US Plotted To Overthrow Hamas After Election Victory

P.S. upon reflection - talk of Israel in these comments is indeed misplaced. The focus should remain on the Iran Contra-like deceit our leaders are guilty of.

For all we know, after reading the article in Vanity Fair. the U.S. is telling the Israelis what to do to Gaza as our proxy, which they were in the Lebanon invasion.

The full story as told in Vanity Fair is an even more insane and ridiculous reality of events.

Talk about inept leadership. The plan tore the neocon establishment apart over its lack of morality.

The Middle East
The Gaza Bombshell

"By David Rose
Vanity Fair

April 2008 Issue

After failing to anticipate Hamas's victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current US officials, David Rose reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever........

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

[[ Published on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
US Plotted To Overthrow Hamas After Election Victory]]

The emperor has no clothes. This has been the trademark of this administration since day one. there is absolutely nothing too low for it. The surprise is that some posters on this board seem surprise.

Israel IS the EVIL. All Jews should think about continuing to support Israel.

The easy human response to terrorism is an emotionally charged one. The thinking part of the brain shuts down and Fear and Emotion take over. When people are in this frame of mind they are easily manipulated by their leaders. Sun Tzu first pointed this out...and it has been used by many world leaders to promote their own agendas for centuries. Enduring conflicts are rarely solved because even if political leaders do come around that want to negotiate a peace, One of their opportunistic opponents will undermind it by stirring up fear and anger. The English portrayed the Irish as savage terrorists for 800 years of history. Yet after WW1 all of that ended in 26 counties when the English finally made a truce and gave the local population autonomy. The real reason England didn't want to give the Irish freedom was they didn't want to look weak. They had many colonys and if they gave one freedom...maybe that would start a chain reaction. After WW1 England no longer had the money and power to maintain all her Colonys so it had to start letting some of them go. It was never about terrorism or fear of the Irish barbarian. It was about power and control. Enduring conflicts are always about power and control. Vietnam was about power and control. Korea was about power and control. Iraq is about power and control. The problem is it is sooo easy for the few in power to manipulate the masses. As Goering so eloquently stated..."Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in German. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship...All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Truer words were never spoken. Many of the Nazis methods of population control have been adopted by Western Governments. America has adopted the might makes right philosophy of the Nazis. We have not employed total war yet...it is the only step left for us to take though. Sad that the Nazi view of the world did indeed win WW2. We adopted their main principle. That in order for the world to be safe...it must be ruled by one governing body...ours. Of course the Nazis didn't really invent that. Napoleon, Alexander the Great, etc. all had the same notion. It is the way the human brain works. When we get scared or emotional the brain shuts down. Leaders know this and exploit it. I actually agree with some of these posters...the American public is not to blame. They are just responded the way humans respond. They are manipulated by the powerful for their own purposes. There is really nothing that can be done about this. Enough of the world must fight our government until it collapses under the weight of its own corruption. At the pace we are going I give it 20 years...tops. This happen faster now than in Roman times.

The budget should be balanced. Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of officialdom should be tempered, and assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed, lest Rome become bankrupt.
Marcus Tullius Cicero ~80BC

Retire Green: You mean to tell us that Israel does somehow NOT elect its leadership? And yet one of the arguments we keep hearing when folks tell us to STFU about Israeli misbehavior is that it's the "one democracy in the Middle East."

kendpotter: And yet we ARE "a bunch of lunatics, religous fanatics, and war-mongerers." Always have been. It will probably take a couple of World War-style defeats to make us mend our ways.

Now before you start yammering about all of the wonderful sane folks in the United States like yourself and me, let me turn your attention to Genesis 18:16-33. If that kind of behavior is good enough for God, it's probably what the rest of us will suffer from our fellow world citizens some day.

Retire green: Sir, there is no logic to your position. Catholics are indeed responsible for the pope IF THEY SUPPORT HIM. Jews almost to a person support Israel. Muslims are responsible for Bin Laden, if they support him. Bin Laden is fighting for justice, and religious beliefs, Israel only for land. The pope is a pernicious influence and catholics should definitely be challenged on anyhting he does.

You speak of the realization that we are one people. Well, we're not. Jews constantly remind us that they are a separate people that doesn't care what others think. They are at odds with the entire world. You are blind to the behavior of jews throughout history. Jews have acted in ways that isolate them from the community and have shown disrespect for the beliefs of christians for a long time. Jews have separated themselves and you can't simply pretend we are all one people. Act like it first.

You should try to see the truth before you die in the state of delusion you are in now. Many so called jews are europeans who converted and brought with them a mentality that was both xenophobic and belligerent, and in the process have soiled Judaism. Do not assume that jews respect judaism, they don't.They just celebrate the holidays, embrace the holocaust, and Israel. All they care about is their welfare. Israel is an affront to judaism. The fact that your understanding of the situation is shallow is quite obvious. You care mostly about yourself, how else to justify the crimes against humanity which you obviously support?

Of course you need a land for your people, they don't seem able to live in harmony anywhere. In the US they have taken over the government. Why the palestinians should be the ones to give up land is incomprehensible, they didn't do anything to the jews until they were attacked by them. Muslims PROTECTED the jews throughout history. The lack of gratitude would be remarkable if jews had not already shown their contempt for others. Get thinking!

Stonetool: Appropiate name for such a primitive way of thinking. Not only is the point of view self-serving, but the hostility and desire to kill marks this poster as a resentful bigot who has programmed his thinking on a false perception of events. Stonetool is either playing devil's advocate or is blinded by indoctrination. Paleolithic minds.

If you want to see the reality of Israeli occupation pls watch:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1259454859593416473

If you can bear to see the reality "about the greatest democracy on earth, committed to freedom" removing elected governments in Latin America (and elsewhere) and using weapons of mass-deception against the public go to:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3739500579629840148

If US governments (after 1945) were to be held accountable under the Nuremberg laws (and derived international law) ALL of them would be found guilty...

Forget the "elections", the US is a Machiavellian military-corporate machine, posing as a formal decmocracy.... Yes, you have free speech but those who decide your future do not care two hoots about what you want, about any moral imperatives or about injustice....

Why expect anything else? This is what 'democracy' is all about...we like the results of an election...viva democracy!, we don't like the results...we turn darn nasty. It isn't 'the will of the people', it is the will of the big guns.

Is Hamas a bigger Terrorist organization than the CIA and the Pentagon? Or the IDF? I'm not sure it is. It is all a matter of perspective. As Ramzi Yousef said...

You keep talking also about collective punishment and killing innocent people to force governments to change their policies; you call this terrorism when someone would kill innocent people or civilians in order to force the government to change its policies. Well, when you were the first one who invented this terrorism.

You were the first one who killed innocent people, and you are the first one who introduced this type of terrorism to the history of mankind when you dropped an atomic bomb which killed tens of thousands of women and children in Japan and when you killed over a hundred thousand people, most of them civilians, in Tokyo with fire bombings. You killed them by burning them to death. And you killed civilians in Vietnam with chemicals as with the so-called Orange agent. You killed civilians and innocent people, not soldiers, innocent people every single war you went. You went to wars more than any other country in this century, and then you have the nerve to talk about killing innocent people.

And now you have invented new ways to kill innocent people. You have so-called economic embargo which kills nobody other than children and elderly people, and which other than Iraq you have been placing the economic embargo on Cuba and other countries for over 35 years...

The government in its summations and opening said that I was a terrorist. Yes, I am a terrorist and I am proud of it. And I support terrorism so long as it was against the United States Government and against Israel, because you are more than terrorists; you are the one who invented terrorism and using it every day. You are butchers, liars and hypocrites.

the best way to get rid of HAMAS would be to fairly and honestly negotiate with them over land for peace pressuring Israel to negotiate in good faith. HAMAS would be left trying to peacefully rule. I don't think they could do it. Of course Israel and the US would have to give up empire. Fear would also be reduced because less people would have incentive to hate AMERICA.

America is not a democracy.

Is Israel still Handcuffing Children and Torturing them to Death?

I mean I see the pictures of the Dead Babies the Jews Murder with their tanks and jets every day, wrapped in little flags from their stolen country.

But I was curious if The Chosen People were still Torturing Children like they were at Khiam.

The Jewish State Is A Nazi Pig-Sty. It is the Murder-Country.

Sincerely, Non-Chosen Goyem.

I about laughed myself silly when Hamas won the election...... It made Bush's highfalutin words about democracy sound silly, and I could just about hear the groans from the white house clear out here in Montana.

That said....... Hamas is NOT a political organization, it is a terrorist organization dedicated to murdering civilians and anybody else they can reach, dedicated to prolonging the conflict with Israel at the expense of the Palestinians. Groups like Hamas, the PLO, and Hesbola are all criminal organizations with no real desire to reach any accord, or achieve real peace. They bring misery and suffering down on the people around them by murdering innocent people, and fleeing in amongst their own innocents so that the innocent suffer along with the criminals... and then point the finger at the "evil" Israelis who are killing innocent Palestinians in "wanton acts of unprovoked violence". These are the most contemptible of human beings on the planet and have no business governing anybody anywhere. I would be disappointed if Bush did not make some effort to undermine these criminals.... They should be exterminated like the vermin they are!!

Howard

Nothing against Jews, just vehemently against Israel ... the evil state, built on stolen land. Unfortunately Jews created the state.

But guys, "freedom is on the march."

Like in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, and many more examples, I guess we Americans like democracy only when brown people choose the people we like. Otherwise, we have to "help them" select leaders that will do what our corporations want and that will sell-out their own people.

I am saddened to read anti-jewish posts on this thread. It grieves me deeply. Progressive bigots, are bigots, all the same. What fools. Look at the name of the author, of the Guardian article, methinks she is jewish.

While you condemn Israels' collective terror campaign, on the Palestinian population of Gaza, you practice collective bigotry on an entire religion. I cannot, and will not tolerate bigotry anywhere, especially here on Common Dreams.

Your anti-Jewish posts are counter-productive, they re-inforce (perhaps correctly) the idea within the Jewish community, that they must have their own land where they are protected against bigots like you.

Jews are not responsible for the actions of Israel, anymore than Catholics are responsible for the Pope, or Muslims are responsible for Osama bin Laden, that you cannot make that distinction speaks volumes to your ignorance and hatred.

When you come to the realization that we are one people, and that our differences whether, they be color, religion, ethnicity, sexuality etc. are insignificant, then and only then can we build a better world. An Israeli mother sheds the same tears, cries just as hard, feels the same pain, as a Palestinian mother who has lost her child.

We are all one. Your ignorance, hatred, and fear divides us. Please stop.

Ramsay

American government meddling in the affairs of other nations, how absurd!

You know, this happens so often it doesn't get a rise out of the public anymore. Most Americans do not care. A good deal aren't well informed and the rest think it's part of a good foreign policy.

Take a look at what's happening to Chavez. All of a sudden he has to mass his armies on the boarder with Columbia because they did a cross boarder strike on a FARC leader. Of course our government had nothing to do with it. Chavez might now have to get involved in a war with an American backed ally. How many people are going to die?

America just backed Israel with another 30 billion dollars to help in the destruction of the Palestinian people and Hamas.

Terrorism is a relative term, it really depends which side you are on.

lizard -

www.gush-shalom.org

The above obviously follow the causes of social justice and looking at both sides of an issue and conducting oneself humanely that are so strong in the Jewish teachings.

However, I have met Israelis who grew up at a later time, and they don't necessarily have grounding in their own faith or are secular Jews.

I was struck by the arrogance of some of these people.

Growing up in NYC, I met kind, humane and compassionate Jewish people, and since then I have others who I didn't want to be friends with because their many interest was getting a deal or taking advantage of someone if they could.

But isn't that the way it is in any large group. I have met people who call themselves Christians and who are the meanest, most petty, most narrow-minded people who I choose to avoid.

Yet I have met Christians who don't advertise, and yet I know they take their faith very seriously. They are lovely people, who are kind and hospitable and accepting.

I think we have to be careful before blanketly condemning any group of people. The only way one can decide is to meet people one to one or in small groups. One either than can choose to walk away or embrace new friends, and also to remember that no one is perfect and that between the extremes, as you get to know anyone, people have good traits and a few traits not so good.

Best thing to do is say, Hello, and go from there.

peace ...

hamas is a terrorist organization. of course they're going to win the election when the voters have been repressed for so long. they're angry. but hamas is a terrorist organization. don't try to paint it any other way. you don't get to be noble about that. Hamas's election was the first real sign that the bush administration understood to mean that what it was doing wasn't working. all the casualties and such in iraq don't mean a thing to them. they went to iraq to put people in harms way elsewhere, damn the consequences to the indigenous.

LORAX: I have heard the opposite. I hear Israelis are not friendly and are very aggressive. i have a very well travelled biker friend who is jewish and went to Israel. He says they were the most hostile people he has ever met. What do you figure?

What's new? Children, you export democracy by overthrowing rightfully elected governments in other countries. US is the evil nation.

Meddling is US. If you want to understand how such a plague circulates through the culture, befriend a corporate marketing type who's also into public policy. He will explain how the marketing department thinks up ideas to make people buy more, so for example Microsoft's marketeers go to the engineering department and they say "We want a new file format" and the engineers say "To do what?" and the marketeers say "We don't care, just make it do something different to force them to buy new software". Now these marketeers don't make public policy but when they see their government meddling in other governments' affairs they totally identify with it and support it, telling their friends things like "hey look what they're up to now" instead of properly pointing out the meddling for what it is. In the case of corporate marketing departments they are meddling in the market, fabricating demand through manipulation - this is a terrible violation of the rules of markets. And in the case of government meddling in other governments, that's a violation of civic self-determination. Most people outside the US can see the meddling for what it is, and most people inside the US cannot because they are taught to not make connections. The web of connections between things and how things work in this world are hidden from them by the proprietary "black box". Do not look inside. Of course the tiny group of elites know what's going on - they hatch the meddling schemes to gain power, control over resources, and issue orders for the soldiers to carry them out.

This is a great story and we should be pushing for its dissemination throughout the MSM. Yes the information was out there before but not with all the evidence including left behind State Dept 'talking points'!

I like the idea of prefacing Hamas with 'THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED'. It is absolutely true and it is also true as reported by Jimmy Carter that they tried to reach out to Fatah and form unity government after their election.

I suggest we also criticise those people ... including on the Left ... who persist in saying that Hamas came to power through a 'coup'. Even the neo-con Wurmser discredits that.

"We humans are deranged. We have a death wish. We love to destroy. We love to kill."

the speaker of course, is not human...

get off that "we" crap, or at least qualify your ability to speak for the whole race!

NOT just this civilian journalist reported on this very issue at the time Hamas outed Fatah from Gaza,

James M. Wall/ The Christian Century reported on the 12th of June 2007:

...The realities of U.S. military funding of Fatah and U.S. training of Fatah troops leave little doubt that the U.S. is once again choosing sides in another country's internal conflict, and once again displaying the arrogance that led to disasters in Vietnam, El Salvador, Guatemala and Iraq...

...The Western media have ignored the secret plan, focusing instead on its implementation with daily news reports of carnage between radical factions within Hamas and Dahlan's Fatah security forces.

FULL REPORT:

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=3436

e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

how did obama end up being the bad guy in this ? this article has nothing to do with him or how he will deal with hamas or israel.....i betcha it will be more diplomatic than bushco........

The best thing that could come out of this would be some criminal prosecutions for persons who violate their oath of office. We have tended to treat all that sort of thing as political questions left to voters, but that assumes that people need some leeway to exercise their best judgment on difficult questions. That approach assumes too much honesty on the part of the oath taker. The entire Iraq situation is the result of calculated lies meant to use the powers of state, the military and others government offices, to pad favored pockets. The wide spread corruption involving, say construction defects in the US embassy in Baghdad, should be no surprise and should instead be seen as those closest to the core acting like those they deal with, eg, proof of corruption. By using the powers of state to accomplish this, the full faith and credit of the USA insures that the money will be paid. Paid towards corruption rather than to provide good educations, safe infrastructure, modern medical services, etc. What results is a way of keeping tax payers forever in debt hitched with a chain to the cart and unwilling and unable to pay for services which are needed. It's a sabotage plan. Certain elites mean to establish socialism for themselves while they taunt us with the conservative line.
This isn't political policy disagreement. It's criminal. Criminal because they took oathes and made promises intending to merely cast them aside. This doesn't portend the evils of a French Revolution because most are honest and well-intended. But there's a couple of hundred who need to be incarcerated in the 9th ward of New Orleans under the auspices of FEMA, stripped of all political and property rights. They deserve nothing better than they foisted on those they swore to serve and protect.

"We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehoods in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its own people." John Fitzgerald Kennedy

I am heartened to see the majority of folks here condemn the actions of the Bush administration, and our Congress should be included in that condemnation, for its attempts to subvert another free election and alter the results of that election when it turned out not to their liking.

The real question that we should be posing here, in my opinion, is how do we restore the kind of nation in which such actions do not occur? I knw that many if not most of you are confirmed two party addicts and think that by electing either Barak Obama or Hillary Clinton we shall see the nation miraculously restored to its rightful place as a moral leader. Further, with a Democratic majority in the Legislature and a Democratic President in the White House it will rain candy and nuts on us all.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but, after the elections and the passing of the Government into other hands, the same folks will still, as ever, be in charge. It is sad to me that so few understand the differences between the two parties are really quite trivial in the main and neither represents a path to restoring the moral and ethical center in our dealings with our friends and neighbors, our opponents and economic rivals, or even in giving our own citizenry a fair shake.

As you might surmise by now I am a third party guy, I seek to elect those politicians pledged to shun corporate monies and the subsequent influence that money brings over our legislation and direction. It is sad that many, far too many, understand the difference in governance that third parties represent but think that path too slow by far, that a vote for Nader or McKinney is a wasted vote. I believe that a vote for Obama or Clinton is a wasted vote frankly, that neither represents real change at all. The sooner the electorate understands that they are really secondary in the minds of a politican once elected, that his/her thoughts turn immediately to what must be done to generate the corporate funding for a re-election campaign and , ultimately, an after politics job as a six or seven figure lobbyist the sooner we can bring about real change in this country.

"Where men build on false ground, the more they build, the greater is the ruin." Hobbes, Leviathon

Are we ever going to a bunch of politicians inside the Beltway who have any solution other than to supply somebody else with arms to kill, kill, kill those whom ghey perceive to be our enemies? When can we expect to have public policy makers who are not blood-thirsty?

Commenting on "Roman freedom" Plutarch sarcastically said that the subjects never have more freedom than that conceded by the Roman empire. Isn't it very true with regards to "American democracy" and "American freedom"? Palestine is one of the examples.

AndyUK

"This is all standard fare, by US foreign policy standards. We only have to go back to the Mossadeq government in Iran, the support of Sadaam Hussein, Musharref in Pakistan, the list is pretty much endless."

Unfortunately, all together too true. We talk a good game about promoting democracy, but any student of history (as you obviously are) can easily see the difference between talk and application.

I am no fan of Hamas, but people deserve the goevernment they elect. Our own country is afflicted (like the plague) by a leader we didn't elect - twice. And see where we are today because of it. Even our long-standing best friends , the Brits, Aussies, and Canadians think we're a bunch of lunatics, religous fanatics, and war-mongerers. I hope we can right these wrongs before our international relations are irreparably harmed.

dboylon March 4th, 2008 2:31 pm:

"Vanity fair broke a taboo here…that is what makes it so good. Americans are not supposed to hear from Palestinians."

Hi dboylon, this is a quote from the Vanity Fair article:
---
With few good options left, the administration now appears to be rethinking its blanket refusal to engage with Hamas. Staffers at the National Security Council and the Pentagon recently put out discreet feelers to academic experts, asking them for papers describing Hamas and its principal protagonists. "They say they won't talk to Hamas," says one such expert, "but in the end they're going to have to. It's inevitable."
---

dboylon, this paragraph might explain why, as you say ""Vanity fair broke a taboo here". VF has permission from the US government to talk to insiders and change the public narrative so that future US moves vis-à-vis the Palestinians make sense to Americans, at least superficially.

The US has to prepare the stage for talks with the "savage barbarian" as you say. Either that or it is another feint. It's difficult isn't it to get inside the head of the Bush government. Just when you think that they have no alternative but to do the sensible thing, they create a whole new disaster out of virtually nowhere.

By the way, I agree it is a good piece in Vanity Fair. My comment, as you evidently understand, is that information, like this, needs to be delivered when it most benefits the citizens and not at a time of the government's choosing.

please pardon me for the duplicate postings.

seems that a glitch occurred and my first post did not appear when i refreshed this page until after i tried again and the second one showed.

xox + only all good 2 U all,

Only in Solidarity do "We have it in our power to begin the world again"-Tom Paine

Eileen Fleming,

Reporter and Editor WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"

Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"

kelmer

"Throwing puppies off cliffs and piling prisoners naked into pyramids. Fuck this warrior worship.
People who willingly go into combat are either sadists or fools."

Wrongo - The military is a pretty good cross-section of this society. The military contains fools and sadists just like this country. Just like this country, the military contains many fine people. You want to spout a generality? Fine, but like any generality it contains a germ of truth and a great deal of nonsense.

Imagine how this headline would have played out had it been on the cover of the NYT and the WaPo, instead of the Guardian.

My blog is entitled: Destructive Creation. It refers to mankind.

We will, eventually, and probably sooner rather than later, destroy ourselves and our world. We have enough weapons to destroy whole universes.

We humans are deranged. We have a death wish. We love to destroy. We love to kill. Unfortunately our 'intelligence' is not enough to save us from ourselves.

www.dangerouscreation.com

If Hamas is a terrorist organization, what is wrong with supporting their opposition?

If Hamas were voted into power in America, occupied the white house and congress, would things be better?

hhhhhhmmmmmmmm, where can we reach these guys?

"we do it over there so they cant do it over here" or something like that

Anyway, when will they stop F'ng around in EVERYONE else's business??

why we are not in the streets in overwhelming #'s is beyond me.....

dboylon says:
I specifically remember the New York times not printing Ramzi Yousef's statement at his sentencing hearing because it "would give a voice" to terrorism. Enough people complained that they wound up printing at the back of section B at a later date. I mean after all…why would anybody want to know why an Arab man would want to blow up the twin towers…its not like they would try it again or anything…oh…whoops…forgot.

http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1619
++++++++++

What we don't know is whether Ramzi Yousef admitted to having had anything to do with 9/11.

But what struck me when I used the above site link, were the memos written to Cheney and others by Wanniski. What Ramzi Yousef justifiably and reasonably says in his statement is ignored. DENIAL that the U.S. and the disaster capitalists and the Israeli Zionist contingent and the mega-mega world-wealth controllers and the military insanities wherever they are have any culpability for the state of our current world is thicker than the measurement of every person on this globe stacked up to the moon or however far that stack would reach.

++++++++++++++++++++++++
dboylon also says:
Vanity fair broke a taboo here…that is what makes it so good. Americans are not supposed to hear from Palestinians. Their voices are to be silenced here. Otherwords the average joe might start thinking for himself. Americans are kept in the dark so that when things happen in the world…they won't know why until our political leaders tell them…that way rather than hearing the story from the participants perspective (the people actual engaged in the crisis). They believe what our leaders want them to believe.

+++++++++++++++++++
Of course, but I disagree that the information isn't readily available.

Just this morning as I read financial analyses, including an article ... that the CRASH has already occurred and it's downhill for THE PEOPLE from here ... try $10 for a loaf of bread ... [the Big Boy Capitalists and Corporations already have their loot socked away and are reaping in more] and then I scooted over to this site and that site with real news and analyses by very well-credentialed sources around the world, I've learned enough to know that we are confronting true DOOMSDAY scenarios teetering on a fault line.

And yet what I read in many essays and in many comments are statements that begin with: They shouldn't do this ... They ought to do this ... Gee, that's against the law ...

That's like spittin' into a hurricane wind comin' at your face.

The symbolic and maybe real hurricanes, the tornadoes, the tsunamis, the earthquakes, the avalanches, the flood waters, the drought conditions are all gathering power ... and then there's a matter of the craziest bunch of people who ever had power to give the orders to spring the nukes ...

The information is available to any American who can read and has a little curiosity ...

There's a big picture here ... not a little one, and everything of true, self-serving nastiness is interconnected and foreshadowing DOOMSDAY scenarios ...

But on the bright everything on this beautiful earth is interconnected too, including people ... So instead of "They shouldn't do this..." "They ought to do this ..." perhaps the more important thing is what are we going to do; what am I going to do; what are you going to do?

Words are easy to write and to speak ... Actions and deeds for the good of self, for the care of your families and friends, for the stranger ... are what speak volumes. The future is coming fast ...

peace ...

From AP:

"Gaza Strip - About 25 Israeli armored vehicles rumbled into southern Gaza and clashed with militants after nightfall Tuesday. A 1-month-old baby was killed in the crossfire, a medical official said."

Condi will need to wait for the Palestineans to finish burying their martyrs before she demands unconditional surrender to the Zionists.

This article and Vanity Fair gives us the impression that this "plan" was never actually carried out.

BS! Nothing could be furhter from the truth. Why not report it like it is? It is altogether obvious that this plan was carried out, and just look at all the damage it has done!

Since Gaza rightfully belongs to the Palestinians, what is the IDF doing there? Neither agency is respecting the political boundries established after the Arab-Israeli war (which Israel won). The people in Gaza live in poverty and misery. The only time they see Israelis is when they are being pushed around or attacked.
(the poor man finally cannot take anymore and he picks up a brick to throw at the aggressors. he is then shot dead for his efforts)
I have been to Israel. I walked down the street alone in Haifa and never felt afraid. It is a nice place and the people are kind. I have also been to the UAE and walked down the street alone in Dubai and never felt threatened. The people there were kind and it was a beautiful place also. The Israeli people are NOT the problem, neither are the Palestinians. The problem is the Israeli political policies mirror those of the USA. (Aggressive, violent, irrational, with no respect for foreign culture or differences) The political policies routinely walk all over the Palestinians. Then we have the gall to ask "Why do they hate us?".
Compounding the problem is the method in which the Palestinians make war. The suicide bombings are contrary to Israeli and American religious belief.
Israel must make the first step to peace. Israel is the aggressor and the violator. Once they make a serious foreign policy change, Lebanon must follow suit. As long as the referee (USA) is siding with the Israelis, the conflict will never be resolved.

@USAn March 4th, 2008 12:01 pm
"Never utter the word "Hamas" without putting the words "democratically elected" in front of it. Also, never utter the phrase "war on terror" without putting the phrase "so-called" in front of it."

Never utter the word terrorism alone without prefixing, i.e. "State Terrorism" or "Non State Terrorism" :-

"Terrorism: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives." - FBI.

This is typical of MOST definitions of terrorism in that the actor is a terrorist whether it/he/she is a state or a non state and whether or not low tech destruction (e.g. home made bombs) or high tech destruction (stealth bombers with DU payload or cluster bombs) are used.

When there's a discussion of what's happening in Gaza, one of the things one always hear is that the Palestinians are wrong for trying to use violence to resist.

But what choice have we left them?

When they had elections, we attempted to rig the elections in advance and favored the corrupt PA. After we didn't like the election results, we attempted to overthrow the elected government. And if the Palestinians were to try to non-violently protest this, there's a) no one who would listen nor pay attention, and b) if they did it anywhere near Israeli troops they'd be shot down in the streets.

So, what options is the world leaving them besides them arming themselves and striking back anyway they can?

If you want non-violence, you have to leave the door open to non-violent change. That's supposed to be the reason for elections. They aren't supposed to be some feel-good event that puts into power exactly who the powerful want in power. Elections are supposed to be the opportunity for freedom and democracy to work to allow a society to create the course the members of that society desire.

Of course, if you have freedom and democracy, the first thing Gazan society would demand is the end of the occupation and their own sovereign state. All the current violence stems from the root cause of Israel wanting this land and deciding to take it and hold it with violence. That's the truth of today. If the Palestinians were to have their own free and sovereign state and were to use that to attack Israel, then we could blame them and talk about Israel's right to exist. But with the situation today, we are talking entirely about Israel's violent land grab. That's the root cause of all the violence by all sides of this now three-way battle.

And George is my shepherd
I shall never fear
He makith me to lie
Down in (someone else's) green pastures.

Genocide and this Neo-Holocaust will continue
unto complete surrender of all Palestinean
hopes and lands. The world's quintessential
rogue states will never comply with U.N. Resolution 242.

Vanity fair broke a taboo here...that is what makes it so good. Americans are not supposed to hear from Palestinians. Their voices are to be silenced here. Otherwords the average joe might start thinking for himself. Americans are kept in the dark so that when things happen in the world...they won't know why until our political leaders tell them...that way rather than hearing the story from the participants perspective (the people actual engaged in the crisis). They believe what our leaders want them to believe. That Fatah was just going about its business...and the US goverment was just going about its business...and suddely these savage barbarian Hamas people from out of nowhere staged a bloody revolt. And the Fox news responds with outrage...and declares...What will our government to do stop this!!! When or course they caused the whole catastrophe!!! This is the whole purpose of information control.

I specifically remember the New York times not printing Ramzi Yousef's statement at his sentencing hearing because it "would give a voice" to terrorism. Enough people complained that they wound up printing at the back of section B at a later date. I mean after all...why would anybody want to know why an Arab man would want to blow up the twin towers...its not like they would try it again or anything...oh...whoops...forgot.

http://www.wanniski.com/showarticle.asp?articleid=1619

jlocke is correct to criticize the media but he has this wrong...it was more than an article. It was an investigative report and a very good one. Members of Hamas, Fatah (Dahlan...specifically), and US government officials were interviewed. The sad thing is that you can't read reporting like this in the New York Times or Washington Post...it has to come from Vanity Fair. Pathetic. You can read the 8 page story online. It is very good. Most American's attention span is only two minutes so nobody will probably read it.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

is this supposed to be news?

duh

Published on Tuesday, March 4, 2008 by The Guardian/UK
US Plotted To Overthrow Hamas After Election Victory

Exactly who in the [US] did the plotting and who would carry it out? Seems to me this is a tradition with the executive and covert branches of our government. Overthrowing democratically elected governments. Isn't there laws against this? And isn't there someone supposed to enforce the laws?
If another nation had done this it would be labeled as terrorism. It is state sponsored terrorism.

USAn March 4th, 2008 12:01 pm
"Also, never utter the phrase "war on terror" without putting the phrase "so-called" in front of it."

I always call it the U.S. war of terror.

Just once I wish my nation's foreign policy wasn't so monumentally retarded.

It is gonna be a while to decide who to vote for but many here are predicting that Obama will not try to talk to Hamas or get Israel to talk about a truce too.

Well See about that.

Russian Syrian ties are growing.

CIA-US attempts to subvert democracy are recognized quickly now. No more Mossadeq's, which cost the CIA about a million dollars, and was a 'coup' a fait accompli before the vicims knew what hit them.

Global awareness is light years beyond that everywhere now.

Eff Fatah, to be polite.

And the beat goes on !

Is there any country in the world more interfering than the US? Why can't we just leave other countries alone? Amy Goodman did a story about how the 4 million in "aid" we give to Bolivia is being used to overthrow the democratically elected president there. It's making me sick to live in this country.

AndyUK - Aye, aye. Seems that current middle east episodes are largely related to 1953 when we (U.S.), with incoming Eisenhower and the Dulles brothers, finally agreed to Churchill's plea for help overthrowing Mossadeq. We gave Iran the Shah (who, of course was only our guy for awhile). Funny how people get mad when we do stuff like that. I just learned how UK controlled all of Iran's oil at the time. Hmmph. I live in San Francisco. Latest gas price board in my neighborhood: $3.99 (and 9/10). At least we're not at $4.00 yet.

We tried to rig the election before it happened.

Then we tried to overturn the election results after it happened.

This is not even close to "leading by example" on the issue of democracy.

Shame on our American leaders. Shame on the monopoly media. Shame on American citizens for consuming the crap that our leaders and monopoly media are feeding us.

This is all standard fare, by US foreign policy standards. We only have to go back to the Mossadeq government in Iran, the support of Sadaam Hussein, Musharref in Pakistan, the list is pretty much endless.
I have no doubts, that if we picked a Prime Minister in the UK, who wanted to change the "special relationship", then he would be overthrown.

This is an easy one for BushCo...I can see them sitting around the Oval Office now:
RICE: "Hmmm, how will we spin this? Hey junior spinmeister, wanna crack at it?"
JR: "Sure...let's see, Hamas are terrorists, therefore we're justified in overturning the election"
RICE: "Good job sonnie, you're a real quick learner arentcha".

BTW, this kind of MO is par for the course for USA, Dem and Repub,...see the book Overthrow by Steve Kinzer.

Yeah Ragdoll,Bush figures if he takes away all of our freedoms the terrorists will not hate us anymore.

Why does the phrase 'Iran Conra' come to mind?

And why mention Obama? - any new president will orchestrate his/her own foreign policy fuck ups! Think three possible openings on the Supreme Court, think media consolidation, think net neutrality. Oh yeah, I want habeus corpus back too. Who you gonna call?

Meanwhile Bush would have us believe of the terrorists that "THEY hate our freedoms." By gosh, for once I agree with the guy when we see this ignoble variety of "our freedoms!"

Throwing puppies off cliffs and piling prisoners naked into pyramids.

Fuck this warrior worship.
People who willingly go into combat are either sadists or fools.

Buffy St Marie had it right.

Boy, the news organs ARE shutting down in the US aren't they. He're outside the asylum, we read about this and saw it on TV news in June 2007. Perhaps next you will be reading about the moon landings.

For those of you relying on American news, I'll fill you in on what I can remember. The Hamas government had just won the election in the occupied territories. Jimmy Carter and other respected observers declared the election free and fair. Naturally, America allotted around, I think it was fifty million dollars for weapons to be given to the losers, Fatah, These were mostly rifles, in other words guns that were only good for killing fellow Palestinians and not useful against US F-16s and Israeli tanks. Naturally, The elected Palestinian government didn't like that. There was a fight. Hamas won, again, albeit only in Gaza. The divide and conquer goal of Rice's "diplomacy" was successful. Fast forward to March 2008 and someone at Vanity Fair, apparently, discovers an old foreign newspaper clipping and voila, you have an article fit for Vanity Fair.

vote nader

So three great revalations today:

1. Fatah actually working for the CIA,
2. Obama assures Harper-Tory Canadians that his talk of renegotiating NAFTA is just so much BS being fed the midwest US electorate.
3. Our brave trooops like to throw helpless puppys off cliffs. (Google it to view it)

Hamas was brought to power by the Palestinian people in free and fair elections.

The U.S. call for democracy in the Arab world is a hollow and fraudulent endeavor.

"We were ripping each other to pieces"

Duh and double duh. When your philosphy is so contradicting, then in the end, you rip yourselves apart.

Humanity can do better.

Well this pretty much vindicates Hamas for their actions against the US stooge fatah in Gaza last year. If only they could have been successful in Ramallah too.

Like Amy does in Democracy Now, we must expose the lies and hypocracy at every turn. Never utter the word "Hamas" without putting the words "democratically elected" in front of it. Also, never utter the phrase "war on terror" without putting the phrase "so-called" in front of it.

To quote Talleyrand: "Worse than a crime - a blunder!"

"We were ripping each other to pieces."

If that were true this would be a better world.

And Obama wants to follow in Bush's footsteps by continuing to shun Hamas. The Israeli lobby clearly has control of politicians in this country.

Bush's "short history". "WAR Is Peace, Freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength" George Orwell's Ministry of Truth.

Hi corvo

"kendpotter: Now before you start yammering ....."

I would never yammer ;)

"let me turn your attention to Genesis 18:16-33. If that kind of behavior is good enough for God, it's probably what the rest of us will suffer from our fellow world citizens some day."

My favorite part of the Bible is where Jesus asks us to treat the least among us as if that person were Jesus (I don't remember the exact quote). I truly wish the religious right would remember His teachings and not just the Old Testament.

I am a student of history. I would like to be able to convince people that we are headed in the wrong direction and that we should take lessons from history so that we won't have to repeat it. Unfortunately, a great many of the people in this country don't know any history and are quite proud of it. I don't know where this anti-intellectualism comes from but Bush couldn't have been elected any other way. I don't know that we can turn this country around short of the sort of disasters you seem to think necessary. I will continue to hope so and try my best to do so.