The knives sure are out for retired Gen. Wesley Clark.
In case you missed it: Interviewed by CBS' Bob Schieffer on Sunday's Face the Nation, Clark said that for all the national security experience John McCain claims, he never held a position of command during wartime. "I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war," Clark said. "He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility." Clark then continued, "But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air -- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it publicly?' He hasn't made those calls, Bob."
Then came this:
SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences, either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean --CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.
From the response of McCain's defenders in the press, you'd think Clark had claimed that John McCain was never really in Vietnam at all. CNN's Rick Sanchez described it with an incredulous expression as "dissing, some might say Swiftboating, John McCain's military record." ABC's Rick Klein accused Clark of "calling into question, in surprisingly sharp language, Sen. John McCain's military record." Over at the Wall Street Journal, Gerald Seib and Sara Murray were aghast: "The one certainty of the 2008 campaign, it might have seemed, was that Sen. John McCain would be acknowledged all around as a war hero for his service in Vietnam -- but apparently not."
Of course, they were just wrong: Clark didn't call McCain's record into question; he didn't say McCain wasn't a hero, and he sure as hell didn't "Swiftboat" McCain. Not only was he responding directly to Schieffer's question, using Schieffer's words, but he explicitly honored McCain's service. Those key pieces of context were left out of the reports that all three networks broadcast the next day, as well as many of the reports in newspapers and on television that followed. In The New York Times, Jeff Zeleny not only removed the context, but he simply repeated the McCain campaign's outrageously disingenuous charge that Clark was "impugning Mr. McCain's heroism."
But to understand why the press is reacting with such outrage, you have to understand what they've been saying about McCain for the last decade.
There's a myth out there that the McCain campaign and the media have cooperated to create. It says that John McCain is reluctant to exploit his Vietnam POW story for political advantage, so modest and full of integrity is he. We've seen this repeated again and again, not just by McCain and his supporters but by reporters who ought to know better.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
From the first time he ran for Congress in 1982 up to the present day, McCain has made his POW story the centerpiece of his entire political career. The key moment of that 1982 campaign was when he responded to his opponent's (absolutely true) accusation that McCain was a carpetbagger by saying, "As a matter of fact, when I think about it now, the place I lived longest in my life was Hanoi." At every point since, it has been the deft use of this tool that has brought McCain renewed attention or won him a key victory.
McCain has every right to talk about Vietnam all he wants -- it's his story, and no serious person has ever disputed the details. But don't tell us he's reluctant to use it, because he isn't. He talks about it to voters, he talks about it to contributors, he talks about it to reporters, he talks about it with seriousness, he jokes about it, and his campaign makes every attempt it can to remind people of what happened to him in Vietnam.
As I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But what happened with Gen. Clark reveals the McCain Rules, as he and the press would have us understand them. Here's how things are supposed to work: It's fine for the McCain campaign to run ads touting his time as a POW, create web videos touting his time as a POW, have him mention his time as a POW in speeches, and have him bring it up in debates (remember "I was tied up at the time"?). In other words, it's fine to have John McCain's entire presidential run be presented through the filter of his POW experience. Should, however, someone even ask the question of whether the fact that McCain was a POW really qualifies him to be president, that would be a deeply offensive affront to all that is right and good, and must not be tolerated. Talk about having it both ways.
Let's keep in mind that no one seems to have argued with Clark on the merits of his claim. No one responded by saying, "General Clark is wrong -- in fact, McCain's POW experience does qualify him to be president." I suppose one could make that argument, but I haven't seen anyone actually make it. Instead, what they have said is that Clark was out of bounds to even raise the issue. To even assert that McCain's Vietnam experience isn't in and of itself a qualification for the Oval Office is such an unforgivable transgression that its merits don't need to be addressed.
There is, however, one person who wouldn't disagree with Clark's statement that being a POW doesn't qualify you for the presidency. When asked by the National Journal in 2003, "Do you think that military service inherently makes somebody better equipped to be commander-in-chief?" this politician answered, "Absolutely not. History shows that some of our greatest leaders have had little or no military experience. ... I have advised [a presidential candidate] that I'd be very careful about how much you talk about that, because you don't want it to sound self-serving." The person who said that was John McCain, and the presidential candidate he was talking about was John Kerry.
For years, we've watched as reporters have dropped the fact that McCain was a POW into their stories, apropos of nothing, as if it were merely part of his name... John McCain, who was a POW in Vietnam, visited a farm to discuss the dairy industry. I kid, but it seems that any criticism of McCain's character is greeted with "But he was a POW!" When Howard Dean called McCain an "opportunist" back in April, Chris Wallace of Fox News indignantly asked Sen. John Kerry, "Do you think John McCain was an opportunist when he refused to take early release from a North Vietnamese prison camp?" Just last week, The Washington Post's Richard Cohen wrote that though McCain has flip-flopped on immigration, taxes, and a host of other issues, it's really OK, because "we know his bottom line. As his North Vietnamese captors found out, there is only so far he will go, and then his pride or his sense of honor takes over."
So when Gen. Clark, or anyone else, says that the fact that McCain suffered as a POW forty years ago is really neither here nor there when it comes to what the next president will be faced with, it's no surprise that McCain's fanboys in the media react with such high dudgeon. After all, to suggest that the POW story is only one piece of McCain's biography, and not the be-all-end-all on which the next president should be chosen, is as much an indictment of the press as it is of McCain.
Paul Waldman of Media Matters Action Network is the author or coauthor of four books on politics and media, including his most recent work, Free Ride: John McCain and the Media, coauthored with David Brock.
Copyright © 2008 HuffingtonPost.com, Inc.
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77 Comments so far
Show All---"For years, we've watched as reporters have dropped the fact that McCain was a POW into their stories, apropos of nothing, as if it were merely part of his name… John McCain, who was a POW in Vietnam, visited a farm to discuss the dairy industry. I kid, but it seems that any criticism of McCain's character is greeted with "But he was a POW!" When Howard Dean called McCain an "opportunist" back in April, Chris Wallace of Fox News indignantly asked Sen. John Kerry, "Do you think John McCain was an opportunist when he refused to take early release from a North Vietnamese prison camp?" Just last week, The Washington Post's Richard Cohen wrote that though McCain has flip-flopped on immigration, taxes, and a host of other issues, it's really OK, because "we know his bottom line. As his North Vietnamese captors found out, there is only so far he will go, and then his pride or his sense of honor takes over."----
So called journalists like Chris Wallace and Richard Cohen should be named and called out for what they are doing to hurt this country. When have they ever followed such questioning, when confronted with the treasonous lies and deeds of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and their ilk? When??????
They disgust me. If I believed in hell, as others do, I would say that there should be a special place there for the members of the MSM who dishonor their positions as representing the common people in asking questions and searching for truth.
Today, maybe Bob Shieffer is taking slaps on the backs from his peers, afterall making a mountain out of a mole hill is what "news" is all about these days.
Maybe the special place would be living life all over again and losing a son or daughter in Iraq or Afghanistan, or being picked up and thrown into a dungeon because the oppressor needs to point to success on the war on terror. Or you fill in the blank. . . -------------- because there are as many ways that they could be punished as there are ways that the people are suffering the effects of their misreporting.
My local paper ran an article quoting the North Vietnamese officer who held McCain prisoner saying he would vote for Mcain and denying McCain was ever tortured. Has anybody else read this?
Thomas_More -- "I'd love to see how you and some of the others would have handled 5 years as a captive of the NVA."
I wouldnt have ... for the simple reason i would have been in Canada instead ...unlike all the other morons who decided to murder innocent civilians to satisfy their 'Fatherland'. Please stop this holier-than-thou crap. You dont need to be a Marine to hold an opinion. Invading another country half-way across the globe and murdering millions of them is not (and will never be) justified. To our eternal shame we did it before and continue to do so now and glorify the pricks who commit these very crimes.
"I was just following orders" is NOT a valid defense for war crimes. Vietnam WAS an unjust war based on false claims. However...
How much did you protest? While avoiding the draft, did you spend every day at one protest or another? Did you incessantly tell everyone you met that we were in the wrong? Did you spend every day you would have spent in the jungle at home preaching to everyone that the war should be ended immediately? If not, then could I not make the argument that if Thomas More and the rest of the Viet Nam vets are murderers and war criminals, then you are complicit in their crimes because you didn't do everything in your power to stop them? If you believed so strongly about it, how often were you arrested for, say, sabotaging a troop transport plane or something to prevent more of our soldiers from going over there to commit murder? How many times have you attempted to press charges against a veteran for his crimes?
It's not murder if they're shooting at you. It's war. If Thomas More never killed someone that wasn't a threat to him, then he's not a murderer. Or a war criminal. And surely not a Nazi. McCain was not a coward if his life was in danger, regardless of how heinous the acts he committed may have been.
I consider myself a leftist, but this is the sort of vitriol that turns even me off. It's little wonder why we can't pull more moderates to our side if this is the voice we present to them...
To Thomas More,
I'm really sorry for what you went through. It was more rugged than I could ever know. You shouldn't have been sent there. The fact that you didn't dodge the draft, because then some other guy would have had to go instead of you, is beside the point. You should have gone to Canada, and he should have gone to Canada, and the guy after him should have gone to Canada, and so on. The Man didn't have the right to send any one of you there.
What if they gave a war and no one showed up?
Again, I'm sorry for what you've gone through. But a war crime is a war crime. Killing civilians is killing civilians, no matter how you slice it. An illegal war is an illegal war. The true heroes are the guys who resist that enormous pressure. They say no. They refuse. They object. Like Ehren Watada did. That's a hero.
Grampa McCain is not a hero. He slaughtered civilains. He carpet-bombed peasants. I don't care if he got a few VC along the way. That doesn't change what I just wrote.
McCain was a prisoner of war who got tortured because his government launched an illegal war on false premises. He now is a staunch supporter of an illegal war, launched on false premises, in which prisoners of war get tortured.
Does anyone else see the horrific, craven hypocrisy in that?
Let's stop glorifying McCain's war record. It's an abysmal failure in an illegal war (which we lost, for those of you who are keeping score).
Let's lose this "hero" designation. Please.
Let's call hypocrisy on what is so blatantly hypocritical.
Peace.
It's an idea whose time has come.
Peace.
I noticed that someone found it noteworthy that McCain and Bush senior both got shot down (subtext: those stupid Republicans). So I just thought I'd mention how so much was made of John Kennedy's war record (his close supporters all sporting PT 109 tiepins). His record was based on swimming for many miles towing a crewman to land after his boat was sunk by the Japanese. Kennedy made a cult of toughness in his electoral victory and a lot of that was based on this deed. Not so much on the lack of judgement that led to his poatrol boat being cut in two by a much slower Japanese destroyer.
thomas..i joined this thread cuz it seemed to me that some people were laying a guilt trip on anyone who served in vietnam.
in your response to siouxrose, it seems like you're laying a guilt trip on those who didn't serve. "Go to Canada and let someone else go in you place?...They had to live with that the rest of their lives. Think about wondering if the man who went in your place came back or not."
i'm someone who chose not to "serve." in the beginning, 1967 thru early 1968, it was just a vibe thing. the "counter-culture" was a fun place to be...the drugs were good, the music was good and for about a year and a half there was a genuine brother/sister vibe. in the fall of 1968, i found myself in a college classroom learning about the 20th century history of vietnam....ho chi minh fighting the colonial powers--japan then france...the 1954 geneva peace acccord setting up a unification election for vietnam in 1956...1956 rolls around and the Dulles state dept. convinces the south to not partake in the elections because Ho would have been an overwhelming victor. democracies work when the people express their sovereignity thru elections..right? how hypocritical was the US being here?
in 1969, my draft lottery # came up. i chose not to serve. for anyone who had to serve in "my" place, i feel sympathy. but, u know, he had a choice, too. thomas, some of us here are rightly(i think) giving u the benefit of the doubt about your service in vietnam. methinks u should do the same for us who didn't serve.
canuckchuck July 3rd, 2008 11:56 am
"Saying McCain is a "hero" for being shot down."
I don't think McCain was a hero for getting shot down. I don't know if he was a hero or not. I just have to accept what the guys that were there with him for 5 years of captivity say.
"I think you need a president that is smart enough NOT to get shot down in the first place."
That was GREAT!
This presidential race is turning into the battle of the slimeballs..
...whichever candidate abandons the highest number of most closely held principles wins?
The vision of McCain sucking up to those radical rightie televangalists he was denouncing in 2000 ranks right up there with Obamma flip flopping on FISA, and kissing Israeli ass.
Do yourselve a HUGE favour and vote for Nader....he has had the same principled stand for over 40 years. with him you KNOW what you are getting...someone who actually cares more about the citizens of the USA than his own political gain.
Saying McCain is a "hero" for being shot down during another infamous illegal war of agression by the USA is like saying Mike Tyson is a hero for losing his last streetfight.
I think you need a president that is smart enough NOT to get shot down in the first place.
Siouxrose July 2nd, 2008 6:53 pm
I don't seek any reasons to justify Viet Nam. We shouldn't have been there, we shouldn't have been involved in their civil war, the boys we lost there were wasted. There is never justification for any war except one of self defense.
We lost 50,000 to their little over a million, but people forget how many of our soldiers were saved but damaged for life because of our helicopters (there were some hero's for you) and rapid evacuation most of the time.
But to call the boys that went cowards, war criminals, Nazi's, murderers, is a base lie and a slander I won't allow. If you think you had a choice, what? Go to Canada and let someone else go in your place? I couldn't do that, nor could many others. To ascribe some kind of courage to that is BS. At the same time not very many of us blamed them at all. They had to live with it the rest of their lives. Think about wondering if the man who went in your place came back or not.
Desert? Only a coward would do that or a broken man.
An illegal order? What? To shoot civilians? I never heard an order given like that or saw it.
It's like a fool earlier quotes killing two million peasants or civilians. A little over a million of those poor little folks were mostly NVA and some VC. They happened to be shooting at us and trying to kill us. Our apologies for not allowing them to kill me. Another half million or more were killed by the NVA or VC.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but its fairly easy in hindsight to say what someone else should have done or call them names. And I don't think you know what a Nazi was.
I think you need to think about all those boys you just disrespected. Many are still there.
zgoobadooba July 2nd, 2008 9:10 pm
You'll never know how much I appreciate what you said. You at least seem to understand the reality.
I'm happy to report to you that I was able to flip him over and he landed about 5 ft. away. We looked at each other for however long, he turned and ran, I grabbed my rifle and ran like a son of a bitch (sorry ladies) in the other direction. I don't know which of us was more scared, but I'd bet it was me.
MikeBinSC July 3rd, 2008 2:52 am
Thanks Mike. I had seen all that. But there is no testimony or evidence. Just opinion. Did I miss something? I cannot call a man a coward based on that.
riddimboy July 2nd, 2008 9:30 pm
I'd love to see how you and some of the others would have handled 5 years as a captive of the NVA. I don't think I could have handled it. These weren't nice folks. You should have seen....actually all of you should have seen what your hero's did to civilians, women and children. Perhaps you wouldn't think they were so worthy of your love and us of your hate. Shame you can't see what they did to some of our boys. Yeah, you're on the right side all right.
bligh3 July 3rd, 2008 7:53 am
Thank you so much. I'm very glad too, I'm just sorry I couldn't bring the rest of my guys home with me too.
FredWol July 2nd, 2008 11:36 pm
I know exactly what you are.
..................................................
To whom it may concern,
It was suggested that I hated earlier, I refuted it. But on second thought, I don't hate (to strong) but I dislike anyone that forces me to remember things and people I'd just as soon lay to rest.
The guys that are still there can't defend themselves from cowardly attacks on their character, their intelligence, their values, their morals so I will. I always will.
You are also saying the same insulting things about me and the rest of the guys that came back. If its true, OK, but this is the biggest bunch of revisionist Bull Shit I'v ever heard. The Left from back then trying to portray themselves as almost god like in their knowledge of right and wrong, their unfailing correctness in their actions and their assumption of courage to wrap arond themselves for not having been drafted or not volunteering. Horse Shit.
We all know what the Viet Nam war was, those that were there know a hell of a lot more about right or wrong than the after dinner General who knows more about the battle than the men that fought it.
For any of the guys that are still there, I'd trade 20 of you that assume your superior airs and spit on them. For one of the guys that came back in pieces I'd trade 50 of you to make him whole again.
I feel fairly strongly about this.
I'm not totally sure about this, Nelson, but I THINK it has to do with the fact that if the Powers That Be DIDN'T qualify that sort of activity as "heroic", We the People's shallow and introspection-challenged plurality would find the alternative disturbing, and feel not so good about themselves and their unduly-elected leaders of the Greatest Country in the World. And things might become... tense.
I'm skipping a few steps between cause and effect because I occasionally experiment with brevity.
Why is it that picking up a gun and killing innocent civilians indiscriminately automatically qualifies someone as a hero?
"Making a hero out of a coward" - More of the same. Not a George Bush Sr. fan (better than jr.) but honestly, where do you guys get this shit? Bush was in a dive bomber, not a torpedo plane, when he was shot down. He was actually hit while making his bomb run on a Japanese radio station. The hit killed or severely wounded everyone but the pilot (bush) and the navigator. Bush completed his run and then headed out over the ocean in his flaming aircraft. He waited until the last moment to bale out, along with the navigator. Unfortunatly, the navigator's chute didn't open and he plunged to his death. All of this was seen by others in his squadron, who held off the Japanese patrol boats until Bush was picked up.
Again, call their politics into question, question their voting record, ect. Just don't make up crap because you don't like the person. Isn't that what the other side does?
Clark then continued, "But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air — in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it publicly?' He hasn't made those calls, Bob"
*************************
Clark calling McSame unqualified is like a frog calling anyone else ugly.
Wesley Clark looks middle-aged woman cute all silver grey in a Brooks Brothers suit, but what the Butcher of Yugoslavia facilitated for Clinton/Albright/etal was just a warm-up for what Bushco is doing to Iraq.
He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years
He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you
And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way
And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls
But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on
He's the universal soldier and he
really is to blame
His orders come from far away no more
They come from him, and you, and me
and brothers can't you see
this is not the way we put an end to war.
-- Buffy Ste. Marie
Kinda ironic that both McCain and Bush senior have something in common.
Both were shot down by the enemy. Well.....Bush senior was not actually shot down over the Pacific- he bailed out of his stricken torpedo bomber leaving his two crew members to die with the pilot-less aircraft. Maybe he shouldn't be blamed for his apparent panic because after all he was the Navy's youngest officer pilot, but he did have the responsibility for the lives of his two crew members. Instead of a reprimand for his actions, Bush senior was "awarded" the Navy's DFC. Making a hero out of a young inexperienced coward.
Fast forward three decades to McCain and a different kind of war- a war not between empires- but rather a French colonial war with Americans as proxy. My question to McCain is not about his military service in Vietnam, but rather his understanding of that conflict. If McCain believes that the American War against the People of Vietnam was a war against communism- he should never be president.
I am not a McCain fan, but am disgusted with the patent falsehoods that pass for "truth" in these discussions.
1. McCain causes the Forestall fire with some sort of risky engine procedure. There is actual footage of the incident. McCain was parked way over on the other side of the flightdeck
(at least 40 yards) away. How he could have possibly started the short that caused the rocket to fire is beyond me. The only amazing thing about it is that he wasn't killed.
2. He admitted to being a war criminal on 60 minutes- I saw the interview. He said that he regretted saying that he was a war criminal after 4 days of torture. The same people that get the "vapors" over confessions obtained by waterboarding ( a stupid, indefensible way to get information) apparently think that a confession coerced from someone by beatings and rope torture is completely true and right.
3. He wasn't tortured- because the NVA says he wasn't. -newsflash, the NVA claims that NO ONE was tortured, in spite of irrefutable evidence to the contrary.
4. He was a coward for flying a bomber. - cowards do not fly into the teeth of the enemy. The NVA had the most advanced air defense systems -courtesy of the Soviets and Chinese- on earth. The american flyers over North Vietnam had the highest casualty rate of any service in the war. My father was a gunner on a B-17 over Germany. Half of his squadron was killed. His targets were power plants, munition factories and railheads. He probably killed civilians- that is war. He was certainly no coward for doing so.
Thomas Moore -I'm with you. I am no fan of McCain but do not see why falsehoods should go unquestioned just because you don't like the guy. Attack his record in congress, question his personality as being fit for command - but don't just make shit up because you don't like the war that he was called to serve in. By the way, I for one am glad you came back from Nam in one piece.
Best regards
I have proven myself worthy to be president because I went without thought or hesitation into somebody else's country in a wrongful, obscene war and bombed the shit out of them in the hope that America could keep a toe-hold Asian empire---and then decades later when the vast consensus was that yes, Vietnam was a national mistake, I still insisted (in debate vs. other GOP candidates) that "the wrong people won that war." I was ignorant then, I am ignorant now, stubbornly so, and I am willing as well to send a whole new generation overseas to kill and die without really knowing what the fuck I or they are doing. Vote for me! Because I have always worn my holy imperial suffering on my sleeve and, just as you owe Jesus your soul for his sufferings, you owe me for mine. Vote for me! I don't care what the facts are!
I guess the corporate-government-media has successfully bumped General Clark off the short list for VP, wouldn't you say?
Here is your link to the coward, John McCain's military record-
http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/
The lesson for anyone who "served" in the senseless Vietnam war ought to be that it should never happen again. But that's not what Vietnam veteran McBomb professes. He's itching to bomb Iran, a country that, like Vietnam, hasn't threatened the United States.
McCain also ought to have a few words to say about torture, how it should not be done. However, he shut his trap and voted for the Military Commissions Act, authorizing torture.
McCain has learned the wrong lessons from war - that's clear. Now, let's oppose all candidates wanting to bomb, and that include Obama, I'm sorry to say. (It's Pakistan he wants to bomb, if you haven't heard.)
I probably shouldn't whip this "war criminal" thing to death, but I would just like to mention that when one says that "calling 18 to 24 yr. old draftees war criminals is stupid too", one is suggesting that they are not responsible for their actions, presumably because they were either too ignorant of the issues or too young to have a sense of right and wrong. I'm willing to entertain the idea that this was true for these youngsters, but I would suggest that we then need to apply the same rules for other people who commit similar crimes. Using these rules, we should pardon and perhaps make heroes of young mass murderers, gang bangers, etc. "Everyone's doing it" is not usually considered justification for murder, and it shouldn't be for war crimes either, in my humble opinion.
Of course, McCain, like the 32 year old bomber pilot captain I refered to in an earlier post, doesn't have the excuse of having been young and ignorant. He had the same information as the people who were against the war and chose the side of greed and moral error. Of course, the people who support McCain don't believe that they are greedy and in moral error, but then, that's what we need to point out and publicize. (Is "moral error" a theological term? Sounds kind of like something from the Jesuits. I'm just looking for a less loaded term for "evil".)
It is simply astonishing that the choice that is presented to the American people in 2008 is between a panderer and a warmonger, while third party candidates will not be allowed, in all likelihood, to participate in the upcoming debates this summer.
"impugning Mr. McCain's heroism."
Only in America can carpet-bombing innocent civilians from 10,000 feet in the air be considered heroic. McCain is a fu!@#ing coward and a war criminal, like the dickhead he is trying to replace.
thomas more writes: i am pleased to know that when i was wrestling with that NVA fellow and he had a handful of that stinking mud that he was trying to push down my throat, you guys were hoping he was successful.
u know, i agree with u that calling mcCain a coward is just plain stupid. and calling 18 to 24 yr. old draftees war criminals is stupid too. but, when u were wrestling that NVA fellow, i wouldn't have been cheering for u. as an american, i wish u two would have wrestled yourselves into unconsciousness and survived. if i was an observer from outer space, i would have seen u as invading his land and i would have felt justice to be on his side. u were young and i'm sure u thought "serving" your country was the right thing to do. hey, it's all very sad. and i can't blame u for getting pissed about some of the comments here.
McCain is regarded as a hero for having failed in his duty to bomb innocent civilians...he was shot down and captured by them and thrown into prison...if he'd bombed americans, he would have been torn apart on being captured...if a mafia hit man failed at his task of murdering the enemy, he would be at the bottom of a river, wearing cement shoes...this guy has somehow parlayed his failure into heroism...
so, every murderer from the sky who succeeded and completing the misson without being captured, should be a double hero?
no wonder we are ruled by idiots.
fs
Thomas More: "If you had said I hope you get killed to me then, I'd have done a lot more than try to get you fired. Do you think thats cute? I am so glad you didn't judge me while you dodged the draft. Too bad you ducked faster than I did. You could have gone and I could have tried hard "not to judge you""
A lot cuter than preparing a tax return for a fucking war criminal. But criminals and the people who were too ignorant at the time to be responsible for their actions get a chance to repent. So if you did, great.
Dodging the draft made a lot more sense to me than investing a lot of time and effort into being a conscientious objector and going to jail or Canada. Still would, but I'm kind of lazy.
None of us may ever know for sure what really went on in the planes McCain flew, or in the POW camp he was held in. What strikes me as very similar to Bush is his temper whenever certain aspects of his record are challenged. It looks like the temper tantrum of an adolescent caught in a lie by his parents. At some level he knows that he did his first wife wrong, and that series of events is a matter of record. At some level he knows that he has been exploiting a whitewashed version of his war record for decades to further his career - and that exploitation is easy to prove without going into possible treason or preferential treatment in Vietnam. At some level he knows that he is complicit in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of iraqis and the death and maiming of thousands of Americans through his support of the neocon invasion of Iraq, and that complicity is easy to prove by simply looking at his voting record. My point is this: it should not be necessary to rely on shifty sources or possible conspiracies in order to state plainly that McCain is a horrible choice for President. I.F. Stone explained very clearly something which the press has long forgotten, and the left would do well to remember: it's always better to rely on indisputable matters of public record, sources available to everyone, because even if some stories are un-reportable this way, it is both more democratic and more reliable. If it's our super-secret special sources against theirs, they win. If it is everyone's publically held information used to demonstrate important truths of policy and responsibility for events, the progressive cause is much better served.
Quality Time: those hostages were freed without anyone getting hurt, not them, not their guards, not their liberators. Because McCain showed up? Just how gullible are you??
McCain went to Columbia - hostages are freed. What has Obama done?
IF we meet our own projection in the after life, than those who have served in wars and think they are immune from any karmic implication(s) will have much to learn.
In the long count of time I suppose I have served as soldier, still carry that blood on my hands. Any who truly understand the TEACHINGS OF THE MASTERS comes to the realization it is NEVER OKAY to kill/murder. I ask myself if pure self-preservation instincts would take over if I ever found myself in a kill or be killed situation; but the premise can be addressed through its analogy to holistic healing. It's better to work with prevention before dire cause should arise. Prevention generally occurs in how we live. The draft that seized the young men of my generation forced the killing fields on all but those who had the balls to take off for Canada, or were able to fake mental incompetence (or had the luck of good draft numbers). It was not my destiny to be a male in this nexus... but any who volunteered, any who were naive enough to believe their government will be held to account. LOTS of good work, altruism, saving lives, helping others NOW can offset the karmic debt.
THOMAS MORE: Your viewpoint is being narrowed by the fact you seek reasons to JUSTIFY a war of senseless violence and preconceived context, much like the one underway in Iraq. KILLING people on false justification is still KILLING people, and there is NOTHING heroic about it. It is NAZI like because the average soldier will use the rationale, "I was only following orders." As you may recall, that was not recognized as a bona fide defense at Geneva.
TIME BITER: Right on! This ridiculous "cult of militarism" is what I term "Mars rules" and tends to falsely link America's glory to wars, most of them carried on against far weaker "adversaries."
I remember hearing the adage, "The enlightened warrior best understands the benefits of peace," and that's where McCain proves his bankrupcy. How he could have SEEN carnage up close and personal and STILL remain its champion demonstrates the degree to which his soul is impoverished, and his spirit learned nothing. He is a whore to the military industrial complex.
PURVIS AMES: Great post.
PROGRESSIVE 101: The disability question is interesting. Smart LEFT media, little that exists, might wish to "swift boat" that little fact, or factor!
purvis ames July 2nd, 2008 5:01 pm
Way out of line? Why is it that any crime the United States commits is okay because of American exceptionalism. If it looks like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, and behaves like a Nazi… well. More than 2 million dead Vietnamese in our thwarted attempt to take over their country.
Way out of line? Call me a Nazi again and I'll show you what really way out of line is. I'm doing my best to be civil to a very despicable remark.
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FredWol July 2nd, 2008 5:47 pm
If you had said I hope you get killed to me then, I'd have done a lot more than try to get you fired. Do you think thats cute? I am so glad you didn't judge me while you dodged the draft. Too bad you ducked faster than I did. You could have gone and I could have tried hard "not to judge you"
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Are you folks this pathetically out of touch with reality? No matter how you felt about the war,
when was it decided you had the ability, the right or the competence to judge any of us. No matter how you felt about the war. You should have been there, you'd really have been against it.
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First I need to make clear I do not favor Amnesty John as President of the United States. As far as I'm concerned he has betrayed the American worker with his agenda for illegal immigration and support of NAFTA, then he follows GWB down the garden path in Iraq. Not my cup of tea.
But lies are lies no matter who says it or who its about and as near as I can determine now...
How you can think of someone that flies over a place where they shoot at you is a coward is beyond me.
I was reading earlier some of the posts above and I thought, are they right? "Traitorous broadcasts"? I couldn't find a one. The transcripts I found just said things like ..treated well, good food, good medical treatment, etc.
"Fellow prisoners say he was a traitor, responsible for the death of fellow prisoners, etc." I can't find one of these fellow prisoners with a name. No testimony on record , nada. I did find many testimonies by fellow prisoners, with names, that verified his record as a prisoner of war. I doubt I'd have the courage to refuse release as he did.
If anyone can refer me to specifics about a POW with a nanme that verifies these slurs or a broadcast that I can listen to where he divulges important military information or any thing else, please link me.
Till then I'll treat this kind of comment the same as the comment that Barack Obama is a Muslim or is unpatriotic, with the contempt these comments deserves.
If it seems that I take some of these comments personally, plase be assured I do. Very personally. I am so pleased to know that when I was wrestling with that NVA fellow and he had a handful of that stinking mud that he was trying to push down my throat, you guys were hoping he was sucessful. Kind of gives me a warm glow.
I'd have given anything if you guys could have been with me in the Que Son mountains to experience it with the rest of us.
Guess all them, er, "illegal enemy combatants" we're torturing in Gitmo are actually war heroes now qualified to run for leader of their respective countries, eh?
Questions:
How many actual combat missions did McCain fly, or how many hours of combat flights did he fly? This is ALWAYS stated by anyone reviewing a military flyer's record, eg. go to any biography of George McGovern.
How many USA planes did he crash, in addition to the one in which he was shot down? Was it three or was it four?
During how long a period of service did these crashes occur?
Re: Forrestal fire, true McCain was hit by a rocket from plane lined up behind him for takeoff, but was that rocket ignited by McCain's hot rod tactic of deliberately flaming the plane behind him?
After the Forrestal fire, McCain was the only man reassigned to another carrier, and McCain's father was the admiral in charge of the carrier fleet. Why was he shifted away from Forrestal? Was there a coverup of his role in the fire?
I would sincerely like to hear the listen to an answer to these questions by those who know more than I do, perhaps someone from the McCain campaign will answer my questions.
Face facts fans: McCain napalmed peasants and was shot down and captured. War criminal in my mind but I don't run the government or the media.
Vietnam will not be an asset for the McCain run for prssident; it is a liability. Remember John Kerry and his "reporting for duty". It didn't play, and why? America LOST the war, and one thing Americans will not tolerate is a loser. McCain is toast!
One more thing. Can someone explain to me how murdering people in Southeast Asia qualifies one to be a hero?
Instead of fishing him out of that lake in Hanoi after his warplane crashed, his Vietnamese rescuers should have just pushed his face back in the mud until he quit squirming. -- george w. bush 4:00 pm
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Don't be silly. He's a politician.
They NEVER quit squirming.
During the vietnam war I had a temp job preparing tax returns. One of my clients told me he was a bomber pilot home on leave, and I told him that if he went out to drop bombs on people again I hoped he would be shot down. He tried to get me fired, of course, but, surprisingly, I wasn't. I still feel the same way.
And what ever happened to that old Sparta thing about the only way you could honorably return home was "behind your shield or on top of it?" Don't get me wrong, I was glad to dodge the draft and try not to make too many judgements about those who went, but I haven't been able to understand why so many people who I think of as in the "victim" category are considered by others to be "heroes."
General Clark was being honest and Obama throws him to the wolves.
I believe it has pretty much been said with regard to General Clark and Senator McCain.
While I find some of the remarks surprising and perhaps questionable, I do not pretend to be the great historian so I will give my fellow contributors the benefit of the doubt in those cases.
The bone of contention I have here is the fact that Senator Obama has not taken a stand following all the criticism by the McCain people and all the media attention it has attracted/.
He went out of his way to praise McCain's military service (as if Clark had criticized it); but that was never the case. He is acting like a typical politician; just telling the people what he thinks they want to hear (or at least telling them what his advisors are saying he should).
A spokesman for Obama named Burton yesterday implied that the candidate had rejected General Clark's remarks but that was not inferred in the speech I saw.
I'm no speechwriter but something like this by Obama I believe would suffice.
"I have mentioned all along the great respect that I have for Senator McCain for his military service. At the same time, I respect General Clark for the time that he spent in the military as well.
However, General Clark made a statement with regard to questioning Senator McCain's qualifications to serve as president, he did not question his patriotism. He wxpressed his own opinion that he is entitled to do. I neither support nor condemn what he has said. Neither General Clark nor anyone else speaks for me. If I have something to say on a subject, I am perfectly capable of doing so myself. While I appreciate General Clark's support of my candidacy, there is no reason for anyone to assume that he is representing me in giving his opinions"
Now, Barack, that really wouldn't be too hard to do, would it?
I couldn't help but notice that throughout the primaries, every time I saw Barack Obama he was in a black suit (I believe he mentioned that he bought 5 at one time)
Since he has become the "presumptive" nominee he has opted for softer colors; I've seen a tan, a grey, and possibly a dark blue. He should not allow himself to get soft just because the shades of his suits are.
John McCain was the first "Swift-boat" victim, in 2000. George Bush and Carl Rove painted John McCain as a mentally unstable and damaged veteran from his experience as a war prisoner. (While this may be true) IT should be remembered that the biggest smears to Johns McCain's patriotism and military service came from within the Republican party itself. I didn't hear any of the MSM reporters or FOX windbags shouting about it back then. I think we should ask them why.
Thomas More
""How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes."
Forget the hero stuff, anybody there was far too scared to be going around being a hero, but I'm really not to happy about the comparison to the Nazi SS. You are way out of line."
Way out of line? Why is it that any crime the United States commits is okay because of American exceptionalism. If it looks like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi, talks like a Nazi, and behaves like a Nazi... well. More than 2 million dead Vietnamese in our thwarted attempt to take over their country.
No serious person ever disputed the details of McCains record? You're kidding right? So, what's the punch line?
McSnit got his war medals for allegedly resisting torture, after doing three years of radio propaganda for the Vietcong. No verifiable injuries other than those sustained in the crash. The still communist Vietnamese, who have no reason to lie, called him "Songbird" and say he gave up before they laid a finger on him. Now he over-compensates for his cowardice and mass murder from above the clouds by snarling at anyone who points out anything true about his whole shameful existence.
And one further POINT, which McSame tries to use is we don't want Iraq to tun into another VietNam, weeelll Number One Look at it now (Vietnam) is a model of growth with socialist constraints, for the betterment of the people-sound familiar, #2, speaking of interfering with national self-determination (an excuse to not helping the People of Darfor, oil under their land) the Vietnamese actually stoped the Slaughter of millions by POL POT, in Cambodia, then left...and Thirdly, most importantly, MaSame was FREED by the Patriotic Protest, Of AMERICANS stopping that unjust war, WHICH was a VICTORY for DEMOCRACY, which is POOH POOHED today by the right wing nuts, reminds me heavily of Charlton Heston's movie Planet of the APES - where the militariostic Gorillas wanted to solve everything with violence
McCain is and was a COWARD - plain & simple!
Anyone trained to pilot a $40M fighter jet whose sole intention is to drop bombs indescriminately on a population of rurla farmers with the intent to terrorize them into submission is a COWARD and a CRIMINAL.
McCain himself on an episode of 60 Minutes in the 90's admitted that he was a "war criminal". Has the footage disappeared along the the nano-second national memory of the US citizenery?
WAKE UP AMERICA - we are the Nazi's of the 21st Century.
"I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war," General Clark said. "He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces as a prisoner of war."
What a mealy mushed mouth pussy Clark is. John McCain is and was an unrepentant murdering war criminal. Torture was way to kind. Instead of fishing him out of that lake in Hanoi after his warplane crashed, his Vietnamese rescuers should have just pushed his face back in the mud until he quit squirming.
I was invloved in a car accident once. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me as CEO of General Motors.
Bligh3: There is another version of the story making the rounds, which says McC did a popular trick involving pumping too much fuel before starting the engine, causing flames to shoot out the back, which started the fire that caused the short that fired the rocket.
It would be nice if these versions could be reconciled by some authoritative source.
An excellent article and to ther point. general Clark (not one of my favorite folk) simply said that flying a fighter plane doesn't make you any more qualified to be President than not flying one.
John McCain is certainly no coward and anyone that calls him one should be ashamed of themselves, he's proven he isn't. But that doesn't have a thing to do with being President.
The media blew that up for their own reasons and Amnesty John took advantage of it. He'd be stupid not to.
But Clark told the truth and was not out of line to my way of thinking.
I noted above that it was said McCain was bombing civilians, where did you get that information? Just curious.
grigor July 2nd, 2008 12:34 pm
"How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes."
Forget the hero stuff, anybody there was far too scared to be going around being a hero, but I'm really not to happy about the comparison to the Nazi SS. You are way out of line.
I was wondering if any of the facts about McCain end up on MySpace, and other such places where so many of the younger people hang out? I can't go to any of them to find out because my dinosaur computer can't make the trip.
I was so happy to hear General Clark say what he did! I just hope he sticks to what he said, and doesn't back-track like everyone else has done when the "patriotic" backlash hits.
Instead of speaking out against him as Obama immediately did, I was hoping, after what someone responded with, like - how DARE Clark say such a thing about this great American patriot who gave so much for his country - making it sound like that was something only a dirty democrat would do - that Obama would remind the country what Bush's republicans did to Max Cleland, who gave three limbs for his country, and John Kerry.
John Kerry was "swift-boated" for his war medals. Why should McCain be rewarded?
While I do admire those who serve and suffer in the military, I see no reason why it qualifies them to be president. Someone (I think in response to a question from Jack Cafferty) said that claiming that being a POW qualifies a person to be president is the same as claiming that being mugged in the streets qualifies one to be mayor.
There was a great issue of The Nation a couple of weeks ago devoted to the corporate media's love of McCain. Anyone out there who still believes the media is a shill for the government rather than that the government is a front and support system for corporate media?
It's just not about being a hero or worshipping the military - after all, look what was done to Kerry with barely a peep of outrage from the pundits. It's also, and probably more so, about who Big Bidness wants as president. And it would appear that they want someone who will lower corporate taxes, continue to squelch the middle class, and do whatever it takes to keep the powerful and wealthy in their ever-so-lofty position.
It's the military industrial complex at work here. McCain is their man. Kerry, every bit as much a "hero," was not.
wcdevins- Agree with some, but McCain can hardly be blamed for the fire on the Forrestal. His plane was hit by a zuni rocket that fired from another aircraft into his because of a short.
I do think that McCain should (like Kerry should of) talk about what he has done in the recent past, and not parade his military service.
The truth, as witnessed in all of the above posts, is not pretty. It is the principal reason the American public may very well continue to elect liars to the office of POTUS. The American public doesn't like the nasty ugly truth that former President Clinton was, perhaps still is, a serial philanderer and sexual cheater in his marriage. The American public doesn't like the ugly truth that both President Bush and Vice President Cheney are possibly pathological liars. They don't like the ugly truth that all three of these public officials were Vietnam War draft dodgers in the real if not the legal sense and/or used papa's influence to avoid being sent to Vietnam during his checkered military reserve service. So to reflect what they believe the American public wants to read or see the MSM provides us with luke warm print pablum and pretty soft focused TV pictures. They have been doing the same thing with John McCain since he was released from the Hanoi Hilton roughly 35 years ago. What makes us think that just because he is running for the most important elected office in the world the MSM is suddenly going to take an honest unvarnished look at what the good Senator has really done in his adult life. Forget it. The truth is ugly and painful. The US public and the US MSM don't like ugly and painful. They like pretty soft focused pictures that make it seem as if the USA is some kind of wonderland led by noble guys who only screwed up a few times when they were young. How sad and tragic for the public and for the truth.
MickUltra is as much a hero as the shrub is a pilot...both spoiled rich kids who have made a science of out lying..that's why they get along so well! Only difference is MickUltra is pissed at the world...the shrub is not even aware he's in this reality.
And DD, I totally agree with you
It says a lot about Americans too
What is troubling is the "cult of the military" which has developed in this country. If someone wears a uniform to "serve" their country then they are to be treated as individuals beyond reproach. This same mentality was fostered by the Nazis. Without their loss of WWII all of their offocers would have gotten off scott free as well. Goes back to history being written by the victors (and justice applying only to the loosers). That McCAin spent time in a POW camp is deplorable. It would raise questions as to his psychological stability to be a president however.
Fantastic article and also much of what I was getting at in my blog entry yesterday: http://chriscommons.blogspot.com
I was amazed at how this exchange between Schieffer and Clark blew up in the corporate media.
Street porter that plays pushpin and studies philosophy at night classes is what we need
McCain thinks he's safe as long as he can steer the discussion away from his weaknesses, the issues that the neo-con toads have NEVER been right about. His supposedly endearing take on Ronald Reagan will only work with the short-term memory loss crowd. I've seen Alzheimer's and Dementia up close, it's never cute. Maybe he thinks it's the best way to remind people about his salad days in the Hanoi Hilton. We need a President who's got all his wits about him, sir.
Shot down while bombing civilians over the Gulf of Tonkin lie....
it's about time the democrats played hardball....keep hitting'em with the truth and the facts HARD !...DON'T BACK DOWN ! the GAS and OIL PARTY,don't like the taste of their own medicine,and they can't handle it ! what makes john mccain a hero ? can someone answer that question ?
So if McCain becomes president, is he still going to receive the $58,000 a year disability pension he receives and on top of the $400,000 a year salary as president? If he is fit enough to be president, why is he receiving a tax free disability pension?
McCain is only trying to head off Clark being chosen as VP. He knows that Clark's loyalty to the Republic is far superior to any anybody who may have graduated at the bottom of the USNA. McCain's loyalty to neo-con hacks (who also never got it right) and the ranks of those who never stopped giving credit (or blaming) their invisible playmates. John McCain is trying to run on the only platform he's got. Like George W. Bush, HE is the only one crazy enough to scare those bad old terrorists into submission. How's that been working for the Grand Old Pussies lately?
How has the Viet Nam war become rehabilitated to the point where the people who fought there were "heroes". It's like calling fallen Nazi S.S. members heroes. Does this country really have such amnesia that it can't recall that the whole thing was a war crime to begin with and many Americans refused to have anything to do with it? John McCain was a coward who dropped cluster bombs and napalm from high in the sky and then flew back to the U.S.S. Forestall for some burgers and beer. Before he burned the ship down that is. But that's another story.
wcdevins,
Thanks for some more of THE STORY. Especially your third point above.
wcdevins,
Thanks for some more of THE STORY. Especially your third point above.
Doug Valentine has the goods on McCain:
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine06132008.html
Superb.
Oh, wcdevins? Nice list; well stated.
McCain is as dumb as George. That´s why Americans will elect him president. God help us!
THE STORY on McCain is that, as a USNA "legacy", he finished with a class rank of 895 out of 899.
THE STORY on McCain is that he lost three jets out from under him before he was shot down, including one which hit high tension lines when he buzzed a beach, and another when he was returning home from an Army-Navy game, possibly after too much drinking.
THE STORY on McCain is that without his family name, the above two stories would have washed him out of flight qualification forever.
THE STORY on McCain is that his "fighter pilot bravado" caused the fire on the USS Forrestal that killed ~150 sailors.
THE STORY on McCain is that he collaborated with the Viet Cong for special, especially medical, treatment and was known to his co-prisoners as "Songbird".
THE STORY on McCain is that when he came home from Viet Nam and found his faithful wife had lost her great looks in a horrible car accident, he went shopping around for a new trophy and started sleeping with Cindy while still married.
THE STORY on McCain is that he will do anything to get elected, including sucking up to the "Agents of Intolerance" and Bush's billionaire base.
THE STORY on McCain is that he is a hot-headed, dim-witted child of privilege (like anyone else we know?) who is (equally) unfit for the presidency.
Since when does the cowardly bombing of civilians qualify one as a "war hero?" 100 per cent disabled - $58 thou a year - the military is the biggest welfare system in the world. [for some people]
I'm sorry McCain endured being a POW. But that experience, if anything, makes him more likely to have questionable judgment in military matters than likely to have good judgment. Ditto his mega-officer ancestors whom he has not been able (in his own mind) to keep up with.
THE STORY on McCain is his being so hot-headed as a kid that his classmates nick-named him McNasty. THE STORY on McCain is his pride of a hard-drinking skirt-chasing youth.
THE STORY on McCain is 25 years of profiting off beer sold to the economic underclass in 30-packs at the C-stores. None of that predicts leadership. It shouldn't take Gen. Clark for us to know this, but at least Gen. Clark has an earned right to be speaking by virtue of his own experiences in uniform. I wish he'd just go further with it.
Electing McCain because of POW stuff ain't much different than being swiftboated again. Wrong leader for wrong reason, elected (if he is) by the wrong crowd.