Amman, Jordan — I am a Palestinian from Nazareth, a citizen of Israel and was, until last month, a member of the Israeli parliament.
But now, in an ironic twist reminiscent of France’s Dreyfus affair — in which a French Jew was accused of disloyalty to the state — the government of Israel is accusing me of aiding the enemy during Israel’s failed war against Lebanon in July.
Israeli police apparently suspect me of passing information to a foreign agent and of receiving money in return. Under Israeli law, anyone — a journalist or a personal friend — can be defined as a “foreign agent” by the Israeli security apparatus. Such charges can lead to life imprisonment or even the death penalty.
The allegations are ridiculous. Needless to say, Hezbollah — Israel’s enemy in Lebanon — has independently gathered more security information about Israel than any Arab Knesset member could possibly provide. What’s more, unlike those in Israel’s parliament who have been involved in acts of violence, I have never used violence or participated in wars. My instruments of persuasion, in contrast, are simply words in books, articles and speeches.
These trumped-up charges, which I firmly reject and deny, are only the latest in a series of attempts to silence me and others involved in the struggle of the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel to live in a state of all its citizens, not one that grants rights and privileges to Jews that it denies to non-Jews.
When Israel was established in 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled in fear. My family was among the minority that escaped that fate, remaining instead on the land where we had long lived. The Israeli state, established exclusively for Jews, embarked immediately on transforming us into foreigners in our own country.
For the first 18 years of Israeli statehood, we, as Israeli citizens, lived under military rule with pass laws that controlled our every movement. We watched Jewish Israeli towns spring up over destroyed Palestinian villages.
Today we make up 20% of Israel’s population. We do not drink at separate water fountains or sit at the back of the bus. We vote and can serve in the parliament. But we face legal, institutional and informal discrimination in all spheres of life.
More than 20 Israeli laws explicitly privilege Jews over non-Jews. The Law of Return, for example, grants automatic citizenship to Jews from anywhere in the world. Yet Palestinian refugees are denied the right to return to the country they were forced to leave in 1948. The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty — Israel’s “Bill of Rights” — defines the state as “Jewish” rather than a state for all its citizens. Thus Israel is more for Jews living in Los Angeles or Paris than it is for native Palestinians.
Israel acknowledges itself to be a state of one particular religious group. Anyone committed to democracy will readily admit that equal citizenship cannot exist under such conditions.
Most of our children attend schools that are separate but unequal. According to recent polls, two-thirds of Israeli Jews would refuse to live next to an Arab and nearly half would not allow a Palestinian into their home.
I have certainly ruffled feathers in Israel. In addition to speaking out on the subjects above, I have also asserted the right of the Lebanese people, and of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to resist Israel’s illegal military occupation. I do not see those who fight for freedom as my enemies.
This may discomfort Jewish Israelis, but they cannot deny us our history and identity any more than we can negate the ties that bind them to world Jewry. After all, it is not we, but Israeli Jews who immigrated to this land. Immigrants might be asked to give up their former identity in exchange for equal citizenship, but we are not immigrants.
During my years in the Knesset, the attorney general indicted me for voicing my political opinions (the charges were dropped), lobbied to have my parliamentary immunity revoked and sought unsuccessfully to disqualify my political party from participating in elections — all because I believe Israel should be a state for all its citizens and because I have spoken out against Israeli military occupation. Last year, Cabinet member Avigdor Lieberman — an immigrant from Moldova — declared that Palestinian citizens of Israel “have no place here,” that we should “take our bundles and get lost.” After I met with a leader of the Palestinian Authority from Hamas, Lieberman called for my execution.
The Israeli authorities are trying to intimidate not just me but all Palestinian citizens of Israel. But we will not be intimidated. We will not bow to permanent servitude in the land of our ancestors or to being severed from our natural connections to the Arab world. Our community leaders joined together recently to issue a blueprint for a state free of ethnic and religious discrimination in all spheres. If we turn back from our path to freedom now, we will consign future generations to the discrimination we have faced for six decades.
Americans know from their own history of institutional discrimination the tactics that have been used against civil rights leaders. These include telephone bugging, police surveillance, political delegitimization and criminalization of dissent through false accusations. Israel is continuing to use these tactics at a time when the world no longer tolerates such practices as compatible with democracy.
Why then does the U.S. government continue to fully support a country whose very identity and institutions are based on ethnic and religious discrimination that victimize its own citizens?
Azmi Bishara was a member of the Knesset until his resignation in April.
© 2007 The Los Angeles Times
So much for the advertised ‘fact’ that Israel is a democracy. It is nothing more than a theological state that practices apartheid under the guise of democracy. And they reek of racism.
Only the USA encourages or overlooks this behavior of Israel on the world stage. Why is that I wonder? No nation, more than the USA, through the veto at the United Nations, enables the disgracful behavior of the Israeli state. It places both the USA and Israel in the truly ironic and hypocritical situation of appearing to be ROGUE STATES, not adhering to the “Rule of Law” in the community of nations.
It is a genuine travesty, IMO of course.
“Only the USA encourages or overlooks this behavior of Israel on the world stage. Why is that I wonder?”
The reason is that the US, like Israel, and formerly, apartheid South Africa. who also heavily backed Israel, is fairly apparent. All these countries have exceptionalism as their national religion. They deeply believe that they are a special, superior god-chosen people for whom rules are only for others. This leads to a delusion that they are under continuous threat from the envious, non-chosen people, thus the brutal militarism.
It also leads the exceptionalist nations to invade other nations, committing the most horrible atrocities, under the delusion that they are actually doing “these people” a favor.
The common historical thread running through nationalistic exceptionalism is that such nations were founded through violent persecution and ethnic-cleansing by settlers - and the settlers themselves usually suffered religious perseuction in their old countries. So we have the The Boers from the N. Europe to South Africa, the various puritan and seperatist sects from England to N. America, and the Jews from Europe to the land of Palestine.
I know this theory isn’t perfect, as the English are exceptionalist, and nobody ever persecuted them. But what socialogical theory is?
Mr. Bishara has two choices, he can either demand fair treatment and an open platform for his complaints against Israel from an honest and fair-minded American media, or he can sprout a pair of wings and flutter off to another planet, there to live ever after in eternal bliss. Both are equally realistic.
http://www.ussliberty.org/
PJD above, offers a great idea as to why the USA is so supportive of a Rogue Nation such as Israel.
National exceptionalism,is an interesting idea. Good post.
Mr. Bashara-
I’m an Israeli citizen and I think you are completely wrong. Whatever conditions exist now, you were elected to serve the citizens of the country. Instead you chose to parade abroad instead of actually doing anything productive back here at home. Your resignation proves you have let down all Israelis, both Arabs and Jews.
Here are some quotes from your article and points I have problems with:
“Anyone committed to democracy will readily admit that equal citizenship cannot exist under such conditions.”
I find it hard to believe you actually bothered to review the laws of the Knesset and Supreme Court rulings. Israel’s basic laws specifically denote equal citizenship for all citizens. The notion that Israel is racist because it is a Jewish state is completely fallacious and is a double-standard. The UK and Spain are two examples of states that have official establishments with religion. According to your logic, these states must be discriminatory as well because they are sponsoring religion, thus “preferring” one religion over another. And what about the other Arab states you have spent so much time in. You mean to tell me that these states—most of which are officially Islamic Republics— provide fairness and equality under their laws? I see that your editorial was published in Amman, Jordan—a state which has peace with Israel, but also codes for the death penalty for any person who sells property to a Jew.
I have always been a long-time active supporter of rights and democracy. Do you include yourself in the list of those “committed to democracy?” Apparently not, since you succinctly stated in Beirut on one of your visits that “We don’t want any democracy.” This sounds a bit hypocritical to me. It’s no wonder nobody has taken to the streets to demonstrate in your support, because frankly, your interests do not lie with the people who elected you (in a democratic society might I add). While Hezbollah rockets fell all over the North (hitting both Arab and Jewish cities) you were dining with Nisrallah and busy meeting with foreign leaders. What would you say to the families of the two people in your hometown of Nazareth that were killed? The question that keeps repeating itself in my mind is this: What are you trying to accomplish? I think you’d be better off as an actor as you seem to flourish when the spotlight is on you. That is your reputation here, in both Jewish and Arab cities. Not a man of peace but a self-centered drama queen.
“separate but unequal…they cannot deny us our history and identity”
Nobody is denying your history or identity. This conflict is tragic for everybody. I hope you aren’t trying to allude that schools are somehow “separated” here based on race. Arabs and Jews for the most part attend separate schools because we don’t mostly live in the same towns nor speak the same language. Furthermore, the Israeli curriculum used in Arab schools is fairly autonomous and places much emphasis on Arab culture and literature.
You mention that 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948. I am not arguing that these people were not mistreated. What about the Jews in Arab lands? Contrary to what you might think, the narrative is not unique: Jews have been discriminated against (and killed, for that matter) under Islamic rule for over 1500 years, and continue to face such discrimination in every Islamic country to this day. The reason Israel exists as a Jewish state is to prevent genocide of the Jewish people. After thousands of years of being persecuted, we are not going to let holocausts become a common occurrence. This provides the logic behind the so-called “right of return.” Conversely, the state of Palestine, (for which I and many other fellow Israelis, both Jews and Arabs, having been seeking to foster) will serve the Palestinian people in the same way: all Palestinian refugees will be able to seek residence in their State.
You start your article defining yourself as a citizen of Israel, but you didn’t describe yourself as an Israeli, per se. Whether you like it or not, Arabs and Jews living in this land now share much the same identity. You say that Israel actively discriminates against its Arab citizens in “all spheres” of life. While I don’t agree with your statement, I agree with you in that the government has not always been fair in its policy towards Arab citizens. This is a problem, but is not something that cannot be fixed. I really think this is a two-way street. I am involved in many organizations including Israeli-Arab ones. You continuously renounce Israel in everyway possible, but when push comes to shove you have done relatively little to help improve the conditions of Arab towns. Instead of fighting mismanagement and embezzlement of monies in municipal bodies, you have fled the country. When people here see you demonizing Israel, meeting with the same people who actively seek our destruction, Jewish-Arab relations ultimately suffer. Why not promote tolerance and understanding between our communities? If you keep identifying yourself as “one” and us as the “other” nothing will happen.
“After all, it is not we, but Israeli Jews who immigrated to this land. Immigrants might be asked to give up their former identity in exchange for equal citizenship, but we are not immigrants.” What is your argument here? I am not an immigrant I was born here just like you. You are no more native than I am. Are you trying to imply that Arabs have more rights to this land than Jews? Isn’t this an extremist view? How many more lives both of Arabs and Jews must be lost to prove this isn’t true. I think everybody knows that both people have equally important attachments to this land. Despite all of this, you continue to meet with Hezbollah and promote conflict—not peace—in the region. You say Hezbollah has more knowledge of Israel’s Security than any Arab Knesset member would know. Obviously you know what they know, because you have met them on countless occasions. Perhaps you’d be willing to share upon arrival in Israel?
Won’t make the Daily Show.
jb88gogg
You deny the bigotry that happens in your own country. Mr. Bashara must have hit a pretty important nerve for you to so bloviate. Maybe you can explain to me why in your country Arabs are called Israelie-Arabs, or Jewish-Arabs? While in America it’s the other way around; African-American, Chinese-American,etc…,. The point I am trying to make here is that both of you fight for your thoughts based on the Religions’ that you believe. It’s these ‘religions’ that are destroying humankind. You people even believe in the same God, yet can’t decide on who is the real prophet. What is interesting are the words I read in an article the other day in which the writer explains that after the death of Jesus, Christianity and Judaism were allowed to grow and flourish while under Arab rule. It’s all a farce! Everythinig you believe in was written thousands of years ago by people who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Have you learned nothing?
jpbreeze
“You deny the bigotry that happens in your own country”
Maybe read my article before trying to respond. Arabs are full equal citizens and Israel is one of the only Middle Eastern countries where Arab women can vote. However I agree that attitudes towards Arab citizens in Israel have been far from perfect. I am not denying the plight of Palestinians nor any historical events. As a person who actually lives here, I want to see a better life here. How would denying something that exists help achieve peace? I am recognising such problems because ultimately they need to be solved one way or another.
Speaking of denying bigotry, your statement about Islamic rule is incorrect. Christians and Jews were not allowed to “flourish” as you mention. While they were not persecuted they were however treated as second-class citizens known as Dhimmi. Most historians agree that this treatment was better than, say, living under Christian Europe.
Nevertheless, it’s a common misconception that this current conflict is based upon religion, especially for people who have never been here to simply rely on hearsay or the media. It isn’t. Aren’t you being the bigot by assuming we all believe in the same thing, and that we are fighting on deciding who is the real prophet? Actually, I wish things could be as simple as you describe them but they are not. It sounds like you have never been here before since most people are not actually religious fanatics. I myself am very secular.
You bring up an interesting point about the identity of Arab citizens in Israel. Nobody calls them “Israel-Arabs” or “Arab Jews” – there is no official name. Identity is something somebody decides for their self. Because the situation is complex and unique I would say that each Arab citizen of Israel has their own personal identity. Some may identify as Palestinians in Israel, others differently. It doesn’t matter what somebody calls them because their identity ultimately is who they believe they are, not what somebody else believes.
“When Israel was established in 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled in fear”
Well, I stopped reading here.
This guy is as reliable as the “Protocols” were.
All the comments above are predictably repulsive.
‘This guy is as reliable as the “Protocols” were.’
Yes, but this guy - Mr. Bashara - is (or was, now that he resigned) was an MP in the Knesset.
So, whether one likes what another person says or not, you can’t simply “stop reading.” You might not like certain things, but if people just “stop reading” or “stop caring” nothing will change.
jpbreeze,
I am sorry I didn’t notice your comments. Your comments are
not repulsive
I am not surprised to see fd32 - a resident antisemite
I meant, of course, jb88gogg’s comments are not repulsive.
jpbreeze’s comments are ignorant, manipulative and repulsive
jb88gogg, I’m sorry
Several things:
- I happened to have a degree in Jewish history with emphasis on antisemitism.
- Personally, I don’t feel like dealing with the guy, and I don’t have to.
Eurobelle - I’m sorry too. Knowing you have much background, I understand your viewpoint.
Dear eurobelle and jb88gogg with a degree in Jewish history,
I picked up the first book I found to document the 1948 war, “A Captain’s Mandate-Palestine 1946-48″, written by Philip Brutton, a soldier who was there at the time. Page 164 where he says that after Israeli massacre of the village of Deir Yassin, “700,000 Palestinians fled”, so keep on reading-perhaps about Palestinians, as well as Jews.
Dear eurobelle and jb88gogg with a degree in Jewish history,
I picked up the first book I found to document the 1948 war, “A Captain’s Mandate-Palestine 1946-48″, written by Philip Brutton, a soldier who was there at the time. Page 164 where he says that after Israeli massacre of the village of Deir Yassin, “700,000 Palestinians fled”, so keep on reading-perhaps about Palestinians, as well as Jews.
What is your point? I’m always reading and informing myself and I’m sure eurobelle does too. Of course I know about Deir Yassin.
Mr Bashara
Unlike most countries in the world, Israel is a country where religion is a factor; it goes against common logic, but so do 2000 years of exile and persecution for the Jews.
You are right that this creates inequality between Jews and Arabs in the country; this is why a 2 STATE solution is being discussed, so that Arabs/Palestinian may also find solace.
In 1947, India and Pakistan separated on the basis of RELIGION TOO, and a two state solution was implemented to have Muslim on one side and Hindus on the other. People AGREED to that for the sake of sanity and future generations. The same should happen between Israel and Palestine eventually.
I would suggest you stop hiding behind the plight of the Arab Israelis because despite existing problems, this DOES NOT justify you going as a member of a democratic government, to sell your country to the ennemy. If you are against Israel and want to abolish it, join the Palestinian in Gaza; have the integrity not to join the government!
In the meantime what you have done is Sabotage the fragile trust that exist between Arab and Jews. You add more fuel to the fire and compromise the well being of your own clan! Arab Israelis’ reputation is stained because of you.
And for those here who refer to Israel as a non-democratic state, please spend a couple of hours in Syria, Saoudi Arabia, Iran, Afganistan and see what your experience of democratic justice is. I wonder if these folks would have the guts to question their own government’s policies of war as is done now in Israel. That is an example of democracy.
Bashara, your life was not easy, but you fucked up big time! Now playing victim will not cover up for your mess.
Shame…
jb88gogg,
Dear Friend,
The first book is not necessary the best. Opening a page is nice, reading the entire book would be even better, reading many books would be even better, knowing that not all sources are equal etc.
It would be nice if you knew what preceded this tragic event (a hint - many, many more Jewish deaths), it would be nice if you knew the role Arab countries played in Palestinian exodus (a hint - misinformation, provocation), it would be nice if you didn’t trust the number etc.
jb88gogg
Can I also recommend you read something about prejudices, double standards, selectivity etc.
If you believe in a “Higher Being” or God or whatever you want to call him/her/it then surely you all worship the same entity.
I am so glad to be Australian where we only argue over which is the better footy team or, which car is better -Holden or Ford-.
PJD,
I can assure there is a difference between puritans in this land, and Jews in Jerusalem. What can it be, what can it be that?
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: I would like to recommend portions of the article, “Three Murderous Myths: an Exploration of War and Empire” posted at http://peacehq.tripod.com/peaceporridge2/PP-38.html
as pertinent to this discussion. Sincerely, -Yusha
Dear yusha,
An introduction to the piece and source would be welcome.
Otherwise .. good night.
Hi Eurobelle,
link your articles.
I think the main reason why the US aids Israel is that America sees Israel as a gateway towards westernizing the Middle East. That being said, imo, Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel just like all whites should leave Africa. There will never be peace in The Middle East as long as Israel remains and The US keeps aiding the state. Israel’s existence also greatly fuels anti-semitism.
Zionism is a secular, imperialistic movement and has nothing to do with devout Judaism. Even orthodox jews don’t believe there should be an Israel.
As far as the Christian right-wingers that support Israel go, well they really don’t. Most of them think that all the Israelis will be destroyed in “The Final Days” after refusing to accept Christ. Pat Robertson and The 700 Club ‘aint their friend.
” If you believe in a “Higher Being” or God or whatever you want to call him/her/it then surely you all worship the same entity. ”
All monotheistic religions have a lot in common. Why are you assuming that we all believe in God?
I am so glad to be Australian where we only argue over which is the better footy team or, which car is better -Holden or Ford-.
Darryl - I’ve been to Australia, and I can tell you people are the same. People everywhere try to live normal lives and most people talk about superficial topics, like sports, the weather, cars, etc like you. Sad to see that you couldn’t care about world affairs or other people’s suffering. But I am glad to know that most Australians aren’t like you in that regard.
OK, I glanced.
Sick, sick, sick, sick
jb,
If you want read Sir Martin Gilbert’s Israel, or any other respectable history if Israel
” I think the main reason why the US aids Israel is that America sees Israel as a gateway towards westernizing the Middle East. ”
Not really. If Israel’s existence fuels anti-western sentiment as you say, then why would the US support it? Surely that would counter its goals of westernizing the Middle East. The US aids Israel out of sympathy towards the Jewish people.
“That being said, imo, Israel has not right to exist.”
That’s your opinion. The whole world, including the Arab League, recognizes the need for both an Israeli and Palestinian state living side by side in peace. Whether or not you consider a country the right to exist doesn’t matter because if it exists, it exists. You are a bit too simplistic.
“The Jews should all leave Israel just like all whites should leave Africa”
I agree with you that the US causes much strife in today’s world. Along your argument, maybe you should leave the US, and perhaps that might solve things.
“There will never be peace in The Middle East as long as Israel remains and The US keeps aiding the state.
Israel’s existence also greatly fuels anti-semitism. ”
So naive. Israel fuels anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitism has been around a lot longer than the modern state of Israel. The world’s Jewish population was desacrated in WWII. How much more could anti-Semitism be fuelled after that? Anti-Semitism exists today because people of people like you that
hate Jews.
jb,
If you want read Sir Martin Gilbert’s Israel, or any other respectable history if Israel
I have read his books. I am from Israel I have read countless books on the history of Israel. Lol
Ron,
I shouldn’t even bother responding to you because you are a blatant anti-Semite, but I think there’s a need because there are hundreds of absent-minded people out there like yourself.
There is no such thing as a Jew/Palestinian conflict. It’s known as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just because somebody is Jewish doesn’t mean they live in Israel.
“Before the 9/11 tragedy, I knew very little about the jew/Palestinian conflict and not much about jews and Palestinians either.”
Before 9/11 you knew nothing. And today, almost 6 years later in May 2007, you still know very little. Sad!! So you think by looking in your 1980 edition of an Encylopaedia you know can self claim expertise on such a complex issue?
The name Palestine was given to the area by the Romans. It has always been known to Jews as Eretz Israel. People call places different names and such designated names are bound to change. If you think the plot of land you’re sitting on will still be called the USA two-thousand years from now, the odds are against you.
I wish you the best luck in your “research.” In terms of your racism, I don’t know what to say. Seek councelling.
“Not really. If Israel’s existence fuels anti-western sentiment as you say, then why would the US support it?”
The US does all sorts of things that fuel anti-American sentiment. But they don’t care because it makes them money not to mention creates new enemies which gives them an excuse to go on more military adventures.
“Surely that would counter its goals of westernizing the Middle East.”
No, not really. They want to help Israel expand and force all the Arabs out. All the easier to get that oil.
“The US aids Israel out of sympathy towards the Jewish people.”
Bah. Yeah sure, a bunch of right-wing WASPS really care about Jews. Doesn’t Buchanan support Israel? Is he a friend of the jews?
“That’s your opinion. The whole world, including the Arab League, recognizes the need for both an Israeli and Palestinian state living side by side in peace.”
It doesn’t mean they are right. Yeah I’m sure they’ll make great neighbors.
“Whether or not you consider a country the right to exist doesn’t matter because if it exists, it exists. You are a bit too simplistic.”
I think it’s a bit simplistic to say, “Hey, we’re Jews. We’re God’s Chosen People…and you’re not! Get the heck out!”
“I agree with you that the US causes much strife in today’s world. Along your argument, maybe you should leave the US, and perhaps that might solve things.”
I have thought of leaving the US.
“So naive. Israel fuels anti-Semitism?”
Absolutely. Do you think the Arabs hate the Jews just ’cause they’re different than they are?
“Anti-Semitism has been around a lot longer than the modern state of Israel.”
No kidding. And Israel keep scratching that that boil.
“The world’s Jewish population was desacrated in WWII.”
No kidding. And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what’s going on in Israel for a long time.
“How much more could anti-Semitism be fuelled after that?”
Oh I think it could be worse than that.
“Anti-Semitism exists today because people of people like you that
hate Jews.”
LOL. I saw that one comin’. Criticize Israel and be labeled an “anti-semite”. It’s a familiar tactic. I guess Noam Chomsky is an anti-semite also. Ooops. Wait. He’s a jew too.
Will Eisner and Stan Lee were/are jews also. I’d better burn all my Spirit hardcovers and my Marvel comics.
Uh-oh Jack Kirby was a jew.
Neturei Karta must be anti-semites also.
I think it’s a bit simplistic to say, “Hey, we’re Jews. We’re God’s Chosen People…and you’re not! Get the heck out!”
“And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what’s going on in Israel for a long time. ”
Criticize Israel and be labeled an “anti-semite”.
That is anti-Semitic because you are not criticising Israel, you are making a derogatory statement about the Jewish people. You are faulting every single Jewish person on the planet. Nobody ever said “we’re Jews. Get the heck out!” Don’t know where you got that one.
You’re right. Noam Chomsky is obviously not anti-Semitic. That would be sad if he was since he is Jewish. I haven’t heard him talk about Jews the way you do. I agree with much of what he says. It’s perfectly fine to criticise Israel.
But anyway I saw your myspace and you’re one nasty fuck!! So I can see how things might not be screwed on right in your brain
“That is anti-Semitic because you are not criticising Israel, you are making a derogatory statement about the Jewish people. You are faulting every single Jewish person on the planet. Nobody ever said “we’re Jews. Get the heck out!” Don’t know where you got that one.”
That’s essentially what’s going on in Israel.
I’m not demonizing jews. Stop it. You know that. Zionism is the problem.
“You’re right. Noam Chomsky is obviously not anti-Semitic. That would be sad if he was since he is Jewish. I haven’t heard him talk about Jews the way you do. I agree with much of what he says. It’s perfectly fine to criticise Israel.”
How do I talk about jews? I don’t hate them, and you know that.
“But anyway I saw your myspace and you’re one nasty fuck!! So I can see how things might not be screwed on right in your brain.”
A personal attack. How nice.
“How do I talk about jews? I don’t hate them, and you know that”
No I don’t know that. I don’t know anything about you. Nor do I want to!! I am just reading what you said.
By the way, how is saying “Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust” not anti-Semitic? You’re not saying” Israel is hiding behind the Holocaust,” you’re saying the Jews are. There’s a difference. Neturei-Carta would not say something like that.
I think it’s disgusting Myspace lets people your age register. You say you’re 33 but I can’t tell from the skin head. I’d place you around 40 something. You’re probably some weird pedophile stalking teenage girls online. I hope that’s not actually your real picture because I don’t know how anybody could have the balls to put something that ugly on their profile. That’s enough to break a monitor.
“No I don’t know that. I don’t know anything about you. Nor do I want to!! I am just reading what you said.
By the way, how is saying “Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust” not anti-Semitic?”
I said in regards to Israel. Yes a lot of them do that. They use the Holocaust as an excuse to persecute the Palestinians. I didn’t say ALL jews do that. Not all jews believe that what’s going on there is right.
“You’re not saying” Israel is hiding behind the Holocaust, you’re saying the Jews are. There’s a difference. Neturei-Carta would not say something like that.”
Ok then, Israel. I apologize. But aren’t Israelis jews?
“I think it’s disgusting Myspace lets people your age register. You say you’re 33 but I can’t tell from the skin head. I’d place you around 40 something.”
What? Oh please. I am 33. I can scan a birth certificate if you like.
“You’re probably some weird pedophile stalking teenage girls online.”
I have never contacted anyone under 18. Most of the people I’ve met and conversed with are over 23. Please. Stop with the Dateline paranoia and the insults.
“I hope that’s not actually your real picture because I don’t know how anybody could have the balls to put something that ugly on their profile. That’s enough to break a monitor.”
Again, another personal attack. Aren’t we getting off-topic here anyway? Is this about my looks or about Israel?
And btw, I am not a skinhead or neo-nazi or anything like that. If I was being inflammatory, I apologize. If anything, part of the reason I am against Israel is because I am concerned about jews. I mean, they’re surrounded by people who hate them. And it’s not an irrational hatred unfortunately.
Look I know this is an emotional topic, and Lord knows that the jews have been through hell also. But that doesn’t excuse what they’re doing to the Middle East.
I’ll also say that this is a reason why many people don’t criticize Israel. They’re afraid of being branded as anti-semites. And people often bring up the Holocaust, as if that genocide exempts Jews/Israel from criticism. That’s what I meant about hiding behind the Holocaust.
When you say “the Jews are hiding behind the Holocaust” you are not criticising Israel the country or its government, you are criticising Jews. Period. If that’s what you meant about hiding behind the Holocaust, then why did you say it in that way? If people are afraid about being anti-Semitic then they shouldn’t make anti-Semitic statements. Criticism of Israel is not the same thing as criticism of Jews.
Yes many Israelis are Jewish, but over one fifth are Arab, Muslim, Christian, and Druze. So you can’t say that Israelis and Jews are synonymous because they aren’t. The MK in this article is Christian and Arab, but also Israeli. These people are citizens and vote.
Please spare me the “concerned about Jews.” Obviously you aren’t because you say that “Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel.” In essence, you discount Jews and their history by denying the right to self determiniation and by denying their link to the land.
One country invading another and making life difficult for the original inhabitants. So what’s new. My forefathers did it and I have no doubt that my forefathers forefathers did it and, as I am of Irish decent, know for a fact that it has been done to my forefathers. Heck I watched a program on TV the other day which had one group of chimpanzees making a raid into another groups territory to kill and eat them and possibly increase their territory.
For 50 years I thought the problems in Ireland would never be resolved. Goes to show the saying “Time heals all wounds” does apply.
I do know, debating/arguing about it on this forum will not resolve the conflict that unfortunately currently exists and will only serve to divide opinions further.
As I said. I am so glad to be Australian and distant from the problems that both sides are experiencing. Unfortunately, history indicates that Australia will suffer the same problems in the future.
“I do know debating/arguing about it on this forum will not resolve the conflict that unfortunately currently exists and will only serve to divide opinions further.”
What is wrong with debate? Of course debating here won’t resolve the conflict. If anything, by not voicing any concern one does just as much farm.
As I said. I am so glad to be Australian and distant from the problems that both sides are experiencing.
Yeah, that basically sums up the reason why conflicts continue. As long as you are rich and happy in your bubble far away from everything, you have nothing to worry. So you do nothing.
“history indicates that Australia will suffer the same problems in the future.”
History doesn’t indicate much about the future. What people do has more of an impact than what happened in the past. Australia won’t suffer the same problems if people do something about it, instead of reminding themselves how “lucky” they are to be far away from strife.
*harm
“When you say “the Jews are hiding behind the Holocaust” you are not criticising Israel the country or its government, you are criticising Jews.”
Ok I’m criticizing Jews then. Is that a bad thing? Besides, you’d think that after experiencing discrimination themselves that they’d know better.
“Period. If that’s what you meant about hiding behind the Holocaust, then why did you say it in that way?”
I dunno man. Maybe you’re just overly sensitive and looking for anti-semitism so as to make the opposition look bad.
Is it offensive to regard Nazis as Germans? Colonialists as whites?
“If people are afraid about being anti-Semitic then they shouldn’t make anti-Semitic statements.”
I didn’t say anything anti-semitic. It’s not as if I believe jews are money-hungry hooknosed monsters. I just don’t like that Jews are doing to Arabs and vice versa. However, Jews are killing a lot more Arabs than Arabs are Jews.
“Criticism of Israel is not the same thing as criticism of Jews.”
Well considering that’s who makes up most of the Israeli population…
“Yes many Israelis are Jewish, but over one fifth are Arab, Muslim, Christian, and Druze.”
That’s a relatively small number.
“So you can’t say that Israelis and Jews are synonymous because they aren’t.”
They kinda are. It was created for them.
“The MK in this article is Christian and Arab, but also Israeli. These people are citizens and vote.”
And they’re also being treated as second-class citizens by Jews.
“Please spare me the “concerned about Jews.” Obviously you aren’t because you say that “Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel.””
No I am concerned. I don’t want anymore Jews or Arabs to die. As long as Israel exists, death will continue to plague the Middle East.
“In essence, you discount Jews and their history by denying the right to self determiniation and by denying their link to the land.”
But didn’t most come there from Europe?
“Ok I’m criticizing Jews then. Is that a bad thing?”
Is being racist a bad thing? That’s for you to decide.
” dunno man. Maybe you’re just overly sensitive and looking for anti-semitism so as to make the opposition look bad. ” Is that a conspiracy? I don’t care how the opposition looks. You would be overly sensitive too if you were Jewish, but since you aren’t you can’t fully comprehend.
“I didn’t say anything anti-semitic.”
Your quote: And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what’s going on in Israel for a long time.
You said that you “didn’t say ALL jews do that.” Show me how that is not portrayed here?
But didn’t most come there from Europe?
Many came from Europe. But also other places. Approximiately 700,000 fled/were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries. Jews originally are a Levant civilization, ie. based in the Middle East. Jews were expelled from Palestine after the Romans.
“That’s a relatively small number.”
I don’t view 2 million people as a small number.
“They kinda are. It was created for them”
Kinda are? Kinda not. A Jewish person living in Nebraska is not Israeli.
“And they’re also being treated as second-class citizens by Jews. ”
How are Jews all over the world treating them as second-class citizens? I already mentioned that I’ve acknowledged the problems of sentiment towards Arab citizens in previous replies.
“I don’t want anymore Jews or Arabs to die. As long as Israel exists, death will continue to plague the Middle East.”
This shows you know little about the area. Both Arabs and Jews will achieve peace here. Making people “run away” or flee will not solve anything.
racism and anti-semitism are discriminatory behaviours but criticism is not discriminatory - it’s important to keep a clear mind on this or the debate becomes derailed
The days of Zionists controlling the U.S.’s foreign policy while silencing critics with the absurd blanket charge of “anti-semitism” might be at the beginning of its end. It will take a lot of free thinking people to make it happen, but I hope it does. The cruelty of Zionism may finally be seen for what it truly is - not a refuge for an oppressed people - but a ruthless imperial conquest, done under the banner of religion (and largely with American money and political capital). Zionists are a cancer, plain and simple.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists, so I resent the ramblings about “the Jew” above. Such bigotry is dangerous and simple-minded. Separate “Zionism” from “Judaism,” and again from the Jewish people. They are not the same things. Many of the commentors above would do well to understand that.
psychos talking to themselves
jb,
If you want read Sir Martin Gilbert’s Israel, or any other respectable history if Israel
I have read his books. I am from Israel I have read countless books on the history of Israel. Lol
I am glad you still can laugh
thinking and remembering is gone
“The Jews should all leave Israel just like all whites should leave Africa.”
Where should they go? Most of them were born there, just like you were born in the US. Why should they be punished for the crimes of their ancestors? Do you feel the same way about whites in America? If so, why are you still there?
jb88gogg,
sorry- you seemed to be agreeing with your Israeli compatriot, eurobelle re. suggesting that the figure of 700,000 Palestinian refugees in 1948, was concocted. I’m glad you are not racist like Golda Meir, who suggested that Palestinians don’t exist, or like Avigbor Lieberman who wants to ‘transfer’ the rest of Arab citizenry out of Israel. It is a pity that the rest of the Israel state has not also officially recognized the historical injustice that was done to the Palestinians and expressed its sorrow for their tragedy, their suffering and losses.
You said you appreciate Noam Chomsky and agree with much of what he says. I recommend a recent book of his- ‘Perilous Power-The Middle East and US Foreign Policy’. Page 160-1 essentially agrees with Bishara and Jimmy Carter in suggesting there is a form of apartheid operating in Israel. One rule for Jews and one for Arabs. Also, can I conduct a poll and ask if you and Eurobelle, “Would refuse to live next to an Arab?” and “When was the last time you had an Arab friend around for a cuppa?” as per Mr Bishara’s essay. Regards.
Nor Vegan,
Excuse me which crimes are talking?
It’s truly a place where illiterate psychos meet.
Talking to them doesn’t make sense
Enjoy your sick, sick, sick world.
It is conservatively estimated that from between 1492-1900 more than 500 million Native Americans were killed (or died as a result) of and by European invaders. In fact the oldest continuously occupied city in the USA is Santa Fe, N.M. originally settled by Ashkanazi Jews who gladly participated in the genocide while helping to eradicate the Native Americans as aid de camp to the Christian Europeans. This would make the slaughter of so many Native Americans pale in comparison to the “Jewish Holocaust”.
So now since 1948 the Jews claim Palestine in the exact manner as the USA illegally claims several million square miles of US Territory. Have they elected to compensate the Palestinians for the illegal seizure of their lands? Not any more than the USA has paid compensation to the Native Americans, in fact the US Gov claims the compensation rate to be 10 Billion which is a stupendously ridiculous figure. But they also claim they “cannot find the money”. If the formation of modern Israel was to prevent another holocaust, then how do they justify the wholesale theft of Palestine, which could only be named “geographic holocaust”
By the way, the Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Romans after three rebellions which broke treaties the Jews had with Rome, for 5oo years no Jew was allowed into Jerusalem but once per year. Breaking treaties—-does that sound familiar?
No sooner do you (or any other Jew) begin to believe that you are one of the chosen one’s—than you begin to treat the rest of us like you ARE one of the chosen one’s.
I have visited the Jewish Holocaust center in DC, but have not heard of one in Jerusalem dedicated to the Native Americans—yet the Israeli state receives billions of aid from the USA, where much of that money comes from the thefts by the US Government of Native American natural resources. I am sure that Yahweh is very proud of his chosen ones. If I were a Jew I would be ashamed, but then when you are one of the chosen ones, you do not need to be ashamed of anything you do.
I do not believe that those of us who do not believe in the mean, vindictive,jealous weak God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims should resist the inevitable, just wait awhile and those fools will kill each other off.
I will be one of those who crawls out of the ruble……………will you?
Comanche
Well, illiterate …
Jews are native in Israel, you illiterate …
I didn’t know people can live on such level of knowledge
You defend Indians because they are native and the victims,
but you attack Jews because they are native and the victims.
Your brain computer is out of order.
Israel has the MOST rights for its minorities than its neighbors. Has the BEST conditions for women in the whole ME.
And apartheid was/is inherent in Islamic Law, what the anti-Israel types are trying to impose. Read up on Dhimmitude.
What rights have the Palestinians in south Lebanon, Gaza, and West Bank, where Israel likes to periodically cull the population? Remember the cluster bombs are still going off in Lebanon. Remember the “mistaken” rocketting of the Palestinian family on a Gaza beach last year. And the “best” conditions for women - like for pregnant women trying to get to hospital but having to give birth at the roadside, while waiting hours at Israeli checkpoints - and sometimes dying there. Check out some UN or Amnesty International reports, or the leading article in Commondreams today. Perhaps our erudite Eurobelle can quit the abuse and read these too. Add to that “Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee”.
“Where should they go? Most of them were born there, just like you were born in the US. Why should they be punished for the crimes of their ancestors?”
Because they’re still complicit in the crime.
“Do you feel the same way about whites in America?”
There are times that I do.
“If so, why are you still there?”
I’m not sure where I would go.
“Is being racist a bad thing? That’s for you to decide.”
Is it racist to criticize white America? I don’t think I am being racist. I do not hate Jews. I do not think that they control the world or anything silly like that. I just think that they’re giving the Palestinians a raw, raw deal. If anyone here is being racist, it’s them.
I also am not one of those people that the US’ support of Israel is part of some sort of powerful Jewish lobby. The US doesn’t really care about Jews. We’re just defending you because of our strategic influences. Our presence shakes the beehive also.
“Is that a conspiracy?
Of course not. I don’t believe in a Jewish conspiracy.
“I don’t care how the opposition looks.”
I think you do.
“You would be overly sensitive too if you were Jewish, but since you aren’t you can’t fully comprehend.”
Well you got me there. It’s just that you would think that since Jews know how it feels to be oppressed, that they wouldn’t do it to other people.
“And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what’s going on in Israel for a long time.
You said that you “didn’t say ALL jews do that.” Show me how that is not portrayed here?”
I was referring to Jews in Israel and abroad. Not all Jews support what’s going on there. I know that.
“But didn’t most come there from Europe?
Many came from Europe.”
But that was when the state was formed right?
“But also other places. Approximiately 700,000 fled/were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries. Jews originally are a Levant civilization, ie. based in the Middle East. Jews were expelled from Palestine after the Romans.”
But the biggest influence was from Europe right?
I don’t view 2 million people as a small number.
“Kinda are? Kinda not. A Jewish person living in Nebraska is not Israeli.”
Actually Israel considers those jews in Kansas to be automatic citizens. Anyone who is Jewish can walk into Israel and be considered a citizen. The state itself is defined as Jewish.
“How are Jews all over the world treating them as second-class citizens?”
Did you read the article? I also didn’t say that all jews treat arabs as second class citizens. Just the ones in Israel.
“I already mentioned that I’ve acknowledged the problems of sentiment towards Arab citizens in previous replies.”
But it’s not just sentiment. It’s been proven that jews have more rights in Israel than anyone else. It is a Jewish state.
“This shows you know little about the area.”
I know enough to know that the Palestinians are getting the shaft.
“Both Arabs and Jews will achieve peace here.”
Eh, I hope so, but I am skeptical.
Btw, I don’t mean to ignore the US role in all of this. We need to stop meddling over there as well.
“Making people “run away” or flee will not solve anything.”
Actually I think that it will. Everytime Israel is attacked, they retaliate and the cycle just continues, and the US keeps enabling it all.
I apologize if I offended anyone who is jewish. I don’t think jews are evil or anything like that, and my criticism of them is based mainly on how they treat arabs in the ME.
I also strongly resent being made out to be a Nazi and insulted beacause of my remarks. I just don’t like seeing jews getting a free pass in regards to Israel because of what was done to them in the past. Jews have been victims throughout history no doubt. But I think in this case, they are the victimizers.
That’s not to condone violence on either side. When Arabs attack Jews, they only exacerbate the problem.
Yes, iwarrior,
I am touched.
Such a nice, a caring individual
-There is slavery in Sudan
-There was Katrina in this country
-Most Arab states are police states with torture
-Palestinians’ sickly rich and powerful Arab cousins
want to avoid any improvement of their conditions to have a political issue
-etc.
but our warm and fuzzy iwarrior cares about Arabs. Sure
Pure evil
Eurobelle,
“our warm and fuzzy iwarrior cares about Arabs. Sure
Pure evil”
You are sounding very racist about Arabs. You are convincing me more and more that Bishara has cause to be worried about Israel’s civil rights. The Nazis were into describing the Jews as pure evil too, weren’t they?
Yes, I really care what you “think.”
Manipulate someone else.
It’s a historical fact that militant antisemites are usually paid for those in power to divert attention.
Are you paid by Saudis? Exxon? Larouche? someone else?
In other words, who is paying for your “thinking.”
Yes, it’s a rhetorical question.
Well, I guess our “compassionate antisemites” have to cover a number of forums to get paid.
Rodney King: “Can’t We All Just Get Along”
Everybody is pulling up past history and slinging mud, feels hopeless.
In the Here and Now:
The Jewish culture one of the oldest still established today; needed a home. England turned over what is now Israel and got the hell out soon after because of terror tactics used against them. I am happy to see their people back together.
The Palestinian People living in the area moved (fled) east of Temple Mount. According to the agreement after WWII.
Both parties see temple mount as a sacred place in their culture.
At one time there was very little animosity after this agreement; with people crossing the border much the same as the El Paso/Juarez border crossing USED to be.
It was that damn 6-day war! When settlements started going in everything went wrong!
All said as Comanche said there is a lot of theft of land going on with no compensation and a lot kill’n.
If ya’ll are for justice, show that you are rational and civil!
People of the world are suffering everywhere, and nobody will open their eyes! We argue about the past, self-centered people trying to sound important.
All ethnic groups should have a home and quit trying to out populate the other!
I wish for the day when Israelis and Palestinians can both can visit Temple Mount, each person on a journey to understand the future!
Stop trying to demonize iwarrior. Too many commentors here are trying too hard to label him (or her) as an anti-semite, merely to discredit iwarrior, force him/her into defensive mode, and derail discussion about the issues presented in the article above. That technique may work in the American media and pop culture, but it only wastes space in a forum like this.
In fact, all ad-hominim attacks are pointless here. Focus on the issues. Those of you who are trying to do that, thank you.
Yes, the issue is antisemitism of iwarrior
You can’t demonize the demon.
It’s a usual technique of Larouchmen to attack those who
describe antisemites as antisemites.
Go and use brownshirt intimidating techniques somewhere else.
This a progressive venue, not a gathering place for thugs who clearly try to sabotage.
Bill, can I suggest you use fewer beautiful words
and give less support to racists.
You endorsement of Comanche is as repulsive as he is.
One doesn’t have to finish a single post by iwarrior to see
an antisemite. Apparently, many other people have realize it
as fast as I did.
Bill, about the Jewish culture …
Jews never totally left their land, including Jerusalem,
except for a brief period in the 4th century when a good, very good Christian Helene, mother of a good, very good Christian Constantine expelled them, because being a good Christian she wanted their land for herself.
Jews returned to their sacred land already during the reign of Constantine, and a small Jewish community has been always present
Eurobelle, you abuse and lash out at everyone, (except jb88gogg who also is a Jewish Israeli) and don’t address any of the issues in Bishara’s essay. It is you who seems to be guarding this essay like a IDF soldier to obfuscate intelligent commentary. At the start you said the essay wasn’t worth reading - have you read it yet?
I think it was Naomi Klein who warned that people who deliberately try to muddy the discourse are more wicked than those telling straightout lies.
markbinoz,
I actually addressed a couple of issues (read my posts carefully), and I don’t to have to deal with the bastard more.
This is the advantage of knowledge that one can separate lies, truth, pretension easily and fast.
If you so interested in the issue, I suggest you actually
familiarize yourself with the history of Jews, Israel and Arabs, then I might be willing to talk with you on the subject. But now, excuse me.
In a different thread, someone criticized American liberals for some other issues.
I just add something else.
Some of them - whose who
don’t see people dying in the street
don’t see people dying on the roofs of New Orleans
who abuse their underlings and co-workers
who spend their days kissing up and kicking down
who ignore Darfur
who ignore torture in Egyptian prisons
who ignore/benefit from sweatshops
etc.
but are so eager to feel for Palestinians - it costs nothing
are probably pure evil.
I wasn’t born in this country, and it’s not my tradition to
nice, nice, nice to evil. Very few things are more despicable than phony, hypocritical “the fact that we disagree, doesn’t mean …. ” No, I don’t respect everyone,
I actually despise a number of despicable human beings. Bully someone else.
Imagine an article which would start with some ethnic slur.
Would you, liberal hypocrites, bully a person of a minority
to read and analyze nicely, politely, smilingly, or would you just apologize endlessly?
It isn’t exactly the same, but close.
Buzz off, illiterate hypocrites who can’t type a sentence without some crutches: “Rodney King said, Naomi said”
So what? Very convincing.
Eurobelle, I find you to be highly self-righteous. You are always acting as if you are more moral than everyone else. Everyone is evil but you, eh?
I am not an anti-semite. Many of my heroes are jews. Like I said in my other posts, jews have been through hell also. However, that doesn’t make what they’re doing to Palestinians correct. They’re exhibiting the same types of attitudes that they have bared the brunt of from other peoples.
“I just add something else.
Some of them - whose who
don’t see people dying in the street
don’t see people dying on the roofs of New Orleans
who abuse their underlings and co-workers
who spend their days kissing up and kicking down
who ignore Darfur
who ignore torture in Egyptian prisons
who ignore/benefit from sweatshops
etc.”
I do not ignore any of those things. You are changing the subject. Perhaps we should ignore what’s going on in Israel? Is that what you want? To ignore Israel’s atrocities?
“but are so eager to feel for Palestinians”
I think what both sides do to each other over there is wrong. Most people seem to act as if the jews are the good guys and that the arabs are the villians.
“There is slavery in Sudan
-There was Katrina in this country
-Most Arab states are police states with torture”
No kidding. But the jews are all good and wonderful right?
Every culture, religion, nation, etc. has its swamp. Israel is Judaism’s swamp.
Btw, in this country it is far more acceptible nowadays to demonize arabs than it is jews. Jews aren’t the ones being profiled and jailed and viewed as terrorists. Islam is seen as a religion and wild-eyed fanaticism. You can’t say the same about Judaism. So, yeah, I may sympathize more with arabs than jews right now. It doesn’t mean that I hate jews. These accusations of anti-semitism are a huge reason why we don’t see a lot of constructive dialogue about this issue. Even Noam Chomsky, a jew critical of Israel, has been accused ot being in bed with Neo-Nazis because of his views. It’s insanity.
What’s going on over there is imperialism. Anyone who can’t see that is blind.
I really don’t even know why I care about what people think of me anymore. Everyone seems to hate me for some reason. I’m either too left-wing or not left enough for some people. I’m either a self-hating white man/”race traitor” (I get annoyed with racist remarks and favor reparations among other things) or a white supremacist to others (I don’t like whitey-bashing either, listen to heavy metal, don’t co-opt black culture much, think that part of the problems in the black community are from within, etc.). I’m anti-American (I don’t like our foreign policy and don’t like how we treat our own citizens among many other things), sexist (’cause I criticize women from flaunting their sexuality), a “homo” (I’m not that into sports and criticize men for seeing women as mere ‘poon’, etc.) a “loser” (I get that a lot from the capitalists for not having what they supposedly do, you know, the hot wife, the house, the cushy job), a class wafarist (class is still taboo). Oh yeah, I’m a child molester too since I’m on Myspace.
Everyone’s got some reason to hate me. Left or right. Black or white. Male or female. Christian or Jew or Muslim. American or not.
Whatever.
Pure evil
“Israel is Judaism’s swamp.”
Do you want me to have conversation with this human waste,
nice liberals?
In your dreams, bastards
Correction:
“Imagine an article which would start with some ethnic slur.
Would you, liberal hypocrites, bully a person of a minority
to read and analyze nicely, politely, smilingly with some KKK-member, or would you just apologize endlessly?”
It isn’t exactly the same, but close.
Eurobelle, you’re being no better by calling me “human waste”. I suppose the Palestinians are “human waste” to you.
Since 2000…
118 Israeli kids vs. 934 Palestinian kids dead.
1021 Israelis vs. 4100 Palestinians dead.
7633 Israelis vs. 31302 Palestinians injured.
The US gives Israel 7 million dollars per day, which is more aid than any other country gets. Palestinians get nothing. Meanwhile, people in the US go w/o food. shelter, and health care. It seems that Bush cares more about jews than poor blacks in NOLA let alone anyone else in the country.
4200 Palestinian homes destroyed. Israeli homes? 0
40% of Palestinians are jobless. Only 9% of Israelis are.
Palestinians are not, those who manipulate and use them probably are, you most certainly are
iwarrior and the Black people
50% of young Black people are unemployed:
iwarrior - 0% of unemployment
hundreds of Black people died on roofs of New Orleans
0 iwarrior died on a roof of New Orleans
etc.
MILLIONS of Black people are in prisons
0 iwarrior in prison
+ there are tens/hundreds? of thousands of all sorts of minorities around the world who unlike the Palestinians don’t have the Saudies as cousins, and who in spite of the some insanely rich and powerful Arabs’ deliberate efforts to keep the Palestinians in their circumstances, have much, much, much worse conditions
iwarrior’s interest %
The face of evil
Eurobelle, you are working just according to program.
“By labelling Palestinians as terrorists, the Israelis were describing their enemies as evil rather than hostile. If the Palestinians could be portrayed as mindless barbarians, surely no sane individual would dare regard their political claims as serious. Anyone who expressed sympathy for Palestinians was evidently anti-Semitic - and therefore not just anti-Israel or anti-Jewish, but pro-Nazi - which no right-thinking individual would wish to be. Anyone who even suggested that the Israelis might be wrong in their war against the Palestinians could be castigated in the same way.Do you think Hitler was right?… But if the world believed that the Palestinians were EVIL - that they represented sin in its crudest form - then the dispute did not exit. The battle was between right and wrong, David and Goliath, Israel and the ‘terrorists’. The tragedy of the Israelis was that they came to believe this myth.” Quote from Robert Fisk (1990/2001), trying to understand the rape and massacre of approx. 1500 unarmed men, women and children under Israeli supervision in Sabra and Shatilla over 2-3 days. He was one of the first journalists to enter the camps before the bulldozers had finished burying them (Caterpillar?) (and documents it in Tell Me No Lies-Investigative Journalism and Its Triumphs edited by J. Pilger). As you say- Pure evil indeed.
You say you have done a degree in Jewish history, but you have missed the great Jewish liberal contribution to world history.
As Bishara says “The Israeli authorities are trying to intimidate not just me but all Palestinian citizens of Israel. But we will not be intimidated.” Neither should the rest of the world be intimidated by the childish name- calling (”repulsive”, “illiterate psychos” and “human waste”) to prevent intelligent discussion.
Eurobelle-you have actually done a great job in supporting Bishara’s thesis. You should have left the defence of Israel to jb88gogg. He was more intelligent, but I suppose he doesn’t work weekends.
Mark,
I’ll stop here. I am not reading your post.
I didn’t spend decades of my life studying, to waste the remaining time on senseless “conversation” with psychos, paid misfits, and barely literate individuals.
This forum is addictive, but I am imposing self-discipline.
Find suckers somewhere else.
Wow! Forum really do bring the worst out of people! Basically you hide behind your nickname and the shadows start to dance!!
The hypocrites are most of the forumites in here who give self-righteous speeches about what the Israelis and Palestinians should do, when only negativity and accusations are expressed.
I wonder if one could send viruses to other forumites, what would the consequences be!?
In any case, it is clear that from the persepctive of people living abroad, Israel is the obvious evil and Palestinians are the obvious victims. The actual reality is usually somewhere in the middle rather than in the extremes.
People blame the US support of Israel, but never mention the 22 Arab countries supporting Palestinians!
As far as I can see, both have blood on their hands, both manipulate and do what they can to win the struggle, both want to have peace ultimately.
It is a basica psychlogical fact that we need our villains… This is why we get so attached to myths. Yet, ultimately, truth will prevail regardless of our limited perspectives.
As for bishara (that was the topic wasn’t it?)
As much as he is something close to a traitor and a liar, he probably thought he was doing the right thing. He’s a human being caught up in a very complex existence; this confuses the mind.
God will know what the appropriate response shouldbe for him.
I guess I’m evil. Oh well. Self-righteous too. If you look through unbiased eyes you can see who the problem is. You don’t have to be an anti-semite to not support Israel. And not supporting Israel doesn’t mean you hate jews and want them to die. It’s the west that helps stir up Israel’s enemies. Doesn’t Bush want to attack Iraq now? You think that’s good for Israel? Is having a Jewish state in the Middle East even good for world jewry?
“You should have left the defence of Israel to jb88gogg. He was more intelligent, but I suppose he doesn’t work weekends.”
Why? He insults people too. There’s no defending Israel. That’s not to say that the Palestinians haven’t committed atrocities also, but the Israelis have committed far more. It’s not the jews’ land. Israel is a Western creation. The West wants the Middle East to look like Israel.
Let’s also not overlook racism in all of this. Don’t they have purity laws in Israel? Aren’t most Israelis of European descent? Doesn’t this look familiar? South Africa? Hello? Israelis are white Palestinians are brown. Hmmmm.
Dear iwarrior and Aladdin,
thanks for seeking sense and dialogue. You’re right, iwarrior- jb88gogg goes for the man when they can’t play the game with his “nasty fuck” comment-I hope there are some Israelis who can represent themselves better. Also, only a ‘good Jewish person’ can use the word ‘Jew’, or ‘Zionist’ or ‘Israel’ or ‘Judaism’ without reflection, and the good Jewish person usually does not mean the Jewish Independent Voices in the UK and Australia for example.
I feel a two state solution is unworkable because, with America’s sponsorship, Israel will continually strangle any Palestinian rump state. Likewise, there will be Palestinian hostility as long as the injustices they have suffered (and are suffering), are not addressed. Gandhi saw the split of Pakistan from India a failure and for a supposed western liberal democracy to embrace religion and cultural background as the basis of citizenship seems ridiculous. We want a man, or woman, judged by ‘the content of their character not the colour of their skin’ or their private religion.
PJD above liken the situation to the religious exceptionalism of the US or South Africa, but the latter is working it out and eliminating apartheid. Why can’t Israel? But the current government seems intent on creating Bantustans.
Bishara could have been a great catalyst for a transition to a one state solution and therefore it is disappointing he has had to flee. I suspect Olmert and the rest of his government in crisis would have loved to have him as the sacrificial lamb for their failing in the attack on Lebanon, yet Bishara I’m sure would have given them the best advice i.e. tell the Americans that Israel will not be a pawn in their Middle East power plays.
Aladdin - you say Bishara ‘fucked up big time’ and close to being a traitor and liar. I would have thought that the whole Knesset fucked up big time and are liars and traitors (and sex-crazed fraudsters judging from the newspapers) to Israelis.
Thanks markbinoz.
I know I said that I don’t care whether or not people think I’m an anti-semite. But I do. I’ve had known too many jewish people in my life to hate them. Many of my favorite teachers from K-12 and even in college were jews. Like I alluded to before, I am a comics fan. Many of not most of my favorite characters were created by young jewish guys.
I just get angry when any group gets put on a pedestal to the point where they can do no wrong. And I think in regards to Israel, jews are an example of this.
I understand what the jews have been through. I have read Art Speigelman’s “Maus” as well as “The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion” in which comics artist Will Eisner completely takes apart that false piece of hate propaganda.
But dammit, why can’t people see just what the hell is going on in Israel? Here we have the formerly oppressed becoming the oppressor.
Again, I am sorry if I offended anyone. I’m not a jew-hater, and I didn’t mean to come off that way. It’s not like the US has a sterling record regarding our treatment of jews or arabs either.
Israel is an abomination. If I were Palestinian of any religion I could never serve its government. It is the worst sort of state based on religion: it is an atheistic one. Therefore, an incendiary mix of God and State fuse to form the zionist filth’s fury.
iwarrior and his ilk will be pleased once Iran finally nukes Tel Aviv. And probably won’t feel guilty.
You would do best to take a holiday and stop concentrating your rage against Israel. I’m sure there are more important immediate problems in the US for you to work on.
Eurobelle! I refuse to respond to you! BUT I do read your responses and get what I can from them.
“iwarrior and his ilk will be pleased once Iran finally nukes Tel Aviv. And probably won’t feel guilty.”
I don’t want to see anyone get nuked, but if labeling me as an anti-semite makes you zionists feel better about Israel, then fine. If anything I am anti-zionism not an anti-semite. This sort of thing prevents productive dialogue from occurring.
Buh-bye.
quote from blackshiprgo
Israel is an abomination. If I were Palestinian of any religion I could never serve its government. It is the worst sort of state based on religion: it is an atheistic one. Therefore, an incendiary mix of God and State fuse to form the zionist filth’s fury.
—————————–
That is exactly why Bishara is a traitor. Noone blames him for not liking Israel, but if he doesn’t not agree with its existence, he should basically have the integrity not to join the Knesset. If you are part of the government, you don’t go have coffee with its most threatening ennemies and cheer them up. That makes him a scum bag, a liar, and the rest of it!
As for seeing Israel as an abomination… As I mentioned above we all need to create our villains and innocents. 2 cent human psychology.
Then one day, you start to actually think.
Hey Aladdin,
you are losing your cool. Gone has your voice of moderation, and now you say Bishara is definitely a liar and traitor, and throw “scumbag” in for good measure. Don’t let blackshiprgo get to you with his name-calling and let’s try talking sense.
You prejudge Bishara. I understand there is a Israeli media campaign to convict him already. With the report of Palestinians being routinely tortured in jail as well and none of the accusations against the security forces getting past the Israeli courts (read today’s article by Conal Urquhart on Commondreams), I would think he did the wise thing. He has already been shot by the Israel security forces in the past).
To quote Azmi Bishara’s brother Marwan (in his book Palestin/Israel-Peace or Apartheid,(2001) p36), “Israel is disturbed by Palestinians of the likes of Azmi Bishara -a candidate for prime minister in 1999-and Asil Assli, who both reject the undemocratic nature of Israel and refuse to compromise on their basic rights, but take their nationality and their citizenship seriously. Israeli officials and Labor Party leaders have long hoped that the Arabs ‘would remain hewers of wood’ and, therefore easy to control. In fact, they wished the Arabs could all just go away, disappear from Israel’s space, memory, and history. During the last 5 decades, the idea of transferring all the Palestinians has figured strongly in Zionist literatrure. Until recently over a third of Israelis wished their state would ‘encourage’ the Palestinians to leave… Almost a third of Israeli Jews support the obliteration of Palestinian citizens’ voting rights. Palestinians are tolerated only as long as they confine themselves to a narrow civil agenda and act as a reservoir of votes for Zionist parties. They are expected by the majority to know how to behave as loyal citizens of a state, that is not theirs, a state that occupies and wages a daily war on their fellow Palestinians over the hills. However, when they voice their political apprehension about state policy, especially with regard to the accupation, as did happen during the second Intifada, they are considered traitors by over 70% of Israelis, and 74% reckon is Israel would be better off without its Palestinian citizens”.
Well, its not the Intifada this time, but the moral defeat in Lebanon. A scapegoat is needed.
But guys like Bishara are needed to help in the transition to dismantle apartheid. Nelson Mandela and Xanana Guezmao (sp?) were once branded terrorists and reviled by the media but are now heroes. If South Africa can dismantle apartheid, why can’t Israel. Basic human rights are surely not negotiable. Israel agreed to Resolution 194 (allowing right of return of Palestinians) when it joined the UN in 1949. But soon after its admission to the international organization, Israel reneged on its position. Maybe it should start from scratch again.
This is really disappointing of Mr. Bishara. Why did he leave? Was his life really in danger? If it was not and even if he faced the prospect of being detained and wrongly accused, he should have stayed on to make his case. Look at another prisoner of conscience Mordechai Vanunu, he is looked upon as a hero and his continued detention make a mockery of the Israeli regime. I am not saying Mr. Bishara should be an example like Mr. Vanunu but if Israel cares about its image abroad, it wouldn’t do anything to threatened Mr. Bishara’s life. Drumed up charges will not stand even in Apartheid Israel. This open letter from Amman does little to advance the cause of the deprived in Israel. What is worse, the Arab community will now have one voice less in the knesset.