Subscribe to Common Dreams News Updates
Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Toxins Take a Toll on Troops
Guard members' claims against KBR raise questions about war zone contractors.
Larry Roberta's every breath is a painful reminder of his time in Iraq. He can't walk a block without gasping for air. His chest hurts, his migraines sometimes persist for days and he needs pills to help him sleep.
Larry Roberta of Aumsville sinks in exhaustion after testifying before the House Rules Committee on Wednesday in Salem about his exposure to hexavalent chromium in Iraq in 2003. The former Oregon Army National Guard soldier, who rarely leaves his home due to health problems linked to the exposure, appeared at the hearing "to help other veterans." (Fredrick Joe/The Oregonian ) James Gentry came home with rashes, ear troubles and a shortness of breath. Later, he developed lung cancer.
David Moore's postwar life turned into a harrowing medical mystery: nosebleeds and labored breathing that made it impossible to work, much less speak. His search for answers ended last year when he died of lung disease at age 42.
What these three men — one sick, one dying, one dead — had in common is they were National Guard soldiers on the same stretch of wind-swept desert in Iraq during the early months of the war in 2003. They and hundreds of other Guard members from Indiana, Oregon and West Virginia were protecting workers hired by a subsidiary of the giant contractor, KBR Inc., to rebuild an Iraqi water treatment plant.
The area, as it turned out, was contaminated with hexavalent chromium, a potent, sometimes deadly chemical linked to cancer and other devastating diseases. No one disputes that, but that's where the agreement ends. Among the issues now rippling from the courthouse to Capitol Hill are whether the chemical made people sick, when KBR knew it was there and how the company responded.
The case has raised broader questions about private contractors and health risks in war zones, says Sen. Evan Bayh, D-Ind., who plans hearings on the matter: "How should we treat exposure to potentially hazardous chemicals as a threat to our soldiers? How seriously should that threat be taken? What is the role of private contractors? What about the potential conflict between their profit motives and taking all steps necessary to protect our soldiers?"
Dozens of National Guard veterans have sued KBR and two subsidiaries, accusing them of minimizing and concealing the chemical's dangers, then downplaying nosebleeds and breathing problems as nothing more than sand allergies or a reaction to desert air.
KBR denies wrongdoing. In a statement, the company said it found the chemical at the Qarmat Ali plant, restricted access, cleaned it up and "did not knowingly harm troops."
This isn't the first claim that toxins have harmed soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan; there have been allegations involving lead, depleted uranium and sarin gas.
It also isn't the first challenge to KBR, whose billions of dollars of war-related contracts have been the subject of congressional scrutiny and legal claims. Suits recently filed in several states against KBR and Halliburton Co. — KBR's parent company until 2007 — assert open-air pits used to burn refuse in Iraq and Afghanistan caused illnesses and death. KBR says it's reviewing the charges. Halliburton maintains it was improperly named and expects to be dismissed from the case.
This case stems from the chaotic start of the war in 2003 when a KBR subsidiary was hired to restart the treatment plant, which had been looted and virtually stripped bare. The Iraqis had used hexavalent chromium to prevent pipe corrosion at the plant, which produced industrial water used in oil production. It's the same chemical linked to poisonings in California in a case made famous in the movie "Erin Brockovich."
Hexavalent chromium — a toxic component of sodium dichromate — can cause severe liver and kidney damage. It is also "one of the most potent carcinogens known to man," said Max Costa, chairman of New York University's Department of Environmental Medicine. Costa provided a deposition for 10 civilian workers who settled an arbitration case over the poison at the water plant.
KBR says studies show only that industrial workers exposed to the chemical for more than two years have an increased risk of cancer — and in this case, soldiers were at the plant just days or months. The company also notes air-quality studies concluded the Indiana Guard soldiers were not exposed to high levels of hexavalent chromium.
Costa says those tests were done when the wind was not blowing. Both soldiers and former workers say there were days when strong gusts kicked up ripped-open bags of the chemical, creating a yellow-orange haze.
"I was spitting blood, and I was not the only one doing that," recalls Danny Langford, who worked for the KBR subsidiary.
Larry Roberta, a 44-year-old former Oregon National Guard member, remembers 137-degree heat and dust everywhere. He sat on a bag of the chemical, unaware it was dangerous. "This orange crud blew up in your face, your eyes and on our food," he says.
Roberta says he immediately felt sick to his stomach. He also reported coughing spells and agonizing chest pains that "went all the way through my back. ... Every day I went there, I had something weird going on."
Russell Kimberling, a former Indiana National Guard captain, had severe sinus troubles that forced his medical evacuation to Germany. After returning, he became alarmed one August day in 2003 while escorting some officials to the plant in the southern Iraqi city of Basra.
"I jumped out of the truck and I turned around and they (KBR staff) had full chemical gear on," he says. "I looked at some of my soldiers and said, 'This can't be very good.' ''
Ed Blacke, hired as plant health, safety and environmental coordinator, says he became worried after workers started having breathing problems and a former colleague sent him an internal KBR memo outlining the chemical's dangers. Blacke says he complained, was labeled a troublemaker and resigned under pressure.
Kimberling is among nearly 50 current or former Guard members — most from Indiana, a smaller number from Oregon and West Virginia — who've sued.
Mike Doyle, a Houston lawyer representing the soldiers and civilians, maintains KBR knew as early as May 2003 the chemical was there, but didn't close the site until that September. The lawsuit cites minutes of an August 2003 KBR meeting that mentions "serious health problems at the water treatment plant" and notes "almost 60 percent of the people now exhibit the symptoms."
In a recent Associated Press interview, KBR chairman William Utt said the company has been unfairly targeted for its military work.
As for the water plant, KBR says once it learned of the chemical, it took precautions to protect workers, notified the Army Corps of Engineers and led the cleanup. It says the Corps had previously deemed the area safe.
KBR also points to Army tests of Indiana Guard soldiers that showed no medical problems that could be linked to exposure, as well as a military board review that found it unlikely anyone would suffer long-term medical consequences.
But Bayh and Doyle say those tests were done too late to be valid and note that soil tests were taken after the contaminated area was covered.
The Indiana, West Virginia and Oregon National Guards have sent hundreds of letters to soldiers notifying them of possible contamination and urging them to seek medical attention.
Bayh has introduced a bill calling for a medical registry that would require the Department of Defense to notify all military members of exposure to potential toxins and ensure their medical care. A similar measure that only mandates only notification was approved last month in the U.S. House as an amendment to the defense authorization bill.



47 Comments so far
Show Allodoco
This has been known for years.
Anybody can do a Google search and finds literally tons of evidence on this subject. I might add - even members of CONGRESS could have done so.
As I've said a million times - no accountability. None of the big boys ever go to jail for obvious crimes. Halliburton and KBR have manipulated the contract system in trying to state they are part of the Defense system, therefore they cannot be sued, but when the Defense system tries to control them (RARELY)they state they are a private business - thus ensuring that no one has control over their actions - including the courts.
This is one of the most glaring examples of the malfeasance of the American system of capitalism. It has become a cancer. It owns the governmental system, and probably the court system - especially with the present make-up of the Supreme Court.
It is time to put a few folks on trial for negligent homicide, send them to prison for about 50 years. This is the only way this insanity will stop.
It is way past time for a change folks.
You speak well and right.
This article is old news. What's happening with the Military Inc. is just one example among many of the things that are wrong in that country. The mess the US is in is proving without a shred of a doubt that its government and their line of thought are flawed beyond measure.
But how can the private sector be held accountable and to whom, when the government itself is privatized? How can a system so inefficient and corrupt be changed when the majority of the population is too dumb to see the obvious or too scarred to do anything? Who can be trusted to bring that much needed change when all those with the courage to stand up and speak are marginalized and called extremists or lunatics? What hope do we have?
The private sector can and should be held responsible, as should everyone of us. We talk of 'the government' as though it were an entity unto itself. It's not. It is us. And 'us' sit by and allow what happens to happen. Ex: There is much complaining about Sam's/Walmart and its practices and what it does/doesn't do to its employees. Yet it does bigger and bigger business every year. The users of this business claim they cannot afford to shop elsewhere. Perhaps if we did with fewer 'things' and less of them, we could afford to shop elsewhere? If you are opposed to something, you cannot continue to support it and then expect you will vanquish this 'enemy of the poor worker'. So...if you are dissatisfied with the health care system, for instance, you must make sure you vote for and support only those who agree with what you deem a better system. You must protest against all who would make a profit of your need for medical care. One person does count. One will bring a second, and so on. That much needed change comes about from hours on the phone, at meetings,talking to people, presenting facts, offering the alternatives. Here, in my community, we finally got the optical scanned paper ballot on the ballot and managed a successful vote for it. We are still fighting the state courts, but we will win because we will continue to fight. We started with a handful of people, wound up with hundreds collecting petitions, marching, and watched this effort spread across the state.We can do it. Yes, we can.
What we have now is not American Capitalism, its been subverted by the very folks you so rightfully chastize.
I'm sorry they removed my answer to you yesterday. It was 14 months in combat by the way.
odoco
Henry8 - thanks for your current response.
Did you understand my point about the flag, its image/ideal, now being totally corrupted by the current governmental system now in power? When the government itself uses the flag as a cover for corporate / religious / political domination of the world it is no longer a flage I care anything about. Does that make sense to you?
In peace
What should we expect from a government born out of the violent ethnic cleansing of the native people.
The Intellectual Rationalization of Imperialism
The mind set of the Europeans that came to the North American Continent was that the white Christians were “The New Israel” and the North American Continent was “The New Canaan” and the Lord made “America” the inheritance of the Invaders, as he as God’s chosen people.
This was commonly understood to be the Biblical Authority and governing blueprint for the conquest of “the New World”.
The Five Rules of God for His Chosen People:
1.) You are my adopted and favorite child
2.) I will make the land of these other people your inheritance from me
3.) They deserve to be driven out and destroyed, disinherited like a prodigal son
4.) You may make no deals with them.
5.) If you DON’T destroy them in my Name, I will let them trouble you.
The Covenant of God with Israel
Judg. 2:1 And an angel of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you. (1.)
Judg. 2:2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land (4.); ye shall throw down their altars (3) : but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
Judg. 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.(5)
Judg. 2:4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.
Judg. 2:5 And they called the name of that place Bochim: and they sacrificed there unto the LORD.
Judg. 2:6 And when Joshua had let the people go, the children of Israel went every man unto his inheritance to possess the land. (2.)
Leo Rivers
Gnosticism becomes despotism when it goes beyond the skin.
Thank you, sir. This is how I usually understand things; with a short, concise, documentary style explanation.
It wasn't until I saw an hour long explanation of "the exodus" on the history channel that I understood what that tale was trying to say. And all I could think was, "What a self-serving bunch of crap this is."
"What should we expect from a government born out of the violent ethnic cleansing of the native people."
Well if we could get this Frankenstein Government back into the lab, maybe we could change it's brain? Risky, I know. It's either that or an angry mob is going to have to show up with torches in D.C.
Native peoples always get the shaft. Everywhere. Remember Neanderthal? He was having a nice life until deadly packs of Homo Sapiens showed up in great numbers and started thinking of how to steal his land.
Historically speaking, this is not a uniquely American trait. It's in the genes.
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
It's certainly true that theft is in no way uniquely American. I sometimes think, however, that Americans have a unique gift for accompanying self-congratulatory hypocrisy that can be almost as annoying as the theft itself.
Don't volunteer to be cannon fodder for the businessocracy in the first place.
right - if you can't do the time . . .
KBR has proven time and time again that it cares only for profit, that sacrificing human lives is standard KBR policy. And so far the government has protected KBR at every turn. Why should anyone think KBR will now be held accountable for it's vampirism?
In a recent Associated Press interview, KBR chairman William Utt said the company has been unfairly targeted for its military work.
or
In a recent Associated Press interview, National Guardsmen said they had been unfairly targeted for their military work.
----
Deadly Denial - Rocky Mountain News
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/
special-reports/deadly-denial/
You have to prove that's what caused it before you can get help!!!!!!
I would like to know from any one out there who is really familiar w/the constitution if: 1- there are grounds to impeach Cheney (and Bush); 2- what it would take for citizens to force, if necessary, an impeachment trial. It surely looks to me as if there are more than two of the prior administration who are culpable enough for trial on criminal charges.
War Crimes!
They are ignoring the law, and at present control the press, which controls the people in this country.
They don't dare go to some countries where they would be arrested as war criminals.
Impeachment is specifically for removal from office. Dick Cheney is out of office.
If Dick Cheney violated any laws or treaties ratified by Congress (and bills and treaties ratified by Congress are equally binding on any American judge, to directly quote the U.S. Constitution), then the Justice Department should file a criminal case with an American judge. For that matter, a Spanish judge is also able to issue an arrest warrant for international crimes under our ratified treaties.
Congress could refer a number of criminal complaints, such as Cheney's maintaining a private army within the CIA without telling Congress, to the Justice Department. Contempt of Congress for failing to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, after swearing before Congress to do so, is a criminal offense.
A special prosecutor could always go after the underlings first, and see if any of them turn state's evidence under the pressure of doing hard time.
There are always class-action suits from citizen groups for illegal activities.
Can they also make Cheney pay back all the money he made off the war?
And while we're at it, can we make it illegal to trade stock in companies that have contracts to provide services during war? To continue this practice means more people have a financial interest in seeing that war never stops; the companies' executives and shareholders want to increase their wealth- they don't care if people are maimed and killed as a result.
Same with health care; let's eliminate public trading of any stock related to health care. Health insurance companies (which I'd like to see go away completely) are most loyal to their shareholders, not their clients-- rescinding policies, denying and delaying services resulting in the prolonged suffering and, often, unnecessary deaths, of individuals who had been paying large sums of money thinking they would be covered in their time of need.
KBR has just joined the rather dubious ranks of contractors who raked in the bucks from government contracts while delivering truly shoddy goods, which is an all too constant theme of American history. KBR, meet the suppliers of embalmed beef from the Spanish-American War.
You know, the real Erin Brocovitch is probably still in the class action suit business. She's good, and chromium is her specialty area. Somebody please google her and send her this story. See if she wants to make another 2 million dollars.
Blue Dog Bayh is not the man for this job.
odoco
Bayh is a bought and paid for Blue Dog who will run a sham investigation to pacify his state constituency, claim his hands are tied by the legal system, will contort the politics of the situation in order for him to appear a valiant but failed hero.
And the farce goes on, and on, and on, and on, . . . . . .
It is time for these FOB (friends of Bush) corporations to be held accountable. God know this is only one corporate rip off of our troops and our Money.
Oops, I Musbe Dreamin if I think that anything will ever happen to the well heeled elites of the world.
There but for the WR Grace of god goes Union Carbide?
KBR has been its own long running scandal throughout the Iraq "war" which is of course its own scandal. Both connected to cheney. but even without that connection does anybody remember a u.s. corporation ever really and truly suffering for their crimes? And they all commit them, more or less, right? Story today about Bhopal. In that case the long arm of u.s. corporate power reached into the Indian government in order to screw the people of Bhopal. Is any one if our oil companies innocent of any wrongdoing? no. Will any even be prosecuted? not likely. This is life in a plutocracy. The country is run by corporations, and they cannot be touched.
Or think about agent orange, and how long the war department and the V.A. stiffed the Vietnam vets.
it is indeed a very sad story, and worse than that, infuriating.
Yea,
Bush is gone,
but Halliburton/Kbr are still cashing in..
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=15382
where is the oversight??
I notice nobody has mentioned the story that was carried here I think about a year ago about having to redo KBR's electrical work due to troops getting electrocuted.
Gotta cut a corner, gotta make a buck!
Our poor troops! If they get sick, how will they continue to voluntarily participate in our genocidal wars of aggression? They didn't sign up to be poisoned. They signed up to kill Middle Easterners, pollute their drinking water, and poison whole countries with DU. How dare KBR treat them like ordinary Afghans or Iraqis?
Thank you for acknowledging some of the other victims. It sometimes seems that American sympathies, or at least their published expressions, are reserved exclusively for the consequences suffered by the invaders.
As for KBR and other USA Incorporated affiliates, perhaps Americans, including the volunteer cannon fodder, will someday wake up to the fact that they make no such sympathetic distinctions based on nationalities. But I'm not holding my breath awaiting the enlightenment. In the meantime "support the troops" of your choice.
Eventually the frogs will sense that they are boiling?
With the RATS in the supreme court (Roberts, Alito, Thomas, Scalia), KBR has nothing to worry about.
And congress wouldn't enforce a law if their lives depended on it. It's all theater.
"Eventually the frogs will sense that they are boiling?"
Good one.
But I don't think so. They're turning up the heat way too slow. Unemployment, followed by Forclosure, followed by Pension gone, followed by Heath Care exclusions, followed by poison GMO food effects, followed by No Rights, followed by 1984.....
Something sure smells good!
Ribbit
I believe those rabid nationalist are arming themselves because they are fed up( I do not condone violence).
The right and left must unite to overthrow the corporate dictatoship.
I sympathise with the troops, including National Guard, and Iraqis, Afghans, and so on, who suffer due to the toxic pollution caused by the USA's wars, but sort of doubt that the U.S. presidential administration really cares. If it does, then it'll do what's needed for all of these victims, and will also make an equally top priority for the first responders of 9-11, and civilians who also suffer after having returned to Manhattan after the Bush administration had the EPA issue a notice saying the air was non-hazardous.
"9/11 Forgotten Heros" (28:31), Sierra Club Chronicles and Brave New Films, June 7 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWJsn_ea6_k
I viewed that video a few days ago, but am not sure if it says what the total number of victims of the toxic air at and near Ground Zero are. And I don't mean only the people who died, but also those who are very ill and dying, for some are ill, but apparently not yet diagnosed as dying, while others are.
This incredible, unbelievable injustice only because of the extremely toxic air at Ground Zero that we know was caused by the demolished WTC Towers, but while the Bush administration blatantly, flagrantly, and literally ordered the head of the EPA to change her notice from one of warning about the air being unsafe, to "heh, the air is safe, you have nothing to worry about, not even needing to wear paper masks, the air is so clean. Trust us. You can trust your government, can't you?!" (slightly paraphrased, of course).
If this above documentary doesn't give the total number of these victims, including civilians, instead of only first response workers, then I've read that the number, when taking all hospitals where these victims have sought treatment or help, is as high as 30,000 to 40,000. That, otoh, was what I read a few years ago, and the article explained that it's not easy to know the full total, but the victims weren't all going to the same hospital or same few hospitals.
The above documentary is focused on four first responders and what we learn from them is important, but they're only four, so I'll add the following video for some additional first responders who speak about the ill health due to the WTC dust, and the Bush administration ordering the EPA to tell the public that the air was non-hazardous. Never forget the latter "bit"!
"Respond - 9/11 First Responders Need Your Help" (7:05), Sep 5, 2008
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XojE52Q38Bo
What a [hell] of an evil way to run a (f*cking) government, that is, to "govern"! There's no (f*cking) way to really call this (f*...) beast a government; the (f*...) bureaucratic, body politic part of it, that is. Well, we may as well just say government, since The People are supposed to be their government and they're also SILENT. So, what a hellishly of a evil government!
The Canadian, British, ... and so on, governments aren't much better. They aren't morally ethical. But, two wrongs don't make a right, either; and nothing like what happened at Ground Zero in NYC occurred elsewhere, neither.
The "Shock and Awe" the presidential "leaders" had in mind and evidently still have in mind, of delivering; well, they're still doing it.
In a country with a good universal health care system, these types of problems wouldn't occur; there'd be no hold-up of this likeness.
P.S. Like happened with these soldiers who were serving as guards for some area of KBR in Iraq have said, although I'm not sure if this article, of this CD page, says this, but one last week did and what it is is that KBR pretended there was nothing to worry about for health, but when KBR people went there they had protective suits or masks on. Well, the same thing happened to the first responders at Ground Zero. While they and civilians were told through the public notice from the EPA, of non-hazardousness, officials who went to Ground Zero all wore the kind of protective masks required.
Do you know what that clearly is? It clearly is deliberate knowledge of hazardous air while pretending, which of course is deliberate, to everyone else that the air's safe. That [is] homicidinal conduct! It's not homicide due to negligence. It [is] deliberate!
While looking for an additional video to provide regarding the health crisis for the first responders on 9-11 I came across the following announcement of an upcoming documentary that possibly has been already released.
"9/11 First Responder Documentary Update
John Citara and Other Forgotten Heroes To Be Featured In New Film"
by Leslie C. Halpern, Mar 20, 2009
(url obviously broken over two lines)
http://documentaryfilms.suite101.com/article.cfm/
911_first_responder_documentary_update
Prime comments here.
Makes it unnecessary to throw in my two cents about this karmic revelation.
Yet I would like to share an anology that came to my restless mind just now.
The best way to see it is to compare the government with a crude, aggressive and violent Pimp.
The corporations are the worst Whores imaginable (no insult to honorable prostitutes intended), they are constantly trying to fick (German version of the same word) You and they will make You sick if You don't protect Your Self.
Like in real life, the customer will always come back for more. Hence the human drama.
In regards to the impeachment question, there is something tasty boiling up.
Obviously it is possible to come up with a petition to demand impeachment.
Of course the worst war criminals and Genocidlers bush and cheney are no longer in office, but the new kid in the White Block is probably due for the same treat. It is called obstruction of justice and Mr. Obama makes it clear that he has no intend to deliver his former 'leaders', who are now his best buddies, to justice.
Therfore a petition with let's say 25 Million signatures demanding the impeachment of Obama and the appropriate procedures to try the whole criminal meshpoke responsible for the mayhem of the last nine years should help.
The same thing counts for other issues. Large petitions that make one thing clear:
We don't ask for anything. We Demand.
Don't ask what your government can do for You.
Know that it will do whatever it takes to get Your money, to keep You sick and to scare You into submission.
The 'Goesaround' has finally arrived.
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
I like your style---very much.
And well said also.
To most of the Native American tribes who were predominately "matrilineal", the 'circle' and its philosophy date back thousands of years---in much the same manner as "Karma".
Your words above are true and their truth gives them strength; but they most likely will fall --on the most part---on deaf ears---or ears that refuse to listen.
The collapse of 'empires', and 'cultures' and societies is the major content of history, the rest of the content of it is what the 'survivors learn from the mistakes'.
I have come to the conclusion that the USA while being a 'pretty good idea', will be a much very effective 'teacher by example'. That example will be of the 'negative', but as they say in my 'tribe'----'if you know what NOT to do, you've got half of it down already'. The USA shows all of the classic signs as history records it anyway; of an 'Empire on the Verge of Collapse'. That collapse and the events and actions and reactions to the events--will be the examples to learn from. The USA has offered much in the line of positive achievement for humanity, but most of this was done on the individual level, and not the governmental. For most of American Government history the 'will of the people' has reflected the 'will of the people in charge for the benefit of the people in charge'----the 'others' were and are 'left to their own'.
As a 'son' of those who are some of the rarest people on earth, in that we can say we 'survived the Americans'; I have no doubt that we will survive their collapse.
From your words you reveal yourself as one who will survive as well----
Good Luck
You are so soothingly right in Your assessment. Since I was a child I wished to have a 'time machine' to go back in time and protect the protectors of the Earth. The Indian Nation. You are certainly as well right with Your matching up 'Karma' into this equation. When I met Sun Bear way back in my hometown in Germany, I was mesmerized by his understanding of the world and his 'solutions', which were so beautiful in their conveyance.
The solutions are deep inside our Selves. Being truly connected with the Earth will enable the Earth to protect us. The choosen people are not Jewish. The coosen people are indiginous, interdependend and resourceful.
May All Beings Be Blessed.
No Restrictions Or Limitations Shall Apply.
Compared to the genocide, rape and oppression of countless innocent civilians overseas in the last decades, rashes, ear troubles and shortness of breath are insignificant. Contract killers deserve much worse.
I have no sympathy for loathsome low-IQ bums who volunteer to mass-murder and oppress other human beings. I hope they lose their pensions, health care and are foreclosed on.
That's rough. Many of the enlistees go in without much else in the way of prospects, with the loss of our manufacturing and information bases, without money for college, and the recruitment vultures are always there working on them. Many of them are idealistic, without the experience necessary to have any real politics, and they think they're going out to defend our country.
Don't get me wrong. I know what these wars are about and I've been against them since we first invaded Afghanistan, but I don't think hating the veterans helps anything.
"That's rough. Many of the enlistees go in without much else in the way of prospects, with the loss of our manufacturing and information bases, without money for college, and the recruitment vultures are always there working on them. Many of them are idealistic, without the experience necessary to have any real politics, and they think they're going out to defend our country."
You're right, ignorance and bad job prospects justifies participation in genocide.
That isn't what I said.
Bliss Doubt, I'm sorry, am I being "rough" on the occupying army?
"but I don't think hating the veterans helps anything"
Who said I hate veterans?
Veterans are soldiers no longer fighting in a war.
I hate the ACTIONS of the soldiers currently fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not the people themselves.
If we agree that their is no justification for their actions, then you can stop making excuses for them.
Why do you feel the need to minimize or obscure their responsibility for participating in a genocide?
But the article is about returning soldiers getting poor health care for the problems they contracted during their deployment. You said "I have no sympathy for loathsome low-IQ bums who volunteer to mass-murder and oppress other human beings. I hope they lose their pensions, health care and are foreclosed on."
I think that you and I have more to agree on than to disagree about. I just don't blame the grunts who mostly entered into service with the idea of defending their country. I blame Bushco, big oil, big defense. I blame the generals, you know, the cowards who blamed the grunts for the abuses at Abu Ghraib?
I saw an article today about how the biggest oil contracts, recently established in Iraq, are to BP, and the Chinese oil company (I can't remember its initials). It looks like we're paying off the hundreds of billions we owe China by saying "We award you Iraq, with all its oil. Help yourself." Just a theory.
"You said "I have no sympathy for loathsome low-IQ bums who volunteer to mass-murder and oppress other human beings. I hope they lose their pensions, health care and are foreclosed on."
??????? Juvenile.
"I just don't blame the grunts who mostly entered into service with the idea of defending their country. "
Why??? Again, there you go. If we agree there is no way to justify their participation in a genocide, then why are you making excuses for the grunts who do the ACTUAL killing? Why excuse the 2 million Americans for made these wars possible against the protests of tens of millions of their fellow Americans?
Do you blame the Mafia but not their hitmen?
Sorry, but contract killers deserve no sympathy, period. Many in America grow up poor without resorting to becoming mass-murderers in the name of "freedom", that's the most preposterous excuse I've ever heard.
Toxins take a toll on the entire world. How utterly sad that we have to fight for the right to be healthy and to have an evironment that is liveable.
The people who produce uranium tipped , white prosperous, cluster bombs, and other toxins, to kill criminals in foreign lands who don't have a pot to p--- in should not call the criminals extremist. It is the pot calling the kettle black. This extremism is harmful to U.S. soldiers,and civilians for years afterward. causing what was known during the first gulf war as Gulf War Syndrome. An illness, the Pentagon denied for years ,was related to the chemicals and toxins used in the first gulf war. Why would the American Congress ever let a president repeat that ignorant policy of using such egregious weapons on Nations that are not formidable enemy? I am against violence but even people who justify violence should be against the use of such toxins and they should be banned.