Iran and Leftist Confusion
When I returned from covering the Iranian elections recently, I was surprised to find my email box filled with progressive authors, academics and bloggers bending themselves into knots about the current crisis in Iran. They cite the long history of U.S. interference in Iran and conclude that the current unrest there must be sponsored or manipulated by the Empire.
That comes as quite a shock to those risking their lives daily on the streets of major Iranian cities fighting for political, social and economic justice.
Some of these authors have even cited my book, The Iran Agenda, as a source to prove U.S. meddling. Whoa there, pardner. Now we're getting personal.
The large majority of American people, particularly leftists and progressives, are sympathetic to the demonstrators in Iran, oppose Iranian government repression and also oppose any U.S. military or political interference in that country. But a small and vocal number of progressives are questioning that view, including authors writing for Monthly Review online, Foreign Policy Journal, and prominent academics such as retired professor James Petras.
They mostly argue by analogy. They correctly cite numerous examples of CIA efforts to overthrow governments, sometimes by manipulating mass demonstrations. But past practice is no proof that it's happening in this particular case. Frankly, the multi-class character of the most recent demonstrations, which arose quickly and spontaneously, were beyond the control of the reformist leaders in Iran, let alone the CIA.
Let's assume for the moment that the U.S. was trying to secretly manipulate the demonstrations for its own purposes. Did it succeed? Or were the protests reflecting 30 years of cumulative anger at a reactionary system that oppresses workers, women, and ethnic minorities, indeed the vast majority of Iranians? Is President Mahmood Ahmadinejad a "nationalist-populist," as claimed by some, and therefore an ally against U.S. domination around the world? Or is he a repressive, authoritarian leader who actually hurts the struggle against U.S. hegemony?
Let's take a look. But first a quick note.
As far as I can tell none of these leftist critics have actually visited Iran, at least not to report on the recent uprisings. Of course, one can have an opinion about a country without first-hand experience there. But in the case of recent events in Iran, it helps to have met people. It helps a lot.
The left-wing Doubting Thomas arguments fall into three broad categories.
1. Assertion: President Mahmood Ahmadinejad won the election, or at a minimum, the opposition hasn't proved otherwise.
Michael Veiluva, Counsel at the Western States Legal Foundation (representing his own views) wrote on the Monthly Review website:
"[U.S. peace groups] are quick to denounce the elections as ‘massively fraudulent' and generally subscribe to the ‘mad mullah' stereotype of the current political system in Iran. There is a remarkable convergence between the tone of these statements and the American right who are hypocritically beating their chests over Iran's ‘stolen' election.
Bartle Professor (Emeritus) of Sociology at Binghamton University, New York, James Petras wrote:
"[N]ot a single shred of evidence in either written or observational form has been presented either before or a week after the vote count. During the entire electoral campaign, no credible (or even dubious) charge of voter tampering was raised."
Actually, Iranians themselves were very worried about election fraud prior to the vote count. When I covered the 2005 elections, Ahmadinejad barely edged out Mehdi Karoubi in the first round of elections. Karoubi raised substantive arguments that he was robbed of his place in the runoff due to vote fraud. But under Iran's clerical system, there's no meaningful appeal. So, as he put it, he took his case to God.
On the day of the 2009 election, election officials illegally barred many opposition observers from the polls. The opposition had planned to use text messaging to communicate local vote tallies to a central location. The government shut down SMS messaging! So the vote count was entirely dependent on a government tally by officials sympathetic to the incumbent.
I heard many anecdotal accounts of voting boxes arriving pre-stuffed and of more ballots being printed than are accounted for in the official registration numbers. It seems unlikely that the Iranian government will allow meaningful appeals or investigations into the various allegations about vote rigging.
A study by two professors at Chatham House and the Institute of Iranian Studies at University of St. Andrews, Scotland, took a close look at the official election results and found some major discrepancies. For Ahmadinejad to have sustained his massive victory in one third of Iran's provinces, he would have had to carry all his supporters, all new voters, all voters previously voting centrist and about 44% of previous reformist voters.
Keep in mind that Ahmadinejad's victory takes place in the context of a highly rigged system. The Guardian Council determines which candidates may run based on their Islamic qualifications. As a result, no woman has ever been allowed to campaign for president and sitting members of parliament were disqualified because they had somehow become un-Islamic.
The constitution of Iran created an authoritarian theocracy in which various elements of the ruling elite could fight out their differences, sometimes through elections and parliamentary debate, sometimes through violent repression. Iran is a classic example of how a country can have competitive elections without being democratic.
2. Assertion: The U.S. has a long history of meddling in Iran, so it must be behind the current unrest.
Jeremy R. Hammond writes in the progressive website Foreign Policy Journal:
"[G]iven the record of U.S. interference in the state affairs of Iran and clear policy of regime change, it certainly seems possible, even likely, that the U.S. had a significant role to play in helping to bring about the recent turmoil in an effort to undermine the government of the Islamic Republic.
Eric Margolis, a columnist for Quebecor Media Company in Canada and a contributor to The Huffington Post, wrote:
"While the majority of protests we see in Tehran are genuine and spontaneous, Western intelligence agencies and media are playing a key role in sustaining the uprising and providing communications, including the newest electronic method, via Twitter. These are covert techniques developed by the US during recent revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pro-US governments to power."
Both authors cite numerous cases of the U.S. using covert means to overthrow legitimate governments. The CIA engineered large demonstrations, along with assassinations and terrorist bombings, to cause confusion and overthrow the parliamentary government of Iran' Prime Minister Mohammad Mossadegh in 1953. The U.S. used similar methods in an effort to overthrow Hugo Chavez in Venezuela in 2002. (For more details, see my book, Dateline Havana: The Real Story of US Policy and the Future of Cuba.)
Hammond cites my book The Iran Agenda and my interview on Democracy Now to show that the Bush Administration was training and funding ethnic minorities in an effort to overthrow the Iranian government in 2007.
All the arguments are by analogy and implication. Neither the above two authors, nor anyone else of whom I am aware, offers one shred of evidence that the Obama Administration has engineered, or even significantly influenced, the current demonstrations.
Let's look at what actually happened on the ground. Tens of millions of Iranians went to bed on Friday, June 12, convinced that either Mousavi had won the election outright or that there would be runoff between him and Ahmadinejad. They woke up Saturday morning and were stunned. "It was a coup d'etat," several friends told me. The anger cut across class lines and went well beyond Mousavi's core base of students, intellectuals and the well-to-do.
Within two days hundreds of thousands of people were demonstrating peacefully in the streets of Tehran and other major cities. Could the CIA have anticipated the vote count, and on two days notice, mobilized its nefarious networks? Does the CIA even have the kind of extensive networks that would be necessary to control or even influence such a movement? That simultaneously gives the CIA too much credit and underestimates the independence of the mass movement.
As for the charge that the CIA is providing advanced technology like Twitter, pleaaaaaase. In my commentary carried on Reuters, I point out that the vast majority of Iranians have no access to Twitter and that the demonstrations were mostly organized by cell phone and word of mouth.
Many Iranians do watch foreign TV channels via satellite. A sat dish costs only about $100 with no monthly fees, so they are affordable even to the working class. Iranians watched BBC, VOA and other foreign channels in Farsi, leading to government assertions of foreign instigation of the demonstrations. By that logic, Ayatollah Khomeini received support from Britain in the 1979 revolution because of BBC radio's critical coverage of the despotic Shah.
Frankly, based on my observations, no one was leading the demonstrations. During the course of the week after the elections, the mass movement evolved from one protesting vote fraud into one calling for much broader freedoms. You could see it in the changing composition of the marches. There were not only upper middle class kids in tight jeans and designer sun glasses. There were growing numbers of workers and women in very conservative chadors.
Iranian youth particularly resented President Ahmadinejad's support for religious militia attacks on unmarried young men and women walking together and against women not covering enough hair with their hijab. Workers resented the 24 percent annual inflation that robbed them of real wage increases. Independent trade unionists were fighting for decent wages and for the right to organize.
Some demonstrators wanted a more moderate Islamic government. Others advocated a separation of mosque and state, and a return to parliamentary democracy they had before the 1953 coup. But virtually everyone believes that Iran has the right to develop nuclear power, including enriching uranium. Iranians support the Palestinians in their fight against Israeli occupation, and they want to see the U.S. get out of Iraq.
So if they CIA was manipulating the demonstrators, it was doing a piss poor job.
Of course, the CIA would like to have influence in Iran. But that's a far cry from saying it does have influence. By proclaiming the omnipotence of U.S. power, the leftist critics ironically join hands with Ahmadinejad and the reactionary clerics who blame all unrest on the British and U.S.
3. Assertion: Ahmadinejad is a nationalist-populist who opposes U.S. imperialism. Efforts to overthrow him only help the U.S.
James Petras wrote: "Ahmadinejad's strong position on defense matters contrasted with the pro-Western and weak defense posture of many of the campaign propagandists of the opposition...."
"Ahmadinejad's electoral success, seen in historical comparative perspective should not be a surprise. In similar electoral contests between nationalist-populists against pro-Western liberals, the populists have won. Past examples include Peron in Argentina and, most recently, Chavez of Venezuela, [and] Evo Morales in Bolivia."
Venezuela's Foreign Ministry wrote on its website:
"The Bolivarian Government of Venezuela expresses its firm opposition to the vicious and unfounded campaign to discredit the institutions of the Islamic Republic of Iran, unleashed from outside, designed to roil the political climate of our brother country. From Venezuela, we denounce these acts of interference in the internal affairs of the Islamic Republic of Iran, while demanding an immediate halt to the maneuvers to threaten and destabilize the Islamic Revolution."
From 1953-1979, the Shah of Iran brutally repressed his own people and aligned himself with the U.S. and Israel. After the 1979 Islamic Revolution, Iran brutally repressed its own people and broke its alliance with the U.S. and Israel. That apparently causes confusion for some on the left.
I have written numerous articles and books criticizing U.S. policy on Iran, including Bush administration efforts to overthrow the Islamic government. The U.S. raises a series of phony issues, or exaggerates problems, in an effort to impose its domination on Iran. (Examples include Iran's nuclear power program, support for Hamas and Hezbollah, and support for Shiite groups in Iraq.)
During his past four years in office, Ahmadinejad has ramped up Iran's anti-imperialist rhetoric and posed himself as a leader of the Islamic world. That accounts for his fiery rhetoric against Israel and his denial of the Holocaust. (Officially, Ahmadinejad "questions" the Holocaust and says "more study is necessary." That reminds me of the creationists who say there needs to be more study because evolution is only a theory.) As pointed out by the opposition candidates, Ahmadinejad's rhetoric about Israel and Jews has only alienated people around the world and made it more difficult for the Palestinians.
But in the real world, Ahmadinejad has done nothing to support the Palestinians other than sending some funds to Hamas. Despite rhetoric from the U.S. and Israel, Iran has little impact on a struggle that must be resolved by Palestinians and Israelis themselves.
So comparing Ahmadinejad with Chavez or Evo Morales is absurd. I have reported from both Venezuela and Bolivia numerous times. Those countries have genuine mass movements that elected and kept those leaders in power. They have implemented significant reforms that benefitted workers and farmers. Ahmadinejad has introduced 24% annual inflation and high unemployment.
As for the position of Venezuela and President Hugo Chavez, they are simply wrong. On a diplomatic level, Venezuela and Iran share some things in common. Both are under attack from the U.S., including past efforts at "regime change." Venezuela and other governments around the world will have to deal with Ahmadinejad as the de facto president, so questioning the election could cause diplomatic problems.
But that's no excuse. Chavez has got it exactly backward. The popular movement in the streets will make Iran stronger as it rejects outside interference from the U.S. or anyone else.
This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake. A repressive government has killed at least 17 Iranians and injured hundreds. The mass movement may not be strong enough to topple the system today but is sowing the seeds for future struggles.
The leftist critics must answer the question: Whose side are you on?
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177 Comments so far
Show AllDear Reese,
I can't doubt your integrity that you have some share in the $400 million sanctioned by the US Congress for Iran Project!
But I can't help thinking that how you volunteered your intellect to help them free of cost!
Could I suggest you to please read the following articles so that you first elighten yourself and then try to enlighten others:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fiskrsquos-world-in-tehran-fantasy-and-r...
http://www.counterpunch.org/alamin06302009.html
http://www.voltairenet.org/article160764.html
Thanks you for this Reese. For the first time the neo-cons and the leftist liberals have agreed to something:
TO RENOUNCE THE TRUTH IN THE STREETS OF IRAN AND FIGHT FOR SAVAGE SILENCING OF IRANIAN PROTESTERS!!!!!!!!!!
Read the rest of it here:
http://www.sidewalklyrics.com/?p=846
A rather thoughtless article making little contribution to the issue.
Its tone smacks of Bush's "You're either with us or against us."
The author flat-footedly asserts silliness like secret service activity does not explain the crowds on the streets.
No one said it did: that's a straw-man argument.
Every country without a liberal government - and even some with - has pools of people ready to act if they are encouraged.
Supplying that stimulus and encouragement is what secret services do, and we know Bush committed 400 million dollars to stirring up trouble in Iran.
Robert Fisk reported photocopies of an obviously forged letter to the Supreme Leader which people on the street were waving about. It was as phony as Bush's "yellow cake" document before the Iraq invasion.
If you want a good analysis of the situation, you'll find it here:
http://chuckmanwords.wordpress.com/
I ran PoliticalVideos at Youtube for 3 years, which was great for so many people and i had many discussions daily... Until I encountered a U.S. Preacher called Johhny Lee Clary. On his Youtube channel he made a video,speaking for 10 minutes and calling for the assassination of Iran's President, The Ayatollah, the Mullahs and top clerics in Iran. I re-uploaded his video, calling it' Radical U.S. Preacher Calls for Assassination of Ahmadinejad' .
Johnny Lee Clary complained to Youtube and my channel was suspended...I now run the channel at Dailymotion.com/Politicalvideos
In accordance to my studies of Court Administration,Court Principles and Practices and The Legal System, the incitement of murder/assassination of top world leaders is highly illegal, an offense which would usually carry imprisonment, and it is obvious that many in the U.S. and around the World think it is okay to create negativity,conflict and mayhem.
Why incite violence, racism and murder against World leaders? That's what the Iranian Government are going on about...I flagged the video and brought it to the attention of media in Iran, and I do not blame Iranian leaders for accusing Western countries for inciting riots in Iran's elections. It is idiots like Clary who call for murder in another country that leads to breakdown in relations, and they only bring about paranoia, bad feelings and violence.
In most of my discussions online I get positive feedback 99% of the time, but the 1 percent of violent comments come from Americans, not Iranians or from other nations.
Johnny Lee Clary has since removed his video because i informed him of his crime, yet my channel is still suspended.Youtube allowed his video to remain online for about a year-t hat says a lot about the racist, pro-violent attitudes within Youtube , and which stretch far and wide.
Why should i be suspended and a thug calling for murder of World Leaders be allowed to keep his?
Wake up and smell the burning coffee people, Iran is going through their own political unrest within their own political system, and there are many who want to see Iran topppled, out of misunderstanding and racism, hate and violence. Leave Iran alone, let them sort their own problems.
P.S. George Bush apparantly won power by the removal of votes in the U.S in 2001 and again in 2004... Britain has a Prime minister who NOBODY got a chance to vote for- Prime Minister Gordon Brown was voted into power by his own politicians, the public were not given a chance to vote whatsoever. And look what a mess they've got us all into... Back in 1997 Prime Minister Brown was head of the U.K. Treasury and he invented the tripartite financial system which was set up to monitor and report activities of our banks (to make sure they don't lend or borrow billions and also to prevent money filtering through to tax havens). A similar financial regulatory system was introduced in the U.S.A, but both have obviously failed, $30trillion was wiped off the value of the $60 trillion dollar industries worldwide because of the LACK OF CREDIT CONTROL...
So who's worse, an Iranian President who the West just doesn't like for no apparant reason or a fool who invades and destroys Iraq for oil, construction and security company contracts or a fool who created a financial regulatory system that actually ALLOWED MASS CORRUPTION to occur and assisted in the 50 percent loss of industry value WORLDWIDE??? Let's all vote President Ahmadinejad as the new President of the World, because everyone else who's had a go has failed to impress even the most stupid...
Russell S Wyllie of Dailymotion.com/Politicalvideos
An interesting blog post on all these questions, written in response to the polemic now raging at truthout.org over Steve Weissman's columns, can be found at: http://www.zmag.org/blog/view/3363. And follow the links as well.
Among other things, this piece, and the links it presents, document much of what I, Skip Townes, and others have been saying, which is that American groups are neck-deep in the Iranian "uprising."
clovis,brother,
Have you ever done a scientific research? If you did you would know that you can find many articles supporing your view in controversial matters regardless. I am talking about scientific matters. Now you come like a child runnig and screaming that you have found a box of candies as proof of what you have been saying.
Sure America wants to manipulate but were they successful fifty years ago in their own backyard to expect a better results halfway around the world if indeed they did anything at all?
Think about it. There are always two sides to the coin.
June 17, 2009
Washington Taps Into a Potent New Force in Diplomacy
By MARK LANDLER and BRIAN STELTER
The New York Times
"The Obama administration says it has tried to avoid words or deeds that could be portrayed as American meddling in Iran’s presidential election and its tumultuous aftermath....Yet on Monday afternoon, a 27-year-old State Department official, Jared Cohen, e-mailed the social-networking site Twitter with an unusual request: delay scheduled maintenance of its global network, which would have cut off service while Iranians were using Twitter to swap information and inform the outside world about the mushrooming protests around Tehran....There were also suspicions that some pro-government forces might be using new-media outlets to send out misinformation. One popular opposition site, Persiankiwi, warned its followers on Tuesday to ignore instructions from people with no record of reliable posts....In addition to Twitter, YouTube has been a critical tool to spread videos from Iran when traditional media outlets have had difficulty filming the protests or the ensuing crackdown. One YouTube account, bearing the user name “wwwiranbefreecom,” showed disturbing images of police officers beating people in the streets. On Monday, Lara Setrakian, an ABC News journalist, put out a call for video on Twitter, writing, “Please send footage we can’t reach!”"
Read the entire article @:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/17/world/middleeast/17media.html?_r=2&pagewanted=print
Hillary Clinton defends Twitter efforts for Iran
By Paul Richter
The Los Angeles Times
3:31 PM PDT, June 17, 2009
"The U.S. urged the networking service to delay maintenance so the system would keep running, leading to complaints from Iran's government. Twitter has helped protesters communicate amid a clampdown."
"Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton on Wednesday defended U.S. efforts to ensure that the Twitter social networking service has remained available for use by Iranian protesters, even as Tehran complained about U.S. interference in its affairs....Clinton said that Twitter has been essential in allowing Iranian protesters, especially the young, to remain in touch in the aftermath of last week's disputed presidential election....State Department officials earlier this week urged Twitter to delay scheduled maintenance work to avoid interrupting its service in Iran...."
Read full article by Paul Richter @: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fgw-twitter18-2009jun18,0,5845567.story
Thanks for picking up the slack, Jackson. Peace.
Esam Al-Amin's article at Counterpunch.org entitled: "Iran and Washington's Hidden Hand: Has the CIA Been Caught in Iran's Cookie Jar, Again" from June 30, 2009 is one worth reading @: http://www.counterpunch.org/alamin06302009.html
Esam Al-Amin writes that: "Only weeks after the September 11, 2001, attacks, Charles Krauthammer, the Washington Post columnist and mouthpiece of the neoconservatives, revealed the target list of the Bush administration as it set out on its post-9/11 war footing. The list included six nations: Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, and the Palestinian Authority. While the priority allotted to Afghanistan and subsequently Iraq was not in dispute, the remaining order was in flux....Israel was given a free hand in dealing with the Palestinian Authority (PA). President George W. Bush completely shunned and isolated PA President Yasser Arafat, until he died under siege in November 2004. Former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was allowed to use brutal military tactics to crush the Al-Aqsa intifada, reoccupying much of the West Bank, and setting up hundreds of military checkpoints devastating Palestinian life and what remained of the PA....Dozens of books have been written explaining in elaborate detail the schemes, plots and deceptions by the neocons for regime change in Iraq....As Libyan Leader Muammar Qadhafi watched the toppling of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein in the spring of 2003, he initiated contact with London and then Washington, trying to identify the conditions needed, in an attempt to avoid Saddam’s fate. By January 2004, Libya agreed to all their conditions....Syria faced economic pressure and diplomatic isolation, coupled with veiled and direct threats. By April 2005, Syria withdrew its troops from Lebanon after a 29-year presence....But the toughest nut to crack among all these targets has always been Iran. Ironically, Iran’s strategic situation vastly improved following the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, and the overthrow of those regimes. By 2004, Iran’s Shiite allies in Iraq were in control of the government...Iran exercised tremendous influence with Muqtada Sadr’s militia....Between 2005-2009, the U.S. Congress appropriated more than $400 million for State Department programs designed to “promote democracy,” among other means of employing soft power in Iran. This was implemented, in part, by funding the activities of Iranian dissident groups. By 2008, Congress included money in the budget that would specifically “go to software programmers to develop programs that thwart internet firewalls erected by the government of Iran, ” and for a program to “provide anti-censorship tools and services for the advancement of information freedom in closed societies.”...On May 24, 2007, Brian Ross, ABC News’s Chief Investigative Correspondent broke a story about the elements of soft power utilized by the CIA and authorized by Bush. “Current and former intelligence officials told ABC News that the CIA has received secret presidential approval to mount what is known as a black or covert operations to destabilize the Iranian regime, and it is underway,” he reported....The role of the Western media in the few weeks before and in the aftermath of the elections is illuminating. These same outlets traditionally act as enablers to Washington’s agenda, a role notoriously on display in the lead-up to the Iraq war....Opposition groups have relied on Internet communication technology such as text messaging, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and political blogs during their protests. In fact, Secretary Clinton took the unusual step in asking Twitter to change its maintenance schedule to accommodate Iran’s time zone and allow opposition groups the ability to utilize it. What is striking is that most of the postings were in English, not Persian, begging the question: who was the target audience of these tweets? Similarly, why were the protesters holding signs saying, “Where is my vote?” in English, rather than the language spoken by the voters of Iran?....a study by the website, www.chartingstocks.net, concluded that during three days after the election, the overwhelming majority of Tweets (over 30,000), were manipulated through a handful of accounts; all created within one day of the elections on June 13. It is interesting to note that only 0.6 percent of Twitter accounts are used by Iranians (as compared to 44 percent by Americans)....In a recent interview with the BBC on June 19, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the foreign policy icon and ultimate insider, exposed Washington’s deep involvement in the Iranian affair....Dr. Kissinger said, “If it turns out that it is not possible for a government to emerge in Iran that can deal with itself as a nation rather than as a cause, then we have a different situation.”"
Okay---Are You dimwits still saying the U.S. has had no involvement in Iran's destablization and continuing to drink the Kool-Aid of the Bush-Cheney-Rice-Obama-Biden-Clinton-Gates administration? Stop lying to yourselves already! The U.S. is Neck Deep into this present situation inside Iran!
Action Jackson!
Here are some additional links, perhaps only footnotes to include, but certainly more data on Twitter and social-networking tools used by political activist and influence in Moldova’s recent election of 2009. Interestingly, not much willingness for journalist "blogger types" to cross-examine the data.
Links:
“Moldova’s Twitter Revolution”
h**p://neteffect.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2009/04/07/moldovas_twitter_revolution
The Role of Digital Networked technologies in the Ukrainian Orange Revolution
h**p://cyber.law.harvard.edu/publications/2007/The_Role_of_Digital_Networked_Technologies_in_the_Ukranian_Orange_Revolution
And then there is Jeremy Hammond’s article listing NED activities. Encyclopedic references, very tasty article worth bookmarking --if only worth the #69 references.
… “Sullivan linked to a Farsi language website as his source, Peykeiran.com,[62] but Sullivan admittedly cannot read Farsi, so he was clearly merely relaying information he saw elsewhere, perhaps on Twitter, without attribution. Sullivan’s relayed claim, whatever its true origin, was promptly repeated in blogs across the net following his posting it at The Daily Dish.
But when shown the post and the linked-to page in Farsi, Kourosh Ziabari, an Iranian journalist and correspondent for Foreign Policy Journal, replied, “Actually, Andrew Sullivan has made a mistake, as far as I see. The one who asserted that the election results were invalid was Ali-Akbar Mohtashami, the Administrator for the Committee of Votes Preservation at the national campaign of Mir-Hossein Mousavi.”[63] This is hardly the same “huge news” Sullivan claimed it to be.
The New York Times also observed that “Not only is it hard to be sure that what appears on Twitter is accurate, but some Twitterers may even be trying to trick you.” An example cited is that of fabricated posts purporting to be from ABC News reporter Jim Sciutto.[64]
In that case, Sciutto said, the Iranian government attempted “to turn technology against the protesters. Officials have started a number of fake opposition pages on Twitter, which are tweeting propaganda and misleading information.”[65]
Sciutto offered no evidence that it was actually the Iranian government that was responsible for Twittering in his name, but then, of course, it is easy to accept that the Iranian government is using Twitter to spread misinformation simply as a matter of faith.”…"
….One more point, when Commondreams started pushing pro-green revolution coverage, CD’s most 'revealing' links came from Sullivan, et al part of blog-sphere ….
Has the U.S. Played a Role in Fomenting Unrest During Iran’s Election?
June 23, 2009 by Jeremy R. Hammond
h**p://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/06/23/has-the-u-s-played-a-role-in-fomenting-unrest-during-irans-election/
update: for anyone who ventures this far into the threads at a latter date, Hammond --who I mention above and who is cited by Erlich in the above article-- responds to Erlich's presumptions about Hammond's FP article.... it's a good rebuttal and well worth reading to get more depth for Erlich's willingness to misquote, misrepresent, and just flat out make shit up to argue his "leftist confusion case".
http://hammond.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2009/06/28/reese-elrich-responds-to-fpj-on-iran-election-artic...
actionJackson62,
I read that article a few days ago and I wrote to him that the Gurdian Council had admitted they had found 3 million irregular votes in the recounting of certain number of boxes(something like 50 boxes out of 170). He wrote back to me that that was media manipulation. For the next few days I checked my Persian resources and confirmed that was the official findings. I never wrote back to him because I had already told him in the previous email that the oil money was apprently working. Please read my response to clovis above and do not believe whatever you read.
Yes, there are always "two sides of the coin" but there can always be two heads on it when the CIA-NED are involved. In this case one side of the coin is the CIA and the other is the NED.
Happy Trails!
Yes, there are always "two sides of the coin" but there can always be two heads on it when the CIA-NED are involved. In this case one side of the coin is the CIA and the other is the NED.
Yes, there are many sides to the story. Please consult:
1. H.R.282
2. H.R.6198
3. S.3971
4. PUBLIC LAW 109–293—SEPT. 30, 2006 "Iran Freedom Support Act"
Cheers!
Yes, there are always "two sides of the coin" but there can always be two heads on it when the CIA-NED are involved. In this case one side of the coin is the CIA and the other is the NED.
Yes, there are many sides to the story. Please consult:
1. H.R.282
2. H.R.6198
3. S.3971
4. PUBLIC LAW 109–293—SEPT. 30, 2006 "Iran Freedom Support Act"
EXCERPTS From: PUBLIC LAW 109–293—SEPT. 30, 2006 "Iran Freedom Support Act"
TITLE III—PROMOTION OF DEMOCRACY FOR IRAN
(a) AUTHORIZATION.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the President is authorized to provide financial and political assistance (including the award of grants) to foreign and domestic individuals, organizations, and entities working for
the purpose of supporting and promoting democracy for Iran. Such assistance may include the award of grants to eligible independent pro-democracy radio and television broadcasting organizations that broadcast into Iran.
(2) LIMITATION ON ASSISTANCE.—In accordance with the rule of construction described in subsection (b) of section 301, none of the funds authorized under this section shall be used to support the use of force against Iran.
(c) FUNDING.—The President may provide assistance under this section using—
(1) funds available to the Middle East Partnership Initiative (MEPI), the Broader Middle East and North Africa Initiative, and the Human Rights and Democracy Fund; and (2) amounts made available pursuant to the authorization of appropriations under subsection (g).
(e) SENSE OF CONGRESS REGARDING DIPLOMATIC ASSISTANCE.— It is the sense of Congress that— (1) support for a transition to democracy in Iran should be expressed by United States representatives and officials in all appropriate international fora; (2) officials and representatives of the United States should— (A) strongly and unequivocally support indigenous efforts in Iran calling for free, transparent, and democratic elections; and (B) draw international attention to violations by the Government of Iran of human rights, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, and freedom of the press. (f) DURATION.—The authority to provide assistance under this section shall expire on December 31, 2011. (g) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.—There is authorized to be appropriated to the Secretary of of State such sums as may be necessary to carry out this section.
Good Day.....Please Stop Drinking that Kool-Aid!!!!
ActionJackson62,
Who said USA is not trying to change the regime and take over Iran or many other countries? Ofcourse they have and they will.
That does not mean we should consider any movement in the world as US conspiracy. Who knows what will happen today, tomorrow or the next day. May be Israel will attack Iran, may be Iranian regime will fall tomorrow.
That does not mean to have a conspiracy theory behind every happening unless you love to have one.
We are talking about what appears to be facts.
There is a struggle going on in Iran between two factions of the regime; the old and the new groups. Both are committed to preserving the Islamic regime. The Iranians who do not like some aspects of the regime have come out in support of the old group and aginst Ahmadinejad. They have lost unfairly we believe to the new Military-Religious-Mafia group. That is all. Now you want to say that USA has done that? Fine. We will wait and see. But being familiar with situation in Iran, I don't think so.
There is a saing in Persian; If the bald could treat baldness he/she should have treated his/her own head. The USA should have been able to prevent 911 attack and forget about manipulation all aroud the world at the expense of our healthcare system and so on. Thanks for your insight.
When you resort to hyperbole, you may have lost the argument.
Who said, "That does not mean we should consider any movement in the world as US conspiracy."? Somebody said that any movement in the world is a US conspiracy.
You fake leftists have lost the arguments. When it comes to speculating if the CIA or Mossad had any involvement - who should we believe? You or our eyes?
There are two broad issues internal to Iran at stake in this debate and only after they are dealt with can we deal with questions about what the rest of the world ought to do. The first question is whether or not the Iranian election was legitimate, which is not the same as asking if it was democratic. Legitimate means that the rules of the game are generally known, accepted and followed by those playing the game. By this definition, I've yet to read any convincing article that proves the Iranian election was hardly more than flawed and certainly not illegitimate. That doesn't resolve the question, but the burden of proof has to be on the accusation, no? The scant available information on popular sentiment in Iran suggests that the outcome of the election probably wasn't altered by whatever "irregularities" actually occurred. That's cold comfort for people who care about a well-functioning democracy, but we're not talking about an ideal here -- just ask a minor party candidate in any two-party system.
The second issue involves arguments made by those who urge us outsiders to join with the protesters. If it arises that that the case for a stolen election has never been made persuasively, the argument turns to the issues of the rights of the protesters. Should outsiders side with the protesters against a repressive militia or police action? That question hardly merits asking, right? Obviously everyone should and I believe 99.99&% of the folks here do.
But that's not the common frame for the question. The question is usually asked in the context of a demand that in order to support the protesters' RIGHTS I also must imply agreement with the protesters on the particular issue: the legitimacy of the ELECTION itself.
Of course, that's nonsense. All of the questions about who do you side with etc. are, by design, confusing the difference between democracy and liberal ideals about rights. A monarchy can be liberal. A democracy can be repressive. That's PS-101.
Why can't I support the right of the protesters to claim that the election was stolen even if I don't accept that claim as being demonstrated or persuasive?
1,if you could read persian, it is all well documented in Mousavi's written official complaint. This complaint was never seriously considered or reviewed by the officials! like the supreme court and Florida Election. You won by majority popular vote and lose it to supreme court.
2,all you can help is to sympathize with Iranians otherwise the opposion will be labelled as agents of great satan as it has been.
The demonstrations in Iran represent real rage and desire for change, spontaneously expressed.
Also, for months before the election the mossad & cia plotted out a campaign to allege a stolen election.
Knowing real unrest would erupt. Legitimate.
Also, subtly precipitated and manipulated to some degree.
Honduras, Iran,
We get around.
Reese Erlich:
Sounds to me like a lot of Zionist disinformation! Just keep repeating it and eventually people will believe you.
There were many protesting there who were not Iranian as well as the terrorist group MKO that were setting fires, shooting and damaging property.
But you keep it up! People enjoy hearing your rhetoric, truth or not, it doesn't really matter does it! It's so entertaining and that's what people want.
Qanni,
There have been unconfirmed claims that some of the Gaurds could not speak Persian and were probably speaking Arabic, meaning that they were brought by government from Lebanon or Palestine. These were never confirmed.
Setting fires and breaking windows and destroying peoples' properties are well known tactics of the regime to label a peaceful demonstration as a riot and justify to crush.
dear Reese Erlich,
You are so right! it is painful to see how " confused" the " left" is in America about Iran. I have been an Iranian woman activist working with the most popular left organization in Iran during the Shah and later in exile.
I can tell you that left, either in Iran or in US, when they are out of touch with the reality of people's struggle on ground, they talk so off that they end up showing up on the right.
it frustrate me every time i read views of those who claim to be ' leftist" and are so out of touch. i am writing to you to Thank you on behalf of Iranian people for taking the time and making it clear to those who feel responsible to find out whose side they are.
>>This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake. A repressive government has killed at least 17 Iranians and injured hundreds."
Compare this number to the number killed by the Shah or those killed by security forces in El Salvador or in Chile or just recently in Peru. See as another example Uzbehkistan. (many HUNDREDS killed in that country but as allies of the United States there hardly the same codemnation.)
Then of course there Israel and that countries brutal repression of peoples in the region.
Or the 13 protestors shot dead by US forces in Fallujah.
The underlying debate is the hyprocisy exhibited by the nations condemning Iran.
The FACT that double standards are set and that an Iran is villified by every newspaper, every news organization and every Government while much greater excesses are ignored in other States speaks To a TRUTH.
If there IS a difference into how such events are being presented by the Western media and by Governments, then those Governments and the Media are trying to MANIPULATE public opinion.
If they are trying to manipulate public opinion, then they are a participant .
If a person is making the claim that The US, or the Western media does not play a role in these protests and if the same are concerned about the repression and killing of peoples by their Governments, then they should treat all such instances EQUALLY and not pick and choose.
>>This is no academic debate or simply fodder for bored bloggers. Real lives are at stake
Yes. The Afghanis, the Pakistanis, The iraqis, the Somalians, The Uighurs, the peoples in Dafur, The Rwandans the peoples of the Congo, the Natives of the Amazon are all PEOPLE too and they are real lives dying at the hands of REPRESSIVE regimes including the same Governments now condemning Iran.
Yes by all means let us condemn violence committed by a Government against the people. WHEREVER it happens.
GwNorth,
Nobody is claiming that USA and/or other counties are not trying to take advantage of the situation. As a matter of fact this is the situation and the Iranian regime is well aware of it. BUT it doesn't mean that the uprising is not legitimate as someone called it probably!! sincere!!
It is a true legitimate protest against a stolen election. So we, people shall not support it because at the time we can not support ten other legitimate happenings?
No. We should not be calling the election RIGGED if we have no evidence of such and are unable to present that evidence.
The author of this article sets a double standard. He suggests that because we might disagree with the notion of a Theocracy we MUST support peoples who claim the election rigged.
The election of Mousavi will do NOTHING to expand the human rights of iranians.
You claim it was a stolen election. Where is the proof of that? You assume that because people protest the results it MUST have been stolen.
You assume that because they believe it was stolen, that it must have been stolen.
GwNorth,
I probably wrote this somewhere else. The proof of the theft is all in Mousvi's well documented official complaint and protest in Persian language if you can read it. The officials did not accept it, exactly like the Florida case.
We are not talking about the human rights of Iranians, it is their own business. We are saying that according to the facts, that are ignored and distorted by the regime, this election was stolen. That is all. Now if the right and left want to use it as a playground for their fight it is another matter.
So I am to understand you read Farsi?
Yes and I read the whole docuement in Persian.
And this document was PROOF?
I would point out that Chalabi and Curveball provided PROOF Inf Saddams WMDS and that Colin Powell claimed in his pseech to the UN that what he was saying was not ASSERTIONS but fact.
Do you understand the difference between PROOF and an assertion?
US liberals have been supporting the imperial agenda for three decades most intensely, as a natural outcome of their pursuit of the liberal 'merican dream. This author, Reese Erlich, is trying to defend the liberal tradition. No doubt he wants to keep the petro-fired imperial status quo, cycling between Demok/Repuk control in Washing-town, and enjoy the spoils of empire in classic liberal style. He would like to see the Middle East joint the west in liberal nirvana, with a similar class hierarchy in both worlds, the jet-set privileged elites living large on the backs of the poor. He'll never admit that the Middle East's radical Islam is fueled mainly by western cultural and petro-imperialism. Kaka on his liberal class war vision. The people of the world stand in solidarity against the western liberal elite class war offensive.
To the author, Mr. Erlich: US meddling in Iran is not just old history. Why are you ignoring the fact that in 2007, Bush and Congress approved $400 million for covert action in Iran, funding of Iranian opposition groups and assisting them with electronic technology. Can you say Twitter?
Also some of these "protestors" haven't been at all peaceful from the very start. Maybe this was due to US Government cloak and dagger types' prodding. Regardless, violence as Adlai Stevenson used to say,"begets violence." This was no Ghandian movement for the most part no matter how much hot air CNN puts out to try to create such an image. It's a complete fraud. Those who are non violent deserve better, but many of them probably didn't have anything to do with this whole mess. Many of them probably saw this mess coming.
AD
Also, the militia beating the protesters were never peaceful from the start.
I'm writing a biography of Winston Churchill, and I'd say this writer seems a bit confused. Maybe he needs to read more of Paul Craig Roberts as well as other writers like him. At best this is like the Hungarian Uprising in 1956 which the CIA pressed alll out for the people to rebel against Moscow, and some innocent people got killed, but it wasn't the "terrible Communists" in Moscow who caused in. Furthermore, Dwight D Eisenhower had John Foster Dulles, the secretary of state at the time and the brother of Allen Dulles, the CIA director who was stirring up the pot in Hungary to go on TV to announce to people internationally that the USA wasn't going to provide any military support of any kind to that uprising. That's just what this president should do to let the neo cons in the CIA or Pentagon cloak and dagger circles that they can't just go out and get this country in a military confrontation with a government they don't happen to like and especially if such stirring up of the pot has resulted in the deaths of innocents.
AD
The Warsaw Pact invaded Hungary. Why am I not surprised to find a leftist trying to defend those actions? Let me guess, you are also going to defend the crushing of the Prague Spring.
"The large majority of American people, particularly leftists and progressives, are sympathetic to the demonstrators in Iran, oppose Iranian government repression and also oppose any U.S. military or political interference in that country."
This guy Reese Erlich shows his stripes early on in his article. If he thinks the above quote is true then, well, I'm sure the DLC is rewarding such a position with choice airline tickets and such. Of course the truth is that the large majority of USans, including a large majority of self-proclaimed leftists/progressives, strongly support US imperialism wherever it rears its ugly head. 130 million votes for elite candidates in the 2008 elections testify to that, plus the continued consumption mania and the failure to support leftist causes generally.
Erlich is propagating delusions at best. But there's money in it, he finds, no doubt, just like there's money in SUVs.
Which side are you on?
That's one way to frame the argument and since the question is forwarded to the board, I guess I'll take the jump. Listening to the Erlich, Boaz, Zunes crowd create an us or them frame, I am reminded of those "so called liberals" (as Zunes would say) who voted for and championed Obama and those who didn't vote for him. And those "so called liberals" who were for intervention in Yugoslavia and those who were against it. And those "so called liberals" who were against intervention in Afghanistan and those who were for it.
snark on that.
The question remains:
What's the best-advised US policy toward Iran, especially given the current popular ferment there, but also considering the currently dubious if not ruined moral authority of the USA?
Do most protesting Iranians want an end to their Muslim Theocracy, or do they simply want an gentler version of governing religious idiocy?
I hazard an answer with this preface:
since most of us on this website, plus our own bungling, hypocritical government and corrupted MSM, show no reliable grasp of what the protesting Iranians really want,
OUR present government's best policy at the moment is to basically butt-out and, in any political detail at least, just shut-up.
Even slithery Obama was initially inclined in this sensibly non-interventionist direction toward Iran, until he crapped-out to faux-Christian GOP PR challenges to his 'presidential manhood' (macho ironies, here, abounding!)
The USA government has to make it clear (first, to its own, domestic wanna-be theocrats), that magical religious arguments are NOT the basis of America's nor any genuine democracy's public policies domestic or international.
Only then, for example, can a US president, secondly, turn to other, full-blown theocracies like Iran (or Israel, or Saudi Arabia, etc.) and credibly say what needs to be said, namely:
While America won't otherwise interfere with the theocratic rule of you-deepest of existentially-dishonest solipsists, neither will America ever grant you, you ego-monstrous prelates, the benefit of diplomatic doubt when you assert that your alleged 'theocratic democracy' does or ever could represent the popular, freely-informed will of your nation's people.
Obviously, it wouldn't be smart in the present situation for the US to put it quite THAT directly.
But the international political position of any half-way rationally-governed nation shouldn't be too far removed from exactly this kind of secular-normative candor, whenever its officials speak to the rulers of a formally-declared theocracy.
Amen.
I wish people were this interested in "stolen elections" in 2006 when there were months of protest and *MILLIONS* of Mexicans that insisted the election was stolen, unlike the few thousand here and there, in wealthy parts of Iran. How many Iranians have access to Twitter, anyway ?
President Bush called up the day of the election in 2006 to
congratulate Calderon on his "victory". Months before he was declared the winner by the national electoral court. I didn't see CNN wring its hands about "a classic example of how a country can have competitive elections without being democratic" THEN.
I guess no American journalist was *qualified* to write a story about that election, because they hadn't just come back from witnessing mass demonstrations in Mexico City - you know, you have to *BE THERE* to know anything about what's going on...
http://theconstantamerican.blogspot.com/2006/07/mexicans-show-americans-how-to-fight.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/leftists-defiant-as-calderon-is-finally-de
clared-president-414812.html
------------
By the way, reports about that wonderful hero of Democracy, Freedom, and Motherhood, Iranian Presidential candidate Mir-Hossein Mousavi Khameneh, don't mention that he declined the invitation to run for President by the Reformist party in 1997, and their *second choice* candidate, Mohammad Khatami, won by a landslide. So there is hardly a lock on power by one Party in Iran.
"Khatami attracted global attention during his first election to the presidency when, as "a little known cleric, he captured almost 70% of the vote." Khatami had run on a
platform of liberalization and reform. During his two terms as president, Khatami advocated freedom of expression, tolerance and civil society, constructive diplomatic relations with other states including those in the European Union and Asia, and an economic policy that supported a free market and foreign investment."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Khatami
Gee, the U.S. Media must have *loved* that guy, no ?
No. They still treated Iran as part of the "Axis of Evil". Repressive Theocracy. The "people" screaming for freedom, etc...
So, the US isn't meddling in Iranian affairs?
USAID gave $20 million to unnamed Iranian organizations “to promote democracy, human rights, and the rule of law in Iran”
"One of the funnels for funding is the state-funded National Endowment for Democracy, which has been intimately involved in “colour revolutions” in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics. The NED website lists a number of Iranian organisations including the National Iranian American Council as recipients of its funds." -wsws.org
Iranian Organizations mostly located in CA,NY or Washington DC receive the money, laugh all the way to the banks, spend it right here in the great USA and help our economy. What else do we want?
Are you saying it's like a stimulus package?
Sort of. It is mostly spent in Beverly Hill by exiled Iranians of pro Shah faction claiming!! to bring the Mullahs down by silly radio and TV shows.
This isn't any different from the Cold War era when there were many people on the left(though not a majority) who were very sympathetic to the Soviet Union and the brutal, anti-democratic regimes they backed. These people thought the USSR could do no wrong. If they ever did anything "wrong", it was always in reaction to western capitalist imperialism, lead by the U.S. Or capitalist propagandists made it all up, the Soviets didn't really do anything bad.
So the Soviets and their allies were merely responding to the terrible threat of U.S imperialism, with their routine murder and imprisonment of dissidents in gulags and oppression and the anti-democratic nature of their system. The moronic far-left had no sympathy for Soviet dissidents, since they saw them as greedy, wannabe capitalists. Similarly, in the minds of these same people, the anti-Ahmadinejad protesters in Iran are thought of as spoiled, Prada-wearing, upper middle class Iranians who love to drink alcohol and smoke(and are getting paid or influenced by the CIA), and wish they could exploit the poor of Iran to become even richer - if only their defender Ahmadinejad would get out of the way!
These far-lefty excuse-makers for the Iranian mullahs generally know few if any Iranians, but the biggest experts among them don't know any Iranians at all, hence their "expertise" on this situation. Even better, some of the biggest geniuses among this clique base their expertise on NEVER HAVING BEEN TO IRAN, unlike the author of this article. The funny thing about these left-wing crazies is that most are not Muslim, many are atheists or not religious at all, but they are willing to lock arms with the Muslim extremists of Iran in their struggle against U.S imperialism. I guess if North Korea can do this as a state, why can't they do this as individuals?
Now watch these people claim I watch Fox News or I was a die-hard Bush supporter LOL.
The funny thing is that if you read sites like fifth international, marxist.com, they have come out in support of the protesters.
It is the "realpolitik" types, the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" anti-imperialist types who are coming out in defense of Ahmadinejad. It is the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" anti-imperialist types who have forgotten, or never knew, what Rosa Luxemburg said about freedom:
"Freedom only for the supporters of the government, only for the members of a party – however numerous they may be – is no freedom at all. Freedom is always the freedom of the dissenter."
Excellent and sorely-needed perspective. Thank you.
It's insulting to the Iranian people to keep telling them they are puppets of the United States.
Just as it's naive to think that US agencies aren't behind any uprisings around the world, it's equally naive to think they are behind all of them.
>>It's insulting to the Iranian people to keep telling them they are puppets of the United States.
Why is it insulting? Do you actually READ and understand history and how groups of people have been manipulated?
There are large numbers of students in China who do not believe Tianammen square happened. They feel it was a creation of Western propoganda. In Europe throughout history groups of people have been manipulated LIKE puppets to visit violence upon others with appeals to patriotism or by villification of religous groups.
Look at Iran in 1953...or Chile under Allende. Is it insulting to suggest that the Chileans and Iranins that took to the streets in protest were being MANIPULATED by agencies of that same US Government?
World history is FILLED with a neverending chain of persons in power manipulating others and working them like puppets to achieve a desired end. Should we pretend such does not happen because YOu think it insulting to suggest such?
GwNorth,
In 1953 the Iranian military with the help of CIA staged a coup and brought the popular democratic prime minister down. This is all confirmed, documented and confessed by two American officials. Why are you mixing up the issues?
I am not mixing up the issues. The poster claims that to suggest that the people of Iran are being manipulated is an INSULT to Iranians.
I point out how they were manipulated in the past. If it was 1953 and suggested that the people of Iran were being manipulated would a Ms Boaz claim that the suggestion insulting to Iranians?
Her suggestion that making the claims TODAY is insulting is not logical.
The issues are the same.
GwNorth,
As I said, in 1953 the military and CIA brought the government down with participation of paid off mobs headed by Shaban bi mokh(brainless Shaban) and certain well known females and some sympathizers. Many Iranians were afterwards persecuted, punished and imprisoned until they rose again in 1979 against the Shah by millions.
This is a different story now. These people are not against the regime; they want a different president under the same regime. As you said, Mousavi will not be much different from Ahamadinejad in foreign affairs.
Yes the USA may want to manipulate this but almost all Iranians, left or right, have a very bad memory of American interventions and will not fall for that.
Europe after WW1 said "never again" then 30 years later were marching off to war again.
Americans are fooled time after time in participating in wars based on hype and falsehoods.
It is not a matter of "falling for that". All that is needed is one small group to be funded and supported by the USA to foment unrest. This small group gives the appearance of being "Grass roots" and then millions of others will follow along.
This is not new. This type of stuff has been going on since the Roman times. Its a tactic as old as the hills. The brits did it over and over again In India in order to hang on to their empire.
The people were fooled over and over again.
The problem with the author of this article is he presumes that because the regime in Iran oppressive those that do not believe the election "rigged" or that public opinion being manipulated somehow support oppresive regimes and theocracies.
This is garbage. One does not follow from the other.
Just because people might believe Obama's election was legit , it does not mean they therefore support torture or the bank bail outs.
GwNorth,
Your generalization is amazing. "All that is needed is one small group to be funded and supported by USA to forment unrest".
I am at a loss as to why USA has not been able to do that in China, Russia or Cuba? And if such a wisdom works why China and Russia have not been able to do that to USA?
My dear friend, the issue is much more complex than that and with many many factors involved.
There is a saying in Persian that the one bitten by snake will be afraid of even black or white ropes. The Iranians , like Iraqis and Afghanis have been bitten by the snake of Free Land and Free People before.
Remembe Vietnam? The fool Kennedy, Nixon and Johnson shoud have given some money to a small group of vietnamese and win the war. May be you can talk Obama into giving some money to a group of Pakistanis to win their heart and their land?
"Exporting" "democracy" with a small group of funded people may not always work. That is why the United States has more than seven hundred military bases around the world to defend "democracies" in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Central Asia, Europe, Africa and you name it.
>>My dear friend, the issue is much more complex than that and with many many factors involved
I am NOT you dear friend.
And the USA HAS tried to fund groups in China and Cuba and Russia. They failed as it appears they have failed in Iran.
Britain eventually failed in India.
On the other hand the US has had successes using such tactics.
In places like Iran in 1953, Chile under Allende, The Honduras multiple times. Nicaraugua (Unless it yoru contention the Contras were a truely home grown populist uprising) the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan.
Britain help FOUND the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt as a counter to Nationalists way back in the late 1800s because they felt by setting Egyptians against one another, they could retain control of that country.
Israel funded Hamas as a counter to Palestinian Nationalists.
The FBI infiltrated peace groups and sparked violent protests in order to discredit them.
The British had agents inside the IRA who were planting bombs and killing Civilians while posing as terrorists.
Now you tell me....
Would the British infiltrate the IRA and say "hey I am actually an agent of the british Government..it would be a GOOD idea if we planted bombs and killed some protestants so they could blanme the IRA"
Or would they pretend to be committed members of the IRA?
To be fair, we also have military bases inside such "democracies" as Germany, Japan, and South Korea to defend them as well. Of course they weren't democratic countries when we first occupied them, but they certainly are now.
So hopefully we will turn Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kazakhstan, United Arab Amirate, Bahrin, Kwait, Azerbaijan, into full democracies by our military presece in the the near future. Correct?
abra kadaba.
Nope, just pointing it out. We occupied Germany and Japan out of necessity during WW2. I don't know enough about the Korean War or containment theory to claim that it was necessary to intervene there, but I generally support efforts to resist military conquest, and North Korea's government is surely no shining beacon of human civilization.
zmann,
According to wikipedia Japan and Germany both started their democracies in 1920s and were on their ways to become democratic themselves. I give credit to USA for not trying to set up puppet governments there.
North Korea started its democracy in 1948 after official separation of north and south. Democracy has been up and down there so far.
Uh, I don't think Germany and Japan were remotely democratic by the late 30s. And I meant South Korea, which was mostly undemocratic until the 80s I believe. I wouldn't consider anything in North Korea to be democratic.
This article did not address the efforts of US-based groups like the National Endowment for Democracy (and it's wicked little stepchild, Foundation for Democracy, led by neo-con Kenneth Timmerman) in destabilizing foreign governments with whom we disagree. George Soros' Open Society Institute also practices meddling in foreign elections to benefit the continuance of American imperialism. Look into these groups - I haven't seen any of these so-called progressives sites delve into these elephants in the room.
He also ignores strange details like the fact that some of the rioters (and that's what they were, rioters) were carry signs written in English ("Where is my vote!"). Doesn't anyone find this particularly odd? When we were having mass protests against US aggression in Iraq, were there demonstrators carrying sign written in Arabic? No. These Iranian "demonstrations" were part of a massive propaganda campaign on the American public, and it's strange to see so many erstwhile progressives fall into it so easily.
There is a schism that has developed between leftists, and I think the fault-lines really became apparent when some of us started questioning the validity of the US governments fantastical account of 9/11. Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many "progressives" have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that our leaders (and nation) are inherently good and wouldn't seek to manipulate the governed in such a fashion. I'm not one of those progressives...
"He also ignores strange details like the fact that some of the rioters (and that's what they were, rioters) were carry signs written in English ("Where is my vote!"). Doesn't anyone find this particularly odd? When we were having mass protests against US aggression in Iraq, were there demonstrators carrying sign written in Arabic?" No. These Iranian "demonstrations" were part of a massive propaganda campaign on the American public, and it's strange to see so many erstwhile progressives fall into it so easily.
Why are those details? Yes it is a propaganda war. For the WORLD. Civilian protesters against an autocratic government have ALWAYS fought a propaganda war. To win against an autocratic government, civilian protesters must fight and win a propaganda war. That you believe it is targeted just at Americans shows the usual American-centric bias. People in Europe can read English. They cannot read Persian. People in OTHER Islamic countries are also more likely to be able to read English than Persian.
"There is a schism that has developed between leftists, and I think the fault-lines really became apparent when some of us started questioning the validity of the US governments fantastical account of 9/11. Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many "progressives" have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that our leaders (and nation) are inherently good and wouldn't seek to manipulate the governed in such a fashion. I'm not one of those progressives..."
Wishful thinking is a heady narcotic, and many anti-imperialist leftists have fallen under the spell of believing the hogwash that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".
Your reply makes no sense. If you are protesting your government, then your message should be for them, not for those around the world who may be watching it on television. Stop and think about the example of the demonstrations against the Iraq invasion that I gave in my original post. Do you remember seeing anyone carrying signs in any other languages than English?
I have no affinity for Ahmadinejad, but I deplore US interference in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is obviously another example of it occurring. Your last statement is just as inane as the first, rfloh.
You are missing the point. It's not about our leaders and nation being inherently good, it's that these theories presuppose 1) that unless the US has engineered it, it can't happen, and 2) US agencies are capable of way more than they actually are (how, for example, do you square the notion of massive US-led uprisings in Iran with the impotence against Castro for five decades?)
The Iranian people have a history of nonviolent action, and by buying into the cynical propaganda from the neo-Marxist bloggers, you are strengthening the hand of a very brutal regime who WANTS you to believe the US was behind this, because it takes power away from the people.
As for why the protesters carried signs in English, it's very simple: they knew international media would be broadcasting the photos, and English is (whether we like it or not) the default language in media. People everywhere around the world understood what the sign "Where is my vote?" meant, which would not have been the case with Farsi. Although the bulk of signs were in Farsi, anyway, so your point is kind of silly.
And it's Farsi they speak in Iran, not Arabic.
Cynthia,
Well said. Actually they speak Persian in Iran, which is the English translation of Farsi.(Farce is not a good word in English)
No, you are the one missing the point Cynthia (and by a wide margin at that). There are many world events that happen without US interference (I'm sure Western NGO's and the CIA didn't help the Islamic Revolution in 1979, but it happened), so there was no presupposition on my part. You shouldn't be so naive that you believe that there are those in the US who will happily interfere with internal foreign politics because it has happened time and time again.
It seems you are buying into the belief that groups like the NED and the CIA aren't capable of fomenting revolution in other countries, but how can you doubt their capability when you've seen it happen so many times? Think of all the governments the CIA has successfully overthrown and how many countries they've actually thwarted the democratic will of the populace (I could give you a list, but I'll assume you're at least partially aware of them).
I have no doubt that there are many people in Iran who disagree with the theocratic nature of their government, just not enough to win an election. The Iranian population is young, and many weren't around to see the havoc perpetrated by the US-supported dictator and his secret police forces; there is genuine anger there. My problem is that this "green revolution" bears many of the hallmarks of other US-based "revolutions", and we know that many of the same US organizations involved in these prior "revolutions" most likely had a hand in the failed Iranian one.
The US has been impotent against Castro because the people who've remained on the island nation mostly support Castro. The wealthier white descendants of former Spanish rulers mostly fled to Florida, so there aren't many left in Cuba to help sow discord from the inside (this seems necessary for one of these "colored revolutions" to actually be effective). How many Black Cubans have you seen fleeing to Florida?
I know they speak Farsi in Iran, Cynthia. You need to go back and read my initial post and you'll see that I was wondering why people protesting the Iraq invasion (they speak Arabic in Iraq, Cynthia) weren't holding Arabic signs to appeal to Iraqis. Reading comprehension is fundamental...
Amandla,
They won the election, like in Florida but were denied the victory.
By the way, they are not claiming to be anti theocracy, in fact they clearly declared they fully support the regime under a different president. That is all. Where do you get all these misinformations from?
Speaking of silly points, I was nice the last time you showed up. Not now. It's wasted on bureaucratic functionaries of the state.
Look, I'll grant you that there are a contingent of posters who are laser-focused on any US role in the protests. I'll also grant that the case to support a conspiracy theory isn't very good, if it's any good at all. Unlike you, I've worked in that world (10 years in MI), and I personally know people who have been involved in destabilizing operations in Iran. But let's discount all of that for the moment.
Here's what pisses me the fuck off. Most of those--like me--weighing in against the protests were not necessarily siding with the mullahs. There was an initial issue that was critical, and in your triumphalist orgy and immediate identification with your fellow urban cosmopolitans, it apparently didn't occur to you that the central claim justifying the demonstrations was incorrect. Many of us smelled a rat, and as time passes, our case grows stronger and yours weaker. The difference? We were worried about the disenfranchisement of ordinary Iranians who--for better or worse--voted for the current President by a solid margin. This wasn't about supporting a theocracy, for chrissakes, it was a reaction to a possibly undemocratic usurpation of what little popular power that exists by a vocal and resource-capable middle and upper middle class group. We weren't certain, we were mostly cautious.
It takes a lot of metaphorical balls this late in the game with the available information out there to waltz in here on your privileged pony to decry "neo-Marxist" bloggers leading us naive working waifs into conspiracy land without engaging at all the central premise of teh argument the bulk of us have made. The election was fair, and until there's proof otherwise, you were supporting an undemocratic action, regardless of what you or I think about the frigging theocracy. I guarantee you, if this looked like a genuine cross-class movement, I would've stood there right with you and the rest of the staff at the Nation.
The first point in this article is unproven still, and on that, everything hinges. You have a lot of gall to desacribe what little leftist press we have as "cynical", when you guys are surfing the CNN wave all the way into these boards.
Excellent post, Skip. But, as you will note, your current gadfly keeps buzzing. An unpleasant noise, to be sure, but nothing more.
"There was an initial issue that was critical, and in your triumphalist orgy and immediate identification with your fellow urban cosmopolitans,"
Why are people who are so concerned about the working class normally, not concerned that independent unions are banned, those who try to organise have been jailed, May Day parades have been banned, etc?
Why no identification with your fellow working class?
This must be said gadfly..:) I AM concerned about those issues. Why do you treat this as a mutually exclusive situation? Are you telling me that the protests occured to establish free unionization and working class organization in Iran (like we're doing so well here, right?)? Are you suggesting that I adopt the position that the election--fair or not--be overturned because ordinary Iranians voted against their interests? Would I do such a thing here?
Newsflash: Each of your pimps assume that I approve of the regime per se. I do not. I genuinely wish Iranians would reject a theocratic state. That aid, I respect their sovereignty, and the will of the majority of Iran. If the majority wanted revolution, by all means color me in. But there's no evidence that they do.
You don't need to be snarky with idea that supporting a democratic choice is incompatible with agitating and supporting the class interests of Iranians. They can both be done.
Touché.
The U.S. has indeed interfered inside Iran through the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) and using Nothern Iraq as one of the outposts for intrusion inside Iran. Twitter is another technological device used by opposition groups funded and supported by the U.S. This opposition started during the Bush years and has continued into the Obama administration. Consult the following article written by Michael Barker "Catalyst for Iranian Resistance" on December 18, 2006 at: http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/2501
Yes, the NED and meddling by the U.S. has been present in Iran for a number of years no matter what anyone suggests otherwise, and I do not care whether that individual is on the left or the right spectrum. Here is part of Barker's article:
"The 2005 Iranian election was "met with worldwide approval." It was, it seemed, a signal to the rest of the world that Iran was preparing itself for a more western style of democratic governance. But, despite the apparent legitimacy of the elections, it became evident in February 2006 that the US administration was now in "Iranian democracy promoting mode." It was then that Condoleezza Rice first announced she was requesting $85 million from Congress for the newly formed Office of Iranian Affairs. This initiative built upon the earlier activism of Senators Rick Santorum (R-Pa.) and John Cornyn (R-Texas) who had introduced the Iran Freedom and Support Act of 2004 which declared the need for democracy and regime change in Iran. However, to date the NED's activities in Iran (which are carried out openly and even described on their website) have not even been mentioned in the media. Their "democratic" rhetoric seems to have worked its wonders and allowed the NED to completely slip under the radar of the world's media. In fact, even before the advent of the Iran Freedom and Support Act the NED had been openly meddling in Iranian affairs. According to the NED's online project database five Iranian groups received NED aid prior to 2004: the Iran Teachers Association, the Foundation for Democracy in Iran, the National Iranian American Council, the Women's Learning Partnership, and the Abdorrahaman Boroumand Foundation. Therefore, in a bid to understand what US-led "democracy" will mean for Iran, the activities of each of these organisations will now be examined in turn....The Iran Teachers Association (ITA) was one of the first Iranian groups to receive NED aid. Between 1991 and 2003 they were the recipients of seven NED grants. These grants – worth a total of just over $300,000 – were distributed to support the ITA's quarterly cultural and political journal, Mehregan. In 1992 the neoconservative Bradley Foundation provided them with a further $25,000 grant to help build a democratic Iran. Unfortunately, due to the closure of their website little other information has been obtained regarding their activities....The next recipient of NED largess was the US-based Foundation for Democracy in Iran (FDI), which was founded in 1995 by Kenneth Timmerman, Peter Rodman and Joshua Muravchick(with the assistance of some unidentified Iranian exiles). The FDI received their first $50,000 grant from the NED in 1995, which was used to support their work in "document[ing and publicising] the human rights situation inside Iran through first-hand monitoring." The following year they received their second NED grant ($25,000), which enabled them to continue their documentation of human rights violations, which were to "be aired through international broadcast services such as the Voice of America and the BBC, in both English and Farsi." The value of these start-up funds, not to mention the power of an NED endorsement, must have been invaluable to the FDI as a budding "democracy promoter.""
Kenneth R. Timmerman wrote on June 11, 2009, in an article entitled "State Department Backs 'Reformists' in Wild Iranian Election" at Newsmax that:
"And then, there’s the talk of a “green revolution” in Tehran, named for the omnipresent green scarves and banners that fill the air at Mousavi campaign events....The National Endowment for Democracy has spent millions of dollars during the past decade promoting “color” revolutions in places such as Ukraine and Serbia, training political workers in modern communications and organizational techniques....Some of that money appears to have made it into the hands of pro-Mousavi groups, who have ties to non-governmental organizations outside Iran that the National Endowment for Democracy funds...."
Read Timmerman's entire article @ http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/Iran_election_Reformists/2009/06/11/224025.html
Obama is not so innocent here folks regarding Iran. Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton are ardent anti-Iranian foes, to say the least, as they make continued threats towards bombing Iran. Have a good day and stay away from that Kool-Aid. Anyone who thinks the U.S. has nothing to do with the current unrest in Iran is either dumb or quite naive.
Hm, Newsmax is a pretty biased right-wing magazine, I would not trust jack that it publishes. And training citizens in repressive countries in political and communications skills doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Maybe we should do that more in our country too.
As Michael Barker pointed out above, Mr. Kenneth Timmerman has been deeply involved in the destablizing of Iran effort dating back to the mid-1990s. Just because Timmerman writes at "biased right-wing magazine" named "Newsmax" means little. Actually, what Timmerman wrote is quite telling and revealing since he is on the inside of the U.S. anti-Iran policy and is an ardent neoconservative. Barer wrote that:
"the US-based Foundation for Democracy in Iran (FDI), which was founded in 1995 by Kenneth Timmerman, Peter Rodman and Joshua Muravchick(with the assistance of some unidentified Iranian exiles). The FDI received their first $50,000 grant from the NED in 1995, which was used to support their work in "document[ing and publicising] the human rights situation inside Iran through first-hand monitoring..."
I would say you are 100% wrong in this case regarding Newsmax and Mr. Kenneth Timmerman, who wrote a very revealing article regarding the motives of the U.S. State Department. I do not share the views of most of what Newsmax says either, but, when you have an individual who has worked on the inside of U.S. policy, one should not be that DUMB to dismiss it out of hand either! Good day.
So, a guy who was condemned for fearmongering about Iran's nuclear program, wrote a book about France's "betrayal" of the U.S. after the invasion in Iraq, and who claims to represent an Iranian democratic movement which is probably as fake as Chalabi's influence within Iraq was, is a credible source for what Obama, a Democrat, is doing to destabilize Iran. Um, I don't think so.
And what is it that the NED is doing that is so insidious? It looks to me like it's trying to create democratic political infrastructure inside Iran. What's wrong with that?
You just agreed with me that the NED has been involved inside Iran, and thus, does not at all border on the "so insidious."
Often times and in this case, especially on foreign policy issues, political elites running the show are in complete agreement, (regardless of political party) and this includes Iran. Check out the BiPartisan Council which deals in foreign affairs. There is plenty of cross-over agreement as well--just look at the Council on Foreign Relations in which members of both politcal parties take part and write similar screeds of world affairs. The IRI is the Republican arm of the NED and the NDI is the Democratic Party's arm of the NED as well. So, yes, it is not out of the ordinary that Mr. Timmerman and "Obama, a Democrat" are in agreement regarding efforts "to destabilize Iran."
Anyway, you have just acquiesced to my points, yet,perhaps, do not realize it. Take care and have a very nice evening.
If the NED has interfered (and I'm really just taking your word for it that it has), you still haven't explained what the big deal is. Since you brought it up, please go ahead and explain.
Covert Interference is what the big deal is even as the U.S. lies that it's some independent as well as legitimate movement going on in Iran, free of external influences.
You need to take your blinders off as well. You seem quite gullible to say the least here.
Democracy movements MUST be indigenous and authentic within their cultures, not products of foreign intervention whose aim is to install polyarcy, which purports to be democracy but is a fraud and maintians control by the oligarchy.
Selfdetermination is a very radical concept that scares the hell out of the elite, which is why they work against it--witness Honduras.
I will answer the question posed at the end of this piece:
As with Honduras--where School of the Americas gorillas and the oligarchy physically assaulted and kidnapped the elected president--I do not support coups, whether they are troglodite gorillas or "color me green" Tehranis.
You either support the rule of law or you don't.
I support the elected presidents in both Iran (the incumbent) and Honduras.
Considering that the USites allowed the Bush Gang to steal TWO elections, no USite has any business commenting about democracies.
"Considering that the USites allowed the Bush Gang to steal TWO elections, no USite has any business commenting about democracies."
So, why comment about Honduras? Do the Honduran people not have a right to non-interference from the rest of the world?
I would think Reese Erlich could write better than this, but this is all he came up with.
1. Reese Erlich certainly knows the US government, CIA, have spent hundreds of millions of dollars to overthrow the Iranian government. But he argues that just because the US does that elsewhere, and in Iran before, doesn't mean the US, CIA is doing it now.
That is a lot Reese is asking us to swallow.
2. Reese writes, "Let's assume for the moment that the U.S. was trying to secretly manipulate the demonstrations for its own purposes. Did it succeed? Or were the protests reflecting 30 years of cumulative anger at a reactionary system that oppresses workers, women, and ethnic minorities, indeed the vast majority of Iranians?"
There is no reason to hve these two questions opposed in this way. They can both easily be true. US government agencies obviously used legitimate grievances in Eastern Europe to serve its purposes to topple the pro-Soviet regimes and establish pro-US governments. That does not mean the revolts were CIA creations.
3. There is no evidence the Obama administration "engineered or significantly influenced the demonstrations." Likewise, it could be said about Honduras coup. Shall we just wait until the documents come out? Do we think the US government is not intimately involved with what just went on in Iran and Honduras?
4. Erlish uses a fair amount of prejudical rhetoric about Ahmadinejad. The fact is the Iranian govenrment has sent aid to Hamas. The US and Israel imprison the Gazans. The Egyptian government helps institute the blockade. Let's cut the rhetoric - do you support the blockade of Gaza or do you support sending them aid?
5. Finally, if Reese wants to ask 'Which side are you on?" let's see what Chavez says:
"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has accused the CIA of being behind anti-government protests rocking Iran, and repeated his support for Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
Chavez, who has tried to cultivate ties with the Islamic republic, said the “imperial hand” of the US Central Intelligence Agency — and of Europe — was behind post-election clashes that had killed at least 17 people.
“People are in the streets, some are dead, they have snipers, and behind this is the CIA, the imperial hand of European countries and the United States,” he said, “from my point of view that is what is happening in Iran.”
Chavez urges 'respect' for Iran election outcome:
"We call on the world to respect Iran because there are attempts to undermine the strength of the Iranian revolution," said Chavez on Sunday in his weekly radio and television address.
The Venezuelan Foreign Ministry also issued a statement blasting "the fierce and unfounded campaign from outside [of Iran] to discredit" Iran's president.
Hugo Chavez called Mahmoud Ahmadinejad "a courageous fighter for the Islamic Revolution, the defense of the Third World, and in the struggle against imperialism" - a reference to the US government's foreign policy. (AP)
There has been a major imperialist campaign against Iran. That is the primary issue for us who live here in the US. It is not whether or not we support the demonstrators, whether the election was accurate, etc.
The question, "Whose side are you on?" is - are you for or against this imperialist campaign to overthrown the Iranian government? Are you more comfortable on the same side as Israel, the US government, Saudi Arabia, Britain, Germany, or on the same side as Venezuela, Cuba, Hezbollah.
Very good post, Stan. Thanks for laying it out so clearly. I would only add, in reference to your last two sentences, that "we" needn't be on anyone's "side," but only on the side of truth and justice. We can be against this imperialist campaign to overthrow the Iranian government without being "on the side" of the Iranian government, just as we could passionately oppose going to war against Iran without having the least bit of sympathy for Saddam Hussein.
Excellent, and the level of discourse that had already occurred that I alluded to at the top.
The trolls always seem to devise new means to change the subject of a thread.
Whenever so much effort is exerted in the manner demonstrated here, 9 times out of 10 the article contains a high degree of validity which should be discussed as it appears, not pushed aside by spurious slants.
I know Reese personally and have discussed many issues with him over time and I have always found him full of integrity. He states what he sees. He brings the insight of being 'on the ground'. Iranian friends of mine tend to agree with these observations of his. I was initially surprised to hear this take on the issues from them, but their sharing of news from friends and relatives helped me see a little differently.
Just a thought.
There is nothing that gores a progressive's/liberal's pet theory developed in a vacuum, than a different point of view, which may or may not be valid. It is usually always condemned out of hand using innuendos and casting aspersions rather than opting for objective discussion.
Has "the trolls" now mutated into code for "my opponents"? Seriously. Wtf?
Your first point: You bitch about validity, and your rigorous test for determing validity is apparently the degree to which passion is expended in length? Are you serious? That's not an argument. It's a dismissal.
Your second point is that you know the author and he's a nice guy. I would agree that people who vomit out things like "cia hack" are simply jerking their knees, and if that's who you are referring to, then your point is fine to that end. But the bulk of these posts aren't like that. I actually thought it was a decent piece, but as has been for these past couple of weeks, the central premise is highly contested, and I think your version is losing ground.
Your third point is also non-argumentative. If we disagree with you, we're casting aspersions. Thanks for leaving us so much room for "objective" discussion.
You have two camps--with a solid amoutn of overlap between them--that challenge your narrative of a rigged election resisted by a noble force of Iraqi everypersons. The first camp, and i think the smallest, are those who simply assume that the US/UK etc. have engineered the whole thing. By focusing on those people you and most of the liberal writers who have lectured us relentlessly over the past two weeks are going for the lowest hanging fruit possible. I think this disingenuous.
The other camp, where I would be, consists of those who thought that mainstream liberals once more projected a vision of reality that might not have existed, ran withthe first ball that sounded good from the MSM, and ran with that ball deep into the night. That the election was rigged was an assumption driving most of the points of view early on, but it was an assumption without sufficient proof, and an assumption with some strong agrgument against it. Instead of engaging there, large numbers of self-congratulating jerk offs started immediately setting up the strawman of "how can you be a lefty and love a theocracy!" argument. It was BS then, and it's BS now.
THe price of being wrong on your central assumption--regardless of how many well-heeled Iranians you "know" (as if any other kind show up to our universities, right?)--is that you were, in fact, advocating the overturning of a reasonably democratic electoral process because you most strongly identified both with the narrative from the dissenters as well as, frankly, their class.
At least engage us here if you think us wrong.
"THe price of being wrong on your central assumption--regardless of how many well-heeled Iranians you "know" "
Yes, because any Iranian saying things that disagree with your ideas is "well-heeled" and "urban cosmopolitan".
Why are you not supporting the people who are trying to organise independent labour unions? Who want workers to have the right to organise?
answered above. there is no contradiction. i will support popular determination first and foremost, because I expect the same courtesy in my own land.