Hoover Planned Mass Jailing in 1950
A newly declassified document shows that J. Edgar Hoover, the longtime director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, had a plan to suspend habeas corpus and imprison some 12,000 Americans he suspected of disloyalty.
Hoover sent his plan to the White House on July 7, 1950, 12 days after the Korean War began. It envisioned putting suspect Americans in military prisons.
Hoover wanted President Harry S. Truman to proclaim the mass arrests necessary to “protect the country against treason, espionage and sabotage.” The F.B.I would “apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous” to national security, Hoover’s proposal said. The arrests would be carried out under “a master warrant attached to a list of names” provided by the bureau.
The names were part of an index that Hoover had been compiling for years. “The index now contains approximately twelve thousand individuals, of which approximately ninety-seven per cent are citizens of the United States,” he wrote.
“In order to make effective these apprehensions, the proclamation suspends the Writ of Habeas Corpus,” it said.
Habeas corpus, the right to seek relief from illegal detention, has been a fundamental principle of law for seven centuries. The Bush administration’s decision to hold suspects for years at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has made habeas corpus a contentious issue for Congress and the Supreme Court today.
The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended “unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it.” The plan proposed by Hoover, the head of the F.B.I. from 1924 to 1972, stretched that clause to include “threatened invasion” or “attack upon United States troops in legally occupied territory.”
After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush issued an order that effectively allowed the United States to hold suspects indefinitely without a hearing, a lawyer, or formal charges. In September 2006, Congress passed a law suspending habeas corpus for anyone deemed an “unlawful enemy combatant.”
But the Supreme Court has reaffirmed the right of American citizens to seek a writ of habeas corpus. This month the court heard arguments on whether about 300 foreigners held at Guantánamo Bay had the same rights. It is expected to rule by next summer.
Hoover’s plan was declassified Friday as part of a collection of cold-war documents concerning intelligence issues from 1950 to 1955. The collection makes up a new volume of “The Foreign Relations of the United States,” a series that by law has been published continuously by the State Department since the Civil War.
Hoover’s plan called for “the permanent detention” of the roughly 12,000 suspects at military bases as well as in federal prisons. The F.B.I., he said, had found that the arrests it proposed in New York and California would cause the prisons there to overflow.
So the bureau had arranged for “detention in military facilities of the individuals apprehended” in those states, he wrote.
The prisoners eventually would have had a right to a hearing under the Hoover plan. The hearing board would have been a panel made up of one judge and two citizens. But the hearings “will not be bound by the rules of evidence,” his letter noted.
The only modern precedent for Hoover’s plan was the Palmer Raids of 1920, named after the attorney general at the time. The raids, executed in large part by Hoover’s intelligence division, swept up thousands of people suspected of being communists and radicals.
Previously declassified documents show that the F.B.I.’s “security index” of suspect Americans predated the cold war. In March 1946, Hoover sought the authority to detain Americans “who might be dangerous” if the United States went to war. In August 1948, Attorney General Tom Clark gave the F.B.I. the power to make a master list of such people.
Hoover’s July 1950 letter was addressed to Sidney W. Souers, who had served as the first director of central intelligence and was then a special national-security assistant to Truman. The plan also was sent to the executive secretary of the National Security Council, whose members were the president, the secretary of defense, the secretary of state and the military chiefs.
In September 1950, Congress passed and the president signed a law authorizing the detention of “dangerous radicals” if the president declared a national emergency. Truman did declare such an emergency in December 1950, after China entered the Korean War. But no known evidence suggests he or any other president approved any part of Hoover’s proposal.
Copyright 2007 The New York Times Company
I understand Hoover was a flaming homosexual. Can you imagine waking up and seeing that face in bed next to you?
Truly, a man born ‘before his time’…
Hoover was probably infatuated with Stalin. Really a cautionary tale to anybody who thinks that America and Americans are a breed apart and cannot possibly be ruthless monsters. Look how far Bush took them…
Kissinger in drag.
(Or vice versa, depending on your preferences.)
I always thought Hoover looked pretty in pink.
This disgusting monster trained his subhuman knuckle walking Aryan FBI THUGS with Gestapo and Waffen SS officers he brought to DC after WWII so that when he got turned loose against the Civil Rights Movement (to kill maim and torture) and later any movement for ecomnomic or social justice under COINTELPRO (to kill maim and torture) - he trained his “boys” so the drooling thugs would know how to shove the broom handle up a boy’s ass while hitting him with a cattle broad. “Teach him his place.” Animals. Nothing but animals, “with Jahweh on their side.
Little wonder the South Africans used our “Reservations”, e.g. death camps for Native People, to develop their bantu states. The Israeli’s used the same model for the Palestinians. I’m sure Hoover showed the SA Black Shirts around like a proud daddy.
Under his tutelage, the FBI systematically hounded the leaders of every movement for economic and social justice into silence or suicide, falsely imprisoned them with cooked evidence, planted evidence, or simply by withholding exculpatory evidence, and finally, if all else failed - they just break in at 3am in the morning and hose down the room with automatic weapons and plant the necessary weapons for Huntley Brinkley in the nightly “News”. All to keep the races, the genders, and the classes in their place (slave).
All the monsters won here. The US is an unrepentant genocidal aryan slave empire. Slavering animals like Hoover, McCarthy, Nixon, Mitchell, Meese, and on and on and on - til here we are. Toast.
Now they got the gulags and its all “Legal” just like it was all legal in the Reich. Hoover won. McCarthy won. Hitler won.
Seig Heil. Arbeit Macht Frei.
Pieces of 8.
It’s not over till it’s clover.
The F.B.I would “apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous” to national security
-ah, the ceuntry old hypocracy of dealing with things that happens, prevent things from happening altogether, and a balanced and workable solution in between.
The former gives the chance to let something irriversible/unrepairable happen, the latter have the chance to let control freaks rule with their limited vision of what’s “right”， and the third….I need to go back and read more…..
Hoover’s clone is currently directing Bush administration policy from behind the curtain.
C’MON, TOTO!!!
This is about to happen here, folks, and here are the enabling components of this plan: (a) HR1955/S1959 (The Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Act of 2007), (b) KBR’s direct and indirect influence/control over this piece of legislation, (c) the already completed construction by Halliburton of over 800 detention camps throughout the U.S., capable of housing 20,000 prisoners each, to be operated by FEMA to detain U.S. citizens deemed to be “enemy combatants” or “news informers,” (d) the growth of the “global stabilization professionals” industry (inc. Blackwater) within our borders, and (e) the undoing of our Constitutional rights by the Bush/Cheney administration.
Tell you the absolute truth, I don’t give a crap about Hoover’s plans. No doubt, he had many secrets and was quite obsessed with his vendetta. Thank the Universe his plans never became concrete. On the other hand, this administration, as equally obsessed and with an evil agenda being orchestrated by their MASTERS with the complicity of a cowardly, cow-towing Congress, should have us scared out of our wits and resisting with what power we have left. Be afraid…be very afraid! This administration is at the root of all the supposed terrorism.
It is pretty well established that Hoover was able to stay in office so long because he used the FBI to collect data on members in congress in order to control them. Cheney also has his own private secret service. Maybe that is why many members in congress are so compliant with this administration. Maybe that is why impeachment is off the table.
As a woman, I don’t have that worry KEM PATRICK:
binnnn says: The F.B.I would “apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous” to national security
What do you think happen in Quebec in 1970 when Trudeau brought in the War Measures Act in response to the October Crisis. I think that it was Jean Cretien who suggest that Trudeau make this move. Luckily, it only happened for a very short time.
One needs a crisis to “justify” these things. The Cold War was a manufactured crisis.
So Hover wanted to be Truman’s Cheney.
It is important that this came out. It shows just what the powers-that-be are capable of. They’re after us all regardless of how we’re labeled.
Actually, part of me would like to see them try it. Considering how much of the population is against this admininstration. Maybe that would stir everyone up and make the people realize that we’re all in this together.
Those scumbags may have built the camps for U.S. citizens who have a conscience, but it is likely that they are the ones to be reeducated if they aren’t killed outright or hung. Their biggest mistake was in allowing anyone that could make their mark buy a gun. Now there is a decided surplus of weaponry in the U.S. and no shortage of the abused and disenfranchised to wield it.
I think J. Edger spent too much time alone but what’s a Writ of Habeas Corpus or the Rule of Law in this government?
the economic system is unravelling, and thus the ruling class pursues similar measures in anticipation of massive unrest. the events in new orleans are an instance.
A recent PBS or Booknotes program described the loyalty interviews made by authorities administering the Japanese internment camps during WW II. These interviews were conducted in order to release internees who had applied to be released to work in defense industry factories, where there were labor shortages. The designers of these interviews were tiny-minded; just as Hoover’s FBI had these cockymanie ideas about “loyalty”. Just imagine what is going on in our terrorist gulags today, to measure “loyalty” or “hostility”, via torture or “smart interviews” such as Hoover’s program. Tiny-minded Bush has no problem: “Whoever is not for us, is against us.” Saves a lot of time and trouble, and doesn’t worry about the niceties of habeas corpus. I often wonder whose idea it was to name the Washington, DC headquarters of the FBI after Hoover? I think that if we can erase Benedict Arnold’s patriotism during our war of Independence, we have better reasons to erase Hoover’s name off the FBI building.
vaudree
-One needs a crisis to “justify” these things. The Cold War was a manufactured crisis.
———IMO, its about mind sets. It might sound cruel to some, but maybe it could inspire us to see problems that arose as unavoidable, accept it as plainly as we will get thristy everyday. No one can make perfect decisions on everything every time, and there are plenty who make HUGE mistakes and later realized it. But this is not to say these kind of things happening is okay. Its about what to do in response to these crap happening. How the heck do we look deep enough to find the root of these problems, how do we remember this mistake so when a similar one appears on the horizon, whether it be from another person or about to be committed by our selves, that we can be aware of it and react to it?
In some retrospect I actually thank Bush for making his mistakes, which I have learend alot from. Fuck you ignorance, I don’t care how long it takes but I will chase you down and try to eliminate you until I die. Even if you keep on prevailing over me from day to day
Problem is, it doesn’t surprise us.
LindaS,
What is the source for your camp claim? Last I heard, KBR was awarded a contract to be ready to build detention camps for undocumented immigrants when they were told to build them. Are you saying they’ve been told to build them already? And did you know that KBR is no longer part of Halliburton?
Sources, please.
“The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion…”
That pretty much says it all. No matter how corrupt, criminal or terrorist the government becomes, we have no right to rebel against them. Wasn’t this nation formed from rebellion in the first place? The comments about our current political despots mirroring the tactics of Hoover are right on the money. More and more I believe they do ‘have something’ on the Dems be it coercion, bribes, extortion or threats. I’m sure Pelosi and Reid understand very well what happened to Paul Wellstone or that the only people to receive anthrax letters were Dems opposed to the Patriot Act. The powers that be have made it quite clear they no compunction about destroying anyone who seriously interferes with their plans for a one world government. Just look at what CFR President Richard Haass has to say (and who its members are):
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9903/sovereignty_and_globalisation.html
Or listen to what the late Aaron Russo learned from Nick Rockefeller:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/january2007/290107rockefellergoal.htm
Google Fema prisons TBR. You can also read the presidential direcitves there that Bush has signed into law.
One problem, there are few others to confirm how accurate the articles are. However, if you wish to take the time to visit some of the over 800 prepared prison sites listed, you may discover that indeed they do exist. Some have huge crematoriums, able to ‘process’ up to 10,000 inmates a day.
“The Constitution says habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when in cases of rebellion…”
The Bushites always get everything bass ackward. Now that habeas corpus has been suspended every American citizen has the constitutional right and duty to take part in the rebellion.
I think you got me ‘bass ackward’, whatfools, if you think I’m a Bushite. Did you read past the first couple lines? And I believe habeas corpus has been un-suspended for the time being anyway. But don’t hold your breath on that one.
If it has been suspended, why are prisoners held in prisons, still not being charged with a crime.
Fascists (of whatever nationality) are always ready to suspend freedom of the people for their own agenda; that’s who they are.
Why does it take so long to find out things like this?
Because there is only one Keith Olberman.
Just a historic point… Ever notice how all the power people who cloak themselves in the “true patriot” garb and jabber really have subversive intent — if not outright resentment of American ideals — particularly what used to be civil liberties? It’s true — partriotism is the last resort of societal scoundrels. Hoover was a sicko and would certainly be an everyday player in Bush World. The current White House would be a place he could truly call “home.”
KEM PATRICK
well, see, if you are a person of persuasion of the same sex, as it were, you wouldn’t be bothered by the face. you’d be just glad they were of the same persuasion. (in those days, anyway)
MARYANNSALO
this article was published on ‘yahoo’ yesterday.
What a mean looking, fascist SOB. These thugs seem to think they’re the world’s rulers. They’re still in charge of our government, unfortunately.
WHATFOOLS — I’m LOL for your logic, and love it so. We really need another 20-60 million thinking just like this, how big is your gene pool?
You go dude(det?), I’d like to join the parade and see more of the show.
Forget about what the FBI was doing 60 yrs ago. Talk about what the FBI is doing now. Google:
biometrics & FBI
Hey CoCo, if he were a female with that face, it would bother me to wake up and see it in my bed. Of course I never go to bed with boys.
Have a great Holiday kid.
Here is a link to a timeline of assaults on the Bill of Rights since 2001. A friend sent this link to me and when I first read it, I was amazed. Is it just a coincidence that all of this happened since nine-eleven?
Also keep in mind that another nine-eleven whether carried out from within or not could trigger martial law.
You’ve heard of Patriot Acts 1 and 2 as well as Directive 51 and possibly the Homegrown Terrorism Act but have you heard of this one?
Enacted in October 2006.
John Warner Defense Authorization Act is passed. The act allows a president to declare a public emergency and station US military troops anywhere in America as well as take control of state based national guard units without consent of the governor or other local authorities. The law authorizes presidential deployment of US troops to round-up and detain “potential terrorists”, “illegal aliens” and “disorderly” citizenry.
http://mondoglobo.ning.com:80/group/questionauthority/forum/topic/show?id=1509099%3ATopic%3A2937
Interesting that the mainstream media doesn’t discuss any of this.
Sure have, gives prez the right to suspend the Posse Comitatus Act, ergo Marshall Law, therefore suspension of the Constitution.
Hmmmm, Pakistan was a dry run, you all knew that….
Did not read your link, know it from dealing with these bullshit bills we keep trying to stop and thr spineless, traitorous Congress slams them through, not even a voice vote for the vote call, hate ‘em.
Hoover was the first neocon.
I hope the State Dept. publishes some of the names on the list.
Einstein’s file listed his possible development with mind-control robots.
There are no Jack Bauers. Great power with no accountability breeds gross incompetence. Maybe these guys need to read some Spiderman comics.
That Hoover planned massive arrests is nothing surprising if one is aware of this slimebag’s record. After all, he got “noticed” by organizing the Palmer Raids in 1919 (the biggest unconstitutional mass arrests in US history up to that time) while still a Justice Department bureaucrat. It is somewhat fortunate for history that Truman was occupying the White House at the time. Juvenal’s saying, “Qui custodiet ipsos custodietes?” applies here.
Kem Patrick,
Google is not a source. What is the source of LindaS’s claim that these camps have already been built, as well as the source of your further claims? I hope it isn’t Alex Jones or other right-wing paranoiac.
I have been following the “FEMA Camp” meme since the 1990’s militia movement trafficked in it. Now it’s infected the liberals pretty deeply, and I’m sorry to see so many of you drink that Kool-Aid. But there is a cure, and that is demonstrable evidence, investigative journalism, solid sourcing, etcetera. Not Google. Cite me something useful. The good news is that if you’re mistaken you have more time to act against the construction of such facilities. Don’t just accept some sketchy guy’s claim that it’s too late.
In the meantime:
http://www.publiceye.org/liberty/fema/Fema_0.html
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=95756
and
AlexLawyer,
Are you saying that J. Edgar Hoover started out as a liberal during the Cold War who later became a conservative in reaction to the social upheavals of the 1960’s? Do you even know what a neoconservative is?
Well if that’s what is needed TRB, start investigating if your so concerned. I have personally seen two of the prepared Fema prisons inside and out. if there are 798 others, I couldn’t say, I did write that the the website was questionable.
Sorry I replied to your first question. If you already knew so much about the subject, why did you ask? Did you wish to tell someone else they were stupid kool-aid drinkers or show your superior intellect and knowledge?
Oooh! Shudder. Maybe we should all quit talking, quit posting, hide under our blankets, quit organizing. I do believe in spooks, I do believe in spooks, oh I do I do I do…
The only way out of this, to prevent reverting back to a time in our history in which the anti-American (i.e. anti Bill of Rights) folks were in charge is to exercise our rights to the fullest extent, and encourage our neighbor to do so as well.
It’s bullshit that they couldn’t have jailed everyone they wanted to. The Japanese interment camps were empty by then. This is demoralizing fear-mongering. They didn’t do it because they didn’t want to trigger a new civil war. Fear is a delicate thing for people like that to manage.
Hey TRB. You tell me and everyone else here, that google is not a source and then give us two Googled web sites that are less than worthless talking and opinions.
I googled fema prisons, then scrolled down to the articel titled, “Fema Consentration Camps Locations and Executive Orders. Found it to be very interesting. I can’t swear it’s accurate, or on the other hand, that is is not factual. I did see two of the ones listed in Arizona and they are ready for occupancy. I also read the Presidential executive orders, do you also deny those are not accurate?
I don’t know where you are coming from, but how I read your posts, you attempt to give the impression that you’re the only one worth listening to here. Tell you what, why don’t you check out those 800 sites listed, and then come back and tell us they don’t exist, or the new high fences around 40 acre lots with inward facing barbed and razor wire and newly constructed open bay barracks are a new amusement park, or maybe cat houses.
Don’t know what you’re scared of Paul, nothin about any of this frightens me. I am concerned with what Bush and his gang have done and are doing and with his executive orders. I am concerned about Blackwater and how they perform and why do we need to fund them.
Do you deny we have lost some of our most important Constitutional rights and Bush has openly stated the Constitution was just a G-damn piece of paper, and then he proved he was right about something, by ignoring that piece of paper?
Mandela was jailed for 27 years and that didn’t stop him. History’s great humanitarians, non-violent resistors, etc. went to jail if they had to, and tried to escape if the opportunity arose.
If all these prisons exist — just waiting to be populated with law-abiding people who neglect their own First Amendment — then there’s only a couple options. One is to move to some place like New Zealand. Yesterday. The other is to resist. Still another is to get paralyzed by fear and see what comes out of that.
Fear only leads one astray. One is led by courage or by nothing.
There’s no better patriotism than to use the rights we have.
I appreciate all the angst that I am hearing in this discussion, as I am feeling it, too. However I would encourage us on the left to remain rational and calm, because it is the only real advantage that we have over the right and their hoopla.
What this article helps us to be aware of is the common misperception that the U.S. is a country without faults, that it has been a lone sanctuary for human rights, and is incapable of transgressing the ideals of democracy and freedom. This incident in our history and many like it clearly indicates the ability for the tyrants to rise to positions of power and the danger of relaxing our vigilance against them today.
We need to take action against policies that demean the patriotic freedoms we value in the United States, but the actions need to be pointed, clear and well supported.
When the thick hobnailed boots of the tyrants do land on our backs, and they will, we must make it clear to agressors and bystanders that it is they and not us at fault.
I don’t know why this fear issue came up by a few. Bloggers here wrote what they have learned on the subject and what they believe about the issue, in repsponse to an article about what Hoover attempted and Truman ignored. The crux of the matter is, Bush is now attempting the same thing Hoover suggested. Why accuse us or any of fear? Why assume?
BTW PASTOR, you stated, “When the thick hobnailed boots of tyrants do land on our backs, AND THEY WILL.”
So evidently you believe we do have a rather serious problem here, perhaps with Blackwater type troops, and if we are hauled off, as you say we may be someday, to inform any bystanders that it is not us who are at fault.
I agree with that, but I don’t believe it will do a whole lot of good, it didn’t work with Germany’s SS and Gestapo troops. Bush is followng Hitler’s blueprint to the letter, avoiding the mistakes Hitler made. He already has control of the media and has the Gestapo troops,__ what’s next on the script?
I’m not shaking in fear, or hiding under my bed either, just writing opinions and joining the conversation.
“Now that habeas corpus has been suspended every American citizen has the constitutional right and duty to take part in the rebellion.” (whatfools / nspire)
Hmmm ..
.. we can’t have a rebellion without a government; and in America, we can’t have a government without a president; we have no president, or are at least unable to produce, for consideration, anything that resembles a president; being unable to produce the body that suspended the Constitutional requirement to produce a body, there is no suspender to have suspended; although it is clear that suspension has occurred and logic demands that therefore a suspender must exist, no evidence of this suspender can be found; I think the best we can do now is to start over by electing a president.
Bush has a couple problems that didn’t plague Hitler. Bush lowered the morale/image/standing of America — in our own eyes as well — rather than raised it. Like the orchestrated S&L crisis under King George I, Bush the Still Lesser has “set” the economy for great trouble ahead. Hitler held massive public rallies and clearly had huge popular support. Bush does not.
Both are scoundrels to be sure, but Bush doesn’t enjoy sufficient popular support to do anything of the sort.
The only thing worse than fear-mongering with talk about camps is anyone who dangles it out there in the hopes that a little fear will spur people into action. Fear is an irrational emotion. If people cannot be spurred on by noble pursuits, progress, science, humanistic principles, etc. then they are best left alone.
Kem Patrick,
> I have personally seen two of the prepared Fema prisons inside
> and out.
You have had access to the inside of one of these alleged camps? Which agency were you working for at the time?
Or if you obtained access through, shall we say, unorthodox means, how do you know that they have anything to do with FEMA?
Where is your published article? Crematoria would make this a BIG story. Did I miss something in one of the progressive news magazines?
> If you already knew so much about the subject, why did you ask?
Because LindaS hasn’t provided a source for her claim about KBR (which she probably confused for Halliburton). You did, sort of, cite one source. But I’m not even sure I have the right one. (More about this later.)
> You tell me and everyone else here, that google is not a source
> and then give us two Googled web sites that are less than
> worthless talking and opinions.
Wrong. I did not find them via Google. I knew those sites because I read them pretty often. And Google itself is not a source. You can find sources there, but you can also find a lot of crappy sources. Specifics matter.
And your other claim that the Reynolds article is just an opinion is just plain wrong. It is an analysis of the background to the very thing you are discussing, a background that will help you evaluate the articles you “Google”. But you have to read it first. It’s a really interesting story about the origins of what appears to be an urban legend.
> I googled fema prisons, then scrolled down to the articel titled,
> “Fema Consentration Camps Locations and Executive Orders. Found
> it to be very interesting. I can’t swear it’s accurate, or on
> the other hand, that is is not factual.
If you and I are looking at the same site, that’s from the American Patriot Friends Network. It screams “Patriot Movement” from every pixel. So no, it is not a reliable source. It’s also a very old tale.
More to the point of my original question, that specific page is certainly NOT about the KBR contract, since the page has been up since at least May 24, 2005 ( http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps1.htm ). The contingency contract was reported on at the beginning of 2006, noting that the construction was pending, that is, not begun. Furthermore, reports of such “camps” were being circulated as far back as the Clinton Administration by at least one conspiracist and Y2K-phobe who wrote for WorldNutDaily: http://web.archive.org/web/19990222062208/http://www.mt.net/~watcher/fema5.html He even says that he’s been hearing about these reports “For several years” by 1998. Again, not the KBR contract.
So are you and LindaS confusing “new” KBR facilities for these old lists? This is at the heart of my question.
> I did see two of the ones listed in Arizona and they are ready
> for occupancy. I also read the Presidential executive orders, do
> you also deny those are not accurate?
If Washington already has “800 camps” ready and waiting, why do they need a contract for the rapid construction of new detention facilities?
Also, how do you know the purpose of these “ones” you saw? Has anyone cross-referenced the list of alleged “FEMA camps” with public documentation of facilities operated by the many Federal and state agencies? Maybe some of them are regular old prisons, or POW camps, or immigration detention centers like the Hutto Detention Center.
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants/detention/hutto.html It’s interesting that you found them in Arizona, by the way.
The way the ICE is treating people has been a travesty, a documented travesty. It is something tangible that activists can work on here and now. Working for the protection of immigrants’ rights and improvements in government policy in that area could also diminish the threat of large-scale detention facilities. Constructive action is better than forwarding scary campfire tales.
Also note that the list of Executive Orders listed on the page I think you’re referring to ends with one by Gerald Ford. I assure you that he isn’t much of a threat these days. But this also goes to show you that to those who look for things to be scared of, no “news” is ever out of date, and every past policy or thought experiment or readiness exercise remains in active, real-world implementation forever.
binnnn - there is a difference between a mistake and intention - and not in their immediate affect on us. With a mistake, there us usually a fairly immediate move to either try to fix it or to make sure no one traces it to you. With intention, someone profits and they try to make darn sure that no one traces either the action or the bounty to them.
iwarrior says: It is important that this came out. It shows just what the powers-that-be are capable of.
We know what they are capable of. Seems that for every time they get there way, there are times we don’t know about where they didn’t. Hoover tried and failed to get this (which is why we didn’t know about it until now).
But Hoover did not operate in a vacuum. Who was he associated with? Who were his disciples? Who did he pass his ideas along to?
What we will learn next is the famous names on the list (either a famous person or an ordinary person with famous offspring). What we won’t get, except with vagues guess with the names we are given and what we know about them, is the full criteria for inclusion on this list.
Think of what you will know 50 years after Cheney dies - if you are still around to hear it.
jchotch says: A recent PBS or Booknotes program described the loyalty interviews made by authorities administering the Japanese internment camps during WW II. These interviews were conducted in order to release internees who had applied to be released to work in defense industry factories, where there were labor shortages.
I knew that Japanese Canadians were interned during WWII in Canada but only suspected strongly that it also happened in the US. David Suzuki was one of the Canadians interned.
David T. Suzuki and his twin sister Marcia were born in Vancouver, B.C. in 1936. His early years were spent living with his family in the back of their dry-cleaning business in Marpole, a primarily white neighbourhood. His father Kaoru “Carr” Suzuki, an avid outdoorsman, helped shape Suzuki’s interest in nature early by taking his son on camping and fishing trips.
His life was uprooted in 1942 when the Suzuki family was sent to an internment camp following the Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbour. The next three years of Suzuki’s life were spent living in an abandoned hotel in a former gold rush town. On top of the indignities he and his family experienced, he also became a target for other Japanese youth for his refusal to disavow his Canadian roots. …
(from “Did You Know) In April 1942, Suzuki’s father was sent to a labour camp in Solsqua, a small town in B.C.’s interior. Two months later the government sold the family’s dry-cleaning business and sent Suzuki, his mother and two sisters to an internment camp in Slocan City, a ghost town several hundred kilometres away from his father. His younger sister Dawn was born in an abandoned hotel where they lived for the next three years.
http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/suzuki-david.html
Ireneus says: There are no Jack Bauers.
Even Kiefer Sutherland is no Jack Bauer. Have you heard about Kiefer Sutherland’s famous grandfather - Tommy Douglas? Know that they read every word!
RCMP spies shadowed Prairie politician Tommy Douglas for more than three decades, according to documents obtained by the Canadian Press.
A newly declassified file on Douglas shows the Mounties attended his speeches, dissected his published articles and, during one Parliament Hill demonstration, eavesdropped on a private conversation. …
The 1,142-page dossier, spanning nine volumes, was obtained by the Canadian Press from Library and Archives Canada under the Access to Information Act.
Personal files compiled by the RCMP’s security and intelligence branch can be released through the access law 20 years after a subject’s death. Douglas died of cancer at age 81 in February 1986. …
In late 1964, the RCMP received a letter alleging that Douglas had once been an active member of the Communist party at the University of Chicago, where he had done postgraduate studies.
A top secret memo from a senior RCMP security officer to the force’s deputy commissioner of operations indicates there was no reliable information to substantiate the tip.
“We have never asked the FBI for information on the matter because of Douglas’ position as leader of a national political party.”
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/12/17/douglas-rcmp.html
David Suzuki (number 5 on the list of Greatest Canadians) told his supporters to vote for Tommy Douglas (who became the greatest Canadian. The RCMP also spied on John Lennon and Yoko Ono.
Everyone else, son wants on computer. Hope Santa is good to you - ie, you get one of these books everyone keeps talking about - don’t OD on chips and dip, eh.
Detention camps… see the Village Voice, Sept 4 2002… just one of MANY accounts.
Search Operation “Granite Shadow”.
No wonder Hoover was a homo. He had a face that not even a mother could love! What a freaking monster! I can smell his hemorrhoid breath just looking at the picture. Man this guy was ugly inside and out! He’s a perfect match for Barbara Bush! Maybe we should dig him up and get them together! The Blob meets Jabba the Hutt.
Ahhhh free speech. I get high from it’s very existence.
Use it or Loose It.
Well PAUL, from reading your opinions, we don’t have a very serious problem with Bush then. And once again, you bring up the fear factor. Why? The only one I see using that terminology is you.
I must disagree with you with one of your comments. I do not believe fear is always an irrational emotion. For example, when your aircraft has been hit with 37mm cannon shells, two of four engines are out, a wing is on fire, over a jungle, at night, and several of your men are dead or dying, fear is a perfectly rational emotion, but one can still function properly regardless ___ believe me.
Personally, without feeling any fear or attempting to instill any fear, I’m writing about what Bush is doing what he has done, __ and there MAY be Fema prisons prepared for a lot of people. What people? If it is a lie, then why doesn’t someone prove to all of us it is a lie? Those websites TRB offered were just bloggers from the far right, saying they don’t exist. Someone is wrong. Whom do you believe Paul? I don’t know who to believe, I’m skeptical of the 800 prepared prisons, but believe it MAY be a fact.
I do wonder why so many who post on this site, often state that Bush may inact his Presidential Directives and cancell the next election? Of course that’s guessing, but Bush has written Presidential Directives where he could do that and Congress okayed them. They are law. Why would he do that?
Why did he lie about the WMDs in Iraq? Why did he lie about Iran’s nuclear program? Why do so many here believe he is attempting to take full ocntrol of our country and damn the Constitution. Which he has publically done.
I agree with you PAUL, Bush is no Hitler, he’s just been following Hitler’s script to the best of his ability. It’s in his genes is it not? Preston Bush, who supported Hitler with tons of money from the mid 1930s and all through the Second World War. He also attempted to overthrow President Roosevelt with a military coup.
I dunno Paul, maybe you could clarify your comments, you sound as if we are overly concered with the Bush administration and the things he has done and can do. If you are correct, we might as well have another like him in the White House next time. And please, get off the fear issue. Attempting to learn the truths, sharing opinions and websites is not fear.
Sounds a bit like what Saddam Hussien did to the Iraqi’s..
Wow GW Bush is just like Saddam Hussien, I bet he was just jealous of him and thats why he invaded Iraq!!!!!!!!!!
I first heard about FEMA camps being proposed under Oliver North in the Iran Contra hearings in 1988 or so. The presiding congressmen said, “Let’s take that question into closed chambers,” so we never got to hear it discussed. (Sorry, no citation, just memory of the video.) I didn’t hardly believe it then. That was the first time anybody I knew had heard of FEMA at all.
I’m less hopeful now perhaps (though Reagan had the whole “global nuclear war” thing that kept my late teen years cheerful.) I do think it worth noting that a plan is not necessarily an intent. The military probably has plans for alien invasion from Mars, or all-out war on Canada. Some plans get closer to implementation then others. This article (and the FEMA stories from the ’80’s) isn’t very clear on how close this came to use.
Hoover did though, have personal experience with actually using this tactic in the Palmer raids that kick-started his whole wretched carrier. I’d believe he was pretty serious about doing it again. What a difference that would have made in US history since 1950.
COLDWARBABY
first it was roundabout, then richard posner, now you with this petition. who’s behind it? really.
KEM PATRICK
thanks for the holiday wishes. there’s more about this on: www.globalresearch.ca in the topic: police state america. don’t worry, i’ll come and rescue you if those naughty people take you away. we should get some carrier pigeons. they can’t eavesdrop on them……………
Until the present age, Hoover was the closest this country has ever come to having its own home-grown Himmler or Beria.
“At Stanford and other leading research institutions, scientists are already scanning the brain—not just for defects, disease and injury, but for patterns of thought and emotion, meaningful precursors of behavior, and the mechanics of learning.”
That’s only the beginning. You can read the article at:
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2004/janfeb/features/neuroethics.html#topofpage
It’s like the old saying goes ‘Absolute power corrupts absolutely’! At one time, J Edgar was one of the most powerful men in this country. Presidents didn’t seem to think they could do without him or he blackmailed some of them into keeping him the head of the FBI. Which ever the case may be. But, we now know that he was just another right wing nut case. Who was corrupted by his own paranoid ideas. He was alive in the era when people saw a Communist behind every bush. Any behavior that was different from the norm was termed as Communist. As I remember it was a ‘witch hunt’ in the later 40’s and early 50’s. I was a teenager in the 50’s. Many a persons good name was ruined by these ‘fear mongers’. The same thing is going on today with the right wing pundits who try and foment hate for the Arab community (some of them conclude they are all terrorist’s). They spend their time trying to terrorize people into giving up their rights for some semblance of security. It’s the same old scam. Just a different group we are suppose to hate and fear. It’s like FDR said in a speech. ‘We have nothing to fear but fear itself’. It doesn’t strange things to people when they are constantly being worked into a frenzy by the purveyors of hate and fear. People learn to recognize it for what it is and avoid it. Because that type of charlatan is always around trying to do his dirty deed.
Habeas corpus suspended? Check!
Detention camp construction in progress? Check!
We’re ready. J. Edgar would be proud to see his dream come to fruition. Except this time they’ll have to round up significantly more than 12,000 of us.
I know that the hobnailed boots of the tyrants are marching, because I have been victim of their actions. I have been fired from two jobs due to the machinations of the Institute of Religion and Democracy. I know of others like me that have faced the reprisals of the Christian militant right. Some of the incidents have been documented on this very website.
What I am saying is that we must be careful not to raise spurious claims to inspire fear of activities that are not happening or might not happen. Even the documented activities are doubted by the common citizenry of the United States, because they believe everything FOX news tells them. Fear is the irrational motivator of the Right. PAUL BRAMSCHER is absolutely right on that point.
For example, I do not believe that Bush will suspend elections without a major event like 9/11 to justify it. The person Bush is not that ruthless and tyrannical. The political machine that supports Bush is that ruthless, but they recognize that it is easier to elect a similar president, than it is to stage a coupe, bloodless or not in the United States.
We ought to do everything within our power to make the Left seem powerful and reasonable. For example, let’s elect Dennis Kucinich as president, or at least a Democrat. The Christian Right tells us that the Golden Compass should be boycotted. Let’s make it the top grossing film of all history. I have already taken my family. Let’s convince Congress to set a solid timeline for the removal of troops from Afghanistan and Iraq. We need to offer concrete reasonable courses of action for the citizenry of the United States to follow, and they will follow.
On a different note, I am getting tired of all the references to Hoover’s attractiveness and possible homosexuality. I don’t care if Hoover was ugly or handsome. That is beside the point of the discussion. My gay brother is better looking than most of the young men I know, and it is not for the lack of availibility of young women who want to date him that he is dating his equally handsome boyfriend. So grow up! And stick to the issues.
It says much about the United States of America that it permitted a malignant freak like J Edgar Hoover to head its top federal police agency for so many years, doesn’t it?
RE: FEMA camps
Although there is evidence of a non-official nature out there on the web via google, there isn’t going to be much ‘official’ info about it. That is volatile info, but it’s one of those open secrets.. if you want to find out about it you certainly can, you just have to do your homework.
Here’s another excerpt from an article about it from globalresearch.ca:
‘The Cheney/Bush administration has a plan which would accommodate the detention of large numbers of American citizens during times of emergency.
The plan is called REX 84, short for Readiness Exercise 1984. Through Rex-84 an undisclosed number of concentration camps were set in operation throughout the United States, for internment of dissidents and others potentially harmful to the state.
The Rex 84 Program was originally established on the reasoning that if a “mass exodus” of illegal aliens crossed the Mexican/US border, they would be quickly rounded up and detained in detention centers by FEMA.
Existence of the Rex 84 plan was first revealed during the Iran-Contra Hearings in 1987, and subsequently reported by the Miami Herald on July 5, 1987
” These camps are to be operated by FEMA should martial law need to be implemented in the United States and all it would take is a presidential signature on a proclamation and the attorney general’s signature on a warrant to which a list of names is attached.”
And there you have it ~ the real purpose of FEMA is to not only protect the government but to be its principal vehicle for martial law.’
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=ROL20060820&articleId=3010
I don’t put anything past this Administration. There are already 800,000 names on “the List” as it is. There is enough capacity to put all of them and more in those camps. From what I’ve read many of the camps are also outfitted with ovens/creamatories. And considering the Bush family history of giving material support to the Nazis/Hitler I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of people either during this Administration or the next go “up in smoke”. Hell I doubt there will be another administration because before the next election the power grab will become a power smash and grab.. Bush/Cheney do not want to lose a single iota of their chokehold on America and the world.
I’m sure if there is still such a thing as releasing de-classified documents in the future we’ll be able to read all about REX-84 in about 50 years when it’s too late to prosecute those who made it possible.
Maybe we are tired of your lectures PASTOR, if someone wished to interject what they consider to be humorous comments that’s their business. Grow up and don’t be so sure of yourself. For example, you are so certain Bush is incapable of inacting his presidential directives, that’s pretty childish thinking. You mght read them and see how easy it would be for him to do so.
Ugliness and sexual preferences are not the issue here. This is the 22 Century and to each his own. What matters is whether this is just a story about Hoover’s rantings and Truman’s deaf ears or something more sinister. PM William Lyon Mackenzie King used to write love sonnets to his dog, attend seannces so that his dead mother could advise him on government policy, hated jews and thought (when he first met him in person) that Adolf Hilter had kind eyes. And, despite all this, he still led Canada into WWII before Roosevelt did the Americans. Is the Hoover thing fluff like Mackenzie King seeking advice from his dead mother and Hoover possibly being gay or serious stuff like Mackenzie Kings attitude towards Jews?
Hoover was around longer than Truman.
KEM PATRICK says: Personally, without feeling any fear or attempting to instill any fear, I’m writing about what Bush is doing what he has done, __ and there MAY be Fema prisons prepared for a lot of people. What people? If it is a lie, then why doesn’t someone prove to all of us it is a lie?
It is hard to prove that something doesn’t exist because just because you can’t find something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. There are all sorts of empty buildings and empty fields that can be put to that use - and how ever so many property holdings/agreements with other countries that the US has all over the world. With WMD, the selling and buying of the raw materials have been monitored and, in many cases, special facilities have to be built - so it is much easier to prove that one is lying about that. But a building can be used for anything.
We do know the pattern, though. The first ones jailed throughout history are those people are least likely to care about or fight on behalf of.
Baby Bloc says: The military probably has plans for alien invasion from Mars, or all-out war on Canada.
Of course they did. And, if we know about this one, the Americans probably have a new one by now!
It was drawn up and approved by the War Department in 1930, then updated in 1934 and 1935. It was declassified in 1974 and the word “SECRET” crossed out with a heavy pencil.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412.html
Baby Bloc says: I first heard about FEMA camps being proposed under Oliver North in the Iran Contra hearings in 1988 or so.
Did the idea begin with Oliver North or was he just trying to revive it? Seems with these new revelations concerning Hoover, that North may have be using some version of Hoover’s original ideas. That date!
Baby Bloc says: I’m less hopeful now perhaps (though Reagan had the whole “global nuclear war” thing that kept my late teen years cheerful.) I do think it worth noting that a plan is not necessarily an intent.
So you mention Reagan AND the mid 80’s - seems like there were a lot of right-winged governments in power at the time - and it has been established, already, that Schreiber helped Mulroney win the leadership of the Progressive Conservatives from the more moderate Joe Clark. Read the following?
But here’s Karlheinz Schreiber: “The story is the payback for money to help someone come to power.” Replete with details: How Franz Josef Strauss dispatched him from Germany to seed right-wingers around the world and eject fakes such as Joe Clark. And where they plotted: the Ritz! They sat around, “And everybody got something,” once Brian took power. Not just contracts but free trade and the rest. We still live with the results. This isn’t worth inquiring into? Watergate was just a piddling break-in.
http://rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=65642
And it goes to my main point concerning Hoover - how far does this thing go beyond Hoover and Truman? The right, if they act like they have on previous such occasions, will say that it doesn’t - that there is nothing there. Every once in a while it may be the truth - but is it this time?
I notice that the emphasis in this thread is on good old J. Edgar, certainly a guy to keep your eye on. However, most seem to miss loveable old Harry Truman, whose administration was the beginning of our national security state and the orginator of the left oppression which came to be known as “McCarthyism”. Note above that, along with requiring all federal employees to swear a loyalty oath, he had his attorney general, Tom Clark, order the FBI to make up a blacklist for investigation and possible detention. Hoover was Truman’s SOB as he had been for every president since the 1920 Palmer Raids and would be until (except his enemy, JFK) Johnson. Old Edgar was certainly every inch his own man. He met Clyde Tolson sometime in the thirties, an attractive young recruit in FBI boot camp, and within two years, dear Clyde was effectively second-in-command of the FBI and was openly living with him. They lived together until Edgar’s death, more than thirty years, and in all that time, no one (no one) dared take pubic notice of what in those days might have been taken as a fairly contoversial relationship.
It’s easy to make fun of Hoover’s closeted gayness…but it is not only a cheap shot, it’s homophobic and reduces Hoover to a caricature.
I’m sure that part of Hoover’s extremism had to do with his repression of his sexual orientation, which really makes him a poster child for people being able to be open about sexuality.
But it is a mistake to make that the focus of one’s criticism or analysis of Hoover.
I don’t believe anyone did make that the focus of Hoover. ___ He was pretty ugly however,___ inside and out.
coco, that is long. Will try to get son to reconnect the printer cord.
Twister22 - holy shit! And there is that date again - 1987! This is a strong indication that Hoover’s ideas were passed on and they served some purpose. The list of name part got me.
And the pattern - presumably just for the Mexicans - for starters. Wonder why there is no law against some of the things Lou Dobbs says. Maybe fanning the flames of racism serves as a smoke screen for other things.
Twister22 says:” These camps are to be operated by FEMA should martial law need to be implemented
“Martial Law” strikes me as a presumably emergency measure. How serious of a threat is needed for its implementation? Seems that there is a need to convince the population, initially, that they are, in fact, under threat.
Gail, heard about the MRI thing before. CBC’s Marketplace had a special on it called “The Science of Shopping” which was originally broadcast on December 2002. And note that advertisers make use of the same marketing science to sell Coke as they do Guilliani. Isn’t it odd that marketing companies can use these MRI’s for research while some in the US don’t have any access to Health Care at all!
tumbleweed says: At one time, J Edgar was one of the most powerful men in this country. Presidents didn’t seem to think they could do without him or he blackmailed some of them into keeping him the head of the FBI.
Or he had powerful friends - and it may be multiple choice!
tumbleweed says: He was alive in the era when people saw a Communist behind every bush. Any behavior that was different from the norm was termed as Communist. As I remember it was a ‘witch hunt’ in the later 40’s and early 50’s. I was a teenager in the 50’s. Many a persons good name was ruined by these ‘fear mongers’.
Those with their “good name ruined” fell into two camps - the powerless who were easily sacrificed and created an atmosphere of shock and fear (in that people thought that they were being infiltrated by the enemy). And then there were those who were trying to speak out against what the American administration was doing and got the Valarie Plame treatment. BTW - do you know that the US government tried to discredit Ralph Nader by trying to spread the rumour that he was gay?
“We the people of the United States / In order to form a more perfect union / Stop pretending that you’ve never been bad /You’re never wrong and you’ve never been dirty / You’re such a saint, that ain’t the way we see you / You want to rule us with an iron hand / You change the lyrics and become Big Brother / This ain’t Russia, you ain’t my Dad or Mother” - Alice Cooper
During her interview on The Hour, Naomi Klein was talking about 9-11 and her latest book and said that Guilliani was not her daddy. She was insinuating that the US was trying to turn Americans into scared children and portray the Administration as the protective parents of the nation.
TonyVodvarka says: and in all that time, no one (no one) dared take pubic notice of what in those days might have been taken as a fairly contoversial relationship.
So you are saying that this is an example of Hoover’s powerfulness (and the fear others had of him) that no one would say anything officially about this?
It feels strange that reference to this article was taken off the main page.
It is back on the main page now, so ignore this.
I’ll never forget that face, a cross of a Bull Dog and a Pig.
I saw him sitting next to my Childhood nemesis, Big George Bush, on the Shadow Chartered Bus the day JFK Was killed.
I found out from FBI memo that Bush called the FBI a few hours earlier… Nobody in the research community seems to know why he called but I think it is obvious that lead to their meeting on the Shadow Hollywood Hootenanny Bus with the 2nd Oswald in custody of two Dallas Cops…. That 2nd Oswald was also witnessed by the usher at the Texas Theater who saw the police take him out the side door while the shorter Oswald that Ruby killed was taken out the front door where he was filmed.
I told the FBI that I believe that the taller Oswald look-a-like was killed that night where those of us who stayed on the bus ended up at the Pines Motel, right next door to the fenced in National Guard Armory… Way out in the sticks near Point Blank Texas and the Sam Houston National Forest… I thought I would be killed too. It was a long night of celebration which ended after the Shotgun Blasts.
So far everyone including the researchers have ignored these facts.
Why you may ask? My educated guess it is called Cover-Up from the tippy top.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.. truth has its own power.
Do you ever wonder why Bush was never called before the Warren Commission about the 2 FBI memos about Bush and The JFK assassination?
Probably because his old friend Allen Dulles was in charge of the Secret stuff of the WC.
Jim Glover, did you see the video - “Death in Memphis: The Mysterious Assassination of Martin Luther King”:
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id887.html
Seems as if there never was a thorough investigation in this.
Dear vaudree, Although there were plenty of people who hated Hoover, no news organization, large of small, touched this subject until well after his death. This was not any sort of closeted thing, Clyde was taken from boot camp and installed in Hoover’s home, became a major FBI power, within two years. It certainly was common knowledge in government, one of the Nixon White House tapes catches Tricky Dick referring to him as, “that old cocks…er”. Well-found legend has it that the “Mafia” had photos of him, dressed in a black chiffon dress, giving oral sex. The existence of this photo is supposed to explain Hoover’s lifelong inability to recognize the existence of organized crime.
Vaudree said:
‘“Martial Law” strikes me as a presumably emergency measure. How serious of a threat is needed for its implementation? Seems that there is a need to convince the population, initially, that they are, in fact, under threat.’
Well according to the Shrub we are constantly under threat by ‘Al-Quaeda’, Iran, and presumably by that guy in the red suit (Satan or Santa?).. what color threat level is it today? Orange? Yellow? Red?
I don’t want there to be a threat that causes the imposition of martial law to come about, but what with agents provocateurs running rampant at protests, CIA funded ‘counter terrorism’ groups, and who knows what else, it’s just a matter of picking someone to do the (inside) job.
TonyVodvarka says: Dear vaudree, Although there were plenty of people who hated Hoover, no news organization, large of small, touched this subject until well after his death.
So you are saying is that Hoover had the power to squash anyone who looked too deep into what he was doing both inside and outside of the FBI? That it is not so much that he was gay but that he was not outed which is the important thing? The Mafia didn’t seem too afraid of Hoover. Though, if the deal for pretending they did not exist extends not only in keeping their own mouths shut but also lending a bit of their muscle in keeping other mouths shut, seems like both would win.
Twister - you mean that system of pretty colours? Heard one joke that Canada was so boring that our color threat system consisted of five shades of grey.
For Christmas, Stan’s colour coded alert system (third from bottom):
http://www.airfarce.com/video/040116.html
Well Vaudree,
It is gonna take a new president who wants to get to the bottom of all this to open up the records that are still sealed.
while I was investigating JFK case in LA and talking about what I saw here and there, the cousin of my wife and singing partner Jean Ray, Stephanie Ray, told me that they were related to James Earl Ray… he even resembles Jean’s Dad and Uncle.
Jean Died from cancer last August but she told me before she died that if She knew about that she would hide under a rock …so I told her that James was set up just like Oswald and Jean understood that was the point…to hide or keep quiet about what I was discovering about JFK. Family secrets are the easiest to Keep and Dulles and Hoover knew that better than I did while I was trying to figure it all out. I think James Earl Ray was the perfect patsy to keep Jean from talkin too much even though she didn’t seem to be aware of the family connection until I told her.. but it was there and made me feel not to trust Jean because at the time I was told about the connection, I thought James Earl Ray might have even been the killer of King. I still don’t know for sure if what Stephanie Ray told me was true or not but there were many times that the CIA tried to separate us and make us suspicious of each other.
Now Hoover and Dulles had to know that I was on the bus in Texas and saw a lot and they knew that Jean, who was separated from me at certain critical times could not be trusted because we were married. So pickin James Earl Ray as the patsy helps keep the cover-up of JFK too.
Now My friend Phil Ochs also was sent to Texas to observe the JFK operation and was in Dealy plaza being filmed most likely by a british cameraman.
Phil warned me that our lives would be in danger if we talked… I still talked but I was the loner on that.
When Phil got back from England he was told that the JFK case was like a traditional sacrifice of the best…
So Phil told me we got to do his song about it called Crucifixion which tells the story in poetic terms.. and when you know that Phil was there, it is really a revelation. Before Phil died he told me that he was working with an up and coming Air Force General….one of the “Good Guys”, but I was told by other men that Kissinger was the paymaster.
Which made sense since this kind of all got started when we were in ROTC at Ohio State.
Phil told me in the late 60’s that RFK was gonna get to the bottom of it.
We now know from the book “Brothers” that RFK knew that it was an inside job but didn’t want to publicly say anything because it takes a president to get to the bottom of all this… The “Who shot John Game” is a CIA ploy to keep you all guessing while the Cover-up keeps us from knowing a lot more and the cover-up is the main crime anyway because that is the Secret Government’s ticket to keep the War Machine the Boss… The cover up is the Coup and National Security is the excuse to keep it all hidden even if we already know the main points.
Nuclear War was the excuse for the cover-up of JFK and is the excuse for the Crimes of Little George too.
Nice racket EH?
So I believe that Phil told RFK that he was sent to Dealy because he sang Crucifixion for him two times. Once at his Senate office and again on an airliner… safer from Bugs.
One of our old friends from Ohio State is a Colonel in the Air Guard now who goes to Russia and China and who got in touch with me recently after all these years…. He is a Bush supporter but I am trying to turn him into a peace Activist and he is mellowing a bit for the better now.
Much of the whole truth might come out if we get a new president who wants us to know…. Clinton was afraid to know.
I thank pastor for trying to stop the ugly jokes and gay-bashing that I also consider offensive.
Twister, as I remember it, the Miami Herald printed the Rex 84 plans and THEN Jack Brooks brought it up at the Iran=Contra hearings. Sen Inoyue,D-Hawaii- who was also in the Watergate hearings, smashed his gavel down and proclaimed that there would be no talk of such things. Jack Brooks looked very surprised.
Then they adjourned for the weekend and on Monday it was all down the memory hole.
I agree with pastor that they will not do anything that they don’t have to do. Why disturb the matrix? As long as the majority of Americans go to work, pay their taxes, buy stuff and pay no attention to the fascists, they will continue as usual.
There will be elections. Why not? They’ve got the voting machines, and it keeps the public distracted. Someone yesterday pointed out that voting in america is like the steering wheel that toddlers have in the back seat of their parents car. It keeps them occupied and they actually think they’re having an effect. Why would the ruling class take away the plastic steering wheel, when even on Common Dreams we have posters whose only answer to our problems is: vote Democrat!!!
Why open the concentration camps unless there is unrest? That would disturb the matrix. Everything’s fine. Pay no attention to the man tasering people behind the curtain.
There were plans in the 1980s and in the 1950s. But they weren’t used, because the American sheep remained in line. I believe that there is no difference this time.
Why is speaking the truth bashing gays? Hoover was obviously an ugly man and he just also happened to be a homosexual. That’s not bashing. We have several gay friends, they aren’t ugly they’re very nice people. Hoover was not nice, he held a position of power and was an evil blackmailer for one thing.
KEM PATRICK,
I don’t mean to deny the possibility that such plans exist. I know that there were similar rumors back in the 80’s circulating that Ollie North, King George I, and Reagan were going to use FEMA powers to install martial law, etc. But it turned out in New Orleans that FEMA was so goddamned incompetent that it couldn’t rescue a single city let alone keep an entire nation — with many wilderness and hard-to-reach areas — under a solid state of martial law. I’ve seen a lot of this country, and met many ordinary people on the street. Smart, stupid, the good, bad and ugly. We may not be a particularly bright people as a whole, but if push came to shove I don’t think there’s any possible way they could keep leadership of the US while jailing millions for thought crimes. Probably the military would cleave, and the majority would follow a batch of retired generals who resisted domestic government fascism. At least, outright fascism. So long as it’s subtle, embedded and depersonified in the economy, or privatized they seem to tolerate it.
They are sworn to protect the US from threats both domestic and foreign. They exist to defend the Bill of Rights. And to obey the Commander in Chief. If the Commander in Chief gives them contradictory orders, they are in a paradox. I think that a series of small paradoxes are possible to maintain, but large ones will eventually cause something to snap — and there will be a struggle for new leadership. Maybe there won’t be anyone much better at the plate, but there will be a struggle nonethless. At least, this is the pattern with many other former European colonies across the world that are run by warlords, druglords, strongmen, organized crime, religious fundamentalists, dictators, etc.
The time to be afraid here, in this case, is when any of us are sitting in a cell and it’s been a week or two since the last plate of gruel. Until then, our voice is our weapon — and our right — and we use it.
I, for one, am driven by progress. I’d like to see a dialing back of the wartime economy for the first time in almost a century, the return to the gold standard, Range/IRV, no electoral college, unicameral/parliamentary style government, immediate preservation of all remaining old growth areas, single-payer health care, paid paternal/maternal leave, 32-35 hour work-week, double the vacation time. I’m not driven to any of this by fear, but by understanding of how we’re ruining great potential. The very wealthiest people, the sort that run our country, don’t understand — they’ve lived such a life of privilege that they can afford to piss away everything. Potential isn’t something they’re ever concerned about fulfilling. In a sense, they’re extreme nihilists. I’m concerned about the future of the planet, the sort of world our children will live in.
If the concentration camps are true, then we should approach them pragmatically. Fight or flight, but not fear.
The fact that you may consider Hoover unattractive or that he was a homosexual is bashing gays when so many posters seem to imply that is justification for criticizing his policies and that homosexuals are necessarily ugly and therefore too desperate to date heterosexually. I personally think Hoover appears to be an average guy of early senior years, and I suspect that many of the men on this site will look no better when they are his age or older. I regard this issue as important because this type of caricature demeans and places homosexuals like my brother at very real risk for their lives and I don’t mind in the least giving lectures on the subject to people.
The sexual lampooning is not funny nor helpful in building momentum to what we all really agree on. That being reversing the dangerous trend of our government to greater centralization of power and reduction of civil liberties.
It is clear that the federal government is already working to inhibit political organization upon the left to the point that they are seeking authority to use the draconian measures that Hoover and McCarthy had used in the past. They are already claiming that we are dangerously militant. How ironic is that! The charge might not be without some merit as individuals lose hope and seek means to counterbalance policies they cannot agree with and avoid repression that they cannot live with. I repeat that it is important that we organize to give people hope and demonstrate with our actions and intentions that we are not the ones resorting to violent means to assure our political success. This will discredit the right’s claims and provide the escape valve that will eventually remove the right from power.
Pastor,
I was trying to point out the irony that many voracious homophobs in government are themselves: Gay. Republican Pat Foley of FL , Republican Larry Craig of MI. - This is apparently also true of many gay-condemning priests of the intolerant Catholic church.
In retrospect, “homo” was a poor choice of wordage. It just kind of fit with “Hoover the Homo” the ultimate slap in the face of the probable father of Neoconservatism, which I chose to Lapoon. If I had to do it over again, I wouldn’t have used that word.
Your opinion is fine. But I’m not some mindless member of your flock that you can reprimand. And it seems to me, from the tone of your post, that you are having a little trouble with this concept of free speech. Perhaps you should learn how to selectively read rather than trying to coerce others into posting what you want to see printed.
I recommend that you skip over my posts in the future if they so agitate you.
pacplyer
PASTOR WROTE “The fact that you may consider Hoover unattractive, or that he was a homosexual is bashing gays.”
It is?? ___ Does your mind always work that way??
Hey flock preacher, I don’t bash Gays, we had dinner with a couple of very good Gay friends last week. They’re swell people, they just happen to be gay ladies who love one another and they also aren’t ugly, in fact one of them, the one with the male hormones, could pose for a Playboy centerfold and she should. She’s a standup 38DD and the rest fits her very nicely, has MMs legs.
They’re very intelligent college professors and published authors and both possess a great sense of humor. I don’t agree with their sexual preferences, but that’s their business. __ Hoover on the other hand, whatever sexual preference he had, is an ugly prick and he couldn’t help it. If he was a decent person, few would likely notice his ugliness. So commenting upon his warthog like appearance is not Gay bashing, it’s Hoover bashing and he deserves it, __ dead or alive. Of course I will admit, it’s safer to do so, now that he’s dead.
Great post KEM.
A person with your great wit understands the difference between bashing and humor (although I can’t hold a candle to yours and my satire is sometimes misinterpreted, as above.) For the record: I really like some gays. Especially asians. They are kind, gentle, non-threatening males here who are genuinely interested in old guys like me but will not put their hand on your shoulder unless they sense you are not threatened by them doing it. I am married and have no interest in relationships with them: but I am friends with a number of them. Live and let live. Some are great looking too. But beauty is relative, and compared to Hoover, everybody was good looking! (it’s fine to make fun of public figures, fairly or unfairly: it’s an American tradition - those who have read American political History know this.)
I feel the best way to deal with the paranoia of these gov turds who keep passing anti-free speech legislation is just for all of us to ignore these measures since they’re illegal and unconstitutional anyway. Let’s continue to talk about whatever the helll we want to; just like we all copied VHS tapes despite the FBI warning of going to jail if we dared to make a duplicate of our own property, or if we dared to give or sell our own property to someone else. They can’t put everyone in jail. So be defiant. Be Loud.
I feel that all options should be discussed and on the table, including: revolution. I am not advocating revolution because I think it has a snowflakes chance in helll of success; however, the mere act of discussing how our founding fathers dealt with tyranny should be a warning sign to our “leaders” that this population will not be passive forever.
The Neocon model of government worked to build an American Empire. It cannot though, by it’s own predatory market forces, provide a solution to the grave worldwide thermal runaway that is now in progress.
That’s what I think.
Make fun of your leaders. Otherwise they see themselves as kings.
The early congress got into a dispute with the Chair about what to call the new leader of the United States. Most wanted a simple name like president, prime minister and so forth. The Chair of the Senate, John Adams, continued against the majority arguing for days without end that Washington should be refered to as “His Excellency.” In an unfair retort against his portly figure, many senators began referring to Adams as “His Rotundness.”
Poking fun at public figures is a constitutionally protected right. Doing this to an individual citizen, if not true, is slander (oral) or libel (written.) You are allowed to make commentary about anybody as long as you make it clear that it is only your opinion.
This is my understanding of the law.
The above is, as all my posts are, just my opinion only.
Happy New Year,
pac “free speech” plyer
Can Pastor sue us?
Everyone bare with me, one can’t get through Christmas day without at least some small exposure to air freshioner and I still feel a bit groggy).
Jim Glover, speaking of sealed records, you heard of the David Ridgen documentary “Mississippi Cold Case?” - bits and pieces of the information were scattered all over the country. Think of it as 50 copies of something and each person who has a copy only destroying parts of it. It is getting all the information together so you can figure out what it all means that is important.
Whatever still exists does become declassified after a certain point automatically. Originally, Ridgen and Thomas James Moore were just looking for information to shed a bit more light on the issue and they ended up with a conviction. I would go to cbc.ca/sunday or cbc.ca/fifth and present what you have as a story idea - Ridgen works for the former and the latter are on speaking terms with Schreiber. Remember the way Washington operates - they would rather discredit you than kill you - turn you into a person no one would listen to.
Wikipedia says Ray later fired Foreman as his attorney (from then on derisively calling him “Percy Fourflusher”) claiming that a man he met in Montreal, Canada, using the alias “Raoul” had been deeply involved, as was his brother Johnny, but not himself, further asserting that although he didn’t “personally shoot Dr. King,” he may have been “partially responsible without knowing it,” hinting at a conspiracy.
There are a few crime families in Montreal, have you seen “Crime Pays” - just to see if any of the family names seem familiar (not the main one but who they took over from):
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/crimepays/index.html
Jim Glover says: Now Hoover and Dulles had to know that I was on the bus in Texas and saw a lot and they knew that Jean, who was separated from me at certain critical times could not be trusted because we were married. So pickin James Earl Ray as the patsy helps keep the cover-up of JFK too.
They may not know how many pieces you put together and odds and ends don’t amount to much. So you say that you have inside information concerning Ray - who, as a habitual criminal, would have been perfect. There was no conspiracy with James Patrick Driskell, but because of his criminal past, he seemed the “obvious” suspect when his best friend was murdered - and now, it seems, he never did it. And, though he may be dead before he is cleared, the same seems to be true for Erin Michael Walsh.
Jim Glover says: Before Phil died he told me that he was working with an up and coming Air Force General….one of the “Good Guys”, but I was told by other men that Kissinger was the paymaster.
There have been nasty rumours concerning Kissinger in that some consider him guilty of war crimes. I would recommend searching for “kissinger” under the rabble.ca archive search (sometime if clicking on place for article doesn’t work, click in another place for it).
Paul Bramscher says: I don’t mean to deny the possibility that such plans exist. I know that there were similar rumors back in the 80’s circulating that Ollie North, King George I, and Reagan were going to use FEMA powers to install martial law, etc.
So when it doesn’t happen, it was only a rumour rather than a plan thwarted/delayed? The right doesn’t get everything on their wish list all the time or your country (and ours) would be in even worse shape. No one ever gets everything they want for Christmas! We can’t completely separate the reign of Reagan and King George I since King George was Vice President under Reagan’s reign.
In the eulogy Mulroney gave at Reagan’s funeral, he credited Reagan for the reunification of Germany. Helmut Kohl, who was chancellor of Germany at the time was also credited with the reunification of Germany - coincidence? Helmut Kohl (leader of the CDU) was involved in the “CDU contributions scandal” where his party received illegal donations/kick backs big time - enough to make Cheney and Haliburtion look like innocent mischief by comparison.
Paul Bramscher says: But it turned out in New Orleans that FEMA was so goddamned incompetent that it couldn’t rescue a single city
Couldn’t or didn’t want to? The attempt originally was to blame it on the mayor and, only later did FEMA get blamed for anything. There were buses but they were parked in the wrong area and a lot of misinformation abound. Also, why did the US keep refusing help from neighbouring countries until it was too late for them to be able to do much? No one asks that. It takes a couple days to get there and you delay giving permission to enter the US to help it costs many lives. The Mayor was asking for help, the Governor was asking for help but neither could get permission for the help many countries were offering.
Finally got Klein’s book, as soon as I perk up enough so that my reading level improves enough, I am going to start reading it.
Paul Bramscher says: They are sworn to protect the US from threats both domestic and foreign. They exist to defend the Bill of Rights.
Paul Bramscher says: Ergo the presumed trade off between defending rights and protecting America. Does it say protecting “America” or protecting “Americans” - since the two are not completely the same. If it is the former, it matters who they define “Amercia.”
pastor says: I regard this issue as important because this type of caricature demeans and places homosexuals like my brother at very real risk for their lives / The sexual lampooning is not funny nor helpful in building momentum to what we all really agree on.
Not all gays are of the log cabin variety either - any of you heard of El-Farouk Khaki or salaam? You all know about James Loney who was kidnapped the same time as Tom Fox was and the secret he had to keep hidden until his release. I would look him up if I were you. Hoover’s sexual orientation is not important but the possibility that he had the power to keep it out of the media might be important if it gives insight to how Hoover operated - how he managed to both keep his own secrets out of public scrutiny and uncover the secrets of others. Same with Kennedy and his many affairs - I am sure that they were common enough knowledge by people who would prefer to maintain both life and occupation. Loney is for KEM and Khaki is for the brother.
pastor says It is clear that the federal government is already working to inhibit political organization upon the left to the point that they are seeking authority to use the draconian measures that Hoover and McCarthy had used in the past.
I think that even McCarthy knew that most of the people he was accusing of being “commies” weren’t. It was basically a smoke screen to get rid of those who, if left alone, could bring embarrassing questions into the limelight. You are right, it is all about discrediting.
KEM PATRICK says: A person with your great wit understands the difference between bashing and humor
I think fear for his brother’s life may make the situation a bit less humourous for him. Not like me and my brother. My brother was making obnoxious comments to me all day so when his wife said in reference to desert “Chocolate is better than sex” I said to her “considering that you are with my brother, I believe you.” You notice that Canada started making fun of America’s post 9-11 “Homeland Security” way before Americans felt comfortable with such things being made fun of.
KEM PATRICK says: Make fun of your leaders. Otherwise they see themselves as kings.
Of course! But Canadian comics make fun of our leaders for being homophobes. You do know the abbreviation or homogenized milk? Let’s just say that Stockwell day prefers being chocolate milked that having this type of milk thrown at him.
I always enjoy the way ‘The Clique” ignores important friggin’ issues as suspension of the Posse Comitatus Act, thanks to the John Warner Defense Act of 2007, which would indeed provide a way for bush to declare Marshall Law.
Read the damn issues, and stop whining ‘Is Google a source, blsh, blah’, sorry I am not part of the ‘gang’, but research this. If you really want to see what is going to happen.
VAUDREE SAYS.___ VAUDREE SAYS ___ VAUDREE SAYS.
Hey Vaudree, please be a bit more careful about what you write KEM says, because I am not the one who said the words you attributed to me.
Obviously as you stated, you must still be a bit groggy and you always are. You argue constantly with others here, re-write what they ‘SAID’, take portions of their posts out of context, in an attempt to show others they are wrong. Then you give your opinions, which often are written in such a manner that no one can understand what the hell you are babbling about. You wrote as if I have aproblem with Gay people and I don’t, and have explanied that to another silly bloggger. Take your continual nonsense and shove it.
~~ An essay of SATIRE,__or SARCASM, by Dresden.
“Satire has always shone among the best, and is the boldest way, if not the best, to tell men freely of their foulest thoughts. To laugh at their vain deeds and vainer thoughts.”
Thomas Paine, who penned Common Sense, used satire to great effect, as did Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincloln, Jay Leno, etc, etc.
It is more than fascinating that the NY Times chose to write about Hoover’s plan for mass jailing in 1950 but refuses to write about the actual execution of Hoover’s mass jailing in 1941 isn’t? Does the NY Times believe the public is more interested in Hoover’s PROPOSED plans to intern American citizens than the actual reality of interning 15,000 European American citizens and legal residents that occurred during WWII? The mechanics of Hoover’s proposed plan during the cold war was identical to the actual plan that was carried out on European Americans, labor leaders, communists and so called radicals just a decade earlier. A custodial index was compiled as early as 1936 to supposedly “apprehend all individuals potentially dangerous” to national security. The arrests were carried out all over the country under “a master warrant attached to a list of names” provided by the bureau. There were over 50 Department of Justice internment camps during WWII. These camps are different than the relocation camps where Japanese Americans were incarcerated.
For over 60 years, internees, family, friends and constitutional defenders, have pushed for a congressional examination of “selective internment” policies used against mostly innocent citizens and immigrants during WWII. But how do you influence legislators to investigate a program cloaked in secrecy, when there are only a few hundred victims alive and they are dispersed across political districts throughout the US? Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that both political parties are complicit in the cover up of WWII “selective” internment. Honestly, neither party wants to expose this chapter of history, which is the really scary part. That coupled with total media silence demonstrates there is a lot to hide from the public. Ask the question, why is the NY Times more interested in writing about a plan not executed than one that was?
Even with actual FBI records obtained through FOI requests we can not get the media to expose this story. Unfortunately,without exposure we do not have the political clout to influence legislators to establish a commission to investigate this chapter of American history. Why is this 60 year old history important? Rendition, black sites,Guantanamo are all modeled after earlier programs but modified to become more secretive, these programs are not designed for public safety but for control of populations.
For more information on European American internment during WWII visit the following websites:
www.foitimes.com
www.gaic.info
www.traces.org