Voting the Fate of the Nation
Will Economic Meltdown, Race, or Regional Loyalty Be the Trump Card in Election 2008?
In his acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention, Barack Obama called the forthcoming presidential election a "defining moment" in this country's history. It is conceivable that he is right. There are precedents in American history for an election inaugurating a period of reform and political realignment.
Such a development, however, is extremely rare and surrounded by contingencies normally beyond the control of the advocates of reform. So let me speculate about whether the 2008 election might set in motion a political reconfiguration -- and even a political renaissance -- in the United States, restoring a modicum of democracy to the country's political system, while ending our march toward imperialism, perpetual warfare, and bankruptcy that began with the Cold War.
The political blunders, serious mistakes, and governmental failures of the last eight years so discredited the administration of George W. Bush -- his average approval rating has fallen to 27% and some polls now show him dipping into the low twenties -- that his name was barely mentioned in the major speeches at the Republican convention. Even John McCain has chosen to run under the banner of "maverick" as a candidate of "change," despite the fact that his own party's misgoverning has elicited those demands for change.
Bringing the opposition party to power, however, is not in itself likely to restore the American republic to good working order. It is almost inconceivable that any president could stand up to the overwhelming pressures of the military-industrial complex, as well as the extra-constitutional powers of the 16 intelligence agencies that make up the U.S. Intelligence Community, and the entrenched interests they represent. The subversive influence of the imperial presidency (and vice presidency), the vast expansion of official secrecy and of the police and spying powers of the state, the institution of a second Defense Department in the form of the Department of Homeland Security, and the irrational commitments of American imperialism (761 active military bases in 151 foreign countries as of 2008) will not easily be rolled back by the normal workings of the political system.
For even a possibility of that occurring, the vote in November would have to result in a "realigning election," of which there have been only two during the past century -- the election of Franklin Roosevelt in 1932 and of Richard Nixon in 1968. Until 1932, the Republicans had controlled the presidency for 56 of the previous 72 years, beginning with Abraham Lincoln's election in 1860. After 1932, the Democrats occupied the White House for 28 of the next 36 years.
The 1968 election saw the withdrawal of the candidacy of President Lyndon Johnson under the pressure of the Vietnam War, the defeat of his vice president, Hubert Humphrey, not to mention the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King. That election, based on Nixon's so-called southern strategy, led to a new political alignment nationally, favoring the Republicans. The essence of that realignment lay in the running of Republican racists for office in the old Confederate states where the Democrats had long been the party of choice. Before 1968, the Democrats had also been the majority party nationally, winning seven of the previous nine presidential elections. The Republicans won seven of the next ten between 1968 and 2004.
Of these two realigning elections, the Roosevelt election is certainly the more important for our moment, ushering in as it did one of the few truly democratic periods in American political history. In his new book, Democracy Incorporated, Princeton political theorist Sheldon Wolin suggests the following: "Democracy is about the conditions that make it possible for ordinary people to better their lives by becoming political beings and by making power responsive to their hopes and needs."
However, the founders of this country and virtually all subsequent political leaders have been hostile to democracy in this sense. They favored checks and balances, republicanism, and rule by elites rather than rule by the common man or woman. Wolin writes, "The American political system was not born a democracy, but born with a bias against democracy. It was constructed by those who were either skeptical about democracy or hostile to it. Democratic advance proved to be slow, uphill, forever incomplete.
"The republic existed for three-quarters of a century before formal slavery was ended; another hundred years before black Americans were assured of their voting rights. Only in the twentieth century were women guaranteed the vote and trade unions the right to bargain collectively. In none of these instances has victory been complete: women still lack full equality, racism persists, and the destruction of the remnants of trade unions remains a goal of corporate strategies. Far from being innate, democracy in America has gone against the grain, against the very forms by which the political and economic power of the country has been and continues to be ordered."
Franklin Roosevelt's New Deal introduced a brief period of approximate democracy. This ended with the U.S. entry into World War II, when the New Deal was replaced by a wartime economy based on munitions manufacture and the support of weapons producers. This development had a powerful effect on the American political psyche, since only war production ultimately overcame the conditions of the Great Depression and restored full employment. Ever since that time, the United States has experimented with maintaining a military economy and a civilian economy simultaneously. Over time, this has had the effect of misallocating vital resources away from investment and consumption, while sapping the country's international competitiveness.
Socioeconomic conditions in 2008 bear a certain resemblance to those of 1932, making a realigning election conceivable. Unemployment in 1932 was a record 33%. In the fall of 2008, the rate is a much lower 6.1%, but other severe economic pressures abound. These include massive mortgage foreclosures, bank and investment house failures, rapid inflation in the prices of food and fuel, the failure of the health care system to deliver service to all citizens, a growing global-warming environmental catastrophe due to the over-consumption of fossil fuels, continuing costly military interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, with more on the horizon due to foreign policy failures (in Georgia, Ukraine, Palestine, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, and elsewhere), and record-setting budgetary and trade deficits.
The question is: Can the electorate be mobilized, as in 1932, and will this indeed lead to a realigning election? The answer to neither question is an unambiguous yes.
The Race Factor
Even to contemplate that happening, of course, the Democratic Party first has to win the election -- and in smashing style -- and it faces two formidable obstacles to doing so: race and regionalism.
Although large numbers of white Democrats and independents have told pollsters that the race of a candidate is not a factor in how they will decide their vote, there is ample evidence that they are not telling the truth -- either to pollsters or, in many cases perhaps no less importantly, to themselves. Andrew Hacker, a political scientist at Queen's College, New York, has written strikingly on this subject, starting with the phenomenon known as the "Bradley Effect."
The term refers to Tom Bradley, a former black mayor of Los Angeles, who lost his 1982 bid to become governor of California, even though every poll in the state showed him leading his white opponent by substantial margins. Similar results appeared in 1989, when David Dinkins ran for mayor of New York City and Douglas Wilder sought election as governor of Virginia. Dinkins was ahead by 18 percentage points, but won by only two, and Wilder was leading by nine points, but squeaked through by only half a percent. Numerous other examples lead Hacker to offer this advice to Obama campaign offices: always subtract 7% from favorable poll results. That's the potential Bradley effect.
Meanwhile, the Karl Rove-trained Republican Party has been hard at work disenfranchising black voters. Although we are finally beyond property qualifications, written tests, and the poll tax, there are many new gimmicks. These include laws requiring voters to present official identity cards that include a photo, which, for all practical purposes, means either a driver's license or a passport. Many states drop men and women from the voting rolls who have been convicted of a felony but have fully completed their sentences, or require elaborate procedures for those who have been in prison -- where, Hacker points out, black men and women outnumber whites by nearly six to one -- to be reinstated. There are many other ways of disqualifying black voters, not the least of which is imprisonment itself. After all, the United States imprisons a greater proportion of its population than any other country on Earth, a burden that falls disproportionately on African Americans. Such obstacles can be overcome but they require heroic organizational efforts.
The Regional Factor
Regionalism is the other obvious obstacle standing in the way of attempts to mobilize the electorate on a national basis for a turning-point election. In their book, Divided America: The Ferocious Power Struggle in American Politics, the political scientists Earl and Merle Black argue that the U.S. electorate is hopelessly split. This division, which has become more entrenched with each passing year, is fundamentally ideological, but it is also rooted in ethnicity and manifests itself in an intense and never-ending partisanship. "In modern American politics," they write, "a Republican Party dominated by white Protestants faces a Democratic Party in which minorities plus non-Christian whites far outnumber white Protestants."
Another difference on the rise involves gender imbalance. In the 1950s, the Democratic Party, then by far the larger of the two parties, was evenly balanced between women and men. Fifty years later, a smaller but still potent Democratic Party contained far more women than men (60% to 40%). "In contrast, the Republican Party has shifted from an institution with more women than men in the 1950s (55% to 45%) to one in which men and women were as evenly balanced in 2004 as Democrats were in the 1950s."
Now, add in regionalism, specifically the old American antagonism between the two sides in the Civil War. That once meant southern Democrats versus northern Republicans. By the twenty-first century, however, that binary division had given way to something more complex -- "a new American regionalism, a pattern of conflict in which Democrats and Republicans each possess two regional strongholds and in which the Midwest, as the swing region, holds the balance of power in presidential elections."
The five regions Earl and Merle Black identify -- each becoming more partisan and less characteristic of the nation as a whole -- are the Northeast, South, Midwest, Mountains/Plains, and Pacific Coast. The Northeast, although declining slightly in population, has become unambiguously liberal Democratic. It is composed of New England (Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont), the Middle Atlantic states (Delaware, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania), and the District of Columbia. It is the primary Democratic stronghold.
The South is today a Republican stronghold made up of the eleven former Confederate states (Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia). A second Republican stronghold, displaying an intense and growing partisanship, is the Mountains/Plains region, composed of the 13 states of Arizona, Colorado, Idaho, Kansas, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Utah, and Wyoming.
A second Democratic stronghold is the Pacific Coast, which includes the nation's most populous state, California, joined by Alaska, Hawaii, Oregon, and Washington. The Midwest, where national elections are won or lost by the party able to hold onto, and mobilize, its strongholds, is composed of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Ohio, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. The two most important swing states in the nation are Florida (27 electoral votes) and Ohio (20 electoral votes), which the Democrats narrowly lost, generally under contested circumstances, in both 2000 and 2004.
These five regions are today entrenched in the nation's psyche. Normally, they ensure very narrow victories by one party or another in national elections. There is no way to get around them, barring a clear and unmistakable performance failure by one of the parties -- as happened to the Republicans during the Great Depression and may be happening again.
Why This Might Still Be a Turning-Point Election
Beyond these negatives, in 2008 there have been a number of developments that speak to the possibility of a turning-point election. First, the weakness (and age) of the Republican candidate may perhaps indicate that the Party itself is truly at the end of a forty-year cycle of power. Second, of course, is the meltdown, even possibly implosion, of the U.S. economy on the Republican watch (specifically, on that of George W. Bush, the least popular President in memory, as measured by recent opinion polls). This has put states in the Midwest and elsewhere that Bush took in 2000 and 2004 into play.
Third, there has been a noticeable trend in shifting party affiliations in which the Democrats are gaining membership as the Republicans are losing it, especially in key battleground states like Pennsylvania where, in 2008 alone, 474,000 new names have gone on the Democratic rolls, according to the Washington Post, even as the Republicans have lost 38,000. Overall, since 2006, the Democrats have gained at least two million new members, while the Republicans have lost 344,000. According to the Gallup organization, self-identified Democrats outnumbered self-identified Republicans by a 37% to 28% margin this June, a gap which may only be widening.
Fourth, there is the possibility of a flood of new, especially young, first-time voters, who either screen calls or live on cell phones, not landlines, and so are being under-measured by pollsters, as black voters may also be in this election. (However, when it comes to the young vote, which has been ballyhooed in a number of recent elections without turning out to be significant on Election Day, we must be cautious.) And fifth, an influx of new Democratic voters in states like Virginia, Colorado, and New Mexico threatens, in this election at least, to dent somewhat the normal regional loyalty patterns described by Earl and Merle Black.
Above all, two main issues will determine whether or not the November election will be a realigning one. Republican Party failures in managing the economy, in involving the country in catastrophic wars of choice, and in ignoring such paramount issues as global warming all dictate a Democratic victory. Militating against that outcome is racist hostility, conscious or otherwise, toward the Democratic Party's candidate as well as deep-seated regional loyalties. While the crisis caused by the performance failures of the incumbent party seems to guarantee a realigning election favoring the Democrats, it is simply impossible to determine the degree to which race and regionalism may sway voters. The fate of the nation hangs in the balance.
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211 Comments so far
Show Allsnydly
DR CHALMERS, I SEE THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM NOT AS A STRAIGHT LINE, BUT A BROKEN CIRCLE WITH THE TWO ENDS CLOSER TO EACH OTHER THAN TO THE MIDDLE. THE LEFT, RIGHT AND IND PERSUASIONS HAVE MORE IN COMMON THAN THEY HAVE AT ODDS, AND THEY TOGETHER WOULD GARNER 60% OF THE VOTE, IF NOT MORE...
YOUR THOUGHTS?
Here's a preview of what we'll be seeing within the next month:
http://www.theonion.com/content/video/diebold_accidentally_leaks?utm%20%20_source=embedded_video
Don't get fooled again.
Thanks Norman. Hilarious!
I wondered why Obama jumped on the bailout package for Wall Street so quickly when he could have pretended to be for the little guy and put up a bigger fight. Then I heard many of his and McCain's top 10 contributors are Wall Street firms. Okay, now it makes sense.
The brilliant Dr. Johnson starts his analysis with a statement made by Barack Obama and proceeds then to test the idea without regard to the candidate himself, save references to the Bradley effect and race. He achieves an uncommon clarity with this approach.
There is a current in the liberal/progressive intelligensia to express disappointment with Obama's unwillingness to be a failed candidate or a dead hero for the cause. How could he vote for the FISA bill, how could he cave on offshore drilling, how could he...? Among other things, these folks are out of touch with their own racism.
Early on in this process Obama was ambushed in a nationally televised debate by GE's mouthpiece, the late Tim Russert, and challenged to reject and condemn Minister Louis Farrakhan. Minister Farrakhan had dared to say about Barak Obama, “This young man is the hope of the entire world that America will change and be made better.” Obama knew that the demand that the intellectual author and leader of the redemptive Million Man March be denounced came from men who would see him dead before they would see him president but “this young man” went to his knees to remain a viable candidate. And Louis Farrakhan understood completely!
The dying Republican party's apparatus then took it to another level. Rush Limbaugh, one of the most vicious and dangerous racists in human history, ranted that Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright, Jr., the minister who married Obama and his wife Michelle, the iconic leader of the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago since 1972, is a “race-baiter and a hatemonger.” A national Limbaugh-led mob howled that this holy man must be denounced and renounced, and again for the sake of his chances to be president, Obama knelt before them again and called Rev. Wright’s profound truth telling “inflammatory and appalling.” And save a brief bout of ego, Rev. Wright understood completely.
Have no illusions about Barak Obama. He is auditioning with the ruling class in this campaign for president, and judging by pats on the head from Rupert Murdoch and Warren Buffet, he is giving a credible performance. The candidate is desperately trying to convince them an Obama Administration would be business as usual, his empty rhetoric about change notwithstanding.
What everyone in this country needs to realize though is that Louis Farrakhan, Jerimiah Wright, the African-American population of the United States, and the people of a world where racism holds less sway are quietly watching. They have consciously and voluntarily muted their support for Obama. They are going to give white America every opportunity to do the right thing here. They would like a peaceful transformation of this country.
In debate analysis on CNN last night James Carville came closest to capturing the dynamics at work. He said if Barack Obama goes into this election with a clear five-point lead in the polls and loses... Carville was unable to find the words to finish the thought in terms that would be palatable to his audience.
This goes beyond Obama the candidate for president. Something the ruling class can never permit must happen before Obama, a Black man, can be elected. Obama will win 95-plus% of a record turnout of Black voters. But he will win the presidency only with a substantial number of white working class votes. This would constitute a level of working class unity like we have never witnessed in US electoral history.
Such unity would shake this county’s ever constricting capitalist bourgeois democracy to its foundation. One of the main engines of that capitalist economy is racism. For the sake of profits racial divisions and the super exploitation of workers of color must be kept intact—at all costs.
The reason that chattel slavery came into existence in the semi-feudal agrarian US economy of the time was that it was very profitable for the masters of that economy.
The reason that racism is so pervasive in the United States today with its developed industrial, albeit collapsing, capitalist economy is that it is very profitable for the masters of that economy.
It took the bloodiest war in US history and hundreds of thousands of white workers willing to fight to the death to end chattel slavery. No election and no candidate for office will end racism in this country. As long as capitalism exists elections will only produce racist results.
The least important thing about Barak Obama is his empty rhetoric about change. The ruling class chuckles over such nonsense. What they are stricken over is the possibility that working-class whites might make their first halting steps toward an effective political relationship with their brothers and sisters of color. They know their history. They know that was the dynamic that brought down the slave economy. They know that would be the beginning of the end for them.
I don´t agree with you.
The working class, which is composed of all human elements, does not see Obama as a "saviour in the wilderness".
They see him as another corporate shill on the make for himself.
The working class, as you will soon see, is not going to rush to the polls to elect yet another traitor to the ethics and precepts that most working class adhere to and have yet to experience in their own society.
I certainly don´t recall any mass demonstrations of support for Obama by "Blacks" or any other disenfranchised minority, such as working class "Whites" as you put it.
There are no blacks or whites. The concept is in and of itself completely ridiculous and reflects a lack of understanding concerning the biological impact of diversified societies around the entire planet. There are, thank the Almighty, only humans.
Nice try, but this piece of illogic doesn´t match the reality of our times. Again, that is merely my opinion, as valuable as yours.
Obama is just another prostituted political hack for hire.
I agree with B, "Obama is just another prostituted political hack for hire."
Chalmer says "this election may be a defining moment in this country's history", and goes on to talk about changing from Republican leadership to Democratic leadership. This would not be a 'defining moment' but just a continuation of the corporate control of our government. The bailout of the big boy bankers makes this crystal clear. The people of this nation opposed giving $840 billion as the first installment of the billions to follow from the working people of this nation into the pockets of the extremely wealthy.
Our 'leaders' who gave the billion away with no restrictions knew that the people opposed it. They voted against the will of the people in favor of their paymasters. There was no democracy involved. That day marked the end of our democracy and the beginning of our lives under fascist feudalism.
A real defining moment in our history would be if we the people throw off the corporate shackles and refuse to continue under the corrupt 'major' political parties. We should not change from one to the other of the prostituted political hacks to the other. A pox on both the Dems and Repubs. Vote independent. Vote for Nader. Now that would be a real defining moment in our history as we attempt to bring democracy to the United States of America.
I'm really starting to feel that Draft coming.... Palin & Biden both keep yaking about their sons going to Iraq?
I tell ya, there is a draft coming.
LEAKED! Questions that got BANNED from the town hall "debate"...
"Senator McCain, regarding our hostages in Guantanamo, in your opinion does their experience being tortured by us for the last five years qualify them to be presidents of their respective countries?"
More banned questions at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuQDTjx-ygM
I like Mr. Johnson's writings normally, but there are some really bad parts to the end of this article.
One is the assumption that all young voters vote Democrat. There's a stereotype that everyone young is a liberal on a college campus last time. Mr. Johnson does acknowledge that we've heard this before, and that it has been BS before. What he doens't point out is why. The why is because the right and the Christians can register their own youth to vote. Drop the stereotype that all 'young voters' are Democrats as the BS that it is.
Party registration is mainly about which primary people want to vote in. Most people don't 'belong' to parties any more. But how they register affects which primary they can vote in. If there is a strong uptick in Democratic registered voters, its because the Obama-Clinton primary was drawing the voters into that race and people wanted to vote in that race. It indicates very little about party loyalty these days.
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
.
UNbelievable – but GOOD!!!
Last week I called my wonderful, down-to-earth Aunt who lives in a very conservative rural area of Western Pennsylvania for some medical advice.
Our conversation flowed from health care costs to politics.
Never discussing politics with me before, she ventured “I’m afraid.”
“Of what?” I asked.
.
“Well, that Obama might be the Anti-Christ” she stated.
.
I replied that dozens of persons including JFK, the Beatles, Bob Dylan, had all been accused of being the Anti-Christ.
“Yes, I know, but I’m still really concerned Obama is the Anti-Christ” she repeated.
“But I think I’m going to vote for Obama anyway.”
.
From your aunts account she sounds like she is from central Pennsylvania, not western Pennsylvania. Culturally, westerm pennsylvania only starts at the allegheny front - where the coal fields begin. Most of the the union or formerly union catholic/orthodox slavic people who live there are democrats (albeit of the blue dog variety) and would not talk like that.
...But then again, the two or three tiers of far-western counties are pretty right-wing and fundamentalist - and as racist as the deep south 50 years ago.
USAn,
You are on the money - exactly where the coal fields begin; the extreme left edge of central Pennsylvania. I would be very surprised if her fear was based on race - more on religious beliefs.
.
From the article: "Of these two realigning elections, the Roosevelt election is certainly the more important for our moment, ushering in as it did one of the few truly democratic periods in American political history."
You're kidding, right? It wasn't until more than 30 years after Roosevelt's election in 1932 that people of color gained the right to vote and legal segregation was ended. It's true that for a brief period in the '30s, because the extraordinary economic situation unleashed a torrent of popular anger and protest, the government and corporations had an enormous amount of pressure placed on them and had to respond with better wages and working conditions and new government policies. But there's a difference between saying the situation made those in power briefly more responsive to the demands of the relatively powerless and saying that there was a "truly democratic period." There has never been any such thing in the U.S.
"There has never been any such thing in the U.S"
And yet the US stands as example to many of being the most successful democracy in history, having made the principles of individual equality and individual rights the central pillar of a just and prosperous society. No, it hasn't been perfect, and yes there is still lots of room for improvement, but what would you propose instead?
The history of the US is a history of the pursuit of the democratic idea, of the dream and future hope for a diverse yet egalitarian and harmonious society. To that end, Roosevelt certainly furthered the cause, and created a conducive climate for equitable democratic progress. That becomes especially notable when contrasted to the inequitable social climate and lack of balance Bush's policies have created.
We all (including the author) need to speak clearly and precisely to the realization that democracy is a pursuit, not an accomplishment. Given human nature and an ever evolving society, democracy can never be finished, only practiced.
cosmobilly - "Given human nature and an ever evolving society, democracy can never be finished, only practiced."
I totally agree with you, but want to add - that until we can come together as a nation of peoples with widely differing thoughts, beliefs, and ideals, and be able to shelve our individual thoughts, beliefs and ideals for the moment, in order to listen to and actually hear one another, we'll continue to be a nation divided, and be held hostage to the rule of one or the other of the two dominant parties forever.
There is no balance in that. It's basically winner take all. The last eight years have been a great example of this, with the conservative congress rubber stamping the president, and shutting out the liberals so completely. And according to the conservatives, that's exactly what the liberals have always done to them.
I see a true democracy as one that incorporates the entire population, not just the one small segment represented by the ruling party.
Obama - don't screw it up. McCain needs to be defeated, but I worry that he cannot be defeated by an Obama who is just McCain-lite. For a back-porch discussion of Democrat back-stabbing and betrayal, go to http://www.youtube.com/Eskit99 and click on "Obama - Don't Screw It Up!". (Or click on "McCain Music Video" for a musical put-down of McCain.)
This is what I love about Democrats. They say "McCain must be defeated". There's the implication that somehow Obama is better. But there's not a word to back any of this up. Its all just hot air.
You never see Obama supporters debating facts or policy any more. Of course, that's because Obama's policies are so right-wing that they are pretty much identical to McCain's. Which leads to my puzzlement about why McCain "must" be defeated by Obama.
Why? Especially in the areas that Mr. Johnson writes about, there is no difference between the two. Both support a world-wide American empire. Both support a police state here in the US. They only differ on a few tactical details. Essentially, Obama claims he can obtain these goals by being a better manager of the evil empire than McCain. Is this why McCain must be defeated? So we can be a more efficient evil empire?
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
As I think a bit more about this, I'm struck by the way the Democrats practice the politics of fear and hatred. There is really no difference between them and the Republicans on this, other than the fear and hatred is directed at slightly different targets.
There has been a big smear campaign against McCain. This drums up an atmosphere of hatred against him. By the Democrats, McCain has been villified.
For me personally, I tend to tune that crap out. When I hear it or see it, I don't trust it or believe it any more than I believe the Republicans with their campaigns of hatred and fear against muslims or Obama. To me,its all crap. Just a different version of Orwell's two minute hate, but the Democratic version aimed at McCain.
But it leads to this sort of reasoning. McCain must be defeated. By this time, most of the Democrats drinking the two-minute-hate koolaid couldn't even tell you why. Its just a mantra they chant. A very sick mantra of hatred that's been drummed into their heads. They type it out by reflex, without even thinking about it. McCain is horrible. McCain must be defeated.
It of course falls apart on close examination. Or when watching in the real world where Obama and McCain take exactly the same positions on the $800 billion wall street theft last week.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
You are not tuning it out - your focusing on it.
And you are confusing two separate issues. First are party platforms, which are indeed more alike than different. The second is smear campaign tactics, and nobody uses innuendo, fear and hatred more than republicans - hell man, the whole southern strategy is an exercise in racism. Just who is more likely to use fear and hatred, the good ole white boy and fundamentalist party, or the party of women, minorities and the downtrodden?
For your third issue, yes the bailout is a scam and yes, the corporate party supported it.
Obsessing and nitpicking over political campaign rhetoric is to reduce yourself to the same level as those who put it forth in the first place.
"B October 8th, 2008 3:33 am
...
I despise such terms as "3rd party" because it is misleading. We don´t need a "3rd party". The issue is in no way about such.
We desperately must have a legitimate representative body before worse events unfold than should be imagined."
True and not true; while it's true that the U.S. needs "a legitimate representative body", it's false that this must happen "before worse events unfold". We don't need that sort of mild fearmongering in order to clearly and easily realize that we absolutely need "a legitimate representative body". After all, the whole of humanity needs "legitimate representative bodies", and Nature also needs for us to all have this order of human, political governance or govt of truly legitimate and, therefore, representative kind, [holistically] too. We need the holistic approach in order to avoid being partial, allowing individual and/or group biases corrupt govt once [again].
"3rd party" may possibly not be a wholly accurate reference, but I don't see anything really wrong with it when we all know that it's only to distinguish from the leading political parties, both of which are damn corrupt ... like [as hell], that is, hellishly liars, gangsters, terrorists, traitors, and ... etcetera. I'd much prefer to be called a "3rd party" or member of one, than I'd ever desire to be like the Dem. and Repub. Parties and most of their members or supporters have demonstrated of themselves and how they treat The People's govt, and not just the bureaucratic part, but in whole; in concept, and all other senses. SHIT, people get arrested, convicted and can serve prison sentences for lesser acts (or non-acts) of criminal negligence, and that's the best that can be said of supporters of hellishly corrupt, etcetera, Dem. and Repub. Parties (DP and RP).
After all, the voters of both parties continuously never learn, they continuously re-elect and elect candidates who are provably [unfit], including extremely, for serving in any public offices, much less (or worse) when considering the highest of the offices in the country.
As for "3rd party", it's nothing compared to mistakenly or grotesquely referring to the USA as a [nation], f.e. The people who've supported candidates not running for either the DP or RP haven't had any problems with "3rd party"-labeling; their only problem being the rest of the country's voters remaining hellishly, maccabrely, ... incredibly lemming, ongoingly electing and re-electing criminals, charlatans, ... and traitors to the public offices of the USA.
And I came across an interesting compilation of videos, a 25-part series, yesterday.
"How the 9/11 Commission Got it Wrong
an Introduction to 9/11 Skepticism on YouTube",
posted by Reprehensor, Feb 23 2008,
http://911blogger.com/node/14030
That, a 25-part video series, is based on the July 22 2005 hearings of (I believe) the U.S. House on the results of the 9-11 Commission, and with an apparently strong presentation by then Rep. Cynthia McKinney. Invited speakers include Lorie Van Auken of the famous 'Jersey Girls', other members of 9-11 Families, former (and perhaps some currently active) U.S. govt intelligence people, like former CIA analysts Mel Goodman, Bill Christison and Ray McGovern, f.e., but also former CIA operatives, and plenty of others who qualified to speak at this hearing. It's a hearing that's evidently been treated very much like "msm" "news" media (and U.S. govt) did with Winter Soldiers in March 2008, those very important four days, those four days of topmost important testimonies, and which was treated by the U.S. or simply West's "news" media (and govts) as a subject to be ignored, that's not newsworthy, and to, as yellow journalism does, help to keep readers believing LIES and ignorant of topmost important testimonies. Instead, the "news" media and govts preferentially chose to focus reporting on the US-backed or -conjured (-created) violence in Tibet and which ... interestingly ... occurred over the very same days of March as the days of WS testimonies. That is, both, the 2005 House hearing and WS testimonies in March 2008, were extremely underreported and evidently much of this was outright censorship, from which we derive the reality of the involved and very deliberate [treason] or treasons.
I haven't viewed the videos yet, for am only on dial-up connection; but am looking forward to viewing all 25.
Fair enough, Mike Corbeil. I don´t claim others should adhere to my aversion to the term "3rd party", I just personally think that it sounds as though a "3 party system" is somehow the answer, which it clearly is not.
I do appreciate what Samson said farther on down the line, however:
An Opposition Party. That has a positive, constructive impact on my senses, but then that is merely my personal opinion and my perogative as a global citizen.
As for the 911 staged assault, it is surely understood by all that the current regime, much like their criminal actions regarding the innocent peoples of Mesopotamia, is not demonstrating it´s ability to safeguard either the public or the precepts of legitimate representation.
One of the very first items on the public agenda, once a legitimate representative body is installed, will be the opening and public disclosure of ALL information concerning that event. Not to mention the immediate capture, trial and serving of impartial justice upon the guilty, whomever they may be.
For the sake of global security.
OK, but how do you plan to get your 'legitimate representative body'.
I see two choices. Change within the political system. Or some sort of rebellion outside the political system.
To me, change within the political system, if it can be done, is much less horrible than all that comes from rebellion. Inside the political system, we have two 'parties' which represent the same power base and which offer the same policies. They also both collude with each other to block any other 'parties' from joining the system in a meaningful way. They both certainly collude to block any democratic changes like proportional representation.
So, if you want to have change inside the political system, some other party is needed. Its called a 'third party' in reference to the two parties that control everything today. Although, my big complaint with what the 'opposition' is doing is that we really aught to call it the '7th party' or the '8th party' because our opposition is so fragmented into separate, tiny and useless little groups.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
Thanks for taking the time to comment, Samson.
To begin with, I do not see constructive change taking place at all without both sets of operations, working in tandem.
The "rebellion" has long since begun, albeit it is by it´s very nature and the methods utilized by the enemy of human brotherhood, fractured, infiltrated, and entirely disjointed. At this point in time.
The 3rd party, otherwise perhaps known as the Opposition Party to some, is already here and has been for sometime now, albeit it has yet to congeal itself into a workable and acceptable household profile, partly for some of the reasons so well stated with regard to MSM s.o.p., but also partly due to the fact that the perceived (or recognizable if you will) profiles within that ... party ... are each working separate tactics based on their own specific primary issues, all of which certainly have a significant role to play in the formulation of an acceptable household...platform, and none of which alone are able to electrify the critical mass of the public.
The issue here is to my mind that coordination of the various progressive venues must take place, as in yesterday, in order to develop ourselves into a complete entity that can not only stand up to the methods of the enemy, but more importantly take the initiative with regard to engaging and galvanizing...the critical mass of citizens necessary to produce a legitimate representative body. On many levels, I might add.
OK, all of you are right when it comes to the fact that such issues, events, and candidates will not be given access to MSM other than in their own interests, ie, negative portrayals and deliberate character assassinations.
So what if all those who adhere to the ... 3rd party, (sigh) request such individuals as Kucinich, McKinney, Nader, and others all of you will know much better than I at this stage, to form a "party platform" that combines their strengths and negates their weaknesses? Ask that they produce, together, a "shadow cabinet" including a complete platform, and present the steps and measures that representative would take with regard to all of the salient issues?
The troops are spread too thin and have too many separate and fragmented targets to be anything like effective, is my drift.
None of us in any progressive venue can make it stick, no matter how many demonstrate in downtown Seattle or New York without utilizing the full arsenal at our disposal...we have clear proof of this fact in hand since time immemorial it would seem...
Is anyone at all familiar with offshore (as in intl waters) media broadcasting?
I think we need to get out of the box and forget about MSM. Feed it every bit of fake, bogus claptrap as required, whenever required...other than that avoid it like the plague on freedom of the press that it truly is.
My basic reasoning now is that we must start at some point, and coordination of the activities and platforms of ALL progressive groups and their perceived leadership is essential in order to take those required next steps.
We can talk about the funding later if you like, after you or others might care to respond. Thanks again, I appreciate your candor and insights.
Correct, inside the system or outside the system. The only way that inside the system will work is if the left has some recognizable, and to the holders of power, fearful bargaining chip that you _will_ use, not just wave in their faces. The true left doesn't have that. Sure, we can moan and groan all day on CD or other sites with similar views, but mainstream people don't know about these types of sites. Also the mainstream media is trying to convince people, and probably has to many, that to be on the left, to be progressive is to be alone and lunatic. When I lived in Seattle there was a protest, nationwide, before the Iraq war started. (Not the Feb. 15th one, before that in 2002) The news reported that we were an isolated protest. They, of course, had to say something because we were able to block traffic and the people that were stuck behind us wanted to know why. But if all you listened to was the msm, you wouldn't have known that there were protests in other parts of the country, at the same time. To find that out, one had to go to sites like Indymedia. Because those types of sites, just like CD here, don't have a lot of money for advertising and getting their name out there, most people don't know that they exist. But they know about Facebook, or Myspace, or Yahoo! and Google. CD and Indymedia and Alternet have to go begging for money from some of the same people that contribute, but also don't have much money because the corporate media will never let us on the air, let alone pay us to contribute our views. Can you imagine Fox extending an invitation to Amy Goodman or Rachel Maddow or Arriana Huffington to appear on Bill O'Reilly's show? Not going to happen. And as long as they're able to keep reporting that they are impartial, that they are fair... many people will believe it and tune in. Thus they are indoctrinated to believe that the modern left is equivalent to the "godless Communists"! and they don't want to be associated with that. We on CD know that's not true but if we go on other sites and try to explain these things at best we are branded as trolls and there is no useful argument, just endless flame wars. Check out some of the msm sites, Washington Post for example. A lot of bickering but very little substance. This isolation of the left, trying to make us think that we are a small, fringe element, unfortunately works all too well. Another case in point: During the February 15 mass demonstration across the country against the then up and coming Iraq war the news reported that there were scattered protests. In New York, they constantly "undercount" the protesters. For that day, again I was there and I remember, they reported us as being just a couple thousand people. In reality, it was several hundred thousand with some independent news gatherers reporting up to a million. There were A LOT of people, but not just a couple thousand. The msm has succeeded in implanting that it is better to conform to the rest of society's views and that nonconformity is a bad thing, and the corporate media chooses the views that society can have. How do we fight that? How do we get massive numbers of new readers to give CD a look? We can "advertise" on other forums and say there was such and such an article on CD, but many times that's considered spamming and modded out.
You'd think Chalmers Johnson would at least be able to see the forest for the trees. Who can remember the last democratic election in this country? Ask yourself: how did we end up with these two bozos as the choice? Take your pick, the new face or the same old bloated white face of Fascism. In the end the corporations win either way. And the People, whether it's Marat or Joe Sixpack, can only do what they have been programmed to do: lose and blame somebody else for their loss.
Touché!!!
Been real busy working on the elections in Canada. Wow the closed system as I call it America has. In Canada the candidates are on the chopping block night after night. I have gone to the mic and asked real tough questions that got lots of support by the people there. It make US politics look so controled and so limp.
In Parliament everyone for the Prime miniter to anyone who is elected has to answer question DAILY from the opposition. These are wide open questions that get just wild and are shown on TV for all to see. I wish the US had the same so these so called Democrate could be exposed for what they are.
And somewhere on a Reservation or in a city or town an Indian gave a shrug of the shoulders.
I would be a lot happier if you would remember Crazy Horse.
Surely, Brother, you are aware that no justice can be attained until justice is rendered unto the inhabitants of Turtle Island?
I would have thought that obvious. My bad.
No progressive platform can claim the title without a complete agenda that includes such specifics as recognition of the right to choose native sovereignty/citizenship as desired by every one of The People. Without a comprehensive plan for recompense, unattached aid for the needs as specified by the beneficiaries, and a separate yet entirely equal "nationstate" for those so determined, there can be no end to the horrors that continue to be inflicted upon the innocent in the name of lawless and inhuman greed.
Sometimes I cringe when I see that many of us are all too ready (and rightfully so) to demand that the Israeli extremists give back the Palestinian Arab Semites what is truly rightfully theirs, yet no one seems to remember The Black Hills...this does make me weep at our conditioned indifference to the inalienable equal rights of all...humans, not just "men".
Please don´t shrug. Please help us since we at last are starting to see a groundswell change in attitude among the majority of us, most of whom are merely struggling to survive in an inhuman age, who are just as manipulated and abused of our inalienable rights as free citizens as our hosts of Turtle Island have ever been, although in different, more insidious ways.
The likelihood that the US could collapse into civil war and we could all die of starvation or at the hands of an invading army has sure as fuck got MY attention.
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
Maybe I'm way off base, (at least I hope I am). But, I have a very strong feeling that there isn't going to be an election for us to "exercise our vote". With Presidential Directive 51 in place, the Army brigade for quelling domestic disturbances in place....plus, think about it...do you really think cheney, bush, and all the other psycho neocons are just going to quietly pack up and walk away in January....leave their insane agenda behind...REALLY?! Either some sort of terrorist attack will take place, ("gee whiz, we never saw it coming!"), and/or the economy will worsen even more, and bush will declare marshall law, (they already threatened to over the bail-out vote). This will happen either right before the election, or after the election, before the new president can take office....whoever that might be...and ESPECIALLY if it might be Obama, (even though he isn't exactly free of the grease from the 'machine'.)
Like I said...hope I'm wrong...:o\
Sometimes I think like you about the election. But then I think about recent history that has these Cheney types returning to the "private sector" to rake in the dough---waiting in the wings for the next right-wing batch to get in. I guess we'll see. Maybe they'll steal it again.
drmhed08 October 7th, 2008 11:24 pm
"Maybe I'm way off base, (at least I hope I am). But, I have a very strong feeling that there isn't going to be an election for us to "exercise our vote"."
There will be an election. The corporate money has swung from the Repubs to the Dems this time around and the corporate powers behind the scene are perfectly happy with an Obama presidency. Why wouldn't they be, he helped push through the corporate bailout for them transferring 850 billion from the middle class and the poor to the rich. And what did the AIG execs do after just receiving their 85 billion dollar share of it. Why they went on a 400,000 dollar junket.
Lobo Gris
There is a dark cloud on the horizon, and it has "Adolf" Bush behind it. This is the beginning of the end. Hopefully, the people will rise up and blow this country in the right direction. There is still time.
OPEN THE DEBATES:
Here's what you can do:
Write a letter to the editor about how important it is for Cynthia and Rosa to participate in the debates. See the Talking Points below for ideas. Keep the letter short and focused -- five or six sentences is good. We're aiming for 100 letters sent by Greens to newspapers and news web sites all across the US. Visit the letter-writing page to look up a newspaper and post a letter -- use the provided text as a basis, or write your own:
http://www.democracyinaction.com/dia/organizationsCOM/Greens/pickMedia.jsp?letter_KEY=474
Go viral! Forward links to video clips of the Green ticket widely (http://www.youtube.com/user/RunCynthiaRun).
Recommend and promote video clips and articles with positive coverage of Green candidates by 'Digging' them (http://digg.com/).
Promote the McKinney-Clemente Power to the People campaign on Facebook, Myspace, and blogs. Don't forget to add links to these important web sites:
http://votetruth08.com/
http://www.rosaclemente.com/
http://www.gp.org/
State and local Green Party and other Green campaign sites
Host a Debate-Watching House Party:
http://www.democracyinaction.com/dia/
organizationsCOM/Greens/event/distributedEventSignup.jsp?distributed_event_KEY=179
Contact TV, radio, blog sites, and urge them to cover the campaign. We'll provide a list soon of the top 50 that should be targeted, with their contact information.
Other actions: write an op-ed column or article and submit it to a newspaper or news web site. Post a message on an e-mail bulletin board. Call in to a radio talk show.
Make a donation to the McKinney-Clemente campaign to help the candidates travel around the US for media appearances and campaign events:
http://votetruth08.com/index.php/contribute/donate?task=pre_paypal
Only Nixon could go to China.
Only the Democrats can privatize Social Security.
Only Republicans can bring us fascism.
You fail to see below the surface.
Only Libertarians can bring us fascism.
Maybe we should start selling off our stuff and prepare to move to another country. This one looks like its falling apart. ;-(
Democrats an opposition party?
John F. Butterfield October 7th, 2008 6:24 pm
Democrats an opposition party?
Ya gotta be kiddin, right? Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha
Lobo Gris
To me, the only way this election might a moment of change in America is if Obama turns out to be America's Gorbachov.
Gorbachov (and I'm almost certainly mis-spelling that) was a party hack who used messages of change and openness (Glasnost and peristroika if I remember correctly) to rise to power in the Soviet Union.
Then, when he tried to move slightly in that direction, he ended up opening the flood gates of change that led to the collapse of the Soviet Union. That certainly was not Gorbachov's intentions. It just that he committed himself to that course and then it got way out of his control.
So, could Obama do the same? Could his talk about 'change' lead to some small efforts at change, which might then end up mobilizing and enthusing the American people for real change?
I'm doubtful right now. Mainly because Obama is showing that his talk about 'change' is all hot air and BS. He just had the ideal opportunity to put it to the test with the $800 billion theft of last week ('theft' is a better name than 'bailout'). Obama showed clearly that he has no interest in change. If he did, that would have been the perfect moment, with some 75% of the American people opposing that 'theft'. To win the election easily and in a landslide, all Obama had to do was to commit himself to that sort of change. But he wouldn't.
To me, that's the very best anyone could hope for form Obama. That maybe he might try some small 'changes' that make the people demand more. And eventually he might have the same result as Gorbachov did in the old SU. But, since Obama clearly comes down against 'change' when the opportunity presents itself, it seems doubtful that he'd do this.
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
The only thing that makes this presidential election a "defining moment" in our history is that it will mark the ascendency of oligarchic rule over our country when it slipped into the event horizon of fascism on 9/11.
Take your pick, but the ObamcCain candidacy that most people credulously perceive as representing a "choice" in the November polls is the option between a half crazed fascist and the purer dyed-in-the-wool variety.
How pathetic.
The "Democratic" "Party" has long since demonstrated why it has become the scourge of American democracy. Bipartisan rule and the jack-asses who support it are as much to blame as the Republicans for this predicament.
What chance would the readers of CommonDemocraticPartyDreams.org give for martial law by election day? Or, before the next inauguration?
This really is a response to all of you and the excellent article the professor has written. I am a registered Green, love Cynthia and Kucinich and would like nothing more to see them in office. I think we all agree that we live under one party rule with a faction of the fascist right and your classic everyday old school Republican on the left, as I tell my friends, if Obama gets elected, he will be the 2nd best Republican president we have ever had, but I digress, we have a poorly functioning electoral system coupled with election fraud. Lots of hurdles for Obama to overcome not to mention a Green candidate. I used to think like the majority of you that, regardless, I'm sticking to my principles, and I will vote for Cynthia; however, when Stalin Palin got on the ticket, that did it for me. On the Republican fascist side, we have two very insane people who are willing to push the button without reservation for different reasons - McNasty loves war and wants to be ruler of the earth and Falin would like to bring about the 2nd coming and convert everyone to Christianity.
Whatever Obama's faults and sellout positions, I don't believe he is a rash person, I can't imagine him causing and bringing about WWIII, but I can with the other party in place. As the professor said, if we are mindful and push Obama on issues, we can effect change. If you choose, in a swing state, to vote for Green or another independent candidate, you are putting this country in peril. For me and I hope you too will see that this vote is about life or death, saving the earth or killing it, moving towards peace or more war, moving towards liberty and reclaiming freedoms or moving towards a darker and a more repressed fascist state. Vote Obama for Moving Towards Change.
carpeveritas October 7th, 2008 8:30 pm
"As the professor said, if we are mindful and push Obama on issues, we can effect change."
And just how do you propose to do that? By threatening to re-elect him in four years if he doesn't bow to your will.
Obama has already demonstrated on more than one occasion that he is immune to push. As in the case of the Wall Street bailout. With e-mails, phone calls, and letters running 100 to 1 against the bailout Obama not only voted for it but actively encouraged his Democratic counterparts to do the same.
As for putting the country in peril if one votes Green or independent in a swing state that is hogwash too. Obama is no less militant than McCain. He wants to expand the military and the war in Afghanistan all while still not withdrawing completely from Iraq. From his debate last night Obama "The military option should never be off the table"
Lobo Gris
Zero ... or at least zero chance of anything related to the election. A massive economic collapse might cause it for other reasons.
But, I keep hearing this idea that the Republicans would do this to stay in power. That ignores the fundamental realities of power in this country. The Republicans don't hold power any more than the Democrats do in Congress or will in the White House. The real power is the money behind the scenes that pulls the strings of the public politicians we see on the stage.
And, that real power is perfectly happy with an Obama presidency. That is obvious. There's $450 million plus in Obama's totals for fundraising in this election. That didn't all come from $20 from college kids. A lot of it is big donations from big money and corporate America. And they ain't giving that to someone who they would then block from power with martial law.
By comparision, McCain is running his campaign from public financing. One thing that is very clear is that the big money moved from Republicans to Democrats in this election.
And of course, the Democrats have shown they are completely subservient to the real power anyways. Again, last week's theft of $800 billion and the support that Obama and the Democrats gave to that effort shows this.
So, there is no chance at all of martial law in order to stop the election or to stop Obama taking power. If the Republicans were to try it, the real power behind the scenes would stop them fast. Because such a declaration of martial law would reveal that the illusions of democracy in this country are just that. It would risk causing an uprising from the American people.
Why take that risk when the real power in the country is supporting Obama and the Democrats and is perfectly happy with them taking power? And they certainly aren't under any delusions that Obama would bring any real changes that would help the people at the expense of the ones holding the real power.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
I have a friend who I believe is clearly racist. She claims to be a Democrat, but watches Fox News all the time (and quotes them all the time). She will take ANY smear against Obama and run with it. She is convinced he is a Muslim and is completely concerned about the Reverend Wright thing. John McCain could do just about anything and she would NEVER rail about him like she rails about Obama. I wish she would just vote for McCain and shut up instead of saying she is a Democrat and looking for anything to give her an excuse not to vote for Obama. But I feel the REAL reason she does NOT want to vote for Obama is because he is black. If I ever were to say this to her, she would deny it strongly I am sure.
If it will make you feel better, say it. Ask her what would be wrong if he were a Muslim which he's not?
Ha, ha, if she watches fox news and takes it seriously, while claiming to be a democrat, she's probably a 'closet republican' like Lieberman! As for Obama's race: if there was a fire would you care about the color of the man bringing the water to put it out? The problem is that Obama does not have the 'water.'
That's interesting. What you are saying is that no matter what anyone says, if they don't vote for Obama then they are racist. Even if they deny it. How presumptive of you.
athiest
If you notice, madcow wishes to reassure Common Dreams readers that "I'm only observing a FEW [his caps] comments that seem to be tinged at racism" at 3:40 pm despite the fact that he originally said at his comments at 3:18 pm that "many anti-Obama comments that have that weird racist tinge to them." It would appear that after you called him on his statement is when he decided to back off his claim that those people or, as he wrote, "many anti-Obama comments that have that weird racist tinge to them", which helps to give the impression that anyone who dares to criticize Obama must then be racist.
Thanks Erroll. Notice the retraction below, where I admitted I should have written "few" and not "many". I wish we could all be perfect and never make mistakes like you. Some of us, at least, don't have a problem admitting when we over-state things.
You didn't just overstate, you trivialized millions of voters' sound reasoning for not wanting to vote for Obama.
This reminds me of all of the people (all men come to think of it) who have responded to my complaints about beauty pageants with the classic "You're just jealous", as if I couldn't possibly have a legitimate reason to think pageants are detrimental to women or to our society.
I've voted for plenty of black candidates and would love to see a black President, but not Obama. I wouldn't want to see Marion Berry or Alan Keyes or Jesse Jackson as President either. Now Condi Rice, I could see her as President.
"you trivialized millions of voters' sound reasoning for not wanting to vote for Obama"
Come on! You want to tell me there's no racism in anyone not wanting to vote for Obama.
Are you a woman? Why Condi Rice?
Pretty much. She got very upset and wailed when Hillary lost and has been going out of her way to "defend" Palin. If "atheist" really cared about a better future for women, she'd look at it from the bottom up rather than obsess about top leadership puppet positions.
Thanks for sharing that lynne. I've noticed many anti-Obama comments here that have that weird racist tinge to them. People don't always realize they can be driven by something that they think is abhorrent. They believe they could never harbor racist feelings, while underneath it's there and driving them.
For me, it's not about the individual candidates but the political parties that they are the leaders of; therefore, my voting decision is not determined by the person as much as it is by the ideology that person represents. When I speak about my disdain for the election, etc., I try to direct my criticisms towards 'Democrats' and 'Republicans' rather than Obama and McCain. Personally, I don't know either one of the men nor have I read their biographies, so I am really not comfortable saying anything about them, as people. I do know that I disagree with their stated policies and have a major problem with there being only 2 major parties allowed in our political process. I think if one looks closer at the comments, the anger is really directed at the Democratic party, of which Obama is merely the head.
My anti-Obama posts have nothing to do with his race, just to clarify. I know you're not singling me out. I'm a Nader supporter, but also support and admire McKinney.
The arguments I use against Obama are the same ones I used against Hillary during the primaries, or John Kerry in 2004, they also had nothing to do with their races.
There are a lot of people out there who aren't afraid to say, "I ain't votin' for no n*r!" I've heard a few.
For myself, I'd love to see a woman or a Black - male or female - elected president. It's long past time for those barriers to be taken down.
Some racial fellings (I dont know how else to put it) are natural. Especially if you didnt grow up in a diverse community. Unless someone is a die-hard racist, I find that taht lifts, once they start to feel more comfortable.
Its like a kid who goes to an all male (or all female) prep school. When they first get around the opposite sex, they are usually nervous as hell. It is just a matter of familiarity.
Of course, there are true racists. But, to call people that, when they feel assuredly that they are not,. is insulting and wins you NO VOTES!
I'm not entirely sure that I buy the "Buckley effect". People were decrying the polls in W. Virginia and KY., saying that 20% of people in these mostly white, poor states, said that "race could be a factor". I think the contrary. That meant that 80% do not think that it is a factor (even if you assume a few are lying--why in KY and VA>???). Along with 96% of the Af. Am. vote, I would think that Af. Am. community leaders would be happy with the decrease in racism. After all, a "Af Am. is nominated for president , people!
Would you - or anyone - care to offer some examples? I have not seen anything of the sort here.
I remember someone mentioning something about Obama's deep baritone voice in a derogatory way, that sort of had that racist tinge---for me anyway. What difference does his voice make to anything?
For example.
That is ridiculous. A "baritone voice"? The other day, someone here said, "We could never have high speed transit, cause whites dont want to ride trains with blakc.." What a bunch of bullshit!!
They also said that, Chris Hedges was referring to Obama being "Muslam when he said he stuck a knife in the back of the poor"! C'mon people!! Yeah, Hedges is being a little melodramatic, but, blaming every thing, every vote you lose on race---well, that is just race baiting.
It is divisive, and does not help.I dont know if the person is racist. A racist is not exactly a vote Obama is counting on, is it?
You too. You think that if someone doesn't like Obama it must be because he's (half) black. This is a riduculously narrow and presumptive way of thinking. What if Marion Berry were running for President ? Or Alan Keyes ? If someone didn't like either one of them, would it be simply because they are black ? Or might there be some substantive and legitimate reasons for a person to not like these two guys ? If the latter, then why can't you accept this with Obama ? Maybe because YOU like Obama and you have a hard time understanding why someone else doesn't ? That's YOUR problem, not theirs.
No, I'm not saying anything close to that. There are plenty of reason to not like Obama that have nothing to do with race, or racism. I'm only observing that I've noticed a FEW comments that seem to be tinged with racism.
I shouldn't have said "many", in my first post--my bad.
Give some examples madcow. Inquiring minds want to know!
And what will happen when enough people stand up for themselves and vote NEITHER Republican or Democrat?
We'll finally have the change we were looking for.
they'll be lonely. They may feel righteous, but they'll be lonely.
NYCartist
But they will also be secure in the knowledge that they did not cast their vote for an overt warmonger like McCain or a more insidious warmonger like Obama.
That is racist. (I'm being sarcastic)
Reread what you wrote. What administration will they be living under while "secure in their knowledge"? Fat solace.
NYCartist
You seem to be somehow missing the point. If people vote for a third party or an independent candidate, it would then mean that they did not help elect, if they become president, either Obama and McCain, both of whom, as I wrote in my earlier comment, are laying great emphasis upon using military force in order to [allegedly] solve problems which are in actuality aimed to further the use of American imperialism.
A) I won't have blood on my hands.
B) I'll be voting to build a better and just country for the future.
and
C) Who says there will be that big of a difference? This is the myth the Democrats constantly promote. That somehow Obama is better than McCain.
Just on the recent example, was Obama better than McCain on the $800 billion theft of our money last week?
Especially noteable was that the core of the opposition to that theft came from Republicans, while the Democrats mostly just kow-towed to Wall Street and gave them what they wanted.
Add to that Iraq where Bush is negotiating a withdrawal plan that will get us out quicker than anything Obama has proposed.
Don't get me wrong, I can't stand Republicans. But its starting to be distinctly noticeable that the Democrats have gotten so incredibly awful that they are in places starting to be worse than the Republicans! Never thought I'd see that.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
"Overall, since 2006, the Democrats have gained at least two million new members, while the Republicans have lost 344,000."
These former Republicans are to the right of most progressives. This means the Democratic party is becoming more right-wing. It's a result of having an extreme right-wing President in office these last eight years. We can start moving the party, and the country back to the left if we elect a Democrat. Progressives may be able to grow the Green party if a Democrat is in the White House.
There's a reason why Obama moved right---that's where the votes are. Progressives are a little minority in America today, and getting smaller every day. If you want to get big---vote Obama!
Ridiculous & self-contradictory. Madcow admits Obama has "moved right" & that "the Democratic party is becoming more right-wing." Yet in the very next breath she asserts that by voting for these right-wing clowns, "We can start moving the party, and the country back to the left."
I'd be amused to hear your attempt to explain the mechanics of these non sequiturs. In particular, how exactly is a Democratic White House supposed to "grow the Green party"? Are you under the illusion that the Dem Party has some sort of secret fondness for Greens?
It's called incremental change my friend. It happens slowly over a long period of time. Just like it's been happening with the right since 1980. That's 28 years to get here, on the brink of fascism.
Zinn said it best:
"I think voters should vote for Obama, not because he goes as far as needs to be gone, but because with Obama there is sort of a chance of a movement away from our present situation. Whereas with McCain, he is stuck in the Bush philosophy. With Obama there’s sort of little glimmers of possibility. Our big job is not just to vote for Obama so that there is a possibility, but to turn that possibility into a reality by creating a social movement in this country which Obama will have to pay attention to — because that, ultimately, is what brings about change. The President or Congress have never initiated important change. No, what’s needed is a social movement such as we had in the labor movements of the 1930s, the black movement, the anti-war movement, womens’ movement of the ’60s, a new social movement in this country which will shake up Obama and his conservative cabinets and move them in bolder directions just as the agitators of the ’30s moved FDR in a bolder direction."
I know you don't want to hear this again because it defeats everything you've been arguing about. This is a solution. Something you apparently don't believe in.
"I know you don't want to hear this again because it defeats everything you've been arguing about. This is a solution. Something you apparently don't believe in."
madcow,
I'm going to vote for Obama, but in no way do I believe either my vote or his presidency will be a solution. A vote for Obama is merely the better of two bad roads.
You know, after just sitting through an hour and a half of the second presidential debate, it reinforced to me just how vacuous this whole election crap is. It is pure kabuki theater! Neither candidate and neither party is being bold and honest.
So, while I feel Obama is the better choice of the two who have a chance of being president, I don't believe for a New York minute that he will be able to make radical changes, even during this time of radical problems. I'm afraid that the people have run out of time outs and lifelines - we are truly on or own.
Very tough times lie right ahead. I don't want to make them any tougher than they surely will be.
I'm always disappointed by the level of discourse in these forums. I agree with you, but I see some signs that give me hope---not many. One thing we can all agree on is the need to open the debates. Imagine having Ralph there pushing back on the talking points---or any other view; Mckinney, Ron Paul, Mike Gravel, or Kucinich. Abolish the Commission on Presidential Debates!
Precisely, what incremental change are you talking about? Give specifics.
On the bailout\theft of last week, you had exactly the same position from Obama and McCain. This is very typical of their economic policies. Its hard to think of any case where Obama is really any better. I don't know of any incremental changes that Obama is proposing.
Likewise on foreign policy. Obama is promoting and continuing the same wars. He wants to keep troops in Iraq throughout his term, while Bush is negotiating a withdrawal by 2011. Obama wants wars in Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan just like Bush and the Republicans. Again, exactly what incremental changes is Obama proposing.
This is typical from Obama supporters. There are these blind assertions that Obama is better. But they are never supported. And nothing Obama is saying gives anyone any reason to believe that he proposes any incremental changes in the right directionn of all.
Obama is not a progressive. Never has been. If Obama was really proposing progressive changes, I might believe this and support madcow's argument. But its a total fantasy.
Last week's vote on the $800 billion theft is telling. It shows you the real choices in this election. Obama and McCain were exactly the same, and both were happy to steal $800 billion out of the public treasuries.
You can vote to support that. Or you can vote in opposition to that by voting Nader, McKinney or Barr. The choices are very clear.
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
Samson October 7th, 2008 7:22 pm
"He wants to keep troops in Iraq throughout his term, while Bush is negotiating a withdrawal by 2011."
I almost always agree with you 100% on your posts but with 20 some odd days left to the election Bush shouldn't be negotiating diddly squat. He should go back to his little ranch and continue cutting that log until Jan 2009 that he did the photo op with several years ago. Not that I'm for Obama continuing and promoting the same wars I'm just tired of Bush trying to hogtie the next president whoever that may be with agreements he is hurrying to get through before he leaves.
Lobo Gris
For me, electing a Dem president will likely make things worse.
What you see with a Dem president is a lot of Dem members of Congress voting for whatever the President wants (ie, just like Republicans in yet another way).
This creates some really nasty dynamics in Congress. Because now you have the same pro-war, pro-corporate agenda being pushed by a Dem president and with large amounts of Dem support in Congress.
We saw this in the 90's with Bill Clinton. He was able to pass bills that the Republicans couldn't dream of under Reagan\Bush precisely because of this sort of dynamic.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
www.samsonsworld.blogspot.com
Samson October 7th, 2008 7:16 pm
"For me, electing a Dem president will likely make things worse."
I never like to see the executive and both houses all controlled by the same party.
Lobo Gris
The Republicans and Democrats are for the most part the same party, just two different names. You'll need newer parties to weaken the two party grip.
Hey Madcow, if you're still around -
Zinn is basically saying that building a new social movement -- one with values like welshTerrier2 described in his post above -- is the MAIN THING. Zinn only mentioned the idea of voting for Obama because he suspects the D's would be a bit less ferociously repressive than the R's. So they might permit an atmosphere in which the movement would have a better chance of getting off the ground.
IN CONTRAST, your position is all about encouraging childish silly illusions in Democrats. You make silly claims, such as "Obama will be a transformational leader. Obama will stop the war. Obama will give progressives a seat at the table." etc etc. // Zinn has no such illusions.
So you see, even though you quote Zinn, & pretend to admire his wisdom, you actually don't understand what he's saying. And your position is really nothing like his.
You guys crack me up. You're so desperate to hold on to the notion that one should "never vote for Obama" that when one of your heroes comes out and says:
"I think voters should vote for Obama, not because he goes as far as needs to be gone, but because with Obama there is sort of a chance of a movement away from our present situation. "
you twist and turn his words to mean something else entirely. What did Zinn say? "I think voters should vote for Obama..." Hello, do you see those words looking back at you from your computers?
"...I know you don't want to hear this again because it defeats everything you've been arguing about..."
- You don't really understand the quote. You like it only because it tells people to vote for Obama. But Zinn also says that the difference between Obama & McCain is small ("With Obama there’s sort of little glimmers of possibility" -- hardly a strong "endorsement"). And he says that what we really need is "... a social movement such as we had in the labor movements of the 1930s..."
In other words, Zinn is saying that without that "movement" he speaks of, nothing constructive is going to happen. (You are aware, aren't you, that Zinn is neither a Democrat, nor a supporter of the 2-party system? Why do you suppose that is?)
If Obama wins, do you suppose there is going to be a social movement "such as we had in the labor movements of the 1930s"? Where will it come from? Do you intend to take an active part of it? Do you think it's more likely that such a movement will emerge, or that people will simply go on watching television, then voting for R's & D's once every few years? My bet would be on the latter. Without any meaningful breakthrough in political consciousness, most people will simply follow the culturally conventional path. With no serious challenge to the 2-party tyranny, nothing is going to change.
Of course I believe a social movement is possible. There are things happening NOW that have never happened before in this country. The internet alone is huge. Never seen before. The internet could someday supplant the TV as the number one source of information. Information is power.
I don't think you really understand the quote. He's saying that with Obama there's a CHANCE to advance---WITH enough people to push for a change. Without that "glimmer" it's more of the same. And the effect of a Palin in power could advance all the regressive aspects of our culture---the narrow-minded religious fanatics on the rise. She has the charisma and the ambition to lead us into a new fascism.