Smashing Capitalism
Somewhere in the Hamptons a high-roller is cursing his cleaning lady and shaking his fists at the lawn guys. The American poor, who are usually tactful enough to remain invisible to the multi-millionaire class, suddenly leaped onto the scene and started smashing the global financial system. Incredibly enough, this may be the first case in history in which the downtrodden manage to bring down an unfair economic system without going to the trouble of a revolution.
First they stopped paying their mortgages, a move in which they were joined by many financially stretched middle class folks, though the poor definitely led the way. All right, these were trick mortgages, many of them designed to be unaffordable within two years of signing the contract. There were “NINJA” loans, for example, awarded to people with “no income, no job or assets.” Conservative columnist Niall Fergusen laments the low levels of “economic literacy” that allowed people to be exploited by sub-prime loans. Why didn’t these low-income folks get lawyers to go over the fine print? And don’t they have personal financial advisors anyway?
Then, in a diabolically clever move, the poor - a category which now roughly coincides with the working class — stopped shopping. Both Wal-Mart and Home Depot announced disappointing second quarter performances, plunging the market into another Arctic-style meltdown. H. Lee Scott, CEO of the low-wage Wal-Mart empire, admitted with admirable sensitivity, that “it’s no secret that many customers are running out of money at the end of the month.”
I wish I could report that the current attack on capitalism represents a deliberate strategy on the part of the poor, that there have been secret meetings in break rooms and parking lots around the country, where cell leaders issued instructions like, “You, Vinny — don’t make any mortgage payment this month. And Caroline, forget that back-to-school shopping, OK?” But all the evidence suggests that the current crisis is something the high-rollers brought down on themselves.
When, for example, the largest private employer in America, which is Wal-Mart, starts experiencing a shortage of customers, it needs to take a long, hard look in the mirror. About a century ago, Henry Ford realized that his company would only prosper if his own workers earned enough to buy Fords. Wal-Mart, on the other hand, never seemed to figure out that its cruelly low wages would eventually curtail its own growth, even at the company’s famously discounted prices.
The sad truth is that people earning Wal-Mart-level wages tend to favor the fashions available at the Salvation Army. Nor do they have much use for Wal-Mart’s other departments, such as Electronics, Lawn and Garden, and Pharmacy.
It gets worse though. While with one hand the high-rollers, H. Lee Scott among them, squeezed the American worker’s wages, the other hand was reaching out with the tempting offer of credit. In fact, easy credit became the American substitute for decent wages. Once you worked for your money, but now you were supposed to pay for it. Once you could count on earning enough to save for a home. Now you’ll never earn that much, but, as the lenders were saying — heh, heh — do we have a mortgage for you!
Pay day loans, rent-to-buy furniture and exorbitant credit card interest rates for the poor were just the beginning. In its May 21st cover story on “The Poverty Business,” BusinessWeek documented the stampede, in the just the last few years, to lend money to the people who could least afford to pay the interest: Buy your dream home! Refinance your house! Take on a car loan even if your credit rating sucks! Financiamos a Todos! Somehow, no one bothered to figure out where the poor were going to get the money to pay for all the money they were being offered.
Personally, I prefer my revolutions to be a little more pro-active. There should be marches and rallies, banners and sit-ins, possibly a nice color theme like red or orange. Certainly, there should be a vision of what you intend to replace the bad old system with — European-style social democracy, Latin American-style socialism, or how about just American capitalism with some regulation thrown in?
Global capitalism will survive the current credit crisis; already, the government has rushed in to soothe the feverish markets. But in the long term, a system that depends on extracting every last cent from the poor cannot hope for a healthy prognosis. Who would have thought that foreclosures in Stockton and Cleveland would roil the markets of London and Shanghai? The poor have risen up and spoken; only it sounds less like a shout of protest than a low, strangled, cry of pain.
Barbara Ehrenreich, the author of Nickel and Dimed (Owl), is the winner of the 2004 Puffin/Nation Prize.
© 2007 HuffingtonPost.com, Inc.
Capitalism does not depend on extracting every last cent from the poor. Capitalism is not a zero sum game, it *creates* wealth. If the hundreds of thousands of rules on the books is not ‘regulation’, I’m not sure even Barbara knows just what the heck she is talking about.
If you don’t like capitalism, then don’t participate in it. Form your own peaceful collective, and trade amongst yourselves by actual choice. Heck, if it looks good, I’ll join in too.
Brilliant — this is one to be shared, even with my Republican family members who surprisingly liked (and understood) Ms. Ehrenreich’s book, NICKEL AND DIMED. Perhaps this article will open their eyes a bit more.
Thank you!
Well, maybe since the Walmarts of the world sent all the jobs overseas, these overseas workers will travel to the USA just to shop at Walmart with their 20 cents an hour wages…or maybe the rich will start buying 2 dollar tube socks in bulk to hide their money in…or maybe monkeys will start to fly out of my butt.
Take about a flawed business model
“I prefer my revolutions to be a little more pro-active” gee i am sorry that you are not happy with how things are getting done.
“The poor have risen up and spoken; only it sounds less like a shout of protest than a low, strangled, cry of pain.” and so…. as you look on……you are doing…. what??????
Capitalism is theft and it does more to create a consciousness of it’s alternative than all the leftist propaganda in history. Yes, it creates wealth — and poverty. One cannot exist without the other. Though it may survive another downturn it will result in the collapse of civilization if it isn’t replaced with a saner system that puts power, nature, and human intersts ahead of profits. That may seem “unrealistic” to most Americans spoon fed on the pablum of commercial consumerism, corporte propaganda and commodity fetishism but that alternative it is being built right now in Venezuela and elswhere.
A better world is possible but it ain’t for sale.
“But in the long term, a system that depends on extracting every last cent from the poor cannot hope for a healthy prognosis.” Excellent point.
A system that exports manufacturing jobs overseas, replaces them with lower income service jobs, does not provide affordable health care for its workers, lives on credit, is not thinking long term. Who and how will they buy the goods they sell and on which the profits are based? This works only for a while and seems the equivalent of burning the furniture to heat the house.
A system based on mutual trade and human ownership of ones’s self, mind, and labor is…theft? Wow, what else will we redefine?
Yesterday, Walmart tried to sell $2.6 billion in corporate bonds and could not. Not only are they seeing reduced sales, but the sub prime uncertainty has kept them from selling bonds to finance inventory. A double whammy from both sides, I would say.
Mtn goat,
I think the problem is that all the incremental wealth creation is retained at the top. None of it trickles down. Trickle down economics has been proven false by decades of empirical data, some 25 to 30 years worth.
Whatever you call our system, it certainly works great for those at the top. I’m not sure I would agree that the upper class lives in capitalism, since all the downside risk is socialized and passed onto the lower classes in the form of heavier taxation, and subsidies upward from the tax base.
The upper class enjoy the unbounded accumulation of the good times in capitalism, and all the social support infrastructure of Socialism when times are down — ensuring that they never have to endure the lean times.
I’m sorry, but I can’t let MtnGoat’s comment go by unchallenged. Let me ask you this, goat, where have you been for the last 7 years? Are you talking about all the regulations that the right has decided NOT to enforce, anymore? THOSE regulations?
Or are you talking about the unmatched tax breaks that business has gotten over the last 25 years? Or the bail outs that big business keeps getting at OUR expense? Like the one they just announced to keep the idiot mortgage lenders from losing their stupid butts?
You must work for the administration, they are the only people left in this country that actually think that what we are doing in sustainable. You actually like that outsourcing of jobs, don’t you? You lIKE the drop in wages when those outsourced jobs aren’t replaced with anything, don’tyou? You people would prefer that we all get screwed till the day we die, as long as it was by YOU people.
The ONLY way that capitalism doesn’t turn into fascism is with serious regulations being put in place, and ENFORCED. You can have all the regulations you want, but without enforcement, you get what we have now. A completely broken system that is headed for a serious fall. It has been unsustainable from the time Reagan proposed it and turned us down this path. I saw it coming then, and I’ve been waiting for the collapse ever since. It took a while, like things tend to do, but it’s coming. And then we will see just how you love this “captalistic” system of yours.
Capitalism is socialism for the rich.
The local flagship state university used to have a suite of small TV rooms each with a set tuned to one of the 5 available channels. Now instead it has some large TVs blaring MTV 24 hours a day in the main eating space of the commons. No one can turn them off or change channels. MTV pays to keep it on. In the other large cafe study space in the same student union, MSNBC blares on 4 large TVs while a radio station keeps up a concurrent barrage. These stations also pay the university to keep them on all the time. Pepsi Cola owns “pouring rights” a monopoly on the soft drink available to students here. Capitalism creates monetary wealth by subtracting from life. And I have given only the mildest of examples.
Marx was predicting that free trade, by destroying the standard of living, was sure to hasten the revolution a long long time ago. He mistakenly thought though that the West was a safety valve, despite the fact that very few people (relative to the whole) actually went West. The reality is that when things get really bad, any remotely organized application of Force will successfully stop a revolution. The Russian revolution (which occurred when horses were the main mode of transportation) only occurred thanks to mass chaos and the army starving. It won’t happen here. When the ruling elite accidentally kills off too many slaves, they ease up slightly. And that is all.
And with the increase in technology they really have far, far more slaves than they need. We should consider ourselves lucky that they’ve allowed so many of us to live, if not sufficient money to try to have children.
Ever notice you never hear Libertarians utter their old battle cry of “git big gubbermint off our backs” anymore? Well, look what happened, a libertarian fantasy turned into a nightmare due to deregulation. That there is some nasty blowback when the truth reveals itself that the capts of industry can’t be entrusted to behave in an ethical manner. It is as it has always been–human nature is not the model of Sainthood, but that is what the libertarian religion bases it’s free market ideology on. In truth it is naivete–either an inability or an unwillingness to see how it all falls apart despite the gospel of unrestrained free market utopia.
We actually don’t live under Capitalism. We taxpayers are peons in a system where the rich and powerful curry favor with the government and get their every heart’s desire by means of bribery (lobbying and campaign contributions).
Those of us who can’t afford to curry favor and make bribes are squeezed by the system, and the small businessman cannot compete with the giants–who import junk made by slaves in Communist countries.
That isn’t capitalism. It’s serfdom.
Vern,
I have a similar take on Libertarianism. The Libertarians argue that humans are fundamentally selfish and that is why socialism cannot work. Then they expect these same selfish individual humans to engage in fair play and to be honest in the market, doing what is necessary to preserve the integrity of the market. I always found this to be contradictory.
And it reminds me of a quote from George Bernard Shaw:
“Forgive him, for he believes the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature!”
Here’s something I’ve not seen discussed in the current economic meltdown: Okay, so the Fed can prop up the economy by loosening credit. But what about loans to the U.S. government? The nation itself is running on credit cards and if the world economy rocks, who will loan money at discount rates to prop up the U.S.?
As one of our generals mentioned to the press a year or so ago, “If we ever go to war with China, they can defund our military.”
And it isn’t like we’ve been winning a lot of friends lately, what with illegal invasions, torture and freelance assassinations, not to mention, tsk tsk, collateral damage.
Buddy can ya spare a billion?
Go Barbara!
Without regulation that is enforced, and meaningful worker representation, capitalism ALWAYS becomes fascism.
Do you remember the day when corporations, as part of their state charters, had to be good citizens? They had to PROVE that they were a positive force in the communities in which they SERVED. Well, globilization, the destruction of labor unions, and giving corporations “personhood” ended all that.
What we have in America today is fascism. Pure and simple. We are all slaves to the machine. And that’s just the way our “government” wants it.
It’s good to have MtnGoat posts here, to remind the readers of this excellent site just how far things have gone. Educated, rational folks tend to forget, or disbelive, the ignorance and sadism we’re up against.
Paul,
That’s what capitalism is, in practice. I’ve studied enough cultures & historical periods at this point to conclude that virtually all governments have been jural and coercive expressions of private interests. Strip away government and the modern pirates/warlords will continue to ply their trade anyway, with an institution or without one (e.g. Bush’s reliance on private mercenaries to fight a somewhat private war).
The best that we can hope for is a reshaping of government — to protect large numbers of people AGAINST exploitation from its most powerful (utilitarian sort of way), rather than facilitating/justifying it (the historical co-option).
Jaded Prole Amen !! Venezuela in cooperation with Cuba, Bolivia, Nicaragua and others to join soon show the way for a Better World which is Possible. Their production and distribution of wealth is based on cooperation and solidarity for the satisfaction of human needs as contrasted to the capitalist market where fierce competitiveness annihilates the smaller party
for the sake of profit maximization. Venezuela and the other countries are benefitting from each other’s strengths, whereas the capitalist transnational corporations exploit the weaknesses of the economically weaker countries.
These and a few other differences make the new wave of Latin America towards a better life very promising. Their humanistic model is called Alternativa Bolivariana para las Americas ( ALBA)which is the antithesis of the neoliberal model of capitalistic markets known as FTAA which is supported by the USA.
In all Latin American countries the people know ALBA. They talk about it and support ALBA’s beautiful methods of cooperation and solidarity. Here in the USA we know nothing
because the corporations and their mainstream media do not want us to know anything.
On the other hand, I live amongst the poor, and nearly everyone has cable and/or satellite hooked up to their big screen TV, they all have the latest and greatest in cell tech, and most drive autos way above anything affordable in their income level - in a bunch of cases, the monthly on the car is higher than the rent.
A little self-restraint and temptation resistance is in order.
Meanwhile, expecting a class of people living hand to mouth already to rise up and sacrifice what little they have for the cause is unrealistic. The revolution MUST begin and be led by what’s left of the middle class - they are the ones who need to start voting with their wallets. Exxon profits are up - how is that? Stop buying gas from them. Stop shopping at the Wal Marts, stop paying your taxes, and stop supporting enablers like FOX and their advertisers. Cancel your cable. Switch your voter registration to Independent.
And stop hoping the poor will rise up and save you - they won’t. But they will join you when you decide to fight.
MtnGoat: I think you should hoof your way back to that isolated cabin in the woods of some backwards-ass country town (sounds of Deliverance ringing in my ears) where you escaped from. People like you are the very reason this country is the world’s grossest polluter, leads the industrialized world in income disparity, ranks just above Slovakia in public health, and ranks equal with Iran in freedom of the press. You have been systematically - like all of us - propagandized by the corporate fascists who actually run this country from the day you were born. The difference between you and me, and perhaps many others here, is that I don’t give a shit about wealth! What I am concerned about is the health, education, lodging, and access to information - particularly on what the government is doing in my name - for EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN THIS COUNTRY, INCLUDING YOU!
Barbara ought to be worshiped, like a modern day goddess for the work she does in exposing the working poor in this country, and the slave laborers our biggest retail corporations utilized to feed our grotesque opulence.
In the now immortal words of ex-Intel CEO Andy Grove: “The goal of the new capitalism is to shoot the wounded.”
Wake up!
“I think the problem is that all the incremental wealth creation is retained at the top. None of it trickles down.”
I could not disagree more. Wealth is not only money, it is also goods and services. The rich are not simultaneously driving 90000 cars each and wearing 350,000 pairs of shoes, nor eating five zillion tons of chicken or wearing a million pairs of eyeglasses.
For every penny of money going to capital, a penny of goods is dispersed. Every single trader in a trade has innately agreed that what they are trading away is less valuable to them then what they are getting.
The idea that wealth is only represented by half of what takes place is provably wrong. If no one valued *as* wealth what they are getting when they trade away the only thing you recognize as wealth, THEY WOULD NOT DO SO. If that hunk of roast beef isn’t of value to you, why do you trade wealth for it?
Let’s check out today’s apologist for capitalism, Mr MtnGoat, who writes Capitalism does not depend on extracting every last cent from the poor. Capitalism is not a zero sum game, it *creates* wealth….A system based on mutual trade and human ownership of ones’s self, mind, and labor is…theft? Wow, what else will we redefine?…
First of all, ANY economic system that feeds & houses its people, from hunters & gatherers to the Romans to the USSR to the USA, “creates” wealth. There’s no need to give capitalism special credit by grandly proclaiming that it ” **creates** wealth,” as though some extraordinary magic were involved. The important questions are not just how much wealth the economic system produces overall, but also how it is shared, and at what cost to other societies, to the environment, & to relationships among people in the given society.
By those combined standards, capitalism is doing very poorly. It is destroying the planet, creating conditions for permanent war, & poisoning social relations. It distributes its generated wealth very inequitably. The ONLY measure by which capitalism is doing well is that it produces a lot of stuff. (Whether or not this stuff has real value is another question.)
It’s faulty thinking to imagine capitalism as simply being the relatively high living standards in the USA, Japan & Western Europe. Those living standards wouldn’t be so high, if OTHER societies in the less-developed world weren’t paying the price for it. The unfair trade relationships imposed by the “developed” (ie, better-armed & more ruthlessly acquisitive) world on the less-developed nations, ever since colonial days, allowed the wealthy nations to live well at the expense of the exploited. And inside each developed nation, of course, were always different levels of exploitation, all permitting the wealthier classes to live well off the backs of the less fortunate. From chattel slavery to wage slavery before the 1930’s (when unions were still illegal, & there were no child labor laws or employer safety regulations) to todays’ increasing social inequality, the wealthy have always made the laws in America. Except for the New Deal era & its immediate aftermath, laws have been made by the wealthy to benefit the wealthy.
To glorify capitalism as a system “based on mutual trade and human ownership of ones’s self, mind, and labor” is simply to regurgitate one’s capitalist indoctrination. You’re just babbling stuff here that echoes shallow con men like George W Bush or Ronald Reagan. Capitalism is based on no such thing. It’s just the law of the jungle, decreeing that the powerful can keep for themselves whatever they manage to get their paws on.
unbridled capitalism and unbridled socialism are both bad ideas, both lead to the oppression of the population. There must be some middle ground that would work.
CrCox, I think you should grow up and perhaps take a look at arguments you don’t agree with without the anti human goggles you have on. We’ve all been propogandized by all sides, and all that matters is our minds and our ability to compare arguments for consistency and actual logic, not the pretend kind.
I live in the same sea of ideas you do, as do we all… and if it’s all so complex…how is it *you* think you have it right? Is there something special about you?
I don’t give a crap about wealth either. That’s why I don’t argue to take it from people while telling them how bad they are for wanting to keep what I intend to take. I’m not rich, I have no intention of doing what it takes to become rich…but nor will I claim I am superior to those who are…just so I can justify taking what I claim is wrong to have, because I want it for my own purposes, like you do.
Why don’t you just cooperate openly with people who believe like you, organize non profit corporations and health care cooperatives with like minded people, and show us how your caring can really work…without the crutch of making other people do what you want?
To use a much overused analogy, perhaps we the people should utilize this rather unintentional revolution to make lemonade out of lemons, dig? I mean, let’s face it, the best thing that could happen for those of us who are in debt up to our eyeballs is for the stock market to fail and the banks fall right along with them. Look what happened following the Great Depression: the biggest publics works programs in the country started. Following that you had things like the California State University system develop, which was for a very long time the largest free higher education system in the world. California was churning out educated individuals by the thousands every year, building the strongest economy in the country.
Anyway, the larger point here is, until everything comes crashing down around our feet, we will have no chance at changing it as much as it needs to be changed. Case in point: I have a degree that I have put to good use, doing work that I think really matters, and at a company that treats me very well and even gives me health care. However, I am only paid in the low-30’s and I have well over $75,000 in college loan debt, as well as a car payment. For all intents and purposes, it actually makes more sense for me, financially, not to pay the college loans at all. You see, as long as I pay only the minimum payment, the principle stays the same, and I cannot afford to pay much more than that payment. I have done the math: even if I pay an extra $50 per month on my college loans, they will be paid off long after my death. My decision? Fuck the college loans. In my lifetime I will put into the economy at least $1 million more than someone who does not have a college degree. For that, they can take my loan and shove it. The education should have been a social investment.
I am only one of millions who live under the tyranny of the bottom line, because we have been frightened away from taking any real action. Perhaps Barbara is right, and the inherently inefficient methodology of the “free market” has begun to unravel this problem for us. We must learn to take advantage of that situation and wrest control of this country back from the greedy hands that hijacked it from us back in the Regan years.
Peace through revolution!
Brevity, shocking little vignette about the ‘local flagship state university’. You would do us a favour by naming the institution.
Unregulated capitalism is feudalism.
Peace to you and yours.
MtnGoat: Sorry brother, very weak argument. None of this has anything to do with seeing oneself as “superior.” That’s your terminology, not mine. In fact, I would argue the complete opposite: I see the good of society as superior to the good of powerful, landed, inherited minority. And save the bullshit argument that anyone can make it in America, or some crap like that. You know as well as the rest of us that it is an extreme minority that make it out of the depths of poverty into the gates of the wealthy, untaxed, unburdened elite.
Lastly, I do indeed cooperate with people who believe like me. As a matter of fact I am routinely chastised for it and called a “Commie”. Accurate as that might be. However, we are grossly outnumbered by those who have savored the individualist Kool-Aide. You are obviously full of punch drunk love yourself.
Really lastly this time: I agree with “bligh” in that “unbridled capitalism and unbridled socialism” are both bad ideas. The path lies with both forms, and I believe Communism is the somewhat unreachable state, and economic nirvana if you will. The Communisim that we have seen in the world, for the most part, was simply authoritarian dictatorship, taking on the name of socialism and communism, as though they are the very same thing.
“First of all, ANY economic system that feeds & houses its people, from hunters & gatherers to the Romans to the USSR to the USA, “creates” wealth.”
The USSR did not create wealth. It lacked the mechanism to actually create it instead of mining it from it’s people. Zero sum games such as socialism merely extract from citizens, and no amount of shuffling can fill in the gaps without predation. This is why the soviet union collapsed…it did not actually generate net surplus and given the costs it attempted to pay in the end years, the entire charade collapsed.
There is a vast difference between creating wealth (surplus wealth), and robbing peter to pay paul.
“There’s no need to give capitalism special credit by grandly proclaiming that it ” **creates** wealth,” as though some extraordinary magic were involved.”
The only ‘magic’ is the surplus creation of free trade.
“It is destroying the planet, creating conditions for permanent war, & poisoning social relations.”
Please. If anyone is ‘destroying the planet’, it is you and people like you who preach one thing and consume anyway. You and everyone else can at any time choose to reduce your standard of living and stop consuming. Since you claim so many of you support this, merely stopping what you are doing will have the impact of a massive reduction in consumption. Stop blaming other people for what your actions actually are.
Ditto for ‘permanent war’ and ‘poisoning social relations’. Your relations are only as ‘poisoned’ as you make them, and your attitude here towards disagreement is positively toxic. I’d never claim you should be forced to consume what you don’t want, work where you don’t wish to, pay for what you don’t like or want, or serve my ideals. Yet here you are taking the toxic attitude that we all need to be fixed to satisfy you. If there’s toxicity here, it’s from your intolerance of other ideas and other actions.
“It distributes its generated wealth very inequitably.”
Since when are people entitled to what they do not produce or own? You act as if there is some big pot of money sitting around that belongs to everyone, and it’s doled out unfairly.
“It’s faulty thinking to imagine capitalism as simply being the relatively high living standards in the USA, Japan & Western Europe. Those living standards wouldn’t be so high, if OTHER societies in the less-developed world weren’t paying the price for it.”
No, it’s faulty thinking to imagine trade is zero sum and that for some to be rich, others must be poor.
“The unfair trade relationships imposed by the “developed” (ie, better-armed & more ruthlessly acquisitive) world on the less-developed nations, ever since colonial days, allowed the wealthy nations to live well at the expense of the exploited.”
There is definitely truth to this, as unacceptable and unjust conditions were imposed by colonial actors. However, this is not what capitalism is, no more than Stalin’s actions represent socialism.
“Except for the New Deal era & its immediate aftermath, laws have been made by the wealthy to benefit the wealthy.”
Do you have any idea that only a couple of FDR’s programs actually survived judicial review, and that the ones which did survive STILL benefit the wealthy after being designed by the wealthy? Take a look at the payment share into SSec vs the benefits paid in terms of progressive taxation rates and you’ll find that once again, the wealthy are capped in payment while the poor contribute a much larger share, and it goes to non means tested individuals. Once again, a system designed by the wealthy for the wealthy. It appears to work otherwise, but when examined closely…is more of the same.
You seem to be operating under the mistaken idea that people in power will not do what benefits them for their own reasons. The only constant in human behavior is selfishness, and here you wish to add power to selfish people and then expect them to act differently than everyone else…which is drastically wrrong.
“To glorify capitalism as a system “based on mutual trade and human ownership of ones’s self, mind, and labor” is simply to regurgitate one’s capitalist indoctrination.”
No, it’s simply to reiterate it’s foundational principles instead of those babbled by those who hate it. I don’t go to the anti communist league to examine the basis for ideas lik are espounded here, I ask real socialists what their ideas are.
I’d think that if you are as smart as you obviously think you are, you’d examine the actual principles you claim to be judging, instead of taking talking points from groups who mistate these principles to begin with, then judge their own mistaken restatements, then pronounce their judgements valid.
Hard to say on Communism. Whatever it was historically clearly failed on the grand scale, whether it was Communism is another issue…
Capitalism has become the idiocy of arguing what’s good for one is good for all. And thus, to make it seem as if what is good for a few will be good for the many.
But it is insanely illogical to believe altruism and social benevolence results from achievement fostered by self-enrichment and aggrandizement. The same folks that promote that baloney are the same that say without the enticement and incentive of personal financial wealth little progress would be achieved.
But you can’t have it both ways, so which is it, are folks motivated for common good or for personal wealth?
Surely, if there were any real equity in the idea that the wealthy give back to society and help make the world a better place, then the world would be very different indeed. (Instead, we have individuals today making more money in a year than a billion, count ‘em, other people. Doesn’t that scream out to anyone??? That’s not free enterprise, that’s a great and grievous crime against all humanity.)
Still, capitalism does have its merits, and if the rewards of capitalism were truly cycled back then the whole can indeed be lifted. But when left unchecked capitalistic self-interest will absolutely become corrupt. I thought that was common sense, and as such, was the reason for government oversight, public regulation, ethical and legal accountability and social responsibility.
The problem isn’t with capitalism per se, the problem is that the fox (pun intended) is now guarding the hen house. The problem is that the poor and middle classes aren’t in control. The problem is that we have sold the public interest to private enterprise with little to no ROI for the public good. The problem is that we have been hoodwinked into yielding our power to power mongers.
The problem is “we the people” no longer own or run the farm – maybe we never did.
” However, I am only paid in the low-30’s and I have well over $75,000 in college loan debt, as well as a car payment. For all intents and purposes, it actually makes more sense for me, financially, not to pay the college loans at all. You see, as long as I pay only the minimum payment, the principle stays the same, and I cannot afford to pay much more than that payment. I have done the math: even if I pay an extra $50 per month on my college loans, they will be paid off long after my death. My decision? Fuck the college loans. ”
So you choose to go to college, you choose to educate yourself knowing the debt that would accrue, you chose your current job, and now you’ll leave it to everyone else getting loans to pay off your default…all the while blaming the aggregate outcome of all your choices on someone else. Everyone else will pay higher rates due to your INTENTIONAL decision to fail to pay off what you choose to accrue. Nice. Are those other people your tools to carry paying off your loans?
Look, the bottom line is there are those who believe in equality of condition and those who believe in what we have been led to believe is “equality of opportunity.” You know, a rising tide lifts all boats. Nobody ever asks what happens to the boats that are tied to the docks, dig?
With unregulated capitalism, there are only two paths:
1- At some point in a society’s history, the bulk of the population somehow manages to have a grand awakening in which every person is able to purchase, invest, and use according to his or her own personal ideological agenda, so that bad economics only happens to bad people. That’s the world that the MtnGoats think exists already.
2- The whole of society comes crashing down like a ton of brick because the a pyramid after all cannot stand on its head for very long. Eventually, the wind will blow.
I think communism could work for maybe 200 people on an island somewhere. For larger countries, it has seemed to have always devolved into a personality cult for the “great leader”,a small elite that has access to a life unavailable to the other 99%, and state oppression against anyone that won’t go along.
-Sounds like unbridled capitalism again.
You are quite right MtnGoat. I made the intentional decision to go to school and become educated instead of staying home and being continuously dumbed down or locked into a do-nothing job for the rest of my life. I loved going to college more than anything in the world, as a matter of fact. And I was willing to do whatever I had to go the best college I could. To be honest, if I had it to do all over again, I would not have attended the finest music conservatory in the world. You see, the problem is, I was a happy capitalist back then. I believed fully in my ability to pay off my loans someday, because after all, this is America! I can do whatever I set my mind to, right?
I did just that. I not only played music professionally for almost 16 years, but I even went back to college in my early 30’s for a second degree! That time I didn’t incure much debt though. I was smarter, more wise about how the world actually works. I learned that debt-free education is only for the elite.
“The poor have risen up and spoken…”
The poor people in America are among the richest people on the planet; but our economic system stinks though.
We have too much individualism and greed, political corruption, lack affordable and guaranteed education and health care for all…
“there should be a vision of what you intend to replace the bad old system with”
Sure, at the very least European-style social democracy for me, living in the Norway of America would be a much better decent place …a bit of socialism indeed
MtnGoat what are you smoking? I have a few other questions for you.
How do you know capitalism is not a “zero sum game?”
Exactly how is wealth created in capitalism?
I love the title on this one!
Unfortunately, I don’t think there has been, or ever will be socialism arising successfully and spontaneously from society’s poorest. If there were indeed a spontaneous socialist revolution by the most oppressed, it is only because of an historically tragic dearth of leadership. And it is doomed. Without disciplined leadership and a powerful program, naked capitalism will weedle its way back into the drivers seat, and happy friends next door be damned.
There is no reason to suffer through the mistakes of the past, though. There are many twists, turns and traps out there, and the leadership of a learned and disciplined party is needed to embody our best aspirations for freedom and knowledge about the past. Without such a party, bulding socialism will be Sisyphean, constantly finding us again in the rut of war and poverty.
Bligh: Bang on. My wife is from Hungary and we both are in agreement that life in Hungary under Communism was precisely what life is like under modern American capitalism, just minus the constant reminder everywhere you look that there are those who have obscene amounts of money. She is always saying that American culture just constantly rubs the wealth of the minority into your face, so that you are always reminded to buy, buy, buy. She has a great point there. In any case, as I mentioned before, I do not, nor do most Communists today, think that Communism is a system that can effectively be used in America, not until we have achieved Socialism first. Socialism, by its very nature (keeping in mind the much evolved literature about it we have today) does indeed utilize the market. The modern day Communist believes that Socialism is the middle step. I myself think the jury is still out on whether real Communism will ever be realized. But, in the meantime, I think it is a great goal to have. It’s like enlightenment. Most Buddhists feel that they will never reach enlightenment in this life, but that they will get there in another.
After all is said and done the Conservative philosophy boils down to intellectual arguments to justify greed and the accumulation of vast wealth.
Of course Capitalism creates wealth, lots of it. But it has always done a terrible job of distributing it.
And when things break down Capitalism goes out the door like right now when the Mortgage Lenders and Bankers are all yelling for the government to save their asses from their own stupidity. Or the giant corporations who claim “we’re too big to let fail” and ask for a handout, er..bailout.
We must not however, extend bailouts to the poor and those about to lose their homes. That would be SOCIALISM and that’s bad, bad, bad.
Capitalism is terrible enough, Mtn Goat, and it’s even worse when surrounded by hypocrisy. Conservatives like to talk about incentives. Well, seeing these bastards never suffer the consequences of their actions (like the dim bulb in White House) should be a tremendous dis-incentive for poor working stiffs to bust their asses for the system.
The difference between CEO pay and the pay of the average worker has been growing like crazy ever since the stupid Reagan administration. Even CEO’s who screw up their companies walk away with millions in Golden Parachutes.
What I’d like to see is Investment Bakers, Mortgage Lenders, Corporate CEO’s, Outsourcers, Hucksters and all the other financial Sharpies hanging around Home Depot looking for Day Labor jobs or selling bags of oranges by the Freeway on ramp. Let them sample that side of Capitalism!
Yours for the Revolution!
Widen the lens….Read Riane Eisler’s Real Wealth of Nations and Marjorie Kelly’s The Divine Right of Capital and you’ll see how we got into this mess….and how we can get out and end up with a saner world.
Right now, 20% of American’s own 91% of the wealth and 80% own just 9%. A system this imbalanced reflects a ‘dominator’ value that we’ve all become accustomed to and accept–but it isn’t one that can result in a high quality of life for all. Eventually a ‘king of the hill’ game has to collapse.
The rules of Capitalism are simple: Ultimately one guys owns it all. Don’t believe me? buy a monopoly game and teach yourself how to be a player. That’s why it matters not to the winners about the losers. As long as they are winning, life is good [loan me $300 so I can buy Board Walk, and I’ll give you free rent on Atlantic…]
My other point is a corollary to the Rules of Capitalism: These big players don’t care about a ‘healthy prognosis’ or a sustainable future. They will take theirs NOW! Thank You Very Much, Hold the fries and whine…
The corollary explains why regulations don’t work as planned.
I wonder if Rupert will be the Big Dog, of if some one from China will outsmart him?
Right on McDee!
On the issue of debt:
I am a professor in a small private college. The yearly tuition, including room and board, is at least 50,000/year, and is increased every year about 3% (public college tuitions are also rising). My students are, rightfully, obsessed with their accruing debt and their justified fear that they will not be able to find a job after graduation that will allow them to support themselves and pay off their loans. One of my students burst into tears in my office over this very issue. And, if often seems as if the kids from lower-income families are more serious about their studies because there is more at stake for them than for kids whose parents can afford the tuition.
The very notion of buying property and having a family is becoming a mere fantasy for most. Whatever political party you’re affiliated with, I think it should be a goal for this country for people to be able to get a college education, to buy property, to raise a family, without the shadow of massive debt hanging over them, preventing them from even dreaming about these most basic desires, desires my parents (married, had 3 kids, bought a house in NYC in the 1960s) did not have to question. I myself am lucky to have a full time job with benefits. Most of my colleagues can only find part-time jobs, forcing them to teach at multiple institutions (academia is going the way of journalism: no more good full-time jobs–the profession is being eroded from within).
Mountain Goat suggests that going to college is a “choice” and that you deserve the debt if you “choose” to go. Excuse me, but I find this statement appalling. It seems he/she has no problem with a nation populated by uneducated people. But then again, perhaps she/he is coming from this group. I thought education was one of the core shared values in this country, at least in principle.
I see the king of the Swiftboaters - MTNGOAT - is bleating in the wilderness again.
Just another lickspittle in service of greed.
I truly believe in free enterprise. The basic problem is that free enterprise without any type of a cap….say a few million bucks…leads to an acceleration of avarice, and ultimately the purchase of huge blocks of land (try COUNTRIES, for example…) Four letter words matter no longer, in the light of the the big five-letter one: G-R-E-E-D!!!!
the problem is that Capitalism is not really what we have in America, if by Capitalism you mean a free market of rational actors all seeking to maximize their own wealth through the buying and selling of goods and services…America is an International Banking System wherein the Banks create money through debt…no debt, no money…this is WHY they gave out the subprime loans…it was to stave off the recession of 2001…now the chickens are coming home to roost…all it will take is a single tremor to send everyone into bankruptcy or clawing their bank door to get their money…one problem, the banks dont HAVE any money…all they have is debt…welcome to the other side of the looking glass…
YES, this is capitalism at its best.
Those who still believe that the US system is a failed capitalism and that there is another “pure & clean capitalism are just drinking the koolaid. Go ahead and knock yourself out.
For those who are more serious and inquisitive thiknkers, I would like to recomend a book.
“Kicking Away the Ladder: Development Strategy in Historical Perspective” by Ha-Joon Chang.
It has very good analyses on the international economics, politics, free trade, and capitalism.
( this does not mean that I completely agree with the conclusion of the author)
Pleasethink: Thank you very much for you insight. That is what needed to be said, especially regarding the poor having more at stake in their education. I grew up in a small town of no more than 500 people, went to a small unknown high school, etc. The only thing that kept me going was music and the knowledge that those many thousands of hours of hard practice would pay off in the form of allowing me the opportunity to go to college. People who argue that education is merely a “choice” are the very same people who are content with equating every single thing on this planet to its monetary value. Some things just should not be on the market.
Question for MtnGoat: what IS this “wealth” that is being “created”? Can you touch it, build with it, live in it, or eat it? What color is it? How big is it? Where does it grow? What does it look like?
The so-called “creation” of “wealth” is primarily a figment of the 20th-century capitalist’s imagination. It exists only on paper, or electronically, and doesn’t represent anything tangible. Unfortunately, this so-called “wealth” has a startling tendency to disappear just when you least expect. Especially when the “wealth” has been “created” by offering credit to people who don’t actually have any money. In that case, the “wealth” consists of contractual promises to pay back money at some future date (usually at an exorbitant rate of interest); it doesn’t even consist of real money.
MtnGoat, you might want to Google the date October 29, 1929 to see what is likely to happen when an economy becomes too dependent on these kinds of speculative “wealth.” Or, just wait patiently for another few months or years, because between the bursting of the housing bubble, record levels of consumer debt, the trade deficit, and our debts to China, 10/29/29, or something like it (probably worse) is coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
B.S. MtnGoat if that were true workers wage would rise at the same rate of production they aren’t rather the corporations are using subhuman living standards in third world to lower everyones wages to the lowest common denominator. Meanwhile in the last 30 years CEOs compensation has risen from around 36 times an average workers wage to over 500 times an average workers wage. The answer restore the unions and more cooperative IMO.
American capitalism socializes the costs and risks, and privatizes the profits. Without corporate socialism, capitalism would have died a long time ago. The elite knows it. The people are just beginning to figure this out. Let’s give socialism for the people a chance, and let capitalism die its natural death. Venezuela takes the lead.
Any economic system based on the consumption of non-renewable resources and with a philosophy of “more today than yesterday, more tomorrow than today” is doomed to collapse. Like it or not, it is a house of cards. I’m hope I will be safely dead when it all comes down around our ears but I lament that my progeny will suffer such a fate.
ORANGE you ready for IMPEACHMENT and Bush wars’ end, indeed?! AND DON’T FORGET. Cut the BushCollusive spying/lying booby Bell communications companies off at the bills with disposable cell phones, as well!
Mtn Goat,
The Soviet version of Communism was indeed flawed, saddled with bureaucratic corruption.
But to say that it generated no wealth is utter nonsense. Russia entered Communism as a third world backwater — laughingstock of “Europe.” It exited at the tail end as a superpower. In WWI, Russia had no weapons. By the end of the Cold War, the Pentagon was pleading with the public to consider the many areas where the Soviet Union was technologocally superior.
Stalin was a monster, but on economic terms he was a godsend. The industrialization of Russia under Communism is one of the greatest triumphs of the 20th century.
So, we need to keep things in perspective a bit here.
Also, have not seen you refute the notion that the upper class is enjoying a version of Socialism here in America, where all the risks and burdens of investments are offloaded to the lower classes.
Certainly, that’s not a very Capitalistic way. The power of the market is supposed to weed the non-performers out of the market. Instead, we have a situation where a classic value-destroying, non-performing, leech off the system is in the White House.
Bush 43 is a radical refutation of the argument that we have a capitalistic meritocracy at home — where the market separates the wheat from the chaff.
having a good day goat? stop spending you capitalist gains on wacky weed and pay the student loans that were obviously well borrowed. that green color is so much more vibrant now…hee hee, haa haa
Mtngoat, your turn is coming. You, too, will be devoured by the rapacious tapeworm of greed. They don’t leave anything behind. Greed devours and unbounded capitalism is pure greed. Then you’ll wonder what happened.
Listen now, to the people who are trying to reach you. It’s your last, best hope.
To borrow a phrase from Winston Churchill, Capitalism is the worst kind of economy except for all the others.
There is no guarantee that Capitalism will be fair or balanced. In fact, “Capitalism” is not a single, well-defined concept. Capitalist economies in the west have changed enormously over time. The 19th and early 20th century western economies were much more unfair and unbalanced than they are today, with horrible conditions for workers and zero concern for environmental destruction. My suggestion for reading is “The Jungle” by Upton Sinclair.
Worker conditions were vastly improved by the advent and growth of labor unions, and environmental regulation grew and have done a lot of good, especially over the last few decades.
And what about the Soviet Union? It was incredibly corrupt for a number of different reasons. Soviet countries were far bigger polluters than corresponding western countries. And there was no recourse, because the government truly controlled commerce and politics. Germany has been able to meet its Kyoto goals of reducing CO2 output by simply cleaning up former East Germany.
Now, unfortunately, we the voters of the United States put Bush and his corrupt, exploitive gang in power. So the first thing to do is to roll up our sleeves and throw them out election by election, so we can get people in the government who do care about a reasonably fair deal for all.
The wealth socialism develops is publicly owned rather than privately hoarded. The vultures of “privatization” have been feeding off of the wealth developed even within the flawed socialism of the Eastern Bloc
I think it needs to be said that one can still rise in US society if one is unburdened by principles or concerns for one’s fellow human beings. The whole problem with the current US system is that it rewards the unprincipled and greedy and punishes those who would sacrifice for the common good. It is completely unsustainable over the long term (and has only made it this far through ruthless and parasitic behavior) as it weeds out the good, both in terms of genes and behaviors.
It seems , my opinion and not worth much, that most people seem to think that a decline in Wal-Mart from multi billions a quarter to just a few billions a quarter will make them change their ways, and that a rich man cannot fire a landscaper or nanny and not get one just as good if not better to replace them for the same low wage and abuse he tended last employees.
There is not nor has there ever been a national consensus among the laboring class to join together and demand equal pay for equal work and a fair share of profits while doing so.
Don’t give me this American claptrap of how we organized unions which is just as much propaganda as Iraq having WMD’s when research of reality is done.
As a case in point during our own industrial revolution, 1840’s up until 1941 there were as many years that saw an exodus of foreign workers greater than an influx of such as was the opposite.
What the so called progressives and socialist have done in US is lead us into a form of National Socialism whereby every industry and the social order to support those industrial means and the managing of such has state ramifications.
Why was OSHA instituted?
NHO it was not primarily a a matter of safety but of cost to the employers from the multitudinous amounts of both damage suits and rewards from jury’s to those damage who brought suits.
Let the state pay for injuries out of a minuscule amount from companies the rest paid from tax funds raised from the employees and all citizens even though not part of any industry.
It is human nature that most socialist leave out of equation and humans are killers of their own species worse by far than any animal ever, god made.
The only way to have a socialist, true socialist economic system is to have an altruistic form of government, means all altruistic psyches of admins,, and that cannot ever be done.
the family unit in the past came as close to altruistic means but even that up to this day is hardly universal, in fact today quite the opposite as we see more and more dysfunctional families.
As always the socialist opportunist when trouble hits come out trying to raise funds for their causes and get fresh blood to be spilt for their misplaced energies and so to today we see them leading us to a Utopian National Socialist society.
they are just the enablers of the so called capitalist, the us does not have a one sided capitalist society but by vast majority we do have one that is abused most by a Corporate driven political partnership.
One thing the New World Order will do is institute their from of Socialism and in the majority the whole of earths populace will struggle for the gains of the few, just have a better means of doing so than in the past, socialist, communist or capitalist philosophies.
The classic definition of capitalism is private means of production. This also implies private allocation of profits and the free market people will tell you the price is either at or converging to the equilibrium price. Nice theory, now for the actual reality. When you have no alternative but to work for the man and pay the prices that they demand, you are stuck.
I have long believed that capitalism can work if capital is available for new business creation. Most small businesses start as a second mortgage on someones home and enough of a credit line to go broke.
If we want to see true prosperity, we will make capital available for new business creation. You will have more jobs than people and maybe then that guest worker program will come in handy.
If you people want to break out from the present barbaric capitalist machine, just dump the two-headed republicratic monster and unite with all progressive, oppresed and marginalized social forces and learn from Venezuela, Bolivia, etc.
And be practical. Hit the streets in September in Washington and demand, first things first, end of the war and impeachment. If the Congress won’t do those things, then we must do them. The time for business as usual is over.
american capitalism is a euphemism for public risk with private profit. it’s also socialism for the rich.
all those money-lenders and speculators make “wealth” by putting people into debt.
then they run to their buddies in government when their schemes collapse and demand forgiveness from their obligations.
McDee writes - After all is said and done the Conservative philosophy boils down to intellectual arguments to justify greed and the accumulation of vast wealth. Of course Capitalism creates wealth, lots of it. But it has always done a terrible job of distributing it.
Well, Capitalism does not really distribute the wealth it creates - as it creates individual wealth - which of course was its initial draw to the masses back in old Europe 500 years ago when it began to replace feudalism. Read “Global Rift” by L. S. Stavrianous. This guy does a bang up job detailing the creation of the 3rd world via the use of capitalism. You see the individuals using capitalism to create their wealth are also responsible for its distribution or not. We are all about individual rights in AMerica unti someone else has more than me!! Then I want the state to step in and implement some kind of give me something for nothing program for the feel gooders and whiners.
I have to say while everyone here is bashing Mtngoat everywhere he turns he does offer some intelligent debate on subjects. I feel like I’m talking to fundamentalist Christians about Jesus’ message when I read the so called “liberal” rants on these pages. So much for high minded liberals!!
The reality is this folks -
Conservative simply means having the desire or belief of keeping the status quo - or keeping things as they are.
Liberal simply means being open to new ideas. These are definitions NOT in Wikepedia but in Websters dictionary. Most Americans, regardless of politics or education levels would do well to read one, especially those of you who keep letters AFTER your name!!
Having said that - this is a liberal idea - as it is new - a flat tax rate for everyone. Yet only a small group of Republicans (the Party leaders will never let this happen) are pushing this idea.
this is a conservative idea - abortion rights for women. Here Democrats (again ony some) are trying to keep these rights for women. It is portrayed erroneously as liberal in the media and by BOTH party leadership camps.
Capitalism is only as bad as the people who are operating in it. I have this same conversation with my liberal friends all the time. They say the “corporations” are too blame for all this mess!! Like we can suit up and ride out into the wilderness and slay a few fire breathing corporations and be done with it all. What a crock!!
People make up corporations and make the decisions for corporate action that affect you and me. See, Americans would rather live in fear of losing something they never had - freedom or employment or fill in the blank - than stand up to people when they see wrongdoing going. As soon as you choose to live in fear of something or someone - you choose to become a slave to that fear. Sure CEO salaries have gone up over 500% vs. the avg wage earners measly 10% increase over the same time period. You want to blame corporations or capitalism? Fine. Once you have killed off that gameplan - the same weak minded people who want to use any means to justify their own ends will once again try their shenanigans on their unsuspecting neighbors.Because after all we have killed capitialism right? The evil Empire has fallen!!
People need to become aware of the fear they live in and then begin to remove that first. Then you can worry about how to make the changes you want to see in the world. There is a guy in SC doing just that now. He is converting cars to electric out of his garage. Git ‘er dunn!! If you want saomeone to lay out a career path for you for this lifetime try moving to China, Korea, France, Germany or some other socialist coutnry where they tax you death and monitor you with cameras already. I would suggest that more changes would be happening in this country if more people actually got out of the house and stopped whining online and focused their energies on making those changes rather than bitching and whining about how bad things are getting.
Putting my money where my mouth is;
I’ve already lost one of my previous jobs and my wife’s job at the same company because I dared to tell the company CEO that we as the management of the company should be taking pay cuts before getting such a large bonus. We had been given the largest bonus in our history that quarter while we lost $900,000 and laid off 400 people. Imagine what would have happened if others stood with me and made the same stand? Several had promised to back me up of course prior to the meeting - but I already knew they would fly the coup when it came down to crunch time. I do not hold it against them either - they were choosing to live in fear - fine. Just don’t cry about how things are when no one has the moral fortitude to stand up and say what is wrong when they see it. Oh and btw - the CEO was so courageous it took him another 3 years to get around to laying off my wife and I the same day. I had another job in 2 weeks at a much better company but lost about $20k in salary. My wife decided to stay home rather than go back for more abuse whcih added another $40k to our slary loss. Now we live on $52k a year and are buying a second property. All becasue I refuse to play the games as defined by others. Americans need to wake up toi the idea that you can create the changes you want to see in this world - if you take action rather than whining about things as they are.
Russia under Stalin, or after for that matter, was no more communist(socialist) than the USA today, or ever for that matter, is Capitalist. Neither of these two systems have ever been implemented anywhere, so how well they work is a matter of conjecture only. We all fall into a word trap when when we allow our discussions to revolve around these inaccurate terms which represent nonexistent systems. This traps into arguing over the semantics, conveniently divides us, and prevents us from finding common ground from which to devise a better way.
The all socio-political and economic systems are human constructs. The concept of “wealth” is likewise a human construct. The problem is that traditionally in “civilized” cultures, the constructs by which we live as social creatures is allowed to be defined by the few, primarily for their own benefit.
What we need is a new global economy based on the highest social, ecological, and entrepreneurial values.
Millions starve to death while the rich nations decide the rules for the rest of the world. This can and must end through a more equitable re-distribution of resources.
“The new creed of the superpowers has become ‘the economy,’ which is the soul of commercialization. Commercialization is more destructive than any nuclear bomb. The quality of commercialization is greed, which means making money while others starve.”
- Maitreya, the World Teacher (www.Share-International.org)
It is becoming more and more obvious that with the sea changes taking place on the global level, we are getting another chance to make an advance towards our common dreams.
In the last century, we lost the propaganda war to those who scream “freedom to choose, free market, free whatever”.
Let’s not fall in to the Armageddon theory.
Let’s not blow it this time.
The origianl definition of capitalism by our founders and one they most strongly tried to deny all three branches of government from insitituting:the usage of the Public Treasury by a man or group of men for their own needs above the needs of the nation as a whole.
That raiding of public treasury was not just done by corproate, politcal or citizenry but a co-operative effort led by all three each vying for their individual needs without regard to countrys needs.
Now that the treasury those democracy advocates kept raiding without thinking of future cost is empty are finding out that while they were crying ror more and more the ones who were smiling and profiting the most were the ones who damn well new that someday they would have the debtors right where they wanted them and today they do; Right by the Short Hairs, and all you can do is whine and cry in pain.
That being said, here is another economic construct. All the “wealth” that is available to be “created” comes from one of two sources. It is either part of the commonwealth, those things that are here and available regardless of human intervention. The oil under the ground, the ground itself, the radio spectrum, air, water, etc. Or it is the result of human effort, the internal combustion engine, oil drilling and refinement technology, radio’s T.V.’s, a house, roads, etc.
Allowing individuals, or groups of individuals organized into corporations, to “own” any part of the commonwealth is contrary to the common good. Taxing individuals and companies for that which is uniquely theirs, their labor, creativity, sound management techniques etc. is contrary to the best interests of the individual, and thereby the common good.
See the work of Henry George this uy had some good ideas applicable to our problems today.
http://www.henrygeorge.org/
“american capitalism is a euphemism for public risk with private profit. it’s also socialism for the rich.”
So get rid of govt subsidy…and rights taking govt control. If your problem is that it is euphemism for public risk with private control…stop involving the public in the private risk and then claiming what you demanded is what you oppose. Fix the system, remove the public risk..and you have private risk private profit.
Yes, capitalism creates wealth. But unspiritualized, rapacious capitalists invariably attempt to entrench themselves behind financial, political, and ecclesiastical power in order to better (that is, more ruthlessly, effectively, and systematically) exploit, oppress, and enslave those who, because of their idealism, are not disposed to resort to force for self-protection of the furtherance of their laudable life projects.
A word to the wise, MtnGoat: The spiritually blind animal man typically mistakes meekness for weakness and views it as an opportunity to attack or, at the least, to take unfair advantage. Idealism is wearing thin among the exploited classes these days.
That said, there are a number of good reasons to be compassionate even, or especially, toward your enemy. Among them: 1) Your enemy may never see a world other than this one. 2) You may never see a world other than this one if you let your enemy strip you of your compassion. 3) By being respectful and humble toward your enemy, you may convert him into the helpful friend who will one day save your bony ass when you stumble into a pit or are set upon by thugs and left for dead.
Can you accurately describe the way the universe works in three words? How about, “Like a family.” Does that work for you? Do you work for it? It works for me. I offer it to you.
Mtngoat wrote “Unacceptable and unjust conditions were imposed by colonial actors. However, this is not what capitalism is, no more than Stalin’s actions represent socialism.”
But it is what IS; whatever name you wish to call it. Let’s deal with what IS, not some Ayn Rand fairytale, comforting as it may be to some.
“When you have no alternative but to work for the man and pay the prices that they demand, you are stuck.”
What I am struck by here is..what kind of ‘alternative’ do you expect? There is no perfect world. You will always be working for someone else if you are not working for yourself.
“The man” can be your dole officer, your boss at public works, or your boss in private industry…and you will always be doing what they want for their reasons not what you want for yours. Unless you create resources sufficient to support yourself, someone else will be providing your resources for you, making *you* ‘the man’…and where do you wind up then, you wind up being the person someone else is carrying..and they justifiably resent you for it.
It seems to me the idea that you can be free of responsibility for making your own balancing acts as best you can is the idea you are alluding to, and I can’t honestly say I can see how this can possibly work.
Even in the welfare state nations of Euroville, people *still* complain about working for ‘the man’ wether it’s the state or industry.
“But it is what IS; whatever name you wish to call it. Let’s deal with what IS, not some Ayn Rand fairytale, comforting as it may be to some.”
Odd, you’re not dealing with ‘what is’ when you want to pursue some fairy tale more to your liking. I am struck by the idea that what you want to change in following what does not yet exist is somehow beyond reproach even though it is in the future and doesn’t exist, but that another model or basis you don’t like is attacked…..on the same basis that already applies to your ideas.
Like it or not, we all defend and argue for systems that will never have any perfect expression, but this does not invalidate the use of the ideas leading to them as ways of moving forwards.
“How do you know capitalism is not a “zero sum game?””
Simple. In the trade both sides freely decide for themselves using their own wants and values that what they receive is worth more than what they trade away.
In doing so, the sum of what both sides perceive as value is greater than what either one brought, after all both parties innately agreed the very same goods had different worth to each party, and in each case it was greater than what they traded.
When both parties decide they are each increasing in value simultaneously, you have increased the total value. Note that this only works when both sides make the determination on their own. This is why open trade is not zero sum.
When you force peter to buy from paul because zoe said so under threat, either or both can be losing by their own valuation..and you get zero sum at best or negative sum at worst.
All because judgement of actual value is only possible in the perception of each individual’s unique desires and values. This is why increases in value/wealth in a trade rest entirely on each actor being free to value the goods being traded. Eliminate that one crucial element, and the equation changes entirely.
“Exactly how is wealth created in capitalism?”
See the above. Only by viewing each person as having the right to their own minds, values, labor, and property can the conditions for increasing value simultaneously via trade be achieved.
moneylender August 22, 2007
Look chaps, you all a bloody selfish arse holes.You are not alone in this planet, you live in a interdependent world, part of the great human family. The powers that be are able to dived and rule you internally and externally, while they laugh all the way to the bank. Take non violent action against banks. Money is created out of NOTHING by private banks. thus able to maintain this evil unfettered and uncontrolled mmarket which is unfree, unfair and unjust.You all are enslaved from cradle to the grave. Ask you self a stupid question, why is the need for interest?
Mount a non violent action for the money to be created by the Government, then it’s interest free and put to productive purposes in the real economy. Your infrastuctures are crumbling, do them up this provide empolyment.. Money to day is speculated in the virtual economy for the benefit of the few.
You American seems happy to be enslaved
“Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal — that there is no human relation between master and slave.”: Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy - (1828-1910) Russian writer
The problem with Capitalism is that it permits private ownership of things rightly belonging to the commonwealth, such as land. Land was not created by human effort so private ownership, the ability fo r private parties to trade it is fundamentally flawed. If we are looking to buy a home we find out that houses in certain school districts are worth more; houses near Interstate highways are worth more; houses with a view of the ocean are worth more.
But is the house really worth more? Are the boards and mortar, nails and shingles worth more because they’re near the ocean? That question isn’t hard to answer: when we check building-supply prices, we find them to be just about the same in each location. What accounts for the difference in price? It would have to be the land under the house, would it not?
Fantastic article, proving that AmeriKKKa’s unregulated captilism doesn’t work….
Viva la European economy!!!!!
Caring and sharing
opposed to
me me me me me me me me me me me I voted for the Republicans….
“Yes, capitalism creates wealth. But unspiritualized, rapacious capitalists invariably attempt to entrench themselves behind financial, political, and ecclesiastical power in order to better (that is, more ruthlessly, effectively, and systematically) exploit, oppress, and enslave those who, because of their idealism, are not disposed to resort to force for self-protection of the furtherance of their laudable life projects.”
I don’t call them capitalists, I call them criminals. I refuse to defend the use of govt power, religious power, or any other form of right violating threat in order to coerce individual actions. IF you are looking for a defense of these methods, you have come to the wrong capitalist.
“A word to the wise, MtnGoat: The spiritually blind animal man typically mistakes meekness for weakness and views it as an opportunity to attack or, at the least, to take unfair advantage. Idealism is wearing thin among the exploited classes these days.”
Then they have one more problem added to all their others. People are creatures of the mind, and we all base our actions on ideas. Arguing that people are tiring of using ideas as a basis for action, is a sure sign they are abdicating responsibility for the only thing that has made human life possible..the use of mind to examine and use ideas correctly as a basis for action.
You may as well argue people are tiring of using their brains, and if you agree with people doing so, then nothing but disaster will follow. Even refusing to be idealistic, is an ideology. There is no escaping ideas and their impetus, even if you attempt to evade responsibility for it.
“That said, there are a number of good reasons to be compassionate even, or especially, toward your enemy. Among them: 1) Your enemy may never see a world other than this one. 2) You may never see a world other than this one if you let your enemy strip you of your compassion. 3) By being respectful and humble toward your enemy, you may convert him into the helpful friend who will one day save your bony ass when you stumble into a pit or are set upon by thugs and left for dead.”
Who is arguing for not being compassionate? Not I. I merely argue against selfishly using threats as a measure of compassion. It’s not ‘compassionate’ to disrespect other people’s rights to their own values, ideas, and actions, no matter how sure you are your ideas are so very important.
I’m one of the few voices here for a truly open hand cooperation, every one else acts as if they are…then wants to use govt backed threat to get their ideas enacted. I do not back the use of threat to impose any particular action on other people…but most here, do.
If you want to organize a co-op for trade on your principles for any who want to participate, i’ll defend that against all comers. I’ll even join in if it looks good.
But what we see here is much support for denying that same right to other people for other systems of trade. We see arguments that they should be forced on pain of harm or jail to do things the way some posters want. That’s not ‘cooperation’ or respect, that’s tyranny.
“Can you accurately describe the way the universe works in three words? How about, “Like a family.” Does that work for you? Do you work for it? It works for me. I offer it to you.”
Of course it works. I view all as my family. I would not support someone cheating my brother, nor would I support one brother and two sisters to threaten another sister into trading the way the first three want. That’s family…open and consensual and rejecting the use of threats.
“The problem with Capitalism is that it permits private ownership of things rightly belonging to the commonwealth, such as land. Land was not created by human effort so private ownership, the ability fo r private parties to trade it is fundamentally flawed.”
Who said something had to be created by human hands in order to be owned? Where is this basis written on an atom or derived without inconsistency from logic?
Carrots were not created by human hands but if I use my irreplaceable time to plant them, weed them, water them, and harvest them, they are still products of my mind and effort, and if you take them without my consent you are still taking the products of what cannot be replaced, my time and effort.
“But is the house really worth more? Are the boards and mortar, nails and shingles worth more because they’re near the ocean?”
That’s up to you and each person deciding that question. If you don’t want it more, then no. If you do, then yes. This is the function of allowing each person’s values to decide what is worth more…to them.
“Mount a non violent action for the money to be created by the Government, then it’s interest free and put to productive purposes in the real economy.”
Money cannot be created by govt, it must be created by the recognition of value by those who will trade in it. This is proven by the fact that numerous attempts to build fiat currency with no actual value vetted by those who use it always fall flat, resulting in black market trading in everything from currencies that do hold perceived value to barter.
I am glad to see however that in spite of our disagreement on this you do mention non violent support, that is at least one key for a situation where pressure is applied in a way that respects each persons rights.
Dave Rabbitt is living in a fantasy world. Europeans are as much a part of the global economic problem as Americans. Europeans are, after all, the scourge of the world, European expansionis spawned the current global disaster. Europeans have not moral high ground on which to stand, just look at what they have wrought!
“But to say that it generated no wealth is utter nonsense. Russia entered Communism as a third world backwater — laughingstock of “Europe.” It exited at the tail end as a superpower.”
Of course it did..and it literally consumed people as fuel. It directly and intentionally killed tens of millions of people as State policy, it fed off a system of internal colonialism by transferring resources from wholly owned and rightless vassal states.
It did all this while achieving one and one only form of ’superpower’ status, military might, at the zero sum expense of all other economic development, and only because it was supported by capitalism running underneath the entire system as the black market which actually supplied most of what few goods people could get. For gods sakes there were black markets in burned out light bulbs which people would use to swap in for working ones at work, in order to get good ones they couldn’t get in the stores.
Meanwhile, the US and western economies generated enough wealth to match the USSR’s military might AND created consumer economies to power advances in living standards beyond the wildest dreams of the USSR’s unfortunates. The difference is not only obvious, it is stunning.
Sorry I didn’t jump in sooner. (Hey MtnTroll, still making trouble?)
Free markets are _always_ regulated by negotiation. If all of consumers united under a democratic framework, and all labor united under a democratic framework, then we could negotiate with most companies our ethical guidelines as democratically agreed upon… even in the worst of libertarian nightmares.
If we choose this route, rather than the gubbermint, we choose the non-violent path of enforcing our measures with cooperation and non-cooperation, rather than choosing the path of enforcement by gun. (or gun proxy: badge)
As for the dollar, it needs to go, and the way to make it go is to smash it in the marketplace with one competing currency.
What “local economy” enthusiasts fail to grasp is that everything is vulnerable to shorting, and the smaller a currency base is, the more vulnerable it is to shorting. You do not even need to have a supply of the targeted currency! You can create future guarantees of the targeted currency and use those to drive down demand. In a shorting war, the only defense is financial resources: a currency is defended by buying it up or buying up its future guarantees.
In the end, the player with the most financial resources wins the battle.
There is a vulnerability in their strategy: cooperation. Where capitalism has grown out of competition, socialist ideals have grown out of cooperation. And we are more willing to cooperate with each other than they are. By uniting together, we have the ability to smash all wealth-based currencies and replace them with labor-based currencies, printed and democratically managed by labor united worldwide! But first we must regain our collective voice, and speak loudly in the markets that exist now, and prove that socialism will beat capitalism in the free market because we do cooperate. And we must take back the name of socialism from the purveyors of violence and show that it does not require violence with the example of using cooperation and non-cooperation only.
Unity, self-determination, collective work and responsibility, cooperative economics, purpose, creativity and faith!
“Any economic system based on the consumption of non-renewable resources”
They ALL are. Oil is non renewable. Steel. Copper. Silicon. Manganese. Aluminum. There is hardly a product or a way to produce and transport it that does not rely on resources that are non renewable.
I am against Capitalism and so-called free trade. For one it creates a have/have not society. There is no if and or two-ways about this. Capitalism in a given nation inevitably creates a have/have not society. Period! If Capitalism is regulated (i.e. income caps on individuals, outlaw privatization), Capitalism MAY work. However, unbridled Capitalism is dangerous and benefits a select few people. There is also a tendency in a Capitalist nation to judge individuals based on how much money they have - meaning, the more financially wealthy an individual is, the more respect and admiration the individual receives in the society. Someone once said that the love of money is the root of all evil.
It becomes old when Americans claim that Socialism is bad Economics. Perhaps it is - for millionaires! Obviously most people are not millionaires. Far from it. Socialism is simply more humane than Capitalism. Ok? Maybe that is why so many Americans finds Socialism theories unsound, let alone know anything about them, other than it is merciful and fair to the majority of citizens. Wait a second mercy, sharing the GDP, and egalitarian Economics are vices in the USA. Obviously, the only people who claim that Socialism is so bad are financially wealthy people. When was the last time a Socialist was President of the USA?
I am sure many pro-Capitalists may find the following statement uncomfortable:
No creo en negocios gratis, sino negocios justo. - Hugo Chavez
MtnGoat is either beyond fianancially secure and/or a CEO. It’s best to ignore him.
Well MtnGoat old boy you are defending a fantasy. Your ideal of the perfection of capitalism is non-existent. It is not in place in the USA and never has been, neither has it been implemented anywhere. Todays carrots and many other vegetables are the result of centuries upon centuries of human cultivation and manipulation, but the land upon which you garden, the rain, sunshine and air are part of the commonwealth.
I do not wish to take your carrots, I simply wish you to pay back society for the ability to utilize the commonwealth to grow carrots for profit.
I’ve been working on a song that speaks to the subject. Don’t mind the darkened out words this with a downbeat is. If you want to use it please feel free to contact me through my e-mail address.
Globalize ©
By Robert R.Goldsborough III
Structural adjustment policies
Privatization, privatization! The corporate world -/ - They like privatization
Corporatize, globalize We become desensitized.
Polarize, victimize! We’re all disenfranchised /
Compromise, anesthetize! We find ourselves minimized, mesmerized.
Dehumanize, Demoralize - / - The human race is brutalized /
Privatization, privatization! The corporate world - / -They like privatization
Reducing corporate taxes / Slashing funds for public needs.
Sell them off to global corporations - -
Poverty prevails. Privatize our jails
They jeopardize our lives, Maximize their greed. -
They Prey on human frailties, Prey on human needs.
Privatization, privatization! The corporate world - / - They like privatization
Oh no no no no no! They pick apart our world. Our national parks,
Public forests, No stone is left unturned. - /
They privatize our armies, leave their trash behind.
Globalize war They terrorize us all. - /-
Transnational corporations how Racing round the world for contracts - -
Commodify the water make us pay for rain
Oh no no, no no no no no! let’s create a better place,
Diversify, humanize!, Its time for us to improvise.
Recognize, Organize! Let’s get wise and mobilize
Realize revitalize let’s become politicized.
We need public safety, and when they cross the line
Take away their license. Stop their private greed and crime
Take away their assets, confiscate their buildings
We should all cooperate, we need a living wage,
All around the Globe and for a six-hour day.
We could go to school, plenty time to love and play.
People hear my song, if you like you can sing along.
rrgoldiii@sbcglobal.net
“It’s faulty thinking to imagine capitalism as simply being the relatively high living standards in the USA, Japan & Western Europe. Those living standards wouldn’t be so high, if OTHER societies in the less-developed world weren’t paying the price for it. The unfair trade relationships imposed by the “developed” (ie, better-armed & more ruthlessly acquisitive) world on the less-developed nations, ever since colonial days, allowed the wealthy nations to live well at the expense of the exploited.”
Racism, the dehumanization of the victims, is the requisite companion of capitalism — they could live like us if only they were willing to work hard & developed ‘democratic’ systems. But since capitalism is precisely the destruction of mutual exchange, since accmulation would be impossible were exchanges continually equal, there is no one left to exploit; leaving the apologist back at position one — there’s something wrong with them since they can’t do what “we” — i.e., our rapacious ancestors & their kin — did & do.
Deprived of armies to destroy peoples & leaders who wish to receive proper value, rather than imposed value, for their work, the capitalist system collapses. Were the leaders of a ‘democratic capitalist’ country to abandon militarism, they would also have to abandon their promises of ‘economic growth.’
By definition communism is an economic system that benefits the vast majority. Webster’s New Universal Unabridged Dictionary defines communism as an economic theory or system of the ownership of all means of production (and distribution) by the community or society, with all members of the community or society sharing in the work and the products.
By the dictionary definition of communism no country in our lifetime has yet been able to establish a communist economic system. Countries like the Soviet Union and China where the proletariat came to power during the industrial revolution and sought to establish communist economic systems, were unable to achieve their goal. They were prevented from reaching full communism – in large part — because the level of technology available at that time co