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George Bush’s Gift To The World: The End of American Imperialism
After all, James Buchanan, the previous aspirant to the title, merely did nothing while the South seceded. Hah! You'll have to do better than that, Jimmy, if you want to wear this crown!
Bush did far better, of course. It would appear to be the one thing in his entire life he actually worked hard at, and the one challenge he was able to meet successfully. This was an astonishingly destructive presidency, that's true even despite the fact that we don't really know much about his administration, because in addition to being the worst, it was also the most secretive ever. (I'm sure that's just a coincidence, too.) Moreover, that's also even considering that most Americans still vastly underestimate the depravity of Team Bush. As I have argued previously, if you think they were ‘merely' arrogant bunglers with exceptionally bad politics, you've grossly underestimated them. In fact, they were predators who launched their class warfare agenda behind the smoke-screen of national security, faux patriotism and secret government.
Does this record of unparalleled devastation mean that Bush never did anything right in eight years? No, though it's pretty much the case that he never did anything right on purpose.
Unquestionably, however, Bush did make some positive contributions to American life, even if they were completely inadvertent, and even if they were dwarfed by the swath of destruction he left all across the landscape. Put simply, George W. Bush's greatest success was that he gave a very bad name to very bad things.
Like the Republican Party, for example. Or conservative ideology. Or theocracy. Or presidents with the last name of Bush. Or emotional midgets who seek the White House as a salve for their personal psychological neediness.
We can be grateful for all these contributions, and I certainly am - though "thanks" is not likely what I would say if I had the pleasure of relating my assessment of Mr. Bush to him directly. More likely it would be something closer to the gracious words Dick "Dick" Cheney had for Patrick Leahy early on in the administration, when the two bumped into each other on the Senate floor. Those remarks were not, shall we say, fit for print in a family newspaper.
But I digress.
George Bush left us many gifts, but perhaps the greatest of them is that he has ruined the sport of imperialism in America, maybe forever.
Admittedly, that may of course be wishful thinking. Woe be unto the world, for example, should there be another 9/11 type of event. Somebody somewhere would have to pay in spades, and they likely wouldn't be nice white folks.
And god only knows, alternatively, what Americans might be capable of under conditions of real resource deprivation. Considering what we've already done while being the richest and most powerful country in the world, it's scary to think of what we could do with our back genuinely to the wall.
But leaving those unusual situations aside, it must be said that, after Iraq, the fun has really gone out of eviscerating small foreign countries, even those foolish enough to locate themselves on top of our oil.
Imperialism used to be a fairly sporting avocation for gentlemen of a certain class. You could occupy hapless Latin American countries, topple Iranian democracies, and simultaneously sponsor apartheid suppression of whole populations, still having time left by mid-afternoon for a couple belts with the boys down at the club, all in celebration of a good day's work at the office. It was jolly good fun for all. Except, of course, for all for whom it wasn't.
Unfortunately, that latter category included more or less the entirety of the southern hemisphere, and not a few in the north to boot. But, so what? We're Americans! Caring about the morality of imperialism is for pre-dictatorship revolutionary anti-colonialist leaders and washed-up European former empires who can't get it up anymore.
Truth be told, we're now closer to being in that latter category than not, and we can thank George W. Bush for that, one of the few contributions of this complete and utter disaster going by the name of the 43rd presidency.
I'd say we're more than a bit lucky for that outcome, too. Imagine if Iraq had been a success. Imagine if it had been the cakewalk they obviously thought it would be. Indeed, one of the great ironies of American politics is that Iraq probably readily could have been a ‘great success', at least in terms of what could be marketed as such to a foolish American public.
In that sense, we are really quite fortunate, in a perverse sort of way, that Bush was as much a lazy boob as he was a warmonger. We are lucky that Rumsfeld was as dogmatic about his 21 century military ideas as Cheney was a completely psycho amoral sociopath. For had they simply run an occupation that was as carefully planned and as adequately staffed as the invasion, or had they toppled Saddam and then promptly left, "Mission Accomplished" would have been a lot more than some banner duct-taped onto the bridge of an aircraft carrier.
And that would have been very bad news indeed for the rest of the world. Syria, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba - there's no telling where they might have gone next, and likely with the full support of the American public, at that point popping the buttons off their jingoistic shirts (made in Thailand, of course), their chests puffed out to the wall.
Americans were already growing dubious of regressive exploits in international adventurism, it seems to me. I remember laughing at the senior Bush, whose first pronouncement after defeating the pathetically under-matched Iraqi military in 1991 was "By God, we've licked the Vietnam syndrome once and for all!" Yeah, he actually said that. All I could think at the time was, if you have to say it, dude, it ain't really happenin'. And all I can think now is, out of 300 million people in this country, did we really go to the Bush family twice to staff the presidency?
But, in fact, the Vietnam syndrome had not been licked. That war was a traumatic experience, and it changed public perceptions about the desirability of war itself. On top of which, America was not completely immune to the general Western post-World War II movement away from militarism as a means of settling disputes. Then there's always been our long-standing vision of ourselves as both peace-loving and anti-imperialistic - however absurd those perceptions often were in light of actual practice. These also provided at least a speed-bump along the road to war in all but the more obvious cases.
Indeed, two things about public opinion and war in America struck me as pretty notable, but not much noted, these last years. One is that there was a surprising - I thought - lack of blood lust after 9/11. I guess part of that was that there was no state enemy to be attacked, as there had been in the past, and part of that was the foregone conclusion that we would be invading Afghanistan. But, really, I'm surprised there wasn't a far more intense call for revenge. As one measure of the absence of this, consider that Osama bin Laden still has not been captured or killed, almost a decade (!) later, and that nobody seems much to care about that or mention it very often.
The other thing worth noting is that the public was, in fact, dubious about the Iraq invasion, right up until the weeks before. People realized that it was bogus, at some basic level, and they certainly had a hard time connecting it to 9/11. It took a marketing full-court press to eventually garner public support for the war (America's pathetic excuse for a Congress was a lot easier to roll). It never worked abroad (another reason Americans were a bit slower to come on-board), but in the context of post-9/11 fears, a general tendency to trust the president, and the regressive movement's prowess at equating militarism with patriotism, the Madison Avenue campaign finally produced a tenuous majority support for the Iraq invasion in the weeks right before it actually went down.
I think it's slightly encouraging that, even in that context, it still took a real effort to sell the war. It's also seriously discouraging, on the other hand, that it could be sold, and that it was. But, as noted, this was a tenuous acceptance. Had the war gone well it would have amplified the militarism in the Bush team and the country's willingness to let them run rampant. Since it went disastrously, it had the opposite effect.
Iraq is probably not the last time America will go to war. But I think it's fair to say that this country - its nose once more bloodied by a stupid imperial adventure, stupidly prosecuted - will be that much more reticent to repeat the experience. We do learn in America. It is often a painfully slow process, sometimes punctuated by reverse trajectories (can you say ‘creation science'), but we do occasionally exhibit the classic clinical signs of a student who can be taught, however reluctantly and inadvertantly.
And thus we owe a debt of gratitude to the Iraqis, perhaps a million of whom have been murdered, another four or five million dislocated, and countless others wounded - emotionally, if not physically, if not both - for helping us to learn. And the people of Syria and Iran and much of the rest of the developing world owe these Iraqis thanks as well, for giving the US pause from invading other countries at will.
America's place in the world is likely to be entering a new period now, for several reasons. One is that the low-key successes of the Obama administration will help underscore the sheer lunacy of the Bush years, and all the policies associated with them. Another is that we are rapidly coming face-to-face with the reality that empire is expensive. As our standards of living go from mere steady decline to sheer precipitous decline, you'll know that we've actually turned that corner when mainstream politicians finally have the courage to talk about scaling back expenditures on the obscenely bloated American military machine.
But, in the end, it may truthfully be said that no one did more to discourage American militaristic tendencies than Jingo George, himself, however odd that may seem.
And, who knows? If I ever met him, maybe I could even bring myself to thank him for that, after all.
But only, of course, from above, after I had decked him.
- Posted in




93 Comments so far
Show AllThe line from Monty Python I love the best = "I ain't dead yet". Imperialism could speak that line........
To paraphrase Jerry Sienfeld dialog on Sienfeld,
"Did you have to do that [way]..." to end the immature dreams of imperialism.
Wasn't there another way.
toophat for you!
Great article but; one HUGE BUT is there not a place called Afghanistan where we are slaughtering and escalating as the USA public quietly,economically fearfully shiver in their defunct SUVs?
One goal of the Neocons was to make entitlements impossible by bankrupting the Federal government. The Banksters Heist was successfull. I wonder if the sectarian violence in Iraq was not actually promoted by the USA in order to totally annihilate Iraq. bush also did pretty good job of ignoring the poor, destroying the middle class and concentrating the wealth in a few hands. He also accomplished alot of enviormental devestation.
I believe the premise of this articles is essentially correct. It has been under the Bush years that many Americans, I believe, have come to the realization that America is an empire, myself included. I was aware of certain things, like the coup in Iran in 1953 and funding of the Contras in Nicaragua, but there was still a disconnect. It must have thought of these as isolated incidents carried out by bad people or bad presidents, but somehow they weren’t part of a comprehensive plan of world hegemony. The cold war, I am sure had a lot to do with it, since we were brainwashed into believing that the Soviet Union was a much bigger threat than it actually was. Still, I failed to see it through the Clinton years, after the Soviet Union had dissolved. It wasn’t until Bush started his wars of aggression that I even considered the imperial behavior of the U.S. during the 90s. Bush offered a contrast with Clinton, but not between empire and non-empire, but a contrast in competence. Clinton was a better manager, while Bush has been a boob who has brought the empire to its knees. For this we should be somewhat grateful. But with that realization, it makes me very skeptical about Obama. I see an attempt on his part to manage the empire with a friendlier face. He gave an interview to Al-Arabiya where he identified with the Muslim audience, yet he takes Israel’s side in the latest conflict in Gaza, and promises to help the IDF tighten the noose on the resistance. He promises to leave Iraq and close Guantanamo — the most visible aspects of Bush’s failed imperial strategy — while escalating the war in Afghanistan and keeping open less visible military prisons in the Middle East that have been the site of the same type of atrocities as Guantanamo. Just because you can’t see the empire, it doesn’t mean it’s not there. We will have accomplished nothing if we allow Obama to take the empire back underground.
Good post JeffreyK
Very sane and well stated comment. I recall noticing the world hegemony project well underway even during the Carter years. It wasn't as pronounced as it became under Reagan and Clinton, but the signs were clearly there, at least for anyone who was reading Chomsky in the '70s.
Bush's in-your-face, however bungled, efforts at Full Spectrum Dominance have made the American agenda crystal clear for all the world to see, and its failure is Obama's inheritance. How he can pull any living rabbits out of that tattered hat will be something to behold. I doubt such magic will be forthcoming. But that won't stop him from trying.
Most all Obama's stated foreign policy objectives are firmly parallel with imperialistic designs, even if it means a lot of cleaning up and rearranging of the furniture after Bush's wrecking crew left its hideous mess. He may close Gitmo, pissing off the Limbaugh rightists in Congress, and he may make at least symbolic moves to ramp down our aggressive posture in Iraq, but if he only moves the military chess pieces to Afghanistan and Pakistan he won't be showing any signs of backing away from the urge to fully dominate the spectrum. It will only constitute a new imperial strategy.
Obama simply can't have it both ways, and he'll eventually figure that out, or he'll be just another bull-in-the-china-shop president. And we can't afford any more of those.
Sioux Rose
EPHRAIM: Very-well put. I was thinking along similar lines.
JEFFREY: Right on analysis, too.
Well said, sir. Thank you.
Mr. Green writes:
"As one measure of the absence of this, consider that Osama bin Laden still has not been captured or killed, almost a decade (!) later, and that nobody seems much to care about that or mention it very often."
What is this sentence saying? Is it saying that
1) the reason for bin Laden's not having been captured lies in the absence of blood lust in the citizenry; or that
2) the lack of concern for bin Laden's not having been captured is a sign of the absence of blood lust in the citizenry?
If the first, the claim is extremely naive. Indeed, what would the phony war on terror be without bin Laden?
The other thing that needs pointing out about this article's argument is that the citizenry's sentiments about the desirability of war or the degree of its blood lust seems to have little to do with U.S. imperialism. Indeed, the massive domestic demonstrations against war in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq left BushCo unchanged in its determination to invade and occupy that country.
That is not to deny, however, that there is a relationship between U.S. imperialism and the citizens of the United States, but it is much more complex than what the author makes it out to be. Ideological and economic factors play a large role in the determinatiion of that relationship. Furthermore, the ideological component includes massive strategies of deception of the population.
How about one more;
3) The bin Laden family were close friends of the Bush family, and everyone knew Osama wasn't behind the attack on 9/11, and that's why bush worked so hard all these years to keep our minds and us away from areas where he might have been.
Yes and no. Let me briefly explain what I mean,
1) It seems to me that your point is included in the second alternative. It is certainly compatible with it.
2) Although it is true that the FBI's Web site refuses to accuse Osama bin Laden for the attacks of 9/11, and the White Paper promised by the Bush administration, which was to make the case that Al Qaeda organized and carried out the attacks, has not been produced, and the famous tape allegedly discovered by the U.S. in Kabul at the end of 2001 may be a fake, I do not doubt that airplanes were crashed into WTC 1 and 2, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania on the eleventh, and that Al Qaeda organized and carried out those attacks.
That view does not rule out, however, that WTC 1,2, and 7 were destroyed, or rather pulverized, with some help from domestic agents. There is strong evidence to believe that there were two attacks on 9/11: the one involving the hijacked airplanes, and a second one that, under cover of the first one, consisted in the controlled demolition of WTC 1, 2, and 7.
Regarding the Pentagon, I side with Jim Hoffman's account in his papers "The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics" and "The Pentagon Attack: What the Physical Evidence Shows."
john lear, the son of the guy who invented the lear jet and one of the most accredited pilots in the us, has stated that he couldn't hit the towers
he has also offered a cash reward for anyone who could do it in a flight simulator - he has offered everyone 6 passes to hit it
no planes on 9/11
no 19 arabs
also, fyi, the world trade center was comprised of 7 buildings - all towers - 1,2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7
smallest - 15 stories
all of them were destroyed on 9/11 - by two planes - no chance
none of them were even hit by planes
as far as the pentagon goes - you have to be a deluded idiot (many posters qualify for this by the way) to think a large plane could hit the building face at full throttle and create a hole that was about 20 by 40 feet and leave no plane parts
the impact didn't even break the windows that were 10 feet away on wither side of the impact
the lawn was not even scorched
use your head for christ sake
the only 4 planes to disintegrate completely upon impact in the history of aviation all occured on 9/11 - no chance
just like the only steel frame structures in the history of the world to collapse from fire - you guessed it 9/11 - once again no chance
like barnum said never give a sucker an even break
the same principles apply to jfk's assassination
oswald was, as he himslef said, a patsy - he was a loyal cia asset from the time he was 15 years old
again as he said: i didn't kill anyone
in order to make that bullshit work they had to keep him without charge, deny his right to counsel and then them kill in the basement of a police station with a drug dealing cia asset as the shooter
wake up sheeple
cheers, b
actually, as the 9/11 commission report shows, lee harvey oswald was the only person in any of the cockpits of those planes.
Sioux Rose
VDB: good one!
me too - i say good one vdb
but more seriously, go here:
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
no planes
so everyone can re-jig their half informed opinions based on their sensibilities to include the notion that none of these flights took place
none of them by the way are on the ntsb database - no flights
i hope more people will get informed and i mean really informed about 9/11
no planes, dew weapons, inside job
rolling back the curtain on this event will go a long way to rolling back the fascist government
cheers, b
me too - i say good one vdb
but more seriously, go here:
http://www.pilotsfor911truth.org/
no planes
so everyone can re-jig their half informed opinions based on their sensibilities to include the notion that none of these flights took place
none of them by the way are on the ntsb database - no flights
i hope more people will get informed and i mean really informed about 9/11
no planes, dew weapons, inside job
rolling back the curtain on this event will go a long way to rolling back the fascist government
cheers, b
I won't even discuss the thesis that there were no airplanes involved in the destruction caused on 9/11. It's about as compelling as the thesis that no one ever walked on the Moon or that the Earth is flat.
As for what happened at the Pentagon, as I said, I am in agreement with Jim Hoffman (see his papers at www.911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html).
I'm not a pilot and don't know anything about john lear's offer, but if it is true that hitting the twin towers would have been near impossible, how is possible that pilots land on narrow runways every time?
Just asking.
geez marco - google john lear and he'll tell you
cmon take two minutes
its not as easy as it looks to hit a building a full speed - that is why planes don't land at 350 mph
landing on a runway in a plane that has decelerated and is not riding on the thermal updrafts from 1000 buildings makes it easier
cheers, b
Bryan, just so you know, I use to work for the commericial airlines and my wife and I are frequent flyers, so have some contact with people that are knowledgeable and I would agree with Mr. Lear. As for Oswald, to all the sheeple that are naive enough to buy the GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY THEORY I have a bridge I would like to sell them in Nowhere, Alaska! When Ruby was asked why he shot Oswald his reply was: " I FELT SORRY FOR JACKIE ". Please--- the guy is an hit man and a thug from Chicago, that was running a strip joint in Dallas and he felt sorry for her! The guy was a small time hood and gangster that never felt sorry for anyone! I believe Ruby was told either you take Oswald out or we take you out. I know one thing for sure: you have to assume what you are told "officially" by your government is a lie and they are guilty until proven innocent and that goes back to 1492!
Sioux Rose
PAUL: Your post rings rather true. So much for checks and balances.
Byran D,
I admire your passion for delving into the truth of _9_!_!_, although I feel that you've been too accepting of some spurious theories ( bait: especially created to catch-up people and then intrinsically discredit their overall ideas, because of small errors along the way ).
Both DEW and no airplanes are examples, that discredit the much more plausible nano-therate explosives and months of preparation in WTC's key structural elements. I will attempt to provide some arguments for you to consider for further investigation:
{_1_} I'm a physicist who has worked in the area of DEW, and the possibility of several 747s lasers all together ( plus several buildings ) -- can not get even close to the 'missing energy' of collapse exhibited to pulverize the concrete and create various sizes of iron sphericals in the dust.
{_2_} Most DEW weapons have extremely long cycle times, and although extremely intense for a few nanoseconds - they cannot sustain a glimmer of sci fi beam weapons ( yet ) needed to progressively ( over 8 s ) destroy many independent substructures ( e.g. sky lobby floors, ~ 250 pillars ).
{_3_} They are also beyond normal understanding immensely large and complicated machines, requiring intense concentration and huge numbers of personnel to operate reliably. One weapon is not conceivably capable, while dozens would never all work at the same time ( w/o months of real time coordinated practice ).
{_4_} I also have much experience with targeting systems, and the degree of coordination and complexity mandated, is far beyond any imaginable array of super computers -- to become available in perhaps decades.
{_5_} Besides, DEW weapons have a serious limitation when used in dusty environments, as any line-of-sight instrument must first cut through the dust clouds or lose massively in dispersion, absorption, and inability to aim for specific structural elements holding up WTCs.
¿ Why eliminate the planes entirely is my question?
… as they are readily available and many eyewitnesses buttress the videos available -- so eliminating them is a likely suspicious trick -- to make other honestly true objections easier to dismiss.
You well suggest we continue to question the official narrative ( "their" conspiracy theory ), and investigate on our own -- and that is excellent advice. Perhaps there is much more for you to learn as well ?
Namaste
David Green writes; “But, really, I'm surprised there wasn't a far more intense call for revenge. As one measure of the absence of this, consider that Osama bin Laden still has not been captured or killed, almost a decade (!) later, and that nobody seems much to care about that or mention it very often.”
Bin Laden was Bush’s enabler, without the bearded boogie man Bush would never have been able to implement his neoconservative political agenda. I suspect that if the truth ever came out the real reason that too few troops U.S. were tasked to invade Afghanistan and the Northern Alliance was employed to engage al Qaeda at Tora Bora was to intentionally allow bin Laden to escape thereby making the “War on Terror” endless. (It’s also possible that bin Laden rode out of Afghanistan aboard a Pakistani helicopter.)
Secondly Bush, in the last days of his administration, made a big fu@#$%# deal that there had not been a second terrorist attack on the U.S. Bush claimed that his policies were the reason there had not been another attack. The real reason, from the point of view of al Qaeda, was that because Bush invaded Iraq there was no need for another attack. Bin Laden played Bush like a puppet, releasing tapes before the elections of 2002 and 2004 that insured the right-wingers would win those elections. In fact, it’s possible that the republican loss of 2006 was due to bin Laden not releasing a tape and the republicans Diebolded too few votes expecting a bin Laden bump at the poles.
I do think bin Laden was responsible for the attacks of 9/11, but I think there was far more foreknowledge of the attacks by the inner circle of the Bush administration than what has been acknowledged. That there is not one word about the insider trades of put options of American and United airlines stock in the days before the attacks in the report of The 9/11 Commission, and that the trail of these trades leads to a bank with ties to the CIA…where the trail supposedly ends, stinks to high heaven. (See also Odigo, and the Israeli “art students” and “Moving Company.)
Good Madhoosier
Thanks, when I look at the tape of Bush reading “My Pet Goat” the morning of 9/11 the only explanation I can think of for his lack of reaction when informed that the nation was under attack is that it was not a surprise to him. Also Condi Rice’s statement “I don’t think anybody could have predicted that these people…would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile.” has always struck me as the worst told lie I’ve ever heard.
look at the tape again and you may notice that the book is upside down
his reaction though is more nuanced - i think he shit his pants when he realized that an operation like that was being carried out without him being notified
more to the point though is this: why didn't the secret service whisk him away
the nation was under attack
and why did he fly around the coutnry for the whole day doing nothing
bush was not involved - think about it - who would trust that fool with anything
cheers, b
Almost certainly this was a lie to cover her pathetic ass. Otherwise, she was one of the worst national security advisors (or the worst?) we've ever had.
Sioux Rose
MADH: I vote for the not-so convincing mushroom cloud tout of fear and damnation.
mad writes: "I do think bin Laden was responsible for the attacks of 9/11,"
oh yeah - how is that
there has never been any evidence offered by anyone that even implicates obl in 9/11
the fbi has him on the 10 most wanted list as usama bl for bombings in africa in the 90's and they say themselves there is no evidence to even connect him to 9/11
get your facts right
the put options - if you spent more than 20 seconds looking into 9/11 - are a minor detail - besides they were never cashed
osl was recruited in saudi arabia for the jihad in afghanistan against the russians by the cia
like saddam he was and remains a faithful employee on the payroll of the cia and unlike the turds on wall street he at least did some work for his 30 sheckels
ps. well we all know saddam is in retirement at this time
and, notwithstanding the fake obl tapes that surface whenever they are needed by the cia, no one has seen him since 2001 - so we can assume he has been dead since then
anyways, try to get your facts straight, i mean now that you are "thinking"
cheers, b
So I take it that the clandestinely filmed tape filmed by a Saudi agent of bin Laden boasting about his roll in the attacks to the crippled Saudi sheik that Bush released to the public in December of 2001 is a forgery as well?
By releasing the tape Bush exposed a flaw in bin Laden’s security that could have been used to bring bin Laden to justice.
hey mad your on a roll
wrong every time
the tape you allude to is not even bin laden - whoever it is has a nose twice as long as bin laden and weighs about 100 more
i guess you haven't actually seen it have you
you can find it on you tube
cheers, b
Anything with a nose twice as long as bin Laden would also have one or two humps on its back and be able to go a long way between stops for water.
Disclaimer -- My good refers to a previous statement not the camel joke.
Updated to conform with political correctness guidelines.
Anything with a nose twice as long as bin Laden would also have one or two humps on its back and be able to go a long way between stops for water and sell cigarettes to teenagers.
ok mad that was funny
cheers, b
There's a lot of weird shit about 9-11, but I think it mainly comes down to the odd right-winger with authority here and there in the CIA and FBI who understood that an attack by Arabs on American soil would mobilize public opinion in a way beneficial for regressives interests. Clearly it's either this or there were quite a few incompetents in positions of authority in our intelligence agencies.
Sioux Rose
MADHOOSIER: I fully agree with your first 2 paragraphs, but depart dramatically from the conclusions of the latter two. Following the logic of the first 2, you might consider entertaining the notion that the need was genuine and the source of an earlier CIA facilitated knowing collaboration.
We’re are going the have to disagree on the last points you make, having said that, your comments are some of the most insightful I read on the internet.
Sioux Rose
MADHOOSIER: You are a gentleman. I am not in the forum to demand consensus, but to learn from others and hopefully impart insights. I appreciate your good manners. Progressives should be gracious in the art of agreeing to sometimes disagree. What a boring planet this would be if we all opted to be authoritarian clones, equivalents of those symmetrical Mr. Smiths from "The Matrix."
DaveBronstein, you are making an extremely important and correct point.
I tried to say the same thing in my post below, albeit in much terser terms. Your expansion was necessary.
In a sense, Green's intervention unwittingly perpetuates the nonsense song played to this county's citizenry for decades about the cozy relationship between democracy and capitalism. Capitalism is a vampire, as Karl Marx says and shows in the first volume of "Capital", and it sucks not only the blood of its domestic workers, but that of any nation the resources of which it needs for its incessant growth and deployment.
Don't think it is an accident that vampirism became such an obsession in literature since Bram Stoker's "Dracula" launched the theme, and, even more so, in the movies of the capitalist world. Literary and cinematic vampirism is a projection in the imaginary realm of what is always already taking place under capitalism, either in its places of work (actually, wage labor) or through its battlefields.
In fact, I feel that an even broader category than that of capitalism is needed in this discussion, namely, that of productivism or industrialism, both in order to neutralize the ideological talk about the capitalism-democracy duo, and in order to accomodate the fact that capitalism can become state capitalism. Unfortunately, though, I don't have time to expand upon this now.
Abendland ------- Broadening discussion, good. My view is that more democracy there is more benign capitalism becomes. I think it follows into the international sphere also in that very few people actually want to go to another country to kill and be killed. When the press is free, I think even policies like globalization can be defeated. The thing is democracy is only benign if humankind can be benign. Can ANY system work if humankind is not benign?
Sioux Rose
ABENDLAND: Interesting segue into vampirism. Funny (or should I say synchronistically) I used this metaphor in a response to an earlier thread. Thanks for elaborating.
Dave --------- I agree predatory capitalism needs to end. Yet I do believe capitalism as a vehicle to create wealth can be well tempered with socialism as a means to distribute wealth. Are not the majority of nations capitalistic? Only a few are occupying other countries. Yes more than a handful are waging economic war through globalization but no matter what the economic system, nations have always preyed on the weaker nations. Actually your agruement strongly indicates that the problem is more cultural than economic because of the repeat offenders while others with the same economic systems are more benign. And it is easy to find modern nations that were not capitalist but were extremely aggressive and warring. If nations could move to the light capitalism can be made just.
As Lenin pointed out, Imperialism is just another stage in the development of capitalism. Fortunately, according to him, it is the Final Stage. :-)
-----------------------------------------
Remember the butchery in Gaza by the IDF.
Did Lenin also point out that the only way true Marxism can (at least has ever) be implemented is via authoritarian police states like the one he created?
Allende, the assassinated Argentinian president, was an elected Marxist, overthrown by an authoritarian police state.
Chile-not Argentina
you're right - my mistake.
Ever read Marx, Adhoc?
What's true Marxism?