civilised human) world within Disneyland's "park" of superficial "attractions" (and that's the adult section). Oh, and I mustn't forget the young ladies from France and who worked some tourist booth along the waterway having been pleasant to speak with, too; adding another fine real-world "touch" to the place, compound, "future concentration camp for detained elites", ... whatever the grounds are called. Food was okay, but I didn't see any of the healthier or simply healthy Mediterranean dishes; but those ladies were pleasant, and the pub was social, so it was easy to grab a brew or two and to casually speak with the other people there, many of whom looked depressed (probably suffering from the anti-socially, aka sociopathically, diseased "civilisation" of the USA).
Discuss [the issues], and hopefully cease pretending that words are more meaningful than ACTIONS. Even Satan makes pledges of bringing peace, ending war of aggression, etc., while really having no plans for doing any good whatsoever, and never doing ..., but evil; exposing his words for what they are, charlatan LIES. Diabolically oriented humans also say "nice" things and are a notch less bad (than Satan and other demons), but sure aren't supportable in any morally ethical terms; not with respect to their choices. If we can't honestly discuss the critical issues, then we really are saying that we're either too incompetent, or we selfishly wish to try to twist democracy in our own subjective ways; instead of thinking and acting, which certainly includes voting, in the 'COMMON INTEREST', which, in turn, does not mean exclusion of utmost consideration for the USA's many millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of victims worldwide.
To be SELFISH is to be against sound, healthy commonsense; it's to irrationally believe that it does not matter how much we are complicit in genocides and other extreme crimes against humanity, as long as we selfishly live comfortably.
Obama's NOT going to do any good in terms of the US economy alone, much less good on the even more critical issues. Only selfish people could prioritise the nation's economic woes over the lives of hundreds of innocent people who are victims of the same nation and its electorate. If that's the choice made, then these choosers' lives are WORTHLESS, just toxic air; either that, or they're [awfully] naive.
People who obstinately want to be narrow-minded and selfish will have their way, for themselves, because there's nothing others can do about resolving such matters. And others will then have reality-based grounds for honestly criticising these selfish and/or naive choices and related reasoning; if any reasoning is even presented when the selfish or naive choices are stated.
77% of "Americans" insanely and irresponsibly supported war on Iraq at a time when there was no way that this could be justified, not even a little.
"Americans" evidently don't tire of being hellishly criminal; they always find excuses for continuing.
CANDIDATES' VOTING RECORDS COMPARED (updated March 4, 2008)
What is more important, image or substance? Rhetoric or record?
Candidates' campaign speeches change from week to week. They pander to one group, then they pander to the next group. So, how do we know what they really stand for? Check their voting records!
Right now, Clinton and Obama are promising to fix NAFTA and other trade deals. But, how did they vote on that issue when they had the chance? They are promising to end the war in Iraq. How did they vote on that issue when they had the chance? Corporate welfare, environmental protection, social justice, public health, consumer protection — they've voted on all these important Progressive issues, and more!
Clinton, Obama and McCain have all been U.S. Senators for the past three years. Here's how they voted:
(1) Confirmation of Condoleeza Rice to be Secretary of State (vote taken 1/26/2005)
Analysis: Neo-con, war criminal
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(2) Tort "reform" (Class Action Fairness Act of 2005) (vote taken 2/10/2005)
Analysis: Opposed by more than 68 consumer, civil rights, environmental and labor groups, it was described as the "final [Republican] payback to the tobacco, asbestos, oil and chemical industries, at the expense of ordinary families whose health has been compromised."
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(3) Dayton Amendment (S.Amdt. 31) to the 2005 Bankruptcy Act (vote taken 3/3/2005)
Analysis: Would cap credit card interest rates at 30%. Senator Dayton provided examples of predatory lenders charging vulnerable people more than 1000%/year interest. Republicans argued that "free-markets" should set interest rates, and government should not interfere.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: No, McCain: No
(4) Energy Policy Act of 2005 (vote taken 7/29/2005)
Analysis: A corporate-welfare bill called "bad policy" by Public Citizen because it gives "billions of dollars in unjustified subsidies to the fossil fuel and nuclear energy industries," rollbacks environmental regulations for the oil and gas industry, and "repeals the Public Utility Holding Company Act (PUHCA), an essential consumer protection that ensures that electric utilities exist to serve the people, not the profit interests of large corporations."
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(5) Dorgan Amendment (S.Amdt. 1665) to the 2005 Commerce Appropriations Bill (vote taken 9/15/2005)
Analysis: Would prevent future trade deals that allow "dumping" of products into the U.S. at prices below their cost of acquisition (harming U.S. farmers, ranchers, businesses and workers), by prohibiting the Commerce Department from weakening current countervailing duties and antidumping laws.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: No, McCain: No
(6) Confirmation of John Roberts to the Supreme Court (vote taken 9/29/2005)
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No, Obama: No, McCain: Yes
(7) Confirmation of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court (vote taken 1/31/2006)
Analysis: Hard right-winger
Clinton: No, Obama: No, McCain: Yes
(8) USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization (vote taken 3/1/2006)
Analysis: Allows the government to spy on citizens in "fishing expeditions" without probable cause or a court order, including listening to telephone calls, intercepting emails, accessing private medical records, library records and bank records, and searching homes and businesses without permission or knowledge.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: Yes
(9) Feinstein Amendment (S.Amdt. 4882) to the 2007 Department of Defense Appropriations Act (vote taken 9/06/2006)
Analysis: Outlaws use of cluster bombs in most cases, in order to protect civilian lives from unexploded cluster munitions.
Clinton: No, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(10) Iraq withdrawal timeline goal (2007 Supplemental Appropriations Act) (vote taken 3/29/2007)
Analysis: Provides that, "The President shall commence the phased redeployment of United States forces from Iraq not later than 120 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, with the goal of redeploying, by March 31, 2008, all United States combat forces from Iraq."
Clinton: Yes, Obama: Yes, McCain: No
(11) Kyl-Lieberman resolution on Iran (vote taken 9/26/2007)
Analysis: Tantamount to a declaration of war (Sen. James Webb, former Secretary of the Navy).
Clinton: Yes, Obama: NV, McCain: NV
(12) Feingold-Reid Amendment (S.Amdt. 3164) to the 2008 Department of Defense Appropriations Act (vote taken 10/3/2007)
Analysis: Requires the President to safely redeploy all U.S. troops from Iraq by June 30, 2008, except for those needed for al Qaeda operations, security and training.
Clinton: Yes, Obama: NV, McCain: No
A good Progressive would have voted as follows:
(1) Condoleeza Rice: NO
(2) Tort "reform": NO
(3) Cap credit card interest rates at 30%: YES
(4) Energy bill: NO
(5) Prevent unfair trade deals: YES
(6) John Roberts: NO
(7) Samuel Alito: NO
(8) USA PATRIOT Act Reauthorization: NO
(9) Outlaw cluster bombs: YES
(10) Iraq withdrawal timeline goal: YES
(11) Kyl-Lieberman resolution on Iran: NO
(12) Iraq withdrawal timeline requirement: YES
Here are the candidates' Progressive vote totals:
Clinton score: 8 of 12
Obama score: 4 of 12
McCain score: 1 of 12
RE: - As for Obama, I've posted before, it's not about Obama, it's not about Clinton, it is our youth movement, you can't scare us.
Robots cannot feel fear and, thus, cannot show bravery. The jaded youth who have seen it all and heard it all! Sure we could scare you, but should we? You know that case that Naomi Klein refers to on page 31 of The Shock Doctrine involving 9 former patients of Ewan Cameron? Do you know what that case is called? It is named after the first of the nine to come forward. Val Orlikow was seeking treatment for postpartum depression. She died in 1990. Her husband was an MP and he was frightened at the possibility of taking on the CIA, but he did so any way. Brian Mulroney, the Prime Minister at the time, put every road block in the way of the case he could. Turns out that German money provided by an arms dealer rigged the leadership race that Brian Mulroney needed to win before he could become Prime Minister. Brian Mulroney admits to accepting envelopes of money handed to him in hotel rooms.
Cheney makes Mulroney look like a man of integrity.
That is enough for a start. Will save the really scary stuff for later.
About Obama, the higher the expectations surrounding him, the harder it will be for him to live up to them. I think he is better than Clinton or McCain, I just don't know by how much. He risks being the next Bob Rae.
I won't talk down to you. I won't dismiss you. But when someone says that I can't scare them it gets a bit tempting.
RE: - However, the lack of any mention of the organized labor moevemnt in the article was a real disappointment.
You will get your wish soon enough. I bet there will be an article about the memo Harper's bunch leaked to CTV up here within the next couple of days. Those who want to renegotiate/scrap NAFTA want a trade agreement where labour rights are protected and the removal of trade barriers is based on the exporter maintaining a certain level of labour standards.
I am happy that Clinton and Obama are not happy with NAFTA, but quite disappointed that neither mentioned the SPP conference in New Orleans in April. I expect whoever out of Clinton or Obama who is still standing by then to have observers status at that meeting. He/She may not be able to influence its outcome but they should at least be able to tell us what went on there.
Speaking of scary, what do you know about the SPP?
"someone has come along and offered us something we haven't had much of in recent years, and that's HOPE."
Your response is precisely why it is so shameful that you and the rest who should know better are so agog abt Obama. He offers no more hope than a contestant on American Idol. It is the enthusiasm that people are drawn too, it is not issues, not ideas on how things might be improved, etc. There have been serious alternative presented, but the DC elites, and MSM, don't like actual alternatives. They'd rather a chum of theirs played the role.
Will you be there to hold the hands of all these believers when it turns out Obama is nothing more than another cypher? Who is going to explain to them then that believing isn't organizing.
And for Mr. Younge to be suggesting that this sort of carnival event is a potential, or real, political movement speaks to how deeply awful the world is at this point. The only option people will enter is the one for the well spoken fellow with excellent posture. He's the winner. What kind of a movement do you build around that? Perhaps a youth fashion subculture, which wouldn't be so bad, but it's not a nascent poltical movement.
This just in:
Headline
"Obama Backs Bush Administration Policy of Shunning Hamas"
Yet, another politician brought to you by AIPAC
Well, I will not be voting for him, Billary, nor McCain
To paraphrase Ben Franklin (a characterological anal-retentive in all-too-many other in respects):
Wittnessing either the making of Laws (political debate) --or sausages-- is not for the faint-hearted.
I agree with the premise of the article. The Obama "phenomenon" is that his campaign is becoming the focal point of the American people's anger at the Bush regime, and their demand for fundamental change. There are certainly forces pulling the Obama candidacy in different, conflicting directions. What Obama is bringing to the table that is entirely different from all other candidates is that he understands that also, and he is trying to build a people's movement to help him be able to counteract the corporate pressures.
This can only be a positive to progressives, as well as the organized labor movement.
However, the lack of any mention of the organized labor moevemnt in the article was a real disappointment. The labor movement is at this time actually building the militant people's movement that the article is talking about. Labor is holding a series of training sessions for activists in all major cities. They are bldg wide coalitions with faith based progressive groups, community and student/academic groups. This is the real base of growing mass people's movement.
There are certainly no guarantees of success, but there is an absolute guarantee of failure if we don't fight for change. The enthusiasm of the Obama campaign should not be looked down on. It is doing what every Democratic campaign in the last 3 dacades have all promised to do, but haven't been able to do--Get young people to get active, and VOTE!! I stood in line yesterday for 2 1/2 hours at the Columbus, Oh Bd of Elections to vote. The crowd, in its thousands, was 90% African American, and lots of young folks. His support is also coming from even rural GOP areas. What it represents is the people's desire for real change.
The other thing that is happening is that Obama's positions on issues are becoming much sharper, as he talking of the need for change from below. He is the ONLY candidate (except Dennis) to state that he'd raise the cap on social security taxes, have the rich pay their share and that system would be good forever. His position on the war was the best, and it's more solid now (all troops out w/in 16 months). His positions on mideast, while still lacking in balance, is world's better than Hilliary's.
One other thing. Many folks talk about Dennis Kucinich, like him. He is in a political battle in Cleveland for his seat. Massive corporate/AIPAC money was poured in an attempt to unseat him, using a councilman "Corporate Joe" Cimperman. The Unions in N Ohio have provided 95% of his support, almost all of the org'd door to door work, ph banks, etc. I think he'll pull it out, only due to organized labor's work.
Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption. Hillary has been playing by party rules and not bringing out any of the big guns because that's how the game is played.
Plagiarism? Where? Are you sure that this isn't some dirty trick pulled out by either the Clintonistas or the Rovian Republicans in an attempt to discredit Obama? I've read this book and I don't recall any plagiarism accusations regarding this book, and I work in a library and am keenly aware of any kind of discrepancies that are uncovered regarding any book that becomes a bestseller. So I think you're way off there where that's concerned, and frankly, I smell Karl Rove behind that charge.
And the only "business deal that reeks of corruption" is one with Tony Rezko that he openly admits was a mistake and donated the money he received from Rezko to charity. Hillary, on the other hand, is listed as one of the Ten Most Corrupt Politicans in 2007 by the National Ledger. Do you want someone with that kind of reputation leading our country?
I'm quite sure that there isn't a squeaky clean politician out there who doesn't have some kind of skeleton in his or her closet that could be resurrected and used as a weapon against them in a campaign, but with Hillary, you get a "two-fer" - basically, you're getting Bill back in the White House, and they'll act as "co-presidents". We've already had our Clinton era, which, although it was marked by a budget surplus, remember, much of what seemed to make the good times roll during the Clinton era was the whole "dot-com" boom, which all came tumbling down in a house of cards when it was revealed to be nothing more than a bunch of smoke and mirrors - wild speculation over the "next big thing" that turned out to go belly up and cost a whole lot of people their jobs and caused a huge ripple effect throughout the economy. It's much like the whole sub-prime mortgage crisis going on right now. That was also built on a whole lot of speculation about unending price increases in real estate and when the bubble burst, it caused us to go into the freefall that we're still in right now.
Frankly, I want someone in charge who has displayed good character and judgement and can bring people together to solve tough problems. I want someone who can reach across the aisle and may have a chance to end the bitter, partisan bickering and gridlock that has stalemated Washington for far too long now. I don't see Hillary as possessing those qualities. There are still enough rabid Hillary haters in Congress who will absolutely refuse to listen to her or work with her and will rebuff her at any opportunity possible. She is one of the most hated, reviled and polarizing figures to come down the pike in a long time and I don't see people willing to work with her to solve the tough problems we face in our nation and around the world.
Can you imagine an extremely conservative Islamic nation taking her seriously? They probably wouldn't let her set foot on their soil unless she covered up completely in an abaya or a burqa, and even then, she would not be able to travel alone or speak to a man without a male accompanying her, and of course, that'd mean that she'd have to drag Bill along on each and every diplomatic sortie to conservative Islamic nations just so she could move about.
That is something to seriously consider when choosing the next leader of our country. Whoever they are, they're going to have to deal face to face with leaders of extremely conservative Islamic nations like Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan and others. A woman would not be listened to or taken seriously by any nation that still goes by sharia law. There is that factor to consider, sadly, but that's the cold hard reality of it all.
So, sorry all you gal pals of Hillary. This isn't the right time for her to be President. Obama, who has lived among Muslims and has an understanding of their culture, would be far better suited to deal with the Middle East situation than Hillary would. Yes, it's a gender thing, sadly, and I wish it wasn't, but that's how it is right now. Nations that follow Wahabbism and sharia law aren't going to take a female leader seriously because of their cultural norms regarding women. I don't like it, but there it is. Deal with it.
He's getting HAMMERED right now in Corporate Media. They pulled out the stops. All Clinton and McCain have to do is watch Obama get DEANSCREAMED and Jerry Brown MOONBEAMED to hell in a handbasket. I'm sure the military industrial complex, megapharms and energy transnationals have NOTHING to do with it.
If they really despise him so much, maybe I should rethink my cynicism.
I actually got to listen to a talking head from Washington Times (SunMyungMoon-ChristioFascist-Rag)... on CNN call for Obama to "reject and denounce" his own Pastor, NOT Farrakhan. This, with the tagline below, "Obama's Radical Ties."
It's really going to be fun when the Clinton Campaign sues Texas Democrats... seats the Michigan Delegates... lobbies for a new Caucus in Florida successfully... while we're consigned to the internet nether-realm, speculating about FRAUD IN OHIO.
Yeah... if I wasn't in America... I'd be horrified by the demented dog and pony show behind the ears of Americans... while we produce another sequel, to our never-ending Splatter Flick abroad.
I'm about ready to do the Dr. Strangelove, "How I learned to quit worrying and LOVE the bomb." Paying attention is WAY too annoying.
Still, until CommonDreams has a 7 PM prime time News Magazine on MSNBC, (in other words, until Hell freezes over)... we can keep whining.
to SliMSDaHy: yes, out of necessity he's holding back. If he came on like Kucinich or even Edwards (bless them for help blazing the path)he would've been annihilated(sp?) by the DLC/Billary, Fox, CNN(Fox-Lite,etc. machine. He must speak in code (recall Peter, Paul, & Mary; if if you really say it, you must lay it between the lines.) Yes, the most powerful leader in the world will speak respectfully with everbody else in the world. How in the hell else are you going to achieve world peace, fight starvation, fight global warming, etc.??
I so agree w/thedeed, that it is about taking over the Democratic Party (this is the battle which the people who are suffering and w/conscience watch w/bated breath) As my 22 year old daughter (despite my help, in debt, in debt up to her ears), after standing 3 hours in a 2 mile line, in the World Trade Center in Boston, shouted out, along w/the beautiful people she met, "YES WE CAN"!!!!!!!
coming from the youth camp. Thank you lizard for focusing on congressional races. As for Obama, I've posted before, it's not about Obama, it's not about Clinton, it is our youth movement, you can't scare us. You can't talk down to us, you can't dismiss us. Our movement first of all knows that we do not want McCain. We gave Hillary a listen for awhile but decided she feels way too entitled and we have not liked that every other day she slings the sh*t at Obama. Obama will or will not do everything we want him to do. So be it. We intend to work locally to make our lives more bearable and win some concessions. If there is anything you all have taught us it's that we have no stake in your game. We work through the internet with youth in all parts of the globe and have decided it's time for you to stop telling us we have no say in our destiny. I say this respectfully. Thank You
The real point of the Obama campaign is taking over the Democratic party from the Clintons. That's what its really about. I think many in this forum are unhappy with Clinton's triangulation. For you, Obama would be a refreshing change. There's a whole group of democrats that are not in power, and that group now is almost in. The Clintonistas did win power at one time, but their time is past. The Latino vote is likely to make the difference -- its just their time.
"How many other candidates can boast of such a broad coalition of support?"
Blah blah blah- sounds like a reprise of the Ronald Raygun Revolution. I am serious, if you could just pull back a little and read all of this CRAP exalting Sen. Obama like he is the Second Coming. Unless- as I have also read here on CommonDreams- he is seriously holding back so as to avoid being buried alive ala Kucinich and Edwards, we can plainly see that we are indeed being presented a choice between Coke and Pepsi and things are being set up for a continuation of bizznezz as usual.
Barack Obama voted to fund the Iraq war TWICE while he was in the Senate. To me voting to FUND a war is the same as supporting it. Why is it that people seem to forget this little fact when they castigate Clinton for her Iraq vote?
This ain't gonna happen.
Obama is deeply conservative.
There will be no progressive resurgence, no movement, no increase in citizen activism.
This is just a corporate generated parade, people voting for a celebrity, not unlike American Idol.
RE: - Any body who believes that everyone is entitled to a share of the good things that come from the planet will find herself accused of being a communist.
There are much worst things that one can be called ... such as a REPUBLICAN!
RE: - This is absolutely true. No single person, not even Mr. Obama, can pull us out of a bottomless tar pit our country has been sliding into.
I guess you can call the Alberta Tar Sands a tar pit - yeah, Milton's policies used to create massive oil wealth and "the good life" for a lucky few. That said, there is an election in Alberta tonight and maybe the far right and the newly formed further right parties will split the vote. It would be nice.
RE: - She can't win against McCain. Period. The Republicans will haul out every bit of the heavy artillery they have
No one will keep the Clintons down forever. If either Clinton or Obama lose against McCain, they deserve to lose! I doubt that even McCain thinks that there will be a Republican president - his job is to to plant enough seeds of destruction that the Dems only take back the Whitehouse for one term.
RE: - Her wayward husband.
Even "Real Women" expect to to "Stand by Your Man."
RE: - Vince Foster's suicide.
I don't think that McCain wants to bring up affairs - especially ones that are the subject of speculation but have never been proven to exist.
RE: - Memo
Found out the real dirt behind the leak memo story. Seems that the Canadian embassy approached all the camps a few months ago and sat on the information until after the Ohio debate. Then they exaggerated a bit and intentionally leaked the memo to CTV and the rest of the media picked it up from there.
It doesn't really matter whether what that adviser said was taken out of context or exaggerated or even pretty much fabricated, if you are an Obama supporter, he's got to cut the guy loose. If the person is able to clear their name, then Obama can let the person back. But, right or wrong, keeping the person in the fold makes it look like what Harper's friends are making it look like the person said he agrees with.
On the plus side, if Harper's bunch really felt that Obama would uphold his agenda, then they would not have leaked the memo to CTV. Harper's bunch are worried about Obama.
I note that Harper's bunch did not feel the need to release memos concerning Clinton or McCain - even though they talked to ALL the camps.
Hillary's liabilities:
1. She's considered to be divisive and polarizing.
2. She's a Clinton, and there are still members of the old "Contract on America" crowd peopling Congress that would like nothing more than a final Clinton take-down and would hound her to hell and gone until they'd be rid of her for good. You think that calls for the impeachment of BushCo have been loud? Honey, you ain't seen nothin' yet!
3. She can't win against McCain. Period. The Republicans will haul out every bit of the heavy artillery they have to take her down once and for all and destroy her and Bill so badly that they'll just about have to go into hiding and skulk back to New York in shame at the end of the entire election.
4. No matter what some folks think, there are still plenty of men who can't vote for a woman President and won't vote for a woman President. Yes, there are still some folks who still think a woman's place is in the kitchen or beside her husband and not out in front leading, believe it or not. I don't care if this is the 21st century, there are still some folks who live in the era of "Leave it to Beaver" and want it to stay that way.
5. Her wayward husband. Paula Jones. Gennifer Flowers. Monica. The blue dress. 'Nuff said. (There are folks who say that if she can't control her wayward husband, how on earth do you expect her to control our country and world affairs?)
6. Whitewater. Yup, there are those who will drag that whole ugly thing out of the basement and use it again as a weapon against Hillary.
7. Vince Foster's suicide. Another old piece of Hillary baggage that will be used against her.
In short, she's got a baggage train long enough to really cause her problems. Even if she were a man, these things would be hauled out of the closest and used against him. These aren't necessarily sexist accusations, they're baggage issues that I know that the McCain people will find a way to use as a weapon to take her and Bill down. Don't forget that even though Karl Rove isn't a part of the Bush administration anymore, he still lurks out there waiting for an opportunity to once again use dirty tricks against someone, and who better than Hillary, who is one of the most reviled and hated women to come down the pike in a very long time.
These are just a few of the reasons I won't support her. She also voted to give Bush the unprecedented war powers he's assumed, and she voted for the Iraqi invasion, and if you listened to the show "Fresh Air" on NPR today, you would have heard the authors of the book "The Three Trillion Dollar War" talk about what the war has cost us in so many ways and what it will continue to cost us for generations to come. She has that on her hands as well and as someone who is paying well over $3 a gallon for gas because of that war, I can't condone voting for someone whose voting record has cost me so dearly in the pocketbook, and she's unapologetic about voting to invade Iraq as well.
FYI, Oil was $25 a barrel before the Iraqi invasion. It is now well over $100 a barrel. The whopping cost increase can be directly blamed on the Iraq war and we'll continue to pay higher costs from now on as a result of said war. This is what you get when you have oil men running the country who are probably making record profits off of the oil price increase.
At least Obama knew from the get-go that the Iraq invasion was wrong headed and stupid, and that shows that he's got better judgement than Hillary. That in itself is another reason that I support Obama over Hillary. Sure, if he wins, he probably won't fully be able to clean up the Bush mess even if he wins a second term, but at least he can try to right the ship enough to put it on a somewhat stable footing. And that's better than Hillary can do. She'd be spending the next 4-8 years fending off the Republican attack machine instead of being able to get anything tangible done in Washington. Washington would once again return to its bitter, partisan and gridlocked ways, and we'd find ourselves no better off down the road than we are now. Do you want that kind of government for the next four to eight years? One that is mired in bitter partisanship instead of solving tough problems plaguing our country and our world?
I don't.
'Nuff said!
This is hilarious, first, because anyone thinks Obama stands for anything other than Obama, and second, because you think he can beat McCain. The Republicans are holding their breath waiting for tomorrow's results, 'cause they know if Obama wins the nomination, then they're back in the White House for another 4 years. Why? Because Obama's got far more baggage, already, than Hillary does, including numerous cases of plagiarism (including in his 1st "memoir") and business deals that reek of corruption. Hillary has been playing by party rules and not bringing out any of the big guns because that's how the game is played. The Repubs will have no problem with dragging out the whole artillary. As far as I can tell, the man has absolutely no substance, he's a tissue-paper candidate who appeals, not surprisingly, to tissue-paper voters. On the bright side, as Gary Younge points out, whoever wins is almost certainly doomed to failure, and it is probably a good thing that it won't be the 1st woman or the 1st person of color in the White House to fail in the impossible task of cleaning up Bush's mess.
Americans are nothing if not entertaining.
"Obama cannot turn this around on his own any more than Bush got America into this mess on his own." "Enough of the public would have to be equally complicit in Obama's agenda for him to right Bush's wrongs."
This is absolutely true. No single person, not even Mr. Obama, can pull us out of a bottomless tar pit our country has been sliding into. In Democracy, ultimately it is the electorate who has that power and obligation as well. We must have a hand not only in defining but also in achieving new sets of goals which will shape our future. Obama supporters' responsibility is to stay engaged and stay committed through out his campaigns, his presidency (if he is elected) and beyond so that we can achieve what we set out to do: move toward more progressive, just, equitable, responsible, and peaceful society. This is the time to make "Obama movement" America's Movement.
Any body who believes that everyone is entitled to a share of the good things that come from the planet will find herself accused of being a communist.
I believe if you have two of something you have somebody else's stuff.
I never expected Obama to take Ohio.
I was born and raised in Ohio and know how right wing it is.
Hillary has to do better than take Ohio she has to take Ohio and Texas in a landslide!
I am not a regular religious man but please God don't subject me to her screeching voice anymore... I promise I will be good.... Please God!
Jim Hussein Glover
Sadly, even with this, Obama is probably still the best one out of the three top candidates. Of course, it could be just the Canadian government trying to influence the American election - as Jack Layton accused Harper of doing today. Nothing short of firing the adviser will save Obama. Tomorrow I will have the Question Period response to the following:
Canadian memo recounts Obama adviser's meeting
Sen. Barack Obama's campaign was thrown on the defensive today after a memo surfaced showing the U.S. presidential candidate's senior economic policy adviser told Canadian diplomats that Obama's call to renegotiate NAFTA was only campaign rhetoric.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080302/nafta_memo_080303/20080303?hub=World
Canadian memo suggests Obama's NAFTA comments 'political positioning'
Obama's adviser rejects interpretation
Barack Obama's threat to withdraw from NAFTA should be viewed as "political positioning," according to a memo written after the U.S. presidential hopeful's senior economic policy adviser met with Canadian officials.
The memo, obtained by the Associated Press, was written by Canadian consulate staffer Joseph DeMora, after a meeting in Chicago last week between Austan Goolsbee and Canadian Consul General Georges Rioux. ...
"You've got a right-wing government in Canada that is trying to help the Republicans and is out there actively interfering in the campaign," senior Democratic adviser Bob Shrum said on MSNBC's Meet the Press on Sunday night.
The Canadian government has denied that conversations took place between Canadian officials and members of any presidential campaign regarding trade.
"The Canadian Embassy confirms that at no time has any member of a presidential campaign called the Canadian ambassador or any official at the embassy to discuss NAFTA," the government said Thursday on its embassy website.
DeMora's memo, however, said that when Rioux asked whether he could expect to hear more NAFTA debate as the U.S. election progressed, Goolsbee indicated no.
"In fact, he mentioned that going forward the Obama campaign was going to be careful to send the appropriate message without coming off too protectionist."
De Mora was unavailable for comment Sunday. A Canadian embassy spokesman, Tristan Landry, told the Associated Press that while it was not uncommon for consulate officials to connect with U.S. campaign officials, "Canada does not in any way seek to interfere in US. electoral politics."
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/03/03/obama-canada.html
Such impassioned vows of support for Obama! Just as RichM predicted in his first post.
Interesting that you all think that Obama will win tomorrow. I disagree. I think they'll play this soap opera out longer than you think is possible. (Just like in TV soap operas)
http://wagelaborer.blogspot.com/2008/03/how-will-clinton-win-in-ohio-and-texas.html
Obama volunteers may not have been willing to talk with a news reporter without some sort of official permission. But that's not typical of what I've seen. At a house party last night, the hosts spoke freely, at length, about why they supported him, as did many of the participants. We didn't all have the same reasons in the same order, but there was a lot of common ground. And just having African-American and white (and Cape Verdean, and I don't know what-all else) folks sitting together in each others' living rooms talking about serious political and economic issues is a breakthrough. Regardless of what happens tomorrow, in August, and in November, I don't see things ever going back to pre-Obama. It's up to all of us to continue the organizing and the pressure.
Well the latest attack on Obama is that he is a Commie!
That is what I heard from a couple friends in Cleveland who think they know everything about the true Obama and what he is gonna do just like some of you Dem Haters on common dreams who know more about what Obama will do than Obama knows....
What I believe he will do is listen to you with respect and that will throw you all for a loop.
If someone listens to you then you may have to answer some questions and take responsibility for your answers.
times they are a changing
SallyUUKent (1:14) - you basically made the following points:
- Obama is way too pro-Israel
- Obama refuses to back single-payer health care
- Obama is better than Hillary
OK, fine. I agree with you on all those points. That wouldn't begin to make me vote for him, though. There are plenty of third-party candidates that express my perspective far better than Obama does, & I don't see beating McCain as being particularly important.
In 1964, Goldwater was portrayed as the irresponsible "mad dog warmonger." So the "more reasonable" Democratic warmonger was elected. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. This game will never stop, unless people stop playing it. Voting for a Democrat is choosing to continue playing the game.
------------
cicero confused (1:24 pm) - If you construed my comment as being supportive of Hillary, you construed wrong. I despise both Clintons. To me, they're the same as Bush, except less honest.
Defeat the female. Place the Black Man in Office, then lynch the Black Man. And DLC Dims will bring the rope because, like Carter, "he's not one of them." Read some history, it ain't that long ago. Carter was the guy before Raygun and after Ford. His own party fucked him because he was an outsider. So first BHO must defeat the Repugs, then he must defeat his own party - or they will defeat him. This is how we play among the Overseer Class. Aryan politics has always been a blood sport.
Peace.
SallyUUKent March 3rd, 2008 1:14 pm:
"Sure, as a woman, I'd love to see the ultimate glass ceiling finally broken, but this particular female candidate has too many liabilities against her that could lead to a Republican victory in November."
With all the discussion of gender versus racial politics, it would be good for the US to get the gender thing off its back. And I don't like it when "they" make references to a woman politician for being "whiney" or "petulant". I think that smacks of sexism. I would guestimate that the US is, surprisingly more sexist than racist, when it comes time to pick a president. The overarching racism is trounced by the macho need to have a strong father figure leader at the "bully pulpit".
But, that said, what is it with Clinton that she seems to have shot herself in the foot from day one of becoming a senator? Every vote, pronouncement and gesture since her election has been transparently geared towards achieving the white house. She must think she has to out-Margaret Thatcher, Thatcher.
hopefully the movement of which the author speaks will bring Obama to the White House. and then push him to help realize their aspirations and bring hope for our survival as a free and proud people.
Sally --- you rock! I started writing a response to Rich M. and deleted it because I just couldn't say what I wanted to say without getting too ad hominem. Then I refresh and see that, twice, you've made my point much more eloquently than I could have.
All I want to add is:
I am a 43-year-old, Gen-X, Progressive, who would agree with Kucinich/Nader on almost every policy point.
Howeer, I am most interested in electing a President who displays integrity, conviction, realness, intelligence and leadership.... and Obama is the best candidate I've seen on that basis.
Left Wing Cynic=Right Wing Cynic=Centrist Cynic=Apolitical Cynic
LOL!!!!
Oh, mann, that's funny. The idea that the Obamamaniacs would organize.
The whole point of the Obamarama is that people just want to believe, they don't want to do anything. This American Idol, noit politics. This text in who is cutest, not organize a movement.
Mr. Younge, and everyone else who is old enough, should be ashamed of themselves for participating this farce.
Read my post above. I am not one falling for a cult of personality, or who is cutest, or the American Idol version of politics. We are Obama supporters, not silly, starry eyed girls giggling over a cute candidate. Shame on you for even accusing us of such.
Obama supporters have come out in droves, crossing many lines of old, young, male, female, black, white, Latino, Asian-American, poor, rich, college educated, blue collar, employed, unemployed, independent, Democrat, Republican and any other definition you can think of.
How many other candidates can boast of such a broad coalition of support? Why is it that Obama has won 11 of the last primaries and is on the verge of winning even more tomorrow? Surely you can't accuse each and every one of us who has voted for or supported Obama of being a fool? Look how many endorsements he has won, from fellow legislators, unions and so many more. Do you dare call them fools or idolators?
Cynics. Sheesh, it's you folks who sit around and whine about the state of the world but don't want to do anything about it who really piss me off. You poo-poo every candidate for every office as not being somehow up to your exacting standards and then whine when they try to do anything and accuse them of everything short of treason.
For once, someone has come along and offered us something we haven't had much of in recent years, and that's HOPE. When was the last time anybody had the temerity to step forward and do that? When was the last time you heard someone say something besides, "Be afraid! Be very afraid!" Don't you think that some of us are tired of all the color coded warnings, the secretive wiretappings, the black sites where God knows what goes on in the way of mediaeval torture, the shredding of our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions, the illegal war and so much more?
So condemn us already for finding someone who offers us hope, like a thirsty man who has just found an oasis after a long walk in the desert. And we're not just falling for that one word, hope. We're watching, listening, paying attention, questioning, reading, learning, studying platforms of the candidates and making informed decisions about who we're going to vote for. We Obama supporters have mostly made an informed decision to vote for our candidate. Oh, sure, there are probably some out there who have chosen him because he's the American Idol of candidates, but don't condemn the rest of us who have chosen him based on careful and informed decisions.
And yes, we're organized. We have field offices, phone banks and volunteers working long and tireless hours day after day after day to make sure our candidate gets elected. They aren't being paid to do this hard work of marching through snow and slush to knock on doors and talk to people, they aren't being paid to sit at phones for long, exhausting hours on end to dial and dial and dial and talk and talk and talk, they aren't being paid to send out flyers and direct mailers and drive to post offices in the often unpredictable Ohio winter weather. These are dedicated, enthusiastic and tireless volunteers working to change their country.
And I thank them for their hard work. It is they who will make a difference in this campaign.
Lizard, 1:43: I think you're right; Americans believe that the power of the President outweighs that of Congress, even though the Constitution splits those powers.
There are two reasons for this. The first was the Great Depression, when Congress wrung its hands and did nothing while 1/4 of the American work force became unemployed and would have starved without soup kitchens and Home Relief. Only a powerful President -- FDR -- seemed able to ameliorate the terrible suffering (Congress went along, kicking and screaming). The second reason is the unprecedented power grab by Bush and Cheney during the past 7 years. Anyone who hasn't been comatose since the Bushites took power can't help but notice that they've also taken powers that didn't belong to them according to the Constitution.
So one president used unconstitutional powers for the good of the people, while the other used those powers to further enrich the rich, raise corporate welfare to new levels, and set up a near-police state in terms of surveilling our citizens.
Oh, but I forgot: Ralph Nader is sure there isn't a dime's worth of difference between the parties, so it doesn't matter who's President any more.
I am not so pro Obama as anti-Clinton.
And I will never let you fools who pile-on Obama--as if he was equivilant to Clinton-McCain forget it if she manages to "win".
You will get what you deserve, but what pisses me off--as with the idiots who voted for Bush, is we will all suffer when we could've had a substantially greater liklihood for something better.
Sally UU Kent, I agree wholeheartedly with your 2 cents. I think you hit the nail on the head.
Tosca (1:14 pm) -- Thank you! That was very refreshing -- just perfect! :)
LOL!!!!
Oh, mann, that's funny. The idea that the Obamamaniacs would organize.
The whole point of the Obamarama is that people just want to believe, they don't want to do anything. This American Idol, noit politics. This text in who is cutest, not organize a movement.
Mr. Younge, and everyone else who is old enough, should be ashamed of themselves for participating this farce.
The preoccupation with the race for president while not following congresional races is a sign of the fact that Americans believe in the superior power of the president. This is contrary to the principles of the constitution, or so we were taught. In fact, though, the constitution has shown itself unable to prevent the rise of the Imperial presidency. Article V anyone?
I do believe that congressional races are more important than presidential ones, although with the rise in presidential power this may not be true in the future or perhaps already. Incumbents need to be kicked out everywhere. A house cleaning is in order. Yet, we hear almost nothing about these races and there seems to be no movement against incumbents. I suspect most of these losers will be reelected. I don't think Americans are capable of handling democracy.
Rich M, I'm sure some people support Obama for 'idiotic' reasons. So what? Do you think that support for Hillary Clinton is always the result of a highly sophisticated political analysis? Please be more reasonable when you make your generalizations. Sally's analysis above is a perfect example of somebody who is supporting Obama and does not necessarily live in la-la land.
RichM - there are plenty of things about Obama's platform that I do not agree with. For one, his very pro-Israeli stand (I'm not anti-Semitic, but I do feel that Israel is a terrorist state bent on oppression of the Palestinians, who just want their own sovereign nation and who want the land back that was stolen from them after WWI when the old Ottoman Empire was broken up and artificial boundaries that created the current Middle East map were put into place). And another, his refusal to back a not-for-profit, single payer health care system like the one proposed by Kucinich.
Those things aside, though, I'd rather vote for Obama than Clinton, because all we're getting with her is Bill back in the White House in an attempt to vindicate himself from the Monica Lewinsky affair. I'm not in favor of a Clinton restoration. I'd rather look ahead to the future with an eye toward someone who might stand a snowball's chance of being willing - and able - to speak to our enemies and maybe, just maybe, restore a little of our nation's tarnished image abroad.
I'm not naïve about the current candidates. I know what each of them stands for and what they'd bring to the Oval Office. I don't agree 100% with any of them on the issues, but the one who best reflects my values is Barack Obama, and even he has some liabilities in my book, but look, if it comes down to a Clinton Restoration, McCain and his 100 year war against the Islamists and Obama, well......guess what? I'm going to take Obama because he at least represents the future, not rushing headlong, Forward, Into the Past!
So chastise me if you want for choosing who I am voting for, but I've looked carefully at everyone's positions on the issues that matter to me the most, and I have made an educated choice based on it. I'm not being caught up in some kind of cult of personality or charisma. Yes, I find that very attractive, admittedly, and yes, I am impressed at Obama's oratorical skills, especially when we've had to wince every time the Current Occupant has opened his mouth in public and uttered some completely idiotic sounding malapropism that makes him sound like an uneducated fool.
But know this, RichM: I'm no youngster. I'm going to be 51 next month, I've voted in every single election cycle since turning 18, even if it's just for little local issues here where I live. I read everything carefully before casting my vote, even little local tax levies and little school board elections and such. I'm no fool when it comes to politics. I know how much even the seemingly littlest issues can affect my daily life. And I vote according to my conscience and what I know to be the right thing.
And that is why, tomorrow, I will cast my vote for Obama in the Ohio primary. I have to go with what feels right in my heart. Sure, as a woman, I'd love to see the ultimate glass ceiling finally broken, but this particular female candidate has too many liabilities against her that could lead to a Republican victory in November. I have to vote for the candidate who stands the best chance of beating McCain. I know that Obama isn't perfect, that I don't agree with each and every one of his platform stands, but his ideas are close enough for me not to hold my nose while voting for him.
That's my 2¢ on why I will cast my vote for Obama, for what it's worth.
Ok. You are a cynic, you are negative, and you disrespect the idealism of youth. Happy? I read CD often and am mostly nauseated by the quality of these discussions, including yours.
Were (Obama) to win, he would need to tap (his supporters') outrage at the pharmaceutical companies, Halliburton, lobbyists, Pentagon torturers and corporate tax-dodgers. He would need them sufficiently empowered to confront the banks over their lending practices, multinationals over outsourcing, and universities over rising fees...
- Forget it. Obama is not going to be confronting or drastically altering any of these powerful entities. Most of them are actually backing him, especially the banks & multinationals. His campaign is not about changing them or diminishing their power, but rather about creating a new more attractive public relations image for America that these entities (correctly) calculate will redound to their benefit. They are willing to take a lower profile for a while, in exchange for Obama's performing this service on their behalf.
I look forward to another highly entertaining day on the CD boards, hearing all the pro-Obama idiots yapping about the "hope" Obama inspires in them. Yesterday's thread by the silly & naive college student Ms. Woolman made me realize that there are actually two separate Obama discussions going on simultaneously. People who are in one of these discussions (ie, examining what Obama might try to change in terms of policy & the national power structure) cannot be heard by those in the other (which might be titled, "I want and need to feel hopeful about something -- and no one is going to take that away from me").
Please, just to start the day off right, someone attack me for being a cynic, too "negative," and for disrespecting the idealism of the youth, OK? Those are my favorites!
Just because the media consultant for Chicago's corrupt Daley Machine, former Chicago Tribune political reporter David Axelrod, has also been very successful at getting the U.S. corporate media to market U.S. Senate Foreign Relations member Obama as the next liberal saviour, doesn't mean an Obama Administration is going to change the U.S. establishment's foreign policy of "bipartisan militarism."
Why should people in the United States assume that an Obama administration which brings former Carter Administration nation security affairs advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski back into the White House will radically change the direction of U.S. foreign policy in a more pacifist direction?
When former Columbia University Professor Brzezinski was last in the White House, the Democratic Carter Administration supported the Shah of Iran, supported the Somoza dictatorship and initiated a covert war against Afghanistan that eventually led to U.S. military support for right-wing fundamentalists groups in the 1980s and early 1990s.
unionguy said "I do NOT see a review of voting records as the key factor here." I say people who vote based on image and ignore substance deserve the George W. Bushs and Ronald Reagans they elect. Voting for the least-worst candidate is one thing. But refusing to intelligently and soberly determine who the least-worst candidate is; that's unforgivable. Especially for anyone with the handle of unionguy.
I'll say one last thing about bandwagon voting. In Minnesota, ex-professional wrestler Jesse Ventura campaigned for Governor as a straight-talking guy, a blue collar "union member," and someone who represented an alternative to "politics as usual." College kids and young people jumped on the bandwagon and elected Ventura in an orgy of enthusiasm. But, Ventura governed as a Republican. He cut school funding to the bone and college tuition shot through the roof. When the college kids protested the tuition hikes and funding cuts at the state capitol, Ventura came down from his office to tell them they could go straight to Hell. I'll never forget the dropped jaws and stunned looks on those kids' faces. (Guess who the young, bandwagon voters in Minnesota went for this election cycle.)
As to SallyUUKent, I seriously doubt she is who she claims. She has repeatedly posted Clinton smears. Her "Ten Most Corrupt Politicians in 2007" smear of Hillary Clinton is beyond the pale. That particular smear originated with "Judicial Watch," the creation of extreme right-wing nut job, Richard Mellon Scaife. Read about it, below:
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Judicial_Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Sarah_Scaife_Foundation
vaudree, I finally got a chance to watch the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation broadcast you linked. You told me, "you've been had." The CBC explained to me that NAFTA is actually a GOOD thing for Americans, and therefor it is just FINE that Obama lied to Ohio voters (saying Hillary was right about renegotiating NAFTA, and that he too would renegotiate it) and then secretly told Canadian officials not to worry, it was only campaign rhetoric.
I had thought it was WRONG for Obama to be duplicitous and dishonest. But now I understand I'd "been had."
Bob K, Obama himself didn't meet with any Canadian officials -- that was his economic advisor Austin Goolsbee, who, BTW, is a very liberal economist at the University of Chicago -- and the statement from the Canadian Embassy in Chicago confirms that there was no difference between what Obama was saying in public and what Goolsbee said in private. There was, then, no duplicity on the content of the meeting, only that Obama was not aware of the meeting between Goolsbee and the Canadian officials.