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Majority of Americans Think Torture 'Sometimes' Justified
New Poll Finds Americans Favor U.S. Isolationism, Acting Alone
A new poll shows that a growing number of Americans feel that the United States should "mind its own business internationally" when it comes to foreign affairs.
The title of the Pew Research Center poll, which asked 2,000 U.S. citizens about United States' role in the world, says it all: "Isolationist Sentiment Surges to Four-Decade High."
The survey found that almost half of Americans (49 percent) think the United States should stay out of foreign affairs and let other countries get along the best they can on their own. That number is the highest in 40 years and represents an increase from 30 percent who felt that way just seven years ago.
Andrew Kohut, the director of the Pew Center, calls it "an extraordinary spike in isolationist" sentiment and offers a possible explanation.
"I think part of the reason here is the American public's focus on a bad economy, also feeling badly about the world," Kohut says.
"There are two wars that the public thinks are not going well, terrorist concerns are even greater than they were four years ago, so the American public is not looking fondly at the rest of the world."
Paralleling the rise in isolationist sentiment among Americans is a sharp rise in unilateralist feelings.
Fully 44 percent of Americans -- the highest percentage in more than 45 years -- say that because the United States is "the most powerful nation in the world, we should go our own way in international matters, not worrying about whether other countries agree with us or not."
Skepticism On Afghanistan
The survey's results also reveal a distinct lack of public enthusiasm for President Barack Obama's foreign-policy approach, especially toward Afghanistan.
The poll, which was conducted before Obama announced that he is sending an additional 30,000 U.S. troops to Afghanistan, found that only 32 percent of the public favored adding more U.S. soldiers to the fight. Forty percent said they would like to decrease the size of the U.S. force.
There is also skepticism that the war is worth fighting. Fewer than half (46 percent) of those surveyed said they think Afghanistan will be able to stand on its own and resist the Taliban and other extremist groups once there is no longer an outside force like the United States to help them.
James Lindsay, the director of studies at the Council on Foreign Relations, which co-sponsored the poll, said those results could mean problems for Obama as he tries to make the case that the country must deepen its involvement in the Afghanistan.
"My guess is as long as the public and influential [thinkers] are persuaded that Afghanistan can't be fixed, it's going to be very hard to sustain strong public support for staying in Afghanistan," Lindsay says.
The survey also found that just half of Americans (51 percent) approve of Obama's overall job performance on foreign-policy issues.
Americans also think the United States' role in the world has diminished considerably in the last decade. Forty-one percent said the United States plays a less important and powerful role as a world leader than it did in 1999 -- the highest number who have ever said so, according to the polling agency.
China's Rise
By comparison, more Americans than ever now see China's role in the world, especially economically, as having grown. Forty-four percent said China was the world's leading economic power, compared with 27 percent who said the United States is.
In February 2008, before the global recession hit, 41 percent of Americans considered their country the world's leading economic power.
But Americans also see China's new role as an economic powerhouse as something to fear. A majority of those surveyed (53 percent) believe China is a threat to the United States.
Kohut says Americans don't necessarily see China negatively, but they do worry about what its rising power means for the United States.
"I think in an era where the public feels that China has surpassed the United States economically, and people are feeling very, very badly about the American economy, it's not unreasonable that people would conclude that China represents a threat," Kohut says.
Americans' top three foreign fears, according to the survey, are: Islamic extremist groups like Al-Qaeda, Iran's nuclear program, and international financial instability.
Russia, on the other hand, is no longer seen as an enemy.
"Russia has obviously over the years declined as a threat in the view of the public. The public certainly doesn't put it at the top of its list as it once did, and we only get 2 percent of the public saying, 'Russia represents the greatest danger to the United States,'" Kohut notes.
"You get 21 percent saying Iran represents the greatest danger to the United States."
A little more than a third of Americans are worried about the growing tensions between Russia and its neighbors, while two-thirds say North Korea's nuclear program constitutes a major threat to the United States.
Obama's declaration that, "under [his] administration the United States does not torture," doesn't seem to have changed many Americans' minds about the necessity of using harsh interrogation techniques.
The proportion of the public that says torture is at least sometimes justified against suspected terrorists has actually increased slightly over the past year.
Just over half of Americans (54 percent) say torture is at least sometimes justified to gain important information from suspected terrorists, compared with 44 percent who said so 10 months ago.
The Pew survey was conducted between October 28 and November 8 of this year.
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138 Comments so far
Show AllA majority of Americans are now pro-life and an overwhelming majority believe the military should decide everything about wars etc; etc;. In other words Americans are not too bright and are more and more right wing and filled with religious nonsense and unthinking patriotism.
You forgot that they also believe in creationism...or at least do not accept the modern theory of the evolution of species.
I think this set the whole stage. In order to actually 'believe' something as wholly idiotic as creationism you basically have to reject not only the scientific method wholesale, but you have to decide that actual facts and evidence are irrelevant even in principle.
Once America comes to that conclusion it will believe anything that the chosen God-figureHead pours into them.
Don't forget the 'Birthers' - and the new outspoken member - Palin.
But I could be wrong !
It started in my generation,
Alternate teaching methods where accountability for a teacher or student's performance changed to Pass/Fail attendance only schemes with overcrowded/unavailable classrooms or no books under Reagan and led to Pseudo-subjects like "home economics" and "lifemanship" b acceptable substitutes for math and science to the point where many of my classmates could not make change after a transaction nor could they fill out a coherent job application or resume. Religious fanatics from the school board to the white house looked down on public school, primarily because it was secular and outside their control. I'll never forget the careful measured words of biology teachers explaining that the next section, Evolution, may be in conflict with some people's religious beliefs and if that is so, you may want to adjourn to the library. The religious wackos left, and we continued on with the most fascinating story the world had ever heard.
It was the equivalent of a religious experience for me, (and not a contrived one by a smelly old man in a robe). Finally, the truth about were I came from and what the meaning of life is, was suddenly revealed to be in astonishing detail. No fairy tales, distortions, lies or intimidation that the flock of sheep in the library were subdued by. Just raw 100 percent science. A live frog was sacrificed for the occasion, and under my expert scalpel (my father had taught me to hunt as a small boy), a whole new world of education opened up to me.
And then Ray-Gun cut the budget again (this time as president) and lab supplies and exercises became a thing of the past.
God do I hate Republicans. They are selfish, ignorant, blood-thirsty, foolish, crooked, corrupt, abusive, authoritarians with no concept or knowledge of how America formed or why it was formed in the first place. The fact that half the country falls into this camp, and that they feel torture is acceptable (at least the frog was disconnected at the brain stem before surgery) shows me that the founding fathers were right. The end of America would not come from an invading Army according to Jefferson, Adams and Franklin.
It would come instead from corruption of the people.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
As much as I hate neo-conservatives and corporate billionaires, I would not torture them. I'd end their lives quickly, thus showing more compassion than they do. But I would hang their bodies in public places with signs telling of their crimes. This land would stink for awhile, but then, I think the general public deserves a little bad smell to remind them of the price of freedom.
But then, I have never been surveyed.
"I'd end their lives quickly"There was a reason why the French proletariat women sat calmly knitting and chit chatting while French aristocrats' heads fell into the buckets,in the thousands,to the sound of loud audience cheers, as their Guillotines functioned 24/7.STARVATION.It would be a complete catalytst to watch your own child starve.We in this abundant country,never have gone through that. Americas people still have food on their table at this point.When that no longer is the case,Fox or no Fox , attempting their propaganda control tricks,there will be an uprising, that may make the French and Russian revolutions look like child play.The torture ,in your face info is designed to make Americans afraid.AFRAID WON'T COUNT,WHEN THINGS GET REALLY BAD.CONDITIONING ONLY GOES SO FAR.
"over half of Americans (54 percent) say torture is at least sometimes justified". Does that mean we are sometimes justified to torture Americans? Cool!
I think it means you can only torture 54% of any American that you find and decide to torture. But ONLY AFTER you get someone to point a finger at them, jump up and down, and accuse them of being a terrorist.
Hearsay is really the most important evidence of all these days you know.
[But ONLY AFTER you get someone to point a finger at them]
Ok, I'll do that job. And I'll only charge 75$ per yank, a far better price than you'll get when buying terrorists in Afghanistan. (Yes, this is sarcasm. An emoticon should be designed to indicate a sarcastic comment....)
Deal!
I'm an American and I don't want to be tortured and the best way to prevent this happening to the people I like is to be the guy who instigates atrocity rather than protest against it. My check is in the mail!
"Americans' top three foreign fears, according to the survey, are: Islamic extremist groups like Al-Qaeda, Iran's nuclear program, and international financial instability."
The international financial instability was the only one on the list that is "made in America."
The other two were made in Hollywood.
I have to disagree that Iran's nuclear program was made in Hollywood. Had the US taken a strong stance supporting the Non Proliferation Treaty and held Israel's feet to the fire in the 1970s, Iran would not have felt obligated to have kept its nuclear energy ambitions secret.
"Andrew Kohut, the director of the Pew Center, calls it "an extraordinary spike in isolationist" sentiment and offers a possible explanation."
If "isolationist sentiment" means that we shouldn't go around the world poking people's eyes with a sharp stick, then yeah, we should be isolationists.
Or, we could realize that in this global world what goes around comes around...very quickly.
"Do unto others..."
There's isolationism and then there's isolationism.
One kind shuns cooperation with other countries in combating global warming, stopping the nuclear arms race, fighting poverty and AIDS and so on.
The other kind opposes militaristic adventurism, supporting coups and right-wing regimes, invading countries for trumped up reasons and so on.
I'm opposed to he first kind but am most definitely in favor of the second kind. It's critical that when we talk about isolationism we're careful about just what that term means.
Absolutely. I would like to know just how the isolationist question was phrased when it was put to the people who were polled. The results may be completely skewed by misunderstanding.
Unfortunately the torture question is a bit more difficult to misunderstand and I'm very much afraid that the results of that poll may be true.
There's a saying that the people get the government they deserve. If over fifty percent of Americans think it's acceptable to torture another human being then they have no right to complain about being spied on, milled down by police when they're peacefully demonstrating or arrested and held without charge because the Commander in Chief decides they're a threat to the corporatocracy. Anyone who can sleep at night knowing that their tax dollars are paying for the torment and pain of another person deserves whatever they get in the way of a government.
Do you really think that these "Good German" types are the ones who are going to be spied on, beaten up by police at demonstrations, or arrested for being "a threat to the corporatocracy"? No, it's not the supporters of torture and unilateral US aggression who are targetted, it's the opponents. The supporters will cheer on the repression, just as they cheer it on when it's carried out against Muslims.
That said, I agree that there are likely some flaws in this poll. Honestly, depending on how some of these questions are framed, I framed, I might agree with them, particularly when it comes to US foreign policy. I'm not an isolationist, but obviously the USA needs to scale back its foreign adventurism. And when it comes to torture, these respondents may simply be considering the worst case "ticking time bomb" scenario. Then again, they might just be a bunch of sadistic psychopaths, like many in the military.
I am sorry about what is about to be written here, but your "ticking time bomb" reference set me off. I am sure that you do not accept it any more than I do but I feel compelled to remind readers of some items that came out of congressional testimony.
If you look at the congressional testimony on Torture from people in the FBI who witnessed it they put paid to that scenario. One of them, when specifically asked by a Republican about that scenario, slammed the senator in no uncertain terms. He pointed out the practical reality that the torture of these people took months, and even water-boarding took days, before they were fully broken. And of course, the investigator pointed out that NONE of the 'information' then given was reliable and some of that 'information' was such a clever lie that it wasted precious time in blind alley chasing. So unless that time-bomb was set to go off in several months, and assuming the torture victem was sufficiently mentally competent AFTER enduring weeks of torture, then he likely would just lie about the location anyway.
We should not give ANY credit to that stupid Jack-Bauer-type scenario. It is a straw-man. It is a fiction and must be recognized as such.
I agree 100% and didn't mean to imply that the BS "ticking time bomb" scenario has any legitimacy or basis in reality. I know that it's a straw man, i was just pointing out that if the question was simply "are there any circumstances in which torture is jutified," it's possible that many of these respondents, being "24" fans, probably had that sort of time bomb scenario in mind. Of course, that is a problem -- the fact that so many people are so utterly deluded by TV that they don't know the actual reality of torture. Then again maybe they do know, and simply think it is perfectly fine to torture people. Either way, we're fucked.
The answer of course, is to get rid of TV, and instead make them stare at the near-corpses of the victims of torture. That's what did it for George Orwell as a British soldier stationed as a prison guard in India. His essay: "Shooting an Elephant" is little known, but directly applicable to this situation. He became a life-long despiser of EMPIRE after that tour of duty staring at the white skeletons in lock up and being a part of the abuse of the local population.
But the Armies of "Little old Church-ladies" in the US are the real facilitators of war with their blind support of religion at the offering plate and it's inevitable circuitous route to arms dealers via "Faith-Based-Initiatives". But even worse that that, this hatred of Muslims is exploited by the MIC and by Congress to make daylight raids on the US Treasury in the name of stopping the dreaded BOOGIEMEN "over there, before they come over here".
The popping up of Mosques across the "Bible-Belt" of the US (which is getting fatter and fatter) is the real reason they are so alarmed.
If you ask me, all religion is a mental disorder. And if a religious nut is in charge (Bush or Palin or Huckabee) look out. We are then in constant danger of WW3.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
"And when it comes to torture, these respondents may simply be considering the worst case "ticking time bomb" scenario"
Nice way to rationalize and even doubt a poll from a reputable organization. Why do we always have to question the veracity of scientific polls if they point to evidence that is unpalatable to us. It is like doubting “The lancet" journal when it extrapolated that a million Iraqis have been killed since 2003 and not question the same scientific journal when it reports that a million people were killed in Rwanda genocide.
Respectfully, 3645, I always have a problem with this type of thinking: The idea that we (the American people) deserve what we get.
As if the American people live in a vacuum and are not influenced by - shall we say - outside forces.
We have an education system that is rotting. One that is moving toward conformity and test score 'results' for a 'prize' (government funding) all while eschewing anything that resembles 'critical thinking.'
Very few have help from their parents. Many adults are missing-in-action, too concerned with their financial woes, or physical appearances, or pursuit of market-driven happiness - of being good little consumers - to again, think 'critically.'
And then there is that 52-inch plasmatic 'elephant' in the (living) room. Spewing ads, ads, ads, along with violence, unchallenged lies, unheeded fear, and tabloid affairs posing as 'news.'
I don't think anyone 'deserves' to be a slave - which is what we've become.
To Old Peculiar,
Thanks for the reminder about not being judgemental or vengeful. I let my anger get away with me. Apologies.
But, I had this discussion with our group leader in October 2001 when we were demonstrating against the original attack on Afghanistan. He said the same things you've brought up; the difficulties people have in this country finding out what is really going on. Despite the media indifference to antiwar demos, at that time, less than a month after 9-11, people were so outraged that we would be standing in the streets saying "Don't attack Afghanistan" that we did get local TV coverage, more than once. (We also got more than a few threats, but that's another story).
I feel that however hard it is to find out the truth behind the mainstream news it is possible IF you care enough to go and look for it. I am no sort of tech whiz; if I could go on the Net and find the right places to go then anyone can. Despite financial woes, despite months of unemployment, despite losing jobs because of my views. I know the illiteracy rate in this country is deplorable and I willingly give a pass to anyone who honestly can't read; but I have trouble giving a pass to people who are literate. Anyone who has ever bought a second hand car or decided which apartment they should rent has the rudiments of critical thinking; deciding if people are telling the truth and if not why not. The information is available, not easily, but available.
The fact that people are being bombed, that people are being tortured, is out there even in the mainstream news. Or at least the accusation is, even if it's denied. And once you've heard the accusation that's your cue to investigate. There are libraries with books and computers (despite the attempts to starve them into closing down). Bombing and torture are not an intellectual question; they're a moral question. They're the responsibility of everyone who pays taxes and thus provides the means for the bombing and torture to continue. Sorry, other than illiteracy I can't think of a reason for people to not fight to stop the slaughter.
How about laziness. There is a reason "sloth" is among the Seven Deadlies.
You obviously have a thirst for knowledge as do most readers of this site. Unfortunately this thirst is not nurtured within our present culture. We are constantly being 'dumbed-down,' the result of which is a complacent, compliant, fearful populace.
"The Matrix" (the first one) brilliantly points out that, even given the 'truth,' some of us would prefer to go 'back to sleep' eating a slice of prime rib, drinking a rich cabernet, and finishing it off with a smooth Cuban cigar.
A thorough discussion of the survey can be found at the Pew Research Center's website, http://people-press.org/report/569/americas-place-in-the-world. There's a link to the complete report in the upper-right corner of that page; it links to http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/569.pdf.
The question that Heather Maher seems to be referring to in the third paragraph of this CD article is:
"The U.S. should mind its own business internationally and let other countries get along the best they can on their own"; 49% agreed and 44% disagreed.
The following related question also appears in the survey:
"Since the U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world, we should go our own way in international matters, not worrying too much about whether other countries agree with us or not"; 44% agreed, 51% disagreed.
And if I read the poll corrently, the USAns support a third psychopatiic form of "isolationism": "Don't get entagled in other countries affairs and leave us alone to invade any country that bothers us."
Military invasion, of course is not "getting involved in other countries affairs", anymore than when schoolyard bully is getting involved in the affirs of a nerdy kid - he's just beating him up! So, military invasion is still "isolationism".
Nope. It's global these days and it's green
This only proves that about half of the population is of below average intelligence and a certain percentage of the above average are sadistic.
Well over half of the people "detained" were proven to have little or no connection to al Qaeda or terrorism and were little or no threat to the U.S. at all... and some of those were held for as long as seven years before they were released.
I wonder how these people who "favor" torture would have felt if they or one of their children had been one of those being held and tortured.
On top of all that, it has been clearly proven over the centuries that torture is just about useless to provide worthwhile information.
The figure of people "detained" who actually had no terrorist ties is closer to 90% than "over half". The other 10% will likely never be charged of a crime because all of the 'evidence' against them has the taint of torture.
And then,eventually, the US is going to have to pay-out many many millions to the families of those that we have tortured and make a humiliating apology to the world. ...... gosh, we've never been THERE before.... We never learn.
In her classic work The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990, Marilyn B. Young recounts how torture by the Diem government against the local Vietnamese population instilled deep resentment by the peasants against the South Vietnamese government and caused many Vietnamese to flock to the side of the NLF. Likewise the feeling of the majority of Americans that torture is somehow acceptable by the United States is certainly not shared by the Afghans. These heinous actions by the U.S. will, as in the example of the former Diem regime in South Vietnam, certainly backfire against the Obama administration and will only incite more Afghans to take up arms against the U.S.
Also, despite Obama's bizarre denial, torture is most certainly being carried out in places like Bagram Air Forces's secret CIA prisons where alleged terrorists are beaten and tortured on a daily basis. But for Obama to admit the obvious would jeopardize the myth that the United States is supposed to be one of the good guys and that torturing prisoners is only reserved for people like terrorists and communists. More and more people around the world, and especially in third world countries, are now realizing that the U.S. now ranks among the bad guys in the world.
"More and more people around the world, and especially in third world countries, are now realizing that the U.S. now ranks among the bad guys in the world."
Third world? just as there arent third class humans theres no third world but developing countries...
Also I believe people of the world have known the usa is a terrorist/thief/bully nation (to put it lightly) for a long time, its only recently that gringos have come to realize they are internationally feared and despised.
I sometimes think of an analogy for the US as the one house in the development where the lawn has not been mowed in years, a clunker Camaro sits on concrete blocks, tattered "Bush/Cheney 2000" signs lay scattered, a dog barks at all hours through the night and there is a strong smell of ammonia from cooking meth.
The owner is the Chief of Police, and so no action can be taken.
Love the analogy. We could also add to the scene a clothesline of dirty laundry hanging out back and a band of 800lb. gorillas romping about in the front yard whose presence the occupants refuse to acknowledge.
What's wrong with clotheslines? And since when would clothing on a line be dirty? There is a hint of white, suburban, "community covenant" liberal snobbishness going on here.
You should get your facts right before you state something as stupid as "community covenant liberal snobbishness.
Fact: Gated community residents do lean to the right – they are more likely to support conservatives, and in most cases less likely to support liberals and socialists than non-gated residents.
Fact: Gated communities represent the privatization of space, and are sequestered and segregated from the rest of society, their residents are, or become, fearful of others, distrustful of government, and supportive of individualism and self-sufficiency.
Ref: Walks (2009) - http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/122352592/abstract
Texas has the highest number of gated communities in the US. One would hardly call Texas nonpartisan.
And since when would clothing on a line be dirty?
Airing one's dirty laundry is a metaphor referring to the revelation of things about one's self you don't want others to know.
What's wrong with clotheslines?
There's nothing at all wrong with clotheslines - unless you fall asleep on one.
pjd412: I had to laugh at your comment! I once lived in a neighborhood in Lincoln, NE, where the covenants would NOT allow anyone to have a clothesline in the backyard -- despite the fact, that each backyard was enclosed inside a tall wooden fence.
I never understood! I remember laughing when the real estate agent went over the rules, who then gave me a disapproving look of reproach.
HUMANO
Your anger at me is severely misplaced. One could certainly substitute the word under developed for third world. But I certainly was not attempting to disparage and smear the people who live in those countries as I have repeatedly spoken out in favor of those indigenous people who have been victims of American militarism and have been on the receiving end of American bombs and bullets.
That assumes that poor countries are in fact developing......many of them are not and many of them are even reverting to less developed situations.
Dj Die-O-Logic
Excellent point.
Countries develop at their own pace, a definition of developing is: "To bring from latency to or toward fulfillment" I believe all countries strive towards positively developing socially, politically and economically, this in spite of other countries (mainly those you would assume as being "first world)" meddling in their affairs.
The usa seems to be "reverting to a less developed situation" collapsing on itself just like the USSR did, I wouldnt consider the usa "first world" but a "developing nation".
As a teenage country acting junior highish,we hope to make it to adulthood before extinction
Leave us alone. We don't want to develop. We don't need Cable and shopping malls. We don't need Faux News and Gestapo police cars to manage everything inside our houses for us. We don't need social workers and lawyers to sort out everything in our private lives. We are perfectly happy being POOR and FREE and in firm control of our very small, very weak central governments. We shop, police, and eat LOCALLY.
You're living in a 1984 police state, for the simple reason that you believe that the Big Central Government Always knows best. Well, what happens my friend, when the Repukes raid those marvelously funded social and retirement programs? What happens when the Big Government lets the Big Fortune 500 Board Room make all the decisions? Huh?
Then What? They Bail themselves out of their Wall Street Casino scams at your expense, and then claim that Health Care and Social Security is just too expensive. Entitlements! Entitlements! (conveniently ignoring the fact that Black Programs like the B2 Bomber at 2 billion dollars a plane easily exceed social programs every year. But they're "black" so they aren't in the published Federal budget; which is largely a work of optimistic fiction.)
Big Monopolies = Organized Crime
Big Government = bodyguard of Big Monopolies.
Cut the government down by 90 percent and we won't have any of these lobbyist-caused problems.
Any Questions?
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
You think that the rich, the lobbies etc would just say shrug their shoulders if you cut down government by 90%? They would just replace the government you just cut down with another form of government, one that might even favour them more, even if they don't call it government and call it something else.
People who want government severely cut down need to provide answers as to what they are going to do when if government is severely reduced, the rich start hiring private armies, private mercenaries; when these private armies decide to go independent and seize power for themselves.
So: "The devil you know, is preferable to: the devil you don't know". Is that how it is with you?
You've got a good point, rfloh, they are going to unleash the Pinkertons and Whakenhuts, Northcom and FEMA on us.
This is why the second amendment is so important. We're going to be flush with cash after the rebate and you know we aren't stupid enough to put it in their banks. After mailing a check to every working American of about $67,000 (7 trillion dollar rebate from bank and mortgage bailout theft, and 3 trillion dollars annual budget cuts) divided by 150 million workers, we need to tax wealth say, 90 percent rate of everything over a million dollars net worth. And introduce windfall taxes to all corporations making over a million dollars. Shut down the wall street casino for good. The economy will rebound.
One percent pain. 99 percent gain.
Then we can give the Pentagon a new mission: Replace all Coal plants with Solar or Boom! It's a shame we didn't get an FDR this time. Instead we got a cigarette-smoking government con man. We're going to have to join the birthers and teabaggers if we want to save the planet and save ourselves. Nobody's going to do it for us.
Or, we can do it your way and stay prisoners.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
"So: "The devil you know, is preferable to: the devil you don't know". Is that how it is with you?"
Nope. My point is that before you jump out of the window, you better be sure you aren't going to end up breaking your legs, and ending up as a quadriplegic after landing.
"We're going to be flush with cash after the rebate and you know we aren't stupid enough to put it in their banks. After mailing a check to every working American of about $67,000 (7 trillion dollar rebate from bank and mortgage bailout theft, and 3 trillion dollars annual budget cuts) divided by 150 million workers, we need to tax wealth say, 90 percent rate of everything over a million dollars net worth. And introduce windfall taxes to all corporations making over a million dollars. Shut down the wall street casino for good. The economy will rebound"
You're assuming that you will have control of the government. You get to tax people only if you're the government.
"Then we can give the Pentagon a new mission"
What makes you think that the Pentagon will listen to you? Why should it? Why should the military listen to you? Why not seize power for themselves? What good are your guns against the military's weapons?
Why should the professional soldiers, the professional mercernaries take orders from you?
rfloh, it was a nice fantasy before you started shooting holes in it.
rfoh said:
"Nope. My point is that before you jump out of the window, you better be sure you aren't going to end up breaking your legs, and ending up as a quadriplegic after landing."
Yep, that's a pretty accurate description of the situation we're in. The building is on fire and the NWO fire department's not likely to risk themselves to put it out, if they even show up at all.
rfoh said:
"What makes you think that the Pentagon will listen to you? Why should it? Why should the military listen to you? Why not seize power for themselves?"
I think maybe they already have...... Seriously, your point is a good one. Without the Pentagon on board to protect the Constitution, which they are sworn to uphold, the chances of meaningful bankster/government reform are low. I've never heard of a revolution being successful without at least the church and the military on board, so, you're right. The Second Amendment is about home and neighborhood defense, nothing more. It is of no value unless you multiply it by about 150 million armed citizens. Then it becomes a deterrent to occupation by an Army which was it's intent. It's not a matter of winning, because obviously that's impossible. It's a matter of survival at that point. The unwillingness to turn the whole country into GAZA is it's power and value and that's what you bet on.
I'll speculate that if another 50 million go homeless and jobless then it's likely to be a serious subject in the South.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Damn, we are one STUPID country.
The majority of Americans are very, very stupid people.
Now you've got me 'laffing' bear!
Open your eyes. All humans are born with gifts and talent for innovation and creativity that can either be stifled or nurtured.
Nope Americans are a very stupid people. No way around it. You can't call it manufactured ignorance when we are neck deep in the information age.
The large majority of Americans are in fact stupid people.
"Stupid is as Stupid Does" F. Gump