Burning of Tapes Is Like Watergate All Over Again
When a fire broke out in Vice President Dick Cheney’s ceremonial office earlier this month, reporters quipped that someone must be burning the videotapes of the CIA interrogation of two al-Qaida detainees.
The joke was an allusion to the administration’s admission that the CIA videotapes had been destroyed. The videotapes reportedly showed the harsh interrogations and water boarding of the prisoners in secret prisons abroad.
One has to wonder what other forms of torture U.S. agents shamefully adapted as our own in their unfettered drive to question prisoners.
The New York Times reported that the pros and cons of destroying the tapes had been discussed by former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales and Harriet Miers, both former White House counsels; John Bellinger, then a lawyer for the White House’s National Security Council; and David Addington, chief of staff to Cheney.
The order to destroy the tapes was authorized by Jose Rodriguez, former chief of the CIA’s National Clandestine Service, according to The Associated Press.
U.S. District Court Judge Henry Kennedy had ordered the government not to destroy any evidence of mistreatment or abuse of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, but there is a question of whether the order applied to other secret CIA prisons overseas.
This whole episode shows why the administration sends suspects to notorious foreign prisons: The American people have no power to see that they are treated decently. Who in this administration approved this disgrace on America? President Bush told a news conference that he did not know of the existence or destruction of the tapes until he was briefed Dec. 6 by CIA Director Michael Hayden. Bush seemed to have no concern that he had been kept in the dark about such consequential matters.
Meantime, the Senate and House intelligence committees - notably lax in their oversight duties - are now getting in the act. The top members of those committees are reportedly angry that they were not fully informed about the contents of the tapes or about their destruction.
Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-Texas, chairman of the House panel, has threatened to subpoena Rodriguez and the CIA’s acting general counsel, John Rizzo. They did not show up at a scheduled hearing Dec. 18.
Sen. Jay Rockefeller, D-W.Va., chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has said that news of the videotape destruction “was extremely disturbing to me.”
Rockefeller said he has pushed for a full investigation of the CIA’s detention and interrogation programs for years.
Now he says he wants a complete chronology about the tapes and why they were destroyed, adding: “We must get to the bottom of it.”
White House officials have refused to discuss who gave the order to destroy the tapes on grounds that any comment would interfere with the Justice Department investigation. Having the Justice Department investigate this matter is like having the fox guarding the chicken coop.
A week ago, Judge Henry H. Kennedy appeared sympathetic to the Justice Department’s request for the court to back off until the department has completed its investigation.
Justice Department officials said they could not predict how long their joint inquiry with the CIA would take.
David Remes, a lawyer for the detainees at Guantánamo, says destruction of the tapes may have violated Kennedy’s court order.
The case has a whiff of the Watergate scandal that deposed Richard Nixon from the presidency in 1974. For example, the idea that the administration is investigating itself is strange. In Watergate, that strangeness led to the appointment of an independent prosecutor to investigate.
Newly confirmed Attorney General Michael Mukasey has demonstrated which side he is on by refusing to turn over requested documents to the congressional panels. He also is on record that the Constitution puts the president above the law - and that he does not know whether water boarding constitutes torture.
Where does the administration find such people so lacking in a moral compass or even an understanding of the constitutional powers of the presidency? Bring back Sen. Sam Ervin, D-N.C., and Rep. Peter Rodino, D-N.J., the late Watergate-era lawmakers who believed in the rule of law and relentlessly dug out the truth.
Thomas can be reached at hthomas@hearstdc.com.
Copyright © 2007, The Modesto Bee
“Where does the administration find such people so lacking in a moral compass or even an understanding of the constitutional powers of the presidency?”
In every aspect of their being they run afoul of any moral bearing. They are despicable and have greatly stained our history, which is to say there still is time to rein in these war criminals, but time is running out. Where indeed are the statesmen we so sorely need? Without them we are simply doomed to failure. But what do I know?
“The New York Times reported that the pros and cons of destroying the tapes had been discussed by former Attorney General Alberto Gonzales…”
Doncha just gotta love fair and balanced assessment?
In 1975 I lived in Spain during the final months of the Franco fascist dictatorship. As a sign that the powers that were were open-minded, newspaper kiosks had for sale a series of books with titles such as “Pro y contra Che Guevara”. One title in particular had me gobsmacked, as we Brits say - “Pro y contra Adolf Hitler”.
There is no pro destroying those tapes. Take it from someone who lived under a fascist dictatorship, no matter how terminally rickety.
Unlike Watergate, however, Congress has not the will to bring justice to bear.
The White House press corpses should throw rotten tomatoes at Dana Perino.
Not only worse than tricky Dick, but this slime will get away with it. Absolutly the worse presidential cabal ever in our history. Even reagan didn’t destroy evidence, he only tried to hide it.
It’s so depressing. Public opinion is so easily led in America. Both by the left and the right. The PTB have now got all you “bleeding heart lefties” focusing on not what Abu Zubadayah said but how it was coerced from him.
Yes I abhor torture - it’s a war crime, and this is a war. And yes, there will come a time when the perpetrators who have dragged America down in to the gutter will hopefully be made to answer for their multiple crimes. But what Abu Zubadayah said is far more important. And may hold the key to who really recruited those 911 hijackers. Ask yourselves CUI BONO from an American invasion of the region? Which feudal monarchy benefits most from the maintenance of the status quo? And which western ‘royal family’ was and still is, closest to them.
The ’so-called’ left in USA, via their media mouthpieces are playing you all for fools, while the right pretends to play political jujitsu with the ‘torture’ issue.
Until you all look very closely at the many unanswered questions that surround 911 you are doomed. And don’t expect the so-called leftist media to help. They’re bought and paid for.
I can’t go on here and explain about how that major ‘ethnic’ centre of influence in USA life and and those other national players who have a vested interest in a continuation of the status quo in the M.E. because I’ll get accused of being an irrational anticementist.
Wakey Wakey. You Americans are all in denial and suffering from cognitive dissonance. 911 changed everything. THEY played they hand in public. 3000 people died. CUI BONO? (not some ex-CIA asset living in a cave, I assure you).
There were no tapes. The CIA surely uses the latest in digital tech, which means the info is stored somewhere, probably multiple places. Why, when we know for a fact that no administration in history has ever lied like this one, do we always assume they’re telling the truth when they drop the latest propaganda stupid bomb?
Videotape story pops out the day after the Iran NIE proves Cheney/Bush are lying insane war mongers and criminals of the highest regard. Instead of holding them to account, we’re now focused on something that isn’t even true. Rove, who loves ya babe?
Has anyone provided any hard proof of the existence of said tapes? Are there pics of the tapes being destroyed, or made, or stored? No? So we’re taking the word of… professional liars?
We never, ever learn a thing, do we?
I have always believed there was more on those “tapes” than just our CIA spooks waterboarding Zubadayah. There is some bombshell there that would create far more furor than just another brown face getting the “treatment” in the name of the dubious War on Terror.
Hiding evidence of torture is surely bad enough news for this administration, but nothing they couldn’t spin, twist, revise, and squirm out of. There has to be more than a depiction of waterboarding. My personal feeling is that it is something that Zubadayah said concerning 9/11 during his encounters with the CIA in the black sites. And that’s, I think, the real reason for the tape destruction.
AS always, Helen Thomas, thank you for your continuing courageous work.
as a prior commentator has intimated, we have no proof that the tapes,written records, whatever,,,,,were ever indeed destroyed.
Just as they lie and deceive on everthing else, there is no reason for them to change now.
It is my belief that these phsyco perverts
still have all this material. So that they can watch it and read it, again and again, for thier personal enjoyment
SECRETARY BIRD
which book did you buy?
Washington has become a bottomless pit of greed and corruption. Absolutely nothing good comes from there anymore. They have become the National Sewage Depository. In their ignorance they believe it is wealth.
Unless I am mistaken, the Congressional Judiciary Committee is having Jose Rodriguez testify sometime within the next three weeks. January 16 or 18th?
If Rodriguez spills the beans, and he says that he will if given immunity, the Exodus of rats fleeing DC, will make the one from Egypt look like a cub scout parade. We’ll see if he does testify. As far as giving him immunity goes, he can have that, a quart of Chanel #5 and a bed of roses as far as I’m concerned, because the Bush/Cheney Cartel will be eradicated. The press will have to cover the XXX rated soap opera and Congress will have to impeach them both.
ESOTERICIST - that’s all a little too esoteric - visonary for you, unclear for the rest, all tantalizing openers, no follow-through. What exactly is your point? Try touching something solid as you answer.
“If Rodriguez spills the beans, and he says that he will if given immunity, the Exodus of rats fleeing DC, will make the one from Egypt look like a cub scout parade. ”
He’d likely be found dead before he had the chance to spill the beans..
ESOTERICIST - ECOTERICIST
what exactly is an ‘anticementist’? is it someone opposed to buildings made of cement?
MEDUSA
i don’t think you’ll get an answer…………..
KEM PATRICK
would you buy me a quart of chanel no.5? (i’d be your slave forever if you did….)
“If Rodriguez spills the beans…”
He’s more likely to be a soft construction in boiled beans.
{quote}: “Bush seemed to have no concern that he had been kept in the dark about such consequential matters.”
This is because his handlers - the people who are keeping him and all of the rest of the DC establishment doped up on whatever their drug of choice happens to be - didn’t tell him that he should act shocked and pledge to clean up the CIA.
Helen, you’ve been around this administration too long to give junior credit for being able to have an unscripted thought. I expected better from you.
Don’t forget Lowell Weicker, a Republican who took the side of the Constitution over his party’s interests. There must be a couple like him to take Bush on.
It’s so depressing. Public opinion is so easily led in America. Both by the left and the right. The PTB have now got all you “bleeding heart lefties” focusing on not what Abu Zubadayah said but how it was coerced from him.
Yes I abhor torture - it’s a war crime, and this is a war. And yes, there will come a time when the perpetrators who have dragged America down in to the gutter will hopefully be made to answer for their multiple crimes. But what Abu Zubadayah said is far more important. And may hold the key to who really recruited those 911 hijackers. Ask yourselves CUI BONO from an American invasion of the region? Which feudal monarchy benefits most from the maintenance of the status quo? And which western ‘royal family’ was and still is, closest to them.
The ’so-called’ left in USA, via their media mouthpieces are playing you all for fools, while the right pretends to play political jujitsu with the ‘torture’ issue.
Until you all look very closely at the many unanswered questions that surround 911 you are doomed. And don’t expect the so-called leftist media to help. They’re bought and paid for.
I can’t go on here and explain about how that major ‘ethnic’ centre of influence in USA life and and those other national players who have a vested interest in a continuation of the status quo in the M.E. because I’ll get accused of being an irrational anticementist.
Wakey Wakey. You Americans are all in denial and suffering from cognitive dissonance. 911 changed everything. THEY played they hand in public. 3000 people died. CUI BONO? (not some ex-CIA asset living in a cave, I assure you).
P.S. anticementist is my sarcastic version of antisemitic.
PPS. Conclusion. This wasn’t a war for oil, or Israel, or the military industrial complex, or for Dubya’s ratings, or for the GOP, or against Islam. It’s a war for everybody to SUSTAIN THE STATUS QUO. To keep those in power remaining in power - the only way they know how. It was their last trump card.
PPPS I have two theories as to why the DEMOCRAT controlled congress hasn’t gone after them.
And the war on everyone just gets better for the status quo. Here’s our sort of newer front on the war against humanity; www.africom.mil/
“U.S. Africa Command is focused on creating a staff of specialists to develop long-term relationships with African militaries, not on establishing presence on the African continent or responding to immediate crises, AFRICOM’s civilian deputy told reporters. Officials from U.S. Africa Command are…”
They are still looking for a few good people. Our presence in Africa will not be one of goodwill. president Ding-dong is a threat to us all.
Don’t think for a second that a lot of people aren’t concerned that they will attempt to silence Jose Rodriguez. However, he was the head hog of the CIAs special ops division and likely he will be safe. He’s a very smart and tough cookie who knows everything that has happened, __ all of it.
I have a belief that he’s doing this to save our country, not for himself, or for self preservation. It took awhile to get the ducks lined up and now it’s time to roll the balls. I can also feature he ‘may’ be a good friend of Valorie Plame and Joe Wilson too, and they are going to try to even the score with the Bush gang. They all know how the music is played in DC and they know the dance steps there as well as Rove and Cheney. ___We’ll see if he tells the truths.
How about a pint COCO? That should last until the Methane Gas “burps” in the Arctic, making these conversations moot issues. __ Two ounces maybe?
SUNG 425, Thank you for that link. That is very troubling, especialy afer seeing what goes on over there with child mercenaries as young as ten years old, who are doped up daily and well trained to kill whomever they are ordered to kill. They can use an AK-47, a Uzi or an RPG with the best of them and are so brain washed, they fear nothing whatsoever, not even their own death. I can see Bush and company having troops from Africa prepared to control things here.
Nixon was brought down by the elite for not following orders. A bloodless coup. Congress and the MSM simply followed orders.
Today, what is happening is far more sinister. But the CIA tapes are a red herring folks. What they do not want you to see, you do not see, period. No matter they are destroyed (doubtful) or not. They want you to focus on the tapes, and see the tree and not the forest.
If you accept the ultimate conspiracy theory of 9/11, there would have been no reason to torture anyone, and so there would be no tapes, or if there were, we would find out the questions and answers would be much different than you would expect, and so they would be the smoking gun on 9/11. We may be doing some waterboarding, if so, that is just practice for the homeland critters in the coming war on homegrown terrorism
But remember this, as you scratch your heads and wonder at the madness. In order to do evil men must believe they are doing good. In their minds, the end justifies the mean. So evil actions to achieve a good ending are permitted. This is how men like Hitler and Stalin justified their actions. And so it is today. Bush, Cheney, etc. probably sincerely believe what they are doing is for the good of mankind, if not for us Americans. But when men behave as gods, the critters suffer.
The elite, or establishment, whatever you choose to call them, they are all globalists now, but those in power today are extremists, Christian Zionist Fascists, they prefer force and want to speed up the process to the NWO, so we can only hope the moderates regain control. If they do, you will know it when we hear a lot more about Global Warming, Carbon Tax, etc, and that will mean the Global Secular Socialists have regained control. The battle being fought won’t be on MSM.
KEM PATRICK
during the iran - iraq war there were boys of the same age going to the front line. this is nothing new……
as for the pint of chanel no.5 - i accept.
MIMI
‘in order to do evil men must believe they are doing good’ and bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. what a load of shit. humanity is a lot further advanced from the times of hitler and stalin. and all the physcological jargon that has evolved from hitler’s days till now would surely guarantee a more stable mentality for the leaders of nations. no, it’s just a case of greed and power. there is no evil, there is no good. there is only GREED, GREED, GREED…………
coco,greed is the only evil,any sin or any crime are all just different manifestations of the same evil=greed.
Personally, I think that the CIA tapes proving torture is not necessary - the detainees usually have physically reminders. It is more who did what and what they said: ie how leading were the questions and how much words were put into people’s mouths. That and what they threatened to do to family members.
CSIS destroyed tapes before the RCMP could look at them for Air India and now the American version of CSIS (ie the CIA) is destroying tapes - making it look very much like there was something on there worth looking at.
esotericist says - Public opinion is so easily led in America.
Yes, Minister provides the best explanation I’ve seen of public opinion polls (this is actually how it is done!):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yhN1IDLQjo
Cognitive Dissonance is the discomfort one feels while holding of two beliefs you, personally, one feels are inconsistent with each other, coupled with the desire to reduce this discomfort by either sacrificing one belief or the other. If one either doesn’t mind holding two contradictory beliefs or one sees the said beliefs as not contradictory, then one experiences no cognitive dissonance.
If one holds the following beliefs:
1. Torture is necessary to keep Americans safe
2. Torturing innocent people is wrong
The easiest way to reduce cognitive dissonance is to perceive the victim of torture as automatically guilty and then go back to tending the plastic flowers in your garden knowing that everything is right and good in the world.
Sometimes it seems as if you are talking about the Saudi Royal family and sometimes it seems as if you are talking about the British Royal family.
RE - Jose Rodriguez
What questions do you expect to be asked of him? An aside - how did he get involved with security for the Athens Olympics - did he do such a good job in Salt Lake City? Did he get any cash in envelopes? Where do the waterboards used for waterboarding come from?
He is more apt to spill the beans if it looks like someone is trying to make him take the fall or if he has already revealed more than he planned to - probably the former before the latter.
RE He’d likely be found dead before he had the chance to spill the beans..
Why kill him if they can discredit him. Killing is only a “plan b” option because it requires a manufactured reason which doesn’t lead to the White House.
RE: unclear for the rest, all tantalizing openers, no follow-through.
That is clearly what it is - openers. Here is a better explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FRVvjGL2C0
RE: what exactly is an ‘anticementist’
Strikes me as “enticement” with “anti” in front and the “en” missing and an “ist” at the end to turn it into a noun.
An anti-enticement would be a disincentive? An anti-enticementist would be like a cross between a dominatrix and Dick Cheney.
RE P.S. anticementist is my sarcastic version of antisemitic.
Hey, I was close. Both involve threats of harming.
RE: This wasn’t a war for oil, or Israel, or the military industrial complex, or for Dubya’s ratings, or for the GOP, or against Islam. It’s a war for everybody to SUSTAIN THE STATUS QUO. To keep those in power remaining in power - the only way they know how. It was their last trump card.
I take “sustaining the status quo” means that it is the home front we should be focusing on and not what is going on in Iraq - that Iraq is just a smoke screen to keep our attention directed elsewhere - sort of like CNN covering Anna Nicole Smith Death rather than Condi Rice and Peter MacKay’s news conference (like Newsworld was doing)?
But why focus only one one thing? Much of what they do elsewhere, they want to do at home as well.
RE: “Bush seemed to have no concern that he had been kept in the dark about such consequential matters.”
Either he is lying or wishes to avoid being in the position of accidentally telling the truth.
RE: especialy afer seeing what goes on over there with child mercenaries as young as ten years old, who are doped up daily and well trained to kill whomever they are ordered to kill
I prefer the term “child soldier” and we should be doing what we can to help them. And whether they kill or become “bush wives” we should remember that this was not their fault. And what about the go-no go pills the British and Americans give their pilots?
RE: They want you to focus on the tapes, and see the tree and not the forest.
Probably - because it puts the blame on the CIA rather than the White House.
RE: In order to do evil men must believe they are doing good.
True. But sometimes “doing good” means doing not as bad as the other guys. Why are we told repeatedly that they torture worse than we do?
RE: Even reagan didn’t destroy evidence
How do you explain his Alzeimers! Seriously, when Reagan was having trouble remembering and more of the workings of government fell to the Vice President - who was he? I think he has a son in office and had a father involved with the same company Karlheinz Schreiber was doing business on behalf of (with money in envelopes) in the 80’s.
And tricky Dick Cheney still has a few tricks up his sleave that the other tricky Dick never learned. If he was not pardoned …
NAYOIBI
i agree with that. do you know why there is so much greed?
BTW all posters: a fun question just now on yahoo: ‘is a recession in our future?’ and ‘a lot is riding on the answer, so pay attention’. phew, if we don’t pay attention then we might never find out if a recession is in our future. so pay attention you lot. it’s all up to you……………
VAUDREE
you cannot spell sleeve………….
coco,yes i think i do know why.
Why, after seven years of lawbreaking, coverups, rewards for criminal or incompetent actions, immunity for all insiders, stonewalling, signing statements, propaganda, cronyism, etc., would anyone expect to see anyone brought to justice and dignity and honor restored to our country? Dream on, our goose is cooked until, if ever, we get some people with principle back in power again. Even then, it will take patience as it takes longer to fix things than to demolish them, and the wrecking crew has done a great job.
Re Spelling - if one were to read Mein Kampf, or even the draft of the Patriot Act, I hope one gains more from it than whether the words were spelled right or not.
Then again, it shows you read it.
RE - is a recession in our future?
Marshall McLuhan once said “We don’t know who discovered water, but we know it wasn’t the fish.”
Translation: you are probably already in one - at least it looks that way when I look at the economic pond on the other side of the 49th parallel.
Why do you think the businesses in Detroit are spending there advertising budget placing adds in the Windsor star?
Back to the CIA tapes. If they got rid of them all, we wouldn’t know that Nixon called Trudeau an Asshole.
Something I read recently which makes mention of Watergate:
But here’s Karlheinz Schreiber: “The story is the payback for money to help someone come to power.” Replete with details: How Franz Josef Strauss dispatched him from Germany to seed right-wingers around the world and eject fakes such as Joe Clark. And where they plotted: the Ritz! They sat around, “And everybody got something,” once Brian took power. Not just contracts but free trade and the rest. We still live with the results. This isn’t worth inquiring into? Watergate was just a piddling break-in.
http://rabble.ca/columnists_full.shtml?x=65642
It seems that political leaders’ competition is more like backroom war that you never know what special measures your rivals will take to surprise you. Since Watergate was exposed, political scandal don’t cease until now. And personally the aftermath is more and more severe. “Bush seemed to have no concern that he had been kept in the dark about such consequential matters.” We folks should read the book: Worse Than Watergate: The Secret Presidency of George W. Bush at http://www.dealstudio.com/searchdeals.php?deal_id=75432 The reason why Bush has no concern you will find from it.
Dana Perino is a snake.
At least Scott McClellen had a concious and wrote that book.
Those thousands of kids in Africa who are taken from their parents and put into military schools, are not the same as what we saw in the mid-east. These are boys as young as seven years old, but mostly ten to twelve years of age and as they grow to adulthood they are like zombies.
They are very well trained, just like any military army. They are taught to kill and lose compassion for humans or any life. They are ordered to execute captives and they do it without blinking an eye. They have little or no concepton of death, even their own. It is like swatting a fly to them.
In addition, they are given some sort of a drug I am unfamiliar with. They have a slit cut into a sholder or an arm and the drug, which resembles black tobacco, is packed into the opening. They then have no fear of anything and don’t even seem to care if they are wounded. This is happpening in several African countries now and there are many thousands of them.
Imagine what Cheney could do with a police force such as that here in America? Of course he has Blackwater, but they earn $700 a day.
Yep, reporters and others “quip” regularly about the so-called burning of these-tapes (while we yak-them-up in here) — but no one seems to realize that the more _any_ on the Left or the Right continues to discuss-them, the more damage is done regards actually stopping the REAL-and-secret covert-abuses this whole Ruse/’leak’ was designed to further-enable…
“Most US questioning/torture of multitudes of ’suspects’ (other than the near-majority of those we ‘treat’ to such tender-attentions while Knowing they are “guilty of nothing-at-all”) is taped/archived — and those tapings will NEVER be available to the courts/public.
The ‘leaks’ about these particular-tapes (and/or the so-called ‘destruction’ of their copies?) was likely a ‘Ruse from onset’ — designed to surreptitiously blunt the American-publics Interest/Protest regards Torture in-general and ‘protective security measures’/loss-of-human-rights, in specific.
Firstly, they (these few ‘tapes’, so leaked/used/publicized — yet ‘unseen’) were of suspects actually/maybe ‘really bad-guys’ [an extreme-rarity among all those tortured secretly and outside-Gitmo since the onset of this ‘GWoT’-nonsense]. Secondly, descriptions of interrogations were such that methods-used were not horribly ‘over-harsh’ — and, obviously (and this-too is somewhat rare among the REAL ‘bad-guys’) it didn’t result in death or disabling-harms to these ass-clowns. Thirdly, the ‘cover-up’/destruction was subsequently couched as ‘to protect the lives of our Patriotic-protectors’ — as if there were actual terrorist-cells/operatives crawling all over the States and ’seeking targets’ (funny how these, if any ‘real-threat’ in the US, seem to overlook all the high-profile practitioners of torture and ME-mayhem around Georgetown, no?).
The intent (and huge-success) of this Mythical tape/destruction scenario is all-about ‘telling a story’ to gullible Americans: “You were under grave-threat, but thankfully noble/faceless-Patriots did your necessary/prudent dirty-work for you, and now you and kiddies are Safe — albeit your heroes (and their brave Admin-bosses facing ‘undeserved/undue criticism for it’) are now at-risk, due to all their regretted-but-required efforts on your-behalf”.
It’s all a red-herring and crafted Mind-Control myth (like so-many before/leading-up-to this one). It is meant to immunize/inoculate your thinking/opinion for the subconscious-acceptance of these neo-Inquisitions, and empower those who do-such for you to receive both your approval-of-same and keeping their anonymity and ‘all details hidden’, to-boot.
After-all, torture leading to death/dismemberment (of even any bystander, anywhere — regardless such silly-niceties like ‘probable-cause, evidence, habeas-corpus, etc.’), is supposedly just “fraternity initiation” levels of ‘needful security’ for American Interests — not any ‘Human Rights Violations’, at-all. Right?
These people are past-Masters of such subterfuge and Stunts, and we ALL know this — so why does it keep working so damn-well as Talking-Points for the Media and ‘unwashed’ here?”
“We may be doing some waterboarding, if so, that is just practice for the homeland critters in the coming war on homegrown terrorism
But remember this, as you scratch your heads and wonder at the madness. In order to do evil men must believe they are doing good. In their minds, the ends justifies the means. So evil actions to achieve a good ending are permitted. This is how men like Hitler and Stalin justified their actions.”
Well said…
Hitler/Stalin worse examples than FDR/Lincoln/Cheney — but I took/agree-with your Point…
Americans are so easily-manipulated, it amazes me we haven’t ‘reached this crossroad’ ere-now. Jefferson stymied Adams/Co, Jackson the banks-then, Abe (like JFK, much-later) had to be shot, JDR partially-succeeded with other Robber-Barons until ‘bull-moose’-Teddy, PrescottBush/Co was stopped by Butler, ’socialism’ by ‘NewDeal’-compromises, ColdWar-mythos by Russia-itself, etc., et al. Lots of ‘luck’ to-date, methinks.
But the current March of Fascism/’NWO’ is much better-grounded/Funded in Mythos, and well under-way, now.
[Good-luck to us all!]
Dear coco - which book did I buy?
Are you kidding? No one in their right minds bought any of the “Pro y contra” books, especially not the Che Guevara one. We assumed the news vendor was a secret policeman, or at least a police informer. One of the inconveniences of living under a dictatorship, I’m afraid.
esotericist December 30th, 2007 6:05 pm …I like your approach. AND, I would also like to follow through on your “final” PPPS. If not here, ……ignotzle@windstream.net
ESOTERICIST
i knew that. i was just being funny……..
SECRETARY BIRD
and with my question to you too………
Our anger at conservatives makes us reactionary, authoritarian and conservative. We become them. Elect liberals, vote Greens.
“Elect liberals…”
Identify a few [that have won a nomination and have a ’snowflakes chance in hell’ of actually-winning something, I mean].
Hi coco
I assumed you were
Mind you, I would have liked to find out how long the “pro” chapter was in the Adolf Hitler book.
A happy new year to you and all at CD!
RE - They are taught to kill and lose compassion for humans or any life.
So they are a lost cause? The use of the term “mercenary” makes them look like free agents or beyond our help. It also makes us seem them less as victims (they were kidnapped) and more as someone who should be raised to adult court.
Have you heard of Ishmael Beah - the author of “A Long Way Gone: Memoirs of a Boy Soldier”?
http://www.cbc.ca/thehour/video.php?id=1538
So what do you think that Ishmael Beah is doing now? Do you think that he is still on cocaine mixed with gunpowder killing people? No, he is a peace activist trying to help child soldiers!
Why do they used child soldiers? Because children are even easier to manipulate than adults! Because kids need a family - so there becomes emotional dependence on the kidnappers.
BTW - did you know that Blackwater trained Canadian soldiers? There was an uproar about it in Question Period:
From Wednesday, October 24, 2007 (click on calendar):
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the federal government has awarded contracts to Blackwater, a private security company, to train soldiers who are currently in Afghanistan. This company, which employs former soldiers and police officers who have been compared to mercenaries, has been embroiled in controversy since its officers killed 17 Iraqis, including several civilians, under circumstances that remain unclear.
How does the Prime Minister explain that his government has contracted with a private company with highly questionable methods to train soldiers serving in Afghanistan?
Right Hon. Stephen Harper (Prime Minister, CPC): Mr. Speaker, these are contracts for security guard services. We frequently use such services in many federal buildings in Canada and abroad.
The contracts are for security guard services. These people are not engaging in military activities.
Mr. Gilles Duceppe (Laurier—Sainte-Marie, BQ): Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is constantly going on about transparency. Yet the hiring of these private security firms is shrouded in secrecy.
What is the international status of these mercenaries? Whom do they report to, because they have neither civilian nor military status? Do they have the right to take prisoners? Can the Prime Minister clarify the status of these mercenaries his government has hired?
Hon. Maxime Bernier (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the facts are simple. We have hired security guards for the Canadian embassy in Kabul. That is very clear. These people are ensuring the security of the ambassador’s invited guests and they are conducting security operations. They are traditional security guards, not military guards.
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, there is a lot of mystery and secrecy surrounding companies like Saladin and Blackwater. Many of them are suspected of being involved in civil wars and even supporting dictatorships.
Did the government do a background check on Saladin to find out whether it was involved in civil wars in the past or whether it supported dictatorial regimes anywhere in the world? We want an answer.
Hon. Maxime Bernier (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, as I was saying yesterday in the House, these contracts were awarded through a very clear public tendering process, a comprehensive process that respects the rules and legislation.
It is important to point out that these people perform non military duties as security guards. They greet visitors to our embassy in Kabul.
next intervention previous intervention [Table of Contents]
Mr. Claude Bachand (Saint-Jean, BQ): Mr. Speaker, I would like the minister to try again because he did not answer my question. My question is on the mercenaries hired by these companies.
Did he do a background check on these mercenaries? Can he tell us whether any of them were involved in civil wars or supported dictatorial regimes? We have the right to know the answers to these questions. The government has to be transparent and put an end to this secrecy.
Hon. Maxime Bernier (Minister of Foreign Affairs, CPC): Mr. Speaker, the hon. member has forgotten about the last election campaign. We are a government that is in favour of transparency and transparency rules. We have acted accordingly. The first bill we tabled in this House was on accountability.
We believe in transparency and democracy and we respect the rule of law. These contracts were awarded properly through a call for tenders.
http://www2.parl.gc.ca/housechamberbusiness/chambersittings.aspx?View=H&Parl=39&Ses=2&Language=E&Mode=1
Yes Vaudree I have read his book. What a horrible story and it appears that our government is about to use them for mercinaries. Probably the older ones, of say 14 thru 17 years of age.
Click on that link Vaudree offered, absolutely shocking.
I just dont care about this after reading about that Fox report on a South Carolina slaughterhouse where the workers tortured pigs–spray painting KILL on their backs, gouging their eyes out for fun on video.
A human can face greater psychological torment, but pigs are very intelligent–and unlike humans are incapable of being a bad person, they dont deserve to be tortured and killed for an unnecessary diet.
As Tolstoy said, we shall always have war as long as we have slaughterhouses and the same thing applies to torture.
As long as you have S Carolina slaughterhouses and sadistic doctors in the Uk rubbing green tea into the eyes of rabbits, you are going to have blowback.
Socrates talked about it thousands of years ago in plato’s Republic (that meat eating leads to violence against humans)–humans are just slow to catch on.
Helen Thomas is a national treasure!
It would be helpful to see a reasonable definition of “torture” established established to make it more difficult for apologists to weasel out it because it is only “enhanced interrogation”. Here is one reasonable definition.
(n) torture, torturing: the deliberate infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information, cooperation, confession, or for the sadistic pleasure of the torturer, or for any other reason
It would also be helpful if it were more widely pointed out that torture has shown to be not only unreliable, but is counterproductive. The “ticking bomb” scenario is clearly bogus and accepted only by the most gullible among us. Imagine yourself as an innocent swept up by chance, as most detainees obviously were, and held for years and tortured. It is far more likely that the resultant ‘blowback’ recruits people hostile to the US and increases threat potential.
RE: What a horrible story and it appears that our government is about to use them for mercinaries.
If they’ve hired Saladin and Blackwater, they probably already have. Not everyone who works for Saladin and Blackwater is American. The US government won’t actually go into Somalia etc and hire former child soldiers with no other marketable skills - but they will hire private companies who do.
If Blackwater was training the Canadian soldiers (even for something small), it probably means that they also have been training American soldiers. I don’t know in what, but it is probably not in how to operate in strict adherence to the Geneva convention.
And the use of private companies puts a bit of distance between the government and the people the companies they contract work out to hire. Erik Prince doesn’t hire the people himself - but hires people to hire people. Then, if something goes “wrong” (ie we find out what they have been up to), he can fire the person publicly and say that the trouble has been solved.
I just remember what the following was a metaphor for - it is also the way Blackwater operates - I think Blackwater sent the guy home from Iraq to the States, fired him (but did not charge him) and either they or another company picked him up a while later.
re - said he’d fire the driver, and then the next trip the same dam guy was behind the wheel again.
Sorry for butting in, but there is a metaphor in there somewhere.
Yes, Blackwater has been training our miltiary and our various police forces for quite awhile.
Holy! We are new to it and I had thought it a fairly new phenomenon all around.
How long is “quite a while?”
Another question that came to me - when Blackwater trains the American Military do the lines between training and recruiting blur?
UN forces (Canada, USA etc) are supposed to be training the police and army in Afghanistan.
Not sure, but at least for three years, it may be longer.