Cheney, Others OK’d Harsh Interrogations
Bush administration officials from Vice President Dick Cheney on down signed off on using harsh interrogation techniques against suspected terrorists after asking the Justice Department to endorse their legality, The Associated Press has learned.
The officials also took care to insulate President Bush from a series of meetings where CIA interrogation methods, including waterboarding, which simulates drowning, were discussed and ultimately approved.
A former senior U.S. intelligence official familiar with the meetings described them Thursday to the AP to confirm details first reported by ABC News on Wednesday. The intelligence official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the issue.
Between 2002 and 2003, the Justice Department issued several memos from its Office of Legal Counsel that justified using the interrogation tactics, including ones that critics call torture.
“If you looked at the timing of the meetings and the memos you’d see a correlation,” the former intelligence official said. Those who attended the dozens of meetings agreed that “there’d need to be a legal opinion on the legality of these tactics” before using them on al-Qaida detainees, the former official said.
The meetings were held in the White House Situation Room in the years immediately following the Sept. 11 attacks. Attending the sessions were Cheney, then-Bush aides Attorney General John Ashcroft, Secretary of State Colin Powell, CIA Director George Tenet and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice.
The White House, Justice and State departments and the CIA refused comment Thursday, as did a spokesman for Tenet. A message for Ashcroft was not immediately returned.
Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., lambasted what he described as “yet another astonishing disclosure about the Bush administration and its use of torture.”
“Who would have thought that in the United States of America in the 21st century, the top officials of the executive branch would routinely gather in the White House to approve torture?” Kennedy said in a statement. “Long after President Bush has left office, our country will continue to pay the price for his administration’s renegade repudiation of the rule of law and fundamental human rights.”
The American Civil Liberties Union called on Congress to investigate.
“With each new revelation, it is beginning to look like the torture operation was managed and directed out of the White House,” ACLU legislative director Caroline Fredrickson said. “This is what we suspected all along.”
The former intelligence official described Cheney and the top national security officials as deeply immersed in developing the CIA’s interrogation program during months of discussions over which methods should be used and when.
At times, CIA officers would demonstrate some of the tactics, or at least detail how they worked, to make sure the small group of “principals” fully understood what the al-Qaida detainees would undergo. The principals eventually authorized physical abuse such as slaps and pushes, sleep deprivation, or waterboarding. This technique involves strapping a person down and pouring water over his cloth-covered face to create the sensation of drowning.
The small group then asked the Justice Department to examine whether using the interrogation methods would break domestic or international laws.
“No one at the agency wanted to operate under a notion of winks and nods and assumptions that everyone understood what was being talked about,” said a second former senior intelligence official. “People wanted to be assured that everything that was conducted was understood and approved by the folks in the chain of command.”
The Office of Legal Counsel issued at least two opinions on interrogation methods.
In one, dated Aug. 1, 2002, then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee defined torture as covering “only extreme acts” causing pain similar in intensity to that caused by death or organ failure. A second, dated March 14, 2003, justified using harsh tactics on detainees held overseas so long as military interrogators did not specifically intend to torture their captives.
Both legal opinions since have been withdrawn.
The second former senior intelligence official said rescinding the memos caused the CIA to seek even more detailed approvals for the interrogations.
The department issued another still-secret memo in October 2001 that, in part, sought to outline novel ways the military could be used domestically to defend the country in the face of an impending attack. The Justice Department so far has refused to release it, citing attorney-client privilege, and Attorney General Michael Mukasey declined to describe it Thursday at a Senate panel where Democrats characterized it as a “torture memo.”
Not all of the principals who attended were fully comfortable with the White House meetings.
The ABC News report portrayed Ashcroft as troubled by the discussions, despite agreeing that the interrogations methods were legal.
“Why are we talking about this in the White House?” the network quoted Ashcroft as saying during one meeting. “History will not judge this kindly.”
Associated Press writer Pete Yost contributed to this report.
On the Net:
CIA: http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/
© 2008 Associated Press
WOW! Our elected officials saying torture is alright while keeping the Commander-In-Chimp protected from all knowledge? Who’d have ever imagined?
I guess this means torture is alright for all of us now (receiving not giving of course).
Sadism was clear from Bush’s resume as Governor of Texas who presided over many unnecessary executions of prisoners, quite a few lacking viable counsel.
The notion of the chain of command approving what no soul in his or her right mind would approve is a replay of the defense that never proved solid at the Geneva Conventions: “I was only following orders.” There is ALWAYS a higher authority than the mistaken “leader,” and that authority is WRIT into the heart and soul of any still human, breathing being. For relinquishing loyalty to that authority, those who willfully torture others will one day find themselves in the torturer’s seat. Karma is an equal opportunity deployer, but its full story does not necessarily play out (i.e. demonstrate) within the span of a single lifetime.
Traitors-all. This is a list of traitors.
When someone like John Ashcroft shows qualms of conscience, you can be sure the situation is dire.
There’s only one reason to insulate the president from these talks: to shield him from accountability. They knew what they were doing was criminal and impeachable. They should all be removed from office and shipped off to the Hague for trial.
Attorney-client privilege? Who is the client of the Justice Department? When they bring a case to trial, it isn’t “the administration vs. Doe” or “the president vs. Smith.” The “client” supposedly represented by the Attorney General is THE PEOPLE. How can you justify withholding information from your own client by attorney-client privilege? Come on, Mr. Mukasey, give us the memo.
OK, so when do the trials start?
The ‘indictment’ starts in the House and the ‘trial’ concludes in the Senate. Each American has a vote for their Housemember and a vote for each of their Senators. We cannot directly indict and convict but we can sure do something about those who refuse to indict and convict.
Sioxrose
I have to agree with you as the US have become who they point their fingers at. The real crime is they put themselves above the rest, be it through education, military rewriting history or the bible. I feel not only the US is going in the wrong direction but the whole world. One for those who are doing these crimes but the countries that are not ( that we know of ) doing nothing about it. Why? oh maybe the US will put trade sanctions against that country who stands up to them or all of a sudden have one of those terrorist attacks happen in their country. ( happen far to often to be 100% AQ) Or find some background dirt on the Prez or PM of that country.
Sioxrose, one other thing I have noticed is the people who post on this and other web sites, have they ever been on a protest or PEACE march? Done some environmental thing to their home office or life style? From plant trees to drive if they have to a hybrid or bike? Some say don’t buy this product or that but in a few days/ hours it is a new topic and never a mention about it again.I am seeing the same postings for every topic but just a few words changed to fit the subject. I am not saying you are not doing your part Sioxrose but I fell several who are on the band wagon are not.
I’m concerned that many people just won’t care. I thought Abu Ghraib would have the entire nation up in arms but many people said aloud, “Good. I hope they suffer.” So though I really hope to see these jolly jokers tried for crimes against humanity, I’m not sure the majority of U.S. citizens understand or care why torture IS a crime.
Laws are only for us peasants to obey. Camera’s on street’s remotely sending ticket’s to poor citizen’s. Citizen’s being continously illegally spied upon. As the state takes our right’s, we are being boxed into ever smaller corner’s.
All the while our leaders decide which laws they will and will not obey and whether to give themselves retro-active imunity to the ones they have broke. Our court’s have been filled with enabler’s for these criminals [appointed by them] and our law enforcement agencies controlled by them.
These criminals must have their day in court, to insure that this type of perversion will not become the norm for our executives.
This is BS. To even suggest that bush was unaware and ‘carefully insulated’ as the article claims is preposterous.
The list is also too short. I’m certain there are many other names that are ‘left out’ of the Situation Room meetings.
Cheney is the vice-president, not the president. The blame for Iraq and the actions of US troops there rests solely on the shoulders of bush. This finger pointing is a waste of time. bush is the one that needs to be held accountable FIRST. After he is tried and sentenced to prison, then we should turn our attention to the other war criminals.
You have forgotten one very simple fact. They can’t stop 75% of the population of the USA, that are agaist the war, the economy, etc etc. Your postings are excuses for defeat. In every ( I will use the word change) there has to be one person who stands up and says I have had enough. There are several who are doing this right now. Be it from the people who write stories for CD or The Nation etc. Help these people is where it starts and next time there is a peaceful protest in your city, have just walk by and maybe join for a few minutes, you will feel great for doing it.
I have to go now a black SUV just pulled up the drive, HA HA HA
The Lorax
remember the new hate crimes put into place that is why the list is so short.
My memory of Nuremburg and the trial consequences comes to mind.
These meetings OK’ed the same type of treatment that Nuremburg convictees got the death penalty for.
Super post Siouxrose ! There some very sick minds and hearts operating in the Amerikan tragic theatre of the absurd.
I was feeling a little crazy this morning and decided to watch one of the morning talk shows (complete with beautiful media people) while jump starting my old brain with green.
And there in living color on the propaganda tube was Colin Powell as a famous person talking about how important it is to stress education these days with our children.
As we all know, Colon (his proper name) deliberately presented falsified WMD “intelligence” at the U.N. to begin a war of aggression (war crime) against Iraq. Going back in time, he was also part of the Mai Lai Massacre cover-up.
War criminals are now role models !
I wonder how loud the US will scream when some of it’s military bully boys are treated to ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ via creative use of electrical current or a propane torch?
Or would that be one of those pot/kettle/ both black moments?
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When do we start the war crimes trials? There is nothing left to say unless you are FOXXXY NEWS! Sioux Rose knows!
I can see the next PS3 game now. Capture the so called enemy and torture them to get info even if it maybe usless.
Who’s up to join a protest this weekend? Any takers?
The bias in the press is very evident in this article.
Instead of torture they write “harsh interrogation techniques.”
Instead of torturing prisoners we’re torturing “suspected terrorists” or “al-Qaida detainees.”
Actual induced drowning is mischaracterized as “waterboarding, which simulates drowning” or “the sensation of drowning.”
And assertions of fact, like “The officials also took care to insulate President Bush…” are presented as fact. Not only that, the implications of the assertion are ignored. Where is the headline that says, “Out of control VP keeps Bush in the dark”?
Just another day of news in the empire…
Good point the one to Sioxrose by good luck. It showed some guts to say what he did. Way to go GL.
Has Cheney had a stroke? Every photo shows him with lip drawn up on one side. If so, I don’t want him to have any more, especially when he stands accused before a war crimes tribunal. It won’t happen under the next presidency, but perhaps after 2016 Washington insiders in both parties will feel less protective of their boys (and girl). In the meantime, the ACLU’s call for Congress to investigate is surprisingly timid. If the Democrats weren’t such collaborationists and wet noodles, they would long ago have passed special prosecutor laws and repeals of the MCA war crimes amnesty for Bush to veto. But no, they only care about the mini-scandal of the US attorneys because it’s their own corrupt hides and patronage perks on the line.
ctrl:
It is an AP story and would have to be seen by the chief editor first. I am sure he had his red or ( blue) pen working
It also as GL said the hate crimes, you can’t tell the truth anymore it is against the law. Even the Bible by the new hate crime laws is illegal since it says things against Israel. So the news is now all fluffy and warm like slippers on a cold night
Good Luck wrote, “I can see the next PS3 game now. Capture the so called enemy and torture them to get info even if it maybe usless”
He got the platform wrong (but the rest right). This is from a review of the game ‘Altair’s Chronicles’ for the Nintendo DS:
“There is a torture minigame where you must tap pressure points in rhythm to force a target into spilling his guts.”
The following excerpt is an interpretation of American behavior at Abu Ghraib that you will not find in the corporate media:
” The specifically “porno-sadistic” character of the attacks on the Iraqi prisoners captured in the published photographs speaks to a level of cultural deprivation and backwardness that has reached alarming levels. Whatever their military objective may be, the acts committed suggest that their perpetrators have failed to pass through some critical phase in human development, that they suffer from arrested development.
What are we to make of men and women who sodomize defenseless prisoners with phosphoric lights and night-sticks? ”
From:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jun2004/tort-j10.shtml
And: Even if you do not consider yourself a “socialist” this website tends to be very accurate and pulls no punches on what America is doing in Iraq.
http://www.wsws.org/sections/category/news/me-iraq.shtml
and this is surprising to anybody, how?? SHOCKED, just SHOCKED to see that gambling is going on … [Casablanca].. folks, we couldnt stop it before. can anybody do so now?? IMPEACH, IMPEACH, IMPEACH.
McCain supports them all.
Opposition leadership is a failure. There are no laws if they are not enforced. Law-breaking and public relations lies have been wildly successful. The short term message is that corrupt people win. The long term message is, don’t worry, the quiet and honest sheeple will pay the tab. The reality is, the sheeple are broke. Now borrowed money is paying the tab through Sovereign Wealth Funds from China, Europe, and the Middle East. The message is live for today so that your children, grand children, and great grand children can suffer economically tomorrow. The sheeple are quiet and therefore agree. Those persons who do not agree and are active get put on persecution lists. KBR is building concentration camps to house them now. Torture is now as American as apple pie. Sterilization will be employed at these camps as well as medical experimentation. The Democrats will howl about funding it but will capitulate. Unabated, this is your future.
ctrl:
thanks for the correction, only have a PS2 and like racing more than fighting, it is just the way things are heading as I tried to say. I guess the kids today will accept this kind of treatment since it is getting drilled into their heads at a early age. I even notice with my kids the level of accepted violence is much higher than when I was younger. Still good kids and stay out of trouble.
As the administration of Dubya, Cheney, & Co. lurches to its’ hoped for, constitutionally mandated termination (Executive Directive 51 notwithstanding), an effort to prosecute these criminals should now be in the planning stage. In an ideal world, sigh!
Given Bush’s childhood propensity for mutilating small animals, and his torture (THERE I SAID IT!) of freshmen with lit cigarettes during his college days, is anyone at all surprised that his ENTIRE administration, nay JUNTA, is a a mob of delusional sociopaths who delight in inflicting pain, degradation and suffering on others?
This entire episode only reinforces the release of a recent psychiatric survey of North America that opined that psychopathic and sociopathic behavior was becoming more accepted as the ‘new normal’, and rising levels of violence were predictable.
Fall of Rome, folks, FALL OF ROME!
Duh!!! Why is this being reported now? We already know this. So what else is new? Is it going to take the media another 12-24 months to tell us George Bush, Dick Cheney & Co. are war criminals? I respect Senator Kennedy, but have to laugh at his astonishment when he received this information. Someone please hit the “fast forward” button on the VCR so the rest of this sordid drama can end, and Bush and his minions will go to prison.
I can’t imagine the Associated Press having all this information and our Justice Department “knows nothing”!
When the hell are we going to wake up? Lee Iocca had the right idea, “Start Yelling!”
Commenting on the relationship between the Western European colonization around the world and the emergence of the modern world system, Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed says that the modern world system has emerged “through a process of systematic genocidal violence conducted across disparate continents, killing in total thousands of millions of indigenous peoples in Africa, Asia and America.” He further notes that the modern world system “systematically generates genocidal violence against hundreds of millions of people…and systematically finds ways to legitimize this violence as normal, functional, necessary… for us to live, breathe and prosper.” In other words, the dominant political culture “mystifies and obscures the systematization and globalization of genocidal violence in the emergence, expansion and consolidation of the modern world system — not only since 1492, but even continuing past 1945 until now.”
The bases for the perpetuation of this world system that perpetuates genocidal violence and uses torture against those who oppose this violent system are:
1. Claim of moral authority as expressed by the French advocate of colonialism Jules Harmand:
“It is necessary, then, to accept as a principle and point of departure the fact that there is a hierarchy of races and civilizations, and that we belong to the superior race and civilization, still recognizing that, while superiority confers rights, it imposes strict obligations in return. The basic legitimation of conquest over native peoples is the conviction of our superiority, not merely our mechanical, economic, and military superiority, but our moral superiority. Our dignity rests on that quality, and it underlies our right to direct the rest of humanity. Material power is nothing but a means to that end.”
2. God’s authorization as claimed by John Ashcroft: He declared that U.S. freedoms are “not the grant of any government or document, but…our endowment from God.”
The other day one of my friends who is studying at Fuller Theological Seminary, CA, wrote to me about the answer given by a “Church History scholar” on Israel’s genocidal violence against Palestinians. To his astonishment, the “scholar” answered that the people of Israel are CHOSEN PEOPLE OF GOD. The implication is that they are authorized by God to use violence againSt anyone they consider “enemy”. Isn’t it the same attitude that controls the majority of American people, the American government, and the American companies about their own genocidal violence and torture of innocent people in their own country (Eg. Abu Ghraib).
The European and American culture itself is that it is OK for “US” to torture “OTHERS”, because “WE” do it to make the world safe. “WE” are civilized and morally superior nations. Moreover, “WE” have God’s authorization!!!!!!!!!
As long as this false attitude continues to govern the body, mind and soul of Europeans and Americans, they will continue to unleash violence and use torture against “OTHERS”. The public in these countries continue to elect those who are BETTER TORTURERS OF OTHERS, so that “they will be safe”.
They should be given the same treatment we gave the folks at Nuremberg. A fair trial and if convicted hung. If this were to occur it would give future leaders a reason to pause and think of what they could be held liable for.
I’m shocked, I tells ya - shocked!
I sooo believed Rush when he said, “I’m sorry, folks. I’m sorry. Somebody has to provide a little levity here. This is not as serious as everybody is making it out to be… This is a pure, media-generated story… I’m talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?”
“It’s a stain on our country’s honor and our country’s reputation,” President Bush said. “I am sickened by what I saw and sickened that people got the wrong impression.”
“We do not torture,” Bush said. But, he added: “I determine that common Article 3 of Geneva does not apply to either al-Qaeda or Taliban detainees.”
The warped Supreme Court, however, reminded The Decider that “violations of Common Article 3 are considered ‘war crimes,’ punishable as federal offenses.”
“So?” responded 4th Branch Executive Cheney.
“I don’t care what anybody says,” added candidate McCrazy…
So when do we lean out our windows and yell as a people:
‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!”
timebiter, you write:
‘ They should be given the same treatment we gave the folks at Nuremberg. A fair trial and if convicted hung. If this were to occur it would give future leaders a reason to pause and think of what they could be held liable for.’
But it didn’t did it? Did any politicians (US or UK) in high places give a toss about Nuremberg’s ’supreme international crime’, a war of agression. I wonder also if even one soldier had been schooled in either the Geneva, Hague or Nuremberg Conventions and Principles?
Iraq and Afghanistan threatened no one. Countries in the real world, are not attacked because a criminal might live there. There would not be any lands left on the planet.
Someone joked today that Orwell’s ‘1984′ was no longer being used as a warning of a terrifying totalitarian state, but as an ‘operating manual’ by those in high places. Indeed. Be very afraid.
Best, j.
PS yes Cheney has had a number of strokes and accidentally mistook his shooting partner for a quail - heaven help us all.
Right Wing AmeriKKKa the real threat to democracy
This story was broken by ABC Wednesday night. The A/P story circulated yesterday and was picked up by the Wash. Post and SF Chron for toady.
Thundering silence so far from NYTimes and other major papers.
The game is afoot. It makes no difference how you label the acts of torture. They speak for themselves.
Whether or not how our (in)Justice system plays out on this one, the decision makers (as I understand - need help) can be tried at the Hague and be subject to arrest - a la Pinochet if they travel elsewhere. They would have to be veerry careful where they go.
Woof Woof! Watch out, Cheney bites!
I think that Cheney being involved in this is old news - but if we can bring him down over this - if we can prove that he had undo influence over Yoo, for instance.
Siouxrose - Sadism precisely. And sadism, along with our higher authority, is also writ into our hearts and souls.
Remember when Abu Ghraib hit the fan? Confronted with this unintended peek at America’s pornography stash, everybody in Congress swore we would get to the bottom of it. Sadism is everybody’s dirty little secret, as any Freudian can tell you, and it does not like the light of day very much. So sure enough, after a few weeks Abu Ghraib joined the Basra Highway and the Massacre of Fallujah and the extermination of native Americans and Bob Guccione’s Caligula safely back in America’s unconscious.
I don’t get much response to this idea, but I’ll say it again. As long as we think of sadism as something “over there” in other people, we will be ruled by sadism. Like the little dead girl from the well, it never sleeps. When our casus belli is the evil in the heart of the enemy, we become what we hate. I don’t know how we go about acting on this knowledge. I would certainly rather chop Dick Cheney into pieces than send him chocolate chip cookies, and I’m sure my closet sadist would like that very much.
They didn’t have to OK torture. Listening to them is torture. Seeing them is torture. Reading about them is torture. Knowing they have a scintilla of power over the direction of my beloved country is torture. Seven years and counting of unremitting torture.
Laundry and paintings are “hung.”
Traitors and war criminals are “hanged.”
If any of these bastard ever get convicted of anything you can be sure that the President in office will pardon them as Ford did Nixon. I forget his reasoning if there was any but it will be something like “to quell the political acrimony so that we can get back to the business of the people”-yeah, right!
Oh, and another thing I noticed when this article hit the wire, the term “harsh interrogation” is used instead of terrorism so that is still OK (just my conjecture) with the public, torture is what other people do to Americans and harsh interrogation is what Americans do to other people.
Cheney isn’t hung, from all reports I’ve read. I don’t think any of these people are.
Opinionated:
I agree. Unfortunately, many Amerikans, including staunch, long-time members of the Democratic party, (how they describe themselves) feel that it’s okay to “do a little torture.” They say, “compared to what happened on 9-11?”
To which I reply, “The people we’re torturing are responsible for 9-11?”
They come back with “Do you know the score of the fill-in-team-name game?”
At which point my head explodes.
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah…So what’s going to be done about it? NOTHING!!!!! That’s right! Not a goddamned thing! The dems are so damned spineless they’ve thrown away a golden opportunity to regain power for a generation, and do the right thing by standing up to this dictatorial adminstration. By not doing what is necessary, impeachment, the congress has lowered the bar so low, any future adminstration can do just about anything. The repugnants don’t even try to pretend to do the right thing anymore, if they ever did. They just back the madness no questions asked..literally! And far too many Americans are too ignorant or just plain brainwashed they could care less, or don’t even know their country has been stolen. So what do the rest of us do? We either stay and hope things don’t get as bad as they might, or we immigrate to places that are still democracies. I hear Canada calling.
Traitors and war criminals are “hanged.”
“hanged by the neck until dead” to be precise.
Why does this issue on torture get more press coverage than killing over half a million civilians in an unjust war to control the natural resources of another country? As our administration beats the drums for an attack on Iran for control of its natural resources it seems that torture is the least of our problems.
Torture is a useless tool. There are drugs that are faster and are a more efficient means of obtaining information.
Have you considered that this issue of torture, in the media, is being used to misdirect your attention from other things.
Namaste made me laugh better than I had all day! Thank you. Do you speak Hindi?
Do most Americans know/care how few nations refuse to sign international treaties banning torture? America’s media is all over China for brutalizing Tibet, but Cheney can legalize torture and wage an illegal war over falsified documents under the radar?
How many times has it been in your local paper that the Iraq War was ruled illegal by our peers in the UN? I have seen it mentioned only once, the day after the UN press release. Plus, the article in my paper blew it off as if it didn’t matter. It was similar to Cheney saying “So.”
How will this all end? Aren’t the history books full of cases just like the America we are living in? This is the part where the rest of the world says, “Okay we’ve had enough of your shit.”
Will they give Cheney and Bush 48 hours to pack their bags and move to Bermuda or strike without warning?
One more lump of elephant dung on the pile. When piled so high and deep, they all look the same.
I should expect something to come of this exactly why?
I mean, it’s not as if the elephant in the room hasn’t crapped on the floor before.
Remember, in order to ignore the elephant in the room, one must also ignore it’s excrement.
Boycott the Olympics. This year’s and all others to come, Summer and Winter.
Better yet, CANCEL them!
They are an affront to the culture that they are modeled on.
I know they were started as a way for countries to come together and compete in peaceful ways and share their cultures with the rest of the world so that we might learn. But all the olympics are now is just another corporate profit driven distraction. One where ‘athletes’ RELY on drugs and blood doping to ‘break’ records that will fall in a matter of months to another drug fueled mutant.
Dear Congress, You now have my permission to initiate impeachment proceedings. I am sorry to keep you waiting so long, but it is ok, do it! Then also start the proceedings for war crimes, that will be ok too!
VOXCLAMANTIS: Is sadism innate? Or is it perhaps a response to the repression of healthy sexuality as used by the church for centuries, a behavior mod approach that stems from the LIE about “original sin” a/k/a carnal knowledge.
J. Conrad: Thank you for the validation.
GOOD LUCK: I have been in peace marches since I was a teen. On a personal level, apart from driving a car, I am 90% vegetarian, use mostly recycled items, keep a VERY low electric bill, and try to maintain a small ecological footprint. I write children’s books in an attempt to share a greener understanding with the generation that will be left to cope with the ravages of militarism, materialism and racism.
CTRL-Z: Excellent comment as per the mangling of language. It’s the marriage of Lakoff’s insightful work on framing of issues, mixed with the old nazi realizations about propaganda as per the lie told often enough is perceived a truth.
DEEPA: Profound comment (as always). I appreciate the effort to teach and enlighten that you so often bring to the CD forum.
I think Plato had something to say about the way that governments of all stripes like to spread the blame around. I think a previous regime referred to it internally as “plausible deniability.”
Namaste: I can see it now, Halloween 2020 AD… all the kids fight over the “DICK CHENEY” costume, part vampire/part madman/part Frankenstein, dark legend in his own time…
Bear in mind that the simplest solutions are the most elusive. Eigthy percent of Americans want the government to end the occupation of Iraq. Cheney’s popularity is below 20 percent, a bit worse than Congress as a whole. Bush is below 35 percent. So?
The simplest solution is a constitutional amendment to allow for removal from office by popular referendum. We get that one amendment to the Constitution and these officials, like Cheney, won’t say “So?” anymore.
And this not some idealistic pie-in-the-sky idea. California did it to Gov. Davis. Many nations can do it. Venezuela just had a referendum for amendments. They can already recall their president. (It didn’t pass.) So can many US states.
The states can force an amendment or a convention accorting to Article V. We need two-thirds of the legislatures for proposal and three-forths for passage.
For more details see:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/03/AR2007080301952.html?hpid=opinionsbox2
Ouster By the People
By Robert Dallek
Sunday, August 5, 2007; Page B07
My question are these: why is no one taking about this? Such an amendment is Cheney’s worst nightmar. Why not fulfill his nightmare?
GALEN: I’m glad you brought up the point about those who normalize what no sane of so-called civilized society ever should… WHAT passes for normal in America seems like a controlled demolition to the development of whole (as in holistic) souls! The constant barrage of violence in our entertainment media, the frenzy on the roadways (speeding, aggression & road rage), the crime statistics, the excuses to make-war, the “leadership” a bunch of likely impotent bullies, the growth of porn… add to this the specific numbers of obese persons, addicted persons, psychologically maimed persons and this nation is coming apart at the seams.
When I see someone like Dr. Phil–who I term one of the “elite programmers” telling someone else how to live, as if EVERY life should follow the same recipe, and as if American norms somehow constitute a viable basis for behavior, I want to scream at any audience member to break their trance. I looked this chump up and sure enough, lots of VIRGO. That’s the sign of rules, lists, categories, and delineations… all fine and good when taken within the context of the HOLY circle. On its own, it’s MONK crossed with a dark Sigmund Freud… as if ONLY one set of behaviors could be characterized as viable!
‘I’M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I’M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!” Galen made this comment urging people to yell it out the window.
Good idea. I’m sure Bush will stop his world conquest as a result. I mean all those people yelling would upset him. The noise would be horrendous.
I mean, it’s a good idea and all but surely if everyone marched on Washington, I mean ‘everyone’, it might just have a bit more impact! What do you think?
P.S. Does America’s Constitution cause Americans to be violent? Check my humble blog for answers.
Siouxrose - I don’t know whether sadism is innate. The best explanations of it are anthropological accounts of our collective psychology - and so, unavoidably, our individual psychologies. Aggression is innate, since we probably bring that with us from our days as one-celled animicules, and according to guys like Erich Fromm it got nudged from healthy aggression to malignant aggression about the time of the first agricultural civilizations, e.g. the first male dominated societies based on the hoarding of goods (surplus on account of agriculture), empire, slavery, dominance etc. The goddess Tiamat was dead, along with hunter-gatherer matriarchies. The cruelty required by this new agenda was, by this account, the birth of sadism. Since it is now internalized by us, it is a kind of original sin rather than something biologically innate. Of course this is only neo-Freudian speculation. But I’m pretty sure sadism predates Christianity. Bronze Age kings did really awful things to their vanquished enemies, and left us some graphic bas relief war porn to remember them by. Misogyny also predates Christianity and Judaism, as evidenced by the slaying of Tiamat by male gods who, jealous of her ability to create biologically, got things to happen by pointing and yelling. (Being male, I must also say that women, though perhaps not as aggressive as men, are also infected by sadism and its many hidden forms. The women in many Native American tribes were in charge of torture, and were really good at it.)
Like yourself I am hopeful for the human prospect. We are a grand experiment, for all our monstrosity. Something has gone wrong with our evolution, and it remains to be seen whether what is excellent and hopeful in us prevails over what is broken and corrupted. As dark as things get, we have individual and collective choices and a spiritual dimension that can not be quantified.
Well I am shocked!
VOX: As always, interesting and evocative posting. I would only differ as to suggesting it’s not the evolution, per se, that’s gone off course, but the vehicles in which it has been forced to move. When the haves have so much more than others, when societies allow for hierarchies and use religion to justify these, when suffering goes unremedied, then anger and the urge to retaliate (that can deteriorate into sadism) result. Human nature, perhaps like raw clay, is molded by a number of factors… like biological evolution, it responds to the climate it finds itself immersed in.
If I’m really, really bad, can Dana Perino torture me?
Oops! Wrong site!
Earthian: Article V attempts have all been ignored by congress. This is I believe , illegal, but apparently that is the case. Properly submitted requests with signatures etc. are simply not acted upon. Period. Correct me if I’m wrong.
To all- What would Darth Cheny constitute as personal torture? that is, torture that he had to endure?
Forcibly attend a peace rally? Be presented with the bill for funeral of each individual dead Iraqi? (hmmm… that one MIGHT make him scream…no, wait. he would take that as a sign of ‘progress’).
I know… strap him to a chair and make him watch as Dubya spills his guts under sodium pentothal assisted interrogation by Interpol and the International Criminal Court in the Hauge.
GALEN: I think it would be more like watching hippies smoke joints and sing peace songs… you know, a 60’s redux.
If the likes of John Ashcroft says, “History will not judge this kindly,” then maybe the country truly deserves what is about to befall upon the “good Amerikaners” who fail to hold the criminals accountable.
No justice, no peace, no prosperity, no freedom. If there is no impeachment or indictment, there can only be the inevitable downfall. Democracy and freedom face their final test.
Dick Cheney’s bumper sticker:
“My America doesn’t torture wealthy political elite Anglo-Saxon American males.”
andrew.herman — No hindi, but I do know lots of Sanskrit mantras,
like the Om Mani Padme Hum mantra:
Namaste
NAMASTE: do you design websites? I have 2 concepts for a LIVING on-line style moder oracle. I have ZERO computer skills to implement it. Your use of graphics even on this site is impressive. Can we discuss?
It’s ok, they are Republicans no one will hold them accountable.
They are just doing what is best for all the poor lost sheeple, who are too stupid to think for them selves.
There’s good news in this. If we ever get to a more just world where such crimes are investigated and prosecuted, there is now a very solid case against these individuals for war crimes charges. Same for Bush since another story today has a quote from him saying he was aware of this.
That’s all that’s needed. The US used this legal principle in its charges against Slobidan Milosovic (Yugoslavia). The legal principle is one of being in responsible charge. If these people were aware of this, and even if they didn’t explicitly approve it, they still had a responsibility to act to make sure that the organizations they are running did not commit these crimes. All that’s needed is to prove that they were aware of it and did not act to stop it.
All these individuals now join the Henry Kissinger club of having to talk to their lawyer before going overseas to make sure that its safe for them to travel to a specific country. Because if they go to the wrong country, they can now end up in a jail cell and facing charges.
What we can hope for and what we should be working for is that someday the US is one of those countries. I look forward to the day where all of these people know if they ever set foot in the US again that it will lead to a life sentence in a federal prison for war crimes. The evidence is clearly there. What’s needed is a country that returns to being committed to human rights and human decency and the truth and the rule of law such that charges will be placed … someday.
Its incredible to me that 60% of Republicans still support Bush…
“Highlighting Bush’s broad unpopularity, 60 percent of Republicans approved of his overall job, his weakest showing yet with members of his own party. Just 7 percent of Democrats and 17 percent of independents approve.”
“On the economy, 54 percent of Republicans approve of Bush’s efforts, another low.”
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jR80ylRipRFz_BSPltSUJ06-lMegD8VV3RI00
What a Bush Crime Family achievement—They’ve made it TORTURE to keep yourself informed
Sioxrose:
That is more than most from the impression I get. I was saying I feel most of the posting are not on that level.
Hope you are a tree planter as well
Hakori, Democrats don’t care if they win or lose. They’ll just go along with whatever the Republicans want anyway since they pretty much want the same things, so it’s no loss to them whenever they lose.
These A-holes would make Torquemada proud. They are all a bunch of cowards who should be tried as war criminals. I wonder how Cheney’s pacemaker would hold up under water boarding.
Don’t blame the Repugs only, blame the Dems too. SO, Madame Pelosy, impeachment and accountability is off the table, huh?
Based on your performance neither of the Dem candidates will get my vote…..
Criminals and complicit, thats what we have with the two parties….
The Dems will screw you just like the Reps, the only difference is Dems probably use Vaseline.
In a just society all of these officials would now be behind bars serving long prison sentences. Of course, now that I think of it, in a just society they would never have risen to the positions they occupied.
SIOUXROSE — I’ve played quite a bit on web pages, and know the notes (for web serving), but the full score of the music is yet to beholden. I do have an extensive library of mostly unread books, that with the proper target in mind, I believe that I can deliver - I just have needed the reason to focus (besides photo albums)
I’ve actually considered branching into such, and still am looking for a job, and possibly a new career. I’ll post you a note on your site. ( I’ve been sourcing abundant prosperity BEINGness, perhaps my train has gotten closer than I think)
Starwars is just so boring (like right through the Earth to the other side, it’s unholy)
Namaste
Actually, what I do herein, is mere HTML parlor tricks, that is basic cut and paste following a recipe (incantations) - I can email you the “dictionary”
Voxclamantis wrote: “Something has gone wrong with our evolution, and it remains to be seen whether what is excellent and hopeful in us prevails over what is broken and corrupted.”
Vox, this is a central theme of very advanced Biology. To date, the results favor hunter killer man.
Someone asked about trails: is that a joke?
The Democratic controlled house and Senate are as culpable as the scum who authorized it. When are you people going to WAKE UP! The is no difference between either corporate party.
IMPEACHMINT I SCREAM flyer &
PEACEIMPEACH poster
>>
www.Gg-Re.org/impeachmint.pdf
www.Gg-Re.org/peaceimpeach.pdf
~~~
“PIECES O PEACE PO”
123+ poems on one peace of paper
>>
www.Gg-Re.org/POS/2002-2020/PIECES-O-PEACE-PO-1.pdf
www.Gg-Re.org/POS/2002-2020/PIECES-O-PEACE-PO-2.pdf
-
Gg Re
Doom n Gloom
Advanced biology would likely not use words like “gone wrong” - as I do - to describe the course of our evolution. I’m thinking of Dawkins, who does, however, say that cooperative behaviors, for reasons having nothing to do with niceness, can outperform selfish behaviors survival-wise.
Natural aggression, according to Fromm, includes natural predation, i.e. hunter killer survival. I watch bobcats out my window, and I notice that other creatures are not as afraid of them as they are of me. I have been offended by this, until I notice that bobcats are not, in addition to being predators, mean, sadistic sons of bitches like we humans have become. We are a rare event in nature. We are aggression which has become malignant. We kill for target practice. We enjoy the suffering of others. We’ve gone a bit haywire.
I am amazed by the head chimp. After all the work they did to protect him and give him “plausable deniability’, he admits he ‘knew’ and approved it.
I guess never leaving his Texas ranch is OK.
P.S.
Just checked NY Times - still silent on the whole enchilada - not even Bush ‘ s approval.
They also are pushing the Columbia agreement , FTW
What was a
NAZI WAR CRIME IN 1945 IS NOW AMERIKKKAN FOREIGN POLICY
What was a
NAZI WAR CRIME IN 1945 IS NOW AMERIKKKAN FOREIGN POLICY
What was a
NAZI WAR CRIME IN 1945 IS NOW AMERIKKKAN FOREIGN POLICY
What was a
NAZI WAR CRIME IN 1945 IS NOW AMERIKKKAN FOREIGN POLICY
Wonder what the pay scale is for torturing humans?
Maybe it’s no-pay, but just for sexual gratification, so the torturer has to pay to do it?
NAMASTE: Let’s discuss… as for emailing me computer style data, thanks, but it won’t work. I joke that I am missing a left brain, due to the amount of use of the right brain. I find it maddening to hook up any electronics, etc. Just NOT my thing.
GOOD LUCK: Funny you should mention it… I just planted a fig, orange, peach, and pear tree; and am now following DOOM & GLOOM’s advice and learning to plant a garden of food items. I plan to teach my grandson as I learn. Plus this topic is central to my latest children’s book which I just self-published… a little girl, Cassandra, challenges her grandfather, a scientist, to gardening techniques. She uses no pesticides, but like the fascinating Findhorn Garden, receives help from the elemental kingdoms for not doing so; whilst he, an advocate of all those “chemical advances” of science, does it his toxic way. Guess who wins in my story?
Court TV now called Tru TV now and owned by CNN had a trial of an 18 year old who lured a person into his garage and the 18 year old along with his “friends, killed the innocent man by attacking him from behind with a knife and cutting his throat and then the little darlings sawed his head off and thru it into the river. The whole affair was planned because those teenagers simply “hated” that gue and thought he needed to be killed.
Any connection with this behavior and what is going on around the globe with torture and beheading including that our government could not take the high road on this behavior and stand firm AGAINST torture.?
“Actually, what I do herein, is mere HTML parlor tricks, that is basic cut and paste following a recipe (incantations) - I can email you the “dictionary” ”
Namaste, would you mind passing that info on to me as well, if it’s not too much trouble? I’ve been wanting a little push to get into this for a while now.
Treason.
So, what’s a patriot to do?
Voxclamantis, I have noticed that each animal has a different degree of what I might call personal space. A red fox will allow me to get within about forty feet. The deer are about the same, and that is if they get to know you. The raccoon will get within five or six feet and when they get to know you will approach much closer. I try to respect their wildness but yet create a sense of ease in my presence. I do spend a lot of time outdoors and my presence, over time, has resulted in a kind of general acceptance of me as a natural part of the environment. My garden is as much a food plot for them as it is for me. I have learned over time which plants each animal likes. The woodchuck loves cucumber leaves. The deer like sunflower stalks and leaves so I plant many extra to make sure I have sunflowers. I share the corn with the deer. The deer also like the pole beans. The turtles will eat the tomatoes that are low hanging on the bush so I leave those for them. We all seem to be co-existing is a respectful but natural way.
Where did all the Bush/Cheney SUV bumper stickers go?
Those stupid effin “we support our murderers” stickers?
Listening to these trumpeting anti-patriots has been PURE TORTURE.
arkitekton — Here’s some of my past ones on CD (more later, maybe best to remember this thread, once it goes into archives, unlikely anyone would look here again):
FORMATING TEXT (HTML) on CD
======================
I’ve seen PEOPLE’s comments : ” the edit function is STILL NOT WORKING!!!!!!”
(1). The 2nd (or 3rd) time into an edit, the actual text will not be properly shown after a re-fresh
(2). The refresh of the actual corrections that have been made, that weren’t really lost, may take a half hr or so to show.
(3). The web page refresh is even more quirky with the JAVA count-down timer, and automatic addition to the URL of the thread’s new addition (see navigation bar). Each article is of the form:
while the individual posts after the fact can be recalled directly by referencing the URL:
(4). THe text strings are defined as follows:
======================
TO INSERT ART (from an existing web site, you know URL of, or right click it)
N OT E__ that I’ve added spaces HERE between HTML delimiter TAGs “< " and "<"
so that the editer wont interpret them as desired formating, and make them disappear from view
That didn't work so I doubled the < < < s, of which one needs a single one each time
______________________________________
several blank lines
several blank lines
several blank lines
<< center >>
< < img src="http://dharma-haven.org/tibetan/prwhbl2-.gif"/ >>< < /a >>
< < /center >>
several blank lines
several blank lines
several blank lines
______________________________________
Here’s the HIDDEN TRICK,
the text editor S/W on CD “hates” for this to be done, so
IT WONT WORK THE FIRST TIME, EVER
ONE MUST persevere, and redit and paste exactly the same stuff (and when you re-edit, you’ll see why as
the edit auto-deletes much of the HTML format stuf on the 1st cycle, but then figures youy really meant it the 2nd cycle (or so I deduced)
Namaste
ALSO The hidden backdrop for web pages is HTML, which is very boring in all of its messy details, like circles within circles within circles of loops and structures.
The really nice thing about ALL browsers, is they will let you actually “see” their SOURCE
and once you (cntl-U for some) display it, It then allows one search through it
THIS IS ANOTHER trick
Before selecting “SHOW SOURCE”, copy a small piece of text from the overall page that you are looking at (in it’s normal form) — once all of that confusing dozens of pages of HTML are brought up (usually a new window opens)
This is where one needs to do a SEARCH cntrl-F usually, using that saved text fragment from the normal view cntrl-V for PASTE into finder field,
and then the page will scroll down to the equivalent HTML section that was actually used to display the normal page that you’re familiar seeing — with the select text fragment highlighted.
AS one becomes more daring, and explores the uniquely bizarre topology of HTML, and any particular web page or portion of it, THINGs will start to emerge as being “the same” representing the hidden equivalence –
and most importantly, the imbedded techniques to bring back out and use when working directly in CD’s edit window. TRICKs like sizing images (like DOG FACE’s 3-different sizes above use that KEYWORD along with the reference to the original PIX location
Namaste
Sioxrose
Sounds like an interesting book hope it is finished soon.
I was into gardening lots in the passed my wife did lots up till the time she got very sick and even with the hard work from the doctors and hospitals passed away. I think it is time to start to grow some food again. I have just taken 2 culinary courses and now bake breads and fix some real good dinners. Got to go check on my latest creation, back later
“With each new revelation, it is beginning to look like the torture operation was managed and directed out of the White House”
The boss delegates to himself the tasks that best suit his temperament. God bless the United States of America!
colleen: Its incredible to me that 60% of Republicans still support Bush…
Human beings tend to rationalize the status quo that brought comfort and convenience to their lives, never mind the collateral damage. Tens of millions of status quo supporters in the US will later be joined by hundreds of millions in China and India, Brazil and Russia as comfort and convenience permeate those cultures. They will pay their permanent world war taxes too after indulging in the media opiates just the same.
to them discussing the stuff about sadism - esp voxclamatis -
maybe it is true that our culture has advanced, or degenerated, in the manner you describe, but it seems over-reaching to say so of the whole of humanity - many of us still know where we stand.
Pelosi needs to be impeached or otherwise removed for protecting Bush, for not holding him accountable for anything, and taking impeachment of him “off the table.”