Some of us who like Barack Obama get accused of having drunk the Kool-Aid - or perhaps love-potion would be more accurate - and thus being too smitten by his rhetorical enticements to see him clearly for what he is.
Maybe that accurately describes many of his fans, but it's definitely not me.
I warmed up to Obama slowly, and I'm still rather dubious about what he would actually do as president. Moreover, I found his rhetorical gifts to be, if anything, both overstated and simultaneously a bit off-putting. For a long time, I never thought that Obama was quite the magician at the microphone that he was supposed to be. And when he was eloquent, he raised my hard-earned suspicions about those politicians who can make people feel good with words, whilst deftly picking their pockets at the very same time. We had a president like that in the 1980s, and then another one in the 1990s. It didn't work out so well. (Although it did work out better than the current one, who skipped the rhetorical foreplay altogether and jumped directly to the royal screwing.)
I didn't really start to warm up to Obama until February or so. But I have to say that since then, he seems more impressive to me each week. It's easy to like this guy a lot in a relative sense - which may be why I or others come off as gaga for 'Bama when we're not actually. Anyhow, he's certainly light-years ahead of either of his competitors for the presidency. But, the more I see him in action, the more I like him in an absolute sense as well. I think perhaps he's for real, and I think perhaps he could be a great president at a moment of multiple crises in this country.
Perhaps not. The real danger is that he would settle for half-measures and replicate the behavior of the Clinton presidency (make that one-tenth-measures). He might even be adored for that, given the public's disgust with the current government, and given their actual desire to avoid serious amounts of real change, however much they like to mouth the words. Even if that was all he was, that would still be one hell of an improvement. I think he would have little choice but to end the war in Iraq and to move on national healthcare, even if he didn't want to risk the considerable political capital necessary for pursuing either of these initiatives. Those two changes alone would be worth the price of admission, but you most certainly could also throw in improved relations with the world, a real government in place of rampant cronyism, much improved environmental protection, and at least moderates as choices for the Supreme Court and other federal judgeships. Like I said, that alone - essentially a return to the status quo ante - would represent some very substantial improvement.
I'd say the real question is whether Obama would have the courage and skill to tackle other real problems that require Americans to actually make some serious changes and sacrifices, and that would require fighting some very powerful lobbies. Certainly healthcare falls under that category, but I think Obama has promised that enough now that he could not really walk away from it. But what about energy policy? Global warming? Military spending? De-imperializing American foreign policy? Entitlement reform? The deficit and the debt? The economy? Gay rights? Regulation of Wall Street?
He can't try to do all these things at once, and he absolutely shouldn't. And yet, many of them scream out for solutions yesterday, let alone tomorrow. Obama could probably easily ride out four years, or even eight, and still get away with pretending to address some of these problems, while remaining highly popular. Clinton did it. Indeed, it is quite likely that much of Obama'a popularity would rest on his not seriously addressing these issues. But the mark of greatness in his or any other presidency is the ability to articulate the big issues of our time (and to do so accurately, Mr. Bush), to place them on the national agenda, to sell the issues at home and abroad, to advance the right solutions, and then to successfully implement those. FDR did it twice, with the New Deal and the World War II. Clinton never did - unless you happen to think the V-Chip was a great leap forward for humankind - though the near-term read on his presidency is that it was still modestly successful. Does Obama have Rooseveltian levels of courage and moxie to be something special? Hard to say so far (and, of course, there's the minor matter of getting elected still ahead of him), but I like some of the signs I see.
I like Obama more each week for a number of reasons. One is certainly the eloquent rhetoric. I think that can be hugely important, as long as it's real, not empty. I'll admit that I initially shared the concern of many that Obama was all rhetoric, no substance. And, to a certain extent it's true, his speeches pretty much contain a lot of lofty notions that are about as objectionable as motherhood and apple pie. But the truth is that he's actually used some pretty tough language on a number of issues, including the two I care about most - the war and economic justice. When I looked closely at those speeches I realized that he is saying pretty much exactly what I'd want a progressive politician to be saying. And, to the minor extent that he's not tossing more red meat out in my direction, I have to admire his wisdom in refraining from doing so, even assuming (which I don't) that he is so inclined. He's not going to get elected by banging the socialism drum, or the Bush impeachment drum, or the fairness to Palestinians drum, so why should he? Especially as a candidate, I don't expect him to commit political suicide, nor do I want him to. As they say, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good. A perfect Candidate Obama would surely yield a disastrous President McCain. No thanks to that.
Obama's speeches really are quite impressive, and I think it's fair to say that this country and this world need some uniting now, and need some direction too. So I like him for that reason, but I also like him because he's a really smart candidate. Obama seems to have brought the ethos of successful community organizing to electoral politics, just as Paul Wellstone did, and it's worked. In fact, it's worked really well. After a year and a half of campaigning, we would do well to remind ourselves of the enormity of the dragon he's slain. I don't think anyone - least of all the Clintons themselves - seriously expected him to dethrone Her Inevitableness, Queen Hillary, and yet he's done just that, and quite masterfully. They never saw it coming. They blew off the caucus states, and he went there and out-hustled and out-organized and out-smarted them, quietly pocketing the delegates necessary to win the nomination. Moreover, the Clintons have continued throughout the campaign - and continued again this week with her speech in Kentucky - to bait him into overreacting by declaring victory or showing the slightest annoyance at her massively destructive continuation in the race. He won't do it. He continues to praise her and remains gracious to a fault. I suspect that graciousness is a genuine part of his personality, but either way, it's also extremely smart. Timing is everything, and if he declares victory prematurely he risks being perceived as a bully, and throwing the emotional momentum of the race back in her direction.
He's also smart in the way that he's now transitioning into the general election. The simplest way to win this year is to morph John McCain into George W. Bush. It ain't exactly a giant, unfair leap to do so, either, but leave it to any other Democrat running for president to somehow forget. Not Obama. He's been labeling McCain as George Bush's third term for months now, which is precisely the language he should use. As long as voters believe that - and they should, despite McCain's absurd and absurdly late efforts to distance himself from Bush - everything else that follows beyond that perception is mere commentary. Not for nothing is 'change' the operative word of this election. Voters are ravenous for the opportunity to reject the status quo, and Obama is making sure that they have that opportunity by (rightly) chaining McCain to the sinking ship of Bushism that McCain helped launch and keep afloat all these years.
Obama is also brilliant and gutsy to use Karl Rove's rule of attacking an opponent's strength, although in his case it is legitimate to do so, whereas for Rove it's always breathtakingly nauseating when he goes after someone in the cheapest and most deceitful fashion. McCain's supposed to be Mr. Clean, right? This week, Obama reminded us how a decade ago McCain had proposed barring lobbyists from working on campaigns. He went on to note that, "John McCain then would be pretty disappointed in John McCain now, because he hired some of the biggest lobbyists in Washington to run his campaign. And when he was called on it, his top lobbyist actually had the nerve to say the American people won't care about this." For the life of me, I can't visualize John Kerry or Michael Dukakis or the Al Gore of 2000 exhibiting either the smarts or the courage to toss a heater right down the middle like that. Which is why they all lost and Obama likely will not.
McCain would like very much to position himself as above the fray in the coming campaign, based on his POW experience and his supposed clean government agenda. That would be an outrageous gift, and one which it looks to me that Obama is smart enough not to bestow on him. After all, McCain has been very much part of the problem, not the solution, all along. The regressive right and its electoral vehicle - aka the Giant Oleaginous Pukefest - have made a shambles of this country, and it is more than fitting that McCain should be hoisted by his own petard. Yes, it's true that he is not as monstrous as some of them, but he's also far less the 'maverick' (can we please just ban this word for the rest of this year?) than he'd love for you to believe he is. In any case, with the right's record - ranging from Iraq, to exploding debt, to Katrina, to global warming, to a wrecked economy - anybody still willing to call themselves a Republican deserves everything they get this November. And they're gonna get a lot. At this point, they literally cannot even win a congressional seat in Mississippi (Mississippi!!), and that's in a district that Bush won by something like 24 percent less than four years ago.
A third reason I like Obama is because he is reaching people and mobilizing them. That is important for winning, and it will be important for governing too. Participation in politics is off the charts this cycle - at least by American politics' standards - and a fair chunk of that is attributable to Obama (though George Bush certainly deserves a lot of credit for bringing out voters, too, much to the chagrin of his party). Moreover, Obama is raising unprecedented amounts of money from unprecedented numbers of contributors. Again, this will be crucial to both winning and to governing. He has already demonstrated the former, stomping Clinton after her fat-cats had already maxed out and not too many other folks were much interested. As for governing, a President Obama would have a lot of stakeholders expecting big things from him in the White House, people that he dare not disappoint. Equally important would be the stakeholders he wouldn't have. Nice folks such as Exxon/Mobil, Blackwater, Halliburton and the like.
I'm also warming up to Obama, fourth, because I think he's tough enough to throw a punch. It took the Democrats thirty years to figure this one out, but it looks as though they finally have. Obama's not gonna be some robotic Michael Dukakis, talking the fine points of arcane policy prescriptions when he's just been asked how he would react to his wife being raped. A bunch of scumbags in the Tennessee Republican Party have already begun a campaign against Michelle, and he right away called them "low-class" for questioning his wife's patriotism. He went on to say, "Whoever is in charge of the Tennessee GOP needs to think long and hard about the kind of campaign they want to run", and, "These folks should lay off my wife". For my money, that's pitch-perfect. Not only is he ethically right to say these things, and not only is he strategically wise as well, but the plain truth is the voting public wants to see whether a presidential candidate can actually slug it out when it's needed, and they're not necessarily wrong in principle to look for that.
Obama's also not going to play the moronic patsy like Kerry did four years ago, waiting three weeks to respond to the Swiftboaters' character assassination attempts. Both George Bush and McCain tried to attach Obama to Neville Chamberlain this last week - in Bush's too-clever-by-half case, without naming names and then trying to deny the intended target they had already previously made clear. Even so, Obama didn't wait, but rather shot right back, attacking Bush for using national security yet again to divide the country and score political points. When McCain got into the act, no doubt on the direction of Karl Rove or some Karl Rove clone, Obama kicked it right back in his teeth, and once again tied him to Bush's idiocy: "Iran is the biggest single beneficiary of the war in Iraq," he said. "John McCain wants to double down that failed policy." I tell ya, if John Kerry was the nominee, and Bob Shrum was advising him on the way to the latter's tenth presidential campaign loss in a row (with zero wins), they'd maybe get around to responding to these pot-shots by February. Maybe. Obama didn't wait for a single news cycle to go by.
And he went even further, which is a fifth reason I like this guy. He actually talked intelligently and honestly with the American public, instead of pandering to their political vacuousness, and instead of stupidly buying into the right's absurd fear frame, and thus playing on their turf. Obama made the ridiculously obvious, but so long now absent, simple contextual observation about the threat of Iran. Which is that, whatever it is, it ain't like the Soviet Union, with whom Saint Reagan negotiated, and against whom we didn't need to go to war, through 45 years of competition. What a concept, eh?! I bet a lot of Americans are wishing maybe they had thought of that back in 2003. I know a lot of Iraqis are. And about a million more would be. Except, of course, that they happen to be dead.
Indeed, if I was Obama, I'd go even further and use the whole Reagan hagiography nonsense against its perps, just like a jujitsu black-belt uses the weight of an opponent against that adversary. I'd run ads asking "Why is John McCain demeaning Ronald Reagan? President Reagan negotiated with our enemies, so why does John McCain describe what Ronald Reagan did as naive and foolish?" Boom. End of story.
So, Obama had the courage to do something that just doesn't happen anymore in American politics. He talked logically and forthrightly about an issue. That is especially rare when it comes to foreign policy and security threats. He noted that "strong countries and strong presidents talk to their adversaries. That's what Reagan did with Gorbachev. I mean think about it. Iran, Cuba, Venezuela - these countries are tiny compared to the Soviet Union. They don't pose a serious threat to us the way the Soviet Union posed a threat to us. And yet we were willing to talk to the Soviet Union at the time when they were saying we're going to wipe you off the planet."
This is precisely the kind of respectful, non-contemptuous, mature, adult sort of language Obama also employed with his already famous Philadelphia speech on race, which was astonishing for a variety of reasons, but most especially because it was the first time in a very long time that a politician didn't address us as if we were kindergartners, unable to think beyond two-dimensional cartoon cutouts of Mr. Good versus Mr. Evil. I'm not entirely sure the American public actually craves this sort of discourse (because, of course, it inevitably leads - horror of horrors - to their having to take responsibility for their own politics), but I sure as hell do. And I'm not sure the American public deserves this sort of honest discussion, but most assuredly the rest of the world does. In any case, Obama is providing it, and it is shockingly novel. And breathtakingly respectful.
Think about the profound effect that alone could have. Four years of that from the bully pulpit could dramatically change the political culture in this country. Even we progressives sometimes lose sight of the extent to which the entire regressive agenda is built on everyone failing to tell the emperor he's walking around in his freakin' underwear. The right have many nightmares which keep them up at night - an end to their greedy feeding at the public trough, having to share resources with the rest of the world, a black man or a woman in the White House, etc. - but, trust me on this, nothing shakes them up quite like the existential threat of someone intelligently and forthrightly discussing policy questions in America. Once that crack in the dam appears, they are finished forever.
Finally, I like Obama because he seems to have some real decency and integrity about him. And, man, is that rare in American politics. From what I can tell, he doesn't seem so psychologically damaged - like both Clintons and both Bushes and plenty of others - that he absolutely has to have the presidency in order to validate his so very fragile sense of self-esteem. He doesn't seem willing to say or do anything in order to get there. He doesn't seem as bogus as a three dollar bill when he speaks to people. He doesn't strike me as a predator who will do anything to liberate me from my vote.
Maybe that's just because he's such an amazing politician that he fools me better than all the rest. I will admit that at different points over the years John McCain has charmed me to various degrees, though I certainly gave up on him forever after his performance at the Republican convention of 2004 and his enthusiastic stumping for Bush that year on the basis of national security. And he's only gotten worse since. Bill Clinton, on the other hand, seems to have mesmerized millions, though he never did anything for me (apart from not being George Herbert Walker Bush or Ronald Reagan), other than to raise my hackles at regressing the Democratic Party as well as the country's general political discourse.
Maybe I'm wrong about Obama. Maybe he sees people like me coming from a mile away, and proceeds to eat us for breakfast. But I don't think so. Neither his words nor his actions nor his demeanor nor his policies nor his background suggest to me that he is the garden variety self-serving politician we've barely survived for so long now. As far as I can see, Obama's got integrity, sincerity and grace about him. How about that in a president, eh? Out of three hundred million of us, I suppose we were bound to stumble into someone like that eventually, just by the laws of probability alone.
Obama looks to me, in short, to be inspiring, smart, gutsy, empowering, forthright and decent. Moreover, I think it is possible that he just might actually be capable of uniting the country, as he claims to aspire to do. I think the country would rally behind him in that effort, bestowing on him a healthy heaping of good will and support, and a serious interest in transcending the massive failings of the current crowd. In this respect, I am much reminded of the hopefulness originally attached to Tony Blair, and his resounding victory of 1997, following 18 years of Thatcherism.
Let us hope that, should Obama win the presidency and win that good will and support, he won't also follow Blair's path in providing showmanship over substance, and criminal idiocy when he actually does do something substantive. I don't think he'd make those mistakes.
In my lifetime I've survived Nixon, Reagan and two Bushes, not to mention Watergate, impeachment, the Cold War, Vietnam, Iraq twice, wimpy Democrats, a cowardly press, and a lazy and selfish electorate. And I've got all the scars and bruises you'd expect to show for those decades of disappointment. Believe me, I'm no Pollyanna.
It takes a lot these days to get me to use the words 'hope' and 'politics' in the same sentence. But I am more hopeful about American politics now than I've been in decades, and perhaps ever in my lifetime.
Barack Obama is a substantial part of that optimism.
David Michael Green is a professor of political science at Hofstra University in New York. He is delighted to receive readers' reactions to his articles (dmg@regressiveantidote.net), but regrets that time constraints do not always allow him to respond. More of his work can be found at his website, www.regressiveantidote.net.
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153 Comments so far
Show AllThat's true RSJ. What would have happened if they had won either Ken or W.VA?
KEM PATRICK [May 29th, 2008 7:20 pm], I'd just point out that in reality Gore won Florida in 2000, if the Florida court-ordered statewide recount had not been stopped by the Supreme Court -- Reuters, and even the NY Times admitted it in late 2001. Kerry, according to the exit polls and vote analysis by Mark Crispin Miller, Greg Palast, Harvey Wasserman and Bob Fitrakis, won Ohio in 2004, meaning they both actually won those elections -- without WV and Kentucky. That Gore didn't fight for it properly, and Kerry didn't fight for it at all, was the problem.
We'll know in November.
I've heard it argued that the reason the percentages went up as the campaign progressed is that Republican voters, knowing McCain had the nomination locked up and believing Hillary to be easier to beat in November, crossed over to vote in the Democratic primaries to make her more likely to win or, at the very least, less likely to drop out anytime soon, thereby preventing the Dems from focusing on McCain. I see no reason to believe this hasn't at least inflated those percentages a bit. In MS, for instance, exit polling showed something like a fourth of her voters didn't find her trustworthy or believe she shared their values. These people either (A) found Obama an even *worse* match or (B, and far more likely in my opinion) voted for her knowing full well they'd vote for McCain in November.
Like I've said, I just can't buy into those large numbers when no one can give me a real reason McCain would be more appealing to that many people. Especially now, as it turns out his top economic advisor was, at least in part, directly responsible for our current economic downturn.
How voters wish to vote is beyond my control, she got as many as Obama did and won the key states. You say it doen't matter how W.Vir and Kentucky vote, but how they have always voted is how the election went. They are key states and Hillary won there and Obama lost em big time.
Any mispeled words this time?
I always came in last in spelling bees too.
Kem, they are electoral votes, not "electorial" votes. I hate to be cynical, but honestly, it's going to be McCain or Obama for President. If by some miracle Hillary swipes it from Obama, she will doom us to a sure loss in November (by the loss of the black vote and the youth vote). I know the Dems are far from perfect, but they are the only viable party to oppose the Republicans at the moment. Wishing for a strong 3rd party won't make one appear. I don't really understand the charges of corporate control for any of the candidates. Of COURSE there will be corporate donors and influence. What kind of fairy land are we all living in? The point is to pick the candidate with the lowest possibility of bad corporate influence (after all, there are some companies we agree with, correct?). That has to be Obama, doesn't it? How could McCain be a better choice? I'm from PA, and I voted for Obama. Out of all the votes, only 9% separated them. Yes there will be anti-black votes in November(I can name several people I know who will vote against him for that reason). I still believe we will carry the state for Obama. Kentucky and West Virginia won't vote for the Dem candidate if he's Jesus, so what does it matter.
I will vote for Obama and hope for the best. He will be miles better than McCain. That is a good start in the right direction for now.
No it was not every state ~Huzzah~. It was Pa, W.VA and Kentucky. It was 40% of Hillary voters who say they will not vote for Obama if he's the Demo nominee and another 25% who say if he is they will vote for McCain.
The percentages went up as the campaign went on. That type of thing has not occurred with the Obama voters concerning Hillary with any like percentage. About 12% of Obama voters say they will not vote for Hillary. That is why I believe the ticket better be Hillary/Obama if the Demms want to win.
KEM PATRICK --
If you're still here, I want to ask you about this 65% you keep mentioning. Do you have a link to the specific polls or something? I'm not trying cast doubt on you, but I just have a hard time believing that number holds true. West Virginia, maybe, Kentucky, maybe, but not the rest of the country. I mean, would an accurate description of the poll results read, "Not all Clinton voters will vote for Obama; up to 65% in WV"?
Furthermore, the argument lacks pull with me because I haven't seen a recent equal poll asking the question of Obama voters. I believe Obama voters, especially those who are young or black, will not vote for Clinton after the way she has campaigned, should she be given the nomination. Again, it's because of the way she campaigned, nothing else. I have *still* yet to be given a solid reason why so many Clinton supporters would not vote for Obama or, worse, vote for McCain.
IMHO, Clinton has way too much baggage. Even in states she does better in than Obama (again, according to POLLS conducted almost 6 months before the election) she is a more polarizing figure; while she might have more support in those states, many times so does McCain. The same holds true for most states. There are simply more swing voters to go after with Obama, and I'm confident he'll gain the large majority of them. If blue collar workers in WV truly believe they'll be better off with McCain than with Obama, then they really *are* stupid and deserve both the shitstorm a McCain presidency will bring AND the piles of scorn they evidently believe have been heaped upon them by everyone else in the Democratic Party.
And since you keep bringing up FL and MI -- I STILL can't see why they'd punish Obama, themselves, and all of the U.S. for what happened. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. That said, it's what *I* wil be doing come November if Hillary gets the nom. Again, based only on the kind of campaign she ran. Especially given that over half of the voters there would have voted for someone else had all the names been on the ballot. That means for over half those voters, Hillary was not the first choice. I'm to the point where I don't care if they seat the delegates or not, but Hillary certainly should not get all the delegates like she wants. She *shouldn't* get any more than she would've received had it been a full ballot. Allot the delegates according to the exit poll -- 46% Clinton, 35% Obama, the remainder uncommitted.
I know she won Florida pretty big, but still, it was not a legitimate contest. There was an agreement not to campaign there which, I'm sorry, *she broke* by having a fundraiser on the eve of the election. And that's the issue here. She agreed to everything for the start. She and her campaign said repeatedly that FL and MI would count for nothing. Why? Hubris. They were all SO sure she would have the nomination locked up by Super Tuesday that she wouldn't need FL and MI. It wasn't until they realized Obama was winning that counting FL and MI meant anything to her. Surely MI and FL voters aren't so obtuse as to not realize this. Or is this a case of "Don't pander unless you're pandering to me!"?
I just wish the superdelegates would hurry up and make a decision; if enough of them go with Obama we can drop this BS and get on with defeating McCain...
Okay, thanks, Kem.
Don't even bother with her RSJ, she's friggin crazy.
tetti_tatti [May 27th, 2008 9:37 pm] wrote: "RSJ another kool-aid drinkers. Spare us the Dem brainwashing BS about DNC or DLC, it might work with the idiots like DIM PATRICK or the fools on Democratic Underground but not here. Democrats are financed by corporations as much as Republicans are. Case closed. The evidence is in their (in)actions: we're still in Iraq, Bush hasn't been impeached and the war cash will continue to flow for years. Wake the f*ck up."
Good for you, Tetti, this time you managed to spell 'Kool Aid' right. Too bad the rest of your post is not. There is a difference between DLC Dems and 'regular' Dems -- the late Sen. Paul Wellstone, Rep. Dennis Kucinich and Sen. Russ Feingold are just three examples of Democrats who are not in the DLC and didn't/don't take big corporate money. If you knew anything about impeachment or any of the other things you babble about, you'd know the Dems don't have the votes in either the House or Senate to impeach Bush or Cheney. Remove your head from where the moon don't shine.
tetti_tatti [May 27th, 2008 9:37 pm] wrote: "As for Dems being the WAR PARTY no amount of dishonest revisionism on you part will change that. Go learn history."
Be specific on your allegation that I dishonestly revised historical fact. What part of what I wrote do you dispute? I have learned history -- you're the one having a problem with it.
Why don't you volunteer? Maybe you can stop him from lying about himself?
athiest, actually I like Obama but he leans too far to the right to suit me. I think the top three are all bought and paid for by the corporations, military-industrial complex, weapons industry, and AIPAC. They're all too gung ho about war. At any rate I'll still give Obama a chance IF he doesn't choose Hellary as VP; hopefully he won't be that foolish.
lillulu, really brilliant tactic, not voting for the person you think is the best candidate for the presidency ! I guess you really didn't think he was that great after all.
One more thing: If Obama ends up being so lily-livered as to choose Hellary as vice president, I won't vote for him. I'll vote for Ralph Nader. Hellary wants Obama dead so she can be president.
Republicans are the WAR PARTY, too. That's our two choices. Continual and unnecessary wars paid for with our taxes.
RSJ another kool-aid drinkers. Spare us the Dem brainwashing BS about DNC or DLC, it might work with the idiots like DIM PATRICK or the fools on Democratic Underground but not here. Democrats are financed by corporations as much as Republicans are. Case closed. The evidence is in their (in)actions: we're still in Iraq, Bush hasn't been impeached and the war cash will continue to flow for years. Wake the f*ck up.
As for Dems being the WAR PARTY no amount of dishonest revisionism on you part will change that. Go learn history.
~Drift~, you are not making a lick of sense to me. What am I missing? You are criticizing Hillary because she wants to have the Florida and Michigan delegates seated? _____ And Obama agreed with her on that 100%. He just didn't want another primary election. He wants the votes split 50/50. Which is less than fair and the majority of voters in those states would have been pissed about that also. The majority of the voters will not vote for Obama if he's the nominee because of that.
It would be totally crazy not to have them seated at the convention. The Dems might just as well hand Michigan and Florida to the Republicans and admit they lost those two states. That's not logical. You sound as if the entire mess was Hillary Clinton's fault. It was not. Why would anyone not want to have another primary and let the voters decide who they want??? Oh yeah, Obama didn't want that. ___ Wonder why?
~RSJ~ you're wasting your time writing to ~Titti Tatti~, he/she twice wrote on the other Nader thread that ALL democrats are cocksuckers. That's his/her words. A real nut case.
tetti_tatti May 27th, 2008 7:51 am wrote: "Democrats are financed by corporations and work exclusively for them. They're also the War Party, they have always been. They started the US involvement in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam and Bosnia. They supported both Gulf Wars."
Actually, Tetti Tatti, it's the Democratic Leadership Council Dems, a group that was founded by Bill and Hillary Clinton, that accepts large amounts of money from the same corporations that traditionally back Republican candidates. Your ridiculous implication that the Dems are financed entirely by corporations ignores the history of the GOP, and particularly the last thirty years of Republican rule. Reagan and both Bushes have taken more money from and rewarded their corporate cronies much more substantially than any Democrat, even Bill Clinton.
You're also wrong to assert that a Democratic president 'started' WW2, Korea and Vietnam. The Japanese attacked us at Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, which began our miltary involvement in WW2. Would you have preferred that FDR not respond to the destruction of our Pacific Fleet and the loss of over 2,000 American lives? Harry Truman reacted to the North Korean invasion of South Korea by honoring our treaty with South Korea, and with the blessing of the UN. BTW, not just Americans were fighting in Korea -- it was an international force. Would you have had Truman ignore our treaty to defend South Korea and the UN? Vietnam actually started under the Republican presidency of Dwight Eisenhower just after the French lost the battle of Dien Bien Phu in 1955 and decided to withdraw from the country. Kennedy and Johnson increased US military involvement, but Eisenhower sent in the first roops, called 'advisors' back then. Kennedy announced in 1963 that he would end the war in Vietnam, were he re-elected in 1964. Bosnia was also an international effort, sanctioned by the UN, but it's true that Dem president Woodrow Wilson inserted US troops into WW1 -- perhaps things would have been better in Europe if the tyrannical Kaiser Wilhelm had won, but no one imagined that at the time. Of course, Republican presidents started both Gulf Wars and we are still mired in and paying for that gross mistake.
It might be more accurate to say that Democratic presidents involve us in wars that we win, such as WW1 and WW2, whereas Republicans tend to the losers, such as Korea, ended by Ike; Vietnam, ended by Nixon and Ford; and the current mess in Iraq.
tetti_tatti May 27th, 2008 7:51 am wrote: "David Michael Green is just another idiot who drank the cool-aid. Case closed."
I don't know what you've been drinking, but your estimation of Dr. Green is just as erroneous as your knowledge of history. End of story.
Kem, we've already been around the horn on your assertions on many another thread, so I won't bother to belabor it here except to say it's kind of sad you're still trying to make the same thin case.
Not to flippant, KEM, but good grief yourself. You haven't addressed the facts I've brought forward on this. She signed a PLEDGE, and then went back on it, colluding not just with ANY Rethuglicans, but Florida ones... some of the worst of the worst. This is "Operation Chaos," being orchestrated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh to throw the Dem party into disarray and thereby snatching defeat from the jaws of certain victory. This SHOULD be a pivotal, LANDSLIDE year for Dems, but because sHrillary is so unscrupulous, she's going to play sabatuer in the hopes of getting the nomination in 2012.
Good grief ~DRIFT~, Hillary was aware that if the Florida delegate were not seated in Florida and Michigan, McCain would win easily those two states. How can anyone criticize her for fighting that stupidity. Obama agreed entirely with her about that. Where he has screwed up big time, is not going along with another primary election. Because of that, McCain will likely still win those two states.
AGI, I agree wth you except, the 65% figure is why Hillary would be the better choice as the Demo nominee. What the voters decide in that regard is not her fault. I don't believe that 65%figure will change by 50% and if not McCain wins.
KEM,
The Rethug-controlled FL state legislature passed the bill that moved the state primary up. It was signed into law by Rethug governor, Charlie Crist.
The 3 remaining candidates going into that contest, Obama, Edwards, and Clinton, ALL signed a pledge not to campaign there when the DNC refused to take its marching orders by FL state Rethugs.
Only after she started getting her ass kicked by Obama did sHrillary suddenly become an advocate for having FL state delegates seated, thereby reaping the harvest of discontent among the states Dems from seeds sown by Rethugs.
Here's a link to get you started: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/03/09/foxnews-sunday-debbie-wasserman...
Again, sHrillary is nakedly driven to seek power at all costs.
The US is called an empire, a term accepted by many because it fits. Big states or swing states as they are labeled decide the election. Fuck the united shit. Just do it Vermont, secede.
Obama is a Democrat.
Democrats are financed by corporations and work exclusively for them. They're also the War Party, they have always been. They started the US involvement in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam and Bosnia. They supported both Gulf Wars.
David Michael Green is just another idiot who drank the cool-aid. Case closed.
Kem Patrick:
"What you, AGI and many others here seem to be ignoring, is the 65% figure of Democrats who won't vote for Obama in those "key" states."
I am not ignoring them and I have already shared my thoughts in this regard:
1) I don't believe these number will hold up once the nomination is over.
2) We are in a democracy. If McCain wins because some Clinton supporters won't vote for Obama, that would be their choice and responsibility to bear.
http://politicjock.blogspot.com/
And I don't suppose you are ASSUMING again with the word "accidental"? Well yes, actually I do suppose you are. You are the Assumers assumer ~lillulu~. Lol
I'm truly sorry ~Drift~. I don't have a clue of what you are talking about in regards to Hillary and the Florida mess. I am totally unaware that either Hillary or Obama had anything to say about that.
Florida had their primary , Hillary won big and knew the votes would not be counted. She and Obama also know it wasn't fair. He agreed with Clinton they should have another election and then when she offered to pay for one he backed off. What did she do wrong this time?
I am not aware of how many congress men or women have died in crashes. I was talking about assiniations of presidents.
Being somewhat familiar with aircrft and flying I can say this about JFK Jr's crash. He had learned just enough about flying an aircraft to kill himself if he wasn't cautous. He wasn't. He had no business flying in those weather conditions with his limited experience. He flew it right into the water, he never knew what hit him.
You maybe very surprised at the large number pf private aircraft crashes there are annually.
Kem Patrick, have any Republicans died in "accidental" plane crashes just before they were expected to win at being elected to Congress? There's been a few Democrats who have, e.g. Paul Wellstone, Mel Carnahan, and JFK Jr who was also planning to run for the presidency.
I was the one that brought up AZ, and other states out west. Yes, I know it's McCain's home state. But the demographics have been shifting out there for some time. It no longer looks anything like the state Goldwater came out of. I said it will be in play, like NM, NV, CO, and MT. Which is to say the repugs will have to fight hard to win them, spending cash and manpower that in previous elections were allocated elsewhere. And don't be too sure about the home field advantage in AZ for McCain. Just ask former Senator from Tenessee Al Gore, who couldn't carry his home state in 2000.
And it will be because SHillary politicized the FL primary and the seating of the delegates that Obama may lose there. If she'd been the gracious candidate that she'd like us to believe she is, she would've accepted the rules of the party whose nomination she's been seeking, and NOT worked in cahoots with the Rethug-controlled State legislature to pry a little political leverage out the situation.
She is so transparently without any scruples whatsoever. Surely you must see this.
~lillulu~ there has been one Democrat president assinated and three Republicans and two more republicans had assination attempts, Reagan and Ford, who are recent, both after JFK. And again you are "assuming", when you speak of the possible assination of Harding by hs loving wife. Anyway, it is not only Democrats who go out with a bang.
I brought up Arizona Huzzah. I'm sorry I confused you with another here on the Florida/Mich deal. Arizona is a state Hillary won big and I'm certain Obama will lose it and Texas also. Those caucus state wins were a joke, the Demo rules are a damn joke. No it was not Obama's fault about Fla and Mich either, I had posted that long ago here. It's his fault they didn't have another election. He will lose Florida because of that and 'maybe' Michigan.
It was the Republican powers who be in Florida who forced the issue of Florida voters to have the early election, the dems had no say in the matter. Hillary won big there and did not campaign there . She did show up there after the polls were closed to thank the voters and was criticized by the Obama camp for doing that. The big issue in my mind are the 65% of Hillary voters who won't vote for Obama. I'm amazed by that. Thank you for a fun and interesting debate too. ___ You're Okay.
Drift -- I know she didn't say "in case:, but I don't consider that an unreasonable inference. It has been pointed out repeatedly that (a) there were other examples of primary battles going into June, (b) she could have referenced RFK but not mentioned the assassination, (c) the calendars were far different in previous years, and (d) Bill Clinton did had all but sealed the deal a couple of months earlier.
I know she doesn't hope he gets killed, but I don't feel the least bit out of line in thinking that at some level she was thinking that it'd be nice to still be in the mix if someone does just happen to take him out. After all the other shit she's thrown this campaign, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
KEM P --
When did Arizona come into the conversation? I'd no more expect him to lose AZ than I would Obama to lose Illinois.
I'm honestly not sure what you've seen of my opinion on FL and MI. I honestly don't even know what exactly I've said or where I've said it. Well, you say it wasn't her doing. It wasn't Obama's either, then. They both agreed to certain rules. As did the states. Do I think the states should be completely excluded at the convention? No. Do I think it's fair for certain states to have greater influence over the process every primary season? No. Would a revote have been ideal? Sure, but I also think that such a vote shouhldn't just be limited to those who cast a Democratic primary ballot. Why? Because if I were a Michigan voter and Obama supporter (or, at the time, Edwards) and I had been told by everyone involved that my Democratic ballot would not count *and* my only choice among the 3 Dem candidates with a snowball's chance in hell of winning the nomination, much less the general election, was Clinton, I likely would have been one of those who crossed over and voted in the Republican primary. Atheist, I think it was, called such an action shortsighted. Naive, maybe, to believe that the Democrats would follow the rules they had lain out, but I could see myself doing that all the same.
Now I know we couldn't let just everyone vote in the revote, but anyone who stayed home or voted Republican believing there was no point in voting Democratic would be disenfranchised by the party every bit as much as those who voted in the early primary will be by not counting their votes. I don't see any way in which someone doesn't end up disenfranchised.
One of my other points on the matter were that in both states the Republican-controlled legislatures had a significant role in the scheduling of the primaries and, in Michigan's case, killed an effort to get things straightened out ahead of time. There's a really interesting article at the Huffington Post about this. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/22/how-obama-ended-up-on-and_n_103...
The other point is that Michigan exit polls showed that Clinton, had all the candidates been on the ballot, would have only received 46 or 47% of the vote. Obama would've received 33% or so, I think, Edwards 17, Kucinich 2 and Richardson 1. I have a hard time imagining that all those Democratic voters are so pissed at Obama when over half didn't want Clinton to begin with.
BTW, current polls have Obama winning OH and PA.
Kem Patrick, it sounds like Warren Harding's wife may have done him in since he was quite the skirt chaser, and she wouldn't allow an autopsy after his death.
Okay, so Lincoln was a Republican who was assassinated. I'm referring to relatively recent events.
Huzzah,
I don't want her answering any phones at any time in the White House. I think she's the truest Republican in the race, and I detest Republicans.
And sorry, I didn't even hear the "in case" part in her comments. This is what she said:
"My husband did not wrap up the nomination in 1992 until he won the California primary somewhere in the middle of June, right? We all remember Bobby Kennedy was assassinated in June in California."
Careless? Perhaps. Spoken in sheer exhaustion after a marathon primary season where all the candidates have faced thousands of questions from thousands of reporters and members of the general public? Certainly. A veiled reference to assasinating Obama? Bullshit. This whole "story" is a product of the 24-hr news cycle that values sensationalism over journalism. Period. End of story.
That said, I won't be shedding a tear for her, per say... Just for the sorry state of the 4th Estate and how it continues to fail us over and over and over again.
Folks the idea that Obama will lose Pennsylvania or Ohio or any other state in the general election just because he lost them to Clinton is silly. Those voters for Clinton are Democrats, and they will mostly fall in line behind Obama after she does. And she has pledged that she will should he be the nominee.
McCain has so tied himself to Bush that he can't escape that image. Bush is the most unpopular president in history. Coupled with his age, that spells defeat. Furthermore, he just looks too much like Nikita Kruschev, and that has to matter to some portion of the population.
I truly believe Obama will win big in November. I disagree that he should have Hillary as the VP. He needs a very progressive retired military person from the south as his running mate, and Wesley Clark is the perfect solution. So McCain is a war hero. Having a retired 5 star general as your VP kind takes the wind out of the 'war hero' wings. Mr. Clark is very progressive as well.
Obama/Clark.. a winning combo, IMO.
Come on people, let the facts into your heads, regardless of who you want to save you. We've proven Obama is really a conservative, we've proven Clinton is really a conservative, and we've proven Nader is really a conservative. The next president will be a conservative. Period. There is no other realistic outcome! The system can't let one through, and we (determinedly fragmented minorites that we are) can't make it. The next president will be a conservative. Start your plans from there.
Maybe KEM PATRICK has an agenda here… he seems to be lying or making things up about Obama a lot…
Here's the breakdown from the opensecrets website. It seems that Obama is telling the truth that he doesn't take PAC money. And there's nothing about being 100% funded by GE.
Barack Obama
Individual contributions $264,493,051 100%
PAC contributions $-750 -0%
Candidate self-financing $0 0%
Federal Funds $0 0%
Other $946,977 0%
Hillary Clinton
Individual contributions $192,239,572 89%
PAC contributions $1,251,170 1%
Candidate self-financing $10,000,000 5%
Federal Funds $0 0%
Other $11,392,696 5%
John McCain
Individual contributions $88,221,824 91%
PAC contributions $960,990 1%
Candidate self-financing $0 0%
Federal Funds $0 0%
Other
Only Democrat presidents are assinated?
Abe Lincoln was a Republican and so was James Alan Garfield, who BTW as the first left handed president. William McKinley another republican who wore a red carnation in his buttonhole at all times. He was a heavy smoker but wouldn't allow pictures taken of his smoking, he said it wasn't good for the children to see that. He did not die from smoking cigars, it was a smoking gun and bullet that killed him.
It is suspected by many that Repblican Warren Harding was poisoned, but no autopsy was allowed by his wife. Harding was a prolific womanizer, made JFK and Clinton appear as pikers, or "pokers" perhaps. And then our Republican Ronald Reagan came within an inch of having his aorta severed by a bullet. So you see, it was not only Democrats who bit the dust by a bullet.
Drift, "in the hopes" and "in case" mean different things. Do I think she hopes he gets knocked off? No. But whether or not it's what she meant, what she said, in effect, was "in case", if only in part.
Regardless of the intent or lack thereof, it certainly raises doubts about her ability to answer that 3am phone call without accidentally obliterating Iran...
It is not that Hillary and McCain take money from PACs, it is that Obama denies he does. He's a deciever and he's been excellent at it and his campaign staff are expert with tossing bullshit and creating side show issues that our MSM loves to slobber about.
~HUZZAH~ Guess we'll have to agree we disagree. If McCain wins Ohio, as Bush did, and Pennsylvania, Michigan and Florida and I think he will, McCain wins.
I don't understand your opinion concerning Hillay and the Florida and Michigan fiasco. That was not her doing and she wanted another primary election in those states and offered to pay for it. Obama refused to go along. The Demo voters in those states wanted another primary and they are pissed at Obama, not Hillary. McCain will win those two very important states. And Arizona? Ho boy, that's McCain's. The Pheonix area far outnunbers the rest of the state, Tucson and Bisbee are Democrat country, but that's not enough to overcome Pheonix, Green Valley and Sierra Vista.
Whoops!! I apologize for the multiple posts, as there was some kind of error that made it appear they didn't go through.
Division 4 team names Clintons, Bush 41, 43 in John F Kennedy Jr. assassination
by Tom Flocco
Excerpt: "One of my family members was related to JFK Jr.'s grandmother, and although it was not a blood relationship, I had at least a half dozen lengthy conversations with John during the years before he died. We liked each other and hit it off; so this was why John opened up to me and seemed to trust me regarding his future plans to run against either Hillary Clinton for the Senate or George W. Bush for the Presidency in 2000. John had many conversations with my relative; and he gave her permission to discuss his political aspirations with friends so this was not a closely held secret. But what was interesting was that John told me he was pretty sure he could win either of those races." ("Delbert," former Interpol operative and CIA Division 4 team member)"
http://www.tomflocco.com/fs/PurgeTheEvil.htm
Notice it's always Democrats and peace-loving men who are assassinated or mysteriously die in plane crashes. Never Republicans. They don't kill their own. John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., Ghandi, etc. The right-wing war profiteers wouldn't allow them to live out their lives.
lillulu,
I agree with you that Hillary is a conservative politician. You should also know I detest her and Bill's politics. Nor will I vote for her if she did become the nominee. And I'm keeping an open mind toward Obama. His speech on race after the 1st Rev. Wright eruption went a long way towards getting my attention. I'm waiting, however, to see just how much he'll be willing to adopt progressive views before I say I'll definitely vote for him.
That being said, and just because you found a sound bite from some loony fascist bitch on Fox does not change what I heard come out of Hillary's mouth in South Dakota. No reasonable person could construe she meant she was staying in the race in the hopes that Obama would be knocked off. Listen to the audio for yourself. To suggest otherwise is to be hysterical and histrionic. Not qualities that tend to lend you or your arguments any creedence.
KEM PATRICK -- Those states I mentioned currently have Obama WINNING where Clinton would lose. As I said, there are some that have her winning and him losing, too. But those are just polls, and ones based on CURRENT opinions at that. I firmly believe that Obama has a clear advantage in a one-on-one race with McCain, one in which he'd be willing to take the gloves off in response to some of the tactics he has let Clinton use with little retaliation. God knows McCain is vulnerable in a number of areas...
I don't think you can really make a prediction that Obama will lose based solely on the primary results. So what if Clinton won the bigger, "more important" states? There is no reason to believe the voters in those states would not vote for Obama in November apart from the polls in which a remarkably high percentage said they would vote for McCain instead. You have to take the polls into account with the results and, again, assume attitudes will not change in the next 5 months. I still can't understand why someone who supports Clinton would be so anti-Obama that they'd vote for McCain. No one has fiven me a reasonable explanation for such thinking, including...
Thomas More at 10:40. I think I could easily argue that most of your points apply as much to Hillary Clinton as to Obama. Even if the only blemish on her track record was her vote for the Iraq war it would be enough to turn many of us off. Even after the war proved to be the biggest American blunder in recent history, if not ever, she committed the same error with the Iran vote, and her "obliterate" comment just shows how hawkish she really is. Even if she bested Obama on every other issue, which, I believe strongly, she does not, I'd still have a problem voting for her over him because she obviously has not learned anything from Iraq.
The only other point of yours I'm going to mention is the one about his being a uniter. The proof would be in EVERYTHING HE HAS DONE IN THIS CAMPAIGN. The ONLY thing divisive he has done was when he made the "bitter" comment. A comment that was, by the way, every bit as true as Clinton's mentioning of Kennedy's assassination. And after every gaffe, this one by him, the ones by Jeremiah Wright, even the ones by Clinton, he has taken the high road and tried to explain in a rational, reasonable manner the source of whatever was said, acknowledging the differing perspectives that lead to the division. Were he a divider he'd have gone after Clinton after the assassination comment. Did he? No, he said, "Senator Clinton says that she did not intend any offense by it, and I will take her at her word on that." As if her word has been worth a whole helluva lot this campaign...
But all that is beside the point, much like your response to my racism question. I'm not asking why SOMEONE would not like Obama, or even why SOMEONE would choose Clinton over him. Yes, I know it's not racism. At least outside of WV. I'm asking why a CLINTON SUPPORTER (who we would assume has at least SOME Democratic/liberal, if not quite leftist, leanings) would not only NOT vote for Obama but actually vote FOR McCain. The only things I can come up with are basically (A) because he's Black or MAY be a triple-secret-undercover Muslim agent out to destroy America, (B) out of spite since the presumptive first female President lost the nomination, or (C) because they are really Republicans who are going to vote for McCain anyway come November, a la Mississippi in which a quarter of her supporters said she was dishonest and did not share their values.
AGAIN, I don't care why YOU might not like Obama unless you are one of these Clinton supporters who will vote McCain in November. THAT is the person whose thought process I want to understand.
Hillary received $153,750 from employees of News Corp, that is Fox news!!!
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HILLARY CLINTON (D)
Top Contributors
This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.
Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.
DLA Piper $507,850
EMILY's List $498,103
Goldman Sachs $447,850
Citigroup Inc $425,052
Morgan Stanley $406,545
JPMorgan Chase & Co $284,914
Lehman Brothers $279,240
University of California $267,967
National Amusements Inc $251,025
Skadden, Arps et al $233,945
Time Warner $207,950
Greenberg Traurig LLP $204,950
PricewaterhouseCoopers $198,150
Kirkland & Ellis $197,550
Merrill Lynch $187,959
Microsoft Corp $182,019
Ernst & Young $171,025
Latham & Watkins $165,763
Bear Stearns $155,790
News Corp $153,750
Percent of Contributions Coded
Coded $93,035,020 (68%)
Uncoded $43,675,887 (32%)
Total $136,710,907
Why (and How) We Use Donors' Employer/Occupation Information
METHODOLOGY
NOTE: All the numbers on this page are for the 2008 election cycle and based on Federal Election Commission data released electronically on Tuesday, May 20, 2008.
("Help! The numbers don't add up...")
Feel free to distribute or cite this material, but please credit the Center for Responsive Politics. For permission to reprint for commercial uses, such as textbooks, contact the Center.
Presidential
Hillary's just as bad if not worse than Barack because she doesn't rely on small online donors the way Barack does. They both take donations from the same groups, but when most of your money comes from small online donations, then when you govern, those donors will hold you accountable.
KEM: when you make statements like: "GE has funded and supported him 100%" you sound silly and uninformed...
From opensecrets.com
BARACK OBAMA (D)
Top Contributors
This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2008 election cycle. The organizations themselves did not donate , rather the money came from the organization's PAC, its individual members or employees or owners, and those individuals' immediate families. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.
Because of contribution limits, organizations that bundle together many individual contributions are often among the top donors to presidential candidates. These contributions can come from the organization's members or employees (and their families). The organization may support one candidate, or hedge its bets by supporting multiple candidates. Groups with national networks of donors - like EMILY's List and Club for Growth - make for particularly big bundlers.
Goldman Sachs $571,330
University of California $437,236
UBS AG $364,806
JPMorgan Chase & Co $362,207
Citigroup Inc $358,054
National Amusements Inc $320,750
Lehman Brothers $318,647
Google Inc $309,514
Harvard University $309,025
Sidley Austin LLP $294,245
Skadden, Arps et al $270,013
Morgan Stanley $259,876
Time Warner $257,527
Jones Day $250,725
Exelon Corp $236,211
University of Chicago $218,857
Wilmerhale LLP $218,680
Latham & Watkins $218,615
Microsoft Corp $209,242
Stanford University $195,262
Percent of Contributions Coded
Coded $99,081,819 (68%)
Uncoded $47,068,114 (32%)
Total $146,149,933
Why (and How) We Use Donors' Employer/Occupation Information
METHODOLOGY
NOTE: All the numbers on this page are for the 2008 election cycle and based on Federal Election Commission data released electronically on Tuesday, May 20, 2008.
("Help! The numbers don't add up...")
Feel free to distribute or cite this material, but please credit the Center for Responsive Politics. For permission to reprint for commercial uses, such as textbooks, contact the Center.
P R E S I D E N T I A L C A N D I D A T E
Barack Obama (D)
SENATOR FROM ILLINOIS
2008 boosted Obama into the position of the most successful fundraiser, as he continues to pull ahead of Hillary Clinton in the money race every month. He seems to be having no problem appealing to new donors, either. In 2008 he's been raising more than $1 million a day, largely thanks to small online donors. Despite Obama's fundraising success, the two Democrats remain in a tight race for both superdelegates and delegates.
Hi, KEM-
NY and NJ WILL go Dem, regardless. Penn, and Ohio will, too this time, I think. The margins in those states will be less prone to the strategic voter fraud practiced in 00 and 04. The economy's in the tank, and the war has lost it's glow to even those hard working rural voter, who it must be remembered, provide the lion's share of their sons and daughters who are dying over there.
Florida, too, will swing Dem, but ONLY if their delegates are seated. And this is where Hillary shows her true colors. She's more interested in 2012 now than she is in helping her party's nearly presumptive nominee iron out that mess down there.
And yes, KY and WV probably go to McCain, but I was never arguing that they wouldn't. And maybe you never mentioned the west, so my apologies, but for sure NM and AZ are in play this year, possibly MT and NV as well, all of which have been in the Repug column in previous elections.
So, again my prediction is Obama creams McCain.
And btw, couldn't agree with you more about the media-generated assassination flap. I heard her audio from that interview, and can't believ ANYONE in their right mind would construe she was staying in the game waiting for Obama to get knocked off. And I was disappointed Obama allowed his campaign to issue the statement that it did.
My Wife is 71 and she looks younger than Hillary ~lillulu~, she's lots prettier too. She never had any surgery nor took any pills either. Some people don't age as quickly as others. Our daughters have to show ID to be served a drink in a nightclub, one is 42 and the other is 38. You dislike Hillary so much, you say anything of a derogatory nature about her. You are losing any credence you may have buy doing that you know.
Professor Green:
Your article, though rather long, but every bit of it downright riveting and fantastic. If I could vote for an American president from down here in the middle of the Arabian desert, I would. You've sold me Obama by your words—and your experience. I think you would make an excellent running mate!
Also, thank you for your article which in itself is a great service to the American electorate. Alas, it does not get the great exposure it deserves, such as an op-ed in the mainstream media would.
Golly ~lillulu~ are you privey to Hillary's and the Kennedy's private conversations? ___ I would imagine that if what she said was so deplorable, Robert Kenedy's son would have been offended, as would the rest of the Kennedy family.
ASSUME __ assume,___ assume!!!!!
And why do you "assume" anything about what I would say about anything? I offer my opinions here in plain English, you don't have to assume, although it is very obvious you relish doing that about many things and others. Just an observation about you which is so evident.
~MADCOW~ So far Obama has recieved over $134 million in "bundeled" money, which is a cute name for PACs. GE has funded and supported him 100%. Which media networks does GE own? Oh, GE wants 28+ more nuclear power plants built, my my.
jozef May 25th, 2008 3:06 pm
"Goldman Sachs $571,330
University of California $437,236
UBS AG $364,806
JPMorgan Chase & Co $362,207
Citigroup Inc $358,054
National Amusements Inc $320,750
Lehman Brothers $318,647
Google Inc $309,514
Harvard University $309,025
Sidley Austin LLP $294,245
Skadden, Arps et al $270,013
Morgan Stanley $259,876
Time Warner $257,527
Jones Day $250,725
Exelon Corp $236,211
University of Chicago $218,857
Wilmerhale LLP $218,680
Latham & Watkins $218,615
Microsoft Corp $209,242
Stanford University $195,262"
This is SO misleading, First of all, the corporations are not the ones who give the money, it comes from individuals who work for them---who are most likely progessive democrats. And secondly, this amounts to around 6-7 million dollars, which is about a quarter of what Obama makes in ONE month of fund-raising. Most of Obama's money comes from 1.5 million donors who give an average of under a hundred each... truly grass-roots at its finest...
Kem Patrick, only Robert Kennedy Jr supports Hillary, and she should be ashamed of herself for getting him to speak up for her on the subject of assassination.
Now the old gal is playing the victim and saying the Obama aides over-reacted about her assassination statement. She has no shame on how far she will go to try to obtain the presidency. Don't you agree it was in very poor taste for her to even bring assassination up? That wasn't the first time, either. In March of this year Hillary brought up Robert Kennedy's assassination. What she's done amounts to "white speak" for assassination of a black person.
Hillary Clinton is a disgusting person. She loves to keep bringing up "anything can happen" and "Robert Kennedy." She's sending out the message for one of her loyal supporters to step up to the plate and help her out by getting rid of Obama. If Obama had said something so callous and crude, you'd be yelling, screamng, and wanting him censored, and ostracized forever. This is beyond the pale.
This is besides the point, but isn't the old gal around 63 years old now? I wonder why she looks like she's around 40. She must have gone under the knife or has had botox treatments. She must have pre-senile dementia.
QUICK! QUICK! Hillary is the VICTIM here!
To think what happens in a Dem primary is an indicator of the GE is foolhardy. How many McCain supporters swore to God and Country they would NEVER vote for Bush in the GE? Yet, we all know how that story worked out, don't we? They came out and voted for Bush..
West Virginia rarely EVER votes Dem. and this year will be no different. Colorado and Virginia will vote Dem. although McCain creams Clinton in Colorado while Obama beats him there. He also beats him in Wisconsin while again Clinton loses. The chicken little, concern trolling is a bit much...
Hi ~DRIFT~, I forgot to add, a large percentage of the new voters you mentioned voted for Hillary in Pa, Ohio, West "By God" Virginia, Kentucky, Florida and NJ. Then 65% say they won't vote for Obama. __ That's very troublesome. Not good.
What happened when 2 Democrats run against each other in a state is no indicator of what will happen in the general election. Clinton won Kentucky, Arkansas, etc. - will she win those in November? Not a chance in hell. Will New York, California, Massachusetts go Republican? Not a chance in hell. I find that to be the most specious argument for Clinton being the nominee.
The data can be interpreted however you like - Obama won some states that are iffy for the Dems in the fall, so did Clinton. As for polls, in 2004 Kerry was ahead. So we can discount most of them for now.
I do agree that the right despises Clinton and will do anything in its power to stop her winning. McCain's fake moves towards the center--environment, etc--will alienate some of the hard-core religous voters. A Clinton returning to the White House? They will come out in droves.
No Clinton supporter has yet been able to defend to me her constant changing of the rules--her agreeing to MI and FL not counting--then saying that delegates must be seated when she was behind; her saying it's about the delegates, no it's about superdelegates, no it's the popular vote; her implying that caucus states don't count; her giving herself the popular vote counting her votes in FL and MI (and giving Obama 0 in the state, because he wasn't even on the ballot); and so on. I would think even a Clinton supporter would have to agree that this is a bit concerning, and seems to show that for Clinton the desire to win trumps all else.
Just as some people legitimately don't like Obama (which I understand, he was not my first choice) some of us do not like Clinton for reasons that have nothing to do with sexism. The above list is merely one of the reasons that I oppose her. And, yes, I am a feminist--an ardent one--who fears that I will never see a female president in my lifetime. But Clinton is the WRONG president. I have opposed her policies as senator of my home state. Her sponsoring a flag-burning amendement after deciding to run for president just proved further to me that political expediency is her motivating factor. Her support of a "conscience clause" allowing pharmacists to refuse to fill prescriptions for the pill proved to me that she is no reliable friend of choice.
So Clinton and Obama supporters can agree to disagree. But I would think that the one thing that we can agree on is that McCain is worse than either of them. I will never vote for Clinton again as senator in New York, but I would vote for her as president (it would be very hard, mind you, but I would do it). That her supporters are saying that she is more electable because they won't vote for McCain seems to me a sort of blackmail. Obama supporters, of course, have said the same. I still think it's blackmail. And, I'm sorry, but I just cannot see how anyone who truly supports Clinton can want a John McCain in the White House.
Well you are wrong ~DRIFT~ The states I have referred to are the "key or swing" Demo states. They are NOT out west. They are Pennsylvania, Ohio, West Virginia, Florida, Kentucky, New York, NJ. Hillary won those states and some by a large margin.
The states where Obama won and where many new voters showed up, are primarily Republican states. Many of the new voters were Republicans cross voting. The majority will vote for McCain in November.
What you, AGI and many others here seem to be ignoring, is the 65% figure of Democrats who won't vote for Obama in those "key" states. If McCain wins only three of those states, he will be elected. ___ That is my argument.
KEM,
Your whole argument that Obama is unelectable hinges on him being unable to win certain swing states mainly in the rust belt and out West. That is the conventional wisdom from past elections, but where your argument completely falls apart is in its failure to take into account the ENORMOUS increase in voters showing up for the Dem primaries, many of them brought in by Obama to the process for the first time. You also fail to see the TOTAL lack of enthusiasm for McCain on the behalf of Repugs. The Huckster is STILL bringing in large percentages eventhough he's endorsed McCain himself.
I think your wrong. Barring an event like the Rev. Wright episode to the nth degree, Obama CREAMS McCain. Independents swing to him, dems and some repugs as well. This could be another 1932 in the making.
May 26
Electoral Votes: Obama 266 McCain 248 Ties 24
http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Obama/Maps/May26.html
http://politicjock.blogspot.com/
THANK YOU ___ THANK YOU ~SCHEIBER 6923~. __ Today at 10.06am
Those also are FACTS. The sad truth is, Obama is a charlaton and is a terrific orator, a Pied piper actually.
"Honestly, racism/fear of the guy with the Muslim-sounding name is the only thing that immediately comes to mind. If you have another explanation, I'm all ears."
I am beginning to see this argument every timesomeone says they won't or might not vote for Obama. Its Horsefeathers. Sure there are some, but 80-90% have legitimate reservations about the guy.
A. So far he has articulated nothing but strategy, no tactics at all.
B. He says he is a uniter, not a divider...the proof of that would be?
C. Track record? The reason most people question his track record is he really doesn't have one, very thin.
D. Wright...he said at first he had heard none of the things Wright had said, then admitted he had later. He hasn't explained staying in a racist church for 20 years or if he believes the racist dogma espouced by that church.
E. His association with Rezco, Ayers, Dohn and others indicates he has judgement problems in associations.
F. His wifes thesis and speeches don't do a lot to calm the doubts of average Amaericans. And please no "its just soundbite"
G. Change We Can Believe In? Exactly what do we base this belief on except "faith"
There are other things, but this seems enough for people to question Obama's suitability and to ask for answers. Racism...Horsefeathers. Thats going to be the answer if he doesn't or won't answer the legitimate questions coming.
And they are coming. I get a real laugh