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Can Barack Obama Undo Bush's Tangled Legal Legacy?
WASHINGTON - When Barack Obama becomes president in January, he'll confront the controversial legal legacy of the Bush administration.
From expansive executive privilege to hard-line tactics in the war on terrorism, Obama must decide what he'll undo and what he'll embrace.
The stakes couldn't be higher.
On one hand, civil libertarians and other critics of the Bush administration may feel betrayed if Obama doesn't move aggressively to reverse legal policies that they believe have violated the Constitution and international law.
On the other hand, Obama risks alienating some conservative Americans and some - but by no means all - military and intelligence officials if he seeks to hold officials accountable for those expansive policies.
These are some of the legal issues confronting him:
- How does he close the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba? He's pledged to shutter it, but how quickly can he do so when it holds some detainees whom no administration would want to release?
- Obama has declared coercive interrogation methods such as waterboarding unconstitutional and illegal, but will his Justice Department investigate or prosecute Bush administration officials who ordered or condoned such techniques?
- Will the new administration press to learn the full extent of the Bush administration's electronic eavesdropping and data-mining activities, and will it curtail or halt some of them?
- The Bush administration exerted tight control over the Justice Department by hiring more Republican-leaning political appointees and ousting those who were viewed as disloyal. Will Obama give the department more ideological independence?
Undoing some policies will take time.
With 316 conservative appointments to the federal courts over the last eight years, Obama could attempt to tilt the courts back to the center or even to the left with his nominees. He could alter the Supreme Court's bent by replacing two or three justices who'll probably retire soon.
Civil libertarians, who feel emboldened by a Democrat in the White House, tick off a long list of what they think Obama should do as soon as he takes office. Not only should Guantanamo be closed, they say, Obama should revoke the immunity for telecommunications companies that cooperated with secret eavesdropping, ban the use of secret prisons by the CIA and investigate and perhaps prosecute administration officials for authorizing controversial interrogation methods.
Anthony D. Romero, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union, which has led many of the challenges to the Bush administration's terrorism policies, said Obama could take action on most of these fronts "on day one" by issuing executive orders, such as closing Guantanamo.
"Unless he acts quickly, he runs the risk of showing the American people that their hope and optimism may have been misplaced, and reinforcing people's deep-seated cynicism that it's politics as usual in D.C.," he said.
Although Obama is likely to ban waterboarding and other aggressive techniques soon after taking office, prosecuting administration officials not only would be legally challenging because legislation has granted them immunity but also would be seen by Republicans as highly divisive.
Negotiating that minefield may be among the most difficult legal dilemmas Obama faces early in his administration because of pressure from the left and the right.
"There will be hell to pay if people are prosecuted," said Sanford Levinson, a University of Texas law professor. "But there'll be hell to pay if they just walk away scot-free."
He predicted that Obama might sidestep the controversy with the Bush administration's help. If President Bush issues pre-emptive pardons to prevent prosecutions, the Obama administration should form a bipartisan panel, similar to the Sept. 11 commission, to oversee an inquiry, he said. Once pardoned, officials implicated in the controversy would be required to discuss details of the policies because they'd be unable to assert their Fifth Amendment right to avoid self-incrimination.
The best person to lead such a commission? Levinson thinks it's John McCain, who condemned the interrogation techniques when he was running against Obama.
"There would be widespread support if the Obama administration did reach out to someone like McCain," Levinson said. "More people would regard it as not so much of a Democratic vendetta but as a necessary cleansing of an episode in recent American history that has had phenomenal costs to us around the world."
Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, a senior member of the Senate Judiciary and Intelligence committees, predicted that Obama would move to close Guantanamo relatively quickly. She'll reintroduce legislation to do so early next year.
"The handwriting is on the wall," Feinstein said. "It's just a matter of time."
Although Guantanamo isn't expected to be as thorny as the issues of interrogation techniques, detention without charges and eavesdropping, it may take longer to close than Obama wants because of the question of what to do with high-value terrorists. The Obama administration could end up moving them to prisons scattered across the United States as it sorts out who should remain jailed and where others should be sent.
The Bush Justice Department chose to fight the court-ordered releases of many of the detainees, even those whom the military had cleared. Obama's attorney general is likely to soften that stance and begin releasing them with court oversight, or perhaps order new legal reviews of all detainees.
Three dozen district-court and 15 appellate court vacancies await. Appellate court decisions set precedents for multiple states. Whoever fills the vacant seat on the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, for instance, will shape the law covering nine Western states.
For this reason, appellate court vacancies can become battlegrounds. On the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals, which spans five states, including the Carolinas, a vacancy lingers after eight years.
Considerable speculation in the legal community has centered on potential female appointees to the Supreme Court, where Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg is the only woman. One potential candidate is Judge Sonia Sotomayor, the first Hispanic woman to serve on the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals. Another is Harvard Law School's Dean Elena Kagan, who like Obama was on the University of Chicago Law School faculty.
Noncourt appointments, too, can shape the law in important ways.
Whomever Obama appoints as attorney general and in other top positions in the Justice Department could move in new directions on hot-button issues such as gun control and immigration. And after pledging to tackle the financial crisis and concerns about global warming, Obama might dedicate more resources to prosecuting white-collar and environmental crimes.
Paul Charlton, one of the nine U.S. attorneys whom the Bush administration ousted, predicted that an Obama administration would take a different approach to the death penalty. Charlton clashed with Bush appointees who pushed prosecutors to seek the death penalty in a wide array of cases, including drug trafficking. "I expect there will be a more judicious use of the death penalty," he said.
However, Bush administration critics who hope an Obama White House will be the antidote to what they see as excessive executive power may be disappointed.
Gene Healy, a Cato Institute vice president and the author of the book "The Cult of the Presidency: America's Dangerous Devotion to Executive Power," said expanding presidential power was a bipartisan reflex.
"People tend to think more positively about having robust executive authority when they're the ones who are actually wielding the authority," he said.
Obama, however, is unlikely to be aggressive as Bush. "He'll probably seek congressional approval, and that may be more effective at growing executive power than the unilateral, go-it-alone approach," Healy said.
- Posted in
68 Comments so far
Show AllUntil Bush and his gangsters are brought to trial for their legacy of war crimes and torture
it shall be a damning Albatross around the neck of this and all future American governments.
Many argue that had we responded differently after 9/11---held the high ground, and treated it like a police action, that things would be very different now. (Of course, that assumes it wasn't a false flag op).
Can we hold the high ground now?? Pretty tough, considering the death and destruction spewed out by Cheney, W and abbettors.
.Not only do many argue this strategy but most of our allies actually do it that way. England and France, with long histories of terrorist activity, IRA and Algerian Liberation Front respectively, used the police exclusively to combat such acts, and were very, very succesful in doing so.
This strategy however would not have accomplished Bush and Cheney's need to have a war time Presidency in order to push through their neocon agenda. The article asks the question of whether Bush, Cheney or various administration figures would be held accountable. The one word answer is...no.
Remember the refusal of Harriet Myers, John Bolton and "Turdblossom" to respond to subpoenas. Remember the effective and immediate flexing of the muscles of our Legislature to make them answerable? Well neither do I!
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
One thing that has bothered me ever since the beginning of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan is Bu$h's constant referral to himself as a "war time president." I am aware of the fact that many presidents of our past have been in the position where we became involved in a war during their administration, or they inherited a war prior to their administration, thus making them war time presidents. But Bu$h went out of his way to start these frigging wars in Afganistan and Iraq, which everybody with the brains of a clump of dog hair knows had nothing to due with the events of 9/11, just so he could call himself war time president, and therefore grab all of these ridiculous powers he claims come inherit with being a war president. He didn't inherit the title, he created it on purpose!!! So he has now set a presedent that will allow any fuck who gets elected (either properly or by election theft), appointed, or whatever and becomes POTUS who wants the powers of a war time president to go out and start a war specifically in order to get those powers.
As Bu$h has rubbed everyones' noses in the fact, a wartime president can and will allow themselves extraordinary powers above and beyond those of a president who is not in the midst of a war while in office (or in Bu$h's case above and beyond that Goddamned piece of paper we commoners refer to as the Constitution itself.) So what's to keep every fucking president we have from here on out from starting a war, just so they can grab more power? The answer to that question lies in the statute of the Geneva Conventions that prevents us (or any other country) from attacking a soverign nation unless it is through a resolution passed by the Security Council of the United Nations or in self defense in response to an attack until the matter can be reviewed by said Security Council (no pre-emptive or preventitive wars.) Violation of the Geneva Conventions rules regarding pre-emptive or preventitive war is the most serious war crime on the books!!! Which brings me to the obvious question. Why IN THE FUCK aren't Bu$h, Cheney, Powell, Rice, and everyone else involved in lying us into these two wars (and yes, that also includes members of both the House of Representatives [Nancy Pelosi anybody?] and Senate) being prosecuted RIGHT NOW for this war crime (and all the other war crimes they have committed subsequently?)
You know, it really is difficult to have a nation of laws rather than a nation of men WHEN THE WHOLE FUCKING GOVERNMENT IS COMPOSED OF CRIMINALS!!!
Mr. Obama, you aren't exactly clean as a whistle yourself. It is now time for you to redeem yourself before the nation you stand to represent, the international community, and the God you claim to have faith in. Your work is cut out for you to be sure President Obama. Once you take your oath of office, is it YOUR responsibility to assure that these pseudo-human parasites are investigated and justice is meted out by the stictest possible courts available in the world. That, sir, with all due respect, is your sworm duty!!!
.Remember, when Georgie first took office he told his Daddy that, should the occasion arise, he wouldnt squander the chance to be a war time president as did his father ( in his opinion). He then ignored his Dad's advice that going into Iraq would bog down our military for a decade.....
It is certainly true that Bush/Cheney found a great way to lead our populace by the nose, to wreck havoc upon our constitutional rights, to set about destroying much of what we won through blood , sweat and tears. Apparently naked appeals to patriotism , all the while using the constitution as so much toilet paper, still work with far, far too many of us.
Without meaning to be controversial towards those who supported the candidacy of our new President Elect I see, in his flowery, overblown and almost demagogic speeches, in his appointment of a very confrontational and highly partisan chief of staff, a similar ability to confuse and contain the populace....
True power in a nation always lies with the people of that nation.As Alice Walker noted, the only way people surrender that power is by believing they havent any. We see a nation in wreckage and a population increasingly desperate for someone to lead them out of this wilderness of foreclosures, lost jobs, more war, shrinking retirement funds. So they turned to the guy who promised them flowers and candy , but I suspect that he wont even call them afterwards. Until we understand where the power to change this nation lies, within ourselves, we will remain easily led.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
The simplest way to put it is this, if we do not deal with the wave of criminality that defined the Bush years, there will be another President who will be worse...likely far worse. Perhaps not Obama, but a successor to be sure, likely of the Republican variety. The writing is on the wall, with the criminality of every Republican (and at least one Democratic) President (since Nixon left office) being worse than the last. This is not going away. We can ignore it, like they did after Watergate, allowing Nixon to walk away from the disaster he was responsible for, and even claiming afterward that the system worked. It did not. The system failed miserably. Nixon should have been sent to a federal penitentiary. The same can be said of Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and of course, the redoubtable worst of the worst, George W. Bush.
Nixon was the harbinger of all the criminality that has infected the executive branch since. His being allowed to avoid the criminal consequences of his action put a permanent stain on the Constitution. That stain has only widened. And the only way to remove it is to protect and defend that document vigorously. And thus, George W. Bush, and his gang of thugs should be made to face the full force of the law, and the Constitution. It is time to stop using the Constitution as toilet paper. It's time to not only hold the President to the same standard as the rest of us, it's time to hold him to a higher standard. He is supposed to be the standard bearer, and the final defender of the Constitution. When he is the exact opposite, it is time to recognize the crimes, and deal the punishment that the law demands. The President is an American citizen who's primary purpose is to protect and defend the Constitution, and now that Obama is headed toward the Oval Office, I hope that he will take that oath seriously, and prosecute ALL of the Bush era criminal elites.
Ooops.
You can go even further: Nixon was guilty of treason and should either have been hung or given a life sentence with no possibility of parole. The sight of Nixon, hands tied behind his back, dangling limply from the end of a rope, or sitting in a bare, tiny cell, gray haired, stooped over and dressed in an orange jump suit would have given pause to all the neo-Stalins who came after. On the other hand, a nation perfectly willing to harshly but with complete justification punish even a president probably would not be plagued by Nixons, George Wanker Bushes or Cheesedick Cheneys. They would go into some different form of criminal endeavor, like working on Wall Street, being a wetboy for some intelligence agency or the host of The Ernst Rohm Hour, the top rated "Kill The Cockroaches" far right hate radio program.
.Lest we forget.
The administration with the record for the most prosecutions and the most convictions remains the Reagan administration. That was, of course, when the Democrats still had balls.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Mordechai Shiblikov November 8th, 2008 5:46 pm
"You can go even further: Nixon was guilty of treason and should either have been hung or given a life sentence with no possibility of parole."
Except for one thing, Ford pardoned Nixon.
Lobo Gris
"The writing is on the wall, with the criminality of every Republican (and at least one Democratic) President (since Nixon left office) being worse than the last."
You certainy got that one right (correct.) With the way the repuglican party seems to be headed, I would guess the best likely candidate for 2012 to be Karl Rove himself, with his obvious running mate being...yup, Caribou Barbie.
Arrrrghhhh!!!! It's just too horrible to contemplate and the very thought makes my skin crawl. But hey, there could be a bright point after all! This has the makings of an award winning horror movie. Only trouble would be the rating...XXX due to the raw, absolute sheer terror. Especially if Rove appeared naked! Ahhhhhh!!! If a minor were to see this, he/she could be psychologically scarred for life!
Saw this on the newswire:
Barack Obama’s first appointment as U.S. president-elect comes with an inside-Hollywood connection. His newly chosen White House chief-of-staff-to-be, Illinois congressman Rahm Emanuel, is the older brother of Ari Emanuel, a founding partner of the A-list, Beverly Hills-based talent-management firm Endeavor.
So colorful and well-known a showbiz figure has he become that he inspired the character of the sly Hollywood agent Ari Gold, played by Jeremy Piven, on the HBO series “Entourage.” The role has earned Piven two Emmy Awards.
The younger Emanuel broke away from the talent agency ICM in 1995 to help start Endeavor, which has since grown into one of the leading deal-brokers in the entertainment industry with a client roster that includes Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Jude Law, Hugh Jackman, Christian Bale, Adam Sandler and Steve Carell. Among the stars he personally represents are Larry David, Michael Moore, Sacha Baron Cohen and Mark Wahlberg.
...
Their father is a Jerusalem-born pediatrician who was active in the pre-independence Israeli underground, and their mother was a social activist and onetime Chicago-area nightclub proprietor.
In 2006 Ari Emanuel made headlines when he publicly condemned actor-director Mel Gibson for making anti-Semitic remarks at the time of his arrest for drunken driving. Emanuel called then on others in Hollywood to show their outrage by ”professionally shunning” Gibson.
**I wonder what Ari thinks of his father's comment to the Ma’ariv newspaper that "Obviously he [Rahm] will influence the president to be pro-Israel… Why wouldn't he be [influential]? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floors of the White House."
So in short, we have the son of a racist terrorist as chief of staff of the White House now.
The more things change, the more they don't...
.There are good reasons for criticising the choice of Rham Emmanuel as Chief of Staff. The one you use is both unfortunate and inaccurate.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
The first few months of the Obama administration will show the true colors of this man. If he fails to put up the goods after the cheap talk on the campaign trail he will become the problem. The power of the office allways corrupts. They say in this country that a war criminal should get a pension, there are no penalties for the rich and powerfull in this country. If obama does not punish these people he becomes the problem. We the people who slave in the pits have penalties,get caught with a joint go to jail, get sick with no health insurance go bankrupt. But you can steal millions and billions, send kids to their deaths, spread depleted uranium over Iraq, etc. and There are no penalties. we think we be neading at least one new jail for these folks. The next few months will tell us where we truly stand.
yOU CAN'T TELL ALREADY?.......It is clear that Obama will continue along the same path as Bush. They agree on a lot these days. I expect them to work together over the next two months to extend the war to Pakistan and build up Afghanistan. We are already being set up for this by articles such as the one above. Except for black people, Obama voters will soon regret having believed in this agent of imperialism in disguise...............lizard
Politics has a way of corrupting the most respectable of people.
I discovered this first hand about a decade ago in our own local government. We had a country commissioner who had been in office for about 25-30 years before he was voted out of office. He was replaced by a guy who happened to be a friend of mine (yes, he was a republican) who throughout his life had been a very honest person and contributed greatly to our local community. His first term as county commissioner was fairly unremarkable. He did some road improvement of small, local community roads, enhanced our local water supply system, and did a few other beneficial things to boot. But then, a major road extension was proposed extending from the City of Austin, Tx. to an intersection with a state highway in our county, with the majority being in his precinct. The road was a major four lane arterial road and there was a lot of right-of-way aquisition needed. Obviously, with a road such as this, the property adjoining it was going to skyrocket in value as what was previously basically farm and ranch land would become commercia real estate once the road was complete. (My profession is civil engineering/land surveying) The county commissioner purchased a huge amount of acreage fronting the proposed aignment of this road extension prior to any announcements of the proposed alignment. He purchases this property from landowners (prior to any public hearings or right-of-way purchase, who didn't know the proposed location of this road or the projected value increase of the land) stating he was going to use it for grazing livestock and purchased many acres far below what he know the future values would be. He was investigated for buying this property using insider knowedge (but denied it, even though he had a right-of-way map showing the aignment and adjoining landowners, hanging on his office wall.
I moved away from the area in the midst of the investigation and never did find out what became of the dear commissioner. But...my point is, politics corrupts and regardless of what a person may appear to be, if they are in politics, they are to be suspected of the worst.
Sorry about the poor use of language and spelling...hit the "post" button prior to finishing the post.
.FYI
Use the edit function that appears after posting....I find it useful in erasing some of my most impulsive crap....
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Thanks ardee! I appreciate your suggestion. Actually, at the time I was writing this particular post, it was really late and I was trying to figure out which of the two screens I was staring at happened to be the real one:) You know how it goes I'm sure.
Take care my friend:)
Its time to move forward. Obama should quietly stop using the illegal and unAmerican Bush admin war on terror methods at home and abroad. Let those complicit in the military, state department, CIA and elsewhere quietly retire and replace them with good people. Undo the signing statements... So much to do and undo!
If there is a "just God", Dubya, Cheney and company will get what they deserve.
"but also would be seen by Republicans as highly divisive."
Only Democrats would care about this and that's why they lose in the long run.
truth and reconciliation commission
Don't look for Obama to raise his hand against the criminals who are responsible for the torture and killing of thousands. Obama is a go-along-to-get-along politician who made it to the top by side-stepping major issues. He talks out of two sides of his face at the same time. All the euphoria that now grips the naive will fade to disillusionment and anger when he fails to do anything that would alienate the corporations who funded his campaign.
Unless progressives take back the Congress nothing will change. Term limits and federally-financed elections now!
On the other hand, termination/revoke of charter is an appropriate punishment for a corporation, which is in no way human. Reform the charters of corporations to require that they operate in the public interest and ecologically neutral before any profit may be realized.
Sure hated to see Cindy Sheehan lose to Pelosi. She would have been such a breath of fresh air as well as putting an end to a neocon in sheeps clothing.
Is there someway we can try Pelosi along with the Bu$h cabel? She is as guilty as they are in all aspects, including war crimes!
Don't give up Cindy, you were by far the better choice. You were defeated by ignorant people. There is only so much you can do to educate the masses and you did your best!!!
.Calling our electorate ignorant is a wrong tactic, regardless of the truth of that statement. We need thos efolks if we wish to make changes.
Cindy ran a terrible campaign, underfunded and poorly managed, and against a SF icon...If she couldnt win in that bastion of liberalism where indeed could she win.? I hope she tries again in the future, learns from her mistakes and goes on to have a voice in our governance.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
This was my blog entry a couple of days ago at http://baruchzedblog.blogspot.com
I...we...are faced with an interesting dilemma. Already historical revisionists are beginning the rehabilitation of Bush's legacy. I see it in articles in various publications...columnists saying that Bush had a lot of bad luck, luck of the draw, etc. I say that's nonsense. Sure, there were things that happened which were beyond his control, but the choices he made (and which were made in his name) and the policies established under the Bush presidency ARE Bush's responsibility. Remember where the buck stops? That's supposed to be a metaphor for taking responsibility, but in this case it's been quite literal that Bush has allowed himself and enabled his friends to abscond with hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars, from criminally negligent contract fulfillment in the war, to the disastrous bailout. In fact the list of bad choices, and the list of out and out corrupt deeds, is too long to even list here. Bush is a christofascist, seeking to impose his religion on others, while marrying government to corporations whose only motive is profit. Personally I would like to see Bush reviled by history. I'd really like to see him and other members of his administration prosecuted, some of them internationally.
The dilemma is that in the interest of accountability, it is too easy to be vindictive and hateful. "You become what you hate" seems to be a truism, so there is great risk in pursuing justice in this case because there IS so much anger. Of course we all have a right to feel angry, and that energy can be used in a constructive way, but it could easily energize vendetta, which is not what we need as a country or as a world.
The election did issue a mandate, and it did move the country in terms of racism, but it did not heal all the wounds and divisions that exist. There is still an ideological chasm between the so-called left and right. Within the Republican party there is still a will to enforce the christofascist agenda. Just because they lost this election doesn't mean they have given up, or will do so. It could mean just the opposite; an energized christofascist coalition of forces.
It behooves us to NOT polarize, and at the same time to be vigilant in watching and exposing those who would foist theocracy and even more extreme classism on this country.
It is also clear that the radical right is continuing their war against people who do not fit into the heterosexual mold. We saw a number of anti-gay initiatives approved at state levels by voters in this election. It's safe to hate and oppress queer people. After Prop 8 (the anti gay/lesbian constitutional amendment in California) passed in California, the very next day at a rally against Prop 8 a cop beat up someone at the rally. When an initiative legalizes discrimination, legalized scapegoating (a la the third reich) it grants tacit permission to violate the scapegoated class in other ways. We will see an increase in hate crimes against sexual minorities as a result of these initiatives. In fact there has been an increase in hate crimes against sexual minorities steadily throughout the Bush presidency, because his administration silently sanctions such hatred and oppression. Bush stands for violence, for domination, so the implied message to his followers is "It's ok to beat up and kill queers."
There is a lot of healing needed for our species.
We have "Xmas" for the holiday---how about "Xofascist" for the reactionary political designation??
"Christ" is that thing which humans can have under special conditions of Love, dedication and, perhaps, a little luck, but which corporations cannot have because they are not human, and killers cannot have because they are not moral.
As far as keeping the wheels on this electoral victory and cleaning up the mess, the most potent things I've ever seen are, "Pursue an offender only to show him the way" from LaoTzu; the Golden Rule; "Love Conquers All"; and "Vengence is mine, sayeth the Lord".
Technically, though, I think that still leaves dunce caps and banishment...
That Erik Price, CEO of Blackwater claims to be a born again Christian says it all. Imagine that, a man who professes to follow the Prince of Peace owns a company that specializes in kiling people.
"Born-again" killers...must have been a breech birth.
Their understanding of the teachings of Jesus, the Christ, is incomplete...they should read the New Testament over and over again--for comprehension.
Frankly Snydley, from my observations of "born again" Christians (and I live in what seems to be the headquarters of their massive domain), these folks believe first and foremost in the Old Testement with a few referrals to the New. Regardless of the text they happen to refer to though, they will always pick and choose the parts and pieces that justify (at least in their minds) whatever actions or activities they happen to be involved with at any given point in time. One more thing to point out...it seems that "born again Christians" believe that simply because they have "accepted Jesus Christ as their personal lord and savior", they can commit any act, no matter how vile or heinous (such as murder, torture, lieing, stealing, spousal battery, etc.) and be automatically forgiven (which may explain why so many "Christians" seem okay with the death penalty, war and even lieing to start one, election theft, judging others' morality, and so on.) They have no idea whatsoever of the meaning of the words hypocracy or dogma, and you can easily talk about religion with them, religions being Catholisism, Islam, Hindu, or Buddhism (or the branches of protestant Christianiy other that the one they belong to.) They don't consider Christianity a religion because to them, it is the undeniable truth and they consider themselves and the bible factually correct beyond any doubt whatsoever. The one thing I find rare in people that claim to be Evangelical Christians is compassion for others, love for those different than themselves, willingness to share with those less fortunate than they happen to be (because they are presumed to be lazy or are being punished by God for sins they have committed), and forgiveness of others' mistakes.
As Mathama Gandhi said, "I like your Christ. I don't like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ."
I do wish to qualify the above as I do not believe that it applies to all persons of the Christian faith, but rather seems to be limited to the fundementalist and evangelical Christians.
Bush, Cheney and the rest of that criminal cabal need to spend the rest of their natural lives behind bars as war criminals.
Anything less condones their behavior, and leaves the door open for another administration to do more of the same someday.
So what if the Repugs dont like it, and it is divisive? How many republicans voted for Obama anyways?
fuck the torturers!
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
In nearly any other nation in the in the world, the indictment and prosecution of dozens in the of Bush administration - including Bush himself, would be uncontroversial and widely regarded as necessary.
Alternatively, as in South Africa or Nicaragua, a truth and reconciliation omission would convene, although it would be hard to argue for this in the US since most of those harmed were outside our borders.
But unfortunately, no other nation (except perhaps Israel) has the dogma of divine exceptionalism that dominates USAn thinking.
The dogma of exceptionalism requires a doctrine of infallibility regarding the US Presidency - exactly like the Pope, except the pope doesn't have the most powerful nuclear-armed military on earth.
And most sadly of all, most of the industrial world goes along, to get along, with the US and it's vile doctrines.
So don't expect any legal action against Bush, don't expect the US to ever be a signatory of the ICC, and don't even expect any Pinochet-type actions by European nations against Bush.
So, for these reasons, I am very pessimistic that, barring the initiative and action of a private individual, Bush will ever see justice.
Quite perceptive and most accurate appraisal, thanks for it...A damn shame huh!
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
USAn November 8th, 2008 5:26 pm
"So, for these reasons, I am very pessimistic that, barring the initiative and action of a private individual, Bush will ever see justice."
I wouldn't expect to see a successful prosecution by an individual either. After Viet Nam a group of veterans attempted to sue Robert McNamara who was Secretary of Defense during much of the war. The court ruled that an official in the U.S. government could not be sued for their actions and the decisions they made while acting in an official capacity.
Unfortunately the one remedy we had, the impeachment of Bush, which would have gone a long way towards bringing justice and restoring our reputation in the world was taken off the table by Nancy Pelosi to cover her own crimes.
Lobo Gris
I would love to see members of the Bush administration prosecuted for their crimes in office. I would support it. Do I expect it? When pigs fly.
This will be the president of dashed hopes. His choice of chief of staff says it all. Obama will be a president with a very cold heart toward Palestinians and muslims in general. He will foster war and attempt to revive American imperialism. The people will go back to getting fat while patting themselves on the back for having elected a mulato and will forget, as usual, the world misery being created in their name. The people, as usual, will support presidential criminality. It is the American way.........Obama is a typical American. This is evident already. Expect many bad things will come.I feel sorry for all you good people and your misplaced hope..................lizard
t_g
I can't see Bush, Cheney, Rice, Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, et al being prosecuted anywhere in the world. Simply because the USA is a global empire, what they say, goes. So, even if a rogue lawyer in Spain, Germany, UK or anywhere else would dare to take action, it'd fail. As it already did in Germany - against Rumsfeld, I think.
Unfortunately the US population is dumbed down to the point, where they think that their government is above the law and un-prosecutable (is this word a Bushism??). They can't see that what they did is wrong. Illegal. Simply awful. They believe in their superiority. And right (god given, of course) to do anything, anywhere, to anyone.
Truth and reconciliation? With whom? The Afghanis? The Iraquis? The Latin Americans? The Cubans? Palestinians? South East Asians? With whom exactly????? Is there anyone in the world your government hasn't slighted at one time or other? Especially the last mob!
No, I don't think they'll have any inconvenience in their remaining miserable little lives... Alas, President Obama will just toe the line. Maybe not a hard-line, but nevertheless, the line drawn up by big corporations, churches and all the police/surveillance/spy/etc. agencies of your "land of the free and brave"
Torture.
These right wing religious pals of Bush have had 7 years to build a nasty torture gang stalking spy network while using the veil of law enforcement and the IAFF/EMS first responders as trustworthy leaders.
Imagine if you will , a massive group of ground surveillance teams of people in cars who's purpose is to keep tabs on a potential terrorist suspect , or , some one in the community that they want to destroy.
Step 1. Start the gang stalking surveillance.
This form of group stalking is designed to torture the victim by intruding on every facet of his life, 24/7 . And make the victim painfully aware.They use huge numbers of regular people to hide what they are doing. Sound, noise, electronic spying and phone taps to know who you talk to and why.This is organized and with warrant less wire taps , it is easier now than ever.
Read on line about Cointel Pro Gang Stalking used by the CIA FBI.
Step 2. Start causing the victim to react to the surveillance.This is called sensitizing. This will also cause the victim to start acting irrationally.
Step 3. A campaign of Lies and character Assassination coupled with the now irrational behavior give the community groups a real suspect.
Step 4. Cause financial destruction and work problems.
step 5. Total sum result is the destruction of a person and his ability to support his family.
These freaks are prepared to sustain the surveillance for years to reach the result.
These are our finest community Christians, hard at work.
Trust me when I tell you, IAFF stickers, Support Trooper Stickers, Sherrif Stickers, Jesus fish symbols , on hundreds of cars around me 24/7 for 8 months.
All supported and led by Fire Trucks and EMS ambulances sirens blaring on my movement throughout 5 county's.
This my friends is Bushs security spy network hard at work all over the country.
Make suspects, build your community watch surveillance network and then the victory, hey you got rid of a crazy threat.
Thats Torture. American religious Lunatic right wing style . The new spy nation maned by crazy religious torture freaks.
I pray that Obama exposes and puts a stop to these runaway whack jobs.
I want my day in court. Redress of grievances.
I want these unpatriotic frauds exposed, and fired. I want the constitution to be the law of the land.
BornFreeMen
t_g
Bornfreeman: you are right! You Americans - and only you!! - can address the prosecution of these soulless criminals. The world will be watching and cheering you on.
But we are not holding our breaths... As some of them are already decrepit old men, like Cheney, even if the prosecution and indictment is posthumus: good on you lot! Just do it!
Thanks t_g
My story is bazaar and true. I know that there are thousands of Americans being tortured around the country.Some may not even be aware that they are being used for practice. Spy practice ,innocent victims and clueless community people unaware of how they are being manipulated, how sick does that sound.
BornFreeMen
"Mordechai Shiblikov November 8th, 2008 5:46 pm
"You can go even further: Nixon was guilty of treason and should either have been hung or given a life sentence with no possibility of parole."
Except for one thing, Ford pardoned Nixon.
Lobo Gris"
Yes, sure, grey matter, and all that is [supposed] to be found between our ears, but with that said, and that's only if I'm understanding 'lobo gris' correctly, well, the above is bs. Why is it bs? Because [we] can't legally act against the U.S. Constitution and U.S. Bill of Rights, Intl laws, treaties and conventions the U.S. govt has ratified and therefore rendered [supreme law of the land] in and for the U.S.A. itself; and, while there's more, part of it importantly consists of the first oath of all U.S. military members. What is their first oath made with regards to? It is NOT to the president, the idiot acting as president hegemon, or to idiots, and far worse, in Congress, etcetera; it instead [is] to the LAW.
We have laws that are damn hellbent, gangsterism, etcetera, like persecuting people for consuming some of Nature's natural substances, f.e., but we also have laws that are definitely right and must always be heeded. We apply the former and don't live by the latter; we live by the bad, and not by the good! This sh*t "human way" of irresponsibility and callousness, ... "for extra icing" on ... life, liberty, justice, and so on, and, "man", do "they" like to [ice] this off; "dead cold", soul-[less], even. Yeah, "the they", the hypocrite and hegemon elites, and all of their supporters and "incidental" profiteers, all like to ice life as much as they can and they've gotten away with a hellish much; but they're to always be opposed! That calling never ceases; it's always present, even if or when the majorities of voters act and think like disneyland idiots.
So while Pres. Ford, a traitor, "pardoned" traitor Nixon, we, The People, don't have to hold to this hellbent criminal decision; but if we were to pursue, assuming, let's hypothetically dream, that we really could, then NOT only Nixon. LBJ, and Ford, too! And how many have sided with all of this criminality in U.S. politics [ever since]? I know of no members who've voiced a single word about these historical, but recent enough, crimes with the U.S. govt; no members of the "body politic".
Legally, we don't need to abide by criminal and unjust decisions! But we need a govt that's truly for justice, against hypocrisy and hegemony, and so on, first; and we ain't getting that anytime in the near future, as we can already see, while those not seeing this, yet, will, some will anyway, come to SEE. Hopefull, Obama, as Pres., will prove that I'm mistaken, but I definitely won't be "holding my breath".
There is NO legal obligation to uphold criminal and unjust govt decisions and actions!
England's pretty much always been bad, but these U.S. govt or political "leaders" make Benedict Arnold appear almost like a [saint]! He didn't betray anyway, really; he was just a spy against fellow citizens sent by the same originating country, which should have stuck to itself, instead of seeking to stretch in sort of Roman Empire ways; but that wasn't really his fault, so he was just loyal, [some]what dumb I suppose, but still loyal. If a U.S. soldier acted in analogous terms today, then he or she would be treated like a [hero]; and both would have worked for hegemony and hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy and hegemony; when aren't they the rule, always criminal, but also always "the rule"?
The "elites" say, send in the U.S. military superpower, after CIA and "Economic Hit Men" fail, or NED, instead of CIA, switching back-and-forth, perhaps, and operationally; ya know, all of that crap. They say or rule to send in the U.S. military, for it's of really no cost to them, their cies pay virtually no income taxes and taxpayers will "pick up the bill" anyway, so "heh, what the heh, the they may as well profit from this and each new opportunity that seems profitable; n'est-ce pas?!".
MikeCorbeil November 9th, 2008 12:50 am
"Yes, sure, grey matter, and all that is [supposed] to be found between our ears, but with that said, and that's only if I'm understanding 'lobo gris' correctly, well, the above is bs."
My only point was that once Ford, who was then president, pardoned Nixon, no court of law in the country could prosecute him.
Lobo Gris
Continuing my first post just below, or above, depending on the chrono. order readers employ:
Grey matter?
How many people really have any respectably measurable amount of anything really significant between their damn ears? I wonder; it's a real "head scratcher". Streets are much better teachers, but then there are plenty of morons (violent "crazies", ...) on the streets, too; dangerous place, one for "always watch your back (jack)" ruling to live by, but if you do, then you get by, develop fast intuition, and so on (you learn to look for tables to hide under and fast, when intuition triggers the search). You can learn to "smell out" charlatans and fast, if you're [a-tuned] to [reality].
Like I've said before, it's time to get off of the damn school benches! School benchers should spend eternal field days (from school) at disneyland, where there's really nothing of noteworthy good to speak of; well, besides some eateries, a pub (adult side, and where you get to exchange with also and understandably depressed U.S. population), and the long enough walk-way around some damn man-made lake or pond, not quite natural, but a decent walk anyway. Oh, they also have some lawns and a few trees there; mustn't forget. Must be a few birds in those trees, once in a while anyway; too. Heh, it may possibly become one of the last places where we can still see some [natural] things; some.
They developed all of that sh*t disney just for a pub, a walk-way, some eateries, a few trees (and birds, if they haven't all been killed off, yet), and some lawn? Sh*t; could get that for free in wilderness. I never paid a dime to hike up Mount Washington, the Adirondacks, ... and so on, except for incidentals; like fuel to get there (and back, of course), food, clothing on my back, ya know, ordinary stuff. At disney, ya gotta pay $20 to get in so that you walk a little, eat a bit (for $10 or $20 more), hit the pub for a brew (also pay there) and talk with some fellow U.S. citizens, if you happen to be one, and take a "free" walk on pavement around a damn man-made pond that has a "funny" goose or swan (also fake, of course) boat.
This must be the country of the north that the mother of Jesus spoke of in her third apparition at Fatima, when she didn't specify Russia or the USSR, but some unspecified hellbent northern country, which the U.S. has clearly made itself to [be]. Or else she was more-or-less speaking of Eastern and Western "Establishments"; the "elites" of West and East, both (those schmucks). They do work together, now and then; gangsterism, ya know.
I forget who this was, perhaps Socrates, but long ago one philosopher said (I learned in 1984-85 anyway), 'POLITICS IS FULL OF HYPOCRISY'! Iow, always ... beware. Marx was not politician, but a man of "The People"; actually much respected in Roman Catholicism (but usually unstated). We had anti-imperialist, ... Jesus of Nazareth; prophets of the Old Testament who called out for 'just' order of govt, and many more people who contributed their voices in the same vein.
But in 2008, we still do NOT [listen]. We always find excuses to support lesser evils as if they're not of evil veinage. Evil [is] evil; lesser and greater making little difference!
We also had Frederick Douglas, Rev. Martin Luther King Jr, Malcolm X, Louis Farrakan (spelling?), JF and RF Kennedies (though I'm not historian enough to be sure about their full stands). LF was not assassinated, but took a firm stand and made a strong call, and millions followed, [heard] what he was saying, and he was very right; had me a little nervous at first, for I'm white and certainly not racist, but launched my becking plea in this regard, among surely other people having done the same, and he also [heard] us. He had an [open ear] for us, and if he hadn't, then it's not like I could particularly blame him; but he did hear us, and we awfully guilty.
"Blessed be the peace makers", which also, inherently, means "blessed be the justice makers". We need justice; it [is] the foundation for peace to really exist! If we call for peace, but not for justice, then our words are [empty]! It is why the Franciscan order of RC's stated this principle in terms of missionary vow! No real justice; no real peace!
Here's a little "poetry" for you to digest and absorb. I'm poet and you don't know it; but neither do I. Maybe we'll both get to learn something new in this sense; maybe (hmmm?).
But the U.S. refuses to wake up and "leads" the rest of the world to ... the Gehanna! And you know what? I don't feel ready to be led to the Gehanna! No-way, dude! It does not sound like a comfortable place to me! Yuck, muck, and sh*t, like "count me out", svp. Ya know what I mean, "man"?!
Ya know, like I'm one of those many "street bums", but have no desire for Gehanna; ya know. Send all of the bureaucrats there; it'd be fitting.
I recognize truth in what BornFreeMen says, but unless you have experienced it firsthand, what he says will sound paranoid and not credible. Thus will these techniques continue to be applied against individuals.
"Ancient Mariner November 9th, 2008 1:10 am
I recognize truth in what BornFreeMen says, but unless you have experienced it firsthand, what he says will sound paranoid and not credible. Thus will these techniques continue to be applied against individuals."
WHAT DID BornFreeMen say? Let's recap.
"bornfreemen November 8th, 2008 8:25 pm
Thanks t_g
My story is bazaar and true. I know that there are thousands of Americans being tortured around the country. Some may not even be aware that they are being used for practice. Spy practice, innocent victims and clueless community people unaware of how they are being manipulated, how sick does that sound."
YES, THERE have been actual sociological studies on this, and I had some bookmarked, but lost my hard drive in August and ... much along with that. However, treatments or [mis]treatments in U.S. prison system(s) has been pscyho-sociologically or socio-psychologically studied and as of decades ago, just that the information has always been very ... like [censored]. We also have GWoT-era proof, but I forget the U.S. citizen's name, the victim; however, we had decades-old socio-psychological studies or a study performed by a university in the U.S. and the study exposed real torture and so on, too. The GWoT-era man is ... like [gone], he's in no condition to be able to really speak; he's "cooked", "baked", .... But there's been good reporting on his case and how extremely bad it is.
He's another false-flag victim!
Anyway, and from what I've read, the U.S. has one of the very worst prison systems in the world, on this whole planet! And it's clearly deserved reputation. The Cdn govt is also very guilty against indigenous peoples here, but we barely get any news of this, either.
I had read BornFreeMen's post before posting anything myself, and believed he's NOT joking, but the post by 'Ancient Mariner' reminded me, so now I post on both. Yes, I'm afraid that they're not mistaken! Blood cultism evidently is of the West's making; always reminds me of Rome, even if I never lived there (only being through readings).
Are BornFreeMen and 'Ancient Mariner' anything like Frederick Douglas, by any chance? I like Fred.; very much. The man speaks truth; as I see it. Iow, we have to "cut out" the disneyland bs and get straight about the "sh*t" and that it is "sh*t". Not for this life, I suppose; but I have dreams now and then.
And ya know what, the streets teach that even BFM and AM people can be infiltrators, spies, .... That's how much real people of the streets must watch their or our backs; we must always be watchful! It's never-ending; it's always a dizzying "affair". You always have to meet, face-to-face, discuss, and so on; trust only builds ... after [time]. "Ya never know"; there are always predators and must be wary of them. We can misjudge some, but not others; and it's struggle, you don't want to misjudge, but also don't want to be caught "off guard". Oh, ... troubles.
This world is more difficult than it is easy!
I understand business, dealing with people on streets, and more, but "always watch your back (jack)"! I'm not of violent streets order, not aggressive in any real sense, but been there and know that predators are there. I know; have dealt with some; thankfull not too many.
BFM and AM, however, posted in terms that speak of the U.S. prison system being rotten and yes, there have been expert socio-psycho. or psycho-socio. studies of this system and [proving] that it's very BAD!. It's extremely unjust!
I already knew that it was unjust, but until I read those socio-... whatever studies, I didn't realize how bad the system really is; and torture, yes, that's part of the "picture"!
"Americans" cause me to like the Taliban! The only things I didn't like about them was oppressive treatment of women's rights for educ., etc., and overly punishing people for farming poppies; a [medicinal] plant, if we only know to use it properly (it's a pain-killer and effectively works, f.e.)! Other than for this, the Taliban look actually great, against or vs "Amricans". At least the Taliban are people who hold to their words; they [are] of honour, just that I disagree with some of their ways (but I want to talk with them about those matters [myself], no need of the rest of you disnelanders!). (NO, I don't want the rest of you morons talking with the Taliban about these other matters; I can do that myself, with NO hypocrisy, hegemony, etc.!)
Yes, I do like much about the Taliban. Sorry to disappoint you, but you make the Taliban look [good]! Feisty bunch they are! They have real [spirit] (I just have a couple of things I want to talk with them about; ya know, just friendly streets talk. Like, f.e., "heh, guys, do you mind getting real with" this or that other issue, ya know; like, I think you're exaggerating your religious beliefs and not thinking about them carefully enough, is all. Oops, might get me decap'd, but heh, better than being "treated" by the West!)
Yes, you have me loving the Taliban far more than YOU! (I just have a couple of issues I want to talk with them about; but they have you "beat hands down").
Obama has said that he isn't going to go after the Bush administration, and in four years or eight years they and their Nazi agenda will be back.
FREE AMERICA
REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY
The author writes: "Although Obama is likely to ban waterboarding and other aggressive techniques soon after taking office, prosecuting administration officials not only would be legally challenging because legislation has granted them immunity but also would be seen by Republicans as highly divisive."
I remain very hopeful that positive change will indeed take place under the leadership of Barack Obama. American citizens have finally had enough of the Bush administration's heavy-handed grab for dictatorial power as well as their total mismanagement of domestic and foreign policy.
Closing Guantanamo and banning the practices of water-boarding and other forms of anti-human aggression would be a very, very good start. However, I don't think that Obama should care too much that Republicans will see positive change as being divisive. After all, nothing could be less positive or more divisive than the criminal blunders and critical errors made by George W. Bush during the darkest eight years in American history.
Per the graphic (footnote): Why would the CIA use cellophane; isn't cellophane waterproof?
And waterboarding isn't "simulated" drowning, its slow-motion drowning, but real drowning nonetheless.