Working Women, Where Did We Go So Wrong?
It’s almost the end of National Women’s Month and I have a big confession: I think we women ruined the workplace.
Ouch. I don’t want to feel that way, but take a look. Once upon a time, when a woman took a professional job, she worked a 60-hour week on average. Her boss was a man and she thought she had to prove herself. She didn’t make any more money than the guys who worked 45-hour weeks. She thought this was the glass ceiling, so she started working 65 hours instead. Still, she made no more money. She did, however, get promoted to head of her department. She was the lowest-paid department head in history, so she worked even harder.
Here’s the honest truth: Her boss didn’t even know what she made. He didn’t care, either. She never felt secure enough to negotiate her own raise, so she waited for somebody to notice. They never did. So the extra $10,000 a year that would have made a world of difference to her family never came home. It stayed at the company where it meant absolutely nothing to anybody.
It wasn’t supposed to turn out this way. We were supposed to demand equal pay, not whimper through our year-end review. We were supposed to “smarten” the workday. If your job takes you more than 45 hours a week to complete, you are going to too many meetings that you shouldn’t be at.
We were supposed to create part-time opportunities for smart, professional moms and dads. They could be analysts, administrative people, sales people, doctors, lawyers, who would work mornings or two days a week at the office and more from home.
We were supposed to figure out how to do that. If a boss wants people there for him or her at all hours, we were supposed to hire two people, not make one work the hours of two. We were supposed to see if America would put its money where its mouth is: that family matters. If you’re not related to me, I should not be spending every evening with you.
Obviously, work has cycles. Accountants have to work harder for tax season, yes, retailers work harder for the holidays, everybody works harder when times are tough.
I’m not saying we should all stop working hard, just that we should outlaw 90 percent of the meetings we go to, remove the guests chairs from our offices unless an actual client needs it, and run the office so productively that nobody needs to work nights all the time.
This woman’s road in life has been dour. She does not know she is insecure. She really believes she has to work nights, even though she is perpetuating a system that is terrible for her children. As she became more bitter, she made everybody work longer hours, called more staff meetings where she did all of the talking, insisted that the boss should see her department working the latest. Plus nobody in the neighborhood can stand her anymore, because she thinks that stay-at-home moms are her free babysitters. She calls the seven hours when she leaves her kids with you a “play date.”
I think we should celebrate National Women’s Month with a big apology to our mothers and daughters for blowing the biggest opportunity in history to create real change.
Besides, all our heroine really had to do was what the guys do: bring an extra suit jacket to the office. Drape it on your chair so that it can be seen from the door. Leave the light on. See? Everybody will think you are still there.
Not that I’ve ever done that. But I learned it from my boss.
Monique Doyle Spencer is author of “The Courage Muscle: A Chicken’s Guide to Living with Breast Cancer.”
© 2008 Boston Globe
“Plus nobody in the neighborhood can stand her anymore, because she thinks that stay-at-home moms are her free babysitters.”
I applaud any movement toward equality, but from this sentence, it sounds like many women look down on full-time motherhood. That’s a shame, because from the looks of the latch-key generation, they’ve missed something vital.
I once thought that gender equality meant that women would smarten up the workplace and the political arena. What apparently has happened is that the male-dominated areas have dumbed-down the women’s movement where they intersect.
The extra $10,000 went to the boss and his buddies. Ever notice the hearty ha ha has coming from the conference room when the guys get together? That’s why.
Seriously, once someone in personnel accidentally sent everyone a spreadsheet with salaries and bonuses on it. After three years of being told there was no money for raises, the reality came as quite a shock. The white guys right above us got bonuses bigger than our entire salaries, on top of large regular salaries.
The women, Indians, African-Americans etc. did the real work and got less. Shades of Harold and Kumar. We were on the whole smarter and more productive than most of the white male managment, but our kids did without while their kids went skiing, to Disneyworld etc.
Racism and discrimination are usually linked to robbery.
It’s not nice to fool Mother Nature.
I really dislike the practice of generalizing specific situations to everyone in a group, also noting the “playdate” remark that iam quoted. If you are talking about yourself or your friends, or anecdotal stories about the woman down the street, then say that.
I’m female and have worked under female bosses who answer to men above them. Unless they were naturally ruthless bitches they were totally taken advantage of. In one situation the female art director slaved nights and weekends, sometimes all night long, and had all of us doing the same, for no extra pay or time off. That went on until a male who had only worked there for 6 months confronted the owner of the company and made his case for fair compensation. We got it. It took a man to stand up for our rights in that instance.
Nonsense fluff piece.
I’m experimenting these days with analyzing money as something mainly for the bottom 95%. That is, the ueber-powerful don’t really need money — they control armies (public and now private), politicians, workers, the media, etc. They get things done mainly by the latent threats of force that back up our system. Money is laid out there as a big carrot on the stick to keep the bottom 95% from uprising. And to keep the treadmill turning.
Two-income households are a further example that wealth may be a zero-sum game for the bottom 95%. The more that people work, the less that their money is worth. In many metro areas it takes two incomes just to put a roof over your head.
In addition to demanding cheaper real estate and erradication of the 30-year mortgage, we should be demanding a 32-hour work week.
I don’t know anyone — male or female — that works 60 hours/week. But if such people exist they should be committed to an insane asylum. The more people that drive themselves to the ground, disregard their families, private lives, civic involvement, etc. the less our money/buying-power will be worth — and there will be more economic pressures on the rest of us to do the same. It’s the same with housing. The more people insane enough to go way in over their heads, the larger the bubble inflates.
Time to burst the post-industrial 40 hour/week bubble. Let’s all start working 32 hours max. If you can’t figure out what to do with your extra time, I’ve got some projects in my yard I could use some help on.
“I’m not saying we should all stop working hard, just that we should outlaw 90 percent of the meetings we go to, remove the guests chairs from our offices unless an actual client needs it, and run the office so productively that nobody needs to work nights all the time.”
No, you’ll still work as hard! In most workplaces I’ve been in, working harder just means you get assigned more work, which set’s the performance benchmark for your co-workers, who must work harder, so the high-achiever types work harder yet, raising the bar higher…
And, of course, the “ethic” of keeping your pay secret, leading to wild disparities in pay based on “chump-factor”, where a worker is often grossly underpaid, but never even knows it. This is much bigger than the sex differential.
In capitalism, a person’s labor is supposed to be a bought and sold on a “free market” - but what a peculiar market it is - the going price is a tightly-held secret!
And who benefits from all this? Someone multi millionaire on Wall Street somewhere.
The usual reason for the worker having to keep their pay secret is usually because of supposed resentments.
But, I now work for the US government, everyone knows everyone else’s GS-grade, so everyone knows everyone else’s exact pay - and everyone in a given job makes pretty close to the same pay, and somehow we are pretty productive - compare administrative cost of Government worker-run Medicare to Blue Cross.
Also, the spread in pay between a starting level “Office automation assistant” and the “Center Chief”, is only factor of 5 of so - compared to probably 50 or something in private industry.
The problem isn’t sexism or feminism, it is a runaway work “ethic” where all the benefits all go in one direction.
Ms Spencer is right, “women ruined the workplace” but not in the way she thinks.
The real problem is the number of women in the workplace. According to Susan M. Heathfield at About.com, one in three women were in the labor force back in 1950. In 1998, that number was three out of four in most age groups. That’s right, in the past 50 years we’ve gone from 33% of women in the workplace to about 75%.
The problem is, the workplace can’t absorb that many workers. Oh sure, there are jobs out there or people wouldn’t be doing them. But what kind of jobs are they and how well do they pay? Anyone ever wonder why salaries have been basically flat for the past ten years? Just think, if half (or even a third) of the workforce (men or women) stayed home, how quickly the salaries would go up for those who remained.
Of course, that will never happen. We got ourselves into this situation and there’s no easy way out. Women used to work to bring in a little “extra” money for a vacation or new furniture or to send the kids to a better school. That worked great as long as only a few people did it. When everyone does it, it ruins it for all. The same is true for college education. When everyone is a college graduate, being a graduate no longer means what it used to.
Oh, and by the way, Ms Spencer’s claim that women work 60 hours for the same salary as men working 45 is ridiculous. In most workplaces, everyone is working 60 hours for the same measly salary. The 5-day workweek has become 6 for a lot of people instead of the 4-day week we were promised 40 years ago. But then, you don’t have much bargaining power when the market is full of people willing to work more for less.
jlrush writes
“The problem is, the workplace can’t absorb that many workers. Oh sure, there are jobs out there or people wouldn’t be doing them. But what kind of jobs are they and how well do they pay? Anyone ever wonder why salaries have been basically flat for the past ten years? Just think, if half (or even a third) of the workforce (men or women) stayed home, how quickly the salaries would go up for those who remained.”
Agreed.
The argument has been made before. See www.timesizing.com.
Basically as the system is set up we fight for a job within a scarcity of jobs. Capital has managed the scarcity of jobs. We bid our wages down to survive. The alternative is to restrict the hours that we make available to employers, that is to manage the scarcity of labour.
Yes, the women’s movement blew it. Now instead of a man being able to support a family he works longer hours, comes home to do part of the work that the woman used to do, and his wife works because she has to. Women work harder and men work harder.
jlrush said:
When everyone is a college graduate, being a graduate no longer means what it used to.
Tell me about it. Nowadays, a Bachelor’s Degree has become the equivalent of what a high school diploma was worth when was young.
In other words, not much.
A Master’s Degree or above is your ticket to better wages, but that’s become a pricey commodity as tuition hikes at universities have put such a thing out of reach of the good majority of us. I don’t know, maybe that’s by design so that there will be fewer Master’s Degreed people who can then command higher wages.
Women have been forced into the workplace by higher costs of housing, food and other necessities. More of my generation are staying single or marrying later in life and thus, are self supporting and have no choice but to work. A two income household has become all but a foregone conclusion in this era in which we live. There are few stay-at-home moms left and those that are have husbands that earn enough to support the entire family on one income.
Europeans have it right - they don’t work these insane 60+ hour workweeks that we do. At most, they work a 35 hour workweek and are far more productive than we are here in America. They have far more of a family friendly mentality there. When I was over there, everything closed at 6 p.m. and there was none of this 24 hour economy like we have here. If you found yourself out of something and needing to run to the store after 6, tough. Stick it out until tomorrow morning when the stores re-open.
They believe in families being home together for the evening meal, and the serving of food, whether at home or in a restaurant, is an event in and of itself. You are expected to take your time eating and drinking in order to fully relish your meal. There is none of this rushing through your dinner to hurry off to someplace else or to free up a table for the next customer when eating out. I well remember spending sometimes literally hours in a restaurant, waiting for food being cooked from scratch while noshing on fresh warm bread, real butter and a superb flask of good European wine. And I was in no real hurry to receive my meal while savoring good bread, butter and wine, either.
Americans could do well to learn from their European counterparts. They still believe in the sanctity of family, good food and meals served together at table in the evenings. Americans stuff fast food in their mouths while driving too fast rushing Johnny or Suzy off to some overscheduled activity. Mom drives the minivan and becomes the family taxi, spending all night rushing from one destination to the other after working a crushing 12 hour day and not being able to prepare a good meal and sit down and enjoy it with her overscheduled family.
Is that any way to live?
riverman101, you are a nut ranting political rhetoric. Give some facts not your Republican drool. Thanks.
Whew! Where to begin?… The irony of someone spelling “intelect” wrong so many times SHOULD go without comment… I will do my best…
Riverman DOES have a point, althoug [he] doesnt’ realize it. The goal is to make abortion obsolete; so there isn’t ONE woman having a baby against her better wishes– we would, in order for this to manifest, have to get rid of the idea that babies are miracles. They are not. They are a responsibility. Until evil feminism came about, women had NO say as to their reproductive activities- it is slightly better now- but far from perfect. When this happens, that people realize that almost ANYONE can HAVE children…but few can RAISE them (to respect the Earth, one another, INTELLECT, themselves), the world will be a better place. That is logic.
…It is not to say that Human Beings cannot do “miraculous” things– but every species reproduces, so it isn’t miraculous when Humans do it. Just because you Can doesn’t mean you Should. If only people could think about their actions…
Ok someone is off their meds again………
Can’t we have a logic test here so complete illogical idiots don’t take up so much space? Does anyone read what that nut says?
I hesitate to comment because I do believe Solomon once said, even a fool looks wise if he (or she as the case may be) keeps his mouth shut. That’s paraphrased of course.
I work 20 hours a week, Monday through Thursday, 12 PM to 5 PM. I’m homeschool my kids in the morning. Then, my husband, who works from home, takes over while I go to work. He manages to do his job around the children’s afternoon schedule. We have dinner together as a family every evening (boy do we love our crock pot!). I do have a master’s degree and make a decent wage.
BUT, we have a smallish house by current US standards (1100 sq feet) in a lower middle class/blue collar neighborhood and we only have one car. Our family vacations will never include trips to Disney World or European tours. No cable TV, no Wii systems or playstations. My kids don’t seem to notice the difference though…
We’re not living the “American Dream” but we really have nothing to complain about. It comes down to the choices and what’s important to each family. It may not work for everyone but this is how we do it.
I feel badly for anyone, male or female, who feels they need to work 65 hours a week. I don’t think it would be worth it for me….
Women wanted into the game. Now they are getting screwed by the system just like anyone else. Welcome to the club.
riverman wants a world where we are all slaves.
That’s the impact of his ‘logic’. He’d say 99% of all humans get no say in the world around them and they’d just do what they are told to do. The definition of that is a slave.
Of course, he thinks he’s in the ruling 1%. But, he’s dumb enough to think that if he just puts enough annoying posts out here that the rest of us will all willingly sign up to be his slaves. That makes me doubt he’d finish in the top 1%.
Or, he’s just here to distract us from having any serious discussion. That’s an old tactic.
I read it ~Armybrat~ because it’s hilarious. He should have his own TV program.
Want to really set him off. Say Obama is a fake and a charlaton.
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF! I am a professional women with a master’s degree and almost 30 years in the medical care profession. The state of women in the country has to do with so many women voting against their own interest and their own kind; not the overwork that so many of us have endured in the name of making a way for ourselves and other women who come behind us. I REFUSE TO APOLOGIZE for working as hard as I have only to be badmouthed by other women! I no longer work those kind of hours unless paid on an hourly consultant rate. I REFUSE, I just REFUSE and I mean I REFUSE to work all the holidays so women with children can be home; I REFUSE to continue accept all their lame excuses for not coming to work and thus I end up covering for them; so many of these women have husband - let them stay home for a change and take care of the kids. I REFUSE to listen to unending complaints about everything and nothing and no matter what I or anyone does, there is not good answer, because THEIR lives are a mess! I REFUSE to work for less and be undercut by other woman who put themselves “on sale” to the lowest bidder, but don’t do a very good job and ruin the environment for the rest of us. I REFUSE to volunteer for events (where I don’t have children of my own), just to support the “home” team. I REFUSE to put off my vacation just to accommodate subordinates with children - they NEVER return any of the favors.
I use to and still do, support women who want careers; but they have to do the work, not me. I am tired of being the fall-back gal. Women’s History month needs to be about education of women on their history. We need to do a better job of education women on the efforts and sacrifaces have that have been made to get us to the point we are today. We need to stop calling each other names, expecting perfection and correctness in all things political. We need to call the men on their sexist rhetoric and demand their removal - just like the black people do in this country. Don’t blame me for your sad assessment of the state of women today - all I and most other professional women have ever do is work to hold up our end of the bargain - What have you done lately?
Minimum wage for PART-TIME people should be increased to at least $12 an hour. This way employers will be motivated to hire peole full-time to save money. By the way, minimum wage in Holland, Britain or Germany is already above $12 an hour. In fact South Korea is about to surpass the U.S. in minimum wage… this coming from a country that was ranked as the poorest nation in the world by the UN after the Korean War.
Don’t Pine for Apple Pie
Nest building shouldn’t be so darned tough
‘rags to riches’ may just be in a little trough
like a queen warrior machine running on lean
like a hick up or a bit of gas it will soon pass
so long as we don’t emasculate the missiles of mine
the brave hearted warrior will soon be fine
for motherhood and apple pie, no need to pine
~Alexnosal~___ Let’s see, $12 an hour is about $17,000 a year take home pay. I know many heads of families who are earning $9.50 an hour or less and are not allowed any overtime.
With the current price of food and fuel, medical insurance and other essentials and necessities, $17,000 a year does not go very far. That’s why we have both parents working in so many families. Some also have part time jobs in addition to their full time job, just making enough to feed and house their family. Wait until the price of fuel hits four plus bucks a gallon and it costs $600 a month to heat a house. ___ Savings accounts? In their dreams. And their childrn are often home alone, no money for even an ice cream cone or a day at the local swimming pool and what happens then?
I think I’ll support Hillary. I love all women.
As a woman Hillary does not represent me. My mother echoes the same thing. KEM I’m happy you support women just don’t support the wrong one!
That got him off the topic at hand. And awayyy we go.
With the death of FDR and the passing of the Taft Hardly act the death of the unions began and with it the demise of the middle class in America. A middle class that FDR nearly single handedly created. Now 60 or 70 hour weeks are common, it was the unions who gave us the forty hour week. Now overtime does not have to be paid and you have to work overtime or be fired. Bush did this. We need to bring back the unions to save the middle and working classes. Otherwise angry people working long hours and a few rich people who never work or work when they want is what we will become. Notice that in Europe unions still are strong. And the quality of life is I am told much better. When only the rich can influence the government you will have laws that only benefit the rich. Women who see this as a male/female issue are shooting themselves in the foot. It is a class issue. The above author is not seeing the whole picture.
I just THINK I’ll support her. I might vote for a green pary dude.
$12 an hour at 40 hours a week, $17,000 a year take home pay. __ Expenses on average, family of four:
Rent or house payment: $700 a month.
Groceries: no luxeries $600 a month.
utilities & phone: $450 a month.
Auto expenses & fuel. $$450 a month.
insurance: $200 a month.
Let’s see, that’s a monthly total of $2,400 a month, or $28,800 a year. ___ Momma, get a job, we are $7,400 in the hole and haven’t bought any clothes or school supplies, medecines and we need a set of tires and a tuneup on the van.
What if it’s a single parent? Suppose he or she suffers an injury, or an illness and cannot work for awhile? What if their job is outsourced to China?
It’s a six year old mini-van.
here is an interesting article on UNEARNED PRIVILIGE in your very very sick society.
http://www.dickshovel.com/priv.html
Wow, rockerbabe, so much hostility. The future of our society depends upon how we raise or ignore our children. Ever see the stats about how many we currently have on Ritalin? Hell, one of the main functions of a school nurse now is to give out meds! When you’re old and crossing the street, let’s hope you encounter a good-hearted ‘boyscout,’ rather than a latchkey mugger!
I remember working a job once when some non-smokers were hostile toward smokers. When they tried to join them on their smoke breaks, the supervisor scolded them. Of course, she was a smoker too. Your anger remains me of theirs.
And many more men ARE sharing in child-raising duties. I LOVE the time I get to spend with my children. I know it must be awful for a woman to be forced into a rock and a hard place, while trying to decide whether to go to work or stay home with a sick child because of some butt-hole boss or co-worker who says she should have thought of that before getting pregnant in the first place, or some similar attitude. It does indeed make a case for having an abortion, albeit a kind of twisted one.
It’s also great that you have the option to refuse to be in that position; that is as it should be.
We should ask ourselves why, as a nation, we’ve become so hateful and hardened. We behave and vote like a nation who despises one another: gung ho for vengeance (which we call justice) and war, and miserly when it comes to programs which could help those in need. NOOOO, better to build weapons!
Many European countries have it right. Perhaps every American should be required to live in one for awhile as a part of their education.
Alas, I can dream…
First … I want to say: river*man* - 100,000 sperm & YOU were the fastest?
Second … this article has disturbed me all day. I started working at age 16, forty yrs ago. I have always been a secretary (I hate the word administrative assistant) - & a meeting planner (traveled half the globe) - am now an HR assistant for an international company. I love the work I do.
Over the years I have trained the men who ultimately became my managers. I have heard men during business dinners call women the most vile names - & ultimately those men were promoted. I have seen the money go to the men while women doing the same jobs (& often better work) received far less. I have seen men manipulate situations & st& back & watch women fight amongst themselves, never realizing they were set up. I refuse to treat other women in the work world badly - even if they have done the same to me. I will deal with them privately, & directly, & honestly, & have actually been THANKED for handling situations that way.
One thing that disturbs me is how many responders to this article assume that all women have husbands. I do not. I am fully responsible for my mortgage & all other bills, & to make it these days - I have to periodically remove money from my IRA & pay the penalties. And yet - life is good. I want to make that clear.
In 1970-1971, I worked as a clerk in medical & dental admissions at Ohio State University. There were clear limits on how many females were admitted to medical school. The secretary for legal admissions said her boss - head of admissions for law school - didn’t believe women even BELONGED in higher education.
Pre-med students came to OSU on weekends to interview. I filed the interview reports. The men’s reports talked of academic achievement, character, & the like. The women’s reports described their looks & clothing. “Plain jane type” was a common comment. One day while filing I said - in front of the director of admissions - “I wonder what these women would do if they knew what was in their admissions files.” I was fired the next day.
This was many years ago but I hear from reliable sources at one university in Colorado that it continues to go on.
I don’t want to see women punished or looked down at for being part of the business or academic worlds. There’s enough beratement of everyone for one reason or another to continue on this path.
Where I currently work it’s the men and women at the top who work 24/7 - and it’s mostly men. Some of the men I work with are clearly killing themselves with their schedules.
I’m still disturbed by this article. I’ll figure it out in due time.
Peace / out.
I was wanting to ignore Riverman, but I can no longer help from mentioning that he is posting on the wrong site. Riverman, please move over to your correct site, opus-dei.com. Or perhaps pro-zygotes.com.
As far as his comments on abortion, even now half of the fertilized eggs started are aborted by miscarriage, or, as riverman might put it, by God. So, it appears God is the biggest abortionist of all. And after that, God kills real children by the millions each year, through disease and starvation. So God is the biggest murderer of children as well. That is, if you think God has anything to do with it.
Our greatest threat is over-population of the planet, as there is only so much carrying capacity for civilization. This will mean War for that carrying capacity, if there is scarcity and not enough for all. And we can see the results of retarded civilization even now. In Africa.
So riverman, please don’t post about your anti-abortionism and anti-feminism ON EVERY ISSUE anymore, until the millions of REAL chilren are taken care of, until the environment is safe for all people, until civilization reaches all corners of Earth, until the Republican party is a horrible memory, and until wars for resources and land, like Rwanda and Darfur and Iraq and Israel, are over. Then the sadness and tragedy of abortion can be addressed.
And by the way, feminism leads the way in the understanding of what over-populations means, which is fewer resouces for children brought into the world. So, riverman, until you can go through childbirth, enough about it already. You are an unaffected party, and are a man who obviously wants to retain power over ‘the wimminfolk’.
As for this article on women in the workplace, it is very much correct. That is why Mexican maquiladoras have women as the vast majority of their workers. As does China and Indonesia. Women lower the wage, do not organize, are cowed by the male hierarchy, have no machismo that bucks the system, and are terrorized by the threat of losing the only job they can get in their area. Perfect.
Same has happened here in the States. With far more women workers in the workplace, wages in those areas are depressed. This is the simple Capitalist rule of supply-and-demand; the more people there are, the cheaper and more worth-less are their lives. Also, women do not organize well, unlike males that instinctively tend towards joining groups of their kind, like the pack-hunters they are (see organized sports), to then be able to oppose corporate agendas.
And yet corporations continue to whine about how they are not on an ‘equal footing’ with union organizers in jobs with mostly women workers. Yes, it may be (as the corporate masters say) true that, at least theoretically here in the USA, workers have the ‘freedom’ to leave their jobs. But after the workers leave, the corporation is left with its billions of dollars, and workers are left with nothing. Some equality, eh? Some freedom, eh? The freedom to starve. That’s what Dubya must mean when he talks about freedom.
As far as the premise of the article, just think if all the women quit. Wages would go up. Freeways and infrastructure would be at half-capacity. Rush hours would ease. Of course, this would happen with any large group taken off-line. If all the men quit (probably a good idea!), etc.
But our current system of Capitalism pits everyone against everyone. That is why we need Socialism now. It is the only way forward. Or we will continue to be controlled and ruled by the most corrupt, most vicious among us, like Bush and Cheney, or Mitt Romney or John McCain. We need to find a way out of this quandry.
And as for socialism, we already now ride on socialist roads, use socialist schools, are protected by socialist military, police, courts, jails and fire brigades, We are powered by socialist electricity (in the main) and our lives are maintained by socialist water systems, hospitals, trash collection, and sewers (that is, so far!).
Even corprations are protected by socialist/government copyright laws and patent laws, which, if non-existent, would mean, for example, that a Microsoft Corporation would be worth about a hundred bucks… the cost of one digital copy of its software that then would then be duped endlessly.
And of course, retirees and pesioners, and ex-military members, derive their incomes from scoialist security and pension payments and socialist medicine and Medicare. So we are co-operative in many ways already; ways that Neo-Cons and capitalists and right-wingers and Republicans want to destroy, in order to enrich themselves even more.
What do the Capitalists offer you? More economic pain, which is their gain. Every man for himself. Piracy and buccaneering, that is true pure Capitalism.
And we can see how well it has worked over the last decade in our country, with these corporate Neo-Con Rigtht-wing criminals at the helm.
And we can see how well it has worked in our good neighbor Mexico. And all over the world. Read Naomi Klein’s THE SHOCK DOCTRINE, or the book THE BIG CON by Jonathan Chaitt, and this will become clearer.
We must find the will to harness for the public good the actions of the transnational(good-citizen-of-NO-nation, nor good city-denizen) corporations. We must eliminate the legal pretense of ‘person-hood’ that was wrongly assigned to them in the last Gilded Age (and expanded in our current Gilded Age)
We must demand that they follow justice and fairness and human rights to every worker, women and men alike. And we must definitely prevent the corporate buying of politicians… which actually in a way, is the ultimate expression of Capitalism; every thing, every right, every law, and every person FOR SALE.
Good grief. I’d say we have the “need” to work so much because we’re “greedy” or been sold a bill of goods that has changed our WANTS to NEEDS. Our kids need lessons and trips and tutors. It’s a load of BS. My children joined MY LIFE I did not join theirs. That thinking is completely foreign to parents of my age (mid 30s). It’s a parent’s job to love their children and help their children become good adults, NOT to pay for unending lessons, etc.
RockerBabe: I am also sick of people with kids complaining about those without not “helping” them more at work, etc. My sister is one of those. And God forbid you be a stay at home parent, in my sister’s eyes, those folks have no right to complain about being stressed, etc.
Mamalu: We live in a 985 sq foot home. I teach piano 3 days a week. It is not worth it to me to work full time, either. I would argue that my husband, working a job he loves and me working one that I love, are living the American (or MY American) dream.
How did Riverman find this site? My grandmother had nine children, all breastfed, never worked outside the home and still got breast cancer. Perhaps it was the deoderant?
Is that why women live years longer than men - so they can work for less? We all need to think this over.
JULIANN: Great opening line, and I personally needed a good laugh today!
FVHORN: Excellent post
ROCKER BABE: One problem I have as per your posting is how much it buys into (psychologically) the mindset of divide and conquer which the elites use to turn worker on worker. I can understand your personal frustration with working hard and not wishing to take on others’ compromised performances; but a little compassion might help you to see that ALL workers are ultimately in the same kettle and it’s about to boil over due to so many unfair operating principles (designed to turn one on another in pursuit of the crumb-spoils).
FVHorn: And as for socialism, we already now ride on socialist roads, use socialist schools, are protected by socialist military, police, courts, jails and fire brigades, We are powered by socialist electricity (in the main) and our lives are maintained by socialist water systems, hospitals, trash collection, and sewers (that is, so far!).
AND JESUS SAID LET THERE BE SOCIALISM
AND JESUS SAID LET THERE BE SOCIALISM
AND JESUS SAID LET THERE BE SOCIALISM
Even corprations are protected by socialist/government copyright laws and patent laws, which, if non-existent, would mean, for example, that a Microsoft Corporation would be worth about a hundred bucks… the cost of one digital copy of its software that then would then be duped endlessly.
And of course, retirees and pesioners, and ex-military members, derive their incomes from scoialist security and pension payments and socialist medicine and Medicare. So we are co-operative in many ways already; ways that Neo-Cons and capitalists and right-wingers and Republicans want to destroy, in order to enrich themselves even more.
Pagan capitalists - SO UNGODLY!!
Pagan capitalists - SO UNGODLY!!
Pagan capitalists - SO UNGODLY!!
Capitalism, elitism, and to a lesser extend patriarchy are the great plagues in the US. “enlighten the people, generally…” - TJ
Juliann - What you said.
Rockerbabe - Who will put food in the stores and provide nursing care when you are old if not today’s children? If we do not want the human race to end, we must have new generations.
You don’t have to allow parents to take advantage of you. You can arrange for reciprocity if you help out. Parents make a decision to become parents and are primarily responsible for child care.
Nonetheless, as social beings we are all somewhat responsible for the young, the old, the sick. Do you mind when people are sick and take a sick day? Or retire and get a pension? Childcare for working parents should not be neglected so that it falls chaotically on anyone who happens to be around. It should be organized and reliable.
We are each other’s keepers.
Women are tolerated in the workplace for the same reason as minorities and undocumented immigrants: they work cheap and value relationships and hence don’t complain very much.
If women and other exploited classes of workers put up an orgnaized fuss (otherwise known as organizing a labor unions) they would be dispatched from the workplace at once and told to go on home and tend to the house and caring for the kids.
This will change when women begin to realize both their own gifts and power and (as did the Black Muslims under Malcolm X) become self-reliant in the conduct of their affairs.
They will start their own businesses and they will make sure that they patronize and support other women doing similarly.
They will organize by streets, blocks, and neighborhoods and haunt the meetings of city and county commisions, school boards, and non-voter acountable taxing authorities.
They will speak for and defend the voiceless and powerless becasue they know intimately what that looks like, sounds like, smells like, tastes like and feels like.
The disrespect chronicled by the author and various posters on this thread have within it the seeds to grow the greatest oppoprtuinity for the democratization of power that humanity has ever known.
If every pissed-off and disrespected woman started a blog and emailed all her friends of either gender about it, that could be a beginning to opening the dialog needed to change this situation. If they limited teh TV exp[osure of themselves and their families that could also be fertilizer too make the movement grow. Any takers?
Why is it that the most conservative, reactionary posters are the worst spellers and have a hard time producing an entire sentence, front to back?
Last Friday we celebrated the crucifixion of a man that made the lame to walk and the blind to see. It looks like Satan’s little helper is out to crucify another Savior of humanity.
“Peruvian leaders cry foul as Chávez exports healthcare· 400,000 Latin Americans take up free surgery offer
· Humanitarian schemes are political front, says Lima
Rory Carroll in Caracas and Andres Schipani in La Paz The Guardian, Monday March 24 2008
The plane door opened and the elderly visitors, all visually impaired and in some cases blind, shuffled out slowly and carefully into Venezuela.
Disease, age and poverty had stolen their eyesight but now they were in the land of Hugo Chávez and that was about to change. A scheme called Misión Milagro - Mission Miracle - had flown them here from Peru for free surgery which would transform their lives.”
the contemporary liberal discourse on women’s issue– the politics of blame, is beyond retarded. Again, i will point to the double standard — what other victimized group gets blamed for their own oppression? Only women.
Are immigrants blamed? Are blacks blamed? No.
The liberal double standard on women continues.
I foresee women finally getting tired of being sexualized, victimized, intimidated, and fighting for their sisters. but because misogyny is far more naturalized than racism, it is a longer fight. People who are victimized by race don’t have to fight their family members. Only women do.
Please try and get a clue. It’s so irritating to have to listen to this retrograde bullshit.
Men have failed the world. Men have to answer for their crimes, and the apparently inherent inability to lead. Women must lead. Men are incapable of it.
Riverman,
You have no idea what you are talking about. God’s “logic?” Men’s high logic? Women’s low logic? The great plan for progress? Abortion is an “error?” This is absolute nonsense. It doesn’t even rate a serious response. I suggest the rest of us ignore the guy.
STKM
One could term those River posts pitiful, or very funny. I choose the very funny option. I suppose they could be termed insanity also.
What happens to the logic of a man who has a sex change operation ~Riverman~?
Of course they won’t be able to parrallel park a car anymore, but what about the logic angle? You have some scientific evidence to pass along on that question?
“made everybody work longer hours, called more staff meetings where she did all of the talking”
And this is this woman’s idea of work: calling meetings. Not exactly productive labour, is it? I wonder if it has ever occoured to her that the world will roll on precisely the same if her entire office block was vaporised by the Xists?
This only demonstrates that money and work is a scam designed to keep people distracted and out of trouble. Offices are people warehouses - much like schools - and nothing more.
So if a man takes steroids to raise his testostrotne level, he’ll have more logic. That’s why cops and pro-wrestlers on steroids are so logical. ___ I get it now.
Boy, when CEO’s reach the age of 65 to 72, they may lose all of their logic. That’s what’s wrong with McCain. How old is Cheney?
So if we allow girls at age ten or less to run the country, we’d be alright?
You know what, we might be far better off.
annika said:
“The liberal double standard on women continues.”
Riverman is a liberal???
No ~Eazy~. ___ ~Riverman~ is committed to an institution for the mentally disturbed, or should be if not.
All dictators, serial killers and violent criminals are conservative. I think that includes the criminally insane.
“Why is it that the most conservative, reactionary posters are the worst spellers and have a hard time producing an entire sentence, front to back?”
Because conservatism is stupid, and attracts the stupid.
I totally agree that. Women have suffered from sex discrimination in the Workplace for many years. It can occur in terms of non-monetary rewards, in terms of opportunities, and in terms of on-the-job treatment. I think one book “Sex Discrimination in the Workplace” that I read tells everything: http://dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=92309&ru=279 , and I really think the whole society should change this status.
Their is no greater love then a mothers unselfish love for her children..
If we have a female president, this problem may begin a dramatic change.
I learned early that men and women are equal. Guys may be stronger or faster physically, but that did not mean they were “better” or even smarter. The worth of our existence as living beings is dear to each of us and in that, we are truly equal.
In Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan, I was quite delighted when Adm. Kirk referred to Lt. Saavik as MR. Saavik. My thought was that women had finally been recognized (at least in Star Fleet) as the true equals of men. In the circumstance of military service I would prefer to be called sir and mister as a function of rank rather than make a distinction based on what reproductive organs I have. And since I am half-Japanese and EVERYONE in Japan is referred to as -san as in NeoLotus-san regardless of which set of chromosomes one has I find that much more egalitarian.
Men have failed the world. Men have to answer for their crimes, and the apparently inherent inability to lead. Women must lead. Men are incapable of it.
-annika, give women credit where credit’s due; they have a lot of influence on their men. They can make his life heaven or a living hell. Let’s hope for our sake our leaders have the former rather than the later type.
Angelina Jolie for President!
As I am a woman and a “girlie” girl at that, I am confused as to why I consistently won debates in High school and got A’s in my logic courses in college. Perhaps the make-up I wear has added testosterone?
Higher logics have less sex? What logic is that???
“yes.. miscarriages are gods abortions and the correct ones.. and does no harm to the womans health later on.. why?? because the womans system is shut down and then with the miscarriage no harm…. with abortion her system is set UP to have a baby and suddenly stops .. THAT is what brings the painful bad health later on to women..”
“in fact the studies show the worst health of a woman comes from having no kids and having an abortion in her life… the next worst health is a woman having NO kids .. and the BEST health of a woman comes from have 2 kids”
Riverman, you haven’t the faintest clue what you’re talking about. I’ve had an abortion. I’ve had two children. And I’ve had two miscarriages. One happened at home, in the other instance the baby died at 10 weeks and nothing happened. A month later I had to go into the hospital, because apparently God couldn’t get it right. My health is just fine, thank you.
“starvation is part of this…. this helps bring the strongest and allows the weak to die and then our genes become stronger to bring stronger children and future … same with animals.. survival of the fittest is a great plan for PROGRESS especially if there is reincarnation which most likely there is… then this system is fool proof and perfect !!”
So you are basically advocating that we outlaw abortion and any form of birth control when we are the only species on the planet that has the logic and intellect to control our own biological destiny, breed way too many of us and let starvation and war winnow the gene pool appropriately? You are possibly the most stupid and inhumane person who has ever posted here and I’m done with you.
Dream come true for American women - to be able to be exploited by the money system just like the men. Or to degrade themselves further by joining the military, be part of the killing machine. Yah, das ist der Amerikan dream.
river*man* - rather than continually writing “science says” - please provide references to these scientific tomes of yours. If they are biblically or fundamentalist church based - don’t bother.
Some of us would like to research your “science facts.” Though at the same time we’d like to take your computer away from you and lead you through some fresh air to a hospital.
A Riverman mini Epic
A misty eyed mysogynist
pined for his mother…
like a Noah abandoned in the river
he meandered and he meandered
till he caught his own reflection
by the bushy bullrushes
an epiphany of logic or so it seemed
Ah ha…big MaMa is not big manna
but hey..was Narcissus gay?
Two things distinguish employer & employee:
Wealth and Power.
Employers have these things. Employees don’t.
Why?
Because employers organize their assets and efforts to buy control of news media, law and government. And thereby convert the U.S. workforce to peasantry.
Meanwhile, employees (deluded by corporate owned-media and professional demagogues) waste their time whining and quibbling amongst themselves (see above).
Read the history of the labor movement. Learn that employees only become powerful when they organize the most valuable asset of all: themselves.
God, what a moronic piece. The entry of women in large numbers into the work force in other Western countries didn’t depress wages and extend the work week. Repeal Taft-Hartley, then organise. Demand a living minimum wage. Demand statutory vacation time. Demand single payer health insurance. Don’t blame women.
After awhile, ~Riverman’s~ insane humor gets a little old huh?
When adults are serious and stupid at the same time, it’s usually funny. But there is a limit.
Sounds like women got the same equality as men…to be treated and mistreated like most other employees in the big business wage-slave machine.
joy.
happy now?
I used google to search for information on breast cancer rates among women who have had abortions and/or miscarriages. The sites I found that claim this is true also seem to have an antiabortion bias. Many sites have data supporting the opposite claim. Here is information from medscape:
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Breast Cancer Risk Not Affected by Abortion or Miscarriage CME
News Author: Zosia Chustecka
CME Author: Désirée Lie, MD, MSEd
Disclosures
Release Date: April 25, 2007; Valid for credit through April 25, 2008
Credits Available
Physicians - maximum of 0.25 AMA PRA Category 1 Credit(s)™ for physicians;
Family Physicians - up to 0.25 AAFP Prescribed credit(s) for physicians
April 25, 2007 — Although a full-term pregnancy before the age of 35 years reduces the life-time risk for breast cancer, it appears that prematurely terminated pregnancies — whether by miscarriage or abortion — do not influence the risk for breast cancer. This conclusion, reported in a study published in the April 23 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine, comes from an analysis of data from the Nurses Health Study II (NHSII).
This study, which is still ongoing, began in 1993 with 105,716 women who were aged 29 to 46 years when the study started. For the current analysis, a team of Harvard researchers headed by Karin B. Michels ScD, PhD, from Brigham and Women’s Hospital, in Boston, Massachusetts, examined the data accumulated from 1993 to 2003. They investigated the association between induced or spontaneous abortion and the incidence of breast cancer, and found that there was none.
From all the study participants, 21% reported a history of miscarriage (21,753 women) and 15% reported a history of abortion (16,118 women). During the 10 years of follow-up, 1458 newly diagnosed cases of invasive breast cancer were found.
After adjustment for established breast cancer risks, the incidence of breast cancer was no higher among those women who had had an abortion (hazard ratio [HR], 1.01; 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.88 - 1.17) and was slightly reduced in those who had experienced a miscarriage (HR, 0.89; 95% CI, 0.78 - 1.01).
Rockerbabe is the only sane comment among these 94 comments. Enough said! dlz
That article is written by by strict anti- abortioists, whose followers will murder doctors, nurses and others whom they may disagree with ~Riverman~. It also gives faulty information about breast cancer, you should not be posting that bull shit garbage here.
Riverman-
All your rants hinge on whether there is a “God” or not. Life is much simpler when we just face the fact that there is no God, or if there is, he/it/she has never done anything to improve the lot of the human race, we’re still just as greedy, clueless and (slightly less) ignorant than we have ever been.
That being said we are capable of being truly wonderful, and choice is the only thing that ups our odds of that. Logic is the ability to look at all our options with the best information available to us, and make the best choice we can. What is “best” is where the social experiment of human-ness begins. Fortunately without a “supreme being” ready to smack us down for our poor choices (that’s what childhood was for) we can move on from here.
Now, please stop taking up so much space in this forum. It’s annoying.
river*man* - Why do men have nipples?
Sincerely,
Juliann
Common Dreams - perhaps there should be a generous word limit per person per article. Is that possible? That way there is no censorship based on content.
I like to read what everyone says, even when I don’t agree, but when the comments cannot be accessed without scrolling through numerous off-topic, long, repetitive rants, it is taxing on the eyes, scrolling hand, patience, bandwidth and server space.
~Juliann~ Men’s nipples are for fun sexual foreplay.
They are also useful if a male decides to have a sex change operation and breast implants. I mean, big boobs and no nipples would be dull.
Mother Theresa was the lowest logic of them all - enforcing catholic rules about birth control onto muslim women and forcing those women into lives of physical and economic misery and then earning prizes for mopping the flies off the dying women.
Ok this is my final response to river*man* - I do after all have a life.
(Kem - meet you under the bleachers tonight)
Nope, there’s a game tonight, hows about the hayloft? I’ll take a shower too.
Overtime without pay, since when?
I would say it is high time to slay the “beast”(federal Reserve/IRS)before this world becomes completely insane.
Instead of feeding the “beast” perhaps we should start paying heed to our emotions and focusing on what we want instead of what we don’t want.
I think Paul Bramscher has a valid point. Truly what is abundance and where does it come from? What is more powerful in this world, money or that life force that dwells within each of us all. Instead of slaving for the beast, perhaps it is time for us all to take stock in our most important asset, “ourselves”.
I think it is pretty clear in this thread what women don’t want…..perhaps in order to change it, it is HIGH time to focus on what you DO want!
Sorry for the double post,just had to say more on the subject..
You want too change the system in one day! Half the work force stays home tomorrow..
Back to family,back to the proper priorities, Family First!
No more sixty,seventy hour work weeks for both parents, while children sit in front of television sets playing video games.
Then again perhaps we have become to selfish a people to give up some the toys more money can buy.
Perhaps without relising it we have made a choice,money over family.
Ask yourself,what do you need? Not what do I want?
The babyboom generation was the first generation to have never known life without TV.
We have been brainwashed to become consumers since we were old enough to sit infront of TV.Thats right brainwashed!
Where do think impulse buying comes from. You know the feeling, that feeling that you just can’t leave the store without it.
Conditioning!
Think twice and walk away.
In a 1991 speech, given to the Trilateral commission by David Rockefeller he said:
“We are grateful to the Washington Post, The New York Times, Time magazine and other great publications who directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march toward a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries.”
Senator Barry Goldwater in 79 said “What the trilateralists truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nation-states involved. They believe the abundant materialism they propose to create will overwhelm existing differences. As manager and creators of the system they will rule the future.
They are buying our loyality. They are pacifing the masses with “abundant materialism”.
You are living in a “Matrix” created by corporations.
Ask yourself,what do you need? Not what do I want?
I disagree. When focusing upon what you want, your inner being offers you positive emotion. When you are focusing upon what you need your inner being offers you negative emotion because you are not focused on what you want. You are focused upon the lack of what you want and your inner being knows that which you give thought to is that which you attract. Your inner being knows that you don’t not want the lack; your inner being knows you and what you want, and your inner being is offering you guidance so that you will know the difference.
Focusing upon a solution makes you feel positive emotion. Focusing upon a problem makes you feel negative emotion, and while the differences are subtle, they are very important, for when you are feeling positve emotion, you are attracting into your experience that which you want. When you are feeling negative emotion, you are attracting into your experience that which you do NOT want.
In other words we can defeat the “beast” (Federal Bank/IRS) by focusing on what we “want” not what we “need”!
I highly recommend reading The Law Of Attraction or Ask and it if Given, by Ester and Jerry Hicks.
We are being bombarded each and everyday with things that we don’t want which has taken a toll on us all. It is time to turn it around folks….and yes, we can do it!
For some odd reason, I haven’t seen any of riverman’s posts for the past couple of days. But after reading this thread, I have to assume that he has posted something at least once because of so many mentioning him. Why am I being left out of the opportunity to read his posts?
Although this person obviously is very confused about many things, I still read his posts because his ignorance is astounding. It would always challenge me to try to understand this person, so even though I share none of his opinions, I still like to read what he posts because it’s always so absurd to me.
As for the article, I have a difficult time trying to make a response. One thing that is certain is that the culture a woman lives in has much to do with the issue of women in the workplace. And from what I have seen in life, women are paid less than men for the same work. It also depends on the employer. I had one job where there was no difference in pay between men and women performing the same tasks. The only thing that might create a difference would be the number of years a person had been working there. So someone who had been with the company for 5 years would always be receiving more money because of pay raises over time. The new employee would begin at the starting pay level and if they were good at their job, then their pay would increase.
Here in Southeast Asia, the families are structured in a way that allows women with a newborn child to continue to work, because there is always a family member at home. In well over 90% of the homes, there are three generations living together. This set-up makes it possible for all women to attend a university and get a degree. Once they have the degree, they enter the workforce.
At home, everyone contributes to the family, although the men generally get off a little easier when they come home from work. At anyrate, this type of family living makes it possible for women to pursue their dreams. Of course life is rarely a dream, but all of us are exposed to that fact.
In my experience,woman almost always do more than men. I’m generalizing here but if we are honest with ourselves, women really do more than men - as far as the day to day routines of work, cleaning, cooking, etc… Again, I’m being very general here. I know this isn’t true in all households.
I’m not saying that men don’t contribute in a large way to the family, but when I think of all those little things in life that occur each day, I sure am glad when I have had a girlfriend to cook something and my job is to clean up the kitchen afterwards.
And raising children is a job in itself. I had a sister who’s husband’s job kept him traveling to often that he was unable care for the two kids and do his job. So when my sister came back to the States, I was in a position at the time where I could go with her and my niece and nephew (9 months and a little over 2 years old for my nephew)to give her a hand. She was free to focus on her studies and get her Masters Degree, while I stayed in the small house with the kids to do what all mothers must do - feed, bathe, teach, read to, play with, toilet train, wash diapers, iron, cook, etc… And we had no television, thank goodness.
While it was a rewarding experience for me, it was a lot of work. Little things in themselves but when added up after the entire day, it was a lot of constant work.
My last few years - no, since Reagan - in the USA was a bad time for both sexes if you weren’t in a high paying job. Unions have been slowly eliminated and life in general got worse for both sexes. And it seems from over here to be getting worse.
To finish, think it comes down to an issue of fairness, plain and simple. But I don’t see that happening anytime soon for the normal person. It’s the greed that is the problem. If we could share as if we were one huge family, then everyone’s life would improve. But as long as we continue with this capitalism without a conscience, things aren’t going to get better for men or women that aren’t wealthy already.
And again, the culture is a major factor in the way women are treated. In some places, women are perfectly happy to stay at home and care for the children and husband. It’s when a woman wants to break away from the traditions of the culture that the problems begin.
Just like having or not having a child, working outside of the home is a choice that should be ultimately made by the woman. Of course in any relationship, these questions should be discussed by the man and the woman - or whatever the type of relationship. But in the end, after thoughtful and honest debate or discussion, the woman is the one who must decide what is the best thing to do. And we all make mistakes, nobody is perfect, so some decisions will obviously turn out to have been bad decisions. That’s life and a big part of how we learn if we take an honest look at our choices that have turned out to be bad ones.
Why do women have to get blamed for everything? How come those in power aren’t looked down upon for being exploitative, rather than respected for being unscrupulous? It’s time to start praising honest, hardworking people, male or female, rather than calling them weak or saying it’s their fault that workplaces are how they are. That’s like telling a battered wife that she shouldn’t make her husband so angry.
And another thing, the problem in this country IS NOT women in the workforce, it’s that so much work is getting outsourced to other countries where the big guns can get even more work for even less money. Exploitation hurts everyone, male or female, American or not American. Let’s wake up and start working together for change, not through elected officials, but in our own communities. And stop the finger pointing at the ladies, mmmk?
Paul Bramscher hit the nail on the head with his very accurate appraisal of the world situation. Western I mean.
The one problem is getting people to UNITE.
The days of the placard outside parliament house or at the door of the most hated corporation for the week are over.
The only thing our corporate owners understand is money and power. If we unite and take control of our $$$ and the hour$ we use to make it that’s how we can claw back what these people have stolen from us.
maemae is so right when she asks why are we blaming women?
The corporate owners of the world used Feminism in the seventies as a tool to divide the population and get it working against itself.
They financed magazines such as Ms through agencies like the CIA
It also provided a doubling of the amount of tax being collected which in the case of the USA was used to pay the interest they were owed by whichever administration happened to be in power.
While families were dissolving and children had no direction from the family the system took over in their indoctrination.
We can see it now, if only we understood how we were being manipulated back in the seventies.