Dalai Lama Holds Key to Peace in Tibet
The latest Tibetan rebellion against Chinese rule has captured world sympathy and horribly embarrassed China’s government just as Beijing has been pulling out all the stops preparing for its summer Olympic extravaganza.
But is there anything the world community can do besides issuing more platitudes?
First, some questions.
Is Tibet historically part of China, as Beijing claims? Yes and no. Tibet was spiritually linked to China from about 1370 in a “priest-ruler” relationship. Tibet’s Lamaist Buddhist theocracy recognized the ultimate temporal power of China’s emperor, while the emperor recognized Lhasa’s spiritual primacy and total autonomy. Lhasa became the Vatican for the Mongol Empire and its successor, China’s Ming Empire.
In 1913, while China was in chaos, Tibet, backed by the British Empire, declared independence. So it remained until October 1950, when the People’s Army invaded Tibet and declared it “reunited” to China. A year earlier, Chinese troops had invaded and crushed the independent Republic of East Turkistan — today called Xinjiang — whose Turkic-Mongol Uighurs, long fought Chinese rule and Han Chinese immigration.
The world laments for the fashionable cause of Tibetans, but utterly ignores their northern neighbours, the Uighurs. After 2001, the Bush administration even branded Muslim Uighur resistance movements as “terrorists.”
Second, the true number of Tibetans. China has obscured census figures. When I met with the Dalai Lama, who inspired my book, War at the Top of the World — which is in part about Tibet — he told me there were over seven million Tibetans. About three million are in Tibet proper, and the rest in the neighbouring Chinese provinces of Sichuan, Gansu and Qinghai, to which protests spread this week.
A primary cause of the Tibetan “intifada” is continuing settlement of Han Chinese. After what I call “ethnic inundation,” ethnic Chinese settlers now outnumber Tibetans. The same process of inundation occurred in Inner Mongolia, whose people are ethnically close to Tibetans.
Ironically, China condemns Israel for colonizing the West Bank with Jewish settlers while China does the same thing in Tibet.
MODERNIZATION
But China also has uplifted Tibet from frightful poverty and superstition, brought education, hospitals, electricity, roads, and ended widespread serfdom. Last year, a remarkable new high altitude rail line linked Lhasa to Beijing.
When I last visited Tibet, people came up and begged me with tears in their eyes for a photo of their beloved exiled Dalai Lama. Beijing furiously brands him a “splittist.” I saw anti-Chinese demonstrations in Lhasa, and regiments of Chinese paramilitary police and soldiers. Resistance has simmered for decades. Now, the pot has boiled over.
In contrast to past heavy-handed repression, China has been fairly restrained so far in suppressing the rebellion. The uprising seems to be abating, but if it gets out of hand, China will use much more force.
Another danger: China’s giant rival, India, would dearly like to drive China from the strategic Tibetan Plateau, which looms over northern India. China has built a score of air and missile bases in Tibet threatening India. Growing unrest could tempt India to back Tibetan resistance. So might the U.S. China would react with fury.
So what can the world do? The EU calls for boycotting the Olympic opening ceremonies. Others demand trade sanctions.
OVERT ACTIONS
Such overt actions won’t work. China will never voluntarily relinquish control of Tibet. No one is going to tell China what to do.
The best solution is the Dalai Lama’s: Beijing restores the old “priest-ruler” relationship. Tibet recognizes China’s political mastery, China accepts Tibet’s real internal autonomy, ceases Han immigration, and allows the Dalai Lama to return.
As globalization plays an ever larger role in China’s economy, it needs to protect its good image abroad. Stomping on Tibet is counterproductive.
Beijing should respond with patience, and accord the Dalai Lama, a fierce pacifist and great soul, the same reverence and respect as did the Mongol and Ming emperors. The world needs to press China to do so, but discreetly, and with tact.
Eric Margolis writes a regular column for The Toronto Sun.
© 2008 The Toronto Sun
Eric Margolis has been an apologist for the Chinese for many years. He is pro-Pakistani Muslim who has been promoting China and bashing India for decades, in the hope that the China-Pakistan relationship will provide the Muslim world with respect (which of course they deserve) and military power (which they don’t need).
Tact and discretion will never work on the China. There have to be boycotts and sanctions. The West needs to somehow directly communicate with the Chinese people the true situation in Tibet. The censorship help provided by the likes of Google and Yahoo is not helping at all.
Perhaps the Dalai Lama can fit this into his schedule. Hobnobbing with the rich and powerful is time consuming. All those cocktail parties, dinners and high society gatherings take their toll on a person’s time and energy.
Regardless of what Eric says here, I still can’t stomach what China’s invasion of Tibet brought…
Tibetans have accused the People’s Republic of China of a campaign of terror after the invasion, which they claim led to the disappearance of up to 1 million Tibetans… In the 1950’s initial invasion aprox 2000 buddhist monks were murdered [slaughtered]…Chinese authorities deny this; but eye wittnesses claimed a bloodbath…
The sickening irony to this wholesale ethnic cleansing the IOC rewarded [sic] China with the right to stage the 2008 Olympics… Maybe in 2012 at the end of the Mayan Calender we will all be rewarded the opportunity to go to hell and back; for the accumulated global karmic debt owed…
The Dalai Lama’s plea has been on the table for decades. Why should China deal with him now? They are cleansing Tibet by bringing in millions of ethnic Chinese. They understand history. The Dalai Lama will pass on and Tibet will be a Disney theme park as it is now. China has no intention of dealing with the Dalai Lama. China is a brutal regime that we are funding through our consumption of crap from China. The world has been pressing China with patience and tact for decades. Doesn’t work. Taiwan is next. Ugh!
” So what can the world do? The EU calls for boycotting the Olympic opening ceremonies. Others demand trade sanctions.
Such overt actions won’t work. China will never voluntarily relinquish control of Tibet. No one is going to tell China what to do.”
I could not disagree more after being aware of the Tibetan dilemma since 1970.
Although the Dalai Lama won the Nobel Peace prize for taking the ethical and moral high road with non-violent resistance, this has had little affect on the Chinese although it has increased global respect for the Tibetan approach to life.
But we should not forget that Gandhi also linked economic boycotts to his struggle against the cruelty and injustice of British imperialism.
Boycotting Chinese goods worldwide and boycotting the hypocritical Olympic farce in progress are two things that China would understand. They are materialists and militarists running a totalitarian state. The Chinese do not understand compassion and ethics. The only way to affect them is in the harsh arena of money and commerce.
The next time you go shopping , including Chinese food products that have been recently tainted, be sure to check the country of origin and do not buy Chinese. And do not watch the Olympics or give your business to any Olympic sponsor.
Why give financial support to an evil empire and contribute to the oppression of the Tibetans.
Keep your Karma clean and boycott everything Chinese !
Oyoooo! As a fellow Canuck I’m not surprised that Margolis tries to take the middle ground on this one. But history wise he’s very wrong: “In 1913, while China was in chaos, Tibet, backed by the British Empire, declared independence.”
Backed by the British Empire? What Margolis does not mention is the invasion of Tibet by the British in 1904 under Francis Younghusband. And, oh yes, that ‘brave’ English soldier proceeded to massacre thousands of Tibetans in the process. Well, we can see now why the British backed Tibetan ‘independence’.
It was to divide China just as they divided the Indian subcontinent into India and Pakistan.
The so-called ‘independence’ was supposedly ratified in 1913 at the Treaty of Simla. The Chinese government, even though very weak at the time, refused to sign that treaty. In other words, even though very weak, they refused to give in to imperialistic bullying.
The real reason behind the hatered of todays’s China is that China is the only 3rd world, ‘non-white’ country in the world to reverse and correct imperialistic history: in 1950 they took back Tibet; in 1997 they took back Hong Kong; several years later they took back Macau. And with the people of Taiwan having just elected a ‘government’ that is leaning toward China, it’s only a matter of time before China is fully united.
I can predict that the venom and hatred against China will increase a hundredfold in the years to come, fueled by a newsmedia that’s the mouthpiece of petty, resentful and, yes, racist, westerners. The British Broadcating Corporation (BBC) comes to mind. They’re still smarting that the Chinese dared to stand up to them in Tibet and Hong Kong. And let’s not forget CNN. I’m sure they wouldn’t want to be left out…
JConrad, YESSS! I agree 100%. No more Wal-Mart and its Chinese-made products. Why buy it? “Made in China” is cheap, inferior junk anyway and always has been.
It’s sad that China invaded the peaceful, nonviolent Shangri-La Tibet decades ago and no one — including the U.S., the U.K., and the U.N. — came to their rescue even though the Tibetans specifically requested help from them.
The Chinese slaughtered thousands of nonviolent Tibetan monks along with defenseless peasants. They also destroyed monasteries and Buddhist artifacts. There must be very bad karma in store for the Chinese for doing all that. Doesn’t the Bible say “You reap what you sow?” What goes around comes around.
Hmmm, did I say the terrible ‘r’ word? ‘Racist’? Yes, I did.
For example, from the esteemed Mr JConrad: “The Chinese do not understand compassion and ethics.”
Ummm, errr, the Chinese I know DO understand compassion and ethics. And many of them do live on the mainland!
Gosh… Tell me it ain’t so, J(oe?)Conrad…
As the late British playwright, Joe Orton, once said, “Scratch a liberal and you find a fascist.” (I’m presuming that our dear Mr JConrad is a liberal seeing that this is a liberal site…)
Boycott everything Chinese?
When I read that I decided to look around the room I’m sitting in now.
Coffee mug I’m drinking from “Made in China”.
Coffee maker which made the morning brew, “Made in China”
Wooden stool I’m sitting on “Made in China”
Portable radio and headphones I’m listening to, “Made in China”.
Computer I’m writing on “Assembled in China”.
Bike helmet waiting by the door for my Sunday bike ride, “Made in China”.
Label on T-shirt I’m wearing “Made in China”
My jeans “Made in China”.
My 43 year old Gibson guitar “Made in the USA!”
So if you see a naked guy on the corner, strumming an old Gibson, you’ll know it’s me, boycotting all things Chinese.
Yes -the West wants to keep China down–but that doesnt mean China is a saint.
One has to be fair.
It has a lot of domestic problems. Its human rights record is pathetic. Executing people for petty crimes and then selling the body parts?
I know of a Chinese brain surgeon (a woman) who is a file clerk here. She wont go back to China because of the way they treat women.
Foot binding isnt completely eradicated–and you have to admit, even by the ancient standards of bride burning and the like, crushing a woman’s foot and getting erotic sensations out of unwrapping it is completely alien. Its perverted like crush videos(and asian cinema has a subculture of films where mice and frogs are ripped apart live).
Frying live fish and then eating them while they are still alive–come on.Talk about a complete lack of regard for life. There was a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco that was sued because they liked to rip the shells off live turtles. They won in court.
Using seal penises as aphrodisiacs, bear gall bladders and tiger eyes as medicine. AND they have all the western forms of cruelty–medical research, factory farming, now they sell dog and cat fur as fake fur.
They put anti freeze in their own food supply.
They have no control over their population–they resort to forcing women to have abortions because they cant figure out how to solve the population problem. One reporter overheard a Chinese man mumble “chinese people are too evil.” he had to speak softly for fear of being arrested.
Then there is Quandong province. Wonderful place. You can find sidewalks covered in spit and mucous. Want a new disease? Step right up and sample Sars or Bird Flu courtesy of its live animal markets where you can buy anything–since the motto there is, if it has four legs, eat it.
Plus their growing middle class contributes to the rise in food prices, and sharks may go extinct thanks to a bizarre custom of wanting a shark fin decoration in soup.
Worst of all, is that because it is so repressive, people who might be inclined to change things there are either locked up or executed.
The west has its own problems and people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones–but China isnt a saint, and its population numbers combined with western style economy and a lack of community oversight can be very dangerous for the entire world.
Just because the West does what it does doesnt mean China is correct for destroying Tibetan culture.
Its gotten to be a running joke with me. Whenever Mr. Margolis has a column up here, I immediately scroll down to see the first comment. Its always some Margolis-hater with some nasty comment that is just personal at the man and has nothing to do with the column.
What, are there people out there who do nothing but scan the web for his articles and post nasty comments under them?
When I see that, it makes me more curious about what the man is saying. Anyone who spurs such hatred on auto-pilot has probably done something right. Or at least often enough to check it out.
That’s a good rule to learn. When there are people who seem intent on making sure someone can’t speak, its usually worth checking out what they say.
Damn, my guitar is made in China, so I don’t even get to keep that.
Ironically, China condemns Israel for colonizing the West Bank with Jewish settlers while China does the same thing in Tibet.
That is exactly right isn’t it ? Why don’t the lot of you go jump on Israel for perpetrating genocide on the Palestinians for the last 50 years ? Israel is straffing Palestinians on a daily basis in the Gaza and slaughtering 100’s of Palestinians every month. Israel has dispossesed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians of lands that were owned by then before 1967, so why is Israel any different ?
Tibet is recognised by the United Nations as part of China just as Taiwan is similarly recognised by the UN. PRC is no push over like the Serbs vis a vis KOSOVO. The USA & EU are just trouble makers; the lot of you are renegades so far as international law is concerned. The unilateral declaration of Independance by KOSOVO is a clear violation of international Law and yet the USA and EU gave their recognition to this criminal enterprise; ALL SO AS TO SPITE RUSSIA.
Boycott China ? Maybe China should pull the plug on the USA and sell US$ down the drain. The USA$ is just paper anyway. Damned US$ is MERE BANANA DALLA. Ooops ! too bad we can’t do that because bloody USA owes China some 1.5 trillion dollars ! You Americans better remember that for the USA to record a “GROWTH OF $1 YOU FIRST NEED TO PAY OFF US$9TRILLION OF DEBTS. On the other hand for China to record a “growth of US$1 we only need to sell 1 roll of toilet paper. You Americans are a very long way from us.
Tibet was part of China for 700 years. Then the Brits do their thing again and foster the separation of tibet from China. That’s not legal. Tibet again becomes part of China and Chinese settle there. Well ,yes,its part of China. Two thirds of Tibetans are in China, so why not Chinese in Tibet? The Palestininas are not part of Israel or free to live there, so how can that compare? From where I sit, and I have never been an apologist for China, they are right. Blame the brits, AGAIN.
yap.chongjee: I’m with you.
COMarc:
Is your computer made in China? Your monitor? Keyboard? Mouse? Are they? If they are it means you’ll have to stop posting. Dang! Mine are too! Why, those clever ‘boycotters’! They’re trying to stop certain people from posting…!!!
I hope their computers weren’t made in China…!!! Yah think? (*_^)
Margolis has provided a model historic account of a current event that we the PEOPLE may transform into effective public policy, on the national and global level, over the protest of information-suppressing elites. This assumes of course that Margolis’ account is accurate but this is easily determined. With such a useful, accurate historical account, what conclusion will we the PEOPLE determine for our universal law?
Are the dominant Han Chinese treating the Tibetan people fairly? The Han have a history of regional domination and exploitation, though probably nowehere near as extreme as historic and modern European, British and Anglo-American imperialism. The Han may benefit Tibetans by bringing socialism to replace serfdom. Under strong controls, capitalism may also benefit them. But these changes should accord with the free will of the Tibetan people who decide how much tradition to keep. Modernization with new energy/materials/methods should be introduced very slowly with free will and full awareness of the tradeoffs by the Tibetan people. The Han Chinese immigration should be questioned. The Dalai Lama’s international popularity should be scrutinized. Much of his global support seems to be self-serving to the supporters, contributing to geo-political chaos, not peace.
Routine public discussions based on such model historic accounts and universalist goals should be a fixture in the global community. The result is that all people may rise above the rule by elites, and achieve full self-determination. The people should demand accurate historic analysis in the media.
rebelnow,- your thoughts echoed my own, except my guitar is canadian.
————————–
it’s pathetic that people in china (educated people capable of research) are not allowed access to information about the riots in tibet, or tibetan resistance, or speeches by the dalai lama or even international commentary about the geopolitical ramifications of the chinese occupation of tibet.
yes americans are inundated w/ propoganda constantly (especially the wmd’s and myriad of reasons created for iraq war), but in 2002 we still could listen to democracynow or read the articles on these pages or read international perspectives from the guardian or agence france, al jazeera or voice of russia.
people in china are not granted this freedom. they’re literally oblivious of other perspectives about tibet. if china is so comfortable defending it’s cultural right to tibet, why won’t it allow dissident opinions air time in china? is it possible the chinese people are wise enough to believe the voices of the dissidents that are suppressed by the PRC ?
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2008/gb20080317_321446.htm
“Since riots broke out in Tibet last week, authorities have imposed martial law and tried to control the flow of information into and out of the region. The government has banned journalists and tourists from entering Tibet. And officials have imposed strict controls over the Internet in an effort to spin what happened in Tibet and neighboring provinces to conform with Beijing’s version of events.”
“China’s most popular search engines and portals are sticking to the official line, too. The only mention of Tibet on Baidu.com (BIDU), China’s top search engine, is in a Xinhua story alleging the Dalai Lama is plotting to destroy social stability in Tibet, an effort that Xinhua says is doomed to fail.”
With the censoring of Chinese blog and BBC postings that do not reflect the government’s position, most of the Chinese postings left standing tend to present an overwhelming resentful attitude towards Tibetans. “Tibetan mobs are a group of ungrateful people. They enjoy many unique advantages, such as more than one child, much lower requirements for university admission, protection policies on the region, and paramount investments,” writes a blogger in English on a site called “Chinese Lives.”
“However, there are some exceptions. After a number of friends asked entrepreneur Zhou Shuguang, who lives in Hunan province in south-central China, about what was going on in Tibet, he collected pictures and news articles about the riot from not just the official Chinese media but also Chinese translation of foreign media articles and posted them on his Web site, zuola.com. Censors have tried to shut down his Web site numerous times, but Zhou set up his Web site on Internet servers in the U.S. and also posted it on Google Docs to get around the blocks. “The more you try to censor something, the more people will want to understand it, so I posted it on my Web site,” he says. “It was easy.” ”
the structure of the UN is inadequate. america and britain can occupy countries in the world using their veto power in the security council as an insurance policy that prevents a response from russia or china; and china can impose cultural genocide on a culturally unique people, knowing chinese and russian (also concerned about ethnic breakaways in russia) veto’s in the security council would sanction their behavior. the world needs a real world government w/ legitimacy that upholds it’s own human rights ideals.
….peace…
also tibet was never ‘part’ of china… no more than hopi lands are part of USA.
tibet is culturally unique, it wasn’t a ‘part’ of china. the tibetan people had arrangements w/ other regional powers including china and the mongols that allowed their political autonomy. the british validation/invalidation of this status is moot.
example language….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet
“The Tibetic languages are spoken throughout the Tibetan plateau, Bhutan, and parts of Nepal and northern India. Spoken Tibetan includes numerous regional dialects which, in many cases, are not mutually intelligible. Moreover, the boundaries between Tibetan and certain other Himalayan languages are sometimes unclear. In general, the dialects of central Tibet (Ü-Tsang, including Lhasa), Kham, Amdo, and some smaller nearby areas are considered Tibetan dialects. The languages of some groups outside modern Tibet, such as Dzongkha (Bhutanese), Sikkimese, Sherpa, and Ladakhi, are more distant varieties descended from archaic Tibetan, and which bear varying degrees of similarity to modern Tibetan. Using this broader grouping of Tibetan dialects and forms, the Tibetan language “family” is spoken by approximately 6 million people across the Tibetan Plateau. Tibetan is also spoken by approximately 150,000 exiles who have fled from modern-day Tibet to India and other countries.
The Tibetan language has its own script, which is part of the Brahmic family of scripts.[14]”
this situation is the same in tibet as it exists in palestine, kurdistan, indigenous zones in the andes, in the amazon, in central america and elsewhere (generally very remote mountainous inaccessible areas).
it is never proper, to invade a militarily weaker culture, murder their leaders and priests, suppress the resistance (murder/torture), colonize (steal) the land w/ culturally different peoples, and then declare it something else, part of the motherland (or fatherland depends on the imperial culture).
guam, puerto rico, hawaii, every indigenous tribe in north america dead in our wake……
it’s cultural genocide, it’s genocide…. it’s inexcusable
indigenous peoples the world over deserve sovereignty and the right to maintain their vanishing cultural traditions.
…peace…
Boycoctt everything Chinese! And what? Buy American? That is a moral step straight down into ankle deep civilian blood just in terms of measurable bodycount and suffering caused by The Land of the Free.
In twenty years Americans will stand in line to pay top dollar for PRC goods instead of that ‘cheap’ Indian…and while they wait in line they will malign Africa.
Good heavens! Iowablackbird suggests the ideal that “indigenous peoples the world over deserve sovereignty and the right to maintain their vanishing cultural traditions.” And China has 56 indigenous groups! Is she suggesting that these 56 groups be given their own little countries? My,oh,my!
Tell you what; In the end WE are ALL indigenous peoples! So let’s all go back to the beginning. But let’s not start with China.Let’s start with Europe and dissolve it into it’s indigenous peoples. Then Africa. And South America. But that’s not going to happen, is it?
But it should happen to China? My, dear lady, that is exactly what this is all about! And that’s why the Chinese will fight it. And, yes, that includes the educated Chinese who can and who do proper research.
Tell you what; maybe Europe or EVEN the U.S would like to set the example by being the first…?
I’m not going to hold my breath…but I will say:
Peace to you, too, sister…
Eric Margolis says that the Chinese lifted Tibet out of “frightful poverty and superstition,” which makes me wonder if he has any understanding at all of the situation there. Today Tibetans are among the very most poverty-stricken, if not the most poverty-stricken on the planet; while the Chinese plunder the natural resources and send all that wealth to China, the Tibetans themselves see none of it. And of what superstition does he speak? He sounds more like the Chinese than he does a Western observer in this statement–does he have no idea of the basis of the Dalai Lama as a “great soul,” which is to say of the tradition he represents? And why make such absolutist statements as “China will never voluntarily relinquish control of Tibet”? Likely the possibility is quite slim; but why close the door to it with such statement-making, as though to say don’t even bother to pray for such a thing? Does Mr. Margolis really live in such a faithless world? Otherwise, I think his view is a good one, that bringing the old ruler-priest relationship back may be the most viable solution to bringing autonomy back to the Tibetans in the practice of their “religion” (Buddhism), at the same time satisfying the Chinese in their desire to have political control. It is indicative of the path of Buddhism as “the middle way,” a practice which makes the Dalai Lama such a great being and world leader.
Sorry folks but the Dalai Lama is no great person. He is a metaphysical sentimental fellow with little understanding of true Buddhism. He is a spiritual person, not a materialist like Buddha. He is a political being and one who, as a separatist, can’t expect to be recognized by the country that doesn’t recognize separation. Those who think the Dalai Lama is great are easily mesmerized by metaphysical drivel, at which he excels. He is well suited for Americans, moe or less like Khalil Gibran.
oh jeez: Having a distinctive culture doesn’t give you the right to separate, that depends on the collective will as expressed in a constitution. I am all for splitting up countries, starting with the US , but, unless you want war, it has to be with the consent of the rest of the country. Tibet is part of China. Only the Chinese get to decide what to do. As usual, a lot of people want to interfere in the affairs of other nations while their own is so far from perfection. How about minding one’s own business, or should we go to war with China too? Sanctions, maybe, as in sanctimonious? Give it a rest, Oh policeman of the world!
As for protecting culture, talk to the Amish, the Mormons and Afro-Americans. Do they look like they are going to lose their culture unless they separate? Will American jews stop being jews because they don’t have a separate state? humbug!
JConrad, I agree with you, but I wonder if it’s even possible to boycott “all things Chinese”. Sara Bongiorni recently wrote a book, “A year without ‘Made in China’; One family’s adventure in the global economy.” It’s a tough thing to do; doesn’t mean we can’t try though.
iowablackbird, I agree with your comments, both today’s and yesterday’s, well said. (BTW is your Canadian guitar a Seagull? I have one of those also, awesome guitar for the price).
Margolis’ article is right on, for the most part, but I have to take issue, as did padma, with the line “But China has also uplifted Tibet from frightful poverty and superstition, brought education, hospitals, electricity, roads…..”. that’s equivalent to saying that the US has brought Democracy to Iraq. Maybe the Tibetans didn’t want all that shit and if they did they didn’t need the Chinese to force it down their throats with a gun barrel held to their heads.
Nearly every historical account I’ve read refers to the Chinese “invasion” or “incursion” into Tibet, yet Chinese apologists say that Tibet has always been a part of China. So the Chinese “invaded” themselves? Ridiculous. China wanted Tibet for it’s strategic position in regards to it’s enemy, India. They could care less about the Tibetans.
rebelnow… yes it is a great guitar, i’m happy
mopy March 23rd, 2008 5:07 pm
it’s brother not sister but that’s cool, i hesitate to ask you your opinion of others in the world, like the palestinians fighting for control of their land. maybe they should just accept it, that they will never be reunited w/ their land.
actually the separation of different ethnic groups is in full swing in europe. kosovo just became a full fledged member of the UN. the scots and welsh are both asserting their rights to sovereignty, and the basque separatist have made their case for self rule for generations. the kurds are also resisting the turks (a member of NATO and potential member of the EU).
so your point is well taken and yes brother, i do support these separatists movements, as i support indigenous rights in the US and north america.
the canadians set an example for a possible solution to tibet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut
{”Nunavut’s head of state is a Commissioner appointed by the federal Minister of Indian Affairs and Northern Development. As in the other territories, the commissioner’s role is symbolic and is analogous to that of a Lieutenant Governor. While the Commissioner is not formally a representative of the Queen of Canada, a role roughly analogous to representing The Crown has accrued to the position.
The members of the unicameral Legislative Assembly of Nunavut are elected individually; there are no parties and the legislature is consensus-based.[11] The head of government, the premier of Nunavut, is elected by, and from the members of the legislative assembly.
The territory’s first legislature was dissolved on January 16, 2004, with an election shortly thereafter. See Nunavut general election, 2004. As of 2007, Nunavut is in its second government.
Faced by criticism of his policies, Premier Paul Okalik set up an advisory council of eleven elders, whose function it is to help incorporate “Inuit Qaujimajatuqangit” (Inuit culture and traditional knowledge, often referred to in English as “IQ”) into the territory’s political and governmental decisions.”}
also the EZLN are continuing to fight for indigenous rights in mexico.
http://zeztainternazional.ezln.org.mx/
the critiques of the dalai lama remind me of the bigoted critiques of other recipients of the nobel peace prize, like rigoberta menchu in guatemala - who despite her fight for indigenous peoples rights was ridiculed as being unauthentic.
a great book that discusses this myopic colonial view of resistance…orientalism by edward said…..
p.s. why are so many afraid of a real world government that gives people cultural rights? our nation state system is arbitrary and the whole system need to be scrapped.
…peace…
China’s alleged improvements in Tibet benefit the Han Chinese residents, and very rarely the Tibetan people who still live in squalor and poverty. The Chinese came to exploit the mineral and other natural resources and to subjugate the Tibetans. This is not upliftment, it is colonial tyranny. China’s human rights record is appalling, and nowhere more than in Tibet. We punish the Cuban people while trading with and borrowing from the Chinese, whose record is immeasurably worse.
Like COMarc, I too do not understand all this anti-Margolis venom. My experience of Eric Margolis has been that he was one of the few crystal clear voices solidly against the invasion of Iraq from the beginning. He was right in print about WMD (or absence thereof) at a time when few others were. (Scott Ritter is one of those others who comes to mind.) He has been consistently critical of the fiasco that is the Bush administration, and managed to continue to be while writing in the Toronto Sun, which except for his lone voice, is a right-wing, tabloid-style rag with a working-class readership unlikely to come across progressive ideas like his anywhere else.
On the subject of Tibet, he now advocates, “The best solution is the Dalai Lama’s.” These hardly sound like the words of an “apologist for China.”
I support the Tibetans in their struggles for their rights inside China, however I just can’t support any call for setting up a separate country that would certainly ally with Britain and the US against China.
Lizard, your comments regarding the Dalai Lama and the history of Tibet are as offensive as they are ill-informed. To say that the Dalai Lama has “little understanding of true Buddhism” is absurd. I suggest that it is Lizard who has absolutely no understanding of Buddhism whatsoever and should engage in some serious study before spouting off ignorantly in future.
No doubt the Dalai Lama has won the PR war with the West by his charm, wit and wisdom, but China is not giving up Tibet in your lifetime, because of national security and national pride (”territorial integrity”).
China is as determined to holding onto Tibet as Bush and Cheney are claiming that the invasion of Iraq was the right thing to do. As long as the communist party is in power, concessions from China on Tibet will be few and minor.
When the Chinese regime is threatened, it uses force to get its way, along the line of one of Mao’s sayings, “power comes from the barrel of a gun”.
China learned from the Tiananmen incident that any negative reaction from the West is short term and symbolic. The world is too small and China too big for the US and Europe to disengage.
How about settling the Tibet situation with a drinking contest: beer for the Buddhist and blood for the capitalist.
Lizard, your commentary is offensive in the extreme… you obviously have never met the Dalai Lama nor understood his philosophy…my advice read one of the Dalai Lama’s many books…
This is what this supposed man of peace has to say about US aggression around the world (from Michael Parenti’s article):
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7355
“What of the four years of carnage and mass destruction in Iraq, a war condemned by most of the world—even by a conservative pope–as a blatant violation of international law and a crime against humanity? The Dalai Lama was undecided: “The Iraq war—it’s too early to say, right or wrong.”53 Earlier he had voiced support for the U.S. military intervention against Yugoslavia and, later on, the U.S. military intervention into Afghanistan.54″
And this so-called “champion of human rights”, unlike other Nobel Peace Prize winners, has never critisize the world’s greatest war criminal - George Bush. It seems that the Dalai Lama is against violence except when it comes out of the barrel of an American gun. Face it, the Dalai Lama has throughout his life been a willing pawn for US imperialism. That’s why he is such a darling of America’s ruling elite.
As I recall during sometime before the 8th century China was actually part of Tibet!
The Dalai Lama being unable to take a position on the Iraq War tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW; he’s definitely NOT a respectable world figure. Sure, respectable in terms of his human rights needing to be respected, but not respectable in terms of … anything political, or simply world issues.
He recently enough also stated what his view of Bush is, and this was also telling enough. He said that while he disagrees with [some] of Bush’s or the USA’s foreign policies, he thinks Bush is not evil, hence not wicked, that he’s a nice, good man; something only IDIOTS could conceive of Bush. Former Pope JP II much more accurately described Bush as being of ‘blood cult’ or being a ‘blood cultist’, which Bush’s Texas governership was already strong proof of before appointment to the presidency in 2000. The Pope had also given some consideration to the possibility of AntiChrist, but while I understand reason behind such a view, I would not agree that he is this; and the Pope backed off from it too. It just crossed his mind; while ‘blood cult’ is something I believe he stuck with for view … of Bush. Actually, it was ‘blood cult Christian’, but I drop the ‘Christian’ given it’s something Bush is nearly as far from being as Satan is.
Anyway, the following is an interesting portrayal, reality-based too, of the Dalai Lama.
“The Role of the CIA: Behind the Dalai Lama’s Holy Cloak
by Michael Backman
Global Research, March 23, 2008
www.theage.com - 2007-05-23″
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8426
Sorry for the typos, etc., in the above two posts, but correction with respect to the last one:
“The Dalai Lama being unable to take a position on the Iraq War tells us ALL WE NEED TO KNOW; while that, and having supported the wars on Yugoslavia and Afghanistan tells us TRIPLY ALL WE NEED TO KNOW”, about him.
That’s based on the post, “martingale March 24th, 2008 6:02 am”, above.
Also, someone further above criticised criticism and suspicions of the Dalai Lama, saying to read some of his purportedly great books or in order to learn about the real man; “as if!”. That is a WORTHLESS way to consider him when HARD FACTS, many too, tell us about a very different person than what his books mislead readers or naive readers to believe. Liars can and do communicate proficiently and well, saying nice things, etc.; as also do [charlatans]!
Hey, here’s something easy for analogy: Consider all of the nice things or changes Bush said his administration was going to bring to Iraqis, liberation, etc., f.e. And there are MANY other examples. We’re flooded with them, as well as with naive views of gullible people.
I prefer to be [critical]; am a very easy-going guy, very fair, etc., but still think critically. It’s essential to do; unless we wish to be negligent about our health, and so on. I’m definitely not interested in that way of living.
The article by Backman and linked in my above post says, in reality-based terms, that the Dalai Lama has achieved NOTHING good for Tibetans; and like it or not, Backman [is] right about this. I believe he’s also right about it being seriously, enough, possible that China may’ve been less harsh towards Tibetans [if] this Lama character had ’stayed silent’, i.e., SHUT UP.
After all, and again, China is most surely aware of his relations with the U.S. govt and its CIA.
Several Nobel “Peace” Prize winners astoundingly supported the war on Yugoslavia in 1999; I “couldn’t believe it”, sort of. They finalised convincing me that the NPP is nothing but show stuff, nothing meaningful at all. Besides, true peace-and-justice activists have absolutely no need for these flaky “awards”, which clearly enough are primarily used to DECEIEVE humanity; treating us like we are all just a bunch of suckers to be fed rotten bait even fish would scram from.
It’s another charlatan scam, which evidently is what monsieur Lama is; charlatan, scammer.
NO GOOD at all for Tibetans, and “no wonder” many of them want to be rid of his presence in or from their affairs.
MARTINGALE: Thank you for posting the link. I just read the entire article and it’s quite illuminating. As they say, you learn something (new) every day!
Mopy:
I hope you had a lovely Easter.
However, your sarcasm and name calling (racist, fascist) is not a good way to carry on an intelligent conversation. Chinese political propaganda is usually a very absurd theatre of insults without substance.
The Tibetan question could be handled very easily. Just give all Tibetans the opportunity to vote on the question of the Chinese occupation. And then allow all people within China to vote on their freedom or the right to unionize.
The democracy question was raised at Tiananmen square yet students and workers were met with AK-47s and tanks and were brutally crushed by the police state.
China cannot even be called a legitimate or functioning “communist” state as the inequality of wealth in China is growing faster than it is in America.
Young women from the countryside are denied education and health care for their children and are forced to work in slave-labor sweatshops in the big industrial cities in order to provide for thier family at home. A fancy North Face down jacket would most likely be made that way.
And, Google Tiananmen Square in America and you will get 1,150,000 hits. But the last time I checked, Tiananmen Square information was blocked or censored in the Chinese version of the internet.
Any apologist for China is essentially supporting one of the least democratic and most repressive totalitarian governments on earth. Tibet is only one of many Chinese crimes against humanity as China is now exporting imperialism and genocide beyond their political borders in Sudan.
As a point of discussion, the Backman article is highly questionable. The connections that he mentions have never been proven. Back in the 60’s, American theoretical Marxists presented the same arguments, without documentation, while attempting to rationalize the Chinese occupation of Tibet that has killed over a million Tibetans while ravaging their culture and environment.
The Dalai Lama worked very hard to end the stubborn resistance of Tibetan freedom fighters during the 60’s and early 70’s and has always proposed non-violent solutions which is why he was granted the Nobel Peace Prize.
The sad truth is that Chinese injustice and violence unleashed on the Tibetans has been backed by corporate America in an effort to exploit cheap Chinese labor while putting Americans out of work.
But as a relatively free citizen in America you are free enough to let your conscience be your guide and ignore Washington’s corporate foreign policy.
Keep your Karma clean ! Do not support Chinese crimes by purchasing their products and boycott all aspects of the Olympics. !
Om Mani Padme Hum (If not familiar, Google that and enjoy and compassion will be set in motion)
JConrad:
Thank you so much for your kind Easter blessings! Yes, I had (am still having) a wonderful Easter. At mass I witnessed for the first time a giant cross being brought in and the crosspiece being nailed into it. It was a sobering sight and I thought of the man who was nailed on to it so long ago. He was full of compassion and love for the truth. For sure he NEVER would have said as you said, quote,
“The Chinese do not understand compassion and ethics.”
And if he did and were challenged on it he would NEVER turn around and accuse his challenger of using name-calling yada, yada, yada… He would do the proper thing. But that requires some humility…
I hope you had a nice Easter, too…(*_^)
I had a nice Easter too and would like to repeat over and over…
Everybody in the World has the right to condemn human rights violations wherever they occur.
But to be more effective in our criticism we should realize that everything is connected.
The USA tries to impose its hypocritical and failing system on the world.
The Dalai Lama and China well work out their problems better without more USA imposition.
To be more effective in the fight for human rights, we need remember the common sense of Jesus and get the log out of our own eyes before we complain about the mote in China’s.
Iowablackbird:
You’re a dude, not a dudette? My humble apologises…
I’m so glad o hear that you support indigenous rights, however! So do I. And as far as the the rights of 56 ethnics groups in China are concerned I support them under the umbrella of CHINA.
You point out that the rights of indigenous peoples in Europe are already being recognised. Well, isn’t that precious? And isn’t it interesting that they form an entity called EU to give them political, economic and military clout? But China shouldn’t…yah…?
So let’s have 56 little countries in China…? Which is your dream? As it is for the DaLie Lama…?
As for Kosovo, interesting how the U.S. and the EU were the first to recognise it as independent. Hmmmm…
Kosovo is now a part of the U.N.? I didn’t know that! Thanks for enlightening me. What I do know is that the entire body of the U.N. recognises Tibet as a part of China…
Peace and TRUTH…!
Jim Glover:
Amen!
A host of problems with Margolis’ article:
1. The Tibetan riots ‘horribly emabarssed China’? So how about the Tibetans? Aren’t they ‘horribly embarassed’ that the Tibetan rioters started a violent race riot, and were CUTTING THE EARS OFF Hui (muslim) children?
2. XinJiang province has been part of China a lot longer than Tibet even. It was first conquered by the Han Dynasty chinese back ~100BC!!
3. Comparison with the West Bank is completely ridiculous. Tibetans (or Mongolians) are free to migrate to the rest of China and many of them do so. There are tons of tibetans in Chengdu for example. Do you consider that ‘cultural genocide’ of the chinese in Chengdu now? They get preferred admissions in the top universities. Whereas Palestinians have no right of return even to the places where they were born inside Israel. The West Bank settlers are segregated from the Palestinians. Chinese settlers live side by side with their tibetan neighbors.
4. ‘chinese outnumbering tibetans’ is a complete lie. Within Tibet province, Tibetans are >90% of the population. The so-called ‘Outter Tibet’ has always been mixed, and has been for thousands of years. Most of this ‘Outter Tibet’ was never under the rule of the Dalai Lama. He is claiming huge swarths of land no Dalai Lama (even the past ones) has ever controlled.
5. India: India actually occupies a big chunk of southern Tibet south of the McMahon line that they took from China in the ‘62 war. How come the Dalai Lama and his sycophants never calls on India to ‘free’ this part of Tibet?
JConrad March 24th, 2008 11:13 am wrote:
“Chinese occupation of Tibet that has killed over a million Tibetans ”
Please stop spreading stale CIA lies. That figure of 1.2 million Tibetan dead was made up out of whole cloth by the CIA during the 1960’s to gain world sympathy and support for the defeated Tibetan oligarchy, as was admitted recently along with numerous other lies about Tibet by former CIA operatives and state department officials. As Parenti points out in the above linked article, the figure also defies simple logic:
“Both the Dalai Lama and his advisor and youngest brother, Tendzin Choegyal, claimed that “more than 1.2 million Tibetans are dead as a result of the Chinese occupation.”36 The official 1953 census–six years before the Chinese crackdown–recorded the entire population residing in Tibet at 1,274,000.37 Other census counts put the population within Tibet at about two million. If the Chinese killed 1.2 million in the early 1960s then almost all of Tibet, would have been depopulated, transformed into a killing field dotted with death camps and mass graves–of which we have no evidence. The thinly distributed Chinese force in Tibet could not have rounded up, hunted down, and exterminated that many people even if it had spent all its time doing nothing else.”
martingale:
Facts and history agree with you. Patrick French also agrees with you. Who is Patrick French? He was a former director of Free Tibet campaign in London. He wrote a book on Tibet and in his research he said he could find nothing to corroborate that 1.2 million number which these groups (and the DaLie Lama?) were claiming… His article is in the recent NYT…
icemilkcoffee:
hey, dude, your research and history knowledge are impeccable! Congratulations…!
Your point that millions of Tibetans travel and live in other parts of China is bang-on! How come the Chinese don’t accuse them of ‘cultural genocide’ by diluting the purity of the Han race? Maybe it’s because the Chinese have more compassion than those who run the ‘Free Tibet’ campaigns…?
Please educate yourselves and not give in to western propaganda about Tibet:
http://www.workers.org/ww/tibet1204.html
The fact that westerners speak with such outraged self-righteousness about Tibet without knowing the most basic and elementary facts about the subject speaks volumes about how powerful an engine of indoctrination the Western media has become.
So the CIA lies (duh, it’s half their job description) but Chinese propaganda must be be Truth! (uh… that’s sarcasm, if anybody missed.)
What is with the Chinese apologists here? “Oh, its so hard to pay an extra few dollars for a t-shirt, so China must be OK. I’ll just stick my head in this here hole…”
China is not a democracy, not even close, and its economy has only the thinnest veneer of capitalism. Just enough to allow them to purchase US property, businesses, & US gov’t bonds. China won’t have to invade us, they can just cash in their bonds and bankrupt us.
And by the way, just because China didn’t kill 1.2 million Tibetans all at once, but spread it out over years, doesn’t automatically mean it couldn’t have happened. Tobacco related illness kills 1.2 million Americans every 2 1/2 years, but, omygosh, people keep being born… imagine that!
China tortured Tibetans, not for “terrorism,” but for practicing free speech, and not with waterboarding, but with cattle prods in mouths and vaginas!
Or maybe that was “CIA propaganda” as well. Whatever you need to tell yourself to sleep at night….
Peace
Dalai Lama, the Pope, kings, queens, fascist dictators,- all the same human waste products designed to be worshiped by the lapdogs of the world.
JConrad is absolutely right.
As for Margolis haters (count me in) you need to read his articles from the past (history didnt begin with fuckin 9/11). Margolis is an old Reagan loving (brown-noser) cold warrior who had great access to other fellow warmongers in the centers of power. Like Fisk mentioned in another article on CD … every tyrannical asshole eventually has a statue erected in his name !
Tibet was never part of China. Ofcourse if you are an Imperialist then justifications of China’s annexation/occupation of Tibet is easily accomplished. The Tibetans are ethnically different from the Chinese as well. Margolis does have a point about Uighir Nationalism or rather the lack of it. China is attempting what the US and britain did these last 200 years, thats all. It doesnt make it right even though theyve been hugely successful in their neo-imperial conquests.
As for the poster who said since Tibetans are all over China why cant the han Chinese be in Tibet !! What a bunch of crock. If Tibet was indepandant the Tibetans from all over China would flock to Tibet in a heartbeat !
No amount of trashing the Dalai lama by these China loving shmucks is gonna change the genuine claim for Tibetan independance. Also the Han Chinese do not bring socialism to Tibet ! Where do these idiots get their information ! The Chinese are State Capitalists .. the Chinese Communist Party is a huge sham designed to keep party loyalists and the elites in power.
As “martingale” rightly noted, please do educate yourselves.
A google search for “Parenti” and “Tibet” reveals some Buddhism and Tibetan history. These include feudalism, oppression (of peasants), torture, lack of education and health care (for peasants of course), etc.
Chinese claims of western news distortion proven correct as two German news organisations apologises for mistakes. Well, CNN, BBC etc.? Whatcha gonna do?
And I rather suspect that the German apologies will never make it on CNN, BBC etc…
How do you repair the damage caused by your irresponsible reporting? Do you care? Probably not. Yet you want the Chinese to respect you.
I’ve always found it amusing that people in the U.S. have often said they do not trust the media. Yet when it comes to China they seem to believe everything that same media says. I guess that’s why they (american public) ended up with Bush…
German media apologize for errors in covering Tibet riots
www.chinaview.cn 2008-03-25 03:24:04
BERLIN, March 24 (Xinhua) — Two German news organizations have apologized after being accused of distorting facts in covering the riots in Lhasa, capital city of China’s Tibet Autonomous Region.
German news television N-TV on Monday admitted that a picture and a video sequence it used on March 20 in a report about the riots in Tibet had actually been taken in Nepal, a neighboring country of China.
It said the images had already been replaced after editors noticed the mistakes.
“We are terribly sorry,” said a N-TV spokesman in Colgone.
On Sunday, another German television, RTL, also admitted on its website that it “used a picture in a wrong context.”
In fact, the picture showed security forces in Nepal, the RTL Aktuell, a main news program of the RTL TV, said in an online statement.
“The image was taken on March 17 in the capital city of Kathmandu, where Nepalese security forces were confronting demonstrators with batons,” it said.
“We have accidentally created the impression that it is a scene of the unrest in Tibet with Chinese security forces involved. We regret this error,” the statement added.
My previous generalization stated:
“The Chinese do not understand compassion and ethics.”
This is an objective opinion concerning the documented policies of the Chinese government.
If someone misunderstood and thought I was stating that every Chinese person on earth lacked compassion and ethics, that is a mistaken reading of my meaning.
On the other hand, I have been to Hong Kong and have friends who have visited China over the last two decades, and none of us has ever found a citizen of China who expressed any meanigful empathy for the suffering of the Tibetan people or had any interest in the liberation of Tibet.
Perhaps some individuals within China do understand and care what thier government has done to the Tibetans, but if so, they are not free to speak.
Now, my subjective opinion is that the continuation of traditional Tibetan culture within their original homeland is more important than either of the contemporary “civilizations” of America or China.
BOYCOTT THE BEIJING OLYMPICS !
FREE TIBET AND THE CITIZENS OF CHINA !
I am astounded at the number of apparent Chinese propagandists or, who knows, just kids with computers, spewing disinformation about the unrest in Tibet. I’m aware that there are two sides to every coin, that the US and others most likely have some involvement, that the western media is effective, etc. However, for Vajrayana Buddhists around the world, the Tibetan cultural area is extremely precious and we are very concerned with the continuing oppression and violence directed at the Tibetans. I won’t repeat all the accusations here about censorship and dictatorship - it’s part of the Chinese system at present and lamentable. I do think it important that compassionate global citizens should and could help the situation by boycotting the Olympic games, turning off the tv, not buying products of the sponsors of the games, etc. They should also attempt to limit their consumption of Chinese goods - not just because of the current difficult situation, but also because of the unsustainability of such widespread shipment of goods snd imbalance in the global economic system. Yes, the West and the current dominant but declining powers have much to answer for and it is wonderful that the Asians are now in the ascendant in many ways, but for the sake of us Buddhist practioners (and the peoples of these regions) I pray for a cessation of the violence and self-determination - at home, in China and elsewhere. Peace.
mopy,
you gleaned over a few points. there may be 56 ethnic groups in china according to the PRC but the tibetan people are not a chinese ethnic subgroup. the tibetan language is unique (reference above noting the tibetan language group). these people are not chinese i don’t understand your persistence in describing them as such. this thinking is the same thinking that lumps all native american tribes into a homogonous group of otherness called indians, this otherness denies these tribes the unique qualities that specifically define their culture and collectively human culture. the same is true of jews (many people being unable to distinguish b/w sephardic jews and the ashkanazi jews). it’s usually the imperial colonizing power that determines what words or language will be used to write history (refer to chomsky and again i highly recomend E Said’s - orientalism).
i don’t defend american or british imperialism, i oppose all forms of oppresion (ask the tibetan people whether they are a chinese ethnic group, or whether they are tibetans. actually tibetan physical characteristics are unique b/c of the 1000’s of years of acclimatization to high altitude (their children grow quickly and their hemogloban is naturally adjusted for high altitude). - i’m not a physician, just read the article on tibetans in wiki - i know wikipedia is a biased non-chinese source, sorry.
concerning european expression of ethnicity and the european union. the EU is voluntary organization, nations join EU after they request membership and are accepted by the other nations, the tibetans did not ask to be part of greater china, they were brutally forced to accept chinese rule after their culture was decimated. if the tibetans want to participate w/ china after they acquire self rule, well that would be their choice. that choice doesn’t exist, hence we see riots.
jconrad’s idea of a referendum in tibet is the solution to the problem, would the chinese allow an honest expression of tibetan independence via an election ? right… like russia has released it’s influence over former soviets still with in their influence.
also i like the idea of an umbrella, let’s extend the chinese ‘protection’ racket analogy to europe…..
maybe the EU should murder guards, invade the offices of the vatican, occupy vatican city for 50 years, suppressing cardinals, bishops and clerics, as EU beurocrats take over the offices at gun point, then steal the art, torture the priests, expropriate all catholic land, and force the pope to live in corsica? meanwhile impose a media blackout when the priests riot. how would christans who celebrated easter yesterday feal about that?
i’m not a christian, i am an advocate for world government. but the government has to be willingly accepted by the people, and the people should have legitimate input into their future. does this happen in america, europe elsewhere? no it’s an ideal, ideals are common dreams we strive towards, not objects for ridicule. religions will all die in the face of time via science - it takes time and education, in the mean time - let them live out their bizarre patriarchal religions until one day they go the way of the shakers….
tibet is part of chinas umbrella as poland, the ukraine, bulgaria were under the umbrella of the USSR (involuntarily), obviously there were many guns, aircraft and heavy artillery under that big umbrella as well.
oh your right about kosovo (assumption on my part) their entry into the UN is being held up by one of the big involuntary umbrella service providers of the world (it’s called protection, a racket, a scam). the russians are afraid independence in kosovo could cause another oppressed people in russia to take up arms (the chechnyans). funny how that works when people start talking about self rule and independence, the autocratic powers of the world continue to insist they have the right to extend the umbrella even to those who are satisfied w/ their own rain slickers. again this issue w/ kosovo bolsters my point i made earlier, imperial powers are very reluctant to relinquish control and russia and china feed off of each others violations of human rights to obstruct progress on human rights globally. is it ok that china violates human rights? what’s so progressive about ignoring human rights violations????
http://ins.onlinedemocracy.ca/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=11239
“Russia — which is protective of Serbs, who are a minority in Kosovo — is conscious of the political implications that Kosovo’s unilateral declaration of independence may have for the separatist movement within its own borders, in Chechnya. The Russians have threatened to use their veto to prevent the U.N. from giving its political blessings to the new nation state.”
i’m not excusing US or israeli behavior, AI and human rights watch issue reports of human rights violations in all countries, the violence in tibet, the sudan, russia, the US etc….
also you ignored the cultural genocide point above. is that merely the price of progress in your mind? (as americans we can visit the hyat in lhasa, take in a show, appreciate a little art), meanwhile tibetans live in poverty and are denied the right to practice their religion or determine their future voluntarily. you seemed to gloss over the impact of cultural genocide, since you’re such an advocate of human rights (as you claimed) go visit an american indian website/blog and just pose the question — hey was the decimation of your culture a big deal for you??? get back with me on that one…
and why are the china apologists ignoring the fact chinese citizens in the PRC are not participating in this conversation, neither here nor at the NYT’s site nor on the bbc’s blogs; b/c the chinese government is afraid of allowing it’s citizens access to information about tibet or Tiananmen square. people can cry about CNN, that’s a red herring - all of us scribbling on this page can monitor independent, national and private news sources, what’s so progressive about censorship?????
about the parenti article…
i was aware of the cia aiding tibetan resistance (obviously unsuccessful), i also was aware of the brutal nature of feudal land distribution and noble rule. these points are not new nor do they refute of the notion self rule having inherant value.
there are many antiquated societies that are adapting to modern times (the catholic church considering allowing priests to marry is an example, or muslems allowing women to learn in schools). bizarre cultural traditions can be curbed as international standards (hopefully not american stds) gradually become more accepted. tibet was isolated from the world, this is no loger the case, and it’s naive to assume the brutal practices described in the parenti article would resume under a new tibetan government. what’s so progressive about presuming your ideals are culturally superior to noneuropean cultures ?? (including lenin/marx - PRC).
i repeat..
it is never proper, to invade a militarily weaker culture, murder their leaders and priests, suppress the resistance (murder/torture), colonize (steal) the land w/ culturally different peoples, and then declare it something else, part of the motherland (or fatherland depends on the imperial culture).
why are so many afraid of a real world government that gives people cultural rights? our nation state system is arbitrary and the whole system need to be scrapped.
…peace…
Selfish, overfed, overspending, over-accessorized Americans have been living off of ultra-cheap Chinese products for two decades. Now we complain about a little dust-up about the Chinese abolishing “monk”-ridden slavery on a remote Himalayan plateau? The Chinese are treating the the “monk” slave drivers as if they are saints? What a psyop! How did the US government treat the children in Waco, Texas? We burned them to death!
Yet, we send our gunboats to keep the Chinese peasants slaving to produce the computers we buy for almost nothing at Big Buy! What big heroes we are! This will fail. We can’t push the Chinese peasants to produce more toys for us anymore. ‘Cause we are bankrupt. And they have nukes and ICBMs now. So let’s not continue the denial. You want to “boycott China”? Start by turning off the computer they made for you.
Tibet has always been part of China. Time to give Texas back to the Mexicans. And let’s see how the breakaway Lakota tribe is doing. And don’t ever forget all the Waco Branch Davidian Children we burned to death.
iowablackbird …. that was an excellent post ..
Also ive actually met Parenti briefly … while I agree with a whole lot of what he says in his books he comes across as an apologist for Mao. I do not agree with his insinuations about Tibetan culture and his hinting that China actually helped modernize the Tibetans. We should try asking the Iraqis what they think of our attempts to democratize them !!
riddimboy: Parenti doesn’t insinuate anything, or at least not in this case. If you’ve read his book, do check his references (I know it is too much work).
Excellent posting blues, I couldn’t agree more.
“Now we complain about a little dust-up about the Chinese abolishing “monk”-ridden slavery on a remote Himalayan plateau?”
Thats right … the monks are protesting because they really want to continue being slaves … how stupid is that ?! I give up …
Well, riddimboy, I guess you did not get it.
The monks are NOT protesting because they want to continue being slaves. They are protesting because the Chinese stopped them from enslaving peasants.
Peasants were told that the rich, mostly monks and merchants, were so because they were good and pure in their previous lives and hence were “reincarnated” into persons with a comfortable life. On the other hand, the poor were reincarnated as poor because they were wicked and evil in their previous lives.
So much for a pacifist religion!
“The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery.”
Reference: Gelder and Gelder, The Timely Rain, 175-176;
Strong, Tibetan Interviews, 25-26.
Wow ! Thanks for clearing that up. So the monks are protesting so they can throw off the Chinese oppressors and in turn oppress the rest of the Tibetans. Hmmmm … so what are the rest of the Tibetans protesting (monks are only part of the protestors) … 90% of the protestors were average Tibetans (herders etc) living on the edge of society. I suppose they feel they are better off under the monks than the Chinese ?!! Enlighten me …
Historic note:
The Dalai Lama was about 19 when he was forced deal with the Chinese invasion and occupation as head of state and spiritual leader. He did inherit a somewhat feudal system of land ownership which was no fault of his own.
One of the possible models for a modern Tibet he tried to negotiate with Mao was for Tibet to combine communal ownership of land, democratic elections, a degree of free enterprise (the Tibetans are born traders) and the preservation of Tibetan monastic and cultural traditions.
Instead of working out a new balance in Tibet the Chinese eventually attacked the Potala thus forcing the Dalai Lama to flee to India to save his life and begin working non-violently for Tibetan freedom. The Tibetans have endured over fifty 50 years of brutal occupation and a systematic process of ethnocide.
After reading some of the absurd pro-China propaganda presented here I seems that the Chinese may have invaded our chat rooms.
what can i say riddimboy dude, you are already over-enlightened.
and don’t confuse yourself jconrad, being anti-dalai lama doesn’t (necessarily) mean being pro-china.
that conclusion would suggest that you are rather simple minded.
as “blues” pointed out correctly, if you really want to do something, stop buying chinese made cheap junk. that includes your computer, mp3 player, shoes, t-shirts, etc. etc. which you otherwise have to pay 200% more for (for the american made equivalent).
but i guess that aint gonna happen, is it?
Being pro or anti-Dalai lama is not important in the least bit. The issue is Chinese occupation/annexation of a previously independant Tibet. Its about Chinese oppression of Tibetans. Its about cultural genocide and religious persecution. Its about the Chinese decimating the Tibetan way of life and driving them to poverty and changing the demographics of Tibet by populating Tibet with Han Chinese. All these sins are swept under the carpet under the pretext of civilizing the Tibetans. China needs to get the hell out of Tibet just as the U.S. needs to get the hell out of Iraq.
he Dalai Lama is a Monk. He is not a politician. He is only the temporal head of the government in exile so that there is one. To oppose the imposition of cultural genocide on his people. Those of you who project these political strategies on Tenzin Gyatso do so in base ignorance.