Bush and Congress Dispute Armenian ‘Genocide’ Status
A Congressional committee last night defied George Bush, voting through a resolution describing the 1915 slaughter of Armenians as a genocide - a move the White House says would severely damage relations with Turkey, a vital ally in the Iraq war.
“This resolution is not the right response to these historic mass killings,” the President told reporters, hours before the House Foreign Affairs Committee met to consider the measure. Instead, the majority-Democrat panel passed it by 27 votes to 21. Barring an abrupt about-face by Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has long backed the resolution, it will now come to a vote by the full House. There, 226 members, more than a majority, have already signed up as co-sponsors.
In one sense, the showdown is a re-run of an argument that has periodically endangered ties between Washington and Ankara. But as joint letters to Ms Pelosi from all eight living former secretaries of state and three former defense secretaries testify, rarely have the diplomatic stakes been higher, and never have the prospects of passage been greater.
The confrontation between the White House and Congress comes at the worst possible moment, just as the government of Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan is close to authorising a major incursion into northern Iraq to strike Kurdish rebels, after 15 Turkish soldiers were killed in fighting in recent days.
Last week, Mr Erdogan telephoned Mr Bush to complain about the Armenian resolution, and warn that, if it passed, Turkey would take retaliatory action. Reprisals could bring a slowdown or even halt to supplies to US forces in Iraq that currently transit through Incirlik airbase in eastern Turkey, and possibly see the withdrawal of thousands of Turkish workers and support staff in Iraq.
“This is a choice between condemning genocide and endangering our soldiers in Iraq,” was how Tom Lantos, Democratic chairman of the House committee and himself a Jewish Holocaust survivor, summed up the dilemma. For its part, the White House is pleading with Mr Erdogan not to send troops into mainly Kurdish northern Iraq, and risk destabilising the country’s most peaceful region.
Passage of the resolution would inflict “great harm to our relations with a key ally in Nato and in the global war on terror,” Mr Bush stressed yesterday. In their letter, the former secretaries of state warned that, although the resolution is non-binding, its passage would ” endanger our national security interests”.
Ankara has spared no effort either. A high-level delegation from its parliament has been on Capitol Hill this week, warning that military co-operation would be jeopardised. The Turkish embassy is paying more than $300,000 (£150,000) a month to top lobbying firms to achieve that end.
The crucial language in the resolution - officially titled the Affirmation of the United States Record on the Armenian Genocide - calls on Mr Bush, in his traditional annual presidential message delivered every 24 April on the events of 90 years ago, to “accurately characterise the systematic and deliberate annihilation of 1.5 million Armenians as genocide.”
The Turks flatly reject such a description, claiming instead that, although hundreds of thousands of Armenians may have perished, the deaths resulted from forced movements of population and fighting as the Ottoman Empire collapsed during the First World War. Vast numbers of Turks also died, they say.
Genocide, says Nabi Sensoy, the ambassador to the US, “is the greatest accusation of all against humanity. You cannot expect any nation to accept that label.”
No one is in a trickier position than Ms Pelosi. Her San Francisco district has a large Armenian population, and she has long called for passage of a resolution specifically condemning genocide. Now she faces a choice between defying the White House, and backing down.
© 2007 The Independent
well, if we are to recognize what recent history has to tell us, whatever george dubya “dumbass” thinks to be the right and correct course is just the opposite.
he’s never been correct, and congress should see that and impeach the bastards before the entire world turns on us… not just the dark-skinned people.
Are we going to allow ourselves to be blackmailed into backing down when we KNOW what the right thing is to do? Are we going to speak the truth with courage, regardless of the consequences, simply because it’s RIGHT? Do the French have more backbone that we do?
Hey Mr. President,
What dost thou say about the current genocide in Iraq caused by you and your neocon minions??
I think that the America Empire has killed more Iraqis than the Ottoman Empire ever killed Armenians.
Amazing. While the Republicans are accumulating enemies for us, the Democrats are busy chasing away our allies.
something that happened in 1915,would not be a very pressing situation,at the moment,anyway.we have much more recent fish,to be fried !!THE ONLY GENOCIDE WE THE PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED WITH,IS THE ONE HERE AND NOW !!!! perhaps we could get back to that 1915 issue,later….if and when the dust clears.it is a very silly ploy by congress,they are not defying,anything.it is their usual modis operandi of being troublemakers and playing the old shell game,for the people.pathetic excuse for a ’show’
Yes this whtewatersally. I mean really yes it was awful, but it was 90 yrs ago. It is a paper declaration and has no bearing on anything. Why dont they focus on the current genocide in Iraq.
exactly,freia….WHY THE fUCK DON’T THEY???!!!HELLO CONGRESS THE GENOCIDE HAS BEEN GOING ON AND ON FOR QUITE AWHILE,NOW…THERE IS ONLY A HANDFUL OF THE HUMANITY YOU GENOCIDED,LEFT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT IT….ON TO AFGANISTAN..THEY ARENT DEAD ENOUGH,YET..I THINK I SAW SOMEONE STILL MOVING……YOU MURDERING DIRTY BASTARDS..IF THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA WERE NOT SO AFRAID OF GETTING ‘VAPORIZED’BY YOUR EVIL ASSES..THEY WOULD HAVE ALREADY HUNG YOU ALL !!!!!!
What do you know about so called genocide?
Where did you hear it? Turkish government
offered opening up all Ottoman archives for a
panel of HISTORIANS of ANYONE to come up with
the truth about this event. Let me tell you
what I KNOW for sure happened: My Turkish great
greatfather was tortured and murdered by his
Armenian neighbor and Russian soldiers using
rifle buts as they questioned him to tell where
he was hiding his money in Kars (Ardahan) after
Russians invaded. Only 2 of his 8 sons and 2
daughters survived to tell the story…
greenland,i am not saying,it didnt happen..i am not saying,it isnt important.i am saying that right here,right now,that is just a parlour game,meant to distract the american people from doing what needs to be done..NOW,(OR PERHAPS,YESTERDAY.THE MERCENARIES HAVE ALREADY BEEN MOSTLY PULLED FROM IRAQ AND ARE BEING RE-DEPLOYED TO AFGANISTAN…THE MARINES,ARE NOT FAR BEHIND..IRAN WILL BE USED AS A DISTRACTION…SO THEY CAN MORE EASILY SLAUGHTER AND GENOCIDE THE PEOPLE OF AFGANISTAN….AND I DO NOT WANT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN,BY MISDIRECTING OUR ATTENTIONS ON IRAN !!not that the ongoing turmoil and rumours of war WITH IRAN arent true or anything(THEY ARE TRUE..but never the less…they are already re-deployed to afganistan and poised for SLAUGHTER!AND WE THE PEOPLE MUST STOP YET ANOTHER GENOCIDE,in the making.
So Pelosi and the gang can’t do jack to stop the bushcon war machine, but they do have time to chase after this headline grabber, along with condemning Rush and defending Move-On.
They remind me of the do-it yourselfer auto mechanic, who in trying to replace his brake pads, breaks a brake fluid line, can’t handle that fix, so he starts waxing his car to impress his wife with “all he’s accomplished.”
Nancy and the boys - - bushcon is presiding over a geneocide right now, in the name of war profits and battle training for Blackwater, paid with MY tax dollars.
Get busy you idiots!
“Remembering History: The Armenian Genocide and more”
http://www.chycho.com/?q=node/1081
The best way to prevent history from repeating itself is to remember, and what better way to remember history then with photos. The following websites contain images that will be a part of our history for future generation to come:
- Hiroshima, the pictures they didn’t want us to see and why
- Photo journal of a German soldier on the Eastern Front
- The Iraq War as a Trophy Photo
- “War against Terrorism” in Afghanistan
- A Vietnam Photo Essay
- The War to End All Wars: World War I
And with all wars there is genocide, so we must also remember the end result of war:
- The Canadian Genocide of Aboriginal Peoples
- Native American Genocide in the United States
- Armenian Genocide
- The Holocaust
- Rwandan Genocide
- Genocide in progress: Darfur
The above is just a sample of our deeds.
If you are a Turk and mention the Armenian genocide, you go to jail for years. Seems to be something that strikes a Turkish nerve.
Since this might get in the way of our using Turkey as a staging base, I’m sure Cheney/Bush will break out some of the blackmail material in Cheney’s safe on key figures, then have them in for a “talk.” This will be followed by an abject apology to the Turkish government by the Congress and all will once again be quiet on the “Eastern Front.”
The Congressman who introduced the bill will be able to shrug his shoulders to his Armenian constituents and say, “I tried.” Then all will be well on his “home front,” too.
Meanwhile, the wars must go on!
salvia,you are a ’sage’one…i have always regretted not being around to preserve a little more of the indigenous americans,thank god,goyathlay(the true name of geronimo,the single most revered warrior of the new world,by all members of skull and bones)goyathlay,the finest human,to walk in the new world,had heirs…and they still work today,for that which is right(harlan)it is too late the genocide complete in the cradle of civilization, iraq….but it is not too late for afganistan,and i also hold a special place in my heart for afganistan…AMERICANS NEED TO PREVENT THE GENOCIDE OF AFGANISTAN BY the BUSHMASTER !it is already begun..but NOT TOO LATE,for them.
As far as the current genocide in Iraq, check back in 90 years for the truth
A tough issue, considering the U.S. is in no position to charge any other nation with genocide (and that the Ottoman Empire of 1915 is not the same thing as the Turkey of today). Kind of sets a precedent for a lot of other genocide declarations. There’s, glaringly, what happened with Indians in various parts of the U.S. that could be construed as genocide. Mexico and much of Latin America and the Caribbean have the same problem, usually worse. Then there’s Africa, from the Germans in Sudwest Afrika, to Rwanda and now the Sudan. European history pre-1900 is filled with many potentials, and I’m sure Asia and Australia have much to add to the list. So, where to draw the line?
Have to agree with many of the other posters above, that fixing our current mess in Iraq is a bigger fish, though in a roundabut way this declaration assists that: If BushCo loses Turkey, it loses part of its grip. But the Dems can’t possibly have been planning with such strategy.
I have a different concern. Why is congress doing this now? Even Bush calls what happened years ago genocide. EVERYONE calls this genocide–even some Turks. We’re playing with words here on an event that happened long ago in a country/government that no longer exists (Ottoman Empire). The Republic of Turkey had nothing to do with it. Sorry, but there are more pressing problems these committees and our tax dollars should be addressing:
Ending the Iraq War comes to mind
How about Darfur?
The atrocities going on in Myanmar?
There is no doubt a horrible crime was committed a long time ago; however, we can’t change that. What we can do is address the crimes going on today.
By the way, Turkey…start with the Wounded Knee Massacre Dec 29th 1890 and work your way back asking yourself how may Indians were murdered from that date back to 1492. Not enough? Toss slavery into the mix. You should be able to get your OWN resolution going.
stop dwelling on ancient history,for one f*cking momement.the immediate goal is to get them to admit to GENOCIDE OF IRAQ !!and to prevent genocide of afganistan !!if the armenians and turkey,have waited this long,im sure it can wait a little longer.larkspur,as to why is congress doing this now ???i thought,my first post the explanation,i posted at 1;33 pm,was a fairly good answer for your question…since you seem to find it lacking as a pretty good reason,i will leave it to the other posters here to answer your question,as i know they can handle it and i need to log off for the day,anyway…..peace all,s.
This is so transparent.
We need Turkey on our side because the Caspian Sea oil has to get piped through there. Anyone that can read a map can plainly see it.
Great comments, many agree that Bush is a corrupt company employee unable to make any sort of reality based conclusion that interferes with the greater goal of Hegemony. Bush I presided over genocide in Gulf I. This first slaughter was in the 100K+ range. The arrogant elder can comfortably chuckle away casualty figures in public, it’s a non- issue.
Wall Street with the Defense Contractors, enable, dictate and preside over genocide, are these people going to decide that what they do isn’t worth doing? Common sense is no, business is ok, profits are soaring. Understand that the people who represent you are bought and paid for, they will do nothing to stop the profitability of genocide.
I think you all are missing the point. This isn’t about Armenians or Turks, it’s about trying to force Bush to speak the truth about anything. By all appearances, he can’t do it. Some of us are wondering what will happen to him if he does. Given how worked up he is getting over the prospect of being re
Whoops, sorry for the interruption.
Given how worked up Bush is getting over the prospect of being required to call the Armenian genocide and Armenian genocide just once before he leaves office, I reckon something really terrible will happen to Bush if he utters the honest truth. Which is fine by me. In fact, I’m hoping it affects him more or less the way his “not torture” impacts “unlawful combatants” held in black site prisons he says do not exist while being denied the basic humanitarian rights he says they have no right to because they are in a place beyond the reach of U.S. or international law, despite being held there at the expense of the U.S., which he claims is bound by U.S. and international laws–including laws against torture.
Bush won’t give in, of course. He can’t. Something worse than “not torture” might happen if he tells the truth. So, Congress is going to pass this thing, Turkey is going to be pissed, Bush is going to defy the American law to win back the support of the brothers in arms who keep large parts of the Turkey under mid-level martial law (just the way Bush wants to run the U.S.), and maybe, just maybe, some Armenians somewhere will finally act on their convictions the way Democrats and all their supporters have not done for decades. Yes it’s a long shot, but its about as close to any hope for justice that I can come up with under the current circumstances.
snrk!
I am truly concerned with some of the comments I have been reading. I have always thought as a liberal my fellow “progressives” were the ones who realized the inhumanity that has plagued our world. From the Trail of Tears to the Jewish Holocaust we have been the ones to stand up against tyranny. Apparently it is not as important for some to recognize the Armenian Genocide. For decades human rights activists and Armenian Americans including the few survivors who are still with us have fought for justice and for international recognition. The opportunity to realize this historical tragedy is now possible (after failed attempts under the Republican held congress and others before it) and it is without a doubt that the Democrats must back this measure. We will never be able to stop the Genocide in Darfur and others if we cannot take steps to recognizing the first genocide of the 21st century.
The Armenian Genocide was a systematic attack on the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire. After the persecution of Armenian intellectuals in Istanbul on April 24, 1915 Armenian men, women and children were driven out of their homes raped, beaten and forced to walk through the desolate desserts of Anatolia to Syria. Many died of starvation and the few who made it to their destinations were burnt in caves or butchered on the spot. The Turkish government ordered their destruction and 1.5 million perished leaving behind their homes and their property. Today Turkey denies the Genocide and imprisons anyone who disagrees with its policies. The Genocide was documented by international observers and is widely recognized by international Genocide scholars. It is just as irrelevant in denying what happened to the Armenians in 1915 as it is for Ahmedinejad to deny the Jewish Holocaust and we must not make this mistake. Now I want to address some of the concerns I read about:
1) “Why is congress doing this now?”
Well you are just hearing about this now. The fact is there have been many resolutions introduced but they have failed in the past. After a few decades the chance for this resolution to pass is higher than ever before since the Democrats control congress and roughly 270 have co-sponsored the resolution.
2)“the Ottoman Empire of 1915 is not the same thing as the Turkey of today”
That’s true. But after the genocide the new Turkish Parliament recognized the crimes and began an effort to bring the perpetrators to justice. Until the founder of the Turkish Republic, Attaturk, disbanded this entity as “anti Turkish” (what a surprise) and continued on the road of persecution by attacking the remnants of the Genocide survivors. It wasn’t until the Red Armies intervention in 1923 that this persecution was halted which had brought the ancient Armenian population dangerously close to extinction. Germany has recognized its mistakes and Turkey must too besides the German government today is not the Nazi Government of Adolph Hitler. Hitler was quoted as saying “who remembers the Armenian Genocide today?” when asked what the world would say about the planned extermination of the Jewish population by his generals.
3)“it is a paper declaration and has no bearing on anything.”
That’s untrue. This bears great meaning especially for the many Armenian American survivors who escaped to the USA and continue to live in this shadow of denial. Let them die with justice in their hearts. And let us never forget these crimes against humanity.
4)“something that happened in 1915,would not be a very pressing situation,at the moment,anyway. we could get back to that 1915 issue,later….if and when the dust clearse”
The dust hasn’t cleared for 90 years. It is crucial to remember our past inorder to end similar brutalities that will surface in the future if we choose to forget. (That is precisely what is happing today). Passing this resolution will not interfere in our efforts to stop the Iraq war. The time will not come for this type of justice and speaking as someone who has spent his whole life perusing justice for the Armenian Genocide and other atrocities that go unpunished, I will not wait another decade for the “dust to clear.”
5)“the Democrats are busy chasing away our allies.”
What type of ally inhibits free speech, imprisons scholars that disagree with the governments views and persecutes its indigenous population? This does not sound like an ally to me. And passage of this resolution will not interfere in our foreign policies(as it did not in the recent Japanese case). Besides this is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue. This issue is an congressional issue and Turkey has no right to intimidate us and our pursuit for justice.
It is understandable that we are living in times when inhumanity is ever so present in our world, when war has murdered so many innocent men, women and children and left our nation deprived of civil liberties. And this is something we must bring to an end, but we must never forget the evils of our past or we will be doomed to repeat them again in the future. Passing this bill will in no way inhibit the movement to end the occupation in Iraq, therefore I urge America and the congress to do their part in bringing about this greatly delayed piece of legislation and I urge my fellow progressives to stand up for what is RIGHT.
War has always been a cover for mass slaughter and genocide. During the Jewish Holocaust of WWII and the Armenian Genocide in WWI. This is a fact that we must recognize.
hyehopes,
Economics also. Maybe natural disaster and viruses also. We’ll see what the future holds.
Hyehopes wrote:
“What type of ally inhibits free speech, imprisons scholars that disagree with the governments views and persecutes its indigenous population? This does not sound like an ally to me.”
Well, OK, but that’s just you. Think about it from the Bush/Cheney perspective for a moment. You’ve just described a few elements of their idea of a model government. It’s an inspiration, something to strive for! And strive they will, right after they get done starting the next war. Unless, of course, they need to use a little Turkish persuasion to get a few disloyal non-Bushies to go along with the program first. . . .
its about america admitting that IRAQ was and is genocide ! forcing our government to give it,its true label..if it quacks like a duck=it is a duck.i came back for just one more post,because i thought it could be important…to get it off my chest….the genocide of iraq is counted as blood on the hands of the ‘right’…if the people allow genocide to happen again,in afganistan..it will be counted as blood on the hands of the’left’…unless americans are freaks,that have more than just two hands..i dont think we can afford to lose one more hand..!!now i am signing off..dinnertime peace…all..
Hey hyehopes, nice response, very thoughtful. Your point number 2, about Turkey of 1915 not being today’s Turkey, was from my earlier response. Hitler’s actual quote translates more like “Who speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” There was no word “genocide” in Hitler’s time. Human history is filled to the brim with annihilations of peoples. The Holocaust took it to an industrial scale. Since then, and the birth of the word “genocide,” we’re quick to call any massacre a genocide. We use the word politically, psychologically, and for propoganda. A poster above mentioned Wounded Knee, which is responsible for around 300 deaths, and was instigated by drunk, trigger-happy soldiers …and not policymakers. Genocide is not the term to use here. Massacre is better, or maybe mass murder. I believe the Armenians situation is genocide, and I’m glad my government has taken this step. However, many posters here need to be more careful about the word Genocide. What’s happening in Iraq is not genocide …it is chaos and civil war with a potential for sectarian genocide around the corner. If it were a genocide led by the Yanks, it would have been well and done some time ago. If you speak in hyperboles, and everything’s a genocide, then the word Genocide loses all of its dark, hideous, evil meaning.
ANOTHER STUPID, STUPID MOVE BY THE DEMOCRATS. NO TIME TO IMPEACH THE CRIMINAL BUSH, WHO LIED AND HAS NOT SUPPORTED AND DEFENDED OUR CONSTITUTION. BUT TIME TO WASTE ON THIS 92 YEAR OLD SITUATION AND ENRAGE A VERY NEEDED ALLY. WELL, PELOSI, IF YOU DON’T TAKE THIS “OFF THE TABLE” YOU ARE THE WORST SPEAKER WE HAVE EVER HAD. TURKEY WILL TELL US TO DISMANTLE VITAL MILITARY BASES AND GET THE HELL OUT EVEN BEFORE IRAQ DOES. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. THE LAST TIME I FELT GOOD ABOUT THE USA WAS CHEERING FOR EISENHOWER ON THE BOSTON COMMON AND GARDEN. THERE WAS A PRESIDENT WHO GAVE US A SURPLUS AND WHO WOULD NEVER INVADE AND START A PRE-EMPTIVE WAR. REMEMBER THE VICUNA COAT? QUICK STOP THERE. NO SLEAZE IN HIS ADMINISTRATION. HOW ABOUT PASSING A GOOD RESOLUTION IN HONOR OF IKE AND TRUTH? AND DON’T GIVE ME ANY STUFF ABOUT REAGAN. HE WAS NOT A COMMUNICATOR, JUST A HEAD WAGGING OLD FUD.
pelosi..down for the count…kick her to the curb…15 more civilians,9 of them,children,just killed in iraq in raid on al-quaida…AL-QUAIDA..MY ASS..LIARS !!THIS WAS ALWAYS A KILLINGSPREE OF CIVILIANS…WOMEN…CHILDREN..FORCE CONGRESS TO LABEL IRAQ-GENOCIDE……!!!!
As I read over some of these comments, save for a few exceptions (Abris, hyehope), I am struck by the dismissive nature of the discussion. Denial, on the part of indoctrinated Turks today, is understandable. Compassion is in order. But coldness, from human rights advocates and peacemakers, always comes as sting to those who, as Armenians, have dedicated their lives to the universal struggle for peace and justice.
I do understand that many on this site lack the personal connection to this issue, and do not have as much information about it as other issues. Hence, the immediate reaction is trivialization, and dismissal. Perhaps what I am calling for here is a bit of empathy. If you know little about this issue, and feel that it somehow “does not compare” with “more pressing” issues, that’s okay. But please recognize that there are those for whom this issue is deeply painful. Do not dismiss of us in your quest for justice - especially when we walk beside you in that very quest. Instead, venture to understand why we care.
Do to the events of 1915, there are Armenians all over the world. Just yesterday, the New York Times reported that two women in Iraq were murdered by U.S. contracted mercenaries. Those women were Armenian-Iraqis. Unbeknownst to most, that family’s situation in Iraq is a continuation of what the genocide did, in 1915. My point is simple. Issues of human rights are fundamentally connected, and advocates of any peace and justice initiative would do well not to trivialize other issues.
Let us get out of the habit of weighing crimes to see which is heaviest.
In addition, I would caution some of my Common Dreamers from calling Iraq genocide. Iraq is an invasion. A war. In many ways, a set of gross human rights abuses that are, indeed, resulting is large-scale loss of life. As a student of genocide studies, though, I have to say that while I recognize the urgency from which these claims come, they are poorly argued here at best, and inaccurate at worst.
A study of the history of genocide would prove valuable. Genocide is a very specific crime and if one believes that Iraq constitutes genocide, I should hope that a proper argument would be presented. Simply throwing the word around loosely only leads to obscure thinking and imprecise language.
In order for a case to be considered genocide, there must be an intent to destroy – in whole or in part – a specifically characterized group of people. While war is a gross disregard for life, it is typically not a systematic expulsion of an entire people – simply for being that people, as are cases of genocide (i.e. Ottoman treatment of Armenians, in 1915, the Holocaust of WWII, Rwanda in 1994, Cambodia in 1975, etc.). In such cases, there exists evidence that there was a systematic attempt to erase the targeted people. For those who are students of these subjects, the nuances are, while sometimes frustrating, understood. For others, they are easily missed and dismissed. Nonetheless, there are differences that are worth attempting to understand.
And finally, despite Speaker Pelosi’s faults - to her credit - she has been an ardent supporter for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, despite the position’s extreme unpopularity. Ultimately, while she is upsetting many by not saying enough about the war, she should also be supported for efforts on a different front. Only those who are in complete ignorance of what recognition means to survivors of genocide would totally discredit someone who is working very dilligently for the integrity of survivors and victims - someone, I might add, who has expressed a willingness to defend her stance against Turkey and the Bush administration.
Universal peace and justice is something wider than the war in Iraq.
While we should fight for truth and justice in Iraq, we should also be mindful other issues.
That said, I wanted to copy and paste something written by someone, in a different context, which may serve to illuminate why we should seek to better understand the contents of this article rather than dismiss of the subject matter as less than important …
— — —
“Dear Members of Project Peace:
As a follow up to our discussions and updates about the recent House Resolution 106, re the Armenian Genocide, it pains me to pass on information about how Turkey is reacting. Aside from all-out threats to the US for passing the resolution (behavior seen before when France passed legislation condemning genocide denial), the Republic of Turkey has today found Arat Dink guilty of “Insulting Turkishness.” Arat Dink is the son of journalist Hrant Dink, who’s memorial picture hangs in our Social Justice House because he was assassinated earlier this year, by Turkish nationalists.
Arat has continued his father’s legacy, as co-editor (with Sarkis Seropyan) of a bilingual newspaper founded, in Turkey, by his dad. Arant and Seropyan have been on trial for a long time now, since they published a speech by Hrant, which discussed 1915. Today, one day after the votes passed H. Res. 106, both young men were found guilty. Revenge. Perhaps most sadly, Hrant is described by a fellow Turkish scholar as Turkey’s Martin Luther King, Jr. Dink called for reconciliation and brotherhood. He was killed. And now, his son is persecuted for publishing his words. For Armenians everywhere, these events hurt very much. Why, after all, is all of this happening? Because we refuse to let our history become silenced. That’s our crime.
For those in this year’s class on genocide, these events shine light.
Taken together with recent events in Burma, Israel / Palestine and Iraq alone, times are looking tough for peace and nonviolence. In terms of military complex, Turkey’s reactions to any Armenian protests may be comparable, and frightening. Indeed, as a last ditch effort, Turkey retaliates on her Armenian citizens, as a way to intimidate Armenians living in the diaspora. People live in fear … all over the world.
The work we do matters because we do it for those who cannot.
Together and deeply, let us pray.
I apologize in advance if anyone on this list objects to my last e-mails. I know that this list is not a personal information network. However, I believe these current events tie in, very closely, with what our group stands for. Moreover, as an Armenian member of Project Peace, my past is something that comes with me. It is something I have to offer, and perhaps what I may offer best. It is my hope that this information is somehow beneficial to you, and that others will take the time to share their own passions. Following, please find one article about the verdict, and another link to a recent MSNBC poll about the importance of recognition. Check it out.
BBC World News: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7040171.stm
MSNBC Poll: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21253084/
On campus, I have committed myself to bringing awareness to the situation in Burma, once I have the time to take on something new. Could someone else in our community help bring some awareness to what is happening re Armenians?
I would appreciate it and certainly help in any way necessary.”
— — —
That letter, I think, expresses some of the same points of reservation, relevance, interconnection, and deep feelings of importance that we have come across in our discussions on this forum. I hope it offers some understanding. Can we imagine any member of that community telling the student that the particular cause written about there does not make the “importance” cut?
I think many remain ignorant about the magnitude of the issue.
Perhaps we can all do our own part to change that.
Peace,
E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence (@gmail.com)
Its time to recognize the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians. This resolution is a resolution based on acknowledging Americas own historical archives which clearly document genocide based on the legal definition of genocide as first used in the 1940’s.
That definition is …any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
– Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article II
America needs to take a moral stand on this issue and recognize the genocide of the Armenians. It is not a side issue it is a major tragedy of the last 100 years.
Turkey is a country that has a law against insulting Turkishness (Turkish Penal Code 301), and you will be arrested and imprisoned or (murdered like journalist Hrant Dink- murdered this year in Istanbul) if you speak out against sensitive Turkish issues. Obviously Turkey is too scared to take an honest look at itsself today or its past actions.
Hopefully the Turkish lobbies money will not be able to buy the votes of our elected leaders.
Stilba you are right on the button. Thank you. Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.” America’s intent is not to destroy the inhabitants of Iraq. The war is imorral and unjust and has broken international law but it does not constitute a genocide. And just as a note someone above mentioned that:
“I think that the America(n) Empire has killed more Iraqis than the Ottoman Empire ever killed Armenians.”
This is an extremely uneducated generalization. 1.5 million Armenians died during the genocide and their deaths were the result of a government whose intent was to eradicate this group of people from the face of the earth. just want to point that out.
“The speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, says a resolution approved by a House committee this week characterizing the World War I-era killings of tens of thousands of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide will go to a vote in the House.”
Hats off to Pelosi Thank you for standing strong and facing the bullies, Bush, Erdogan, Harman and others who have tried to thwart this righteous legislation. kudos to Nancy.
Stilba you are right on the button. Thank you. Genocide is “the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.” America’s intent is not to destroy the inhabitants of Iraq. The war is imorral and unjust and has broken international law but it does not constitute a genocide. With that said the inhumanity this war has caused is irrefutable and I believe that we are responsible for the deaths of many innocent people in Iraq and beyond. And just as a note someone above mentioned that:
“I think that the America(n) Empire has killed more Iraqis than the Ottoman Empire ever killed Armenians.”
This is an extremely uneducated generalization. 1.5 million Armenians died during the genocide and their deaths were the result of a government whose intent was to eradicate this group of people from the face of the earth. just want to point that out.
“The speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, says a resolution approved by a House committee this week characterizing the World War I-era killings of tens of thousands of Armenians by Ottoman Turks as genocide will go to a vote in the House.”
Hats off to Pelosi Thank you for standing strong and facing the bullies, Bush, Erdogan, Harman and others who have tried to thwart this righteous legislation. kudos to Nancy.
armeniannonviolence..as you probably know,the kurds are(were turks before border split) turks..brother against brother..war,instigated by troublemaking bush regime and deadly fighting over oil.america should keep its big mouth shut,it has no right to slap a label on turkey or any other country,until it owns up to its own genocides..if the armenian people want to pursue this…they are totally right !!i have great sympathy for the armenians..and their right to bring this issue once and for all to some kind of resolution and conclusion…please do not doubt my respect for the people and this plight..my problem is bush..and the american congress…they have lost their right to point their bloody little fingers at anybody else…as we would say in america…it is the pot calling the kettle=black.i apologize if you think i was belittling this issue..i was not..i was belittling bush and wimpy congress….
Looking for a genocide? Look no further than the US genocide of 1 million Iraqis by the US.
My advice to the Turkish parliament: declare US war of aggression in Iraq as genocide, and the rest of the world except Israel of course) will agree.
While we are at it let’s declare US troops a terrorist organization too.
The truth must be said.
Its quite the opposite whitewatersally. Turkey has no right meddling in the affairs of the American congress. Some of our representatives have decided to take the path of justice and confront Genocide. And I hope the day will come when all the genocides and massacres of our past are condemned but in the meanwhile there is no reason to stop this legislation.
Nancy Pelosi has said “While that may have been a long time ago, genocide is taking place now in Darfur, it did within recent memory in Rwanda, so as long as there is genocide there is need to speak out against it.”
Honestly I am so shocked to see such opposition to what is a human rights issue. Is this not a liberal media outlet? And as liberals do we not stand up against injustice whenever and wherever it poses its venomous head? So why is there such hypocracy over this issue. We want to end the Genocide in Darfur but we cannot even bring ourselves to condemn the Armenian Genocide. Many are unaware that the Armenian Genocide was the catalyst for Hitler’s Holocaust against the Jewish inhabitants of Europe. With careful analysis and discovering that the Armenian Genocide did not have consequences for the perpetrators Hitler when about creating his own plan for mass extermination.
Understand this America, we must combat and confront past and present genocides and atrocities, especially that of the Armenian Genocide (since it laid the groundwork for future genocides being the first in the 20th century) or we will continue to see this evil tactic used over and over again.
Not a stupid move by the democrats at all but a move to take away the support of Turkey to the Bush gang’s future attack on Iran. Without Turkey the Iraq armed robbery could not have gone forward and that is why this bit of history is being pushed.
The Democrats are in an awkward position with regard to this War Of Terror if they stop funding it that could backfire so they’ve come up with this plan.
Could someone tell me how many Jews were gassed and their names etc. since I lived through that period and most of the people who died in the camps did so from desease and malnutrition. The gas chambers were used for delousing clothes and bedding and that is all.
After the 9/11 crime i have come to the conclusion people believe almost anything if the lie is told often enough.
I would like to thank all of those former secretaries of state for making it crystal clear that stating the TRUTH out loud, even if its a 90-year-old truth, can ”endanger our national security interests”. The phrase “national security” has gotten so vague that it now includes “whatever helps ourselves and our friends make more money or avoid guilty feelings”.
Now maybe we can start catching up to some of those ugly truths from just 60 years ago that would “endanger our national security interests”, like admitting Hiroshima’s true purpose or admitting that Israel was created by ethnic cleansing.
Then maybe we could catch up to the ugly truths from 40 years ago like the dirty wars in South America.
Heck, in 2027, Bush’s lies about Iraq will be just 25 years old, and then maybe congress can pass a resolution acknowledging that Iraq had no WMD, no ties to Al Qaeda, and no responsibility for 9/11.
By about 2080, when we are all dead, the information cycle will have speeded up so much that it will be possible for our society to acknowledge inconvenient truths that are just 5 years old!
hyerhopes..why doesnt turkey have a right to meddle ??it is their borders that the refugees of iraq are pouring over…why dont they have the right..we are the invaders..i think they have some right to meddle..why not?america no longer takes the high road and still they meddle,everywhere.and armeniannonviolence mistakenly referred to iraq as a war ?and armeniannonviolence is so concerned about something that happened long ago..stops short of calling iraq a genocide and councils us not to call it one…(say what??)..sorry,no comprendo…that is most certainly hipocritical..and just plain wrong.nancy pelosi has yet to perform one noble act on behalf of her own people..she is using the armenian issue to draw attention away from the truth that george bush AND nancy pelosi are guilty of genocide and if armeniannonviolence believes nancy is doing it for some noble reason he is just plain wrong about that,as well.
whitewatersally,
You speak of the Bush Administration as though it were detached from us. Whether we like to admit it or not, chatting on Common Dreams does not excuse us from the harsh reality that this Administration represents us in the world today. Why are we not out - leaving our cubicles and computers - demanding change? Detachment from the political process aids in the manifestation of grave violations.
The existence and recent visibility of H. Res. 106 is an example of years of hard work on the part of Armenians, and their supporters, in the U.S., doing all that they can to make sure that this issue is not forgotten. To date, the number of 1915 genocide survivors is small. Every survivor who has passed away, has done so beneath the cloud of denial. What Armenians want, I believe, is to halt the revision of their history, by having the nation that they live in recognize the conditions, which brought them here. In fact, as Balakian points out, in “The Burning Tigris,” the Genocide was a large part of American culture at the time. The U.S. would not be the first to provide such closure.
When we turn our backs on a Congressional Resolution to establish recognition, we are turning our backs on all the citizens who worked vehemently to get it there, and worse, we are turning our backs on the survivors, who are forced to live the length of their lives with a feeling of betrayal and uprootedness. It is time that Armenians did not have to defend or their history at every run-in with denial or ignorance. Official recognition is the means to that end. Rest assured, it is not Pelosi who conceived this resolution. – Rather, it was the work of people like you and I. Hence, we are not disconnected.
In addition, without recognition, at the very least, we have absolute historic impunity. It is within a culture of impunity that genocide remains a global reality, as witnessed today in Darfur, Sudan, where the government denies its own actions. It is historical fact that the perpetrators of the 1915 Genocide were actually put on trial, and found guilty in absentia. Yet, due to Turkey’s denial, this too is overlooked. Finally, every case of genocide is a human problem. This is OUR history here, not some detached tale of a far away land with dragons and unicorns. We share these chapters of history.
As for the Kurds: it is my understanding that the Kurds have long had a unique collective identity. Even during the times of the 1915 brutalities against Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, there was a Kurdish people. In fact, Ottoman Turks encouraged and allowed Kurds to murder and loot Armenians, in exchange for any loot that they acquired as a result. On the other hand, there were also many Kurds (and Turks) who saved Armenians, and refused to commit the atrocities.
It is a complex history but the crux of the matter is that Kurds are an independent group of people, apart from Turks. Today, Kurds continue to suffer great injustice in Turkey as they are shot and killed in cold blood by Turkish officers and arbitrarily accosted. This too is a sobering human rights issue, veiled beneath current “superpower politics.” For Americans, a real issue is not only Turkey’s meddling with U.S. affairs but, frankly, the large-scale effects of Turkish denial, as they manifest in American life. Turkey funds American University Chairs, to publish revisions of history, which deny the genocide. Turkey also buys U.S. politicians, and funds numerous propaganda campaigns, often under the guise of “dialogue.” There are far too many examples and names to mention here. A personal investigation into the matter would be worthwhile.
For those interested, the topic of denial was touched in the comments of another Common Dreams article, by Robert Fisk. Here’s the link: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/08/28/3459/
Peace,
E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence
PS: whitewatersally, why the name calling?
oops…many apologgies…i tried to edit it out and replace it with”just plain uninformed”but it was too late..im sorry but it really made me angry that you do not see the slaughter of a million iraqi’s as ‘genocide’yet you argue so passionately about an old but unresolved issue*ive got a newsflash for you,altho very important,those people have been dead for 90 years and america is getting ready to genocide another country(afganistan)and i have been screaming about it all night and just like iraq,nobody REALLY GIVES A crap,THEY ARE TOO BUSY HASHING OVER THE PAST..TO GET IT on IN THE here and now !!…meanwhile bush,nancy and the killing(cleansing)is NOW RIGHT NOW AND IT IS STILL GOING ON AND NANCY IS A PIG (oops,did i say that?)i meant “uninformed”
armeniannonviolence,or should i call you armenianpassiveaggressive ..you know not a thing about bush or me..what are you doing about your attachment ?
It never occurs to politicians that there are facts here. Why not decide what the criteria are for genocide then see if this qualifies? Let the chips fall where they may.
Truth - try it out it was 100 years ago.
“They remind me of the do-it yourselfer auto mechanic, who in trying to replace his brake pads, breaks a brake fluid line, can’t handle that fix, so he starts waxing his car to impress his wife with “all he’s accomplished.””
Ha !! At least the do-it-yourself mechanic ‘tried’ to fix it unlike the democ-RATS who went after the fluid lines with a saw.
Ofcourse in all this fake born-again compassion for the Armenians weve completely forgotten about our very own genocide against the Native Americans which was conducted maybe a hundred years earlier … but hey … compassion has timelines and deadlines.
–”For Americans, a real issue is not only Turkey’s meddling with U.S. affairs but, frankly, the large-scale effects of Turkish denial, as they manifest in American life.”
So Turkey should not ‘meddle’ in OUR genocide since we have exclusive rights ?? How is it possible that we can talk about Armenian genocide (most americans dont know who the fuck armenians are so it hasnt manifested itself here in any form) in one breath and in the same breath slaughter a million Iraqis ??
loyola lawyer says,’bush must take a moral stand on the armenian issue’..excuse me but isnt that asking a pig to fly ?armeniumnonviolence,accused others of being ‘dismissive’ and says he is some kind of expert on genocide,when it was you who was being dismissive about IRAQ!….and shakker by the time you come to any conclusion…a million more,will have died..people are dying,now..right now..and ‘genocide’be thy name !!
whitewatersally,
Well since you are unable to understand (no comprendo) I suggest you look at the definition of Genocide. America’s aim is not to destroy every single Iraqi life, despite the mass number of innocent causalities. There is a huge difference between the Jewish Holocaust and the systematic murder of civilians and what is going on in Iraq. A bloody civil war, a massacre yes not Genocide. It is important to understand the meanings of the words we use. And no, Turkey and other nations should not be meddling in American politics. Neither should we meddle in their affairs. And despite the fact that this happened long ago it is a human rights issue and it should not be denied yet again because Ankara is unable to swallow the truth. How can you utter such nonsense about Nancy Pelosi. This is why sometimes I feel we are unable to move forward as progressives. Shes no angel I know, but you take a good look at what we had to deal with last year and it is obvious the positive (yet stagnant) changes that the democrats have brought forth. Why don’t you review what Pelosi HAS been able to pass in congress such as increasing the minimum wage etc. There is still much to do in terms of restoring civil liberties and ending this occupation, but there is no reason to sacrifice this important, historical piece of legislation to please Turkey. The only hypercritical fact here is the inability of “progressives” like yourself to not be able to support this legislation. We all talk about the atrocities in Iraq and the chaos that the Bush cronies have thrusted upon Iraq and the world, yet some of us are unable to except this historical fact and are unable to support this legislation. What does that say? It seems somewhat hypocritical to take such a position.
How about this idea:
The French deemed this historic event as genocide recently, and guess what, the Turks kicked France’s ass out of Turkey!!!
What’s so good about that? Well, perhaps the strangle-held Congress GOT the message. If you piss off Turkey, they’ll kick your ass out…
Why is this good?
Because it’s one of our main routes into Iraq/Iran with military supplies, troops, and rendition flights no doubt. If we can’t use their airbase, we’ll have to come up with a contingent portal for a large portion of our illegal activities-if anyone will let it happen. Turkey did refuse to allow use of their airspace to intitiate this illigal campaign in the beginning, which means that Turkey is only a tentative player. We’ll run out of bribary $$ before long and then we’re gonna find that our paid friends are no longer our friends ’cause we can’t afford to pay for friends anymore.
If Turkey cuts its ties to the Iraq dabacle (even if they don’t get to kill all the Kurds after we turn our gaze elsewhere), they may be ready to tell the US to f&*k off.
After that, maybe other “allies” will find it easier to bail as well and start a snowball effect of the “coalition of the willing” turning into the a coalition for accountability instead.
Wishful thinking, I’m sure, but possible as well.
–”There is a huge difference between the Jewish Holocaust and the systematic murder of civilians and what is going on in Iraq”
The only difference is the method.
–”This is why sometimes I feel we are unable to move forward as progressives.”
Anybody who can shamelessly support the Democrats after all thats happened cannot call themselves Progressives !
Introducing a bill on Armenian genocide when we are committing our own genocide in Iraq is extremely hypocritical, which is why a lot of us react the way we do.
This is crazy. At a time of heightened anger at US policies in the Muslim world, the US choses to vote on a resolution that alienates the only democratic Muslim ally…and one whose population is already teetering on the edge of anti-Americanism.
Do you think the House should proceed with this resolution? http://youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=689
Gosh must I list the positives?
-increasing the minimum wage (after 10 years)
-ENDA
-Stem Cell Research
-cutting costs for students and decreasing student loans interest rates
-rolling back taxpayer subsidies for big oil
-making price gouging illegal
I mean the list goes on and on. Yes the war is not on this list and thats a shame and we must recognize that. But before you start attacking Pelosi it is important to look at what she HAS accomplished. And instead of attacking the Democrats why don’t you call, write, send letters to the Republicans as Randy Roads points out on her show every day. Funnel your anger at the Republicans who are keeping this war going and not voting for a withdrawal date with the Dems. And yes I am a proud progressive, I can see that Genocide must always be condemned whenever and wherever it lurks its evil head. The only difference isn’t the method it is the intent. Raphael Lemkin specifically coined the term Genocide in an attempt to explain what happened to the Armenians in 1915.
War may be an ambiguous term when defining the massive butchery that has been plaguing the people of Iraq, but America did not attack Iraq in an effort to wipe out its population and that is the significant difference.
No one is downplaying what is happening in Iraq. I have seen the pictures I know of the inhumanity there. And I have tried my best, as many of you have, to try to bring an end to this insane brutality (protests, school-speeches, walk-outs, you name it) but the fact still remains that as progressives we must stand up against injustice every where and any chance we get.
my concious would not allow me to support any legislation that would take the focus away from what is a vital,right now…it is too important..nancy pelosi is responsible for every life-lost,that might have been spared had she done the job,she was elected to do and abided by the will of the american people-which she did not !and you are busy arguing semantics and alot of esoterical horsemanure..while the killing goes on and the forces continue to build up in afganistan and criminals are driving america,straight to hell. ..a.n.v., i think you are detached from reality.
How can you state that you even have a conscience when you as well as many others fold under Turkish lobbying pressure when it comes to denying a heinous human rights violator? It seems that you are hypocritical to suggest that we are committing a genocide in Iraq and yet you do not wish for congress to pass a measure that would denounce a past genocide. I am not detached from reality in fact I have not been detached from this grim reality. I participated and continue to participate in as many anti-war events and protests as I can. But I do however at the same time choose to denounce the systematic butchering of my ancestors through this resolution.
whitewatersally,
I’d hate for our discussion here to be reduced to petty argumentation.
I deal with my attachment by resisting, nonviolently, as best as I can. I also deal with my attachment by learning as much as possible, spreading information and trying to put myself in the position to listen, and hear. Last year, I joined others in a walk across the U.S., to bring attention to the global issue of genocide. Along the five-month walk, our aim was to listen to Americans, and to learn about their perceptions of genocide. Aside from such action, I try to present at conferences and take my studies seriously.
The fact that between 650,000 and 1.2 million innocent people have been estimated dead in Iraq is no easy matter for me to digest. You seem to think I take the matter lightly. I don’t. However, the difference between you and I, when it comes to the term genocide, is that I utilize the term as it is treated academically while you use it as a general term, indicating mass killing and death. Genocide is not determined by the amount of people dead. Rather, genocide is a term, originally coined by Professor Raphael Lemkin, which indicates a specific type of killing - namely, a killing that is shown to be premeditated, intended to be total, and systematic in nature. There’s even more to it than that but for now, that loose definition will have to suffice.
Again, while one could make a fairly sophisticated argument for how Iraq may be seen as genocidal, more would have to be done than stating an opinion. For one, we would need evidence that the Bush Administration has planned to kill every Iraqi person there, and is actively engaged in such a process (is there an intent to destroy the Iraqi people, in whole or in part the way that there is, say, an intent on the part of the Government of Sudan, to target and kill off the African Sudanese? While there may be no documentary evidence of intent there, there is evidence of armed militiamen entering villages, killing all the men, raping and mutilating the women, children, and burning villages to the ground - in order to ensure unfertile soil and permanent exile). In some basic ways, you see, Darfur – as a case of genocide – is different than what is taking place in Iraq.
While many innocent people are suffering, as a result of reckless disregard, all Iraqi people are not being targeted and killed just for being Iraqi. Rather, the U.S. invaded Iraq and, after much wonton bombing and killing – in the name of fighting insurgents – has created a disastrous situation of violence and terror, in which there is no stability. In Darfur, however, being African means being dead; in Nazi Germany, being Jewish meant being dead; in Rwanda, being Tutsi, etc. I am not denying that the results of the invasion of Iraq may be much like the results of genocide. However, natural disasters can also yield similar quantitative results… The answer is not in numbers.
Someone you may find interesting is a scholar by the name of Adam Jones. Jones discusses the issue of structural genocide. As part of the discussion, he talks about the 1990s UN sanctions against Iraq, which resulted in the deaths of 500,000 innocent children. There, the argument is that the U.S. knew full well that these children were being killed and persisted in denying medicine, food, water, etc., thereby exposing intent to cause the consequences. Jones leaves this open ended.
While this post could grow to be much longer, it is very late and I must rest. I will close my comments here by saying that you have provided no “news flash” for me by saying that, “those people have been dead for over 90 years.” It has been nearly 93 years, to be accurate, and six of those people were my relatives.
My grandmother’s grandfather, Parnapas, died of typhoid in the forced deportations of 1915; his wife, my grandmother’s grandmother, Nazeli, returned back to Gayve with her two children, Oshin (my grandmother’s father) and Sirarpi. During the second wave of massacres, Nazeli was murdered and her sister managed to escape, with babies Oshin and Sirarpi, to Bolis. From there, the aunt took little Sirarpi to France and young Oshin went off as a boy worker, to Haleb. Eventually, grown up, he moved to Romania, and met Paylazun. Paylazun was the child of survivors Harusiag and Harut, who – sometime between 1915-18 – had also managed an escape to Romania.
Oshin and Paylazun married and had two children. One of those two children was my grandmother, who continues to light a candle for her grandparents on every April 24th. The 24th of April, 1915, is the day Armenian intellectuals and community leaders were round up to be killed, and has remained the symbolic day of mourning for Armenians, around the world. This is one fourth of my family story.
An estimated 1.5 million of “those people” were killed during this time of our history. – For nothing more than being Armenian. And nearly every Armenian, living in the diaspora today, has a similar story – including Armenian-Iraqis who now suffer so deeply yet again. Again, I ask that you be a bit more sensitive in your expressions.
Despite what you may think, I, like you, care very deeply about the innocent people killed in Iraq (and Afghanistan, Palestine / Israel, Burma, and Darfur, for that matter). I too am outraged and I understand why you “scream” out as you do. Our only differences lay in the way that we understand the academic term “genocide.” As for the Armenian Genocide, I understand that too a bit differently than you do. Perhaps at some point, you will support the official recognition of this history, in efforts to nurture a more global consciousness – one that will not allow us to stand by as so many die.
“If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention.”
None of the issues we have discussed ought be taken lightly, and I believe them all to be deeply interconnected. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.”
Peace,
E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence (@gmail.com)
hyehopes and a.n.v… you guys had me going there for awhile..but i just re-read everything you guys have been spewing back and forth and i realize now,that you are wolves trying to squeeze your fat fascist-asses into your ’sheep’ costumes….just a couple of wild and progressive guys on their way to pick up their protest signs for the next anti war demonstration….yea,right,when pigs fly…nice try…….goodnight..
what the hell is congress doing wasting time on a 90 year old atrocity? there’s a war going on right now with atrocites RIGHT NOW. more BS resolutions. yes and let’s piss off an existing ally as well.
America with it’s endless denouncing of old events, yet it seems unable to stop the current murdering going on in Iraq.
i have an idea. let’s get congress to vote on resolutions denouncing the inquisition, Rome’s conquest of the world, human sacrifics of the aztec empire, and perhaps even offences made by cavemen against each other! Let’s get congress to make a resolution to denounce cat/dog enmity, shark attacks and people swearing at each other on the bus!
let’s go thru all the atrocites of the past, make resolutions and waste more taxpayer money! meanwhile not even children’s health programs can be funded by this set of imbeciles. Let’s piss off one of america’s few remaining allies.
I am really surprised to see how easy it is for so many people to make judgments on millions of people when they know so little about them or their history. I am Turk who has recently moved to US for graduate studies. To be frank I don’t even know where to start, i hope I can shed some light on at least few issues so that the other readers can see both sides of the issue.
1-Armenian Genocide
a - Law #301 - insulting Turkishness
This law, unlike many people assume, has been applied to certain cases due to its vagueness in wording ( basically taken out of context). In the new constitution that’s being worked on, it’s going to be removed. So far nobody has been put to jail due to this law, all the lawsuits filed are under 301 have been discontinued. The reason it has caught so much attention is, like many other countries, some ultra-nationalist freaks tried to take advantage of this vagueness in wording by trying to suppress opposing ideas. Luckily for us, they have not succeeded yet. And obviously it has not helped how biased certain European and American media can be on certain cases.
In relation to this, nothing prevented us from discussing killings of Armenians and that era with our professors in discussion panels, nor I have not heard anybody in my life who had any kind of hatred towards Armenian people.
b- Armenian genocide
Before I move on to historical facts, I want to emphasize that I had many Armenian friends and of course this was always a topic we had productive discussions on. I had Armenian friends who lost their family members in that era to attacks by Turkish and Kurdish gangs, while I also had many “Turkish” friends ( I’ll explain later why I used double quotes here) to attacks by Armenian gangs.
Obviously, much more Armenians have died during that time, which can not be denied. About The exact numbers I can not say anything , before I go on with a detailed historical research. ( I’m sure like many of you do, I also prefer not trust words of politicians in topics of history, politics… actually I wouldn’t trust them no matter what the topic is).
I am not saying there was no Armenian Genocide. I am also not saying there was a Armenian genocide. Because this decision is not up to me nor politicians. It’s up to historians. Turkish and Armenian communities had great difficulty in finding a synchronized time to investigate this together. In earlier years, Turkey was more close-minded on this topic, while in last decade, despite the Turkish government has allowed permission to all Ottoman libraries and records and many universities including mine tried to invite Armenian historians for discussion, none of the Armenian historians seemed interested.
No matter what the results turn out to be, I find it extremely annoying that these events, although I know it has affected many lives so deeply, is still causing hostility of both sides towards each other. I believe only very few survivors from both sides exist now.
Going on, I want to point out few additional details. I come from a family where my mother is half kurdish, half greek ( from thessaloniki) and my fathers side comes from Crete. I have heard stories how our relatives has been forced from Greece, leaving all their belonging back there and it wasn’t just few people, many killed, many died on the way. Listening to these stories, I might have grown up with a hatred towards Greeks. But I haven’t, and Greece has not still acknowledged any details about these events. But I chose not to accept that hatred, because you can not just accuse millions of people due to events in the history. And definitely you can not solve any problems you have between two countries by simply blaming each other, hating each other. Look at Armenia today, its people are in great poverty, maybe the worst conditions in this region. I can only imagine if even half of the money spent of Armenian lobbies in Washington was actually sent to Armenia as aid, how much better life so many people could have had.
2-Kurdish minority & situation in Iraq
Now I come to the quotation marks I have used. Unlike many people assume, in Turkey you can not differentiate between people as Kurdish or Turkish by looking at them. By definition Turkish means a citizen of Turkey rather than an ethnic race. How absurd would it be to assume such an ethnic separation exists after nearly a thousand years of living together in the same region.
PKK ( recognized as a terrorist group by US, EU and Turkey) has caused more than 30,000 lives in last 25 years. Thanks to them, I saw a few months old baby shot in the forehead, I’ve seen people taken off the bus and killed, bombs went away at places which I passed from the previous day. PKK, although acts as if fighting for Kurdish freedom, just does the opposite. They have killed numerous Kurdish Turkish citizens themselves, just because they thought these villagers were aiding the army. Thanks to them, our ultra-nationalist freaks have finally found basis to try to distribute anti-Kurdish sentiments through our nation. I know previous Turkish politicians have been too conservative about minority rights, still assuming the country would split into two if they did so. But things have change a lot since those times. The main issue depends not on the ethnicity but on poverty. The biggest Kurdish population in Turkey is in Istanbul and you don’t see them complaining. But if you go west, it’s not only Kurdish but also all other people living in that region. Unfortunately, not enough money has been put into business for developing that region, and one of the main reasons, besides incompetent politicians, has been terror. Tell me one country besides Haliburton that would invest money in a place where there is daily bomb attacks.
Anyways, in the light of these, I believe such a resolution is not going to help Armenians at all. Of course Armenians in US might definitely feel better, but it just increases the hostility between Armenians in Armenia and Turkish people and the people that will end up being more hurt economically and socially will be not Armenians. I can understand the point of view of Armenians in US, but to be frank, I think before coming to this, they might have tried to fund the conferences we tried to held or at least try to get few historians from both sides together.
whitewatersally your comments are extremely ignorant taking into consideration you know nothing about me. Your disingenuous personal attacks are not even worthy of a response. There is no reason what so ever I should prove myself to you anyhow now that I can see that you have nothing to offer to this discussion other than spite.
As for your comment godlessrant, Congress has been trying to pass this legislation for YEARS now. And it has always been striked down by Turkish Lobbyi$t pressure. Now, for once, it has a huge chance of passing. Yes I am aware of the war, but there is no legitimate reason to go scrape this historical piece of legislation. And who cares who we piss off. Sense when is it right to suppress justice for appeasement? Thats all for me tonight I wish people would actually think outside of the box once and a while GOOD night.
” It seems that you are hypocritical to suggest that we are committing a genocide in Iraq and yet you do not wish for congress to pass a measure that would denounce a past genocide”
This is horseshit. So to suggest we are committing genocide in Iraq -(apparently its not genocide but a sideshow where a million Iraqis are slughtered but oh nooooo we are not to blame) - is hypocritical because we havent denounced the Armenian genocide (?) is so twisted that it is laughable. These apologists for the republicans and democrats crawl out of nowhere and try to take the spotlight away from our crimes. Our politicians and their slimy apologists will say and do anything to take the focus away from the GENOCIDE/WAR/SLAUGHTER we are committing in Iraq … and YES … we are responsible … us AMERICANS. So STFU and stay focussed.
Wow your just a nasty angry pessimist spewing all sorts of hatred and trying to label me and others who do not agree with you as apologists. Sounds like your just using the Republicans tasteless methods. And it is very logical to state that you cannot deny genocide resolutions and cry out to end genocide at the same time. And as I said above, Iraq has seen massacres not genocide which is a systematic attempt to wipe out a group of people. Refer to the dictionary before you start ranting and raving about something. And frankly there is no point in talking with you because you cant even control your temper or your cursing tendencies. And passing this resolution, which is a completely symbolic move, will in now way slow down the anti-war effort or congresses ability to stop the war.
I say let’s call it holocaust to break the monopoly. We now have 3 holocausts—I’m also adding Iraq.
Ohm how I miss Orwell….
Bushspeak : English
—————–
preemtive strike: attack
stay on offensive: continue attack
diplomacy: thugery
liberation: occupation
enhanced interogation: torture
historical tragic mass killings: genocide
weapons of mass destruction: weapons of mass distraction
ethno-sectarian competition for power and resources civil war
Just so you can get a feel of the power and the clout of the octopus known as Israeli lobby groups including AIPAC in America, consider the following:
Unlike that holocaust denier (Ahmadinejad), this genocide denier (Bush) is for real. Where the former says he’s been intentionally misquoted, the latter has actually announced his denial publicly. Now, did you hear a beep or a word of protest in the mass media? Heard any protest or sound from the Lapdog or French Poodle countries? No. But you did hear the cacophonous noise worldwide condemning the other guy.
Bush is pressing the Congress not to designate the Armenian massacre as genocide. Can you possibly imagine what would happen if he was asking the same for the holocaust?
I think we are all missing the point here.
There is no American congress man/woman stupid enough not to see that Turkey is to be kept happy right now!!!
I believe it is all a diversion.
The same momment that the congress recognizes genoside and the Turks shout injustice….Turkish troops are operating within Iraq borders!!!!
Why is America letting Turkish troops invade Iraq????
Is it not that the troops are there to protects Iraqies and stabilize the country????
Letting Turks invade and start killing within Iraq borders does not seem to help in stabilizing the country…let alone the ethical isuues.
Let’s not forget the 2 million plus vietnamese women and children AmeriKKKa murdered
if it is fair for the “devil” to accuse mankind before god..than it is fair for mankind to accuse the “devil” before god…
If I may quote our pResident’s “favorite philosopher”, Jesus: “Why do you see the speck that is in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the beam that is in your own eye?”
I have no objection to Tom Lantos calling on Turkey to acknowledge its genocide, but it should only follow a resolution calling on the Bush administration to acknowledge its war crimes and calling on congress to acknowledge its complicity.
Hey, Pelosi: Let’s denounce Canada next!
“June 12-14, 1998: The first independent Tribunal into Canadian residential schools is convened in Vancouver by IHRAAM (International Human Rights Association of American Minorities), an affiliate of the United Nations. Evidence is submitted by dozens of aboriginal witnesses to crimes against humanity. The Tribunal concludes that the government of Canada and the Catholic, United and Anglican churches are guilty of complicity in Genocide, and recommends to the United Nations that a War Crimes investigation be held.”
your arguements do not hold water,because the bottom line is…….the genocide of the civilians of iraq…HAD to have been a premeditated and deliberate act,or it would not have been allowed-to go on for so long!!!
America throws stones but has the biggest glass house of all. America has no right to even deliberate regarding the genocides of other peoples when they are the most genocidal nation in human history. Even if Iraq doesn’t exactly fall under the accepted international definition of genocide, America’s atrocities committed against the aboriginal population of the Americas, the forced relocation, enslavement and murder of millions of Africans, Vietnam, and many American proxy wars in Latin America, Indonesia, and elsewhere certainly do qualify. This simply a stunt of rich diaspora reactionaries to toss around in their gated communities and cocktail parties to make themselves fell better, while far more insidious crimes go unpunished.
Turkey can simply re-define ‘genocide’, declare its innocence, and carry on merrily. Americans have done this sleight of hand time and time again for their transgressions of human rights, so why not Turkey? Turkey may have committed genocide in 1915 (the Armenians were presumably not innocent babes either) but it is the height of hypocrisy for the US Congress to self-righteously point fingers at the Turks when it has gone along with the genocide of the Iraqi people for the past 15 years. Do I hear the jingle-jangle of the pieces of silver that California Armenians are dangling in front of Pelosi and her Democratic ilk? And what the hell is wrong with the West that is happy to accuse other societies of crimes but never almost never seems to acknowledge its own (Native Americans anyone?). I am not Turkish and hold no brief for it, but hypocrisy pisses me off.
rule of engagement:if it is the right of the”devil”to try the nation of people-before god…..than it is the right of the nation of people to try the “devil”-before god !……..it is our rights as a citizens of the united states of america and legal participants of this democracy of america- to try “OUR !” government,if we feel it is strayed from OUR principals !
CORRECTION:it is our DUTY as citizens of the united states,to try our government if it fails us by not upholding to our ’standards’if we as the people fail to try our government..we are not living up to OUR end of the agreement….
The Ottoman Empire had long been disintegrating by 1915, and the Ottoman government was unable to hold on to its European territories, North Africa and many islands. The Great War came, and The Empire foolishly sided with Germany.
Russia attacked; she supported Armenian dissidents and the heartland of Turkish Anatolia was invaded. Previously, under the Millet system, the Armenians had been known to the Ottomans as ‘Our most favoured nation’, so highly were their commercial, industrial and administrative skills considered.
Ottoman Turkey was being attacked from within, and reacted like a wounded creature.
After the First World War, there was a war for national survival and there was a huge and very painful transfer of Greek and Turkish populations across the Mediterranean.
Previously Turkey had been a complete mix of nationalities, languages and religions - now, today, Turkey is 99% Muslim and nationalism has caused the people to call themselves Turks, whatever their true ethnic (whatever that word means) mix.
Yes, many Armenians were killed. But yes also such mass killings have gone on since the beginning of time and America is as guilty as any country. It serves the United States Very badly to keep attacking modern Turkey, which is and has been a great ally, and is the only bulwark of democratic reliability in the entire region. Turkey has been very loyal to the US, and this vote by Congress is a mean-spirited, partisan and unnecessary attack.
“Wow your just a nasty angry pessimist spewing all sorts of hatred”
Well … im sorry to upset your smug sense of righteousness. If you are not angry you are not reading the news. If you believe the democrats are going to save the world you are very wrong. Twiddling your thumb about semantics is plain ridiculous.
–”I say let’s call it holocaust to break the monopoly. We now have 3 holocausts—I’m also adding Iraq.”
But you might take away the spotlight from the ’suffering’ Israelis !!
americans do not commit genocide. they slaughter and murder. everyone knows this is a much more civilized, and acceptible way to kill people.
I am going to attempt to solve this impasse.
1. You humans are, and always have been a predatory species.
2. Your human life has no value, and never has had any value to the elite, other than as a labor source for enrichment. And politicians! they readily sacrifice you and yours to the alter of war profiteering.
3. It serves no one for emigrant descendants to belabor the injustice of historical attacks on long since dead relatives of a brutal bygone era in a part of the world that saw countless atrocities throughout time. Forget about justice. Forget about vengeance. Holding up an Armenian Holocaust from your oral family histories which translates to a lobby of congress, as an issue of the day, is a halfhearted effort by Dems put pressure on the Head-Chimp-In-Charge. Will it work? I don’t think “off-the-table-Polosi” has the courage to put even a non-binding resolution to vote; but we’ll see.
Whitewatersally is crying out for sanity and logic as Iran is about to fall into the same bottomless holocaust as Iraq is going through. In fact all the posters here are passionate and frustrated and I empathize with everybody.
May I make a suggestion?
Instead of living in the past, which the middle east loves to do, why not worry about the situation that is going to kill more people than all these events put together: Just the Greenland ice sheet breaking up causing a 20 ft worldwide sea rise? The recent 455 ppm reading of greenhouse gasses that absolutely ensures new massive human suffering on a scale none of us has ever witnessed before. No. NOT in a hundred years. All that is out the window now, read the advancing glaciers story.
Costantenople (Istanbul) will be destroyed along with Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco etc, etc.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/08/4409/
pac - out
We must speak the truth and stand by the truth whenever the opportunity arises (no matter who we may lose as an ally). It was a genocide then and should have been stopped. It’s our duty as living beings to recognize and stop current genocides. It’s not one or the other, we must strive to do both. This doesn’t detract from our other duties…including stopping our current government, it simply means we need to get busy and now.
I will jump in here again and defend whitewashsally. Yes what happened was awful, but how does the US Congress acknowleging it have any bearing on lives lost 90 yrs ago, does it have any bearing on anything now (except a messy relationship with Turkey). I mean it is a paper document with no teeth and no binding promises. So we acknowlege the genocide 90 yrs ago and turn a blind eye to the genocides since then. I can probably name at least 20 off the top of my head. To me this is plain and simple smoke and mirrors and distraction from the real issues at hand. Jesus Congress has far bigger fish to fry such as impeachment, the war, the potential war with Iran, healthcare, the economy, the environment, passing all those treaties that Bush backed out of. Where do we start. No, instead they waste our tax money with irrelevant symbolic gestures like condemning Move On or declaring a 90 year old atrocity a genocide.
Pulling this historical event out of the global trash can so you can call it genocide is insulting to the people and leaders of Turkey that had nothing to do with the actions committed 90 years ago
Our moral authority is not in question because we don’t condemn enough foreign governments. If anything, our problem is that we condemn too many foreign governments and don’t spend enough time evaluating ourselves.
Turkey should respond by condemning our ethnic cleansing of Native Americans to shut up these windbags who are wasting their time on the senate floor.
It’s sad to see so many people here saying that the a formal resolution stating that the Turkish atrocities committed against the Armenians were a genocide is unimportant or diplomatically harmful. We condemned the Iranian president for his own genocide denial (and rightfully so) but now our own president is doing the same thing…and many Americans are backing him! How about we put him on the front page of the New York Post with EVIL written along side his picture (which I’m not opposed to, by the way)? It’s funny how what we call evil really only pertains to what our leaders find to be as such. We will say that the Iranian president is evil because of his genocide denial, and yet, in the case of our own leaders’ genocide denial, we will act as if it’s the smart thing to do. Interesting sidenote: Dick Gephardt did support this resolution on the Armeian genocide, but renegged because the Turkish government hired him to lobby for them. Apparently, one’s malevolence is equivalent to how much one pays.
Acknowledging the Armenian genocide might hurt diplomatic relations with Turkey? Well, why don’t we stop referring to the Jewish holocaust as a genocide to appease the Iranian president? Hell, it might stengthen diplomatic relations. Sounds sick, doesn’t it? Exactly my point. It is sick to deny atrocities, no matter who they were committed against. And that whole “it was 90 years ago” argument is pure bullshit. The Jewish holocaust was 70 years ago, and we acknowledge it, as we should. If we stopped talking about everything that happened however many decades or centuries ago, we would be devoid of almost all knowledge of history. We often repeat the phrase “Those who fail history are doomed to repeat it,” but we never really take to heart its meaning. It’s not talking about a high school history class where if you fail the final, you’re going to summer school. It’s talking about people repeating their mistakes after failing to learn from them the first time. By the way, it’s not as though we hate history. How many popular movies have been made on events that happened anywhere from less than a century to over a millenium ago? “Titanic,” “300,” “The Passion of the Christ” - all movies that generated a subtantial amount of public interest in the actual events upon which they were based. Am I to understand that historical tragedies are only relevant if they have the potenetial to be box office smashes and secure a place in our mindless pop culture? I guess so. For that reason, you’d think the extermination of 1.5 million people would be something that would warrant mass amounts of attention.
What I’m getting at is that genocide is not something over which you can pick and choose. Innocent deaths numbering anywhere from the thousands to the millions is not somthing one can easily dismiss. To deny one is to deny them all. I would NEVER deny the Jewish holocaust, and I find anyone who does revolting. However, to say that the Armenian genocide is historically questionable or that acknowledging it would be diplomatically harmful is just as revolting, especially since the very word “genocide” was coined (albeit years later) because of what happened to the Armenians. Genocide is not some exclusive term to be used in only certain cases of mass murder. It’s a way of acknowledgeing a failure of humanity so that it can learn from its mistakes. If we can’t acknowledge this (unlike most of Europe, which has), then we have shown that humanity is indeed incapable of learning from its history.
This is less about genocide, than it is about usa arming Peshmerga and MEK to destabilize Iran, which has this unintended? consequence for the Turks. Bring on the recession/ depression. That’s the only hope to rein in your idiot govt.
when are they going to own up to the genocide of the Native Indian populations on the american continent?
Armenian Nonviolence: I’m not denying those horrible events took place and I appreciate Armenians educating people about it. I say that without trying to be patronizing. However, this Congressional resolution is a waste of time. It’s a “feel good” busy body resolution that makes people think that Congress is really doing something. Congress has insulted my intelligence with this resolution. Congress should end the illegal and unconstitutional war against Iraq. This resolution is a distraction from it and I am not having it!!!
So every piece of legislation congress approaches that has nothing to do with Iraq is “disruptive” and should be abandoned as not to interfere with trying to end the war? That sounds a a bit destructive. I for one will not stand by and watch as Turkey again bullies my representatives into conforming to their version of history. Every year we watch as this legislation is shot down. And every year throughout the year its a different excuse. Whether it be upsetting business contracts and now the war, its disgusting. And so another decade has gone by and this legislation continues to fall through the cracks. The truth of the matter is this legislation wastes time every year it is introduced. Its time to except the this historic tragedy and move on. In fact it wastes a lot more time to deny this resolution than to accept it and move on. And frankly the distraction argument is extremely weak. Congress is suppose to represent the American people. And the congressmen and women who support this legislation and who have worked hard for many years to get here represent those survivors and human rights activist who voted for them and who believe in justice. I think many of us have much to say yet few of us have properally analyzed this resolution’s historical significance.
If Congress represents the American people, why does it harp on about events in the Ottoman Empire ninety years ago. Surely there are more pressing concerns? No, this resolution smacks of partisanship and hidden agendas. Perhaps the US government wants to alienate Turkey, so as to have a totally hostile Muslim world in which it can start the great Final Conflict which will result in world destruction and the assumption of the Rapturous chosen ones into Heaven to sit on the right hand of God …etc…etc.
I can’t think of any sensible reason to keep attacking the Turks.
The United States has few enough friends in the world these days; to alienate Turkey, which has been a bulwark against the Soviet Union since the inception of NATO, and is a modernising nation of proud and decent people is a sort of madness. But then, the world is getting madder with every day that passes.
That is not true. If you had been paying any attention to the news you would know that the President opposes this legislation. And those representatives have been trying to pass this legislation for YEARS now but have failed because of Turkish Lobbying efforts.
And no one is attacking the Turks. There is absolutely nothing in this resolution that attacks Turkey or Turks. This legislation is symbolic and acts to reaffirm a historical fact, the Armenian Genocide. Turkey will not act against the United States because it is in their best interest to befriend America. They have a lot more to loose if they severe their ties because of their inability to recognize their previous governments atrocities.
Symbols are terribly important.
And if this resolution isn’t attacking the Turks, what is it doing? If you feel attacked, as Turkey does, chances are you are under attack. And this by a country with no interest in the Ottoman Empire whatsoever. Perhaps the US Congress might like to re-visit the Spanish American war if it wants recognition of past misdemeanours? No, patently there is another agenda here.
The President and the Secretary of State understand the seriousness of the situation; sadly Congress, which acts like a provincial debating society, does not.
forextrader: I fully appreciate where your view comes from but (and I mean this with the utmost respect, without any intent to insult) I feel that it is misguided. If I have not successfully expressed myself on here, I just finished posting a comment that took quite a bit out of me, on a different article. While there is a lot there that you already know, I have further detailed my reasons for (1) why this thing is not a waste of time, and (2) is not properly understood by the American public (the progressive community, in particular - while neo-con American voices simply throw all talk about this issue away, in obedient and cold disregard [business as usual], the progressive community is totally MISUNDERSTANDING it, and, unwittingly, joining those cold voices). Turkey, in recent days, has begun banking on all of this.
That post is under the following article:
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/10/17/4646/
So that folks on here don’t begin to despise me, maybe we can explore this further via e-mail.
Peace,
E.S.M.,
ArmenianNonviolence (@gmail.com)
Ulpian: Your last post expresses a similar misunderstanding to those, which I have seen so often over the last few days. This issue has not “just come up.” It has come up, consistently, for many years. Until recently, however, because Pelosi’s predecessor, Dennis Hastert, was house Speaker, Turkey never made a fuss about the Foreign Affairs Committee (FAC) passing this same resolution (as recently as two years ago, with an overwhelming vote). Turkey knew she had Hastert under her pocket (as she does others now, by spending unforeseen amounts of money on Ame