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TechnoratiThe Vote Grab: Voting Machines Are Unreliable and Inaccurate
As early voting in the US presidential elections gets underway, ES&S iVotronics touch-screen electronic voting machines have been observed in four separate states flipping the votes - mostly from Barack Obama to John McCain but sometimes to third party candidates too. This has already occurred during early voting in the states of West Virginia, Tennessee, Missouri and Texas.
A county clerk in West Virginia invited a video crew to watch his demonstration of the reliability of the disputed voting machines but instead he saw the machine flipping the votes, as critics claimed. He put this down to the faulty calibration of the voting machine. However, even after he recalibrated the machine it continued to flip votes. Watch the video here:
This is further evidence that the electronic voting machines that will be used in the 4 November election are not reliable and accurate - that they are prone to malfunction and may not record the actual vote winner.
Democrats are not the only people who are worried. Stephen Spoonamore, a Republican security expert, explains why electronic voting is inherently unsafe in an eight part series of interviews. You can watch Part 1, and access Parts 2 to 7, here.
Writing in the New Statesman way back in 2004, reflecting on criticisms of the electronic voting systems used in the presidential election that year, Michael Meacher MP pointed out that statisticians, academics and political analysts had highlighted significant voting differences between electoral districts that used paper ballots and those that used electronic systems. These cannot be explained by random variation. The investigators found a much larger variance than expected and in every case it favoured George W Bush over John Kerry. In Wisconsin and Ohio, the discrepancy favoured Bush by 4 per cent, in Pennsylvania by 5 per cent, in Florida and Minnesota by 7 per cent, in North Carolina by 9 per cent and in New Hampshire by a whopping 15 per cent.
Research by the University of Berkeley, California, revealed election irregularities in 2004 in Florida. These irregularities, all of which were associated with electronic voting machines, appear to have awarded between 130,000 to 260,000 additional votes to Bush.
The discrepancies between paper and electronic voting could be the result of simple technological glitches. But some experts detect something more sinister: outright vote fixing by interference with voting machine and tabulation software.
Meacher reported that Diebold company voting machines and optical scanners may not be tamper-proof from hacking, particularly via remote modems. Diebold machines were used in counting a substantial proportion of the 2004 votes and will be used again in next week's presidential poll.
Two US computer security experts, in their book Black Box Voting, state that "by entering a two-digit code in a hidden location, a second set of votes is created; and this set of votes can be changed in a matter of seconds, so that it no longer matches the correct votes".
This is entirely possible, according to Clinton Curtis, a Florida computer programmer. He has confirmed that in 2000 he designed an undetectable programme for Republican congressman Tom Feeney. It was created to rig elections by covertly switching votes from one candidate to another to ensure a predetermined ballot outcome. See a video of his sworn testimony here.
As Robert F Kennedy Jr, nephew of JFK, has exposed, the US is one of the few democracies that allow private, partisan companies to secretly count votes using their own proprietary software.
Moreover, the vast majority of western democracies have independent Election Commissions to oversee voting methods and corroborate the results. The US does not.
Most election ballots next week will be tallied or scanned by four private companies - Diebold, Election Systems & Software (ES&S), Sequoia Voting Systems and Hart InterCivic.
According to Kennedy:
Three of the four companies have close ties to the Republican Party. ES&S, in an earlier corporate incarnation, was chaired by Chuck Hagel, who in 1996 became the first Republican elected to the U.S. Senate from Nebraska in twenty-four years - winning a close race in which eighty-five percent of the votes were tallied by his former company. Hart InterCivic ranks among its investors GOP loyalist Tom Hicks, who bought the Texas Rangers from George W. Bush in 1998, making Bush a millionaire fifteen times over. And according to campaign-finance records, Diebold, along with its employees and their families, has contributed at least $300,000 to GOP candidates and party funds since 1998 - including more than $200,000 to the Republican National Committee. In a 2003 fund-raising e-mail, the company's then-CEO Walden O'Dell promised to deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush in 2004."
Is it right and proper for partisan pro-Republican companies to count the votes? It is certainly not objective and impartial.
Kennedy recounts how computer scientists at Johns Hopkins and Rice universities conducted an analysis of the Diebold voting machine software source code in July 2003. "This voting system is far below even the most minimal security standards applicable in other contexts... (it is) unsuitable for use in a general election," the scientists concluded.
"With electronic machines, you can commit wholesale fraud with a single alteration of software," Avi Rubin told Kennedy. He is a computer science professor at Johns Hopkins who received $US7.5 million from the National Science Foundation to study electronic voting. "There are a million little tricks when you build software that allow you to do whatever you want. If you know the precinct demographics, the machine can be programmed to recognize its precinct and strategically flip votes in elections that are several years in the future. No one will ever know it happened."
Electronic voting machines not only break down frequently, their security and integrity is also easily compromised, says Kennedy:
"In October 2005, the US Government Accountability Office issued a damning report on electronic voting machines. Citing widespread irregularities and malfunctions, the government's top watchdog agency concluded that a host of weaknesses with touch-screen and optical-scan technology 'could damage the integrity of ballots, votes and voting-system software by allowing unauthorized modifications'...Locks protecting computer hardware were easy to pick. Unsecured memory cards could enable individuals to 'vote multiple times, change vote totals and produce false election reports.'
An even more comprehensive report released in June by the Brennan Center for Justice, a nonpartisan think tank at the New York University School of Law, echoed the GAO's findings. The report - conducted by a task force of computer scientists and security experts from the government, universities and the private sector - was peer-reviewed by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Electronic voting machines widely adopted since 2000, the report concluded, "pose a real danger to the integrity of national, state and local elections." While no instances of hacking have yet been documented, the report identified 120 security threats to three widely used machines - the easiest method of attack being to utilize corrupt software that shifts votes from one candidate to another.
There is no evidence that the voting machine malfunctions, flaws and security risks identified in the 2004 ballot have been fully corrected in time for the 2008 vote. This calls into question whether the 4 November ballot will reflect the will of the American people. As Kennedy concludes:
"You do not have to believe in conspiracy theories to fear for the integrity of our electoral system: The right to vote is simply too important - and too hard won - to be surrendered without a fight. It is time for Americans to reclaim our democracy from private interests."
To contact Peter Tatchell and for more information about his human rights campaigns visit www.petertatchell.net
80 Comments so far
Show AllThe Vote Grab: Voting Machines Are Unreliable and Inaccurate
Um Duh this isn't a revelation for most thinking people.
Funny how this country can invent the automobile, put a man on the moon, and split an atom but we can't seem to get voting right? Please.... the politicans don't want to fix the system because they have already "fixed" the system!!!!!
The solution is a paper opscan ballot with a randomized vote counting quality control where randomly selected opscan counts are manually counted by election officials with an discrepancy triggering a more extensive hand count to verify results.
All very close votes should trigger an automatic recount.
All ballot counting and recounts should be observed by the press, all interested political parties and citizen observers.
Fill in the little dots on paper.
As for the Rethugs accusing Obama of being a "socialist," that's a laugh. He is a centrist conservative, isn't he? Anyway, the Rethuglicans redistribute the wealth by stealing from the middle-class and poor and giving it to the rich, like the opposite of Robinhood.
I don't think it's strange that McCain and Palin are so upbeat and happy lately --- even though the polls show Obama to be ahead. The whore media are lying and saying the gap is closing between the two. They know the fix is in. Rethuglicans got away with rigged elections in 2000 and 2004, so they're on a roll now.
A vote for McCain is a vote for fascism. Under Republicans the country is in two unnecessary "wars" and is collapsing financially, and McCain wants more war. How anyone could vote for McCain is totally bizarre. Republicans distribute the wealth from the middle-class to the wealthy.
It's amazing that after the theft of the 2000 and 2004 elections nothing has been done to ensure that voting counts. The silence of the Democrats tells you all you need to know about them. The topic is only recently discussed in the mainstream media. All reports indicate the Repugnant Ones are doing the same voter suppression tactics this Selection and we still have electronic machines with no paper trail, votes reset from O'Bomb'em to McClone, long lines, etc. Greg Palast on BBC has dug up all the evidence but his excellent documentaries are nowhere to be seen on TV except Democracy Now.
Just saw Tom DeLay on TV saying Obama was a socialist and Marxist. How ridiculous the McClone campaign is - they had to dig up their deposed indicted corrupt leader from under a rock to spout poison, deny facts and repeat lies. POX news channel repeats same lies on InSanity and Clone's show.
Maybe the American people will wake up and realize the elections are rigged in another couple election cycles. At least this year there are 800 numbers to call to report voting problems and people are encouraged to bring their cameras, cell phones and lawyers to document any problems. We already have plenty of evidence from the 2000 and 2004 thefts of the election and nothing was done, another reason to get rid of both Repugnant Ones and DemoRats).
Democrats have been unwilling to say or do anything about impeachment of Bush and Cheney, theft of the vote, charging Halliburton with war profiteering, or anything meaningful. Why? They are run by the same corporations who also control news and jobs. The only way for real change in this country was thought up by the main character in V for Vendetta. Always remember, the fifth of November. I don't look forward to seeing the wicked witch of the North and the evil Cindy who is the last thing you see before you turn into a frog for the next four years alongside Ho Chi McClone the bully, jock, son of an admiral, spoiled, arrogant, lying, bottom of his class flyboy who'll say or do anything to be Resident.
Yes, almost 4 million electronic votes were lost in 2000 (Cal Poly Tech/MIT Study of the 2000 Election).........Yes 121.8 million people went to the polls in 2004, but only 113.9 million electronic votes were counted for President which means almost 8 million electronic votes were lost.(Election Data Services Analysis of the 2004 Election).
If GAO and other groups stated in 2005 that the electronic machines were not reliable. Why would Senator Dianne Feinstein, Senate Election Committee Chair say, "There is nothing wrong with the election system or the electronic machines?"
Why would she not authorize a thorough investigation?
Perhaps her husband, Richard C Blum has the answer. After all. he received Department of Defense Contracts worth well over 1.5 billion dollars. And her legal counsel, a Mr Klein, had set up an air freight company with Mr Blum to ship cargoes to the Middle East and who knows what that was worth.
Don´t worry America, those detention centers have been built by Kellogg, Brown, and Root to protect us from Militant Americans who might not be happy with the election results.
Don´t worry America, the 1st Brigade of the 3rd Division of the U.S. Army, 4,000 soldiers, have been assigned to Homeland Security to protect us from American Militants...........
Just wondering: I notice that the whore MSM keeps playing over and over the 1948 upset of Truman over Dewey and I wonder if the American public is being "set up" for a McCain-Palin "upset".
Paul Siemering
yeah well Bev Harris of Black Box Voting has been trying to get people to listen to her for like 7 years and she's had all the evidence and all that out there so there is really no excuse for anybody to be using those things. very annoying.
The sanctity of the US democratic republic's voting system is defiled by the election committees' students of Josef Stalin, who said:
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." (Although he said it in Russian, the evidence shows that nothing was lost in translation.)
Aloha, salud, lechiem,
- Tobias
http://www.youtube.com/user/tobiasaurusrex
Thanks for that quote tobiasaururex. Haven't heard that in a while. That's huge.
"Is it right and proper for partisan pro-Republican (pro democratic) companies to count the votes? It is certainly not objective and impartial."
Obama will win this election no doubt about it. He doesn't need to flip votes he's registered 10 million new democratic voters (9.75 are fraudulent) in one Ohio county he registered more democratic voters then there are people in the county (nifty little trick if I may say so myself). He's bought and paid for it spending obscenely more money than all other candidates combined ( by about 5 to 1 on average, take out McSame and it is more like 60 to 1). And now a 30 minuet talking points infomercial on PRIME TIME! Paid for with all those what appear to be ILLEGAL donations. Of course when the $$$ is spent it's hard to give it back (good old Chicago politics). If McSame was doing this EVERY news paper and news outlet (except probably Fox) would be screaming foul, but not a word from any of them - just proves they have also been bought and paid for by obama, so much for campaign finance reform laws.
The solution is open source software and hardware.
Open source does not guarantee that the executables or counting registers have not been altered.
Joe
We've known about this for years, and acutely so since 2000.
&YYY&
John McCain already knows he is going to be the next President, no matter what people actually think they voted.
Two points -
1. The film was pretty scary. High tech is often a bad use of money. It can cause more problems than it solves. And that is when the intention is honest. I was a very good programmer / tester /implementer and know how systems can act in unexpected ways if not thoroughly tested and debugged. We really really need a paper trail.
2. The 5% is one reason why all leftish parties need to get together and form a coalition party to start running in local elections in 2009. Identifying common grounds should not be too hard since clean energy, green jobs, the environment and peaceful approach to international affairs fit together so nicely and would make sense to the public.
Just have to put aside ego and do things in an open and respectful way. It means the first time someone tries to take over and use an organization for a narrow personal goal, they have to be stopped. (Believe me, this advice comes from working on lowly school enrichment projects - you cannot believe how selfish some parents will try to be). Can we do that?
And we must all support the right of any candidate who has acheived ballot status to appear in every debate.
Joe
"The Vote Grab: Voting Machines Are Unreliable and Inaccurate"
I'll say.... especially when the elections return data is first routed to conservative evangelical Michael Connel's computer in his Chattanooga, Tennesee vote manufacturing basement.
http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Republican_IT_consultant_subpoenaed_in_case_0929.html
On his company website, he list his clients including Bush/Cheney 2000, 2004, and McCain/Palin 2008.
http://www.technomania.com/public/Clients/List.aspx
Vote fraud in this country? OMFG!!!!!!!!! Say it ain't so. Please say it ain't so. Oh, and BTW and for the bazillionth freaking time: THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO VOTE BESIDES THE BALLOT BOX.
No, it is not vote(r) fraud. It is election fraud. Two very different things.
That this has been going on since at least 2000, eight years, is outrageous. Either the Dems, who seem to suffer the most from electronic voting machine "snafu's", are too stupid to be office holders or they are in on it.
Lobo Gris
They're in on it.
At least the leadership and some of the State-level people.
For sure.
.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=3771
July 10, 2008
Attorney General Corbett announces charges in legislative bonus investigation - 12 suspects charged in 1st phase of the investigation
.................
In Pensylvania,~~ Democrats,~~ during the 2004 election ,pulled illegal dirty tricks to keep Ralph Nader from getting votes.
Finally justice prevails and their tactics are EXPOSED.
.
Continued)
These efforts were by no means limited to House races. Two outstanding examples of misappropriation of taxpayers' resources on petition challenges were the Ralph Nader for President of the United States in 2004 and the Carl Romanelli for the United States Senate in 2006.
The grand jury found that as many as 50 Democratic House Caucus staff members participated in the Nader petition challenge and contributed a staggering number of man-hours. A House Democratic employee testified before the grand jury that "everybody was working on this." It was virtually a caucus wide endeavor and many of the employees spent an entire week on the Nader petition challenge.
Upon the successful challenge to the Nader petition, Veon sent an e-mail to his staff stating:
"FYI .great job by our staff! This would have never been successful without your work. You have given John Kerry an even better opportunity to win this state.one of the 5 most important states to win this year."
"This is a very significant fact and significant contribution by each one of you to the Kerry for president campaign.you should take great pride in your efforts."
The Romanelli petition challenge was led by Cott, who announced it was very important to "leadership" that Romanelli not appear on the ballot. Staffers were told "not to worry about leave," but to focus on getting the petition challenges done as soon as possible.
.
(Continued)
HARRISBURG - As part of an ongoing public corruption investigation, agents from the Attorney General's Office today filed numerous theft charges, as well as criminal conspiracy and conflict of interest charges, against 12 suspects, including a state representative from Beaver County, a former House Democratic Minority Whip and four current House Democratic staffers. The investigation has uncovered the illegal use of millions of dollars in taxpayers' funds, resources and state employees for political campaign purposes.
Attorney General Tom Corbett said the charges are part of an ongoing grand jury probe into bonuses paid to employees of the Pennsylvania Legislature along with the use of state resources for political campaigns. (Read the Harrisburg Grand Jury Presentment - Read the Pittsburgh Grand Jury Presentment)
Among those charged are former House Democratic Minority Whip Mike Veon, Michael Manzo, the former chief of staff to Pennsylvania Democratic House Majority Leader H. William DeWeese and Beaver County State Representative Sean Ramaley.
Also charged are four current members of the House Democratic Caucus: Jeff Foreman, chief counsel to House Democratic Majority Whip Keith McCall and former Veon chief of staff; Rachel Manzo, executive director of the House Democratic Policy Committee and wife of Michael Manzo; Jennifer Brubaker, director of the Legislative Research Office for the House Democratic Caucus and Patrick Lavelle, a research analyst for the House Democratic Caucus.
Also charged are former House Democratic Caucus employees Scott Brubaker, the former director of staffing and administration for the House Democratic Caucus and husband of Jennifer Brubaker; Brett Cott, a former analyst on Veon's Capitol staff; Steven Keefer, the former director of information technology for the House Democratic Caucus; Earl Mosley, the former director of personnel for the House Democratic Caucus and Annamarie Perretta-Rosepink, a former legislative assistant and district chief of staff in Rep. Veon's Beaver County office
.
DIEBOLD'S
VOTE SOLD
If we can bank online, buy stuff online, pay our taxes online, if the Internet is good enough for the spooks, the Pentagon, banks, corporations, stock trading, etc. and etc. why don't we vote online?
What's safer, voting machines or online voting?
Who benefits from voting machines?
Why not vote online?
THIS IS THE CENTRAL QUESTION!!
I LIVE OVERSEAS AND DO SECURE FINANCIAL TRANSACTIONS AS WELL AS SEND & RECEIVE CONFIDENTIAL FILES ONLINE ALL THE TIME ... AND IN THREE YEARS OF DOING THIS I HAVE NEVER LOST A PENNY NOR HAD A MISHAP DUE TO HACKERS OR MISTAKES.
THE OTHER JOKE IN ALL THIS IS THAT MANY OF THESE COMPANIES SEEM TO BE USING TOUCH SCREENS, WHICH CAN BE INACCURATE, ESPECIALLY OVER PROLONGED USE BY INEXPERIENCED USERS.
I TAKE IT YOUR QUESTION "Who benefits from voting machines?" IS RHETORICAL?
TO KENNEDY'S POINT: THE DUBIOUS DISTINCTIONS DON'T STOP @ PRIVATE COMPANIES MANAGING ELECTIONS, NOT TOO MANY NATIONS VOTE ON WORKING WEEKDAYS EITHER.
IN TRUTH THIS IS ALL A DISGRACE!
BUT WHAT POLITICIAN OR PARTY WILL DARE CHANGE IT?
Paper ballots, more volunteers: that's how other countries do this. Certainly, private corporations should have NOTHING to do with voting, vote counting, debates, or any other aspect of 'civic' society. Paper is verifiable. Online and computer systems can be hacked and are not transparent or verifiable.
So does this mean the phrase "banana republic" is no longer perjorative now that the US has taken out membership in that club?
Diebold's machines are THE MOST RELIABLE machines ever. The machines have never failed to deliver the results prescribed by the fascists that control the US.
Hmmm... good point, if they go by that criteria -- and they do.
How are the Rethuglicans going to steal yet another election when everyone knows Obama is much further ahead of McInsane? They'd be wise to not attempt another stolen election. I know they're dumb and arrogant, but they can't be that stupid (can they?).
I had that same question about Democrats not doing anything and not seeming to care regarding Republicans being in charge of and operating voting machines. I guess it's true about there not being much difference between the two major parties.
Obama supposedly being much further ahead in some polls has nothing to do with it. The polls will be declared "wrong" should McCain be selected by the electronic voting machines/central tabulator.
Lawsuits, Machine Malfunctions and Missing Absentee Ballots Among Voting Rights Issues Facing Jittery Election
With the election less than a week away, the battle is on for voting rights. Early voters across the country are reporting long lines and problems with electronic voting machines. Republicans, meanwhile, continue to file lawsuits that could stop thousands from voting. We speak to Harvey Wasserman of Free Press and Brad Friedman of the Brad Blog.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/lawsuits_machine_malfunctions_and_missing_absentee
Think through the implications of a theft for McCain.
It is not going to happen.
What implications? There would be no implications anymore than there were implications in 2000 or 2004. Nothing happened of any conseqences. Bush/Cheney got two illegitimate terms and the Dead Democratic Party went along with it.
I was out in the street protesting in 2000 with about (only) 100 other people in my major city and was told "get over it."
There were no protests in 2004. People simply accepted the stolen results and that was it. Kerry couldn't get to the microphone fast enough to concede to Bush.
To me it's a given that it will be stolen. The voting system is unchanged. In fact it's worse because these damnable electronic voting machines are all over the nation now. 2000 and 2004 were both stolen so why on Earth would anyone think that 2008 would not be stolen as well?
When McCain is selected by the electronic voting machines and the central tabulator, I expect Obama to quickly concede in John Kerry style and he'll say that we all must come together now and rally behind McCain and this is a good time for the nation and we must have a healing and he'll end with the standard god bless america pabulum.
You remember the 2004 election? For the first time in history, exit polls showing the Democrats ahead, exit polls that ALWAYS jive with the final results, CNN et al told us, were magically way off the final tally.
Must ‘ave been something wrong with the exit polls, they said.
Recall in 2004, with evidence of probable massive vote- return manipulaton and corruption in Ohio, the Democrats did nothing.
It was left to the Ohio Green Party to demand (ultimately sue at great financial risk) for a recount. They found evidence of gross vote manipulation in a number of counties, but obstruction and threats of violence and arrest prevented the recount observers from actually observing the recount. It was like a bananna-republic election.
A recount is impossible with an electronic voting machine anyway.
Through all of this, to repeat, the Democrats and the Kerry Campaign, with vastly more resources did absolutely nothing, their silence can only be explained by assuming complicity.
Why should I vote for the democratic presidential candidate again?
Amen!
All precincts with electronic voting machines should be forced to supply paper ballots for anyone that wants one.
JaneM
Unfortunately even that is not enough. For example, say one hundred people vote for Mr Smith on paper ballots, all the fraudsters have to do is enter the number 101 into the voting machines memory for Mr Jones and Mr Jones wins. You can not challenge the vote as long as any votes do not have paper ballots to back them up.
If the election is fraudulent and McCain and Palin win then we need to do what Alaskans did to a criminal named Soapy Smith when the citizens of Skagway, Alaska said: "ENOUGH ".
History is repeating its self 2000/2004/2008
If they steal this election than its no more Mr Nice guy
Except in 2008 this is a BIG story in the MSM (not just "alternative media") BEFORE the Election.
Do you see the difference now?
who is "Mr Nice guy"?
Passive Democrats whose votes are stolen?
Makes sense to me.
If this election is stolen there will be hell to pay...as their should be.
Like what?
Most people said "get over it" in 2000. That's what I was told when I was in the streets.
In 2004 they said NOTHING.
So what is this "hell to pay" that you're talking about?
I suspect nothing will happen.
There will be and that's why the Repukicans have our own troops from Iraq ready and waiting for 11/5. They will take to our streets amongst masses of angry citizens and, on that day, they will turn what's left of our democracy into a Fascist state. It will be 'official'.
I'm an optimist, though, and do not believe they will get with it for long.
Masses of angry citizens? Where?
To begin with, most people have to believe in the concept of a stolen election. Most don't. Most believe (including the useless faux Dems in congress) that 2000 and 2004 were legitimate.
Secondly, it is cold out now in many/most areas of the nation, who's going to stand out in the cold when they have a job to go to the next day, assuming they still have a job? Thirdly, many people are obese and couldn't walk a city block without having to take a break.
So who are these masses of people? The 48 (as of last count) on this thread? Yeah, that ought to do it.
There's only ONE Brigade Combat Team.
That's like a couple thousand guys.
What are they going to do exactly?
The GOP/Dem polarization is an illusion, just like the liberal/"conservative" one.
They're just illusions that many, many people believe in that's all.
Yes, just a couple thousand battle-hardened veterans who have acquired good urban warfare skills. But it's not just that...there are millions of police officers, tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers, tens of thousands of military reservists and national guard troops as well. One poster here on CD mentioned that the NG troops he was with in New Orleans refused to take citizens' guns away...so national guard troops might not be so easily bent to the government's will (then again, there is the Kent State example), but local police and federal agents sure as hell have been and can again.
All they really need to do to quell rioting? Prevent trucks carrying food from regional distribution centers to going to the rioting cities. Starve people into submission, just like Zimbabwe's President did after their stolen elections. How many troops does that take? Oh...like a couple thousand guys.
Now, I'm not saying this will happen, I'm just saying this could be a response if the GOP does steal the election again. Perhaps it will turn out to be a good thing that I am a couple of hundred pounds overweight...I certainly hope it never comes to that.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think, therefore I am dangerous.
Ah, I see, this is really a "city-mouse/country-mouse" sorta thing isn't it?
Where I live I could walk to Canada without ever going within less than 100 miles of a major city, leaving forest-cover, or leaving mountain valleys.
So a couple of thousand guys, no matter how well trained or backed up by police, could to much to "quell" me.
Wasn't really thinking about the Cities.
My suggestion is "don't riot".
The only problem I have with countless articles such as this is that they tend to diminish voter confidence in the electoral process resulting in the possibility that many would choose to not vote. With that said it is also important for voters to be aware that the systems might be vulnerable to electoral fraud. (catch 22)
Other than that ..... Very good article
Vote for who you wish but get out there and vote!!!!
Visibly flipping the votes on the screen would be about the dumbest way to rig an election machine.
There is a calibration that must be performed to connect the touch screen to the graphics that are displayed. If this is wrong, you could see this.
But, if you wanted to really steal votes, why on earth would you show the voter that you are doing it? Real vote theft would tell the voter all the way along that the votes are what they think they are, but then the underlying counts would be different.
And to really steal an election, you wouldn't touch these voting machines at all. The one computer you need to rig is the one that COUNTS the votes and spits out the final results.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
They use any and all means possible. Not just one method.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/lawsuits_machine_malfunctions_and_missing_absentee
One of the lamest systems the US has are the machines that spew out a “receipt” that they take home. If the paperless vote count is electronically forged to steal the election, what are voters supposed to do, return en masse in their millions to the (now closed) voting stations, each with their little crumpled slips of paper?
I think the old paper ballot and pencil would be the way to go. (Provided it was nationally applied.) But for now you go with what you have.
Vote for who you wish .... But get out and vote!!!!!
Paper ballot and PENCIL? So it can be erased?
Paper ballot and PEN and all votes counted in full public view.
I think that's what they went to at some point in Canada, didn't they? Paper ballots -- nothing electronic.
Yes that is correct. The Canada elections act requires paper ballots. The nation (at the federal and provincial level) has never had electronic voting. There are a few municipal regions that employ electronic voting systems (city, county,etc.) but it is not wide spread
Bush's Canadian soul mate Stephen Harper has tried to get the Diebold style voting machines in use here for our federal elections.
Every time he mentions it, even his most ardent supporters beat the suggestion flat, threatening a party revolt.
We use paper and pencil (pens run out of ink, pencils are cheap) and have a totally accurate tally within 24 hours, no questions needed.
Walk in peace.
Thats right. and all votes are counted at the polling station after it closes. each candidate is allowed to have one scrutineer at each poll to watch the voting and to confirm the counting is valid.
All the polls usually report in under 2 hrs from close.
I think the only electronic voting that is used here is for party leaders, not for the general elections.
I sure hope that the vote down there isn't FUBAR again. I think it'd get ugly this time.
The best of luck to you all.
I think the Dems care a lot like the rest of the Human Race ... dems are human too .. I even wrote the song about it called the Old Voting Machine. This is why we need a landslide! A close vote is easier to rig.
I am in Florida and here is some of what history is gonna call the Big Change..... (revolutions won't be televised)
My friend was here The Sarasota Bridge MArch
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=zZCB9heiNW4
I'm still amazed at this bull about this election being stolen.
The real power in this country is money. The money in this election has gone solidly behind Obama. Obama has raised over $600 million, while McCain is on public financing. This flips the previous elections where the big money was behind Bush.
Do you really think corporate America and Wall street have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into making Obama President, only then to steal the election and give it to McCain.
Do you really think the real power in this country would sit still for this election being stolen away from the candidate they've already bought with hundreds of millions of dollars?
If anything, the votes would be flipped to make Obama win. That's what the power in this country wants and has already paid for.
And the comment below that says the real theft will be in undercounting the alternative candidates is the most likely theft that will occur.
----------------------------
"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
I wrote to you last week about this, but apparently it didn't take.
The neocons control and own the vote-flipping, easily-hackable, riggable electronic voting machines, **NOT** Obama's corporate America/Wall Street backers.
Lawsuits, Machine Malfunctions and Missing Absentee Ballots Among Voting Rights Issues Facing Jittery Election
With the election less than a week away, the battle is on for voting rights. Early voters across the country are reporting long lines and problems with electronic voting machines. Republicans, meanwhile, continue to file lawsuits that could stop thousands from voting. We speak to Harvey Wasserman of Free Press and Brad Friedman of the Brad Blog.
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/29/lawsuits_machine_malfunctions_and_missing_absentee
Yet the GOP SecStates are still purging tons of registered Democrats from the voting rolls.
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I think, therefore I am dangerous.
Perhaps, but what ELSE is occuring that you aren't being shown by TV?
Remember that the big difference between this year and '04 and '00 is that this year the "vote fraud/suppression/theft" is a HUGE story BEFORE the Election.
Try to actually imagine how a "theft for McCain" might work.
A large Obama lead -many times greater than Gore's- would need to be erased.
Then -in merely the next week- some sort of story about how this is plausible would have to be presented on TV.
The problem is the TV -even FOX- has been talking non-stop about Obama's "lead", and all the "problems" with early voting.
So how would it work?
We all wake up on Nov. 5th and McCain has some how overcome the big deficit he had with Obama, and NOBODY thinks it may be connected to the GOP "vote suppression" that we have been told about for the last month? We all just go on our merry way?
I really don't think its likely.
Well, the Republicans have never really considered that they could fail at anything they have pursued yet. Afghanistan, Iraq, supporting Musharraf, New Orleans, offshore drilling, the bailout, etc etc. Not to mention getting away with their little experiment in Minneapolis with preemptive police raids and mass arrests of protesters and journalists. They may (wrongly) think they have the power to contain any major fallout should they steal the election again.
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I think, therefore I am dangerous.
That is a point, of course.
Remember however, that every single one of the things you list was not merely a Republican pursuit: Afghanistan, Iraq, Musharraf, New Orleans, Drilling, and Bailout, were all backed by the big-money boys and Dem cooperation.
In the case of the Bailout, it was the Dems that lead and the Repubs that followed.
(When I say "Dems" I mean mostly the Leadership BTW)
Minneapolis (St. Paul, really) is really a whole different kettle of fish. I'm not sure what the GOP really had to do with what went down.
My point is that is important to not get lost in the Blue/Red split view of the situation here in the U.S.
The good ol' Military-Industrial Complex -in its newer, more overtly Corporatist and Fascist form- is still the real power behind the scenes.
St. Paul had a lot to do with the greater role for the Federal "police" agencies -FBI, NSA, etc.- and the greater unity between Federal-State-and Local police in this era of "Homeland Security".
How much did the difference between Denver and St. Paul have to do with the Blue Team or Red Team, and how much did it have to do with the disparity in "protester" turnout and those City's police departments? We don't really know.
Personally, I don't see the Repubs as the "bad guys" and the Dems as the "good guys" or even the "less bad guys". I see the Leadership of both of the major parties as CORRUPTED by the "actual bad guys" -the Corporatists who manage what was in Eisenhower's time the Military-Industrial Complex.
This is why I see a strong "third" party as the most direct remedy. And also why I see it as not coming from ANY of the current "third-parties" or Nader -they all have handicaps that I won't get into here- but coming from defections from the "big two".
The best case I see is that the Progressive Caucus (with their overlap in the Black Caucus) split from the Dems, and then attempt a "third" party bid of their own, or go for a "big tent" party that includes Ron Paul-type Repubs fleeing the crazy "Christian" wing of the GOP. This is the "best case" not the "likely case" BTW.
Constitutional Progress Party of America, that's what I'd like to see.
Don't Panic,
-matti.
"Constitutional Progress Party of America, that's what I'd like to see."
I've thought of the exact same name and idea :-). Ending the atrocious abuses of power by the Executive and restoring the Constitutional balance between the branches is obviously a platform of the Constitution party, and Progressives desire this as well, since it's such a huge threat to...well, progress, of any kind for our agenda. As for the mini-test of the police state at the conventions, I blame that on the GOP because it is widely known the Justice Department has been politically corrupted by the current administration, and FBI officers were reportedly in charge of the raids. I do not assign as much blame to the Democratic leaders because the current administration has become so fucking powerful, I doubt there's anything Congress could really do to block it. As for the Democratic leadership however...I do want to kick the shit out of them..I could do it too...6'2, over 400 lbs...major ass kicking :-) (Impeachment off the table MY ASS!)
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I think, therefore I am dangerous.
I think that when we ceed to Bush so much power -conceptually- we ceed to the Office of President the powers of an Emperor in the actual World.
This is bad for democracy no matter who holds this power.
Unless Bush has some sort of incredibly powerful blackmail position over the Dems then they could have stopped him easily -in the House at least- many times in many ways -Impeachment being one that jumps to mind right away.
Why did the Dem leadership NOT do this? Why was this "off the table"?
Articles were introduced by Rep. Kucinich.
Bush is the least popular President since Hoover.
Why not do it?
Unless the answer to this Question is "Bush prevented them somehow", then it is not his Administration that is "so fucking powerful" but the Congress -through the Dem Leadership- that has "failed to use their fucking power".
Put into the context of history, it is not the Bushites -or the GOP- that is the problem here, neither is it the Dems. The problem is Structural and originates in the rise of corrupting, anti-democratic, and anti-constitutional organizations.
Watching Democracy Now! this morning I had the same question as Amy Goodman: why exactly does the Democratic party not care about this issue?? What's the REAL reason?
http://www.counterpunch.com/gonzalez10292008.html
The real reason: the Democratic elites are also defenders of entrenched white privilege.
Denial?
My guess would be is that in areas where the Democrats control the machines, they steal votes their way as well. They don't want to hollar to loudly because they have the same scam going.
Just a guess. But its the one that makes sense to me. And surely everyone knows that Democratic election officials can be just as corrupt as Republicans. And surely its obvious that the Dems have the same win-at-all-costs attitude as the Republicans.
If there are any races on the ballot where everyone should vote for a 3rd party or independent candidate, its the Secretary of State and whatever local races there are for who controls the election process. That absolutely must be taken out of the hands of corrupt politicians from both corporate parties who only care about making their party win.
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
Could it be that an accurate count would reveal that Nader and McKinney receive many more votes than we are told they do by Diebold? Naaaaaaah, that is impossible. To arrange that the vote machine companies would need the expertise of a mediocre computer programmer, how would they manage that?
Here is an idea, do you have pencil and paper in America?
"do you have pencil and paper in America?"
**********PEN************* not pencils.
Pencil marks can be erased by somebody other than the voter.
Bingo!
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"To know, and not to do, is not to know"
Yeah, remember that key 5%.
The Greens, Nader, even the Constitution Party and the Libertarians, (and the Socialists, and Socialist Workers, and everybody else) MUST be prevented from ever getting that 5% that would net their party Public Financing in the next Election.
I think that even with that system still stacked against them (go check out the FEC's site if you want to get really pissed off) any one of the three "major-minors" would make enough of an impact with some real money on TV to force coverage, which would then force debate space, which would then force the "majors" to address issues, and so on in a snowball effect that would reek havok in the "two-party system".
30-plus years of overt kleptocracy and Empire, with the refusal of either "major" to act as true opposition, is -naturally- pushing more and more people outside the "big two" -at least before they are propagandized back in.
The FEC, control of elections at the State level, gerrymandering, repressive laws, and collusion with Corporatist Media, the mainstay tools of repression for the last 30 years, may not be enough anymore. Therefore -as they have done regularly in the past- the big-money-boys (and their servants in the "big two" leaderships) turn to EXTRA-legal means to directly manipulate the vote.
Kleptocracy and Empire may have a fondness in their hearts for Republican leadership, but what they truly fear is the collapse of the "two-party system" as a whole.
A "third-party" beating the odds and securing public financing would be a true "spanner in the works" for the Control System -therefore it must be presented at all costs.
Look, even, at our "discussions" here at CD. Many of the most rabid (and seemingly most involved in the campaign) Dems refuse to even allow that Nader or the Greens could collect 5% from States where Obama is strongly in the "lead", and backed mostly because of his "center-right" face, not his "left" face -why?
It has been demonstrated numerous times to them that 5% of the left vote can be freed from its Obama "obligation" without affecting Obama's chances, so why?
Could it be that preventing the acheivement of that magic 5% for a "third-party" is just as much their goal as preventing a McCain "Presidency"?
Don't Panic,
-matti.
You could be right about the third party candidates.
Joe