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TechnoratiCo-Authors Question Stand Alone Vote on National Single Payer
Dear Friends,
We thank you for your continued devotion to the
cause of health care for All Americans. We have worked together for
many years to write, promote and campaign for HR676, a single payer,
not for profit health care system. Your work, in communities across
America, has been instrumental in helping at least ten states create
single payer movements, with many more states to come.
Tomorrow, the House of Representatives is scheduled
to consider a single payer bill. As the two principal co-authors of the
Conyers single payer bill, we want to offer a strong note of caution
about tomorrow's vote.
The bill presented tomorrow will not be HR676. While
we are happy to relinquish authorship of a single payer bill to any
member who can do better, we do not want a weak bill brought forward in
a hostile climate to unwittingly accomplish what would be interpreted
as a defeat for single payer.
Here are the facts: There has been no debate in
Congress over HR676. There has not been a single mark-up of the bill.
Single payer was "taken off the table" for the entire year by the White
House and by congressional leaders. There has been no reasonable period
of time to gather support in the Congress for single payer. Many
members accepted a "robust public option" as the alternative to single
payer and now that has disappeared. The Congressional Budget Office
(CBO) has scored the bill scheduled for a vote tomorrow in a manner
which is at odds with many credible assumptions, meaning that it will
appear to cost way too much even though we know that true single payer
saves money since one of every three dollars in the health care system
goes to administrative costs caused by the insurance companies. Is this
really the climate in which we want a test vote?
While state single payer movements are already
strong, the national single payer movement is still growing. Many
progressives in Congress, ourselves included, feel that calling for a
vote tomorrow for single payer would be tantamount to driving the
movement over a cliff. The thrill of the vote would disappear quickly
when the result would be characterized not as a new beginning for
single payer but as an end. Such a result would be seen as proof that
Congress need not pay attention to efforts to restore in Conference
Committee the right of states to pursue single payer without fear of
legal attacks by insurance companies.
We are always grateful for your support. We are now
asking you to join us in suggesting to congressional leaders that this
is not the right time to call the roll on a stand-alone single payer
bill. That time will come. And when it does there will not be any doubt
of the outcome. This system of health care injustice will not be able
to endure forever. We are pledged to make sure of that.
Sincerely,
Congressmen John Conyers and Dennis Kucinich
52 Comments so far
Show AllRepublicans announced their own version of a Don’t Care for Health Plan. There was no provision in it for those who presently have no insurance. But, the party members touting it insist it is “more affordable” which therefore supposedly makes it more “accessible.” If it is true that cutting costs automatically increases coverage for those who will die without the care, then why are Republicans such pikers with the concept?
Even though the “argument” presented in the Republican news conference was no doubt just an insincere sound bite attempting to justify their attempts to defeat any genuine health care reform, let’s carry that out the Republican concept. Imagine what could be done if drug and health insurance companies were banned from advertising, banned from paying management more than, say, the President is paid, banned from paying commissions, banned from taking a higher profit percentage than, say, is given in Treasury bills, and of course banned from bribing politicians, I mean, from making campaign contributions. The savings would be somewhere between an instant 25% to possibly half that currently being paid by consumers toward profit driven health insurance.
Wait a minute. Come to think of it, we already have a highly successful program that has been doing just that. It’s called Medicare. Let’s take the Republicans at their word and expand it to its logical conclusion of Medicare for All. Forget the silly ineffective “public option” being peddled by some cowardly Democrats.
Some dismiss Medicare for all as the evil bugaboo “Socialism”? Have they forgotten though that is exactly how we already handle numerous other essential needs like fire protection, police protection, food safety protection, air and traffic protection? All of those are based on need, not who can pay for it. Every one of those are successful GOVERNMENT RUN programs proven over many decades to be far superior to relying on private companies who want the income, but not the expense of providing services. The goal of private health insurance companies is to only have as customers those who don’t need health care.
And, lest we forget, as long as we must rely on private insurance companies, we must accept that they can annually decide to cut off from health care any of us (except Congressmen) or the companies we work for or the state we live in at any time for any reason. Or, the private unregulated, profit driven, insurance companies can raise prices to whatever level they want for any reason which can amount to the same thing and effectively cut us off (except for Congressmen) when we lose our jobs or can no longer afford to pay it.
For those who say they don’t want “death panels” or anyone standing between them and their doctors, they should be seeking to ban insurance companies altogether. That’s where insurance companies plant their bureaucrats right now, between the doctors and their patients. Wouldn’t it be better to have a government bureaucrat who simply doesn’t care than a private bureaucrat who is paid a salary to find ways to minimize company pay outs.
It would be nice if some of the news media would actually analyze what is being claimed by the Congressmen and apply some common sense and research instead of being just PR agents for those in power and those wanting to replace them.
While the present Democrat Don’t Care for Health Plan is a timid ineffective pile of garbage, the Republican version of a Don’t Care for Health Plan is toxic waste. Scrap both. Skip the so-called “public option. Go straight to Medicare for All and for once, do the right thing for the American public. As to all the cowardly Democrats who refuse to do so, it will be time to scrap them at the next election.
The best thing that dennis and John could do for us is simply to get out of the Democratic Party. You just lend your fellow thugs more credibility by staying inside this corporate promotion land called the DP.
It is the Democratic Leadership Council Runs the Dem Party's Agenda, and not the "liberal-progressive" base. It is time that you all understand this. The Democratic Party has diminished the values and voices of its "liberal-progressive" base ever since it formed the Democratic Leadership Council.
And, yes, women have fell victim to the male-inspired Democratic Leadership Council. The sooner you all understand these realities and deal with it after confronting the facts, then you see why being a "liberal/progressive" Democrats now means very little.
The "liberal-progressive" rhetoric the Democratic Party uses on the talk shows and even that is less frequent that you all realize should tell you things which you are all intelligent enough to figure out.
The country has moved so far to the right that too many "liberals-progressives" think that conservative to moderate Democrats who oppose the far right Fascists of the GOP believe in liberalism or progressivism. NOT!!!!
I am an unabashedly Leftist Here and DO NOT LIKE THE DEMOCRATS appeasement, equivocation and sellout of leftist/progressive policies to the right wing Repukes.
From Gay Rights to Wage Earning/Jobs to Women’s Reproductive Health Issues, the Democrats now look to maintain their grip on power while compromising the core values of its leftist/progressive base.
The Democratic Party takes it leftist/progressive base for granted and when push comes to shove, goes with the Democratic Leadership Council agenda which is GOP-Lite, corporate centered, and favors a militarized foreign policy agenda built on “bipartisanship.”
Barack Obama will soon be sending over 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan, yet, the leftist/progressive base still fail to see the president as a center-right corporate-militarist leader of which he has proven to be. Obama will not be looking into signing any real international agreements to curb emissions. Obama is turning into a failure on environmental issues as well.
Obama and the Democratic Party today are closer to the Catholic Church and Christian Fundamentalists on issues of:
1. Women’s right to choose –Yes a WOMAN’S RIGHT TO CHOOSE WHAT SHE DOES WITH HER OWN BODY!!!!!!
2. Gay Rights – DADT, Gay Marriage – which Obama and the Democratic National Committee did nothing about in Maine last week, and supports the Defense of Marriage Act.
3. Democrats continue the big Spending on Defense Budgets and endless war funding.
OBAMA ia a CORPORATE WHORE!!!!
The DEMOCRATS are CORPORATE WHORES TOO!!!
East Coast Lefty 101 ,After torturing myself by listening to the last hours of the house debate and vote on the "wealth care bill" and the redundant anti-abortion provisions they added, I must agree completely with your assessment.With the exception of Barbara Lee,Dennis Kucinich,Weiner and a few others,or Sanders and Feingold in the Senate none of "our" government are very " progressive" by my definition.The very fact that the vote was sooo close is very scary.I don't hold out much hope for S703 or the prospect for any real improvement of the bill if passed .The D.L.C., Blue dogs,the whole party apparatus just serves to push the Dems to the right.We need public financing and election/ballot reform to make building a strong third party movement possible ,the system is rigged against it.
I think a lot of the GOP are downright evil,and the Dems evil "lite"(sic)they definitely need to wear the logos of their corporate sponsors on the their suits,they would look like a bunch of NASCAR drivers! peace
From a distance-
Difficult for a UK subject (alas not a citizen) to comment but it seems to me from what I have oberved of Kucinich that is is worthy of respect and worth listening to even if you disgree with him.
Seems to be a lot of name calling on this site , in my opinion a pointless excercise . Words are powful tools, use them well.
So Conyers, Kucinich, Weiner and Woolsey got bought off too. It's really that simple. The Pelosi Bill should be defeated and the progressives should do what they said they were going to do -- vote down anything that does not provide a public option for all, paid for by ending the Bush and Reagan tax cuts (and hopefully ending the deficit-geometrically rising, depression-sustaining, stupid useless wars.
Remember as horrible as Pelosi's Bill is (and it's beyond horrible) it will not raise us from being 31st in longevity and 37th in infant mortality despite spending more per person than any other industrialized country. Her Bill will be converted to Baucus with taxing "cadillac" plans (which are really bicycle plans) and an even more minimal public option.
And these useless thugs, Kucinich, Weiner, Conyers and Woolsey included, will vote for it and brag about it the best thing to come along since Teddy Roosevelt tried (for single-payer) a Century ago ("Peace in our time").
Kucinich and Conyers know this is the last shot and once Pelosicare goes through the House, the only thing that will come next is the Senate sellout that sells out even more than the Pelosi sellout. They know Pelosi going through the House is the death of single-payer. They know that after the 2010 elections the Dems will be lucky to be in the majority in both Houses and that now is the only time for change.
I wonder how much they got paid and how stupid they think we are. They remove their Bills for single-payer from consideration and pave the way for health care for the health/insurer-drug pusher bribers, at our expense. I hate they lied and think we're so stupid we believe them more than hating that single-payer won't be debated or fought for. Conyers is a blot on the progressive posse from which he came -- the best and most progressive group in US history. They are all rolling over in their graves at his sellout.
And Kucinich is doing what he's done all the time -- pushing the social democratic line to lure progressives into his thinking so he can tell them to vote Democratic in the end.
Somebody help me understand...
All of this is really so complicated.
Single-Payer? National healthcare plan? Whatever works, just get every man, woman, and child healthcare.
Let's just focus on the simple humanitarian notion - we all need healthcare.
Let's create a universal-full-access healthcare system we do not pay for. Instead of money, how about those who work for universal-full-access healthcare receive homes, food, clothes, and the necessities of life.
Let's staff this universal-full-access healthcare system with many, many unemployed people so as to make service quick and easy for the ill, and so as to provide livelihood for people with none. How about those who are serious about going into healthcare receive their full education with no money due out of pocket. A way to ensure that there will always be enough healthcare workers so we can all take care of ourselves.
Apart from food production and healthcare, what else is truly essential in life? With food and healthcare taken care of, we are free to devote energy in many wonderful directions toward a more beautiful world.
It is sickening to allow money to dictate what kind of healthcare delivery when people's very lives are at stake.
I am so tired of money anyways...money is just a tool of control. We run all around for our whole lives, trying to make money. Because if you don't, someone will come and take all of your things, and throw you out on the street. And you won't eat. Or when you get sick, if you have no money, then you just get sicker and die. Wow we don't tell the kids how the world really is do we? No one told me and now that I'm an "adult" I can really see the depravity.
What of art? Music? Conversation? Laughs with friends and family? What of real hard work, done well, in a spirit of respect, cooperation, not dominance, work that really creates an immediate tangible benefit for us all?
Wow, Christmas definitely came early... for the insurance companies. What a total bunch of bullshit! It is painfully obvious who butters politicians' bread. Fuck these people! It is time to boot all of them out of office!
'It is time to boot all of them out of office!" –(gracchus)
–Actually it is better to imagine a world where there is no 'office' to boot them out of. Both 'they' and the 'office' will no longer exist.
Move and think beyond the voting them 'in or out' of anything as that no longer matters. But you know that?
Your 'elections' don't matter.
You know that too.
–(Jill Bains)
I understand Congressmen Kucinich and Conyers concerns. However, I respectfully disagree. It is time to blow this "reform" of health care charade wide open. We have the count on the Goldstone report. If the count is almost identical on single payer, it will be another nail in the no voter's political future.
With all due respect, we need less talk and more voting of the congress. You are all intelligent people. The fact that you are surrounded by corruption argues against more talk.
Make the congress put it's mouth where it's corporate , corrupt money is over and over. Maybe the people will get it eventually.
Drop the pentagon budget by 90% and there will be no deficit and you'll have lots of money for health care for all.
Gentlemen,
This is time for YOU to act.
We did our part in 2008. We were fooled. We are paying more attention now and perhaps in 2010 things can be improved. For now, make the bastards go on the record. They'll have to declare a dictatorship to get around us in 2010.
The republican/democratic corporate party is DEAD. If it wants to rule after 2010, it will have to do it by force (and it won't go well for them).
Colchester, Vermont.
The Weiner Amendment did actually serve a good purpose. Although it never had a chance of passing, it's withdrawal provoked a good show of power and organization.
President Obama intervened to have it pulled the second time - and said he had not realized that the single-payer issue would be around for so long. We're not going away.
There's always the Senate - S 703 and the return of the Kucinich amendment to work with (that can be reinserted into the bill when the House/Senate bills are conformed).
Single payer advocates have a lot of work to do to let people know that the House and Senate bills will not help them, and may well do them a good deal of harm. There's nothing like good old-fashioned rabble-rousing.
This is the statement being released by Marilyn Clement's organization, Healthcare-Now! and signed by a number of other organizations:
--------------------
"On the eve of what could have been the first vote on single-payer legislation in our nation's history, we have just learned that because of last minute developments, the vote and debate on Congressman Weiner's single-payer amendment will not happen.
Speaker Pelosi received a statement from Rep. Kucinich and Rep. Conyers, the co-authors of HR 676, that they do not think that this is the right time for a vote on national single-payer legislation. They made this statement despite the extensive mobilization in support of this vote across the country. In addition, Speaker Pelosi felt that offering a single-payer amendment would open the floodgates to amendments proposed to limit abortion funds, restrict immigrant access to healthcare, and other regressive legislation.
Let us remember that the potential vote on Congressman Weiner's single-payer amendment resulted from holding fast to our principles of universal, comprehensive healthcare with no financial barriers. These efforts have brought truth and clarity to a national debate on healthcare reform that has been polluted by the corporate influence over Congress. While the private insurance industry has sent 3,000 lobbyists to Capitol Hill this year, spending 1.4 million dollars a day to shape reform that protects their profits, our calls, faxes, and demonstrations have created the momentum to bring legislation based on HR 676 to the floor of the House and Senate.
The vote for Congressman Weiner's single-payer amendment would have allowed advocates to have their representatives on record as single-payer supporters.
But this legislative battle is not yet over. Our focus can now turn to two remaining efforts for single-payer in this Congress. Sen. Bernie Sanders will introduce S 703 in coming weeks, and we understand that he is considering editing it to be more like HR 676. We will have the opportunity again to see the first ever vote on single-payer in this Congress. In addition, Rep. Kucinich's amendment to allow states to more easily implement a single-payer system may be reinserted into the bill during the conference committee between the House and Senate.
All of these efforts are crucial to building the movement for the only solution to our healthcare crisis - single-payer national healthcare.
If this Congress passes inadequate legislation, there will no doubt be emboldened state movements in the coming years. We welcome them. But let us not forget the movement to push our federal legislators to meet the demands of the people, not roll that responsibility onto the states. Healthcare-NOW! and the Leadership Conference for Guaranteed Health Care remains committed to a national, single-payer solution to the healthcare crisis. Comprehensive, quality healthcare is a right that should be extended to every U.S. resident.
At this important time, let us not forget how far we have come. Either now or later, a single-payer national healthcare system must come to the table. We will keep building the movement to make that happen.
For healthcare justice,
Healthcare-NOW!
Physicians for a National Health Program
Progressive Democrats of America
Public Citizen
Healthcare for All Texas
Western PA Coalition for Single Payer
Alliance for Democracy
----------------
I think the few protections from insurance company "death panels" in this bill are outweighed by the insurance mandates and penalties for non- compliance.Buy insurance and life insurance,but if you get really sick please die quickly so investors don't lose too much.As the economy continues to "tank" millions more will be driven to Medicaid rolls and food stamps, putting an additional strain on stretched State budgets.Time to buy a cheap imported coffin at Mall Wart! Stay well please.
Maybe the insurance industry just hopes we will role over and play dead.
It should be VERY clear now, that democrats are not (for the most part) liberal.
This is very dis-heartening.
I'm afraid that the current "compromise" bill is worse than nothing at all - at least then enough people would affected they would finally wake up and swell the ranks of advocates for real health care.
Kucinich and Conyers should vote NO on the democrats bill.
This is finally coming to an end.
Dennis is right, this is not a good time to try to get a vote on this bill.
HR676 is so flawed that there never will be, never was a good time to try to pass it.
A frontal assault on an entrenched industry that comprises 1/6 of our GDP, with no graceful exit plan, no provision for the million or so people who's jobs it would outlaw, is doomed for the moment it went into the hopper in the House. And the fanatical enthusiasts for this bill were so outrageous, so out of line, that they alienated the people that they needed to work with to effect a positive change. Occupying Obey's office was just plain stupid and it backfired BIGTIME.
Of course, my fellow progressives won't own up to that, but oh well.
Did anyone ask WHY Single Payer was off the table? Did it ever occur to people on the Left that maybe this particular bill wasn't the be-all and end-all? That maybe a better bill could have been worked out?
And once it was clear that 676 was not going to go, when the Progressive Caucus, the Black Caucus, The Hispanic Caucus all came out to US and asked for support for RPO, what did they get from the Progressive community?
A purity fight.
A typical Lefty Circular Firing Squad. What Obey called a "Stupid Liberal Trick" and remember, he's one of the most liberal voices in the House.
You can blame Pelosi and Obama and everyone else all you want, but don't forget how badly the Progressive community screwed this pooch.
By breaking up into unreasonable factions and going on the offensive against any compromise, the Left left the table and left the door wide open for the Lobbyists and the TeaBaggers, and guess what happened.
We didn't even get squat.
They speak with one voice, a unified message.
We sound like a riot in a kindergarden.
I'm very sorry that it has come to this. I love and respect Dennis, I've campaigned for him and feel that he's one of the best-hearted people in Congress.
I have advocated for National Health for decades, this is the third time that this fight has played out in front of me and the closest we've ever come to breaking the grip of the Insurance companies. And we may yet prevail, but only by sheer luck.
The strategic move to make a National Health Plan optional, to compete against the 4Ps in an exchange, deprived the Companies of their claim that their businesses were being siezed. Had we been able to get behind RPO as a bloc, it would have been robust, it would have competed the 4Ps out of the market in a few years because a Govt run program, like MediCare, is so much more efficient, no profit, less administration, no advertising, no multi-million dollar compensation packages, the 4Ps would not have been able to deliver the coverage and continue to do business.
Now it looks like we won't even get that.
So take a bow Purists, you've earned it.
Hey CV. If you want unity on the left, then why don't you move some of the centrist liberals more so to the left so we can have some unity over here? We're certain that we're standing on terra firma. Tell them to "be not afraid".
"why don't you move some of the centrist liberals more so to the left"
Lifelong struggle, not making much headway.
It's hard to convince moderately liberal people, about 60% of the population to adopt extreme positions currently held by about 2%. That's NOT terra firma in most peoples' view.
Why don't that 2% work WITH the MAJORITY rather than setting themselves up against it?
This summer, there were polls showing that Public Option was favorable to 78% of the responders, but when the optional part was removed, that is, Single Payer, the support dropped below 40%. The MAJORITY of people in this country want a National Health Plan to exist, but they don't want to have no choice but that plan.
(Personally, I figure that part of it is fear of change and part is a kind of pride that says, "Yes, we need to have Welfare as a safety net, but I'd never sign up for it". Receiving govt assistance stigmatizes you.)
And despite those poll numbers, the "Pure" Left kept on with this "No, You change your mind, I won't budge" approach.
Since many of that Elite are published writers from blogs, Alt Media on up through the back pages of the MSM, they are widely read, many people, that are not too deep into the details, read them instead of digging in on their own, simply walked away shaking their heads.
The Ideologs of Liberalism, while less loathsome (and far less dangerous) than the Ideologs on the Right, are just as out of touch with the bulk of the population. This country has been dragged so far to the Right that what used to be a Centerist positon is now considered Very Liberal. And what used to be considered wingnut conservatism, like, say, Barry Goldwater circa 1963, is considered mainstream.
And yet, when asked on an issue by issue basis, the MAJORITY here is moderately liberal, even when they consider themselves moderately conservative. What's considered a conservative government in Europe, like Merkel or Sarkozy, would classify as solidly Socialist here. The perspective has been distorted by extremism ON BOTH SIDES, though the primary culprits have been the Conservative-owned Media/ThinkTank/K street axis.
I'd love to see the pendulum swing to the Left. It's been moving Rightward for the past thirty-forty years. The Woodstock Generation turns out to have been a blip. While the Media and the hype were focused on the Hippies, the MBAs were quietly taking over the world, thus, our generation, when we finally inherited the reins, turned out to be more conservative than anyone expected. For every Abby Hoffman there were 100 Bill Clintons.
If you can figure a way to move the needle leftward that really reaches people, I'm all for it, but don't expect too much. Most Americans are far more interested in sports and entertainment than politics and social issues. Catching their attention without alienating them, particularly when the Corporate Media is working against that very shift, distracting and demonizing to beat the band, will take levels of creativity and flexibility and strategic thinking that I don't see displayed by the Left's elites.
I'm sorry, CV. The "robust public option" was never on the table. It was just a slogan to cover for what was always the plan, a weak, worse-than-useless public option. It was not pressure from single-payer advocates that squelched the "RPO" as you call it. It was insurance company opposition. Single-payer advocacy forced them to include a pathetic public option, but that was always its purpose, to provide cover for avoiding National Health Insurance or and NHP. This has been known and written about on CV and many other places for a year now.
This comment is nothing but a crock of "Blame the Victim" I do not recognize it's originator as being a regular here, so maybe it is a troll. Can't say ---- but I can say with confidence that a time will come and I hope within my lifetime (I am an old man) when slaughter of this nest of villans and many others will be a gruesome sight. King Louis didn't think the French would do it either---- finally, the populace will have had enough ---- The perfidy and and psycohpathy of the powerful over the many will pass ---- who was it who said (paraphrased) "The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"?????
That was Jefferson and also that armed teabagger this summer.
Just for your records, donkey hole, I've been a reader here at commondreams for at least the past nine years, maybe more, I can't remember. This was one of the first Progressive news and opinion sites I hit. I don't comment much here, but I read the comments as well as the articles.
Funny thing, CV, about having to bargain and compromise, because last I looked into the notion, one starts the bargaining process by asking for everything one wants. The democrats always seem to start in a completely compromised position - settle for a bill that has everything the corporations want. They then get shrill accusaitons of "socialism" anyway, from their well trained jumping circus-dogs on the right.
Then the new law fails - burdening citizens and small businesses, because the new laws were custom made to give big corporations the advantage, while cynically telling the populace to oppose socialistic government.
So the republicans get back in power - they never compromise and they always seem to get everything they want. The law or program is defunded or repealed.
It a ratchet-like process. Turning right tightens, turning left freewheels. it HAS to be a deliberately thought-out process.
CV November is entitled to his own opinions, but not to his own facts. Neither Obama or the Democrats in congress had any intention of delivering anything resembling genuine healthcare reform, including the so-called "robust" public option that would be worth a damn.
You'd best understand that if any real reform of any kind is to take place - including healthcare - we'll have to fight for it and that includes taking on the president along with the rest of the Democratic party.
"Neither Obama or the Democrats in congress had any intention of delivering anything resembling genuine healthcare reform,"
This is an opinion, not a fact. You have no evidence of their intentions.
"...that includes taking on the president along with the rest of the Democratic party"
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe cooperation might work better than conflict? That threats and verbal attacks don't win you any friends?
It might help if y'all learned a little about how the American Political system actually works rather than relying on some paranoid Libertarian's nightmare interpretation.
You have to have the votes to get anything through. If you can't line up enough votes, your bill is going nowhere. In order to line up those votes, you have to show the other members what they get out of it. And you have to at least listen to their objections. They might even have a valid point. And it might be something that you overlooked or some non-central aspect. These things are then traded for votes.
You need at least 50%+1 to prevail. In the Senate, you need 60 to close debate and call a vote. Wihout these votes your bill is a stack of scrap paper.
This process involves compromise. It's unavoidable. There are 330 million Americans and they don't all agree on ANYTHING. Making legislation that will cover all those different people is a messy business, you've heard it descibed as like making sausage, what goes into sausage is at least, edible. Kennedy described this negotiating process perfectly: "Everybody gets something, nobody gets everything, nobody gets nothing."
Refusing to deal gets you cut out of the deal, you have to stay in or you lose.
It's not pretty. It's not fun. For idealists, it's anathema. There is no pure law, no undisputed, undiluted truth in the world and certainly not in Washington DC.
From the article: "Here are the facts: There has been no debate in Congress over HR676. There has not been a single mark-up of the bill. Single payer was "taken off the table" for the entire year by the White House and by congressional leaders."
Obama declared in his speech before congress the public option to be a "sliver" of his plans for healthcare reform. Even members of the progressive caucus gave a dismissive audience to single payer advocacy, and further, compromised on an almost weekly basis with the White House and conservative Democrats on the public option. Single payer advocates have been shut completely out of this process from start to finish.
Those would be facts.
The corruption in the Democratic Party has never been more obvious. The proposals put forward by Pelosi, Baucus and Harry Reed are by the insurance companies, for the insurance companies and of the insurance companies and the party’s allegiance to corporate interests becomes clearer all the time.
Although you might believe many of us "y'all" have a lot to learn about how the American political system works, at least we recognize corruption when we see it.
Believing any sort of genuine reform will come about through parliamentary procedures in this failed two party system owned lock stock & barrel and beholden to Wall St. and the banksters would be the greater naivete.
Stop laying the blame for this piece of crap legislation on the door step of those who have worked diligently to bring about genunine healthcare reform. I don't recall Rosa Parks having asked politely if she could have a seat in the front of the bus - she took it and defiantly refused to give it up.
And as for everybody "getting something, nobody getting everything and nobody getting nothing" you've forgotten that he who has the gold makes the rules.
"Dennis is right, this is not a good time to try to get a vote on this bill. HR676 is so flawed that there never will be, never was a good time to try to pass it."
I believe he is referring to Weiner's amendment, not H.R. 676.
"Did anyone ask WHY Single Payer was off the table? Did it ever occur to people on the Left that maybe this particular bill wasn't the be-all and end-all? That maybe a better bill could have been worked out?"
Single payer was off the table even when Obama was running for President, because our Congress is corrupt and controlled by lobbyists representing the ruthless interests of big corporations, and in this case, the health insurance industry.
It is never about sitting down for a rational discussion. IMO, those who derail this most on the left, are those so convinced certain interests are really interested in talking. Assume from the get-go, they are NOT.
". . . my fellow progressives . . . ."
You are not a Progressive. You're an industry troll.
q
Thanks!
Now tell us the story again about Not Making the Perfect the Enemy of the Good!
Because if YOU won't there are other Stern Parents around here who will.
· Yr Obd't Servant
The vote on Weiner's health care plan has been cancelled.
"...Congressman Weiner has agreed with Nancy Pelosi not to have a floor vote on his Medicare for All bill. A press release from Congressmen Kucinich and Conyers opposing it helped tip the scale. But Weiner did not ask Pelosi to include in her bill the Kucinich Amendment to allow states to create single-payer. Pelosi made clear that President Obama opposes that, and used the bogus excuse that providing everyone with comprehensive free healthcare would deprive them of the right to pay ever increasing rates for uncertain health "insurance."...
Full story:
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/11/06-8
The only problem with the explanation is that none of the big groups supporting the public option are calling for a No vote in order to resurrect a robust approach. Instead, they are all begging their members to support the passage of this bad bill. This just seems like protecting the Democrats from having to vote on single payer, which is what the NY Times is reporting.
Dammit. I just signed a petition for single payer.
We need to support Dennis Kucinich.
He is the only one tirelessly fighting for us.
Let's start fighting for him if we want him to run in 2012.
People, take the pledge:
NO MORE Millionaires
NO MORE Harvard graduates
NO MORE Lawyers
Dennis Kucinich has consistently voted for the people, articulately represented the people and IS one of the people.
I don't know exactly how he would do it, but I believe as President he would get single-payer for us.
I agree with you, Sue1403.
Given the unequivocated recognition that health care at this stage remains insurance care, let it go and fall where it may and live to fight another day.
Extrication from the straightjacket imposed over the last 8 years is going to be an effort that will gain shape beyond the terms and conditions by which problems are currently defined.
The necessity for shifting into a mindset of sustainability will interconnect concerns in new ways - already underway.
What a fucking mess. Total and I mean total capitulation by the so called Progressive caucus as usual and predicted and total betrayal by the Dem. leadership. I hate to say it but I'm almost ready to get out some tea bags on this one. I would but I hate those bastards even more! This is a pathetic situation for all of us that had hoped that we'd get more from these pricks then being turned into Corp. serfs. No such luck! they and their families have the very best Socialized Healthcare OUR friggin $$ can buy for life and they're basically flipping the rest of us a bird on this. The Dems. are going to pay the price 2 major ways for this stupid travesty. 1. When Ins. rates soar the backlash is going to be directed at them and 2. When people get fined for not wanting to be herded into over priced lousy policies. The bottom line is this BILL is a near total sell out to the same Vampires already sucking our blood. IT SUCKS no pun intended!
And on T.V. they're screaming that this plan is "liberal" and "socialized medicine".
40 million new customers for corporate insurance is apparently liberal, socialized medicine. Who'd of known?
And when it fails, as it will, they'll blame the "left".
And single-payer will be pushed back at least a couple decades.
The reality is that this legislation is a right-wing corporate hack's wet dream.
Ronald F**ing Reagan couldn't have pulled this off.
Three cheers for Obama!
This is Obama's failure.
The Obama administration's indifference and making health care for the American people "optional" is a grand mistake.
I won't forget being stabbing in the back by Obama, Emanuel, Pelosi and Reid.
"I won't forget being stabbing in the back by Obama, Emanuel, Pelosi and Reid." –(phasor)
–Most certainly. That should not be forgotten.
But the lesson to be learned here is that you should have known in advance they would be stabbing you in the back all along.
Examine why that is true.
You are not alone.
See the greater darkness as the light of the future emerges from out of that. –(Jill Bains).
So the public option has been turned into a pile of sludge for which only 6 million Americans would qualify, even if they wanted it. And from what I hear about it, no one would. States will not be permitted to pass state single payer health care. And as Senator Ron Wyden charitably put it, the insurance industry will provide policies to "fit" every budget. They already do that, as any big box retail worker can tell us. That is, useless policies with sky high deductibles, copays, and exclusions. But best of all, we will all be forced into this theft of our health care dollars. The size of the mandate penalty appears to be a well kept secret.
And Nancy Off-the-Table Pelosi will allow a vote on "a" single payer plan - written by whom? Perhaps an insurance industry lobbyist? Actually we should start calling her Nancy Backstabber Pelosi.
Welcome to America, the land of insurance, finance and military hardware corporations. Sorry if I left any off the list - too many to name. And our bought and paid for Congress? Just a funnel of taxpayer money for them.
When the people fear their government there is tyranny,
when the government fears the people there is liberty.
~ Thomas Jefferson
Congress would not be bought and paid for by the insurance companies if their profits could be marginalized. More than regular customers, doctors and companies are the ones who pay the most to those insurance companies. We can go to doctors who don't do business with insurance companies and don't take patients tied to insurance companies and negotiate the costs for visits and treatments. The doctors and companies tied to the insurance companies need to be pushed into pulling out. From there, insurance companies will have less money to bribe Congress and our influence on Congress to pass HR676 will prevail.
We could also nationalize the insurance companies short of telling government to stop meddling with people's health affairs and to stop giving tax dollars to them.
Certainly Conyers knew that HR 676 would never pass until the criminal politicians were held accountable and the Constitution was restored as the law of the land.
Conyers had his chance not only to become an American hero but pave the way for a new government capable of embracing authentic change.
Now when the opportunity for HR 676 arises he can't understand why the door is closed and people won't line up behind him in support.
You could see this coming for years.
If Conyers truly wanted HR 676 to pass he'd of been on a mission cleaning up the government since the day he participated in the Downing Street memo hearings in the crowded basement of the Capitol.
Instead he chose failure.
elohim and ephraim said it best countless times when they asked why John Conyers won't even use his powers to take HR676 to the floor or for that matter put impeachment of Dubya on the table and force Congress to tell the people via their votes whose side each of them are on. Dennis Kucinich is at least prepared to try various venues to fight for the people but I don't trust Conyers as he appears to put party over progressive principles by allowing HR676 to languish for the most part. I wished Conyers had the same kind of dedication as Kucinich. :.(
Exactly what do we say and who do we call?
This is getting confusing.
If single-payer supporters call en-masse to halt a vote how will that be interpreted?
If the vote happens and it's shot down will it actually hurt the drive for state single-payer?
Have you thought this through?
It looks like we're going to be checkmated no matter what we do?
In this game it's not over unless the fat lady wields automatic weapons.
What to do?
Hold out: write, vote out incumbents, dump your insurance provider.
The Democratic party has put itself in huge trouble if it does not produce something it can at least pretend is progressive. The voices supporting the Dems become more shrill and more isolated with every action and every betrayal 0bama & Pelosi make.
They appear to have intended some halfway pretence of healthcare as a sop to their voters. But course their sponsors in the insurance industry would only be too happy to have their Republicans back, and they're negotiating in serious.
The Dems need to pass something. But a 1900-page document that corrals customers for the insurance industry while making no real guarantees to consumers does not deserve to pass.
Since when does congress listen to anything the people say?
I remember phoning Conyers Office about Impeachment of Bush era crimes, and they hung up on me.
They listen fast when the ballot box, the pocket-book, or the business-as-usual goes "Ouchie."
There's an old story about a man who loans his donkey. He explains to the borrower how he has to speak sweetly to the donkey and politely ask it to work.
The borrower whispers sweet nothings in the donkey's ear half the day, then stalks back to the lender and complains.
The lender strolls over to the donkey, grabs a 2'*4', and whops the poor animal crisply over the head.
"What are you doing?!" Cries the borrower. "Don't kill the animal! I just need it to work. You said I should whisper to it!"
The lender approaches his burro and touches it gently at the shoulder, cooing, "There, now, burro mio, this gentleman wants nothing bad for you. Would you please carry his things?"
The donkey trots off with the goods, and the borrower stands staring at the lender in amazement.
"You have to talk to him sweetly," the lender explains, "but first you have to get his attention."
I suppose with an elephant you would need a bigger stick.
"If the vote happens and it's shot down will it actually hurt the drive for state single-payer?"
What do you mean "if"? Do you honestly believe that Pelosi would allow this vote unless she knew for certain that the bill would fail? What has happened over the past few months that would convince you that a straight-up vote on 'a' single-payer bill might succeed?
Conyers and Kucinich are correctly identifying this vote for what it is: political theater. They deserve our support on this issue.
Getting single payer passed is going to take time. Indulging in your own anger because it isn't going to happen this minute will make that time longer.
q
Yes, I'm well aware Congressman Weiner's proposal has a less than zero chance of passing.
I'm simply asking if calling our reps and demanding the vote to be halted will cause more damage down the line than doing nothing.
Our reps are simpletons and may believe that single-payer advocates are throwing in the towel. This may hurt the drive for state single-payer down the road.
If you believe we should call our reps perhaps you can suggest what we should say in order to lessen confusion and keep hope for the Kucinich amendment alive when the senate and house meet to hammer out the final bill.
Normally people who advocate for legislation aren't put in the position of asking for a vote to be stopped so that they may pass a downsized version of the plan at a later date.
The article pretty clearly states the authors' beliefs about the likely outcomes for this situation.
"Many progressives in Congress, ourselves included, feel that calling for a vote tomorrow for single payer would be tantamount to driving the movement over a cliff. The thrill of the vote would disappear quickly when the result would be characterized not as a new beginning for single payer but as an end. Such a result would be seen as proof that Congress need not pay attention to efforts to restore in Conference Committee the right of states to pursue single payer without fear of legal attacks by insurance companies."
It seems very obvious that Conyers and Kucinich feel that holding this vote on this bill will do more harm than good to the future of true health care financing reform.
You could ask your rep to vote "present' rather than "yea" or "nay." In such a way, the opponents of reform could not claim that it was voted down.
q
I fear you're right, and I trust Kucinich on this. Pelosi is a snake. She's already stabbed Kucinich in the back once and likewise Weiner. The only way it would come to the floor is to ensure that it would fail. We need Kucinich to come talk to Grayson and get him solidly on board with single-payer, at the very least, and others.
How obtuse.
Just so.
q