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America in Decline
“It is a common theme” that the United States, which “only a few years ago was hailed to stride the world as a colossus with unparalleled power and unmatched appeal is in decline, ominously facing the prospect of its final decay,” Giacomo Chiozza writes in the current Political Science Quarterly.
The theme is indeed widely believed. And with some reason, though a number of qualifications are in order. To start with, the decline has proceeded since the high point of U.S. power after World War II, and the remarkable triumphalism of the post-Gulf War ’90s was mostly self-delusion.
Another common theme, at least among those who are not willfully blind, is that American decline is in no small measure self-inflicted. The comic opera in Washington this summer, which disgusts the country and bewilders the world, may have no analogue in the annals of parliamentary democracy.
The spectacle is even coming to frighten the sponsors of the charade. Corporate power is now concerned that the extremists they helped put in office may in fact bring down the edifice on which their own wealth and privilege relies, the powerful nanny state that caters to their interests.
Corporate power’s ascendancy over politics and society—by now mostly financial—has reached the point that both political organizations, which at this stage barely resemble traditional parties, are far to the right of the population on the major issues under debate.
For the public, the primary domestic concern is unemployment. Under current circumstances, that crisis can be overcome only by a significant government stimulus, well beyond the recent one, which barely matched decline in state and local spending—though even that limited initiative probably saved millions of jobs.
For financial institutions the primary concern is the deficit. Therefore, only the deficit is under discussion. A large majority of the population favor addressing the deficit by taxing the very rich (72 percent, 27 percent opposed), reports a Washington Post-ABC News poll. Cutting health programs is opposed by overwhelming majorities (69 percent Medicaid, 78 percent Medicare). The likely outcome is therefore the opposite.
The Program on International Policy Attitudes surveyed how the public would eliminate the deficit. PIPA director Steven Kull writes, “Clearly both the administration and the Republican-led House (of Representatives) are out of step with the public’s values and priorities in regard to the budget.”
The survey illustrates the deep divide: “The biggest difference in spending is that the public favored deep cuts in defense spending, while the administration and the House propose modest increases. The public also favored more spending on job training, education and pollution control than did either the administration or the House.”
The final “compromise”—more accurately, capitulation to the far right—is the opposite throughout, and is almost certain to lead to slower growth and long-term harm to all but the rich and the corporations, which are enjoying record profits.
Not even discussed is that the deficit would be eliminated if, as economist Dean Baker has shown, the dysfunctional privatized health care system in the U.S. were replaced by one similar to other industrial societies’, which have half the per capita costs and health outcomes that are comparable or better.
The financial institutions and Big Pharma are far too powerful for such options even to be considered, though the thought seems hardly Utopian. Off the agenda for similar reasons are other economically sensible options, such as a small financial transactions tax.
Meanwhile new gifts are regularly lavished on Wall Street. The House Appropriations Committee cut the budget request for the Securities and Exchange Commission, the prime barrier against financial fraud. The Consumer Protection Agency is unlikely to survive intact.
Congress wields other weapons in its battle against future generations. Faced with Republican opposition to environmental protection, American Electric Power, a major utility, shelved “the nation’s most prominent effort to capture carbon dioxide from an existing coal-burning power plant, dealing a severe blow to efforts to rein in emissions responsible for global warming,” The New York Times reported.
The self-inflicted blows, while increasingly powerful, are not a recent innovation. They trace back to the 1970s, when the national political economy underwent major transformations, ending what is commonly called “the Golden Age” of (state) capitalism.
Two major elements were financialization (the shift of investor preference from industrial production to so-called FIRE: finance, insurance, real estate) and the offshoring of production. The ideological triumph of “free market doctrines,” highly selective as always, administered further blows, as they were translated into deregulation, rules of corporate governance linking huge CEO rewards to short-term profit, and other such policy decisions.
The resulting concentration of wealth yielded greater political power, accelerating a vicious cycle that has led to extraordinary wealth for a fraction of 1 percent of the population, mainly CEOs of major corporations, hedge fund managers and the like, while for the large majority real incomes have virtually stagnated.
In parallel, the cost of elections skyrocketed, driving both parties even deeper into corporate pockets. What remains of political democracy has been undermined further as both parties have turned to auctioning congressional leadership positions, as political economist Thomas Ferguson outlines in the Financial Times.
“The major political parties borrowed a practice from big box retailers like Walmart, Best Buy or Target,” Ferguson writes. “Uniquely among legislatures in the developed world, U.S. congressional parties now post prices for key slots in the lawmaking process.” The legislators who contribute the most funds to the party get the posts.
The result, according to Ferguson, is that debates “rely heavily on the endless repetition of a handful of slogans that have been battle-tested for their appeal to national investor blocs and interest groups that the leadership relies on for resources.” The country be damned.
Before the 2007 crash for which they were largely responsible, the new post-Golden Age financial institutions had gained startling economic power, more than tripling their share of corporate profits. After the crash, a number of economists began to inquire into their function in purely economic terms. Nobel laureate Robert Solow concludes that their general impact may be negative: “The successes probably add little or nothing to the efficiency of the real economy, while the disasters transfer wealth from taxpayers to financiers.”
By shredding the remnants of political democracy, the financial institutions lay the basis for carrying the lethal process forward—as long as their victims are willing to suffer in silence.


107 Comments so far
Show AllI say Obama does an executive directive to take over some factories. This would be in order to begin a massive push to make solar panesl, wind turbines, geothermal equipment and tidal energy equipment. This would be jobs jobs and more jobs.... and we would be using the LAST BIT OF OIL WE HAVE FOR SOMETHING MEANINGFUL.......while putting people to work.... SCREW THE REPUGS ....... State owned energy companies to create an energy foundation for a future based on egalitarian distribution of clean energy... Of course, we would not have the enormous amounts of energy we have now..... renewables would require a whole new way of living, but we would have some electricity.... This equipment would be disbursed in a way to help anyone who couldn'e afford it...... Some kind of plane along these liness would help bring about a future we could actually live in....
"By shredding the remnants of political democracy, the financial institutions lay the basis for carrying the lethal process forward—as long as their victims are willing to suffer in silence." & what by chance would the good Prof. have us all do? March around Euro style maybe burn a few banks? The elites couldn't care less. I'm going sailing today with one of them and I'll ask him what he thinks about how us antz should conduct ourselves now that we've arrived at the world as its portrayed in the 80's kult klassix "BRAZIL." I'm sure he'll advise I buy as the market collapses and then I go shopping. ( with what is another ?)
Noam Chomsky does his part by writing books and articles that analyze and dissect what is going on. He has dedicated his life to doing this, and he does it well. With all due respect, I don't think it's his job to tell you how to leave the world better than you found it. That is your challenge, your adventure, your cross to bear, so to speak.
Sailboats are wonderful places to ask big questions - you can see long distances over the water, and ask yourself: what is something I can do now that will make a difference, and which uses the skills, abilities, experience and contacts that I currently have? (It might be something you know or do that you take for granted, because you do it well naturally, without much effort.)
Seaglass, I know you can do something. Please don't let Chomsky's correct analysis and elite sailors' shopping advice paralyze you. :)
Actually, people have asked Chomsky what we need to do and he usually answers - "Organize".
"Organize"? I suggest some creative (individual) monkey wrenching until some believable and creditable individuals or groups appear. (No, the one gearing-up in Wisconsin (for a price) doesn't quality.) Anything remotely connected to the democrats is DOA.
Chomsky advocates "organize", I agree. Organize on a local level to provide local, sustainable goods and services. STARVE THE BEAST! Don't work for corporations, don't buy from corporations/big box stores, don't watch tv. Create and participate in your own local culture/economy. Live Simply that others may simply live.
You get the idea. Start today, attend a local farmer's market. Make something to trade or barter yourself.
Wonderful comment, esabi.
Agreed, and the same regarding maritimus49.
I'm not sure about the decline of the American Empire, but the American economic system is in decline which will surely lead to the decline of the empire. Since Reagan the economic situation for the middle class has steadily declined. Money has been flowing to the top at a rapid pace leaving those on the lower end with less money and shittier jobs. I recently had a conversation with a young man who worked for a large corporation in one of their retail outlets. He had a college education but so far has been unable to find work commensurate with his educational and skill level. He's paid $10.00 per hour, works 6 days a week, no holidays, no vacation or sick leave, no healthcare and no retirement program of any kind. If he gets sick and misses a days work, he's docked a days pay. This is what the future looks like for the majority of the middle and lower economic classes. The republicans are hell bent on destroying all the safety nets and access to health care for all but the rich. All will be expected to die on the job - still slaving for the man because he has no other choice.
Sorry, I think it is a valid question. If the people of this country were to engage in massive civil disobedience, the reaction of the elites would be swift and violent - they arent militarizing the police in this country just for kicks, they are preparing for social unrest in a big way. If Mr. Chomsky is going to berate people for suffering in silence he can at least be honest enough to talk about why this goes on and talk about the inevitable violent reaction the elites will display toward any REAL uprising by the people of this country.
In other words, if behooves him to talk about all of this as a part of preparing people for the consequences of any REAL progressive uprising. Do you forget Kent State? The 68 Democratic Convention? Those were Girl Scout picnics compared to what will happen if the people of this country really engage in REAL social disobedience.
That's why we all need to go out and buy the best rifle, maybe two or three, that you can afford. You could throw in a shotgun too. Cool thing is we can still buy all the guns we want and all the ammo to go with it, it's still a free country, as far as guns go. Then when the citizens are all heavily armed, we can "pretend" to be engaging in civil disobedience and when the jackboots try to move in, bam, out comes the citizen army. Nothing like the element of surprise. Once the thugs are neutralized, then it's on to the banks. To heck with this "European style marching around" shit. We're Americans, damn it.
Not sure if your sarcasm generator is on or off. What I am talking about is rather simple. I am talking about if millions of people are in the streets demanding change and the situation gets out of hand one way or another. When people have no job, no money and no health care, they are going to think twice about going into the street in mass protest and risking being permanently maimed.
As it is, people with jobs are afraid of getting fired if they were to engage in even relatively mild street protest.
This is something Noam Chomsky has never had to worry about. He himself has said that his upper-middle class and professional status have immunized him from serious threat. He could write and still never worry about losing his job at MIT, and if he had, he has family and an extensive social network that would take care of him, not to mention proceeds from book sales. Few of his readers are so positioned.
In Chomsky's early days he did risk his job and position by being one of the earliest demonstrators against the fledgling war in Vietnam, at a time when hardly anyone had heard of Vietnam. Since then he has done what he does best and that is to research and expose the Empire for what it is, and he has been relentless. It's not up to him to hold our hands and explain what we should do about it, that's up to you and me. I agree with you that mass demonstrations could lead to violent crackdowns. But power does not yield without a fight. Waiting patiently for a compassionate dictator is not my style. I'm an advocate of non violent disobedience and believe in it's effectiveness. But I'm not opposed to defending myself and loved ones from a brutal regime.
Non-violent civil disobedience that will actually have some chance of accomplishing anything would have to be of such an intensity that it could easily end in violence. If all of you actually read my post, you'd see that what I said was that if Chomsky is going advocate that people rise up and do something, then it behooves him to go into the issue I raised. Read the damn post before you all shoot your mouths off! Sheesh!
And, give me some CONCRETE examples of what to do, not vague generalities. He's not "explaining what we should do" because he has no answers and it would be damn refreshing to hear a writer here freakin admit it instead of repeating the same old platitudes for 20, 30, 40 years.
Yes, what you are talking is simple: fear and cowardice.
"When people have no job, no money and no health care, they are going to think twice about going into the street in mass protest and risking being permanently maimed. "
Alternatively, when people have no job, no money, no health care, they have nothing to lose, so they go out onto the street and risk being maimed. Those who DO have something to lose, say, nice cushy middle class jobs, will stay at home.
"As it is, people with jobs are afraid of getting fired if they were to engage in even relatively mild street protest."
But you said they have no jobs. Which is it?
When people have children that could become orphaned they still have something to lose.
And when people have nothing to lose and are desperate, THAT is when things will likely spiral out of control into violence. And what I said was that if Chomsky wants to be a responsible writer, then he needs to talk about the consequences of REAL and effective social disobedience.
And if Chomsky and others at his level have no "fear and cowardice" - what a laugh! - they would be doing one hell of a lot more than writing the same old tired articles over and over again for decades! So, why doesnt he OPENLY advocate total revolution, if things are as bad as he says they are? Since everything else has failed miserably, what is stopping him? Why dont YOU start openly advocating total revolution at work, online and everywhere? What's stopping you? .
Shotgun for sure since it will get to be close range really fast in the few minutes you will have before the highlytrained and immensely armed "jackboots" move in.
You do not have a clue what you would be up against.
"Sorry, I think it is a valid question. If the people of this country were to engage in massive civil disobedience, the reaction of the elites would be swift and violent - they arent militarizing the police in this country just for kicks, they are preparing for social unrest in a big way. If Mr. Chomsky is going to berate people for suffering in silence he can at least be honest enough to talk about why this goes on and talk about the inevitable violent reaction the elites will display toward any REAL uprising by the people of this country."
Yes, because the elites in ANY country do not react violently do civil disobedience.
Furthermore, what is your alternative to civil disobedience? Sit on your hands in fear. mmmmmkay.
The question is what IS EFFECTIVE civil disobedience that would actually be able to pressure the elites into backing down and giving people real power? So far, everything tried in this country has failed. Vietnam ended, but the elites survived and roared back stronger than ever.
Good one, Dave, thank you. Too many people on this site rip into writers because they didn't write the article the poster thought they should have written. It becomes tedious.
You can either throw a wrench into the machine or you can be ground into profitburger. WTF do you think you should be doing? Getting a job for S&P, perhaps?
"profitburger".....hey, I laughed. thanks for that.
What your rich friend does or does not care about does not much matter. The point of public action is to take power, not convince those who hold it.
For something like half a century, Chomsky has made it unusually clear what he would have us do. Try www.chomsky.info if you do wish to know. And dig into a couple of the more thoroughly prepared books if you want sources and documentation for the observations as well: he doesn't put the big academic bibliography into every book; many of them are transcripts of speeches and interviews.
Chomsky's idea of how to progress certainly does not involve "Ooh, I'm a radical" cartoon-style, dismissable bank-burnings. Sure the rich folks who own banks would care, but, again, that does not much help.
No, it is nonviolent public action that has worked time and time again (albeit not always and not always completely, but no one has parted the Red Sea for departing slaves for a good long time now). Sure that involves marching, and yes Europeans have done that and some other things better than Americans have for a good few decades now. That's why they have health care that we (USA-ans) do not, vacations that we do not, educational opportunities that we can only achieve at great financial sacrifice, greatly reduced crime, longer lives, and better families--if we can judge that last from the well being of children.
But that is not *just* marching, though it sure is not just sitting.
Go ahead and have fun sailing,,,enjoy the surf.
There is no intellectual answer to Noam's observations and conclusions so, how about a song. Do you recognize it?
.
. boom chick chick, boom chick chick
. boom chick chick BOOM,
Carnivals and cotton candy
Carousels and calliopes
Fortune-tellers in glass cases
We will always remember these
Merry-go-rounds quickly turning
Quickly turning for you and me
And the whole world madly turning
Turning, turning 'till you can't see
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
And now we go around
Again we go around
And now we spin around
We're high above the ground
And down again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
We're on a Ferris wheel
A crazy Ferris wheel
A wheel within a wheel
And suddenly we feel
The stars begin to reel
And down again around
And up again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
Carnivals and cotton candy
Carousels and calliopes
Crazy clowns chasing brass rings
Soda pop and rock-candy trees
Merry-go-rounds quickly turning
Quickly turning for you and me
And the whole world madly turning
Turning, turning 'till you can't see
(picking up speed)
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
And now we go around
Again we go around
And now we spin around
We're high above the ground
And down again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
We're on a Ferris wheel
A crazy Ferris wheel
A wheel within a wheel
And suddenly we feel
The stars begin to reel
And down again around
And up again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
And now we go around
Again we go around
And now we spin around
We're high above the ground
And down again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
Carnivals and cotton candy
Carousels and calliopes
Kewpie-dolls with painted faces
Tricky shell games and missing peas
Merry-go-rounds quickly turning
Quickly turning for you and me
And the whole world madly turning
Turning, turning 'till you can't see
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
And now we go around
Again we go around
And now we spin around
We're high above the ground
And down again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
We're on a Ferris wheel
A crazy Ferris wheel
A wheel within a wheel
And suddenly we feel
The stars begin to reel
And down again around
And up again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
And now we go around
Again we go around
And now we spin around
We're high above the ground
And down again around
And up again around
So high above the ground
We feel we've got to yell
We're on a carousel
A crazy carousel
La, la, la, la - la, la, la, la
La, la, la - la, la, la, la, la - la!
.
Jacques Brel is Alive & Well & Living in Paris
Trylon
Peace brother, you are the smart one, but we are Americans, we have nuts that run around campaining to become President of The United States that hate their government and who wants to take his state out of the union in the form of succession. And a front-runner that thinks that corporations are people, too. The sad thing is those are the nuts that will get voted into the most powerful office in the free world. I wish that I could speak to a sleeping giant; the people of this nation. But it is hard to wake up a giant from a deep slumber, however, when the giant wakes up, it will make Britton look like a bunch of kids at a college bonfire...the crazies are running the asylum. If I could speak to a sleeping giant; I would tell him that he has to clean out the nest of rats in our nation's capital and highest court, our leaders are corrupt; and as Dylan Ratigan said last week "Our Politians Are Bought And Paid For". That was the last time he has been seen on his show, the truth is not tolerated in the land of The National Rifle Association, and the nation where half of it's political party sign Pledges to wallstreet lobbyist, (Thanks to Grover Norquist) the most powerful man in Washington, DC. If I could speak to a sleeping giant; I would tell him to call a press conference, invite the worlds press, and the American People to join the awakened Giant and I in reciting { I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE TO THE FLAG Of THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND TO THE REPUBLIC FOR WHICH IT STANDS, ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, INDIVISIBLE, WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL}. And for half the congress to have signed any other pledge is subversion from within the halls liberty. These lawmaker's would have been taken out and shot had this occurred during the time of this nation's forefathers... Just Sayin...
If we live in a democracy, how is it that the "elected" officials act against our interests? Nope - this is a fake democracy to keep us acquiescent.
"The US economy has disintegrated, and with it into the abyss plummet the blueprints of neoliberal economists, whose theories about "the free market" have now gone the way of medieval alchemy.
http://www.amazon.ca/How-Economy-Was-Lost-Worlds/dp/1849350078
by paul craig roberts
Paul Craig Roberts was assistant secretary of the Treasury during President Reagan’s first term. He was associate editor of The Wall Street Journal and has held numerous academic appointments, including the William E. Simon Chair, Center for Strategic and International Studies, Georgetown University; and Senior Research Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University
full disclosure: i am a big fan of prof chomsky - he has taught me a lot of things and his work speaks for itself
same goes for dr roberts
here's my problem
both these guys assume that what has gone on in america has been properly described by the media and the academia whose job it was to assess these issues
it doesn't take into account that the history of the country was in fact a designed policy whose very aim was to create the dystopia with we live today
dystopia:
"The word 'dystopia' is the commonly used antonym of 'eutopia' [i.e. utopia] and denotes that class of hypothetical societies containing images of worlds worse than our own. [...] Dystopian images are almost invariably images of future society, pointing fearfully at the way the world is supposedly going in order to provide urgent propaganda for a change in direction."
"[...] dystopian fiction looks at totalitarian dictatorship as its prototype, a society that puts its whole population continuously on trial, a society that finds its essence in concentration camps, that is, in disenfranchising and enslaving entire classes of its own citizens, a society that, by glorifying and justifying violence by law, preys upon itself. [...] dystopian society is what we would today call dysfunctional; it reveals the lack of the very qualities that traditionally justify or set the raison d'être for a community."
america has been ruined by design
"The Council on Foreign Relations…is the House of the secret government here in the U.S, the Trilateral Commission is the Senate here in America, and the Bilderbergers are the criminal headquarters of the entire program.
Find out how the sovereignty of the US is being subordinated to global interests: foundations at the Presidio, United Nations, Chinese interests, Panama Canal.
See how the United Nations indoctrinates our children."
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/america-destroyed-by-design/ - this is a good film you can watch on the site
this from the council on foreign relations own website, one of their own papers
"This Working Paper by Nobel Laureate Michael Spence and Sandile Hlatshwayo is a detailed examination of the changing shape of the American economy and the effect of these changes on the labor market and the cost of goods. Spence and Hlatshwayo focus on trends in value added per employee in the tradable and nontradable sectors over the past twenty years.
They note that the American economy has seen the lower and middle components of the value-added chain moving to the rapidly growing markets abroad and warn that soon higher-paying jobs may follow low-paying jobs in leaving the United States. The actions of the free market have made goods less expensive for Americans, but the free flow of labor and capital has also diminished the employment opportunities available in the United States and will, the authors warn, continue to do so at all levels of society. Spence and Hlatshwayo suggest that policymakers acknowledge the trade-off between the cost of goods and the availability of jobs, and they explore policies that may improve it. While the authors acknowledge that there is no simple policy fix to improve the trade-off between inexpensive goods and diminished domestic job opportunities, they argue that given the political salience of the issues at stake, policymakers must work to tackle this enormous question of inequality and economic distribution."
http://www.cfr.org/industrial-policy/evolving-structure-american-economy-employment-challenge/p24366
a review of the report from the washington post:
By Steven Pearlstein, Published: March 12
Here are four things you often hear asserted about the economy. Guess which ones are wrong:
l The major reason job growth has been so slow is that there wasn’t enough fiscal stimulus.
l Off-shoring creates more jobs at home than it kills.
l Industrial policy always fails.
l Globalization is not a major contributor to rising income inequality.
In fact, all four statements are wrong. And now Michael Spence has the proof.
Spence is former dean of the Stanford Graduate School of Business, former dean of Harvard’s faculty of arts and sciences and a world-class economist with a John Bates Clark medal and Nobel prize. And last week, Spence was in Washington to make a presentation at a high-powered conference organized by the International Monetary Fund. The moment I heard it, I knew he was on to something important."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/key-to-job-growth-equality-is-boosting-tradable-sector-of-economy/2011/03/08/AB3sPJS_story.html
under the heading of "how's this for irony" from drudge
"Mexican Jobs Draw Immigrants Home
There are fewer illegal immigrants in California because of job and educational opportunities in Mexico, the Sacramento Bee reports. "It's now easier to buy homes on credit, find a job and access higher education in Mexico," Sacramento's Mexican consul general, Carlos Gonzalez Gutierrez, said Wednesday. "We have become a middle-class country." Mexico's unemployment rate is now 4.9 percent, compared with 9.4 percent in the United States."
http://www.drudge.com/news/146761/mexican-jobs-draw-immigrants-home
ouch!
if we could only do as good as mexico
soon we'll be paying human traffickers to sneak us down to mexico where we can steal their jobs by working for even less than the mexicans do
usa usa usa usa
You're too cool for school, med.
Noam Chomsky in Cologne, Germany on June 14, 2011:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBZ-NvbZWH8
Sorry Noam,
I just don't get you. With all your high and mighty intelligence you turned your back on Nader. Tell me you really thought Bama was a thoughtful choice, given your insight? Yeah, right.
Jessica, good point. I knew BO was a bad choice and Noam is a lot more intelligent than me! Also, why does Chomsky still believe the 911 canard? WTC #7 is definitely the smoking gun, but he seems to still buy the official con theory.
Actually, I believe that Chomsky, living in the safe state of Massachusetts, probably voted for Nader - if he voted at all (he's an anarcho-syndicalist).
He did not "turn his back" on Nader. That is nonsense.
What Chomsky has said is that electoral politics should be a very minor part,a rather inconsequential part, of what we do. Real change happens in the streets. However, considering that voting only takes a few minutes, we should vote for the alternative the capitalists offer us that is likely to do a bit less damage - then get on with the more important stuff. If you lived in certain too-close-to-call-states, given the information available to us in 2008, than the incrementally less damaging choice was Obama. And even today, I'd say there is still a 50% probability if McCain was elected, things would today be incrementally worse.
I voted for Nader, but then I live in Pennsylvania. And, I would have voted for Nader if I lived in Texas. But If I lived in, say, Virginia, It is likely that I would have voted for Obama. No, I don't like the absurd system that forces me to make such bizarre choices - a system that should be the laughingstock of the world, but it is the the only system we have until we get in the streets and change it.
Good post.
pjd412, I would argue that we might be better off with McCain rather than Obomber. Because Obomber wears the (D) label, millions of liberals fall asleep and stop protesting wars, torture, preventive detention, warrantless surveillance, attacks on Social Security, etc. etc.
So your summary of Chomsky's position, which is accurate, only reveals it to be another form of lesser-evilism. It is impossible to ever build a third party if we are guided by lesser evilism, because rather than voting FOR your principles, lesser-evilism mandates voting AGAINST the candidate perceived as most evil.
But Chomsky's position is contradictory. If the most consequential metric of political involvement are street protests, we were better off under Bush. If voting for Obomber dramatically reduced street protests, then one must conclude it would have been better to not vote for him, regardless of what state one was in, and that in fact we would be better off with McCain.
I would argue that a President McCain might very well have the US at war with Iran today and in an even more miserable state than it is today.
Probably be in Iran by October. So not much difference
Chomsky is right that electoral -- especially presidential -- politics is minor as a means of bringing about progressive change. Thanks for clarifying that.
Americans are saddled with a political system that, whether it was the original intention or not, has turned the country into a plutocracy. I hope the Left will cease using "constitutionalism" as anything but a defense tactic when civil liberties are threatened, and begin rethinking the constitutional arrangements that have been so crucial in giving political power to the rich and selfish, while marginalizing the rest of the people.
Back in the last Great Depression, the American Communist Party was an important component of the wider progressive movement, in spite of being under the thumb of Stalin. Now, with no Stalin around, maybe it's time to refound the American Communist tradition of organized, radical action. The spectre of Communism -- not Leninism, with its top down, militaristic ways -- needs to haunt the arrogant, ruthless bastards who now run America. Imagine a Communism that is radical, modern, democratic, multicultural and multiethnic, internationlist, connected and organized. "They say i'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one". Or so I hope.
Leezasky wrote:
Back in the last Great Depression, the American Communist Party was an important component of the wider progressive movement, in spite of being under the thumb of Stalin. Now, with no Stalin around, maybe it's time to refound the American Communist tradition of organized, radical action.
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My Reply:
The Communist Party USA is still around. Gus Hall used to be their quadrennial candidate for president. I don't know whether or not they have bothered to run anyone in recent years.
I'll stick with the Green Party. (www.gp.org)
But here is the link to the CPU USA website:
URL: www.cpusa.org/
You might consider also: Socialist Party USA
URL:http://sp-usa.org/
" a system that should be the laughingstock of the world.."
the 2000 election was spieled as "Decision 2000".
my final take was a more accurate "Derision 2000."
"pjd412"
You make many assumptions and you seem to like to strategize.
Do you have any proof to support your assumptions?
No.
McCain and Obama represent the same interests and they are not the interests of the majority of people.
Other than the fact that you say that you voted for Nader, your thinking is typical Clintonian deviousness which promotes a lack of convictions and which keeps people supporting a corrupt system.
i agree with u. To the streets, no whining-unite and action against the takeover of our democracy by the system of legalized corruption. we've got millions who are are on our side.
pjd412 wrote:
I voted for Nader, but then I live in Pennsylvania. And, I would have voted for Nader if I lived in Texas. But If I lived in, say, Virginia, It is likely that I would have voted for Obama. No, I don't like the absurd system that forces me to make such bizarre choices - a system that should be the laughingstock of the world, but it is the the only system we have until we get in the streets and change it.
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My Reply:
State legislatures determine what voting procedures are used in state and national elections.
So, get together with other people and get into the streets and demand in every way you can imagine that Plurality Voting be replaced by Category Scale Power Voting.
Of course, the Electoral College should be abolished too.
But absent the abolition of the Electoral College . . .
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Representative Democracy - The Power of the Boss
Category Scale Power Voting (CSPV)
Example Ballot 1: (What pjd412’s Virginia CSPV ballot might have looked like.)
2008 Presidential Election
Candidate Most Oppose Oppose No Comment Support Most Support
Barack Obama X
John McCain X
Ralph Nader X
Cynthia McKinney X
Bob Barr X
Chuck Baldwin X
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Category Scale Power Voting (CSPV)
Example Ballot 2: (What pjd412’s CSPV ballot might have looked like elsewhere.)
2008 Presidential Election
Candidate Most Oppose Oppose No Comment Support Most Support
Barack Obama X
John McCain X
Ralph Nader X
Cynthia McKinney X
Bob Barr X
Chuck Baldwin X
Agree with you, Jessia. Time to stop playing political games and vote your conscience--and, in my case, that was Nader.
All empires decline when greed and hubris are rampant in the ruling class.
I agree with you Jessia. Noam's voting for Obomber was a mistake, and a contradictory position. See my post above.
Much like the fall of the Roman Republic, it is the Patricians who have engineered this calamity through their rapaciousness that no knows no bounds.
NateW,
This is an excellent analogy that the late political scientist Chalmers Johnson proffered in his excellent Blowback trilogy. It should be emphasized that the Patricians who engineered the decline of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire were militarists. The Roman Senate abdicated power to these militarists. This lead to a brief dictatorship under Julius Caesar, followed by the dictatorship of the triumvirates, and ultimately dictatorship under Augustus and subsequent emperors.
Much like the Roman Republic, America's militarism and imperial over reach are leading to its decline.
The collapse of the Roman Republic was for more complex than your simplistic analysis.
The entire system of the Republic was dysfunctional, from conception, much like the American republic, see for example the "tribal" system of voting. Does that remind you of anything in the American electoral system, like say, oh, the Electoral College, or perhaps the American Senate?. Attempts at reform, even by some Patricians, were resisted tooth and nail, by those who controlled the power, the capital, whether Patrician or Plebeian.
For example, New Man Gaius Marius (maternal uncle of Gaius Julius Caesar) was NOT patrician, he was a very very rich plebeian, owning huge tracts of farmland farmed by slaves. He was a militarist, in fact, he was the prime mover of the change in the Republican military system that led to soldiers being loyal to their general, like him, instead of the state (the recruitment of soldiers from very poor backgrounds, with the result that they depended on their general to supply them, and then, to find them land to farm and settle on after they retired). It was him, and his (patrician) rival Lucius Cornelius Sulla, who set the examples for all the other militarists who came after them, whether patrician or plebeian.
Furthermore, the Roman Republic collapsed, but was replaced by the Empire. It would be far more apposite to compare America to the Empire, and its collapse, especially vis a vis military / imperial oversstretch. The Roman Empire got too big, decided to greedily fight too many wars, specifically against the Parthians / Sassanids (who were no barbarians / small state to be easily crushed, but, another major civilisation / empire in their own right), thus, spending a lot of money, and young men, fighting a distant war, while internal roads, internal infrastructure, and the internal trade that depended on that infrastructure, and that tax revenues from that trade, collapsed. Sound familiar?
rlof,
The intent of my post was not to provide an exhaustive analysis of the factors that were operative in the decline of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire.
I am well aware of the dysfunction that existed within the Roman Republic. The parallels of dysfunction that you pointed out between the Roman Republic and the American Republic is because the Founding Father's knew their ancient history and based our government on aspects of the Roman Republic that they admired such the bicameral system of the Senate, and Consul. The American office of the president is based loosely on the Roman Republic's office of the Consul.
The sad affair of Tiberius Gracchus and Gaius Gracchus, who's efforts at promoting reform on behalf of the Republic's citizenry resulted in their horrific deaths, is an example of the resistance that you pointed out was exercised by those who controlled power.
I concur with your analysis of the role that Marius' creation of a professional army played in the decline of the Roman Republic. Your comments on Sulla are spot on. Suetonius wrote that Julius Caesar criticized Sulla for abdicating his dictatorship.
I also stated that the chronology of the collapse of the Roman Republic was that it went through a transition of dictatorship under Julius Caesar, two triumvirates, followed by empire and dictatorship under Augustus and subsequent emperors.
Again, if you have read the works of the late political scientist Chalmers Johnson, it should be apparent that I was simply restating his theory. In his Blowback trilogy, Professor Johnson, posits that the American republic is in decline like the late Roman Republic.
Professor Johnson's view was that if the United States did not make specific changes such as limiting the pernicious influence of the military-industrial-complex on our government, abolish its global network of military bases, abolish its standing armies, and abolish many of its intelligence agencies-particularly the CIA-it will suffer the fate of the late Roman Republic. The United States will lose it's democracy and like the Roman Republic become an empire or authoritarian military dictatorship.
See the Chalmers Johnson interview: Decline of Empires: The Signs of Decay at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2CCs-x9q9U