Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
TechnoratiIf Iraq was a Mistake, Why are We Still There?
However one frames the debate, it is apparent to any fair minded and rational person that the invasion of Iraq, based as it was on misinformation at best, lies and deceptions at worst, was a mistake and should never have occurred. Certainly President Obama has made this claim on numerous occasions as well as many who had previously supported (and voted for) the war. After having acknowledged this fact, however, President Obama and others would have us forget the past as it serves, in their view, no practical purpose to rehash and moralize over things that cannot be undone. It will be the work of future historians, legal scholars, and philosophers, they argue, to untangle, interpret, and make judgments regarding the complex events and decisions that led to the invasion and characterize the occupation of Iraq. They warn that it is imperative at this crucial juncture that we deal with the matters at hand, that we act quickly and decisively in our national interest to ensure that our Country remains safe, that our goals in Iraq and Afghanistan are achieved, and that our sacrifice in blood and treasure is not for naught.
What President Obama and others who advocate such a position fail to appreciate is that we live in a Nation that understands and accepts the importance of the Constitution and the rule of law, both moral and International. Accordingly, we determine our behavior, how we conduct ourselves as a Nation, not only by what is in our national interest but also by what is right, not only by what we CAN do, but also by what we OUGHT to do. This is what we stand for as a people, the values we hold sacred as a nation. Consequently, to focus exclusively on “practical considerations” – present conditions and problems – considered in isolation and apart from the causal chain of events that led to the situation as it exists today is morally and legally unacceptable and incoherent and counter to the principles and values we believe must guide and determine our future course of action not only in Iraq, but in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and elsewhere in the world as well.
By accepting that the invasion and occupation of Iraq was a mistake we must accept all that such an admission entails. According to Just War Theory and International Law, the illegal and immoral use of violence and deadly force against a sovereign nation and its citizenry, constitutes aggression. Aggression is morally wrong and a war crime under International Law. Aggressors violate the rights of the aggressed to life, self-determination, and to live in a nation that enjoys political sovereignty and territorial integrity – sometimes referred to as the “rights of nations.” Aggressors are Unjustifiable Combatants. The victims of aggression have the privilege to assert their rights – to act in self and national defense. As such, they are Justifiable Combatants. Consequently, our invasion and occupation of Iraq is aggression, members of our military are aggressors – Unjustifiable Combatants – and those that struggle against us, the “insurgents,” are Justifiable Combatants asserting their right of self and national defense.
This is the reality of our involvement in Iraq, a reality entailed and implied by a recognition that our invasion was a mistake and should never have occurred. The “fact” that we may have had good intentions does not alter the moral and legal value of our involvement. “Mistaken” aggression is no less aggression, no less a war crime. “Mistaken” aggressors are no less liable to be resisted – warred against in self and national defense.
Yet despite the realization that the invasion and occupation in Iraq is aggression and despite our economy bordering on collapse, President Obama, and many of our fellow citizens, argue that we cannot just stop the killing and destruction and walk away. One important reason, they offer, is national security. We must end the chaos created by our aggression and restore stability in Iraq to ensure that it does not become a training ground and sanctuary for terrorists who wish us harm. A second reason, interestingly enough, is a moral one. Paradoxically, we cannot stop the killing and destruction in Iraq because we recognize our moral culpability and responsibility for our aggression. That is, we cannot just abandon the Iraqi people to the endless civil war and sectarian violence that would “inevitably” occur in the power vacuum created by our departure. Consequently, we are morally obligated to continue the killing and the destruction in Iraq for at least a few more years, in order to save the Iraqis from themselves and so they may enjoy the gift of freedom and democracy as recompense for our aggression. While the initial use of violence and deadly force against the Iraqi people may have been aggression, now, however, we are on solid moral and legal ground, as the continued killing and destruction entailed by our remaining, is humanitarian intervention. (General George Casey, the Army Chief of Staff, by the way, said recently that his strategic planning envisions combat troops remaining in Iraq and Afghanistan for as long as ten years).
This argument for the continued occupation of Iraq is clearly incoherent. It is as though our political leaders have accepted that the American public is incapable of rational thought and will accept any reason and justification for war as long as it is presented as furthering our national interest and feeds our national ego regarding our benevolence and moral superiority in the world.
It is time, therefore, long past time, that we show President Obama and the Congress that we will be duped no longer, that we are not a nation of sheep, and that we possess the ability to reason and think critically. It is time, therefore, long past time, that we accept the reality of what we have done and continue to do in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and elsewhere in the world. We must stop the killing and the destruction now, not later. We must understand that bringing stability to the region is not about escalating violence, increasing the number of troops, or dropping more and larger bombs. Nor is it about searching out and destroying al Qaeda or the Taliban, or even capturing or killing bin Laden. Rather, it is about inclusiveness, diplomacy, understanding and dialogue. It is about doing the difficult work of reconciliation and of addressing the grievances that nourish radicalism. Most important, I believe, should we at long last recognize that the days of US unilateralism and imperialism are over and realize the necessity of involving and soliciting the assistance of area powers such as Iran, Russia, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, China and India, not only will the world be a better and safer place, but perhaps for the first time in many years, we will begin to live according to the principles and values that we claim characterize our nation and of which we are so proud.
88 Comments so far
Show AllThe more recently revealed, reason the invasion of Iraq was a mistake: Gog and Magog. These are the Biblical evil characters that GWB told Jacques Chirac we must defeat in the Middle East in order to usher in the new age. GWB told Chirac that God had told him to invade Iraq.
japanese mini trucks
The question that needs to be asked, and answered, is 'What if Iraq was not a mistake?'.
Hilarious. A good send-up of a neocon.
Aggressive war is a violation of domestic law and the US Constitution.
Other crimes were committed in the run-up to the war and in its conduct; fraud, torture, use of illegal weapons, seizure of resources, failure to protect ordinary citizens, failure to provide vital services to citizens, destruction of civilian infrastructure, extra-legal incarceration, rendition. Those crimes continue and are now the crimes of the current administration, congress and the DOJ.
All three branches of government are involved. That's why we are still there. There are not enough people inside the government, who are not implicated, to stop it.
Politically it is in the interests of politicians to protect the interests of their paymasters. The big money comes from big oil and war contractors.
Imagine this. First, the son-of-a-gun wished to marry the girl. The girl would have nathing to do with the bastard. The bastard then raped her. Now the girl has lost her virginity and has become a shame to her family. The girl may also be pregnant. So for the sake of the raped victim, the rapist decided to "do the right thing". He must now "save" the girl from her shame and take care of her. He now insisted that the girl marry him. It is the only honorable thing for him to do. So said the bastard and all his clan members (KKK). He is a noble man as all he wanted was to make an "honorable woman" of the rapid victim.
What a noble, self-sacrificing great man President Barack Obama is! The Bush-Ohama regimes are proceeding ahead with the immoral, cruel scam and the rest of the world knows it. When cheap oil starts flowing into Imperial USA, all will be forgiven and forgotten by the American PEOPlE.
THE REST OF THE WORLD REMEMBERS!!!!!! In the meantime they will do all they can to get their hands on a nuclear bomb. It is the only way to stop the raping bastards from raping your country.
This is what happens (U.S. troops remaining in Iraq) when the vast majority of politicians owe their election victories to a handful of rich and powerful defence contractors. To think that "moral judgement" is even a consideration in D.C., is naive. As long as Americans continue to vote for the two corporate parties (The dems and repubs are wholly dependant on their corporate sponsors) the evil will endure.
I spent thirty-three years and four months in actve service as a member of our most agile military force-the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lietenant to major general. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Sreet, and for bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism....Thus I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American Oil interests in 1914. I heped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in....I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903.
General Smedley D. Butler
It's a daunting task to shift this momentum of immorality...it's a pleasure to have joined with those at Common Dreams to do so...we wouldn't want to have come to the planet to merely bask in the sun like a lizard would we? It seems we must move past what Chaomsky recently phrased as "selective atrocities" (which to me appears as forms of idolatry) and gain the upper hand through a new form of constructive dialogue and action - whatever those might be(?). Perhaps the internet is providing the initial steps in regard to dialogue...with the actions to come...
Iran now blames the US & Israel for the mosque blast killing 25 shiites a couple days ago. Shocking. The motive? To inflame tensions with minority Sunnis.
A threader above said the US is in Iraq because of Israel? Stupid-Israel does not meddle in the affairs of other countries.
Why is the US still in Iraq?
Why did the US attack & occupy Iraq?
What country would mourn the most if we left Iraq?
Man, NO idea there.
Hello Md!
Because a crappy candidate, supported by crappy supporters, stole the nomination? Just guessing.
I read in a christian-socialist website that the devil is really the capitalist system, and that the second coming of Christ will be really a revolutionary socialist leader who will judge the capitalist system, and send it to hell. Another thing that they claim is that the Israel of the Bible is not the fascist Israel state bombing inocent civilians. But the real Israel are the oppressed victims of capitalism today. I suspect that most US christian churches are satanic really. So protect yourselves from the dark forces of this world. God bless you all and protect us from the satanic capitalist system, which is the system of Lucifer
MarxistGod, Interesting post. I worship the words Christ spoke, and the ones Marx wrote. My two favorite Jews, of many, throughout history. The idiotic usurpations of both's teachings by their purported acolytes would make the angels cry.
For me it's simple. Class warfare, the consolidation of wealth by imperialist corporations and inevitable revolution are truths. So to are the dictums love god and love you, whoever you may be. Loving our brothers and sisters and god is all Christ exhorted us to. And Karl got it right too.
And if he scoffed at the idea of Religion, called it the opiate etc, he was right. Christ never ever ever spoke of "church". Or anything akin to this. Maybe he could see what was to come. Act-ually, of course he could.
Marx and Christ both envisioned utopias.....
No prophet is accepted in his home town.....
Well said, Joe...
Whoa, that's some pretty radical information there, cowboy. Care to elaborate?
I will create an anti-democrat party website to spread the truth about the Democrat Party which is a party of the middle upper classes. The middle classes are real reactionary and counter-change
if you are aware, maybe you've seen luxury new cars out there, BMWs, Mercedes Benz, Cadillacs, Volvos, Honda Accords, Lexus, Toyota Camrys with Obama bumper stickers. Anybody who can afford a car in the price range between 30,000 dollar to 80,000 dollar with expensive insurance, and expensive maintaince fees is not part of the US oppressed sector and doesn't need any change of political and economic system
the US working classes get into cars in the price between 5,000 and 20,000 (No more than that) because US workers have a limited-salary, and are not controllers of how much money they make. US workers are controlled by the dictates of the capitalist-class (The exploiters)
another thing is that on top of earning low wages, US workers have to pay bills which weigh on their shoulders like a Damocles sword
.
USA NEEDS A SOCIALIST-PARTY TO RISE TO POWER AND SMASH THE BOURGEOISE-STATE !!
WHAT USA NEEDS IS A TEMPORARY DICTATORSHIP OF THE PROLETARIAN !!
"The dictatorship of the proletariat is a stubborn struggle, bloody and bloodless, violent and peaceful, military and economic, educational and administrative against the forces and traditions of the old society." -Lenin
The dictatorship of the proletariat is the instrument of the proletarian revolution, its organ, its most important mainstay, brought into being for the purpose of, firstly, crushing the resistance of the overthrown exploiters and consolidating the achievements of the proletarian revolution, and secondly, carrying the revolution to the complete victory of socialism
The dictatorship of the proletariat arises not on the basis of the bourgeois order, but in the process of the breaking up of this order, after the overthrow of the bourgeoisie, in the process of the expropriation of the landlords and capitalists, in the process of the socialisation of the principal instruments and means of production, in the process of violent proletarian revolution
Under capitalism the exploited masses do not, nor can they ever, really participate in governing the country, if for no other reason than that, even under the most democratic regime, under conditions of capitalism, governments are not set up by the people but by the Rothschilds and Stinneses, the Rockefellers and Morgans.
Democracy under capitalism is capitalist democracy, the democracy of the exploiting minority, based on the restriction of the rights of exploited majority and directed against this majority.
Only under the proletarian dictatorship are real liberties for the exploited and real participation of the proletarians and peasants in governing the country possible. Under the dictatorship of the proletariat, democracy is proletarian democracy, the democracy of the exploited majority, based on the restriction of the rights of the exploiting minority and directed against this minority.
The dictatorship of the proletariat cannot arise as the result of the peaceful development of bourgeois society and of bourgeois democracy; it can arise only as the result of the smashing of the bourgeois state machine, the bourgeois army, the bourgeois bureaucratic apparatus, the bourgeois police.
Therefore, Lenin is right in saying:
"The proletarian revolution is impossible without the forcible destruction of the bourgeois state machine and the substitution for it of a new one" (see Vol. XXIII, P. 342)
Soviet power as the state form of the dictatorship of the proletariat. The victory of the dictatorship of the proletariat signifies the suppression of the bourgeoisie, the smashing of the bourgeois state machine and the substitution of proletarian democracy for bourgeois democracy
.
MarxistGod I can't believe that anyone who has lived through the 20th century could possibly want to live in a Marxist state.
Why don't you ask any religious person weather they like a system that does not allow them to worship?
Why don't you ask the the population of Chechnya if they like Marxism?
Why don't you ask the monks of Tibet weather they agree with Marxism?
Why don't you ask the student that got killed by a tank in Tienanmen square weather he likes Marxism?
Oh, wait you can't, he is DEAD.
Unfortunately, as is to often the case with people who live in a state that allows freedom of speech, they think that every form of government allows it's citizens to say what they like. That is not the case in the USSR or China or any other government that is considered a Marxist state. I don't read Russian but I'm sure that Pravda(The government controlled Russian newspaper) does run any articles criticizing the government.
Marxism is tired and old. It has failed, and just like fascism it should be relegated to the annals of history. Human beings are meant to be free, not collared servants owned by authoritative governments. I work when I want to, and for whom I want to. I'm self employed and while I will never be rich, I get by without having to bend my knee to corporate rule. In a Marxist government you have to do as you're told, if you don't you end up a six feet under just like the brave student in Tienanmen square.
Marxism like any other form of authoritarian government, is crap. I like FREEDOM, thank you very much. And before you accuse me of being a capitalist, think again. I like Anarchy. Oh, and by the way the anarchist are the first group to be rounded up and killed in a Marxist state. So while I don't agree with the current version of Democracy today, I do appreciate the fact that I can respond to your comments without fear of government reprisal.
It's difficult for me see the words of a murdered(Stalin the creator of the great purge) quoted as if it were some sort of truth. The meaning of those words to me are "let's change the current system for one where a different group of authoritarian bastards are in charge". Violence leads to more violence not less. If we overthrow a government and kill all the dissenters because their ideas are dangerous, nothing will be change for the majority of the population.
Now if you are taking about a social democracy instead of Marxism, that's a completely different type of animal. I very much agree on limiting the power of corporations and government thereby greatly increasing the power of the individual.
I would recommend not calling the party "the socialist-party"(Americans don't like the name and would not accept it). Anyway the Green party is already established and many of the tenets of a social democracy are core values of the greens.
You cannot believe anyone who lived through the 20th century would want to live in a Marxist state?
Heard of Batista? The US? Because they were strangling, starving and torturing Cubans, most of whom did not even have shoes until 1959 when Fidel Castro drove the US out of Havana and off most of the island. Within a year or two there was not a barefoot or hungry Cuban on the island.
And most Cubans today, who lived through the 20th century, dig the heck out of their Marxist country. So there is one example for you.
Want another? Overlay the same scenario over Nicaragua and insert the names Somoza (our neat guy) and the Sandanistas who machine gunned him to Hell and drove the US out.
Want another? I lived through the 20th century, and I'd do anything to live in a Marxist state. Maybe then I would not have blood on my hands from children on the other side of the world. Maybe then I could access dental and medical care.
Do Cubans kill with drones too?
Oh, I forgot, they send Doctors around the world, not missiles.
Yeah, how many Cubans did Castro kill?
Did you know that the first thing he did after he took power,was to put all the newspapers, radio stations and television stations under government control. After that anarchist, gay and other undesirable people(moderates, teachers, and professors) were incarcerated without trials. In any given year, there were about 20,000 dissents held and tortured under inhuman conditions. Death by firing squads was the preferred way to kill the dissenters.
Many more that Batista, to be specific 9,240. As for your statement about Cubans enjoying their lives check out South Florida's Cuban community. Yeah they left because life is so good there. And if you have a short memory Mariel happened in 1980 and most of the refugees were former Castro sympathizers. So no that is not a good example.
Please try again.
Oh, and if you go to Cuba today and asked the Cubans living in Cuba if they like the Government,they will not answer, because they fear reprisal.
As for Nicaragua, I don't have the numbers, but the bloodshed there was quite gruesome too.
If you want to live in Marxist country move, you are free to do so. This country is not going to keep you here against your will. Unlike Cuba.
nebraska nathan, claiming to be that great american icon, the farmer, is seemingly spending way too much time in front of his computer.
perhaps he's got a solid stake in the government's form of welfare for the farmer: subsidies.
or he's really busy farming bullshit.
Most of the food comes from the corporate factory farms more than the small farmers. I wouldn't be surprised to see that troll taking mass subsidies or working for a big agri company that does. Nebraska is a hick state anyway and just like IA, it's all about corn over most any other crop.
over the barrel
astounding is the simplicity of the disaster.
when we start connecting the dots, when we start following the obvious, when we take a step back and say ohmyfuckinggod, only then is the picture clear.
in cheney's run-up to the iraqi war, many corporations and institutions were approached to play a major part in such an irresponsible act of greed, an act that promised huge slices of pie to those willing to invest in this hostile act of aggression, an act that would be a piece of cake resulting in those rewards of huge slices of pie, rewards in the form of total control over a basically helpless country unable to defend its only natural resource of any significance; this country ruled by no-fly zones, combined with another country infested with some of the most non-caring and complacent and ignorant citizens on the planet, this second country ruled by fear.
these corporations and institutions - banks, the white collar crooks of all time, wall street, ditto, insurance companies, ditto, and automobile manufacturers concretely connected to the invaded country's sole natural resource - all, unbelievably, managed to buy the salesman's pitch, everyone blinded by the greed, a greed so insane that it brought the pompous american empire to its knees and will ultimately bring the world as we know it to ruin; they pooled their financial resources into the salesman and his pet puppet's pet project and with the promise of shock and awe and missions accomplished and bring 'em on and yellow ribbons and plastic sheeting and duct tape and torture and while they waited for the wealth to pour thru the funnel, the salesman, the CONsumate salesman, always one step ahead, had other ideas.
then, inconceivable to the crooks and to the concretely connected, a complete and total and absolute failure of leadership occurred, causing the walls to crumble - previously witnessed by all on that sunny september morn - in such a way that the slices of pie turned to visions of sugar plums, far and distant and untouchable. events happened. bubbles of all kinds began to burst, record prices for the invaded country's natural resource, natural disasters, oh-so-golden parachutes... their investment, billions and billions of dollars, began to disappear quicker than a bush smirk or a cheney sneer. too much. spinning out of control. how to hold the salesman accountable? suddenly, the crooks and the concretely connected concocted the bailout. their bad investment suddenly became an even more brilliant scheme than the salesman had imagined. the salesman connected to it all. even more suddenly, money flowed from the presses. just as suddenly, bankruptcies were handled in record-setting performances. not quite so suddenly, the american people were duped. once again.
and the american people - engrossed in super bowls and lost causes and fat people losing weight and dancing with the starlets and bubba wants another beer - all sat on their collective lazy asses.
chris hedges, david michael green, seymour hirsch, cynthia mckinney, ralph nader, dennis kucinich, keith olbermann, anyone and everyone, the challenge is issued to pick up this ball and run with it.
The reason the US is such a great evil, incomparably the greatest in human history, is that its hereditary ruling class is insane and wicked, and the vast bulk of the US populace too dull, uninterested, brainwashed and stupified by layers of adipose gained through steady ingestion of junk food, to do anything about it. Any population that feels, as it is plain that the average chauvinistic and jingoistic ‘Joe Six-Pack’( not a reference, plainly, to abdominal musculature)that being ‘born in the USA’ confers some type of distinction, has lost the plot already. US malignancy possesses its peculiar character, I believe, because it is capitalist malevolence. Capitalism not only overthrows all pre-existing social structures, and undermines the very fabric of life-sustainability on the planet, but it also twists and distorts the human psyche and social relations. Capitalism favours the ruthless, greedy and unprincipled. It marginalises or destroys the co-operative, the generous, the empathic. An unnatural selection is at work, guaranteeing survival of the fittest, in capitalist terms. And those most fit for capitalism are the greedy, egotistical and those indifferent to the fate of others. In other words, the psychopaths. One need only read the descriptions of bloody-thirsty lynch-mobs, the massacres at My Lai, or the thriving market in ‘death-porn’ undertaken by US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, utilising their technological superiority in video imaging to collect souvenirs of their victims’ decapitations and eviscerations, to know that this is a society besotted with death and killing. Apparently the US military see the increasing use of drones to prosecute the mass killing of civilians in Afghanistan and Pakistan as intimidating and certain to demoralise the ‘enemy’. On the other hand the victims, or their surviving relatives and neighbours, not having been rendered morally insane by market capitalism, see the drones as sign of American cowardice, and who can but concur?
North Korea has already been devastated and levelled once by the US thanatomaniacs, with millions killed. The Judeocide apparently allows Israel to arm itself with nuclear weapons, but on the other hand, the Koreans, not owning the US political and media systems, although suffering a comparable death-toll, and being little, yellow, untermenschen, enjoy no such right. The sooner the Yankee Moloch is brought low, the better for the rest of the planet, although how it can be achieved without world war, is beyond me.
The other, more recently revealed, reason the invasion of Iraq was a mistake: Gog and Magog. These are the Biblical evil characters that GWB told Jacques Chirac we must defeat in the Middle East in order to usher in the new age. GWB told Chirac that God had told him to invade Iraq. Chirac was sufficiently alarmed to actually consult a Biblical scholar for explanation. Little wonder the French did not join the coalition of the willing. Would you follow a nut job who thinks God is talking to him?
I saw the report on Alternet. The story originally was reported a few years ago in (I think) the Lausanne university's publication and referenced in a newspaper article. It has recently been confirmed in a book by (or about) Jacques Chirac. Pity the tale is not being widely reported in the US press.
Invading and occupying Iraq was NOT a mistake. It was a deliberate plan to grab the oil supply and the defense industry was all for it because they profit from making and selling weapons of war and have no interest in how many of them or us get killed in the process. Life and death simply are not part of the equation to the military/industrial/congression comples. It was evil from the start but it was not a mistake.
I liked this article, very well reasoned I thought. I'll have to look up a few other articles by the author, if any!
When Iraq fought Iran the U.S. helped them. We sold them chemical weapons and later used the fact that they used them as a reason to invade Iraq. We could have negotiated the withdrawal from Kuwait without the war that was described as a turkey shoot. Iraq was never a formidable enemy to be feared,so much as, to need the most harsh economic sanctions after the first gulf war. The people of Iraq were held under siege for about 13 years. The nation was a concentration camp. They were destitute people and yet Bush was able to convince Americans that they were a great threat to the world. The invasion of Iraq was absolutely illegal and unjust but to add insult to injury the Bush administration brought foreign contractors instead of employing Iraqis to rebuild their country. They are a proud people who want to work. They do not want charity or be treated like children. Get out of Iraq now!
USA will stay in Iraq to protect the oil pipeline from Tikrit to Israel.
Obama will guarantee Israel this steady flow of oil in exchange for middle east peace.
Unfortunately, Israel is pathologically two-faced and shall concede nothing.
Obama will be left impotent...Unless...
...Unless...
...Unless YOU get out of your chair and rise up and FORCE Obama to triangulate to the left.
It all depends on YOU.
oil addiction
Telling the unvarnished truth, is Camilio Beca. Thanks very much.
Ah, the white man's burden in 2009.....
One word: OIL !
America's addiction to oil will never end until we keep raising the price of crude oil. Last year, even 150 was barely enough to get us to just think about our addiction to crude oil. Let the price rise to 500 and please punish us with $20/gallon gas. When the hell will Obama release those funds needed to repair our public transportation infrastructure. With rising unemployment, more blue collared workers in my area could use plenty of job offers to rebuild and repair our public transportation infrastructure. Management at Washington Metro is filthy rich and yet they never ever repair the creeky rails and train cars. We could be using light rail cars for driving to and from work and widen the infrastructure so I won't have to choose between I-66 and Rt 50 every day to and from work. Combine that with improvements in fuel efficiency and we can reduce our dependence on foreign oil and butt out of Iraq !
And let's not forget the Pottery Barn Rule cited by Colin Powell, who is featured elsewhere on this site today.
The way I understand it is that the Pottery Barn Rule provides that if you break an item while shopping, you get to take over the entire Pottery Barn for as long as you feel like it and do as you wish with it. Stay, remodel, wear out your welcome... whatever.
It's a funny kind of rule, isn't it?
· Yr Obd't Servant
After having acknowledged this fact, however, President Obama and others would have us forget the past as it serves, in their view, no practical purpose to rehash and moralize over things that cannot be undone.
Here is part of the cancerous, terminal problem of Borax Obysmal. It speaks for itself, loud and clear.
If you rephrase the headline to ask "If Iraq WASN'T a mistake ...", then the answer becomes self-evident.
Some very important people are getting very wealthy from the War of Terror (spelling corrected). Ephraim 12:54 p.m. is right on it.
Bica further sez: "It is as though our political leaders have accepted that the American public is incapable of rational thought ..."
***
OK, this is correct.
Bica sez: "What President Obama and others who advocate such a position fail to appreciate is that we live in a Nation that understands and accepts the importance of the Constitution and the rule of law, both moral and International."
***
Wrong.
If the "Nation" had such an understanding, this empire-building would not be happening.
We've been busy committing these "mistakes" for many years, it would seem. The word "mistake" for what we have done in Iraq is far too mild a description. It's a euphemism for very deliberate scheming and plotting that is patently criminal in intent. Vietnam was another "mistake" for which we have yet to apologize or pay reparations. All our meddling and murdering in the '80s in Central America was yet another "mistake", under Reagan the Great Fake. It would appear that the US is habitually making mistake after mistake as it blunders along its belligerent path toward total world domination. Obama is just as mesmerized by this commitment to mistakes as any of his predecessors. He's ignorantly convinced he can WIN in Afghanistan when no one else ever has, by committing exactly the same mistakes over and over and expecting a different result. That's the definition of insanity, and US foreign policy emobdies it, now as much as ever before.
"we will begin to live according to the principles and values that we claim characterize our nation and of which we are so proud."
"...every enlistee spends a week of basic training,- or at least a few days, doing bayonet training,--and we are putting a bayonet on the end of a rifle,-and we repeatedly stab a dummy that looks like a human being, and yell "kill!!" with every movement.- That is the basis, the first step of dehumanization towards the enemy,- the acceptance to kill.
There is a very popular thing our drill sergeants require us to say: the response to the question: "soldiers what makes the green grass grow?" and the response is. "blood! blood!! blood!!!, Drill Sergeant!..." "
Kristofer Goldsmith, ex army sergeant, Winter Soldier Hearings before the Progressive Caucus May, 09 Wash, D.C.
First off, let me piss off everyone here by reminding them that, however you might think Afghanistan is a disaster (I agree, it is) you cannot lump it in with Iraq.
The reason is that the invasion of Afghanistan was approved by the UN security council. Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN and therefore is NOT illegal, nor a war-crime.
It's a bloody disaster, yes. But that's a different argument.
Iraq certainly IS a war-crime. We are the aggressor nation and we committed an act of heinous wrong against another nation that did not attack us nor did that nation blockade ours. I agree with the general line of this article that continuing to stay in Iraq is actually unjustified simply on the basis of legality and furthermore we should be pulling out NOW and paying reparations to the Iraqi people.
Afghanistan though is legal. You might not like that fact, but it is a fact. I don't like that fact, but it does our cause little good to argue as if that fiasco is on the same legless footing as Iraq, it is not.
"Afghanistan though is legal."
Au Contraire. The universalist principle forming the basis of the far left platform is clear: The ruling of the UN Security Council regarding Afghanistan does not represent the better interests of the people. Therefore the ruling is not moral. If the ruling is not moral, what does its legality mean? Very little to the far left.
"approved by the un security council"? right the u.s.war department did approve of it. neither body has the power to make a war crime not a war crime.
The massacre of the people of Afghanistan was a war crime from the first bomb that was dropped, it continued to be a war crime with every village, every mud hut every shepherd, every wedding party that got bombed and will never ever be anything else. just a bigger and more horrible monstrosity the longer it lasts.
facts? you take your facts and put them where the sun don't shine
i know a war crim e when i see one
is it also true mr. physics man that it was those same poor illiterate hungry cold and miserable and bombed out villagers- your "legal" victims- who got the box cutters and flew the planes?
The Afghanistan war and occupation certainly IS illegal according to the Constitution. Congress did not declare war upon Iraq or Afghanistan, and now Obama has fomented civil war in Pakistan. Yes, bad precedents were set in Korea and Vietnam which were also wars not declared by congress. YOU may not like the fact that the wars are illegal according to our constitution, but they are. I know. The Constitution is just a god damned piece of paper, and we really have to be aware of and respond to realpolitik. I guess congressional declaration of war before committing hundreds of thousands of troops and hundreds of billions of dollars of war materiel are now simply a quaint formality that need not be observed, but still the law is on the books. We are a nation of laws. Aren't we? And, before you bring up the Authorization to Use Military Force, that was NOT a declaration of war. Congress had no right to abrogate its authority.
ekaton: Hey my friend Ekaton, i am humble and i don't want to say things that i cannot prove. However i have a theory about the US government and that theory is that the US government uses immoral-relativism, to shape the US constituion, the legal, moral and religious ethical codes to suit their capitalist imperialist goals. What i mean is that for example if the US constitution literally states that milk is white, the US government "Legal experts" would state that milk is black. And that's how the US corporate capitalist imperialist government has been behaving since late 1700s when Washington, and Jefferson said that USA is an "Empire of Liberty" with a justified-goal of grabing Mexico, Puerto Rico, Cuba, The Bahamas, Dominican Rep. Africa, South America, etc.
And that is why you see that Bush and Obama are waging wars even if the US constitution clearly states that wars should be morally and legally justified and backed by the US constitution which clearly states that wars should be wages if USA is threatened with an internal or external enemey.
Well in this case the internal enemy are the corporations, the jewish lobby, and The Democrat Party and the Republican Party.
So I guess we could use the US constitution itself to overthrow the capitalist system and both parties.
.
It may be technically legal but it's not moral and even Europe isn't supporting Obama bombing Af/Pak.
U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was not endorsed by the Security Council. Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law notes that the Security Council resolution in no way authorized military action. Rather, it called for the perpetrators of 9/11 to be brought to justice - suggesting they be dealt with as criminals through extradition and the judicial system, not war.
After invading Afghanistan and toppling the government, Washington won UN authorization for the new government it installed, and for its ongoing intervention through NATO. As a result, the U.S. presence in Afghanistan - like the one in Iraq - now has a veneer of UN authority.
UN legitimizes US war crimes in attempt to preserve the myth of international order to which USA is subject and to suppress the truth that the USA is a rogue nation-state.
physicscitizen May 29th, 2009 11:23 am............Does that also make the INDISCRIMINATE SLAUGHTER of women, children and infants legal? Where does that fit in the Geneva Convention? ...or any other war crimes treaty?
And, no I DO NOT like the "fact" that any organization may legalize war...I DETEST THE ENTIRE IDEA!
I hate articles like this that don't GET TO THE POINT! Pipelines, folks. Pipelines and (in Iraq) enduring military bases. Specifically, the TAPI pipeline (Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India) to tap Caspian Sea oil and gas, the International banker/corporate "prize", and deny IPI (thru dreaded Iran). Russia must also be cut out. This, and really, only this is what drives our policy in the region and all this blather about our security, or theirs, or women's rights is obfuscation. It is also what makes sense of, and ties these wars to, the massacre in Ossetia last summer. It's not "mindsets" or personalities. Obama isn't "bad" or "confused". He's a predictable agent of the motorcycle gang that runs the West and wants total global control. Stop talking like children. This is far worse than you think.
Great point. I'm really surprised the author, a PhD in Philosophy no less, is so starry eyed and myth driven. Iraq isn't an abberation, it's exactly according to plan...the same plan followed by the US for several decades. Read Shock Doctrine.
They may have to abandon TAPI because Afghanistan is just too tough, and turn their attention to IPI, perhaps grabbing Gwadar after splitting Baluchistan from Pakistan and destabilizing the northern part of whatever is left of Pakistan so that IPI can't be extended through Pakistan to China.
They may have to abandon TAPI because Afghanistan is just too tough, and turn their attention to IPI, perhaps grabbing Gwadar after splitting Baluchistan from Pakistan and destabilizing the northern part of whatever is left of Pakistan so that IPI can't be extended through Pakistan to China.
I think my name is Steven.
The claim that the USA is attempting to win the hearts and minds of the Pastuns is belied by the Fact that the USA is using their ethnic enemies, Tajiks, to surpress the Pashtuns.
The Afghan war is classic ethnic cleansing at the least and genocide at the most(witness bombing wedding parties).
I am not in Iraq at all. I live in symbolic Turtle Island in my symbolic Tipi. I don't have any "Troops" as you call them or any "Armies" at all. I live in peace with our European visitors to our land, & of course now everyone else & their brother from around the planet elsewhere.
At work now getting some work done but in awhile I'll be getting out into Creator's woods, as I live upon Creator's earth, and I am happy to be a part of Creator's creation. Love watching Creator's critters scamper & fly about. Love watching Creator's sunrises & sunsets as this is just another day of my journey being completed through Caesar's world.
Since our European visitors began arriving in this land we have to Render unto Caesar, too, now. I wonder if Jesus knew when he said, Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, that while it may look like Caesar is building some really grand swell paradise upon the earth in the long run all Caesar will really do is build Hell on Earth?
My if only Creator & Jesus could see this world now from where their vantage point. Maybe they've been watching & listening all along? Be like having free cable tv. Just sit there in the Kingdom watching every human being upon the earth, & keeping a file upon them.
Even keeping files upon those people who keep files upon other people.
All I do is live in peace with their Nation, & with our European visitors to our land, & now everybody else & their brother from around the planet. Happy Walmart is rolling back prices for me, but not just for me, but everybody.
They have a pretty good no hassle return policy, too, as I only have a little of our European's visitor's to our land God of Green Paper so I shop where the poor people shop.
Just another day of my journey being completed through Caesar's world. Just another day of living in peace with our European visitors to our land.
Indian woman here brought me some dinner last night while I was here at work even though she didn't have to nor did I even ask her, too. I said when they write on the Net about Saving the Earth I tell them to turn off their electricity.
She started laughing, gigling. Yeah, lets see them turn off their invention of electricity. See how fast the stores are empty of food if there isn't any electricty.
Of course with their earth destroying destructive system of living upon Creator's earth the food may eventually be shut off anyways as things get worse & worse upon the earth.
Who knows maybe they just aren't as smart as they love to boast about themselves being as they do not seem to even begin to know the meaning of the word humility?
Maybe Creator will show them one day they aren't nearly as much in charge of things as they think they are upon the earth? Who knows?
All I know is when I leave their world I won't need any more of their God of Green Paper to live my life. Revelation 19 does suggest that Jesus has armies in the Kingdom of Heaven. Does suggest he has plans of doing away with their world.
I always hope they know it is their world that Creator is brining to it's end that they think everyone should worship?
One of the things I love about the Kingdom of Heaven is it isn't a Representative Republic or Democracy & it isn't ruled over by any worldly Caesar including George Washington. I have a real long list of people who don't rule over the Kingdom of Heaven that Jesus said is not of the world of man, this world.
Yep, just another day of living in peace with our European visitors to our land. For those who have a little money I can give you groveling lessons so you can learn to bow down & worship our European visitors to our land, and their world as if they are God as that seems to be what they seem to want as they seem to think everything is all about them & their Nation? I don't know.
Life is good. What an experience! It's always best to forgive.
ShadowDancer, I of European decent would like to say how sorry I am that history turn out the way it did. It would have been far better for Mother Earth and humanity if the wisdom of native Americans would have prevailed over the violence and greed, that we, the sons of the Old world forced upon the New World. Our concepts of property and capitalism truly are sick. It is far better to think that the planet, and the animals, as well as the plants belong to themselves than to human beings.
We have taken the land and polluted it, killed most of the animals, and still you wish to live in harmony with us. I truly envy you. I know that violence is destructive, but I can't stop myself for hatting those same people you want to live in harmony with, even though they have not done nearly the harm to me that they have done to you.
I hope that your wisdom and patience becomes the new paradigm, but I just don't see it happening. The greed and lack morals of the people who run this country is beyond pale, they will not be happy until they place a dollar amount on everything. They think that in order to protect a natural ressource such as water someone has to own it. Whats next? Ownership of the air we all need to breath.
Mother nature will put us in our place. The hurts that we are inflicting on her will have to be paid for. Mountaintop removal, the pollution of her life blood, the senseless destruction of the biosphere all in the name of profit. That truly makes me sick to the stomach. I hope the day of reckoning comes soon. And when that day comes I will shed no tears for our society as we deserve to be removed from the face of the planet. I would pray to god for the innocent among us, but I'm not a believer. Perhaps you can say a prayer in my behalf.
ShadowDancer, your posts are always beautiful.
I don't want to criticize you, nor do I want you to change. But there is contradiction in your words. For one, you say to turn off electricity. Fine, but aren't you too using electricity? How else to use the internet and post on Common Dreams without electricity?
And you talk a lot about Caesar, European visitors and Jesus. Has it escaped you that the bible came to Turtle Island on European ships? It's a European religion and a European book. The bible was put together by Caesar Constantine in the 4th century. Of course the calendar which tells us it was the 4th century was also put together by another Caesar.
Believe in that European religion all you want, old Indian, but the real truth is found in the Creators woods that you love so much, in Creators sunrises and sunsets. Creators critters never tell a lie. Believe them, not those two-leggeds who say that God made us in his image and that animals have no soul.
Yes, as you say: Life is good. What an experience! It's always best to forgive.
Much LOVE, peace, good health and a long life for you old Indian. Aho.
Md, hey!
Nice post, I've percieved SD's esoteric, good and ethereal soul to be distracted at times by sad truths not deserving of existence in the same universe as his Spirit. The world is lucky, lucky he does not anger, snap his fingers and make it disappear.
Why is the US still in Iraq? Hello? Same reason we went there.
Hello again. Because Israel wants us there. SAME reason we are in AfPak.
FeithWolfowitzCheneyAipacPNAC9-11 Pleas God, "We need a new Pearl Harbor," and GOT it! This God delivers!
The Author of that Scary Sentence in the PNAC wish list right before 9-11 was ALSO on the 9-11 Truth Commission! Cool!
Transcending Irony.
Md, my growing family send their collective Love.
Hey azjoe, what's happening? Good to hear from you again. Thanks for all the love, man. Back atcha! I hope all's well with you and yourz.
My cat's trying to bring a (still wiggling) mouse into the house. No can do, puddy!
Sometimes I just need an escape from reality, and CD is no place to do that. You just get smacked in the face with reality. Reality? I mean the excessive human drama. The real reality is found in the quietude of nature.
Why can't we all just mellow out and play music? Especially those characters that are hell-bent on making life a hell for the rest of us. Like those characters you mention above. Geez, isn't it time they retire or something? Haven't they made enough money yet? Haven't they killed enough people already? Enough!
Now, here's a little antidote to the madness and sadness of the world. Watch this video. It's guaranteed to get you laughing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jedd2FiZTqM
I was thinking the same thing. Moderation is a better idea than taking it to the extremes.
CarlaWaters, I've been waiting for a chance to say Hello,
Nice to see you threading this sec. That guy I voted for, yeah I confess, I confess! this Sin again, should be impeached for lying and murder-AfPaq, Iraq. He broke his promises to me. And the world. But truly? I wanted to say Hello, if I recall correctly, to you and your s.o. out there on that humid east coast.
In any case, Cheers!
azjoe,
At this point, I think you're not alone in your regrets. Obama is turning out to be way overkill.
I'm glad to see you again and I haven't had as much time to read the articles or the comments on this site but even when I did, too much abstracts or just all that troll fighting going on. I wished I could stay and post more often but lots of work to take care of in this economic hell.
Cheers to you too ! :)
Nebraska Nathan1, are you for real? This occupation has already lasted longer than WW2. Just how long would you like for it to last, maybe until we are a broken nation and a broken people? Already here.
Alan,
Let me help you here. NN is nothing but a corn-fed troll. He has no feelings for others other than his own dirtbag body. Nebraska is already economically devastated and yet losers such as NN don't mind keeping it that way. NN cares nothing about the issues. All he cares about is Democrats winning. He's been doing nothing but trying to defend Obama and justify his carrying out Bush's agenda. Recently, he even insulted Cindy Sheehan and voicing his support for that old hag Peelowsick ! NN has been hurting people's feelings and irritating everyone on this forum with his senseless talk. It is best that we try ignoring that SOB and see if he goes away or reforms. I'm not counting on him to reform but most likely get lost and stay out.
Be patient? Like six years patient? We were supposed to be out of there in six weeks, not six years. Now it looks like we will be there forever.
In addition to you being rude, you are willing to have more Americans and Iraqis die for a mistake. If we got into Iraq fast, we can get out fast. But we won't, patient or not.
NN has no understanding or feelings about the issue of us being in Iraq. His cornfed brain only cares about electing more Democrats. It's best that NN be ignored completely.
The troops are already being withdrawn from Iraq. These operations take time so shut your mouth and be patient. Congress and Obama along with the military forces are working out the exit strategy carefully !
Hee hee. You're so naive it's almost cute.
Excuse me? Obama plans to keep 50,000 troops (at least) in Iraq, our military wants to change the SOFA so we will still have troops in Iraqi cities after June, 2009, the earliest Obama's "drawdown" will be "complete" is 2011, we will STILL have permanent bases there after that date, we will STILL have more than 100,000 mercenaries (aka "private contractors") there, and we have built the largest "embassy" (nicknamed "the fortress") in the world in Baghdad, and you claim "troops are already being withdrawn" and you tell us to shut our mouths and be patient? What planet are you living on?
Imagine the U.S. being invaded six years ago, cities destroyed, one million killed, and us being told to be patient while the invader plans to keep 50,000 troops here along with mercenaries and permanent bases.
Wake up, already!
Poor Nate continues to live on another planet devoid of contemporary common sense. His hero has stated many times that up to 50 thousand troops will remain indefinitely in Iraq. READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY little NATE: THERE IS NO EXIT STRATEGY! What Obama is doing is called a DRAW-DOWN. Do you know the difference?
Nebraska: Obama is a zionist, imperialist and warmonger. Obama never intended to withdraw from Iraq. He is an imperialist and a warmonger. He talked about Iraq war being “dumb” but he funded the war over and over again. He never said anything about withdrawing the private mercenaries or shutting down US bases. In fact, he has been sending his private mercenaries to Iraq as he is sending military mercenaries to Afghanistan to expand the wars.
Iraqis are calling the private mercenaries “Obama’s Blackwater”. There are as many private mercenaries in Iraq as military mercenaries, if not more. No news media, including this article, talk about what will happen to the private mercenaries.
Why is it that people constantly make excuses for Obama that if he did not do what he is told to do, he will be killed? No one made such excuses for Bush.
I have posted comments and links of articles in many sites, forums and bloggers about Obama, his record, his flip-flops, his eternal loyalty to Israel before he was elected, predicting all these and that he will be worse than Bush. None of this should come as surprise to anyone.
Nebraska: you are like most capitalist, Ronald Reagan democrats who are buying the Obama kool aid drink. Face it Obama is a capitalist. The Democrats are capitalists, and capitalism sucks, get used to it.
Ignore the trolls, folks, it's the only way! :)
nathan - are u a bill O'fuckball clone or what
shut up shut up
that's all i hear from you
fyi nate: the united states will never leave iraq
so you shut up
there will be 80,000 soldiers there until the day the oil dries up
that's whne operation enduring freedom will end
i understand you are frustrated - ill informed people often are
take my advice
shut up
You tell 'em ma ! When the oil dries up, the picture won't be pretty and no amount of alternative renewable fuels will soften the crash. Time to withdraw from Iraq, soldiers and contractors included, and show Mother Earth our respect.
P.S.: Perhaps Nebraska needs to be occupied instead of Iraq. :)
Dear N N
Why do you insist on telling other people that they should shut their mouth. We live still in a FREE country, and just like you we are entitled to our opinions. Stop being a DICK. If you don't agree with the views of the author or the commentary offered by other readers just say so in a polite manner. State your case and if is a compelling argument I'm sure you will change some minds. But if you continue to attack people, any legit points you may have will be ignored.
The majority of Americans at this point disagree with these military adventures in the near east. It has broken our economy. It has broken our moral standing, and most offensive of all, are all the broken Families(both the American and the Arab)who had to participate in this fiasco. Frankly I have no desire to see people being killed so that corporate America can swoop in and steal the resources of the occupied country. Then use their ill gotten gains to lobby the government so they can pollute the environment, and prevent other technology from competing in the market.
I hope that in the future if you disagree, you will state why that is, and perhaps some of your points of view can be argued.
Gee, Nathan, you're really in peoples faces today, aren't you? This is the second post that I've seen in which you're telling folks to shut their mouths.
If you don't like commentary then why are you on a political website?
Please show a little maturity either by responding intelligently or by not responding at all.
q
quickstepper May 29th, 2009 10:16 am...Nathan is best ignored.
"These operations take time so shut your mouth and be patient."
BULLSHIT! What does the kool-aid taste like?
This OCCUPATION was wrong from the start and it is still wrong!
'We The People' elected Obama with the understanding that there was "Hope & Change" in our future. Naive and idealistic for sure but we still expected this neocon imperative to come to a halt and exit Iraq and Afghanistan.
It burns my ass like a three foot tall flame every time the House and Senate approves more funding to continue these illegal and immoral occupations. I don't understand how they sleep at night much less have the unmitigated audacity to to take vacations and holiday breaks all the while soldiers and civilians are sacrificed to support a failed neocon agenda.
Bottom line, we have no right to be there and the people don't want us there.
imo
http://opinionsandreasons.blogspot.com/
Jim,
NN is just a cornfed Obama troll. He has no feelings or understandings on the issues and cares only about electing and retaining more Democrats. Trying to reason with NN is like trying to reason with supporters of David Duke. Don't feed the troll.
I can easily detect serious problems with NN's ability to see things clearly as opposed to simply trotting out the teacher's pet version of events.
But I don't get this business of being a...."cornfed(?)" troll. Do 'trolls' require particular care and feeding? Is the normal diet cheeseburgers and fries (for instance), so that we need to specify that this guy is a 'cornfed' troll? (Which I have to assume is the worst, nastiest variety of troll...)
I'm with you on this. Of course it took Nixon 4 years to get us out of Vietnam. Reference point.
You mean "get kicked out", don't you.
If he really wanted to get out, he could have done so much earlier - certainly without starting a new war in Cambodia. He didn't, so he got kicked out.
If Obama isn't careful, that might be his fate too. Reference point indeed.
Wow what a rewrite. Guess you never heard of the 73 Paris Peace Accords, huh?
Wow... someone who doesn't know history.
I hope you are not seriously suggesting that, had Nixon succeeded in defeating the North Vietnamese, he would have immediately pulled all US troops out of South Vietnam. That WOULD have been a first!
Even if he wanted to, he would have faced strong pushback from all kinds of vested quarters spouting the need to "protect freedom", "promote nation-building", etc., etc. Sure, the troop levels would have been much reduced from the levels at the height of the conflict, but I doubt they would have dropped much below 50,000.
I HAVE studied history, and I have found historical precedence to be a much better indicator of future behavior than a politician's mere promises. We didn't withdraw from vanquished nations such as Germany, Japan, Italy, Spain, or Haiti, nor did we pull out of regions of conflict such as Korea, the Middle East, or Cuba - even when it made sense to do so. I have no reason to believe Nixon would have bucked that trend.
No, Nixon promised to end the war, but he continued it.
He could have ended it. It's not like we "saved" South Vietnam in the end, is it.
My comments still stand.
My apologies, Massud will not.... I didn't realize evacuation from embassy rooftop was part of the '73 Peace deal!
There is enough material around, new and old, to strongly suggest Nixon actually had the Korean model in mind. If you recall, hostilities in the Korean peninsula ceased in '53, but US forces remain there to date.
You guys trump up the fall of Saigon because you like it better. Too bad it happened two full years AFTER the end of US military involvement in Vietnam. And the troop numbers were not sufficient for a North Korean model. Even today we have roughly 30,000 US military personnel in South Korea. How many were in South Vietnam in '75? Just embassy guards. In fact, there were only 50 US military personnel in Vietnam in 73'. So you lose.