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The Stimulus Bill: Go Big or Go Home
The $825 billion economic stimulus bill is easily the costliest ever considered in U.S. history. Some economists are dismayed by its size - they think it's simply way too small.
Their case is simple: the only way to save a massive economy with massive problems is with equally massive government intervention. They argue President Obama and Congress should grow the current plan by 33 percent - if not more - if they really want to turn things around.
This group of mainly liberal economists is the Go-Bigger-Or-Go-Home Crowd. A non-profit coalition is planning a conference ("Thinking Big, Thinking Forward") to argue for this very approach, and has invited Vice President Biden to give the keynote address. No word yet if he will accept.
"I feel like Princess Leia in Star Wars: this is our only hope," says Heather Boushey, a senior economist at the Center for American Progress. "This is the only thing we've got. It has to work." The center is no fringe group - it is headed by John Podesta, an influential Obama adviser who ran the entire transition effort.
Spending even more money is not a popular sentiment in a capital city knee deep in debt. Still, many Democrats privately tell us they are virtually certain to ask for more cash soon for banks, auto-makers or some other sector pleading for a bailout. One top Obama adviser said the banking crisis in particular is much worse than publicly known and will likely require a more robust response - after the stimulus is passed.
Obama and many in Congress argue $800 billion to $900 billion will suffice - for now - and the House version of the stimulus appeared poised for passage later Wednesday.
But given Washington's mixed record for doing the right thing quickly and under pressure, we are airing the views of the naysayers. In an earlier piece, Politico examined the views of the Do-Nothing Crowd, which argues that Congress should reject the stimulus package altogether, since it passes massive amounts of debt onto future generations, with - they argue - dubious prospects for success.
The Go-Big Crowd is motivated, in part, by mounting evidence of devastating job losses across virtually every sector of the economy. Their fears were amplified on Monday, when companies from across the economic landscape, including Caterpillar, Pfizer and General Motors, announced as many as 65,000 job cuts on the same day. Worse, some economists think the U.S. economy will be four million jobs down from where it needs to be by the end of this year.
"That was a terrifying day," says Boushey. "We need to wrap our heads around the scale of it."
With that in mind, the Go-Big-Or-Go-Home crowd argues that $825 billion isn't enough spending to do the job. Either the stimulus package should be bigger, they say, or Washington should be prepared to spend even more money in the months to come.
Unemployment, they argue, could top 10 percent if the government doesn't step in aggressively. And if the situation cascades out of control - which they fear it could - we could face unemployment levels not seen since the figure reached a horrific 25 percent during the Great Depression. In that crisis, total government spending as a percentage of the economy was just below 20 percent. Today, that figure is already above 35 percent, and may go higher still with the stimulus effort. Some economists argue that President Franklin D. Roosevelt was never fully able to truly turn the Depression-era economy around until the advent of massive government spending during World War II. That's why they say more spending is needed now.
Among those who say government needs to spend more, not less, there's a consensus figure for exactly how much more: $400 billion over two years, for a total package of about $1.2 trillion.
"The stimulus does not need to be timely, targeted and temporary," argues Robert Kuttner, co-editor of The American Prospect. "It needs to be adequate to do the job." He runs some quick back of the envelope math. "Eight hundred and twenty billion is about 2.5% of GDP. But the economy is sinking at the rate of five to six percent. So they may find out they have to come back and ask for more."
Kuttner and his economic allies reject the idea that enormous deficit spending is an immoral passing of the buck to the next generation. "This is not about morality, it's about economics," he says. Kuttner argues that even worse than government debt is an economy in which housing is unaffordable, jobs are scarce and college is a receding dream for many Americans. "What we leave to our children will depend largely on whether we slide into a depression or not."
Kuttner's not the only economist making that point. His publication is sponsoring the Feb. 11th confab along with The Institute for America's Future, Demos, and the Economic Policy Institute. Kuttner says that more than 700 people have already registered for the gathering at the Capitol Hilton, and that it is designed to offer a political and intellectual counterweight to those who are arguing that the stimulus effort has already gone too far.
The spend-more philosophy already has at least one important ally on Capitol Hill: House Appropriations Committee Chairman David Obey (D-Wis.), who has argued in recent days that the stimulus plan may "undershoot the mark."
So what should the government spend all that money on? There are plenty of ideas: supplemental income for senior citizens, health care and infrastructure.
Economist Dean Baker, co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, proposes an idea certain to make many conservatives boil - pay employers to shorten the work week. Here's how it would work: Employees would cut back their hours by ten percent, government would pick up the additional cost of that burden, and employers would have room in their payrolls to hire new workers, or hold off on scheduled layoffs. "We're losing jobs at a very scary rate, and I think it's important to do whatever we can to stem that job decline," Baker said.
For now, the spend-more crowd isn't impacting the debate over what to do at the White House. National Economic Council Director Lawrence Summers said flatly on "Meet the Press" this week, "We believe that this is a properly sized approach to move the economy forward."
Of course, in Washington, almost everything is subject to change.



30 Comments so far
Show AllDon't worry.
Before they are done, our elected officials will pack the bill with so much pork that $825,000,000,000 will look like chickenfeed. (Just look at the last bailout.) Unfortunately, much of the pork will be weapon systems and other military hardware so that the effects of the stimulus will be mostly useless for the economy but will be great for the important things: their buddies wallets and their re-election.
The crooks in Congress are just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.
"If all the economists were laid end to end they couldn't reach a conclusion."
Mark Twain
I do remember the WPA programs ( well not actually remember)that put many folks to work during the depression. I also recall ( again not there) that FDR reduced depression unemployment figures from over 20% to about 12% in barely two years. Thus there is precedent for some hope that Obama could actually do something of value .
The key is going to be whether these politicos understand that helped should go to the working class and not to those with millions and millions salted away.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Exactly. We're going to have to spend our way out of this one.
Remember, it's McCain and the Republicans blocking this bill. Shouldn't that tell us something?
Near as I can tell the objections from the GOP are chiefly aimed at the spending itself. They seem to believe that further tax cuts are the answer rather than huge government expenditures. Ironic sort of, considering that they were firmly on the side of our trillions of dollars spent on war and profiteering, but then again, so were the democrats mostly.
In truth I expect this to become a cat fight of the first magnitude, with the GOP taking the side already noted above and the democrats trying very hard to add as much pork for their own districts as humanly possible while ignoring the pleas of our new President.
Meanwhile many noted economists are saying that 850 billion is just not enough....
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
This is nothing but theory. They think that Roosevelt prolonged the Depression by not doing enough. Another theory postulates that Roosevelt (and Hoover) prolonged the Depression by doing too much. Both are THEORIES, not facts.
We have to acknowledge that this is a problem of too much debt. We've been living beyond our means at all levels (although the gov't might take the all time prize)and it's time to unwind, liquidate and/or pay down debt. The economy as currently structured is fatally flawed and cannot and should not be saved.
Any money spent should be earmarked to keep people from freezing and starving and to cover CD's (not over $100,000). Regulate financial institutions the way they did in the 30's. It worked until the bipartisan coalition dismantled it. Unregulate small business, legalize hemp, stop the Drug War, etc., etc. Sometimes you have to undo things rather than do new things. We need to build our economy back from the ground up. If they insist on putting money into banks, why not put it in banks that made good decisions over the last 10 years and are in good shape? (Mostly local and regional banks which, to me, are more likely to support local and regional businesses.)
For those concerned about increasing the Federal Debt there is a simple solution-
increase taxes for the rich and to discourage the behaviors that are destroying our planet and economy.
First thing is to bring back the "Speculation Tax" of 0.25% or even 1% on trades - it is estimated a 0.25% tax would bring in $200 Billion, maybe it should be even higher.
Eliminate corporate tax breaks for offshoring jobs...
To stabilize mass transit funding it is vital to increase the gas tax and consider other taxes to discourage automobiles.
Remove the capital gains tax break of only 15% which allowed billionaire Hedge fund
speculators to pay less percentage of their income in 2008 than any middle class American.
Reinstate an even higher tax bracket of 33% or so for multimillionaires...
Totally remove the cap on social security medicare payroll taxes...
Of course best for the planet would be a new carbon tax to discourage oil, coal, natural gas consumptiona and greenhouse gases in favor of renewable energy and efficiencies like mass transit.
Ordinary Americans have been sacrificing in the Class Wars since Reagan.
It is time for the rich to sacrifice their looted wealth and also for all Americans to sacrifice via gas taxes/ carbon taxes for the planet's survival.
Ah yes. The financial transaction tax, proposed to pay for the $700 billion bailout. Where hast thou gone?
Yes we need changes in taxes but keep it simple. Flat tax on gross revenues for corporations would eliminate tax breaks for everything. And eliminate all the tax lobbyists as an added bonus. You can graduate it and exempt the first $100 million so anything resembling a small business might get an even break.
Carbon tax also favors nuclear. Better to use a btu tax.
I believe that our penchant for running up great debt is certainly a problem. But I think that our current and severe economic woes may be laid more at the door of deregulation which led to serious abuse. The war of course , which is simply a profit center for GOP fat cats, has also assisted in our slide.
I do note that you say, on the one hand we should pay down the debt and on the other we need to increase spending to those in direst need, both laudable goals but antithetic.
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
You are correct. Paying down debt and covering a safety net are antagonistic goals. This is a mess but jumping into a "stimulus" that apparently includes everybody's wet dream of how to spend other people's money is foolish. Just read it includes $4 billion to expand the War on Drugs. We need belt tightening for everyone and unless the gov't starts dealing with reality we're in worse trouble than we are now. And somewhere we have to find resources for the safety net.
And you can't lay it all on deregulation, which, appropriately, implicates Dems as well as Rs. The Fed kept printing money to prevent a downturn in 2001-02 and this is the result. They encouraged borrowing and listened to no one who warned about this. Now they're printing even more.
It will take at least two generations to rebuild this and if we let it come from the top down it will never happen. Zimbabwe, anyone?
I cannot argue with your logic, especially after you note I am correct......;-)
. FDR created jobs, Obama must do the same. Rescind the tax cuts for the wealthiest, revise the whole darn code in fact. How about a flat tax? Slash the military budget, heck the Pentagon pulls down about 8 billion/year alone. End the insane war and save a trillion or so.
Clinton balanced the budget in a few years so a couple of generations seems a long time to me....
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Go Big! Excuse me for asking but isn't it the Big Players that created the mess we're in?
Isn't it all the Big Players that are going bankrupt and demanding taxpayer's money to bail them out? All of the names I've seen of those ailing and failing are those belonging to big companies: manufacturers, banks, finance companies, fund managers, a whole cabal of greedy crooks and incompetents!
We need to go bigger like we need a hole in the head!
P.S. There are only two groups that need to be trusted less than economists: they're the clergy and politicians!
www.dangerouscreation.com
I would add scientists to the dont trust camp.
Last week they said coffee is good for you.
The week before they said it was bad for you.
What's the truth?
I know-we'll do another study.
Will have the answer next week for sure.
Keynes's ideas were pretty simple.
When the economic infrastructure slumps a jolt of government spending will bring it back up. And the jolt has to be - obviously enough - large enough to meet the demand. The boost should be fast, creating jobs fairly quickly. After all, how long are the unemployed expected to tread water, hoping to survive? They need jobs. Now.
While much of this "stimulus" package goes to worthy projects it may miss the mark by not focusing on, and providing enough for, a true economic stimulus.
Times have changed since Roosevelt's time, and the focus today may be different: focusing more on high tech and a service economy which wasn't paramount in the thirties. And the focus of the proposed plan may be off the mark. As for the Reagan Republicans and their emphasis on tax cuts...... It's hard not to believe that overall philosophy isn't intricately woven into the judgmental failings which brought us here. Ie, less oversight, allow the market to correct itself, trickle down, corporate perks, no bid gov contracts, etc.
Keynes said "when the economic infrastructure slumps a jolt of gov't spending will bring it back up" Basically Keynes said you borrow, spend and cut taxes. He also said that when things get better you raise taxes, cut spending and pay back the debt. Whether Keynes was actually right or not is moot because we have never paid back the debt. We've been on a nearly 30 year spending spree with borrowed money and there is no way out except right through it. A "stimulus" at this stage of the game is more like beating a dead horse.
The Spring 2008 "stimulus" of $600 rebate checks did nothing altho those who said it would do nothing were ridiculed at the time.
One of the quickest stimulus plans is to aid EXISTING mass transit which has been clobbered ironically enough as ridership soars all over the country.
This would create permanent jobs and start down the path away from the Auto Obsession immediately.
See:
http://t4america.org/blog/archives/633
With ridership at record highs, transit agencies across the country are facing unprecedented fiscal crises in this economic downturn, with many considering layoffs, service cuts and fare hikes that are hitting at the worst possible time. This map highlights 51 communities across the U.S. that face job cuts, service reductions and fare hikes, but will receive no assistance under the current recovery proposals before Congress to prevent these painful cuts.
Find out more and learn what you can do to help at t4america.org/transitcuts
This may or may not be apropos, but I watch Boeing pull the same stunt every year. First they say they are going broke and fire a few thousand employees. Then they tell Everett and Seattle that unless they are given perks, taxes lowered, etc., they will have to move elsewhere. It seems to work, they get their perks, get rid of their people at top scale.
Next comes the quarterly statement that Boeing has made the greatest profits in their history! Then comes the contract to build more planes and they hire a few thousand at bottom scale. Year after year and everybody falls for it!
As to the bailout, my bank tells me they are very sorry that there is no money available to help retirees make ends meet and keep their homes, nor to help the marginally employed or those with medical problems...
However, since they got the bailout money, they proudly announced that they bought yet another bank! Isn't that exciting?
I've had many girlfriends tell me my Stimulus Package wasn't big enough!
Take my land, Pleassssseeee!!!
Henny Indian
Much too late, we got it already...I guess you will have to build another casino or three.
I think Manhattan Island is once again for sale.....
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
Good catch! So the stimulus is close to 6%. More is not always better.
love the name cassandra
'n your posts
'n maybe let it crash
'n burn
we shall get by
!!!!won't we?
ken
I don't think we have an option. It's going to crash and burn whether we let it or not. It's the nature of the beast. Another no-cost stimulus? Legalize hemp!
George C. Brown - Forget Milton Friedman and his ilk and get with Maynard Keynes, indeed! It worked in the thirties, and given a chance, it can work again (with some minor adjustments)!
Free americans from debt oppresion. This is the welfare we are not suppose to want that is used to help the corporations and the global executives.
Say no to and eliminate credit cards.
Have you ever thought that this global economic crisis is being instigated by a power equal to or greater then the World Bank, the Federal Reserve or the G8?
An organization that is cunning, enduring and very good at manipulating a global population to be deceived into supporting their aspirations.
I am not into conspiracy theories or the X-Files but if you look at the world’s situation from a distance a picture begins to emerge. The world is being funneled into a like-minded entity that will eventually have fewer and fewer corporations, currencies and governments. Few will control what was once controlled by many. It’s already happened many times in the past and we’re getting closer to the bottom of the funnel all the time.
Like the 911 event, the best way to have a population adopt a new paradigm is to have them ask for it, even demand it. The perception that the majority of our population demanded heightened security, the invasion of a foreign country, an endless war etc. could not have been forced upon us even with a military as obedient as ours, but if we asked for it all, well that’s a different story.
If you read Common Dreams you know the rest of the story, my point is that the perceived majority will ask for a solution to this world wide economic strife, a new monetary system will have to emerge, maybe three, and if you look down the road you can see what’s coming.
There is probable not much we can do, just hope you’re lucky enough to rise up and not get buried in the debris or become one of the many acceptable losses along the way.
The best interests of mankind are not the driving force of this agenda on the contrary, the population has to be controllable with only enough “inventory” to get the job done, so the few don’t have to get there hands dirty.
Orbit: yes we need to tax cap gains as U said.
A .5% tax on all financial transactions above $5000 -- yes even on home purchase -
would bring a lot to pay for strong plan
Furthermore a 5% TAX ON ALL DERIVATIVE TRADINGS ($150-300 TRILLIONS/year worldlwide) MUST Be created but don't trust Obama to do it and upset the wealthiest in the world who control him and other leaders: BOLD measures of that type on people who can afford it are unlikely to happen. PS: Taxing derivative trades is Ralph Nader's idea. Why isn't he part of this government of CHANGE???
Even a .01% tax, which is, I believe, what Nader advocated, would bring in trillions. But I would not look for such, instead I would expect the usual ; that the cuts will affect those most in need of help not cuts, the poor, the elderly, the children and certainly not those who write those fat campaign contributions....
"Most people would sooner die than think, in fact they do so. Bertrand Russell
The Great Depression didn't end because FDR primed the pump, but ended when capitalism resorted to its tried and true method of rescuing the system by launching a major war. The basic problem of capitalism is over-production. A war is a great way to get rid of this over-production, clean the slate and allow the system to rebuild. Unfortunately, the costs to humanity today would be too great to even contemplate. After ten long years of misery in the last Great Depression, the working class was amazed at how quickly things could be turned around and how all of a sudden money flowed so freely when the capitalist class embarked on it's inter-imperialist war.
Unfortunately, the costs to humanity today of such a world war, would be too great to even contemplate, even for the ruling elites because of the technological advances that have occurred in the tools of war. Therefore capitalism has essentially run out of its historic means for saving itself. The ruling elite has only one option left to itself and that is the power of its state to protect their hegemony at the expense of everyone else on the planet. This is the essential contradiction of the capitalist economic model. Capitalism can no longer save itself, because impoverishing more and more not only eliminates the consumers of the goods the capitalist class sells in the marketplace, it also produces fightbacks as more desperate people challenge this paradigm.
Ultimately, the ONLY solution to this economic mess is to change the system. The 21st Century can ill afford to continue to allow the capitalist class to control the economic system. The system itself needs to be replaced by socialism.
The switch from the neo-liberal model to a social democratic model will not save the system. It will simply prolong, for a limited time, the hegemony of the ruling elites. The inherent contradictions of an economic system based on the private appropriation of wealth by the exploitation of workers and nature are just too great to overcome and cannot sustain itself.
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Remember the butchery in Gaza by the IDF.
This is not 1932. At that time, corporations paid high taxes as did the wealthy and we did not have a huge budget deficit nor did we have a national debt. Today, we have a 1.2 trillion dollar budget deficit before Obama took office--and this give-away will bring it to $2 trillion and that is if Congress does not authorize any more money--like money to cover entitlements which will increase, such as Medicaid and foodstamps.
This money will not help the economy. There is no way that the economy can realistically absorb this infusion and create jobs. Nor does it make sense. We are going to spend 800 billion to create 2-3 million jobs--at least theoretically. Better to spend that money to keep state and local governments from letting people go.
There is no way to maintain any accountability for this money either.
Yes, this is supposed to go to shovel ready projects--but trust me, not many are shovel ready. This will be a way to give contractors money who will get to keep the money until many of these projects prove to be environmentally safe. Either that or folks will ignore regulations and just start building roads and bridges where they do not belong.
Lastly, giving money to failed corporations does not require that they make the necessary structural readjustments to how they do businesses. It lets them continue with their failed practices of giving most of their money to their top executives in salaries and perqs. It does not require that they develop better business practices. It does not demand that they get rid of their lobbyists as a basic ethics issue. It does not demand that no one gets paid more than the president of the U.S. The corportations would have millions of dollars available if they readjusted their salary schedules and reign in the all the waste in their operating budgets.
Obama wants to cut waste in the government but no one is asking the corporations to do that. why not?
Why aren't the corporations paying their fair share of taxes right now?
We are seeing the firm grip of corporate control of the national government and this is the theft of our money.
Folks, everyone one of us already owes $33,000+ on the national debt and that is expected to rise by another $15,000 in less than 10 years.
"This is not 1932. At that time, corporations paid high taxes as did the wealthy and we did not have a huge budget deficit nor did we have a national debt."
Agreed. Today's unfolding economic crisis will prove to be far more serious than the one in the '30s because of the added and enhanced problems/contradictions that have come about since then. Another aspect of today's crisis is the globalization of production on a scale that didn't exist back then and the resultant interdependency for survival that has resulted. Whereas a working class family in the '30s for example was able to keep warm and maybe even grow some food to keep alive, today's families living in highrises are totally dependent on a much more advanced interaction of forces and structures to keep warm and be fed. Many other conditions also exist that would point to how serious this crisis can become for working people, such as individual debt load, a much more sophisticated capitalist propaganda machine, a more technically enhanced state, a more politically illiterate population and of course a destroyed ecological system.
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Remember the butchery in Gaza by the IDF.