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Pakistan Blames NATO For Cross-Border Raid That Killed 7 Civilians
The attack, which a NATO spokesman denied, could add pressure to the Pakistani government, being asked by the U.S. to do more against terrorists in the mostly lawless tribal areas while many Pakistanis want the army to do less.
The US-led coalition in Afghanistan said it had 'no information to give' regarding the allegation. The accusations — and suspected American missile strikes — have strained relations between the United States and Pakistan's new civilian government in the days before it it elects a successor to ousted President Pervez Musharraf.(Image source: Sky news) As if to underscore the challenge Pakistani leaders face, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani escaped an apparent assassination attempt on Wednesday afternoon. Gunmen fired two shots into the bulletproof driver's window of his car as the driver was going to pick Gilani up from the airport in neighboring Rawalpindi. No one was injured.
"The prime minister is fine, he's well and he's safe," said Farahnaz Ispahani, a parliament member and spokeswoman for the Pakistan People's Party.
The Tehrik-e-Taliban, the umbrella group for Taliban-led militants in the border areas of Pakistan, claimed responsibility for the attack.
But the bigger crisis for the government on Wednesday was the attack in a village near the town of Angoor Adda in South Waziristan, a tribal agency thought to be home to Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of the Tehrik-e-Taliban, and a militant stronghold.
The Pakistani army and Foreign Ministry blamed the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force, or ISAF, in Afghanistan for killing innocent civilians in South Waziristan and undermining the joint effort against terrorism. In a statement, the Foreign Ministry said the attack was a "gross violation" of Pakistan's territory. Maj. Murad Khan, a spokesman for the Pakistani army, said ISAF troops in two helicopters landed at the village and killed seven innocent people, although other officials said as many as 20 died. Khan condemned the "completely unprovoked act of killing and regretted the loss of precious lives."
He said the Foreign Ministry had protested to the U.S. government and said the Pakistani army reserved the right to retaliate to protect Pakistani citizens.
A Pakistani official who spoke on condition of anonymity said the soldiers who landed in the helicopters stormed into a house and started firing as women cooked breakfast. During Ramadan, many Muslims fast during daylight hours and typically eat a large meal before the sun rises.
"They opened the door and killed innocent people, women preparing for the fast in the morning," the official said. "This is very bad, a really unprovoked act of killing."
Lou Fintor, the U.S. Embassy spokesman in Islamabad, said he had no comment on the alleged attack. NATO officials denied it.
It's impossible to verify reports in the tribal areas, off-limits to most journalists and all foreigners. But regardless of whether it's true, it will add to the distrust many Pakistanis have of the war and even drive more in the tribal areas to support the Taliban, counter-insurgency experts said.
This was the harshest Pakistani criticism to date of an alleged cross-border attack by NATO-led troops or the U.S., accused of airstrikes that have killed civilians in the past.
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79 Comments so far
Show AllHooray for our side!
Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan... if it wasn't for the collateral damage, there wouldn't be any damage at all!
Not to worry, though-- things will get better. There is such a thing as the Law of Averages, you know.
During the Taliban times their was much less bloodshed
If this is liberty and freedom than I am happy with the Taliban
You really ought to read your history. Under the taliban there were these events once a week in the local soccer stadiums in which beheadings and other fun spectator sports
occured.. It was also under the protection of the taliban that Osama and the guys planned the events of 9/11.
Noone is happy with the military solutions offered and unsuccessfully prosecuted by this incompetent administration but wishing for the return of the taliban is pretty damn dumb.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Surely you know we supported the Taliban in these years while we were negotiating a pipeline deal. The Taliban even was allowed to visit Texas as part of the negotiations which were only broken off in August of 2001.
We also worked with Al Qaeda in Kosovo, and Bin laden in Afghanistan.
The beheadings were criminal punishments. I won't defend their laws, but in our country we execute people as well.
We went into Afghanistan for 2 reasons, to take over the poppy production which the Taliban had effectively wiped out. Now we have got it booming and billions of dollars in the drug trade can be funnelled back into black ops, and to position NATO for the coming war with Russia (which was also what the Kosovo war was about).
You are entitled to your own opinions, but certainly not to your own facts. The idea that the US military was engaged in Afghanistan to take over production of Opium is so absurd as to bring your sanity into question. I expect, anticipate and welcome responses, but not if you are going to spout nonesense from the deep recesses of a disordered mind, thanks but no thanks.
The visit of the taliban to Crawford was during negotiations for the handing over of binLaden, which, of course, fell through. We did indeed train and equip bin Laden for the battle against the USSR's presence in that nation, but, of course, he hadnt planned any 9/11's at that point, nor made any anti US statements either.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
So arddee....
No doubt since you are such a avid scholar of history, you must know that the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that the ISI assisted in the recuritment of radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets, and that none other than Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for these foreign Muslim volunteers. I'm sure you are well aware that the U.S. armed these same Taliban to the teeth throughout the 80's, and we were fine with what they did with their arms as long as they used them to kill a few of those dreaded commies. Billions of your tax dollars went to these people while they performed these alleged beheadings you refer to. And our government offered no complaints about any human rights abuses of the Taliban during that time.
So, let me ask you...If Osama was indeed protected by these Taliban folks as you state, protected, I might add by U.S. funds and weapons, funneled through our "allies", via ISI of Pakistan, and this was going on while he was allegedly plotting 9/11...to make this story short (think real hard for a moment)...wouldn't it seem to make sense to you that the real solution to this situation would have been not to arm and support these lunatics in the first place?
Your "history" reminds me of the absurdity of that old Vietnam adage - "We had to detroy that village in order to save it."
And BTW your signature quote, attributed to Anais Nin, is incorrect. Not that it should matter to people concerned with historical accuracy, like yourself, but it does take on a different meaning when you actually bother to read the correct words.
When you remove your head from your posterior I'd be happy to debate with you. Other than the rather obvious fact that, when training bin Laden to fight the USSR in Afghanistan, he had made no anti US statements, had planned no 9/11's and to be able to see into the future would be a great asset for our leaders to have but so far no luck there. Pomposity and arrogance on your part is not a substitute for intellect and a grasp of ones subject matter.
Here I thought that, with High School back in session, you kids wouldnt have time to bother the adults....and Ill stick with this citing of the Nin quote thanks anyway.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Other than the rather obvious fact that, when training bin Laden to fight the USSR in Afghanistan, he had made no anti US statements, had planned no 9/11's..."
Nor did the CIA figure those 15 Saudis they expedited US Passports for in Jeddah would come back on 9/11. It's called blowback, and it's what happens when you think you can meddle militarily in other country's affairs wit impunity. You can't, and the CIA and the Neocons have proven it over and over.
ardee is perfectly correct in everything he has said. But I would say that the personal remarks would be better kept to yourself.
You are ,of course, absolutely right about my lack of tact. But this nation is abysmal condition and Ive simply no patience any more for those who contribute, by inaction, by an unwillingness to spend a few minutes on a search engine, to that decline.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Poking unfriendly nuclear powers in the eye may not be a good idea.
It sure as hell wouldnt be the first time! We're teetering on thin ice with Russia,. and now, Dubya refuses to keep his word and North Korea is fightinb back! Everyohne acts Like W is gone--hes not!! And he could do alot of damage before he goes--we need to impeach him! We would also to well to stop referring to the run for the presidency as the run for Commander in Chief, (which isnt esactly constitutional anyway)
This looks like Misters Bush and Cheney have started war on Pakistan now.
Between this and shooting up the Iraqi army and Afghani babies we're well on the way to America's War on the World.
A Pakistani official who spoke on condition of anonymity said the soldiers who landed in the helicopters stormed into a house and started firing as women cooked breakfast. During Ramadan, many Muslims fast during daylight hours and typically eat a large meal before the sun rises
Once again I call BS...those men that went in there (Whether SEAL's or Green Beret's or SAS) put their safety and their lives on the line so there WOULDN'T be Civilian Casualties...they could have sat half a mile away and targeted the whole building with a Laser and had somebody drop a 2000 pound JDAM on it...There WERE Casualties alright...but no women or innocents....This Guy was an "HVT" for them to even consider going in there
The Pakistani Gov't approved this action but they have to say all this BS to avoid riots in their streets
Oh please, spare us the "mighty American military men risking their lives for freedom so that we don't fight terrorists at home" BS. Your talking points are 7 years old. Can't you think of anything better?
1) NATO denied the attack ever took place. Your inference that the killers were American soldiers is based on .... what?
2) 2000 lb JDAMs will ensure there are far more collateral damage than otherwise. Sending men into a warrantless, no-knock search and seizure before dawn is a means of guaranteeing minimal casualties on both sides.
3) 100 years of warfare have proven time and time again that snipers are far more effective at minimizing damage to both property and people. Its also cheaper. If there was a high-value target in the house, why not wait for them to walk outside and take them down with a single bullet? I'll tell you why not; the American military is enamored with "shock and awe" tactics. Subtlety is not in their field manual.
I stand by my comments...and I think you are misinterpreting them...they went IN there to avoid just bombing it
and I never said they were Americans...I think they were probably SAS...that OP has SAS written all over it...maybe SEAL's....
I do not know specifically why they didn't use a Sniper...whatever the reason this seemed the best option
SnowWolf:
I’ve been reading your comments here and got the impression that you may be either a Fed agent or an Internet spy, who couldn’t read opposing (to government) messages without responding, thus blowing your cover. Please don’t put me on no fly list. I just do comments here to kill time. I mean no harm.
SnowWolf - Got an excuse thar eluded you - They were cooking breatfast in the dark.
You just can't miss an opportunity to run down the Military or your Country...pathetic
You remind me of that Dirtbag John Murtha that was ready to hang 10 Marines out to dry for Political gain until investigation and Court Martials found they did nothing wrong...and we are going to hound him till he publicly apologizes to those Marines and their families and resigns like the disgrace he is
Really there is no need to "run down the Military or your Country" as the facts speak for themselves. YOUR military is simply a tool for YOUR country's imperialist dominion over the world. Combined, they are the world's biggest terrorists, unleashing terrorism against all nations of the world who choose their own independent paths, free from the domination of the American capitalist class.
Exactly. The military is nothing more than a group of professional murderers and hired assassins, tools for the ruling elite. Always have been, always will be.
When one person gets killed, it's called 'murder'. When a hundred get killed, it's called 'foreign policy'.
theres no dark under IR and NVG...I was totally amazed the first time I put on a pair of Cats Eyes...There was "stardust" twinkling in a pitch black room...only it was just regular dust reflecting...?????...I don't know because there was certainly no light
Thank you for acknowledging that soldiers can see the difference between men, women, and children.
thats right...and they don't shoot women and or children
if one of the Targets set his AK-47 on "Spray and Pray" before he could be neutralized I think THAT scenario is a lot more likely than our Guys did it...IF it happened at all
This was one of those "When you care enough to send the very best" missions and they know exactly where their bullets are going...and they don't miss
You say "and they know exactly where their bullets are going" - Does that include Pat Tillman?
People like you, who lurk around to be the "loyal opposition" I guess, just do not understand that this is NOT goin gto be the "new Am. Century"! We have squandered our $$, our goodwill, our resources, and we are going to be left all alone and broke. We wil be a Third World country.
We will only be a broke third world country if Obama is elected...He is Jimmy Carter on steroids..remember 21% interest rates?...
Amen to that. And Volcker and Brezezinski are advising Obama. Unfortunately, Shultz and Kissinger are behind McCain. The plan they all have in common is the US becoming a 3rd world to facilitate One World Government, they just have different road maps. They are all Globalists, not American, and both parties have sold out the country. Another word for sold out is treason.
What? You mean we aren't a third world country already?
I thought we have been one since....uh, Reagan and his tax "cuts":
http://www.cedarcomm.com/~stevelm1/usdebt.htm
If you can't kill the taliban - Kill the civilians that feed them. Sounds like the Latin America solution. These killings and lies are every day now. Anyone keeping track? We've never been the shining city on a hill but this is getting bad. I believe we're deliberately creating terrorists to perpetetuate the "war on terror". Makes perfect sense to the MID.
It sure would be nice if you actually knew what you were talking about...
the same back atcha, wolfie. All that prattle above about Seals or SAS or whatever comes out of your ass. You do not know what actually occured any more than anyone else here does. But of course defending this incompetent administration is all you got after all...Sad little life.
When we read story after story about civilian casualties those of us not lock step ,zombie eyed neocons as are you sort of put things together in ways that you are apparently incapable of doing.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Yeah...and we Bomb "Weddings"...
The Enemy can't defeat us on the Battlefield...they know it...so they go where we are weak...Public opinion
They make claims that aren't true but that they know our press will gleefully publish because they watched the North Vietnamese lose the Military War and win the Propaganda one...
Its like "Tet"...We kicked their Ass Royally but the media wrote it up as if we had lost....
"A lie can go around the World twice before the truth gets its shoes on" - Mark Twain
In fact, it is we who cannot win this type of war, not ever, not without paving the whole damn country first. This futile and tragic policy is designed for two purposes only; to scare our citizenry into blind obedience and allow Bush his imperial Presidency, and second, to reap huge profits for Cheney's former company, for the oil industry that permeates this administration, and for those who build the weaponry. Just the fact that Bush allowed bin Laden to escape from Tora Bora, pulling the Tenth Mountain away from their imminent capture of the creep should be a rather significant hint.
As for Viet Nam, you are , once again, putting loyalty to the American Empire before common sense and fact, you sort of remind me of John Bolton, and he is in desperate need of a mental health professional. Killing a few million Vietnamese in a futile effort prevent the inevitable merging of the two nations into one may be fine with the likes of you, but not with any rational and compassionate human being.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Please get your facts right. We did not kill a few million Vietnamese, not even close. While you both happen to be right about Viet Nam, a war we couldn't win, but we won every engagement.
nobody's right when everybody's wrong...
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/vietnam/index.cfm
CONSEQUENCES:
1. The Vietnam War cost the United States 58,000 lives and 350,000 casualties. It also resulted in between one and two million Vietnamese deaths.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
What part of "blowback" do we not understand?
&YYY&
The Vampire States would do very well not to pick a war with Pakistan. Afghanistan is more than enough of a mistake. Attack Pakistan to further the cause of a first mistake, and nothing will get any better. Politically the Pakistan attacks are disaster, and show the VS to be an incontinent demented belligerent, spraying its poisonous excrement everywhere.
Trust me...Pakistan gave a green light....they just have to keep up appearances
you'd be amazed at what Governments let each other do while publicly decrying it
We'll let you do THIS if you let us do THAT while saying you can't do THIS but really you're gonna do THAT...its insane...but its Diplomacy
I'll bet the Farm that all the Countries publicly Horrified that the U.S. or Israel is going to take out Iran's Nukes are privately begging us to do it
Funny that last. Today, in an NPR interview your buddy, John ( I was ostracised at the UN for being a complete imbecile ) Bolton, said exactly the same thing...You guys all get the memos at once, right?
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Actually I've got 30 years experience in the Military (20 active and 10 as a Civilian) I've seen it all at least once ...
Bolton may be a bit "rough" for a Diplomat but you can't say he doesn't speak
his mind
Oh...and there are no memo's...or Codebooks ...you know...when they say..."Thats a Code Word for ________ ...He's a Racist or hater or whatever"...
At least none no ones ever shared with me...you Guys don't have BAD views...you are a bit too Idealistic but I understand that ....I actually read some posts and think...Wow...he really has got a good point there...
There ARE differing schools of thought on any subject ....Even the Military has some Hellacious "Turf Wars" among themselves
Just don't lock yourselves into Ideology...where you march lockstep on one position because you feel you have to to be a True Progressive/Conservative/Liberal/Traditionalist...whatever you feel you are
I am definitely a National Security Hawk (no shit, huh?) but if you knew my Social Views I might be more "Liberal" than some of you
and I swear to you on my Life no one in the Government is plotting to take away your Civil Rights...They have to protect everybody (like it or not)
What do illegal foreign invasions have to do with US National Security, O Great Hawk? You are a misguided militaristic dupe. I've never seen a liberal word out of you yet, so I'll assume you lie as well.
Sometimes you just have to take the fight to the enemy
and because I don't post much on the social issues you call me a liar?
you're a fool...
First you must identify the real enemy, and you have failed miserably to do so....The twenty or thirty thousand Islamofascists that comprise AlQaeda and its allies are certainly dangerous fanatics. But, as an American, I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell ( that execrable water walker)Rice, Perle, et al are far more of a dnmager to that which our founders created than any suicide bomber anywhere.
You are right in that one of us is a fool, Ill let history judge which.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I don't think there are any fools here, at least I hope not.
SnowWolf and I don't asgree on the war or Bush, thast doesn't make him a fool or stupid, he just holds a different view.
I agree with the statement "I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell ( that execrable water walker)Rice, Perle, et al are far more of a dnmager to that which our founders created than any suicide bomber"
He may or may not, doesn't make him a fool. We agree on some military things, some not, but I listen respectfully to his opinions. We all should listen to others. Sometimes I agree with you sometimes not. You usually have good facts, but sometimes not as in claiming we killed a few million Vietnamese.
Better we discuss things without getting personal I think.
He who casts the first fool and all that.....I do believe SnowWolf intelligent, but that only makes his rant that much worse....
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I suppose you think Bush is defending the constitution too...
"Actually I've got 30 years experience in the Military (20 active and 10 as a Civilian)"
Oh, I see...that explains everything then.
Everything from your poor grammar skills (you might want to look up the difference between "plural" and "possessive" someday), to your staggering lack of historical knowledge ("they watched the North Vietnamese lose the Military War and win the Propaganda one." ..."like "Tet"...We kicked their Ass Royally but the media wrote it up as if we had lost")....Uh, right pal. Sure. Those "attacks" on ships in the Gulf of Tonkin that helped escalate the war really occurred, the Iraqi's had WMD, the sun revolves around the earth...and I've heard that the south really won the civil war too. That so many people happen to think otherwise is all the fault of that darn "left-wing" media.
"I swear to you on my Life no one in the Government is plotting to take away your Civil Rights...They have to protect everybody (like it or not)"
I don't need you to swear on your life. I have my own two eyes and I can read.
I want my so-called "representative" government to follow the law and abide by the constitution, that's all. Warrantless wiretaps under FISA were ILLEGAL (until recently). Manufacturing "evidence" to justify invading another country (and without the congress declaring war, as the constitution specifies) is not only an unconstitutional act, it's TREASON - and I might remind you that we haven't actually "declared" war on anyone since WWII, but sure as hell have bombed the bejeezus out of a lot of people in a lot of nations. And who comprise the bulk of the casualties in any conflict? Civilians.
"Protect everybody" my ass. These people aren't protecting me. Killing civilians doesn't protect anyone, it just makes people more likely to lash out at the aggressor. To the contrary, these actions are making my life (and yours, and the poor people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Palestine, and nearly every other square inch on this planet) more hazardous by the day.
Yes sir, spend 30 years in the military and you're likely to come out even more brain dead than you went in.
My father was a "lifer" in the Marines. He did two tours in Vietnam, and "served" in Korea as well. Yet as "gung ho" as he was, he still wouldn't have spouted anywhere near the amount of propaganda and nonsense you have spewed in this forum.
Try reading a little Smedley Bulter. Perhaps that'll help rejuvinate some of that moribund gray matter in your cranium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
Smedley Butler? What possible connevction can you find with his time or his politics that are relevant now?
"Those "attacks" on ships in the Gulf of Tonkin that helped escalate the war really occurred, the Iraqi's had WMD, the sun revolves around the earth...and I've heard that the south really won the civil war too."
I didn't see any mention of those things above. For your information, yes we kicked the NVA's butt during the TET offensive. Better ask your Dad and get your facts right.
Be anti-military all you please, but get your facts right.
There is no need to be offensive about someones spelling errors or grammatical errors. We all make plenty. And yes, we won every major military engagement during the Viet Nam war, but lost the war. Didn't you know that?
Of course they won't "take away" our civil rights - they will and are, just redefining those rights!
As far as "national security", Here's my take.
on Sept. 11, 2001, Al Queada was a small bunch of criminals hated by practically everyone. If the US, through international mechanisms - including dealing diplomatically with the Taliban government - had pursued these people as criminals, the crimes of Sept. 11, 2001 would have been long adjuducated by now.
Instead The US invaded two whole nations, and violated the sovereignty of many more murdering tens to hundreds of thousands, and trampled human rights of millions. NONE of these millions has a quarrel with us - but they do now! All the ME extremists combined pose absolutely NO threat of invading the United States or violating it's sovereignty in any way - any claims that we are pursuing issues of genuine "national security" in the ME are preposterous on their face.
But if the US keeps up it's vile imperialist aggression against other poeple's sovereignty and human rights, we may, in time, have the worlds billion Muslims, and perhaps a billion additional sympathisers all doing everything they can to destroy the USA and settle the score. How, in the world, could we espect them to feel otherwise??? Put yourself in THEIR shoes for fucking crying out loud!