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Marine Corps Concerned About 'Jesus Guns,' Will Meet With Trijicon
Following ABC News Report of Secret Bible Verses on Weapons Used in Muslim Lands, Marines Will Meet With Maker of Equipment
Following an ABC News report that thousands of gun sights used by the U.S. military in Iraq and Afghanistan are inscribed with secret Bible references, a spokesperson for the Marine Corps said the Corps is 'concerned' and will discuss the matter with the weapons manufacturer.
This scope is imprinted with the marking "2COR4:6", a reference to the second book of Corinthians in the New Testament, Chapter 4, Verse 6. The verse reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (King James Version) (ABC News)
"We are aware of the issue and are concerned with how this may be
perceived," Capt. Geraldine Carey, a spokesperson for the Marine Corps,
said in a statement to ABC News. "We will meet with the vendor to
discuss future sight procurements." Carey said that when the initial
deal was made in 2005 it was the only product that met the Corps needs.
However, a spokesperson for CentCom, the U.S. military's overall command in Iraq and Aghanistan, said he did not understand why the issue was any different from U.S. money with religious inscriptions on it.
"The perfect parallel that I see," said Maj. John Redfield, spokesperson for CentCom, told ABC News, "is between the statement that's on the back of our dollar bills, which is 'In God We Trust,' and we haven't moved away from that."
Said Redfield, "Unless the equipment that's being used that has these inscriptions proved to be less than effective for soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and military folks using it, I wouldn't see why we would stop using that."
A spokesperson for the Army told ABC News that the Army was looking into the procurement "to see if anything is amiss here. We are still checking."
As ABC News reported Monday, the sights are used by U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the training of Iraqi and Afghan soldiers. The maker of the sights, Trijicon, has a $660 million multi-year contract to provide up to 800,000 sights to the Marine Corps, and additional contracts to provide sights to the U.S. Army.
U.S. military rules specifically prohibit the proselytizing of any religion in Iraq or Afghanistan and were drawn up in order to prevent criticism that the U.S. was embarked on a religious "Crusade" in its war against al Qaeda and Iraqi insurgents.
'This Does Not Constitute Proselytizing'
One of the citations on the gun sights, 2COR4:6, is an apparent reference to Second Corinthians 4:6 of the New Testament, which reads: "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
Other references include citations from the books of Revelation, Matthew and John dealing with Jesus as "the light of the world." John 8:12, referred to on the gun sights as JN8:12, reads, "Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
Trijicon confirmed to ABCNews.com that it adds the biblical codes to the sights sold to the U.S. military. Tom Munson, director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, which is based in Wixom, Michigan, said the inscriptions "have always been there" and said there was nothing wrong or illegal with adding them.
Munson said the issue was being raised by a group that is "not Christian." The company has said the practice began under its founder, Glyn Bindon, a devout Christian from South Africa who was killed in a 2003 plane crash.
On Monday, spokespeople for the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps both told ABC News their services were unaware of the biblical markings. On Tuesday, Redfield of CentCom told ABC News that the inscriptions did not violate the directive against proselytizing. "This does not constitute proselytizing because this equipment is not issued beyond the U.S. Defense Department personnel. It's not something we're giving away to the local folks."
But ABC News was able to find repeated references to the Biblical citations in on-line discussions of the gun sights. In August 2009, a poster named "Latex Ducky" tells other posters on a forum for firearm enthusiasts called "The Firing Line" about the inscriptions. "Here's something interesting: There should be a reference to a Bible verse on the base of the scope."
Back in 2006, on a self-described "Armageddon Forum," a number of users discuss the Bible references. "Seems there's a different verse on each model," writes Mr45auto. "They chose some whoppers too!"
After the Blotter's report Monday morning, the TPM Muckraker news Web site listed numerous references to the Trijicon Bible codes on-line dating back several years, including a January 2006 thread on a gaming forum that said "DoD contractor puts bible verses on it's (sic) products."
In May of 2006, a poster on Militaryphotos.net began a comment thread by asking, "Has anyone ever noticed the Bible verse on their ACOG sight?" Another user responds, "Yeah I read about that recently, but I didn't know there were than many different verses on all the different optics."
A video on YouTube that discusses the Bible verses had close to 20,000 views. "One of the really cool things that I like about this sight," says the maker of the video, is the Bible verse. "It says JN8:12. What that is is John 8:12."
"I love it. I love it. Yes, Trijicon, those guys are Christians. On all of their different sights they have verses on there."
"For those of you who aren't Christians, well, you know, get over it."
In another video, the same YouTube user notes the reference to Second Corinthians on a Trijicon scope.
'They Should Fix Them All'
"It's wrong, it violates the Constitution, it violates a number of federal laws," said Michael "Mikey" Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, an advocacy group that seeks to preserve the separation of church and state in the military.
Weinstein, an attorney and former Air Force officer, said many members of his group who currently serve in the military have complained about the markings on the sights. He also claims they've told him that commanders have referred to weapons with the sights as "spiritually transformed firearm[s] of Jesus Christ."
Weinstein said coded biblical inscriptions play into the hands of those who call the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan "a Crusade."
Retired Army Major General William Nash, now an ABC News consultant, said he had "no problem" with organizations providing Bibles and other religious tracts to U.S. troops. "But I do have a problem," said Nash, "with military equipment being labeled in a way where it seems like it's our god against their god."
Nash, who commanded the first brigade of the third armored division during Desert Storm in Iraq, said the Pentagon should make Trijicon remove the Bible codes from their sights.
Said Nash, "They should fix them all, they should do a modification on those sights and take off those inscriptions. And if they fail to do that they should be penalized."
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60 Comments so far
Show AllShould we be upset by the fact that the optics in these sights are made in China?
Well, like, yeah.
But they pinky-swore the Pentagon that they would never sell us bad optics even if we go to war with them.
Are you saying they would *gasp* VIOLATE the sacred pinky-swear?
Just for money and power?
That's just sick.
"The perfect parallel that I see," said Maj. John Redfield, spokesperson for CentCom, told ABC News, "is between the statement that's on the back of our dollar bills, which is 'In God We Trust,' and we haven't moved away from that."
________________________________
Here, Major Redfield proudly carries on the tradition previously celebrated by General William G. "Jerry" Boykin-- a notorious fundie Christian Soldier whose certainty of US military victory is based on his conviction that his God is way better than the Muslims' "Allah".
"Allah" isn't a "real" God, just an "idol", Boykin clarified.
Well, this is what comes of posting seemingly harmless "gateway" superstitions like "In God We Trust" on our currency. Like shoehorning God into the Pledge of Allegiance during the Cold War, such idiocy is permitted in hopes of pacifying and assuaging a restive and reactionary religious fringe.
But Major Redfield demonstrates that such sops to superstition only encourages these deluded cultists by setting a dubious precedent.
Of course, Amerika has become a nation of dubious precedents.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Well said. Maj. Redfield needs to be told to throw in his papers, because he's obviously too unclear on the First Amendment to be a US Army officer.
And his bosses should get written reprimands in their files for failure to supervise.
Redfield's argument is the perfect one for removing 'In God We Trust' from U.S. currency. As he says, if you can put it on the dollar bill, you can put it anywhere: bayonets, Depleted Uranium shells, artificial legs...
Redfield seems blythely unaware of how offensive such quotations are to most Christians, when applied to killing weapons. Clearly, he inhabits a 'Green Zone' of the imagination as blind to reality as the physical one.
Condoms.....?
Isaiah 2:4- "They will beat their... spears into pruning hooks"??
Ouch...
WTF indeed! I had that exact same thought, but decided not to include it in my previous comment because it didn't quite fit.
And while I'm not one for boasting, I will say that I lack the dedication of the true pervert to begin combing the Holy Bible to develop a hilarious list of condom-relevant verses.
OK, Genesis 38:9. But EVERYBODY knows THAT one!
· Yr Obd't Servant
Sex education: old testament style.
"In God We Trust" didn't appear on money until the mid 1950's. Up to that point, "our" government at least had the respect for our founding fathers to respect their will and keep religion out of our government. Prior to the `1950's, the statement "E Pluribus Unium" appeared appeared was used on our coins.
I have to admit that in "mouth feel" terms, even Yr. Agnostic Servant prefers "In God We Trust" to the annoyingly cryptic, mystical, ambiguous, and obscure "e pluribus unum".
As slogans go, "e pluribus" is on a par with United Parcel Service's icky "See What Brown Can Do for You". It's more of a Secret Password phrase, IMO, unwisely elevated above its station to the role of "motto".
But the terms became locked into a dualistic, perpetual tug-of-war between Spiritual and Secular. "God" got its foot in the mint door during the Civil War, allegedly in response to rising public religious sentiment.
But it was also a sop, a political consolation prize, to leaders in the American Protestant constituency burgeoning from the Second Great Awakening, who lobbied for the adoption of a rewritten US Constitution with explicit Christian language.
I don't know the detailed history after that, except that it became still another football for lizard-brain ideological rivalry, i.e. "God" vs. the sinister secular "e pluribus unum".
It's the rankest combination of jingoism and smarmy piety imaginable, so perhaps it belongs on our lowest common denominator-- money, the excrement of Mammon.
· Yr Obd't Servant
Number 273 on the list of reasons why Christians are despised and despicable. Number 738 on the list of reasons why religions are despised and despicable. As for the China angle, probably better not to buy anything from them since so many of their products kill people and animals - oh, wait, America doesn't manufacture anything anymore so we have to buy from the Chinese, and anyway they own the United States.
Please see my post below.
Whatever they are, these folks certainly are NOT "Christians".
Of course they're Christians. Just ask them. They will proclaim loudly and continuously that they are Christians, the best sort of Christians, the only people possessed of the Truth, the worshippers of the only true god. And their milder fellow Christians do not rebuke them. So they all get the same tar. They're arrogant, they're ignorant, they're thoughtless, they're narrow-minded, bigoted, and full of hate.
In any event, being Christian is an aspiration, not an achievement. There probably aren't five people in the world who can claim to lead fully Christian lives. These other assholes are poseurs, phonies, people whose inner lives are so pathetic, so fearful of this life, that they'll believe any sort of crap that props up their failed egos and soothes their fear of death with the most ridiculous nonsense.
All of which makes them a bunch of dangerous clowns when they take their nonsense into the public and political arenas. Never underestimate the evil of men who claim to do good.
Fix it. Morons.
You and Major General (Ret.) William Nash forgot to mention that you'll happily pay for this to be fixed. We expect your checks forthwith.
What? Not your problem? Then let it go. They'll stop inscribing the sights and we can go back to worrying about other things. Nobody believes anything inscribed on those sights anyway.
This religious fanaticalism can be attributed to the Christian fundamentalism movement, a misled form of Christianity that prefers to divide the world rather than heal the world. It is a religion of the ego, us against them, rather than a Christianity of personal transformation.
This Christian fundamentalist movement is a repeat of immature Christianity in the past.This is a form of Christianity that cannot see the log in its own eye.It is the great protector of capitalism and the waging of unjust wars. Christian fundamentaism is a fraud.
probably closer to the broader truth is:
AMERICAN "christianity" is a FRAUD.
it would be the RARE american to be a true follower of the teachings of peace and love and kindness and generosity by Jesus Christ. A RARITY. in fact - that kind of american "christian" would be going against the NORM.
most others are , in different degrees just "christian in name" only -- and more like apologists for the REAL "american religion" -- CAPITALISM and Profit and Power and Greed. THAT's the True religion of America..and most americans.
if anything the American claims about morality and "christianity" are the greatest example of american ORWELLIAN language....
dressing up something for what it is NOT.
and that is just the Heading of a long endless list of AmericanISMS...all of them Orwellian:
"democracy" pretense when in fact it is a Fascist Corporatocracy.
"freedom loving" pretense when in fact it means "freedom to exploit and pillage"
"free market" -- when in fact the USA is the main and biggest "protectionist" economy
"fair competition" -- when in fact the USA is the main and biggest game-rigger of all time
"Justice" -- when in fact it is selective and designed to promote Fascism and corporatism
"Truth" when in fact - its institutions are designed to masquerade in order to hide truths that are too inconvenient against its claims
"Morality" - when in fact , part of its morality is to Torture People and kill them for being different and sitting on Treasures americans lust after...
one can go on and on....
The fundamentalists, (a good lot of them) in my opinion, have the mindset of the Inquisitionists. They'd like to convert people who're willing, and the rest of us they'd gladly put to the stake after torturing a coversion out of us.
They are extremely good at quoting bible verses, just not very good at living them!
You know I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no orther God before me. (Except for the all mighty dollar of course.) Thou shalt not kill! Thou shalt not covet another mans/countries possesions. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
1. To the general: IT IS THE SAME GOD!! Abraham's GOD is the God of both Christians and Muslims (and also Jews). It is beyond bizarre that people forget this.
2. Anyone who calls themselves a Christian and delights in Christian Scripture being stamped on to a killing machine is NOT a Christian!
How about these quotes from the book of Matthew:
-"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." 5:9
Seems straightforward, but how about:
-"All who draw the sword will die by the sword." 26:52
Think He would have said "gun" if they'd been around yet? I do.
This one seems REALLY appropriate for a GUNSIGHT:
-"If your right EYE causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell." 5:29
An ichthus on the back of your SUV doesn't make you a Christian and a bible reference on your GUNSIGHT sure as hell doesn't either.
I don't know exactly WHAT we should call these kind of people, but I do know it isn't "Christians".
-matti.
Asked by a Time Magazine Reporter for the famous, highly respected great man's opinion --- perhaps expecting a Glowing praise, "Mister Gandhi , what do you LIKE about America?"
MAHATMA GANDHI: "I do not like your Christians....they are so Unchristlike"....
"everyone in the world knows Jesus Christ preached peace and love....except Christians".
WTF, brings a whole new perspective to "What Would Jesus Do".
War profiteers with a crusade mentality.
At least Glyn Bindon's KARMA, came home to roost in a somewhat timely fashion.
Well, if gun sights need a bible quotation, I think the following should be put on every sight from rifles to ICBM's,
"THOU SHALT NOT KILL"
In plain text.
Should that be placed above or below the military prayer "Kill 'em all; let God sort 'em out"?
How about instead of?
That's good, or this one:
Matthew 19:24
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
If they put that one on there they'd have to stop shooting poor people of color, and declare a 'War on Wall Street' instead.
Re. the subtitle:
"This Does Not Constitute Proselityzing"
-You can say THAT again!
(LOL)
"Be on the watch for the false profets that come to you in sheep's covering, but inside are ravenous wolves.
By their fruits you will rcognize them." (MATTHEW 7:15,16)
"This does not constitute proselytizing because this equipment is not issued beyond the U.S. Defense Department personnel. It's not something we're giving away to the local folks."
No, but you distribute the bullets pretty damn freely
Gee, more religious crap for the military to judge troops with and this Redfield charlatan comment:
"The perfect parallel that I see," said Maj. John Redfield, spokesperson for CentCom, told ABC News, "is between the statement that's on the back of our dollar bills, which is 'In God We Trust,' and we haven't moved away from that."
is NO parallel as he sees it because IF there were a god, he damn sure would have exacted vengeance on everyone using his name to trick, misinform, harm, rob and kill in his name and I will tell anyone, it is in no trust to any god at all, what this ossifer really means about 'not moving away from' is really 'IN NUKES WE TRUST'.
And what was the model number of that ideology? OICU812? Or was it AREU486?
Unfortunately, it appears only a huge natural event will end these horrible paranoid people's reign of terror on everyone, but I guess it would end it for everyone.
sofa kingdom
Nothing new here folks. Remember the inscription on the Wehrmacht’s belt buckles? “Gott Mit Uns”. Onward Christian soldiers.
Whether by the Third Reich or the corporate Amerikaner Reich, the dead innocents, military and civilian, are just as dead. The difference comes down to a matter of degree. And of course the American war criminals are still free to spew accusations that Obama is giving “aid and comfort to the enemy”.
Hail Victory!
Interesting how we both posted reference to the belt buckles at the same time: 7:19pm.
'interesting'? or divine provenance!!!?
Nazi troopers had "God with Us" embossed on their belt buckles.
What Muslim, Jew or Atheist could possibly use these blasphemous weapons?
What 'christian' could murder and maim women and children in Jesus' name?
SSN: 666-66-6666
-30-
Maybe Trijicon is on to something. Here's one for the entrance to Goldman Sach's:
Isaiah 3:14,15 "The spoil of the poor is in your houses; what mean ye that ye crush my people, and grind the face of the poor?"
This sounds like a spoof the ONION would create. Are we sure this is being done? Putting bible references on a gun sight is not a bad idea. Soldiers need Jesus' salvation as much as anyone.
"Putting bible references on a gun sight is not a bad idea."
Actually, it is quite a useless idea.
What would Jesus do looking at his verses on the guns?
He would probably cancel the contract with Trijicon and give them a big fine.
Well if their objective is to convert the Muslims to Christianity wow what are they thinking? Do the Afghanistan and Iraqi people know that the title,chapter ,and verse of a Christian teaching is on the ammunition that is killing them and their children, tearing off their limbs , blinding or burning and scarring them and their children? Obviously this will cause the victims to hate the christian soldiers more, when the objective we are told is to win the hearts and minds of the citizens. It dishonors God and Christ, so why are they doing this? Are they ignorant or insane? It is like they love the war and want it to continue until they kill all the bad guys who they must think are those who do not accept their interpretation of the Christian bible teachings. The U.S. contract with Trijicon must be terminated immediately.
I suggest they replace Biblical references with a simple, "Milton Friedman was here."
Just think how the wingnut media demagogues and their enthralled yahoo echo chamber would react if it were disclosed that the dreaded and reviled Islamofascist terrorists had weapons bearing inscriptions from the Koran in their sleeper cells!
I guarantee it wouldn't be "no big deal".
· Yr Obd't Servant
Major John Redfield needs to be reminded of how it feels to be a 1st Lieutenant again. With the pay that goes along with the grade of O-2.
Dang! When jesus told his disciple that he would make them "fishers of men," he didn't mean that they would go forth literally "gaffing" people.
Yes but The Fisherman was talking about the Age of Pisces supplanting Aries the Ram and all those Mosaic horn blowers as Moses had done to the Age of Taurus and the Golden Calf. This is the Age Of Aquarius already.
This is easy. The US gov't should cancel its contract to buy from this company. Or, hold payments until the biblical references are removed. It is unconstitutional. There is, until it's repealed, a separation of church and state, and our tax dollars should not be spent to promote any single sect (bad enough we're forced to pay for wars that only benefit corporate interests).