Legalized Loan Sharking:
The Sleeper Issue of 2008
There’s a sure way that a presidential candidate could get the attention of even the most politically apathetic citizen this year: vow to outlaw outrageous interest rates legally being charged to American consumers by credit card and student loan corporations. These rates are causing real and enduring pain to hard-working Americans and their families who find themselves behind the eight-ball.
Like me.
I’m not much different from a lot of people. Not long ago, I had a credit rating of 755, all my bills were paid on time, and I had no credit card balances outstanding. Then suddenly, I found myself out of work for over 6 months at the age of 39, with two kids in tow (ages 9 and 11). While interviewing for “career positions”, I even tried a stint at Starbucks to tide us over. In my interview, they assured me I’d be able to get forty hours per week as a “barista” (woo-hoo!). But, during my illustrious five-week career, they never gave me more than 10 hours a week (at $7.25 an hour). I was told by fellow employees that my experience was par for the course. As my childcare bill was always bigger than my paycheck, I had to quit. (But I can still make a killer venti decaf cinnamon soy latte.)
The only full-time job offer I received after a diligent search was for a commission-only career position that at least showed promise. I had no option but to take it. While trying to build my business, put food on the table and keep a roof over our heads, I soon had to start using my credit cards, and rapidly maxed-out my $5,500 in available credit.
Before long, having no base salary as a safety net, my bills got paid later and later. Surreal as it seemed, I found myself negotiating payment arrangements with my utility and phone companies, as the disconnect notices arrived in the mail. My stress level went through the roof, and my hair quite literally began falling out.
Fast-forward three years, and that $5,500 turned into $14,000+ in debt. My student loans, which were approximately $42,000 when all of this started, ballooned to $69,000 from late fees and penalties, after I ran out of hardship deferments (and interest kept accruing, even in deferment).
Trying to figure out how I could have gotten into this situation, I examined my credit card statements more closely. Taking for granted the low interest rates I qualified for before all of this happened, I had never expected what I now saw.
To my utter astonishment, I discovered that I was being charged between 22% and 29.5% on all of my balances. This included one card, Care Credit (owned by G.E. Money Bank - hey, why stop at war profiteering?), which is intended to help people stretch out payments for dental and other medical care. The Old Navy card I opened to buy school clothes for the kids was (quelle surprise!) also parented by G.E. Money Bank. Both cards (and others) were charging me nearly 30% interest. For children’s school clothes and family dental care!
Isn’t there a term for near-30% interest on loans? Something like, “loan sharking”? “Usury”??? Does the mafia even charge this much?
It got worse for me from there. When I was able to make the minimum payments, I noticed that my balances kept hitting the ceiling of my credit limit, as soon as I’d get them a little bit below it, costing me a $35 “over limit fee”, in addition to any $35 “late fees” I might incur. That’s every month I was late, and/or over the limit. Which was a lot of months. And interest was compounding on those junk fees, as well as on my balance. I started to wonder, how was I supposed to pay this off?
Conservatives want to deny or ignore the fact that the working poor are using credit cards to provide for necessities - not merely niceties - for their families. A 2005 survey targeting low- to middle-income wage earners entitled “The Plastic Safety Net” (http://www.demos.org/pub654.cfm) found that these families resort to credit cards to cover their lack of health insurance, retirement funds, and unemployment coverage, not their Aspen ski trips.
Republicans will never understand this because most of them haven’t had the humiliating experience of rummaging through their car, purse, and pockets to scrape together $1.70 to buy their child a slice of pizza. That kind of poor is simply beyond the scope of their experience, and therefore, their comprehension. But we can hope to expect better from our Democratic candidates, who fancy themselves advocates of the people.
As if things weren’t already hard enough, the credit card companies got a big gift from the Congress via the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005. (FYI, Biden voted for it; Edwards, Obama, and Kucinich voted against it. Polling data must not have been out in time for Hillary to take a stand.) Don’t let the title fool you: it’s another one of those Orwellian “black is white and up is down” gifts bestowed upon us by BushCo. It gave the credit card companies permission to double your payments in order to change the time required to pay off your balances to 10 years, instead of 20, if you made minimum payments. Trouble is that many people were already hard-pressed to make minimum payments before they doubled.
Another gift to corporate finance woven into that “Consumer Protection” Act was the newly-granted right of these companies to raise rates to usurious heights, and add draconian late and over-limit fees. Horrified yet? Wait — there’s more. If you happen to fall behind on one card, the rates for ALL of your cards can now be bumped up to these stratospheric levels! I kid you not, this even happens to people who are NOT in dire straits, and don’t have bad credit, but simply forget about a payment and get caught in these nets!
In an appreciative nod to their contributors at the banks and credit card companies, Republican legislators also tightened bankruptcy laws. So now, you’re really out of luck if you fall on seriously hard times. Oh - and don’t forget that most people who get in this deep do so because of the expenses associated with a catastrophic illness, a divorce, underemployment, or unemployment.
That, I realized, was how my $5,500 had turned to $14,000+, and how my student loans grew from $42,000 to $69,000 faster than Mickey’s broom multiplied in “Fantasia” … all because of a few years of reversal of fortune.
After 3 ½ years, I finally garnered enough experience to obtain a position with a base salary, plus commission, etc. Now, my bills are being paid on time again (and I’ve noticed my hair growing back in). But I’ve still got these balances from hell, and you don’t even want to know my credit score.
There are too many people living this same nightmare… and worse.
If a candidate wants to know how to be carried to victory on a groundswell of popular outrage in 2008, here’s their answer. This issue will resonate with a lot of angry voters looking for their government to give them some protection from corporate pillaging. It’s the sleeper issue of the decade.
John Edwards, anti-poverty poster child, are you listening? You’re whispering about it this, but you need to start shouting. Senator Obama, this issue is a sure enough thing that even you could take a position on it! Hillary? Oh, never mind.
This unconscionable legislation has its foot on the neck of increasing numbers of the middle class, and stomps on their fingers as they dangle precipitously from the ledge of financial security, only to slip off and fall into the ranks of the “working poor”.
I found a foothold, and pulled myself up on the ledge again — scrapes, bruises and all.
Millions of others won’t be so lucky.
Marney White is an ordinary American living on Long Island with her family, assorted cats, and a tank full of tetras. She welcomes comments at Marney_White@verizon.net
This is an excellent story, and I am so pleased that someone has made it available. The experience of the author is common place now. And, far too many have yet to find a foothold.
So, I hope this awareness will create some changes as we select new leaders. (That’s becoming tricky as well.)
What would you expect from a republican controlled band of theives in congress and the white house. The get their support from the banking and loan sharking (credit card) industry, and in return they offer them legislation that supports that industry.
Credit card companies target people through ads to get them to go into debt by suggesting that they NEED non-essential items to be cool, hip, or it’s a MUST HAVE toy.
Lately one credit card ad on TV has targeted students to take out “up to $40,000 per year” and not have to pay it back until after they graduate. That’s a lot of money to be in debt, just starting out.
Edward1793 both the Democrats and the Republicans are equally complicit in the ursury system. Check out the donations by Visa’s lobbyists here:
http://tinyurl.com/2sltkz
Between students loans, car loans, house loans/mortgage payments, April 15th taxes (it all goes to the federal reserve to pay down the interest on the national debt) and credit cards we are all in debtors prisons. I believe an economic crash is coming as this inflated credit bubble cannot last.
I have recently received a credit card bill with a rate of 32.24% apr. This is the highest I have ever heard of.
I got fell into this cycle by missing a payment when I moved two years ago.
It is so very transparently rapine and pillage, it is hard to understand how even the credit card companies could think it would go on.
Again, the Republican mantra is personal responsibility. That means that people can lie, cheat and steal and it is your fault if you fall for it..as W. would have said it he could have without messing it up..”fool me once”..or something like that.
Seriously, we all know that there have to be laws to protect people and that you have to enforce those laws. But as long as we allow Republicans to spew trash like “free markets” with a smirk on their faces, then we are going to have this form of criminality.
The original banking theory started out with a spread of 2-3 basis points between the interest you recieve and the interest they charge to cover the administrative costs. Now you have banks giving 3% return on your investment, excuse to charge higher rate for a default, abilty to invest your money in high risk gambles and an Uncle Sam called Fed bank to infuse money for their gambling losses. The consumer is cheated royally. These guys have no shame going to church/synagouge and wash their sins by weekend. It is utopic to expect these guys to follow Jesus/Moses by heart not by mouth.
Student loans are the mother of all traps. DO NOT TAKE THEM. If you cannot afford to go to college without them, go to a State University, or join the reserve and get GI Bill. The government loves student loans because they cannot be discharged in bankruptcy, and once you have something like this persons $42K in debt you must work forever to pay them. DON’T DO IT.
This is not just a Republican issue. Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont and many other “finance” democrats signed this monstrously evil and cruel bill. Most people are not trying to hide behind bankruptcy, as many studies have proven. The bill was not about cheats. It was about making more money and further indenturing people to the debt slavery system. Most people who have credit problems have lost their job, have used credit to stay alive or come out of the military with no prospects and no money. After Iraq, debt. Thanks for helping us out.
Lobbying is the real culprit. The “bought and paid for by corporate interests” Congress. Leahy’s vote, the vote of a senator from a poor, rural state should have been political suicide, but looking at Leahy’s financing revels that his heaviest contributors are, you guessed it, banks. Senators and Congressmen don’t need credit cards and no longer represent anyone who does. They are the new aristocratic class.
Thanks Marney for this excellant piece of truth ,written exceptionally well!Captain Video has it spot on too.I recently used a check card ,you know a debit card at the grocery store for a small purchase.I exceeded my balance by $2.00 .The bank paid the overdraft but charged me $29.95 in penalties.While my acount was overdrawn there was a $6.95 a day charge to my account and I was notified by mail two days later ,however I did not get to the post office for a week.A week of $6,95 was $34.75 plus the $29.95 penalty came to $64.70.That is 32 and a third times the overdraft of two dollars,in one week!Thats alot of vigorish !Mafia loan sharks should have it so good! Peace
IRS the Federal Reserve is no more Federal then Federal Express. It is a privately owned bank that is never audited, never questioned, and is extremely powerful in determining how much interest we will all owe on everything especially housing and income taxes. A good movie on the subject:
http://tinyurl.com/23drlk
Yes, credit card companies are like the mafia. I have never owned a credit card myself, and I’m married, raised two kids with special needs, sent them to college (their college was paid for by state and federal grants) own a house, and have never had a family income over $26,000. Of course, when our kids were small there was still medicaid, food stamps, Section 8, Head Start and Children With Special Health Care Needs, all of which have been curtailed or gutted. The reason that people like Ms. White are forced to turn to credit cards during times of hardship is that there is no social safety net in this country. If she lived in Western Europe, or even several “Third World” countries, her needs would have been met by the state. Instead, she was forced to become an indentured servant to the credit card companies and the bank that holds her student loan. Credit is a trap–a way to keep citizens enslaved to the system. Try to avoid buying anything on credit, and, as Felipe Calderon said above, don’t take out student loans, go to a state university. Our kids’ college education, including books and fees, were 100% paid for by state and federal grants. This was partially because of our income, but in some states (New Mexico, for instance), state colleges are free to residents regardless of income. A friend of mine had a son at a state university in New Mexico who did a year at the University of Oregon under an exchange program, and the state of New Mexico paid for that, too. Don’t believe all the BS about the need to have a good credit score, either. I had NO credit score, because I had never bought anything on credit, and my wife had a bad credit score because of some old unpaid medical bills, and yet a local credit union gave us a conventional mortgage on a three bedroom house that looks like a villa in Provence or Tuscany, with payments that were less than most people pay for renting a one-bedroom apartment. A friend of mine went through bankrupcy and less than a year later bought a $21,000 car on credit. The banks and credit card companies just want you to think that your life will be ruined if you stop paying them. The reality is that they are as addicted to lending as consumers are to borrowing.
Republicans will never understand this because most of them haven’t had the humiliating experience of rummaging through their car, purse, and pockets to scrape together $1.70 to buy their child a slice of pizza.
if you’re so poor you can’t afford $1.70 slice of pizza, you probably shouldn’t have a car. it’s crap like this that really irks me. people have become so dependent on cars that they oftentimes become makeshift homes when people finally hit rock bottom.
i agree with the author. we are difinitely living in the time of mafia style corporate government control. it’s like uncle sam has got one hand in your back pocket stealing ur money while his other hand is in ur crotch raping you for good measure.
fuck america!
I wonder what would happen if everyone skipped paying their credit card bills for a month or two. or altogether.
f**k the CC companies–they’re crooks, and they use our money to finance their Kleptocracy, formerly known as the United States of America
Having been in her situation, I can wholeheartedly empathize, but there is one troubling thing at the end of the article. It states that she lives with an assortment of cats and a tank full of tetras (which I assume are some sort of fish). If she had to scrape around in her car to find $1.70 for a slice of pizza, while she had these animals, something’s definitely wrong. The article doesn’t address whether that’s the case, but it often is, and if you have to scrape for money while feeding and taking care of pets, your priorities are a little mixed up.
Predatory lending is a term that describes the practices of all lenders. There are no longer defined legal limitations in the United States on predatory lenders. Since usury laws ended in the early 80’s there has been a consolidation of unethical lending under laws that the banking industry shepherded through congress and state legislatures. These laws hurt the middle class in insidious ways that allow lenders to advance plainly criminal lending to the working class. Financial institution standard practices maximize their effect by an invented credit reporting and credit score scheme that is legitimized through propaganda advertised to Americans daily while lenders sell the idea retail. Most people pay 4-6% points above their risk level under this scheme. Over many years the American public lose much of what might have been savings for retirement to these predators. This is perhaps the true meaning of bank robbery: the bank robs the customer
superheinz:
It is obvious you been in Ms White’s situation. Your comments make about as much sense as our idiot president’s comments about poor people with sick children — Take them to the emergency room!
I lost my business during the days of the dot.com debacle. I was on shaky financial ground, but recovering, when 9/11 hit. From that point until just recently I can totally relate to Ms White’s story. What kept me sane during the past six or so years were my dogs. No, I don’t have human children; my dogs are my family. If not for them, many days I was so depressed I would not have even gotten out of bed. If not for them, I would not have fought so hard to keep my home, and yes, I guess I’m part of the reason the housing market is falling through the floor. I refinanced twice in order to stay afloat.
I know of elderly people caught in the same type of situation: A fixed income, increased expenses, and credit card debt. Again, if not for their cats and dogs, they might have lost their will to live.
Did you ever consider that the cats and fish may be part of Ms White’s family, or the pain her children would have felt if they “gave them away?” I’ll bet they would have given up their pizza to feed their pets rather than not to have them at all.
No, I know her priorities were in the right place. Heart trumps logic, thank goodness!
“Capitslism is, and always has been, horror without end.”
“Calederon” writes
“If you cannot afford to go to college without them, go to a State University, or join the reserve and get GI Bill.”
Military recruitment much? “Sell your body to the war machine” — oh, wait, we already have.
I’m offended by the two sanctimonious prigs who dare to nag this woman about whose life they know absolutely nothing. “You shouldn’t have a car if you can’t afford pizza” (imagine church lady voice) “If you can’t afford food why do you have pets?” (I’m imagining Mrs. Lovejoy from the Simpsons on that one). When you are in those dire straits every little comfort you have becomes a buoy to keep you from sinking, a reminder that life can be worth living. And a car, for someone who doesn’t live in the city, is a lifeline… how do you get to the doctor without it? The dentist? Work? Handle a non-ambulance emergency? I’ve been there; have you? No, I imagine you’ve never faced having to live without the trust fund - am I right? Congratulations on pulling yourself out, Ms. White, my regards to the cats.
Hawkwind
If you were in trouble and someone handed you a gun with one bullet, they’d be charged with a crime. If they hand you a credit card, they’re saviors? Far from it. CREDIT IS NOTHING BUT A TRAP TO KEEP YOU ENSLAVED TO THE CAPITALIST SYSTEM. DO NOT FALL FOR CREDIT IN ITS MANY GUISES.
Really, giving away the family pets or euthanizing them is not a financial solution.
America is a land of vast resources, resources should be equally accessable for all, along with the resposibiliy of stewardship. Our government should stop giving it away to corporations that provide little or no stewardship and then sell us back our own resources.
“Nobody can do what Countrywide can.”
Similar story, different strategy: $90G in the hole (most accrued as the result of a trama, plus penalties and the rape-interest,) force to live the cash life. Credit rating: zero. Certain employers, it turns out, will not hire bad credit risks cause “studies” show said bad risks are more likely to steal. The TSA works off the same theory. Many “landlords” will not rent to bad credit risks, even with extra advance cash payments. On the other hand, a debit card covers nearly every other situation, and keeps ya honest - you only spend what you have.
Unless there’s an emergency anytime in the near future. Then, of course, we’re screwed…
Same sort of thing. Heart trauma (3 open heart surgeries) lost business, credit went to crap, now unable to be hired in my field because of credit. Had to start my own business again, borrowing money to do so.
Marney’s experience is shared by many, including myself. I struggled for nearly twenty years after getting out of school. After ten years I quit using credit. But ten years after tearing up my credit cards, I was still paying on them, with a 32% interest rate.
Of course, without credit cards or the opportunity to create a pile of savings (I paid on student loans for 18 years), I also had a pile of medical debts. The last car loan I had was 29% — on a five year car loan!!! Finally, after slipping on my self-employed taxes, I threw in the towell. Here’s where it got really interesting: The person ahead of me at the bankruptcy office had two homes, without mortgages, and his own business. He kept everything and got a discharge of all debts. I had nothing, but had shuttered my business and taken a job. So I got shoved into a repayment plan, forking over 20% of my pay for five years.
Because I am in bankruptcy, I can’t even rent an apartment. Utility companies charge me the highest rates; banks place 20 day holds on my payroll checks and some want co-signers to open a savings account. I live on cash and am viewed with suspicion as a result.
Because of the credit reporting industry, there will never be a fresh start for me or anyone like me. I am lower than a peasant because I have no credit and own no property.
“Capitalism is horror without end.”
Many people are learning this without having to delve into revolutionary texts.
They need to go to the bookstores & libraries & the internet & find the texts to find the voice for what inevitably happens under capitalism.
Marxists.org is a good place to begin.
Maybe the poster that was upset about her having pets thought she should eat them? I swear some people are just heartless. I can hear that conversation now with the kids
“Sorry kids, we’re broke right now, so tonight we’re having Fido burgers, I know you’ll miss him”…
“Isn’t there a term for near-30% interest on loans? Something like, “loan sharking”? “Usury”??? Does the mafia even charge this much?”
Central banks continue to engage in what I consider “legal loan sharking” because it is in the vested interests of those they serve - spendthrift politicians and money lenders who control our economy and maintain the status quo of the tiny but powerful elite. Keeping the majority in debt is the only way politicians can maintain control and expand the sick ideology of the super-wealthy who have been buying legislation since this country was established.
The mass media and most historians fail to discuss how the dominant class in this country and throughout the world have gone about achieving their goals….by supporting predatory banking systems.
“As if things weren’t already hard enough, the credit card companies got a big gift from the Congress via the Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005. (FYI, Biden voted for it; Edwards, Obama, and Kucinich voted against it.”
Yup, that’s right Marney. 19 Democrats and every Republican voted in favor of this legistlation which was written to protect the “predatory” banking system/industry and the majority in the House & Senate who undoubtedly received benefits in the form of campaign contributions from either the banks or the large corporations they loan money to and whose boards of directors they sit on to call the shots.
If the majority in this country had knowledge of how this government works in cooperation with a banking system that has managed to screw-up our economy with their bogus lending policies, you would see millions of citizens in the streets protesting.
The Bankruptcy Reform Bill wasn’t the only gift given to the Central Banks. Do you remember the Savings and Loan Scandal back in the late 80’s when the Resolution Trust Company, a/k/a the U.S. Government, bailed them out to the tune of $500+ billion? Well, guess what? The government is bailing-out the banking system again in the “sub-prime” loan scandal.
Until the idiots in this country DEMAND campaign finance reform, we can expect to pay these scumbags the interest that our government allows them to collect, usury or not, according to the laws they have put in place.
We all saw this coming with Bush’s bankruptcy law. It was a setup by the banks to make debt slaves. That much was crystal clear and yet our Congress voted for it anyway. Will we ever vote for these people again?
Now add in adjustable housing prices based on a Prime Rate of 1.00% or so and we have the well forseen catastrophy infecting the banking industry today. We can’t pay the mortgage OR sell the house - debtor’s prison here we come. Thus dies the American dream, not with a bang but with a whimper.
We must remember that poor people and poor countries throughout the world have been and are being devoured by International Loan Sharks - called the World Bank and the IMF. Run by our own NeoCons as I recall.
And so it goes. When will this nation of sheep quit trying to squeeze through the eye of a needle for corporate greed and enjoy the simple life of Waldon Pond? I think that we owe that life’s lesson to our children.
It’s curious, also, how monthly amortization (for instance, a home mortgage) hides the fact a 5% loan on something like $100K over 30 years is actually more like 93% interest or somesuch last I calculated it: http://ray.met.fsu.edu/~bret/amortize.html
We’ve got rampant usury in our society.
Amazing so many democratic presidential hopefuls (?)voted for the law that made this happen. This was one of Obama’s first votes…so much for all his promises. Check out the financing of his Senate campaign and you’ll know why he voted yes. Keep in mind, that 29% is often and mostly PLUS prime on your cards.
I thank Marney for sharing her story and I’m damn glad she could find some joy in fish and cats. God knows we need some love in this world
The Preditors among us are the Sociopathic American Corporations. The people in charge look like us, talk like us but look at us as prey. The results touch our lives every day, even as they cut us out of the herd one at a time. I wonder if we will know it is time to turn on them before we are gone.
That ‘ordinary American’ needs to learn to quit blaming others for her decisions. If the rates are too high or you don’t like the terms…don’t borrow the money. It really is, just that simple. The continual refusal to accept responsibility for one’s own choices and actions in this entire article is stunning.
The fact is, if these loans and rates didn’t exist..she would never have gotten the money she needed in the first place. What’s better…CHOOSING to take a loan or making a charge, or not even being able to if she wants to?
Buck up, take responsibility as a conscious ADULT for your charges and loans. We’re not here to be your playthings.
Someone posted a note about “Money as Debt” a video you can google and watch for free. It sheds great light on our system of money. The plight of many Americans has created a rampant underground / private economy. I get e-mails about them all the time. People are opting out and finding ways around their credit scores. Something is happening in this economy and it aint pretty.
To the people that lectured Ms White about owning a car:
What world do you live in? I take the bus every day because I am appalled at the gas prices. Every day I see young single moms struggling on the bus with strollers and baby carriers, trying to calm, screaming children while the other riders glare at them. Hell, they work hard, too.
If you choose to live where a car is not necessary to get to work, you end up paying an exorbitant amount for rent. If you move out to where the rent is reasonable, the mass transit is not doable or is unreliable. The working person really can’t win in this regard. Think before you post.
Hey mountain goat, you still eat sh*t? Like the other goats?
Is it really a mastter of “chossing” to buy your child $50 worth of school supplies at Target when all your money just went for food, rent and utilities?? Are you supposed to send him to school empty handed—or better yet, swipe the necessary items—-if you refuse to borrow? As a single adult there were plenty of weeks I did without, or got by on one meal a day. But you can’t ask kids to make those kinds of sacrifices.
So I guess your next comment will be that only those with six-figure incomes should have the right to reproduce. Right?
Fractional reserve banking system, how America went bankrupt…
I’m sure that if MtnGoat will help us butt a few political heads we can get Universal Health Care like the rest of the civilized world and most of these tragic bankruptcies need not occur.
BTW, I see that real sharks have the genes to make fingers and toes. Obviously, unlike loan sharks, they also have the compassion not to use them to pick our pockets or kick us when we are down. And the great shroud of the sea rolls on…
Rush Limbaugh had the stupidity to declare that credit had nothing whatsoever to do with our economy. That it didn’t effect it to any major degree..
What an IDIOT.
National Association of Realtors donations to Congress:
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.asp?ID=D000000062
No wonder the cost of housing has tripled!!! Google Case-Shiller index.
Equally outragges is the student loan industry an $85 billion dollar business for the banks!
There was a post on Huffington a week or two back about credit cards and all the mailings we get everyday enticing us to take their card and the low (introductory) interest rates. The author (I’m sorry I don’t recall his name) explained that credit card companies DON’T want you to be able to pay off the balance every month. They don’t want financially comfortable people they want people to struggle and meet the minimum payment only! Then they can AND WILL hit you with usary rates and lot’s of vigorish and late fees. It is planned to work that way, WE are viewed as prey and anyone who subscribers to their card WILL be picked up and shaken upside down until ALL the money falls from their pockets. If you want a little revenge, send back the postage paid envelopes with lots of blank paper in them, try to make the companies have to pay excess postage fees (yea it’s childish, but) it’s a bit satisying. Get a debit card and keep an eye on how you use it. My wife and I spent several years living on cash only and it’s amazing how much more thrifty you are. When you go to the grocery store and you’ve got ten bucks in your pocket you ONLY buy what you went in there for, when you use your debit card the impulse is to succumb to the stores merchandising. The banking and credit industry is legalized theft, but we can’t expect politicians to do anything about it, they are as crooked as most business in this country is anymore. Maybe term limits would work, but we tried them in Michigan and we still have the yahoos doing favors for “friends and those who donate to the camaign. Here they just switch from the house to the senate to avoid the term limits. Scum one and all!
Caelidh August 19th, 2007 1:49 am
“Rush Limbaugh had the stupidity to declare that credit had nothing whatsoever to do with our economy. That it didn’t effect it to any major degree.. What an IDIOT.”
Rush Limbaugh has made a fortune promoting lies to the majority of his listeners who are incapable of critical thinking. I would suggest the bullsh*t he spews to his audience is dangerously calculating in an effort to protect the interests of the corporatocracy and his own cushy job.
Limbaugh is cunning and plays the self-interest game very well.
Mntgoat is full of shit like W. When W was running for president, he visited an army base. When asked about the fact that many people in the army had to resort to food stamps to get by, W had the nerve to tell them, like mntgoat, that they needed to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps.” What a hypocritical SOB. Bush and family have sucked off the American tit for so many years, one can’t begin to count them. Bush’s brother ripped off the Silvarado Savings & Loan and the taxpayers bailed them out; they’ve gotten rich off of war investments through the Caryle Group, and the f**ker is still eating at the trough while he destroys this country and shits on its Constitution. Every business decision W has ever made was a diaster, and he had daddy Cheney to bail him out while the other investors in his oil company –Arbusto went bust. How dare these bastards to smirk and lecture others about being self-sufficient!!! When the middle-clas and would-be middle-class see these crooks for what they are and no one pays them a single cent, then we might get somewhere. Yes, if the game were not rigged and if the companies were honest, then people ought to pay their debts. Having been screwed over by credit card companies, and out-right theft by Citifinancial, I know what some of these people are going through. Citifi after having taken over Associates continued that company’s illegalities. They take your money and post it in strange ways, they do “reverse payments” which they refuse to explain–and engage in all sorts of theft. They call your house ten times a day threatening all sorts of crap. They even sent me a letter telling me my mortage was like a credit card and they could treat it as such, charing daily interest. But for years, they would send me no explanation of why they were demanding more and more money, and no matter how much I sent them, it was never enough. Before I realized they were doing this to lots of people, I thought I was doing something wrong. They have a predatory-lending type contract with me, but that wasn’t enough, they had to post funds so that my payments did not pay off the mortgage in time. I initially had a $10,000 loan and paid $3,000 against it in one year, then borrowed another 15,000–on that $25,000, I have paid back over $72,000 in 15 years. They called demanding more–saying I still owe them $3,000. My son made an Excel spreadsheet according to the payments I have made and the terms of my contract–he informs me that if they had applied my monies properly, my loan would have been paid off and an additional $20,000 I paid was unnnecessary. I sent them a letter telling them this, and demanding my deed to be cleared and that they return the $20,000. I have since heard nothing from them–no calls, no letters. I had to declare bankruptcy because of credit cards that were charging interest through the roof–I declared bankruptcy TO STOP THE INTEREST AND LATE PAYMENTS. I received about $4,000 in goods and services and the other $11,000 was interest and late payments and fees. I paid all of that off within five years. Please Mtngoat don’t lecture me and others about responsiblity. I have had responsibility up the ass. I am just thankful my children are grown so that I am no longer a wage slave–if I starve, that’s my affair. If you have little ones, you are a hostage to this f*cking deadbeat system. I am going to post a poem I wrote in the next block so that anyone who does not want to read it can skip it–but it sums up the way I feel about this society and one’s obligation to work and be productive. Mtngoat and W, kiss my ass and save rhetoric for someone who hasn’t been screwed.
Mortgages are ALL rip-offs if you look at what you actually pay over the course of it. Mine is for 130,000 and if I pay on time over the life of the loan I will have paid the original amount off just shy of THREE TIMES. So for their 130K investment they are getting back over 300K. Pretty nice profit huh?
A Modern Day Diogenes
Twas an early morning in autumn with a hint of winter in the air
As I walked toward my place of work, I had to stop and stare
It was sheer curiosity on my part and I ought to have gone on walking
But a homeless man and a finely dressed lady were in the midst of talking.
The homeless man sat on a bench with the sun upon his face
And the finally dressed lady stood close by all dressed in silks and lace.
And it was this total incongruity that sparked my curiosity.
As I stood close by and eavesdropped on what was said between the two
I guess that it is fair to say that I learned something new
That I had no known before I stopped to listen in the way
And I must admit that I have looked at things a bit differently since that day.
The lady introduced herself as belonging to one of the town’s religious sects
And she took great pains to inform the man of his current lack of prospects.
But he could change in just a few steps–and she was more than willing to offer her help.
“You can start by taking a shower down at the local mission place.
You’ll look good in a new set of clothes and a cleanly shaven face.
You seem an able-bodied man, and it is a sin your talents have no enjoyment
When with a little effort on your part, you’ll be presentable for employment.
If you will tell me what you can do, I’m sure we will find a way
To have you employed and earning money by the end of this very day.
The man took a deep breath and sighed before he looked up and replied:
“Well, I thank you ma’am for your concern and I am sure you mean me well.
I thank you for telling me how to find heaven and to avoid hell.
I thank you also for your offer of help in a gainful employment search
And as you seem interested in what I can do, I’ll aid you in your research.
I appreciate all you’re trying to do, and please don’t think I don’t
But before I can tell you what I can do, I’ll tell you what I won’t.
I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but I don’t think I’m worth all your trouble.
I won’t be a medicine man who charges more than one usually pays for rent
Who goes on strike and the death rate falls by thrity-five percent.*
I won’t work for a drug company pushing pills that might destroy your liver
And makes all sorts of healing claims on which they can’t deliver.
Of course, I could leave that job and work for the FDA;
And switch back and forth as it suited me like a ping pong ball in play.
I guess you think it haughty of me to snub–membership in such a cozy club.
I won’t be a legal man who represents the rich and tends to spurn the needy
And often times is more incompetent than he is actually greedy.
I’ve seen some men and women with bar cards whose incompetence made me sob
While a kid with a GED and a love of the law could do a better job.
Sometimes the legal field becomes complacent and lazy
And such an insane game that a man of ordinary sense is driven crazy.
Some lawyers take a contingency fee; if there’s a million for him and a hundred for me.
I won’t be a judge who gets paid to slam the jailhouse door
On poor fools who have incompetent lawyers because, well, they’re poor.
I won’t be a warden or a prison guard who will give you a thousand reasons
Why your tax money ought to go for more and bigger prisons.
I won’t be a cop who feels threatened if some black kid looks him in the eye
Or if that kid should curse him, thinks that kid deserves to die.
Sometimes cops make a stand, thinking its a gun and a badge that make a man.
I won’t work in a nuclear power plant, which is nothing but a big boiling kettle
I would like to think I’m made of sterner stuff and of a better mettle
Than to produce thousands of gallons of toxic waste with no place to put it but drums
Where it can kill your children’s children from now to kingdom come.
Who wants a mess in their backyard which can lead to catastrophic slaughter?
Does it make sense to do all of this just to boil some water?
I wonder if the people realize, this is what their tax dollars subsidize.
I won’t work for GE who “brings good things to life” along with bombs and such
A precision pilot in a precision plane can have a precision touch
Only to discover that the precision bomb blew civilians to smithereens
And the politicians who ordered it all remain extremely calm and serene.
If you call the dead insurgents who will know or who will care?
Meanwhile defense companies watch the increase in the price of their shares.
With a war going full blast, Raytheon is hiring at last.
I won’t be a Tony Snow who wants a job so badly that to win it
He will sell his soul and then must take any old lie and try to spin it.
I won’t be a congressman who sends our soldiers to oil-rich lands to die
Because it was more expedient to go along then to ask the question “Why?”
I won’t be a lying president who misleads the nation into war
And kills tens of thousands of civilians and desires to kill some more.
I guess what I want you to see, is politics are not for me.
I won’t be a preacher who warns of hell in exchange for his pay
And says if you want to attain heaven you must do just what I say.
I won’t be a teacher who teaches your kids to memorize rather than think
Or to march in line and raise their hands to go to pee or get a drink.
I won’t drill into their heads that authority must always be obeyed
In fact, I’m sure I’d teach them to question it, so I wouldn’t last a day.
This is a not a society–that will suffer gladly variety.
I won’t be a diamond merchant whose wealth comes from working slaves
Who must mine the land that ought rightly to be theirs anyway.
They work in terrible conditions, in what used to be their land
So that some nice lad can put a ring upon some lassie’s hand.
I won’t give you money for your car title at an interest you can’t repay
Or take most of your money for cashing a check, and then send you on your way.
These are the ones that Jesus Christ would take his whip to without thinking twice.
I won’t give predatory loans in an office on main street
And spend a million bucks on advertising to make it seem legit
Guido is Guido whether in the mob or in a three-piece business stripe
But Guido just breaks your leg while the legit guy ruins your life.
The “family Values” folk say the Ten Commandments ought to be in every school
I say they ought to attach them to every business license and every legal rule.
Little kids don’t steal, kill, and sin. No, it’s politicians and businessmen.
I won’t push credit cards that send families deeper into debt
Leading to more broken homes than adultery or alcohol has yet.
And congressmen and women just keep taking money from Citi-Fi
While the politicians and preachers wring their hands and pretend to wonder why.
The churches keep on harping on sinful movies and on Hollywood birds
And assure us all our ills would disappear along with illicit sex and dirty words.
Family values folks have perception refusal, seeing financial sins as business as usual.
I thank you lady for trying your best but as I told you from the start
I don’t think you and I will see eye to eye or even heart to heart.
I don’t want you to help me conquer worlds or enlist me to help those who do.
Enough mischief gos on in the world, would you have me add mine too?
So I would only ask one favor, and beg you not to look so stunned
The morning is cool, can you step aside, for you are blocking out my sun.
After hearing that homeless man that day, I’ve never looked at work in quite the same way.
Notes: In 1976 in Bogota, Columbia, there was a 52-day strike in which doctors saw only emergency care. According to the “National Catholic Reporter” the death rate went down 35%. An 18% drop in the death rate occurred in Los Angeles Country in 1976 when doctors went on strike to protest increase in mal-practice premiums. In 1973, according to the Jerusalem Burial Siociety, the Israeli death rate dropped by 50% during the month in which doctors reduced their patient contact from 65,000 to 7,00. See: Confessions of a Medical Heretic by Roert S. Mendelsohn, M.D., Contemporary Books, inc. Chicago, 1979, p. 114.
Diogenes was the founder of the Cynics in ancient Greece. It is said that he lived in a large broken clay jar on the outskirts of Athens. He allegedly walked around with a latern purporting to look for an honest man. When Alexander the Great approached Diogenes and asked “Oh, Diogenese what can the mightly Alexander do for you?” It is said that the philosopher looked up and replied: “you can stand aside as you are blocking my sunlight.”
Marney,
Thank you for sharing your personal, sad story. Talk about predatory behavior!
These banks worked for over a decade to implement that bankruptcy bill, lubricating many political hands before finally achieving success. This bill is one of many examples of why we must end private campaign financing in order to save our country.
Had the congress people been beholden to the citizens who ostensibly elected them to office instead of their wealthy banking benefactors, this bill would never have been passed.
The Medicare drug bill was yet another example of a sweetheart deal for pharmaceutical companies – after the application of sufficient lubrication to venal politicians. This drug “benefit” is accomplishing little more than enriching already rich corporations, while hastening the bankruptcy of the country.
Politicians are not only apathetic about the plight of citizens such as yourself, they don’t even care about the fate of the country. Their only concern is getting reelected so as to keep gorging at the trough of money which we involuntarily supply.
The system is rotten to the core. It’s sickening.
I don’t see how we can fix the system from within the system. Some people suggest we ought to have a revolution. That’s preposterous. Americans are remarkably complacent and docile compared to other people, and besides, conditions have not yet deteriorated enough to animate Americans into real action. When a large percentage of Americans are living in their cars and struggling to survive, then maybe they will feel they have nothing to lose by becoming activist.
In the meantime, what can we do? The only cure for our decaying political system is to eliminate private campaign financing, to make the politicians beholden to the public and not the corporate lobbyists. But how can we do that? The politicians have zero interest in such a reform; the current system is too lucrative for them. In addition to campaign contributions, the politicians enjoy lavish paid junkets, meals, gifts, and club memberships. Who would want to give all that up? Sure, every now and then they pay lip service to campaign finance reform to pacify the masses, who then pipe down and go back to watching American Idol or some other televised “circus.”
I think a simple, non-violent way to shake up the system would be for everyone to refuse to vote. That would totally de-legitimize the system and maybe rattle it so much that it opens up an opportunity to implement the said campaign finance reform. Beating our heads against a corrupt system in the hope that something good happens, is idiotic. What is it people say is the definition of insanity? Something like engaging in the same behavior and expecting different results? It’s time to engage in a different behavior, or rather, refrain from the behavior of voting.
Dave
Here is a hot flash, don’t vote, or vote, either way it doesn’t matter your vote isn’t counted if everyone stayed home we would still have a less than 50% turnout according to the numbers, and the elite would still be elected. Sure sheeple you get to choose which rich bastard gets to screw you this cycle. Yup, american dreaming all the way.
HOLYMOLY: Wonderful poem and interesting prior post. I, too, have lived (and learned to live) on low income. When I had a late fee put on a card, I would call up and politely ask that it be removed as I feel I am diligent about debts and everyone is late now and then. They always comply. Second, MANY cards offer 0% interest for 9 months, so you can move debt from one card to another as I have done for several years. As long as you don’t miss a payment, they keep their word. One must use tricks to beat them at their own game!
I, too, have battled credit card companies who eagerly increase your rate when you are in trouble and miss a payment.
DON’T PAY IT! If you are overextended or out of work, don’t make the mistake of trying to keep things going by using savings, etc. to keep things going. When I lost regular employment, I should have immediately called credit card companies and told them so. They have programs that will allow you to make reduced payments, reduced interest. You don’t have to go through a debt consolidation program to sign up for it. Call yourself and tell them you want to pay off your balance but without a job you are unable.
A lot of people are suffering through this right now. And of course unemployed American citizens might consider those jobs that we allegedly don’t want, but it seems all those are taken.
In my 50s, I am finding it difficult–for the first time in my life–to find a reliable,decently salaried job. I think my age must have something to do with it. I’m disgusted.
The banks have all turned us into serfs. A serf during the middle ages was in debt and could not own thier homes. How many people do you know who actually own their homes free and clear of their mortgage? Even then they still have to pay taxes on their home.
IMPORTANT _ YOU CAN LIVE IN THIS WORLD WITHOUT A CREDIT CARD. Boycott the bastards. I’ve never used a credit card. Not once. In my 40+ years of life.
I’m a successful professional with a wife and two kids. My job involves heavy travel, and we have a normal lifestyle, but without a single card.
There are occasional inconveniences, but debit cards are a great help for online purchases. Enterprise rents cars to people without credit cards. Trust me, any American _ or anyone else _ can live without plastic. Destroy yours now.
IT’S THE ONLY WAY TO FIGHT BACK. These jackals only understand cash, not reason or humanity.
Marney, God bless you. Thanks a lot for being honest.
Sadly, it’s not just the lending agencies or, more broadly, corporate power, that’s behind America’s current financial and social decline. It’s jackass neocon citizens like “MtnGoat.” Cruelty has power in our society.
It’s also many poor or struggling middle class Americans themselves. Don’t kid yourself. Their hatred of what they call “Liberals” is so snarling vicious, so willfully ignorant and absolutely blind, that they’ll consistently vote and argue against their own interests _ and against their children’s interests _ for the sake of their hateful, half-baked ideology. Note MtnGoat.
He typifies the attitude of right-wing Americans _ even those who ARE poor _ toward the poor and struggling.
“The continual refusal to accept responsibility for one’s own choices and actions in this entire article is stunning.”
That’s it right there. Perverting the good, traditional value of individual responsibility, and losing sight of the better, human values of kindness and understanding. The woman who wrote this, like many other Americans who’ve struggled with debt, is just trying to lead a normal life and give her kids comfort.
MtnGoat _ go back to your mountains, subhuman. You and your kind have destroyed our country, sacrificing your compatriots on your altar of your anal prissiness.
Siouxrose, thanks for the feedback. My lifetime of working has done a couple of things: bought some groceries for the family and has given me “experience.” There is an old saying: experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want. Suffice it to say, I’ve gotten a lot of experience. Unfortunately, it has turned me rather bitter in a lot of ways as I am sure my post and outburst toward Mntgoat indicated. I am just way tired of playing by the rules to suddenly realize the rules are all rigged. I’m glad you are playing the credit card companies by using their own rules. I despise them so much that the other day when I heard that a man in Vermont had filed bankruptcy and because he had no property for the bastards to seize, they had to dismiss $70,000 in credit card debt. Yipee!!! The bank robbers finally get robbed! I was brought up with all the middle-class wanna be rules: pay your debts, tell the truth, treat others fairly, yadda yadda. I also grew up in a time when people seemed to care about each other–all that has seemed to go out of the window. Now, it is make a buck no matter what you have to do. This made me seriously consider the nature of work–that old calvinistic guilt about one should always work and “if you don’t work you don’t eat.” Also, they get us by trying to shame us if we must go into bankruptcy. It is rather like the shame they tried (and did) instill in a lot of us about our naked bodies. Sometimes I think if everyone would declare bankruptcy and run naked down the street, we would be a better nation for it. OK, everyone may not find the scene attractive, but at least if they can’t shame you by your nakedness it would do the police or military no good to strip search you and strip you to shame you as they did the poor prisoners in Abu Ghraib.
Interestingly, I discovered that most of the work done in this society is downright harmful to others and those who eat the best and the “highest on the hog” as the old saying goes, seem to be the ones to do the most harm. So, we need to change our middle-class ways of looking at the world and instead of blaming victims, realize who are the real culprits. If you are on a jury realize that when people are beaten down by financial institutions, they are not always psychologically strong enough to negotiate and to use the rules to beat the crooks. Obviously, siouxrose, you are in a position to assert yourself. When I was at my weakest and my spouse was dying of cancer, I heard threats from these bastards on a daily basis. I went to a CPA who informed me that they were not following my contract; he didn’t know exactly why, but said they weren’t. Of course, I paid for this advice. I went to three attorneys–one of whom admitted he did not look at my paperwork except superficially but said I probably had a “class action lawsuit” on the face of it with probably $2,000 for my part, and another lawyer said they should have responded to my request for additional information, but that I had not used the proper terminology which was a “qualified written request” instead of “why are you charging these charges with no explanation.” So round and round I’ve gone. Finally, my son, who is in his early twenties, took the contract, read it, and worked out the spreadsheet I mentioned. “They’re crooks. They’ve been screwing you over for years.” He said. Bitter? Yes, I guess I am. Government is corrupt; banks are corrupt; churches are corrupt; the military is corrupt. I have still have many things to be thankful for: I am not in Guantanamo Bay—yet, but as people are now arrested for “thought” crimes, it could be any day. And believe me, I’ve had bad thoughts about these bastards. Secondly, I have a stray cat who keeps me company and is worth every cent of the money I spend on cat food. Those people who say you should get rid of your pets if you are poor–well, animals tend to keep people sane and anything we can do to keep our own sanity in this world, or help the sanity of others seems like a good investment. Just think, Hitler was told he was no artist and was not allowed to enter art school. Suppose he had taken his frustrations out on the canvas instead of Poland’s landscape? I wish that haughty professor had admitted him to art school. Think how differently things might have been–why Bush’s grandfather might not have had any Nazi’s to support!!!!
I’ve got a problem with every Tom, Dick and Marney crying about how much they owe for necessities. Call me callous or a Mountain goat… but what part of breeding is necessary? how many people jump into bed with the opposite sex, married or otherwise, thinking about how much their future children will cost after the adventure in pleasure?
fyi - I consider myself more liberal, maybe a bit centrist, who remains pro choice - meaning if I want an abortion I’ll have one, and if I want a gun I’ll go buy one. Both are personal decisions and rights and both are and should remain protected by our Constitution.
Hey Zell, I happen to agree with Mountain Goat. I was once $27,000 in debt, largely due to my own actions after a divorce. Fortunately I was able to pay it all off after selling my house. Took me awhile to be able to buy another one too and I will not make that same mistake again. Lesson learned - Credit companies are more than happy to indulge a man in a post divorce traumatic spending binge.
What did Marnie take in school for $42,000? What schooling that cost so much provided so little for her to be able to A) pay back her student loans and B) not be able to get a decent job? Did she go to school for underwater basket weaving? I doubt that. There is a bigger story here. what kind of education system do we have that serves corporate research to the tune of billions, takes tens of thousands of dollars from individual students each year, yet cannot provide them with enough education to provide for gainful employment for adulthood? I think this is the real issue not being addressed here today.
Yes, Credit Card companies will screw the living daylights out of you if you make one misstep on your account. They tell you that BEFORE you sign the dotted line. Yes, even banks will offer homeowners who suffer loss due to hurricanes, tornadoes or earthquakes, the same deferrment that accrues interest for a year or 2 before a balloon payment of the interest is due. B of A forced thousands of Californians into bankruptcy after the 1989 earthquake and again in Florida after hurricane Andrew. My own parents had this happen to them, thank you B of Anus!! Yes it is usury and should be illegal but then these financial institutions are in business to make money not provide humanitarian assistance to people.
Even if you want to say that having kids are necessary - which they are not - but let’s say for the sake of argument they are - I know how you liberals like to think State sponsored breeding programs are some kind of right. They are not, but let’s not lie to each other - children are nothing more than State sponsored breeding in America. When a child gets you more tax breaks, more welfare money, increased stipends from State Foster “care” programs, all to grow up and cost more money to educate or join the military and become cannon fodder for the State, you tell me that’s not State sponsored breeding and I’ll call you what you are… a liar.
So here we are waiting yet again for some big liberal pie in the sky answer from who, government? All for a problem that is self inflicted!! No one made me go into $27,000 of debt. I did. I spent my money on things I did not need and just plain old diod not give a shit. I paid for it all too.
Granted I think there is an exception when medical situations occur. Here I have to say that there should be no problems for consumers when they are ill or otherwise impaired - with some exceptions of course.
Americans truly need to wake up and be responsible for their actions. Do liberals think we should leave Iraq and then think it will no longer be part of our lives? I think not. Most of what I read about on withdrawing from Iraq includes some kind of monetary compensation for the damage our ILLEGAL military invasion has done.
Really though, maybe Marney should consider getting rid of some of her cats. Or are they necessary too? While there are many unethical behaviors that MNC’s engage in on a daily basis, (most are not illegal only because they can buy new laws to make these actions legal) we have to get real and begin to look at how we live. Many things we view as necessities in the US are nothing of the sort.
Dishwashers, garbage disposals, even dryers and washing machines are not necesarry and may not even really help much. They may give the illusion of saving time but do they? If we had to breath the coal or oil exhaust from the power plants that are created when we operate these items we may think twice about their necessity.
I am truly growing tired of hearing all the whining about problems that can be avoided or waiting for the government to come and save the day. Where the hell did the rugged indiviualistic American who can do for him or herself go? Anyone seen one of them lately? Trust me when I tell you that you will NEVER find one in the White House, Senate or House, and they will be even less likely to be found holding a judges bench in any US court, including our present Kangaroo court system.
HOLYMOLY: What a saga! My marriage broke up leaving me essentially with a baby on each arm and I figured out I could live as a freelance writer and do without status objects so as to be HOME with my children. Once the girls were in school, I got used to the freedom of my lifestyle, and kept a good diet and exercised as we never had any medical insurance. I bought clothes at thrift shops, cut my own hair, drove a very old Toyota with good gas mileage and somehow whatever we REALLY needed came to us. When I got a great job in l990 I began to amass credit cards and for a time, just made minimal payments. At times extra $ came in and I’d ace out a card. I have 3 now and plan to pay off one of them soon. It’s so liberating to have a low mortgage and minimal debt but it’s been done by living simply… I’ve been often able to trade freelance writing for “tickets to ride,” and when I travel, I stay with friends. Your story includes the one DARK card, a medical issue of serious proportions. If I was ever diagnosed with cancer, I would first cut caffeine and ALL sugar (I still eat ice cream) from my diet… NATURE is a powerful healer. Today we are infested with so many covert and overt chemicals as to deplete our nutrition and often impede those cellular processes that WOULD heal us if we got proper rest, nutrition and a time to spiritually and mentally “detox.” The American rat-race lifestyle is not only antithetical to nature, but also to the natural healthy aspects that make us (or should make us) human beings. I have written lengthy features on CD explaining the degree to which everything has been co-opted by a man-made view that acts as if superior to nature. Nature is the marriage of archetypal yin and yang forces, whereas the man-made makes a claim to all that is erroneous and ultimately turns against life itself. WE see this in the insanely insidious investment in weapons, rather than societal aspects that truly support life. Today on Cspan a very intelligent and erudite caller mentioned for all our military hardware and many branches of armed forces, what good to all these investments do on 911? Indeed. It is important to heal ourselves, learn self-empowerment, turn off media and become simple. What is more fulfilling then sacred time spent with loved ones? Indians did it around a fire. My kids think I have gotten very conservative in that I am very conscious of what I eat, what I do, what I read etc… but to me it’s more the Bonnie Rait line, “Life gets mighty precious when there’s less of it to waste.” It’s a a great thing that in this forum we bring the sum of our experience as many of us are finding ways to let go of the system, and become THE change that might heal this world. For those of us who love life and have loved ones, especially children or grand children, we owe to the legacy of mankind that which will maintain its continuum. In the interest of that which can sustain human beings (and nature’s beings), I write and teach and try to touch minds with alternatives to those poisons generally infusing them from MSM.
“Republicans will never understand this.”
They understod exactly what they were doing. I wrote a couple of the congressmen in my area and all responded with the “personal responsibility of how people buy $300,000 dollar homes in Florida and write it off. Both were form letters so I know they understood.
The credit card companies do raise the interest rates and add charges when people are entrenched. They want people to be lifelong debtors.
This country treats us like we are only here to buy and become debtors. Yet not one has come up with a plan to remedy the debt or help people become more educated in the global world.
The government is unconcerned illegals are coming over and we pay for them with our taxes. They do not want to spoil their international relations. To **** with all of us. Weren’t they elected to serve us instead of the businesses overseas? So much for me setting a high expectation.
People can go online and download bankrupcy and other debt remedies-I think student loans can be negotiated down by attornies too. It cost about $35.00 for forms.
Another law that should be taken off is the fact businesses can look at your credit. People have different situations. For instance if a spouse or family member pays your bills would that make you a different worker?
Medical bills are not on everyones credit. Check your state and your reporting bureaus.
Do not use debt repair services who put you in debt deeper.
States and counties also have a bureau that will arrange payments with debtors and even lower the interest rates. This is free.
Shikantaza you have learned well from our corporate masters. Show no sympathy. Do not question the morality of students being laden with debt upon graduation. I understand Marney’s plight. I have two degrees (BS and MBA) from a top university in the West. After taking time off to raise our children I now find it difficult to regain employment. Even with my very expensive two degrees. I still owe on my student loans (with compounding interest). Marney, God bless your persistence to create a life for you and your family. The deck is stacked against working folks for now. We are treated like serfs. Our human right of health coverage is only affordable through our employers. That’s not economic justice.
“Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal — that there is no human relation between master and slave.”: Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy - (1828-1910) Russian writer
There are a lot of people out there who want true and a free society.Those were the very ideals Hutch Min expressed when he took power.The powers that be did not want Vietnam to be a true democracy, the rest is history.That’s what the leaders of Venezuela are trying to create power from the bottom up wards
You cannot create any fair society with out addressing the question of MONEY SUPPLY.As long as we allow Private Banks to create money out of NOTHING as a exponential compound interest bearing DEBT we will all remain enslaved from cradle to the grave.
Money will go into manufacture of Arms which will be used against the people to suppress them, press will be used to peddle false hood, elected representatives will be bought off from creating a true democracy.
Once the Money Supply is in the hands of the people, where the elected representatives are the sole distributors of the funds for productive capacity that will benefit every one, then you may be on a far better world
Illusion, yes the American people are living in an illusion as they are enslaved from cradle to the grave as the rest of the world.The Out Standing Market Credit Debt of that country in the last count stood at $76.63Trillion dollars, the Government will never be able to service the loan let alone repay the capital. Every day this amount is reflected in the books it accrues exponential compound interest. The US lives on a daily overdraft of Billions from the People’s Bank of China (a turn up for the books), and others.
Every thing and every body in the US is owned by private banks, and you pay interest on every thing on money created out of NOTHING
But in the first world fed on rubbish both in mind and body, just to be healthy to be Cannon fodders to fight some one Else’s war. In the Third World Eight million children die every year this has gone on for decades the holocaust is alive and well.
U$ 100 million are repatriated every day to the Western Banks as interest payments, so that more money can be created as debt. Every THREE SECONDS a child dies in order to pay this amount.
As long as Banks create money out of NOTHING as a compound interest bearing DEBT to finance wars where the profit margins are better than anything on offer you are in a vicious cycle of violence.
The arms industry is the most subsidised industry in any country, especially in the US..
”If you want to be a slave and pay the cost of your own slavery, let the banks create the money’
”Let me control and issue a nations’ currency, I care not who writes its laws”
So you can ‘ELECT’ any party of any colour, it wold not matter an iota
Peace is profitless. as a committed pacifist, I cannot understand ordinary people allowing this to go on. You can take non violent action.
As the Late Lord Hailsm, the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales pointed out, that we live in a tripartite totalitarian dictatorship; Press, Elected and Financial.
Interest is NOT necessary or inevitable, this insidious and invidious imposition on humankind should be abolished immediately and can be abolished
We are told we are all free and live in a democracy. People can be fooled all the time.
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” - George W. Bush
The laws of this country no longer protect consumers or employees, but corporations only. Corporations are not your friend, and they never were. The system is DESIGNED to make people fall through the cracks. Shikantaza & MtnGoat have made the common middle class mistake of believing that their good luck was a direct result of their own merit, and that anyone less lucky deserves their fate. This is what Republicaneocons want us to believe, so that we will allow them to continue to rape and pillage while we squabble with one another. Meanwhile, Rome (and the rest of the planet) are burning, burning, burning…
1) After I read this article, I looked at two credit card bills, to see what the interest rate on purchases was. You see, I use my credit cards as charge cards; I pay the entire amount off every month, so I never pay interest and it was of no personal concern to me what the rate was. I am fortunate to be able to do this, I realize. I have a pretty reliable income stream that is more than I need right now, and unless the economy really tanks, or inflation here reaches totally outlandish levels, I can anticipate being able to live, albeit relatively modestly, without financial distress.
Now, I checked my credit score, and it is very good; still, the annual interest I WOULD be charged on one card is NOT DISCLOSED on the bill, and on the other it’s over 24%! WHAT!
2) Common wisdom tells some people that others that get into trouble with credit have all brought in upon themselves. This article clearly contradicts that notion. But until more people who are fortunate — like I am, or even, like some friends I have, with more resources — realize this, and get damned angry, who will insist our government begin to act like a government FOR THE PEOPLE?
Seems to me that some people are neglecting to factor in that circumstances differ in a multitude of ways from one individual’s plight to anyone else’s.
What’s the value in judging one person’s situation against another’s - educational opportunities, social acceptance, personal abilities to cope with difficulty, region of the country, support from family, friends, etc. create entirely different situations.
If you loose your job and are young or middle-aged and relatively healthy, your ability to pull yourselves up differs significantly from an older person who has lost his job because of 3 open heart surgeries.
Similar circumstances 10 years ago and today are apples & oranges because, while never “user friendly”, credit card companies and other lender financial institutions now clearly understand that they have been given carte blanc to rape and pillage the people of America in whatever creative ways they can think up, and there many fewer social programs to help those in need.
If you’re older than 45, getting a job with benefits is increasingly difficult. Companies don’t want to hire someone who may have to use their health insurance, influencing the company’s skyrocketing health care costs.
I was laid off from a company I’d been employed by for 12 years (new owners) the same week that the divorce ending 28 years of marriage became final. I was 48 years old, haven’t been able to find a job with benefits, am paying a $600.00 a month health insurance premium, with no pharmaceutical or dental coverage on an hourly salary.
I want good health care, and I’m trying to be responsible about not leaving providers with unpaid bills, but no gold stars for that- just credit card bills to pay for drugs from companies that have a free hand in screwing us over in a different way. (I make “too much” for any low-cost program).
I live modestly, drive an older Saturn, try to keep it in good repair, but, guess what? Due to the design of a goodly number of Saturn engines for 5-6 years, the engine doesn’t get enough oil & needs replacement, often before 75,000 mi.. Rebuilt engines cost $2,400-3,200.00. Saturn takes no responsibility, leaving thousands of owners to fend for themselves, even charging $100.00 for diagnostics to tell you what they already know. A mechanic for the dealership diagnosed my problem over the phone.
If every move you’ve made in your life has been responsible, well planned & thought out, kudos to you, but I tend to learn from experience, and some of those learning experiences have cost money. Does that give money-grubbing corporations the right to decide to raise interest rates on the supposition that I MIGHT default, even though I’ve been careful to make double payments on time? Sell defective products to consumers with no penalties? Charge exorbitant prices for drugs that other countries sell for half the price, or deny access to generics by slight-of-hand tricks to extend patents?
Those who have issues with Marney owning a car- have you ever tried to get and keep a job in most places without a car?
Let’s keep the focus on the cumulative effect of what’s happening in corporate America, & how it’s being facilitated and abetted by the lobbyists & lackeys in Washington and in state governments.
Let’s tally how many millions of plain old ordinary citizens are being stripped of their pensions, savings, hopes, dreams and possibly the future of their social security, many being laid off a few years or months before they’re due full pensions after many years of service.
How about all the students working 3 jobs to get a college education to avoid the need for large loans, only to see tuitions rising steadily when their salaries don’t. What will this country be like if millions of high schoolers can’t afford to go to college, but employers only want educated employees?
Leave the nitpicking and incredulous statements for the politicians & CEOs, and holier-than-thous.
One can follow all the rules, but that only works if the game’s being played on a level field. Let’s get to work to level the field.
shikantaza I would be interested to know how you make a living or how your family made a living. You talk of rugged individualism, yet I would be interested to know just where you got your idea about the rugged American–from Little House on the Prairie? Even so, it would not surprise me that Laura Ingall’s father received land under the Homestead Act or some other form of government assistance. Afterall, the Constitutional framers did see a need to “promote the general welfare” in case you don’t remember what the Constitution SAYS, but then republican SHILLS tend to hate the Constitution, don’t they? Even if the Homestead Act wasn’t at play here, the railroads sure received a shitload of of assistance from the government to lay tracks across the west so that goods and services could reach the Little House–they received a mile of land on either side of the track–So much for Ayn Rand’s objectivist bullshit in Atlas Shurgged–a great novel for entertainment but terrible economics. She used Dagney Taggard and the railroads as a sign of “rugged individualism” ha ha ha–as a Russian immigrant, she fell for the myth just like you,shikantaza. Truth is, everyone has received some helping hand in this country or they would not have survived, yourself included so please don’t be so smug and self-righteous. You ask what Marney’s education is comprised of such that she owes $42,000. Well, this is another gimmick they have going. Stop and think about the jobs available in this country–they act as if there is some sort of legitimate business going on and that they will have need for legitimate employees and will offer a decent wage. Fat chance!! You can, perhaps, be an accountant for Arthur Andersen–wait, they exist under another name now don’t they? Truth is, if you want to make a decent living in this country, be prepared to do some very bad things to other people. Then you should have no problem paying off a student debt. Otherwise, you are just falling for another debt trap.
Usually, shikantaza, people like you think that one day you will be rich and, as part of the rich, you can screw people over. Usually, like I said, I can shut folks up by asking them: where do you get your money or where did your daddy get his money? Follow the money trail, learn the truth. Prove me wrong. Tell me your mother took in laundry, etc. etc. I am just wondering why you hate the future so. People who find children a burden usually have no regard for the future as CHILDREN ARE THE FUTURE. But, wait, Republicans and Republican shills don’t care about the future, do they? They don’t care about kids and the world they will inherit. And they usually spout the”welfare bullshit” of a Limbaugh–kids get you more welfare money. I don’t know what universe you live in, but many states only give a few hundred dollars to welfare mothers and they begrudge them every cent–while they give billions to defense contractors, savings & loan bailouts, and other programs which are nothing BUT WELFARE FOR THE VERY RICH. Yet, you begrudge some poor woman a few measley bucks to feed a kid. Shame on you. All school lunches ought to be free in this country, but we are too busy killing children in Iraq to feed children here at home!!! Children are held captive eight hours a day in school, the least we should be able to do is feed them!!! Whatever you have, shikantaza, whatever education and breaks in life, someone has helped you. You arrived in this world a crying infant–someone has helped you and someone has helped your parents. None of this was “American rugged individualism” no matter how much you like to dream about it.
Response to posting directly above this;
The Vultures and others that make their living feeding from the flesh of the masses care not one IOTA for us and ours. Patriotism is a religeon for the masses, not the elite. I realize the US sheeple are, in addition to being arrogant, gullible.
One need only look at the power the ANTI-LABOR Republicans have garnered not only in the South,( where for 10 years after the civil war they RAPED what was once the Confederate States of America), but within the Working folks in the North. the Elite are an INTERNATIONAL class. They giva a DAMN what this nation is heading for. When it caves in, they’ll simply call their INTERNATIONAL circle of friends and “pop” to the family compound away from the chaos they creat. That is unless the sheeple can block their flight this time and remove them and theirs from the gene pool to avoid it recurring again in roughly 5 generations.
A nation of sheep, led by a cartel of whores, controlled by Israel / big business. Welcome,… to the REAL Evil Empire.
HOLYMOLY
Go to your state’s Attorney General. Not all states are the same, but it’s always worth at least a try.
Note: If the first person you talk to is not understanding, ask to speak to someone else.
(I wish I’d been healthy enough to follow this advice myself back when it would have made a difference.)
EVELYNA
Any links? Best search words/phrases/terms? (The internet is wonderful - but only if you figure out the right phrases to search!)
My health was further screwed up while I was in university - using student loans, as I was well enough to work part-time or go to school, but not well enough to do both. (And don’t talk about government aid: it disappers after you’ve gotten your bachelor’s. (Of course that’s only what they told me at the university’s financial aid office. At the time, I was willing to believe the people in that university.)
Strangely, I was held responsible for not getting better, for allowing their own doctor (!) to set me up for unnecessary surgery - and then to neglect to show up, letting a surgical fellow do it unsupervized. (Before you say ‘malpractice, let me tell you: malpractice laws are set up to protect the medical establishment.)
Then, when I had finished my undergrad requirements and entered grad school, I learned that the head of the program was an utter incompetent and that we would have to take at least one course every term with him; my health worsened; my depression hit such an intensity that I couldn’t even do the work, which was of a level that I could have tackled it before I finished high school.
Beware ‘educational’ institutions of the ‘publish or perish’ variety. If the subject in which your professor publishes is not of a high calibre, then (s)he can be an incompetent,(even an imbecile), petty, personally vindictive, etc.; and the university will not care - because they are evaluated on their publishing record, and it’s quantity, not quality that counts: if an article is accepted, it’s a ‘good’ article. (Check out the scores of GRE exam-takers, and think twice about the degrees connected with the lowest group scores, as scores are published sorted by the test-takers’ majors.)
When I called that Attorney General’s office about the malpractice, I talked to a most officious woman who insisted that, ‘the University of Illinois is a reputable institution,’ and also wanted to hold me responsible for allowing it. (Don’t bother to tell me that she contradicted herself; I already know and she didn’t seem to care.) ‘Reputable’ they may be, but reliable and responsible they were not.
As I noted to holymoly, I wish I had been well enough to follow my own advice. I might still own my home - and have more hair, (and less grey hair), too!
Now the lenders are insisting that I pay for this abuse. (They can’t collect it right now, as I have no job, and so no wages that they can garner - but I hope to have soon, so I need to fight this now. Well, as soon as I move from this nerve-wracking, noisy apartment building, and there, as one poster already noted, being in debt makes for added difficulties.
To the animal-haters: Strange to say, but I love my pair of budgies, and there have been many days when, had I not felt responsible for their welfare, I would have hunted down a gun - (easy to do in Chicago, I’m told) - and shot myself. (On the downside: they have also become nervous wrecks, living in this noise-box that the landlord assured me was ‘very quiet.’ The male’s happy chattering and warbling has lessened considerably.)
Look chaps, you all a bloody selfish arse holes.You are not alone in this planet, you live in a interdependent world, part of the great human family. The powers that be are able to dived and rule you internally and externally, while they laugh all the way to the bank. Take non violent action against banks. Money is created out of NOTHING by private banks. Ask you self a stupid question, why is the need for interest?
Mount a non violent action for the money to be created by the Government, then it’s interest free and put to productive purposes in the real economy. Your infrastuctures are crumbling, do them up this provide empolyment.. Money to day is speculated in the virtual economy for the benefit of the few.
You American seems happy to be enslaved
“Money is a new form of slavery, and distinguishable from the old simply by the fact that it is impersonal — that there is no human relation between master and slave.”: Leo Nikolaevich Tolstoy - (1828-1910) Russian writer
The prophet Amos cursed the rich for this practice over 2000 years ago. There is nothing the rich won’t do to the poor.
The same people that bitch about LAZY welfare people, social programs etc. are the ones who are heavily invested in these credit card companies, and only get off their lazy ass to log in and see how much money they skimmed from the working poor.
Pay down your cards, cut them up and send a notarized letter stating that you no longer NEED their sevices, send it return receipt requested. Time to put the lazy people back to work and get them off the dole.
“Hey mountain goat, you still eat sh*t? Like the other goats?”
hi joann, eloquent and respectful of those who don’t agree with you, as always.
“Is it really a mastter of “chossing” to buy your child $50 worth of school supplies at Target when all your money just went for food, rent and utilities??”
Yes, and it’s a matter of choosing how to run your life so your income and choices result in a little better outcome than not having that fifty bucks left over. What are you, some powerless victim who has no responsibility for your life? Does someone else owe you a living and the money they earn to pick up the slack for you? Who exactly should be carrying you?
“Are you supposed to send him to school empty handed—or better yet, swipe the necessary items—-if you refuse to borrow? As a single adult there were plenty of weeks I did without, or got by on one meal a day. But you can’t ask kids to make those kinds of sacrifices.”
I see. Now stealing is ‘better yet’. Are you six still? Did someone else force you to have kids, and is preventing you from earning enough? Is it all against you and it’s got nothing to do with you? Seeing you push stealing as a better alternative points up exactly the kind of self centered refusal to accept responsibility seen in so many of these posts.
It’s not your fault, someone else should be made to accomodate you and make up the gap in paying (and working) for your choices, and stealing is a better option. Brilliant ethics.
“So I guess your next comment will be that only those with six-figure incomes should have the right to reproduce. Right?”
Wrong. Only those who are all grown up and accept responsibility for their choices and actions, instead of playing victim and coming to the conclusion that stealing is a better option, should reproduce. You must be quite a mom, here you are posting in public that stealing is a better option.
“Ask you self a stupid question, why is the need for interest?”
Simple. Money lent is no longer invested and will not increase in value over time. To even break even, given the time value of money, even if no profit is desired, interest must be paid or else the value of the money loaned will total less when it is repaid than if it was left invested in capital.
When someone hates money instead of those who abuse it, it’s a sign of someone you cannot trust…and who will attempt to take it from you while telling you how evil it is. It’s so evil that THEY WANT IT, for their own superior reasons of course. They’re so pure they’ll threaten you until you give it to them..just like any other crook.
Money is merely a placeholder for value. It’s neither good nor bad. It’s not a driver, that is the human mind. Money is no more evil or a trick than a screwdriver or a pencil.
No mtngoat interest is not needed. You have no Idea of what you are talking about. Interest used to be called usury. It is a way of making money by producing nothing.
It is larceny pure and simple. If I need a lecture about responsibility i’ll get it from someone that does not condone larceny. If everyone took your advice and did not borrow money our economy would collapse. It will collapse anyway but it will take a little longer. The US is currently 45 trillion dollars in debt. If people stopped borrowing what do you think would happen to liquidity. It would lock up as solidly as those two nuerons in your head.
Money is not a place holder for value. It is a medium to pay debt. Our money is backed by nothing. Interest on debt is greater than the principle borrowed. We use fiat money, based on a fractional reserve system. This kind of money is indeed evil. It enslaves people. Why is our money controlled by a private bank? Why is our government paying private banks interest on its own money? Why is interest necessary?
Hey, anybody mention the new bankruptcy law waiting for you at the end of the credit care interest road? Put you in debtor prison when you fail to pay? [Remember what you learned in grade school? How our ancestors fled the old world to escape debtors prison and religious oppression?] You starting to feel the Bush plantation economy yet? Credit cards are the company store? The rest is no pension, no health care, no education and when you can’t fulfill your role as a drone/worker bee for any reason…….R.I.P!
”MtnGoat August 19th, 2007 11:53 pm
“Ask you self a stupid question, why is the need for interest?”
Simple. Money lent is no longer invested and will not increase in value over time. To even break even, given the time value of money, even if no profit is desired, interest must be paid or else the value of the money loaned will total less when it is repaid than if it was left invested in capital.
A partially good answer.from yeranalyst Let me answer it this way
1/ Obviously mtngoat does not know that Japan had negative interest rate, ye negative, yet it suffered stagflation. Because money was not directed to productive capacity. So you see mtngoat NO INTEREST IS NECESSARY.QED
yeranalyst August 20th, 2007 3:25 am
”No mtngoat interest is not needed. You have no Idea of what you are talking about. Interest used to be called usury. It is a way of making money by producing nothing.
It is larceny pure and simple. If I need a lecture about responsibility i’ll get it from someone that does not condone larceny. If everyone took your advice and did not borrow money our economy would collapse”.
Borrowing money is fine, but at 0% interest, as long as the money is put into productive capacity, other wise what happened in Japan will happen.
I know of families in the United Kingdom paying 2000% REPEAT 2000% decent law abiding families just to keep their kids clothed and fed
Again none of you have no perception as to what happens in other parts of the world. EVERY THREE SECONDS a child dies. As far as you are concerned it’s the lesser breed
Let me remind you during the Nazis reign of terror ”I did not speak out when they came for the blacks, because I was not black, (Hitler’s first victims were blacks in their thousands as there were no millions of blacks, and among them were 100 of black jews. No body ever mentions this. obliterated from history)
So on and so on and finally when they came for ME there wasn’t any one left to cry for me” Jesuits Priest
We are citizens of the world and members of the human race every thing else is accidental and incidental.
3/ this is what happening down under in NEW ZEALAND
Finance: Loan Shark Report On The Rampage - Acting Minister for
Social Development and Employment Steve Maharey today welcomed
a new report on ‘fringe’ lenders in South Auckland, saying it
will help raise public awareness about the dangers of borrowing
from high-interest credit providers…. The report found that
the most common reason for borrowing was to meet the needs of
everyday household expenses. More >> [1] ALSO:Ministry Of Consumer
Affairs - Pacific Consumers’ Experience in Credit Markets [2]
Family First - Govt Inquiry Into Loan Sharks Welcomed [3] Global
Peace And Justice Auckland - Loan sharks report due for release
tomorrow [4] Salvation Army - Protect Vulnerable from Casino
Loan Sharks [5] Commerce Commission - Auckland Credit Providers
Given Warning [6]
[1] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0708/S00309.htm
[2] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0708/S00246.htm
[3] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0708/S00245.htm
[4] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0708/S00211.htm
[5] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0708/S00204.htm
[6] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0708/S00187.htm
Monetary Policy: English Seeks To Decipher Cullen’s Statements
- Investors and households facing volatile markets deserve an
explanation from Finance Minister Michael Cullen about his statements
on monetary policy, says National Party Finance spokesman Bill
English. More >> [1]
[1] - http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0708/S00325.htm