Exposed: The Long, Cruel Road to The Slaughterhouse
Millions of animals are suffering unnecessarily at the hands of meat traders by enduring cruel, drawn-out journeys across the world to be slaughtered on arrival.
The alarming evidence of their suffering has been revealed after a secret investigation by 10 major animal charities, including the RSCPA, Compassion in World Farming and the World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA). In shocking footage, animals including horses, pigs, sheep and chickens are seen being transported thousands of miles across the world, when they could as easily be carried as meat.
Thousands of animals die en route from disease, heat exhaustion, hunger and stress. The others escape the intolerable conditions only to confront, immediately, the butcher’s knife.
The video is the product of the Handle With Care coalition, which has united animal charities to campaign against the abhorrent practice. The coalition, which is lobbying for change in the countries concerned, unveiled an international campaign yesterday in countries including Brazil, Australia, the US, Spain and Italy.
Spain to Italy: Horses driven for 46 hours before slaughter
Across the world, more than a billion live animals are transported every week, many over long distances. The video reveals the horror of five particularly gruesome journeys. Australia, the world’s largest exporter of live animals, sends more than four million live sheep every year to the Middle East. Shipped in cramped, poorly lit dens, the journey takes 32 days. Three sheep are crammed per square metre in the ship’s hold, causing many of the animals to die of suffocation before encountering the slaughterhouse weeks later. Those sheep that do arrive are fattened before being killed in accordance with Halal butchery laws. Eighty per cent of Australia’s abattoirs are Halal-certified, raising the question of why they could not be slaughtered in Australia and transported frozen.Many live exports are undertaken to make the fraudulent claim that the animals are home-reared. In Spain, thousands of horses are illegally crammed into lorries for a sweltering 46-hour journey to Italy. Canadian pigs, in conditions just as obscene, are condemned to a 4,500-mile journey by land and sea to Hawaii, so that, when slaughtered, their carcasses can be sold as “Island Produced Pork”. For nine days, hundreds of pigs are crammed together in the dark, standing in their own excrement. Exhausted and hungry, they become ill, vomiting from motion sickness and waiting for long periods without food.Canada to Hawaii: Pigs transported for nine days
Compassion in World Farming’s chief executive, Philip Lymbery, said: “The cruelty these animals endure is completely unacceptable in the 21st century. This trade is one in which millions of animals suffer cruel and unnecessary journeys each year. It must stop.”Despite EU regulations which should protect the animals on the filmed routes, the horses are denied adequate food and water, and endure temperatures of up to 40C.Speaking on behalf of the International League for the Protection of Horses, Jo White said: “Long distance transport for slaughter is the biggest single abuse of horses in Europe, with around 100,000 involved in the trade. The ILPH is committed to ending this unnecessary suffering and with the review of EU legislation next year, urges the public to demonstrate its objection to this inhumane trade as a matter or urgency.”Rules on the minimum standards of care for the transit of live animals are flouted regularly, with many in such cramped conditions that they have no room to lie down. In Europe alone, some six million animals are taken on long journeys of up to 70 hours, which often cause extensive suffering.
No investigation is usually conducted into a live export unless more than 2 per cent of these animals die in transit; those in the industry say that 1 per cent will die on their journey – equivalent to about 40,000 sheep dying in inhumane conditions each year.
Campaigners say that humans could also be at risk from the live shipping as diseases such as bird flu are spread more easily. Britain’s trade in live animal exports is not on the scale of countries such as Australia, but the coalition wants the practice stopped altogether. In this campaign, the coalition hopes to emulate the success of the veal calf campaign of the 1990s, which saw the export of live calves banned in 1996. One woman even gave her life to the cause as she attempted to stop a cattle lorry at Coventry airport.
But after a decade of keeping the trade at bay, pressure from the farming industry prevailed. Traffic resumed in 2006 when the EU lifted the ban after a downturn in the number of BSE cases in the UK.
Each year, 80,000 live sheep and lambs are taken from Britain to continental Europe, and campaigners believe they could be dealt with more humanely by being slaughtered before transportation. David Bowles of the RSPCA said: “We are urging everyone to support this campaign so that we can stop this cruel and unnecessary trade.”
‘Live animals were living on top of carcasses’
An undercover Compassion in World Farming investigator tells of seeing zebu cattle arrive in Beirut on a ship from Brazil:
“When I boarded the ship the first thing that hit me was the smell. Even before it had docked you could smell it, a combination of ammonia from the stale excrement, the sweat of the packed cattle, and diesel from the ship.
Video footage of the cattle
“I didn’t have to look hard to see the effect of this. I saw two cows lying dead as soon as I got on board; the crew had been unable to get them out from among the live animals, who were living virtually on top of their carcasses. I’m not a vet, but it looked like the impact of that journey had been too much for them.”The crew said there were 2,500 cattle on board, and you had animals falling down that couldn’t get up again because they were struggling to find the space to stretch their legs. It was so confined they were constantly pushing against each other, even while the ship was stationary. I dread to think what it would have been like when the ship was moving. It was a very stressful environment; the noise of the engines and the dark made it unbearable for me being down there for just a few hours, but I can’t imagine what it was like for the animals on that 17-day journey. In Lebanon, the temperature was in the high 30s, but in the metal hold of a confined ship it was unbearable.”Because these were zebu from Brazil, they had lived wild on expansive ranches. So when they were moved on to trucks and ships, they didn’t understand their environment. They bashed against the confines of the lorry in an attempt to find their way out. And, in an effort to keep them as stationary as possible, the traders had packed them in so closely they could hardly move.”There was no provision made at all for the fact that what they were dealing with was a living thing, not an inanimate object. It was the same with the ship. The space they were kept in on this threeweek trip was simply a metal floor with little or no surface to provide grip; they were keeping wild animals in what was basically a tin.”And at the end of this brutal process, the very reason for their live transportation seemed defunct, as they were slaughtered in front of each other, a practice not considered halal by the experts I consulted.
“As we stood there filming, all I could think was, ‘This is so unnecessary and so cruel’.”
Pigs
Crammed together in the dark, the animals are condemned to a 4,500-mile journey to Hawaii. They suffer from exhaustion, hunger and vomiting caused by motion sickness.
Cattle
Zebu cattle are forced to live in their own excrement during this appalling journey; some of the 2,500 animals on board die on the way from heat stroke or respiratory disease. The rest are killed on arrival.
Horses
The animals are squeezed into lorries for this sweltering journey. They are denied adequate rest, food and water. And all so the meat can be marketed as being of “traditional Italian” origin.
Goats
15,000 animals a week are packed into trucks for the 2,500-mile journey with nothing to eat or drink. Temperatures exceed 40C, and many of the animals die from dehydration.
Sheep
Australia sends four million live sheep every year on the barbaric journey to the Middle East. They are transported in such cramped conditions that many die of suffocation on the way. On arrival, they are killed according to Halal butchery laws.
© The Independent
Yet another example as to why you shouldn’t eat meat, unless you know for sure that the farmer who raises them treats them humanely before slaughtering them, and also doesn’t fill them full of growth hormones or antibiotics.
Oh my God. That’s all I can say.
There are monsters among us and they look so normal.
ticonderoga wrote: “Yet another example as to why you shouldn’t eat meat, unless you know for sure that the farmer who raises them treats them humanely before slaughtering them, and also doesn’t fill them full of growth hormones or antibiotics.”
That’s very good advice for those who choose to eat meat (or dairy or eggs for that matter).
Having said that, I have been a vegetarian (consuming no animal flesh including fish) for 35 years and a vegan (consuming no foods of animal origin, including dairy and eggs) for 20 years. Frankly, going vegan is a LOT easier than trying to track down sources of meat, dairy and eggs that you can verify for yourself are genuinely “humane”.
You can’t just trust labels that claim the animals were treated humanely (eg. “free range”, “natural”, etc.), since these claims are not regulated and are often dishonest and meaningless. If you really want to be sure, you need to visit the place where the animals are raised and see for yourself what’s going on. And if you care enough to do that, why not just go vegan?
There is NO need for animal foods in human nutrition. An entirely healthy — and indeed superiorly healthy — diet can be had from the “four vegan food groups” (fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes).
Likewise there is no need to eat animal foods in order to have a varied, delicious and satisfying diet — there are plenty of sensational tasting vegan foods from cuisines all over the world, including Asian, Indian, Middle Eastern, and good old American traditions.
So, give it some thought. It wasn’t that easy to even go vegetarian when I made that choice back in the early 1970s, but today even the big supermarket chains carry a lot of vegan foods from tofu to Boca Burgers, and of course whole grains and legumes and fresh fruits and vegetables, and it is a lot easier than you might think to go vegan and just withdraw ALL of your energy from the completely needless cruelty of raising and slaughtering sentient beings for food.
Fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes are looking better and better. It’s harder to enjoy the BBQ when somebody comes along and imposes the “inconvenient truth” of at what price of cruelty it comes to us.
The more I look at myself(mankind)in the mirror the uglier I become. Maybe it is true that we really are the largest most destructive virus yet to evolve.
It would indeed interest me to listen to the excuses the worlds religions offer as to the treatment and destruction of “Gods creatures”.
“Each year, 80,000 live sheep and lambs are taken from Britain to continental Europe, and campaigners believe they could be dealt with more humanely by being slaughtered before transportation.”
I reckon the key word is “slaughtered.”
There is no justification for a meat diet these days.
None.
You can never return to the supposedly wonderful family farm–because it was that type of farm that made Pythagoros and George Bernard Shaw vegetarian.
And when you have millions and billions eating meat–this type of slaughterhouse is the only one that can do it.
The only answer is vegetarianism.
It saves water, grain, protects the land, prevents ranchers from slaughtering wildlife, reduces global warming.
The “friendly meat” movement is merely something designed to let the meat and dairy industry claim public relation points. It is THEIR job to make slaughterhouse conditions better, not the job of animal activists and certainly not veg activists.
But with meat on the rise in Eastern countries I dont see a bright horizon. Maybe a resource collapse could change things but…
A good video to share with your children at supper time:
https://community.hsus.org/campaign/CA_2008_investigation?source=gaba89
Meat eaters either lack compassion, are stupid, ignorant, or combinations thereof. More often than not, all three.
Meat eaters, of all humans, pose the greatest threat to our planet. They have a propensity to violence, and in general squander valuable resources in their quest to satisfy a selfish desire (”Livestock’s Long Shadow”, UN Report, 2007).
Nothing will benefit human health and increase the chances for survival of life on earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet. - Albert Einstein
SecularAnimist, I agree with you. It is easier to become a vegan than it is to track down a local farmer who treats his or her livestock humanely.
Right now I’m a partial vegetarian, with my only animal protein coming from fish, free-range eggs and some dairy (cheese). I’m working on trying to eliminate those products from my diet, however.
I guess, however, that my point was that there is no way that everyone is going to become a vegan, but there are things that anyone who is unwilling or unable to stop eating meat completely can do to help combat cruelty to animals. But you already noted that, didn’t you?
It never ceases to amaze me how hundreds of thousands/millions of people will support this kind of cruelty toward life, by ignoring its existence and by purchasing animal products with the only consideration being point-of-purchase price tag, yet become outraged by pregnant females in crisis undergoing safe, legal abortions, and support candidates who want to make abortion illegal and unsafe once again.
Twisted thinking is all I can say …
“There is no justification for a meat diet these days.”
–
“Meat eaters either lack compassion, are stupid, ignorant, or combinations thereof. More often than not, all three.
Meat eaters, of all humans, pose the greatest threat to our planet. They have a propensity to violence, and in general squander valuable resources in their quest to satisfy a selfish desire”
–
The posts go from condemning industrial meat systems and industrial slaughterhouses to condemning anyone, anywhere who eats any kind of meat…
Great to see such open-minded tolerance, critical thinking, and consensus-building here at CD.
ticonderoga__ You are incorrect in your statement that it is very hard to find a farmer that treats his animals humanely. I have been around many livestockmen and have been one myself, and that is not the case. Most use veterinarians immediately when their animals need treatment and give them proper care as they cannot afford not to and they do care for their animals.
As for the inhumane shipping methods, those are primarily other countries involved in long distances, which certainly should be looked into. We have laws on shipping times and care in this country so most animals are treated humanely although their will be a few exceptions. Do not brand all farmers and livestock handlers as monsters with no heart, as they are as good people as any other sector of the country.
Farming meat (even “free-range” meat) is not a sustainable practice. For that reason alone NO ONE should eat meat. There is absolutely no reason to eat meat anyway. We have other healthier options that could feed far larger numbers of people.
And there is a no humane way to slaughter an animal. Thinking that there is a humane way to butcher animals (that have emotions and a desire to continue living) is very republican-esque “logic”, kinda like thinking the more we bomb Iraq the more they will love us.
There are not enough resources or room on earth to farm animals for everyone’s meals, so thinking that some free-range choice from small “humane” farmers is a an option isn’t logical. And again, there is no humane way to kill a living being that does not want to die.
Science should determine our stances- and all science says that farming meat is not sustainable, not humane, and not necessary. We do not need to eat meat. We choose to. So make the choice- either the humane vegan route or the inhumane carnivore route.
Thanks Common Dreams for featuring such an article–animal abuse is arguably the largest source of preventable suffering in the world today.
http://www.goveg.com/slaughterhouse.asp
Kernal, you have a point. I’m sure that many farmers treat their animals fairly humanely, whether for reasons of humanity or practicality.
But because of the mechanization of the animal products industry in America, the above is largely negated by the fact that most of America’s small local slaughterhouses have disappeared, only to be replaced by a very few gigantic factory ones, and many of the stories that come from those slaughterhouses are truly horrific.
And if you go into your average large grocery store it is not easy to find meat that’s labeled “meadow fed” or “grass fed,” and it’s also difficult to find “free range” eggs, so for the average consumer not eating meat or animal products at all is far simpler than trying to find animal products that come from animals that are both humanely raised and slaughtered, and that are also not pumped full of growth hormones and antibiotics.
So the only way to really be sure that the animals you eat were both humanely raised AND slaughtered is to either know the farmer who raises them, and to know where and how they were slaughtered, or to raise and slaughter them yourself. So it seems to me that it’s much easier to just not eat meat or use animal products at all. Hey, maybe I’m wrong, but that’s the way it seems to me.
At a time when we can see so clearly the harm done by the animal-exploitation, it would be foolish to act as though
the harm is not being done or suggest it is inconsequential.
I can only agree with these comments . . .
QUOTE:
“Meat eaters either lack compassion, are stupid, ignorant, or combinations thereof. More often than not, all three.
Meat eaters, of all humans, pose the greatest threat to our planet. They have a propensity to violence, and in general squander valuable resources in their quest to satisfy a selfish desire”UNQUOTE
The comments which defend this torture of animals seem little different from the comments made by those who
alibi TORTURE of humans.
We have a great deal to fear from those who support violence and it shouldn’t be tolerated whether practiced
upon humans or animals.
So it’s about sustainability now, eh?
Quick question. For those of us living in places like the plains of North America or the steppes of central Asia or the pastures of northern Europe, are you proposing that we humans eat the grasses that grow here? Since that’s physically impossible, are you proposing that instead of raising animals (which we can eat) we plow up the prairie (destroying the topsoil) and irrigate the land (by damming rivers) to grow food crops? If so, how is that more sustainable in the ecological and long-term sense?
–
One other point - when it comes to killing living beings that do not want to die, why are we limiting our discussion to animals? Are we dismissing out of hand the possibility that plants also wish to continue living? If so, how is this justified given the amount of energy that plants devote to continuing to live and to produce offspring?
Simple Sauce:
What are you doing other than cherry-picking and antagonizing?
Did you have some critical insight to add to the discussion, or were you just going to continue being passive aggressive instead of discussing solutions to this cruel system?
The simplest, most comprehensive way to remedy such cruelty is to not eat meat. That is irrefutable, because otherwise the market will suppress any ethics or cultural compassion for fellow living creatures. Resource-wise, it is impossible for everyone to be “entitled” to meat and for horrific conditions to be eliminated.
But your critical thinking doesn’t stretch that far, does it now?
Having grown up on a farm where we raised all of our food, and butchered the beef, pork, chicken, rabbit, and fish we ate, I’d watched it all happen. At seven, my “pet” chicken, and calf were butchered while I was in the hospital having my tonsils removed. After that, I saw it all in a very different light. At eight, I turned loose the calf my dad had penned up to fatten for the kill. I’ve eaten little or no meat since.
From a couple of things I’ve seen on tv shows, seeing where our food actually comes from, and the process for getting it to the store, might make a lot of vegans out of meat eaters.
Another sickening thing for me was driving down a major freeway and seeing the massive stockyards along the way where thousands of cattle were crammed in like sardines, with little room to move, and the hot sun beating down on them.
I saw part of what I’m guessing is on here on a special the other day. I couldn’t watch it.
Simple Sauce wrote: The posts go from condemning industrial meat systems and industrial slaughterhouses to condemning anyone, anywhere who eats any kind of meat…
Great to see such open-minded tolerance, critical thinking, and consensus-building here at CD.
As ALL progressives on CD have noted, it is individuals that support the industrial complex. We all have noted that going after the industrial complex regularly fails, so instead we work at a grass-roots level and seek the support of thinking individuals.
As indeed ALL progressives are intolerant of the taking of human life, those of us who are thinking and compassionate are also intolerant of the taking of animal life.
“What are you doing other than cherry-picking and antagonizing?”
“But your critical thinking doesn’t stretch that far, does it now?”
–
I’m simply pointing out some bizarre tendencies in the dogma of militant veganism/vegetarianism. I’ve commented elsewhere on reasonable alternatives to both industrial meat and puritanical attitudes that seem to accompany a lot of intolerant vegans on this site, including hunting in places where humans have caused overpopulation among large herbivores by killing predators and finding local pasture-raised meat farmers. (Note, I have nothing against vegans, I just take offense when people accuse me of things like being stupid, ignorant, or lacking compassion simply because I eat a diet that is sustainable for my bioregion. Believe it or not, I was a vegetarian for 4 years and a vegan for 6 months of that.)
Clearly, the solution to the problems caused by industrial meat systems is to not use them. Clearly, the solution to the problems caused by industrial agriculture is to not use it. On that, I think most of us can agree.
Where we differ is in determining what is sustainable and moral in choosing what lives to take to maintain ours. There’s no need to talk down to someone as if they’re stupid for not agreeing with all of your views.
Vegetarian animals are brutalized with impunity while carnivororous animals such as dogs and cats are pampered as love objects and treated better than children.
Ahh, well Simple Sauce:
You’ve illustrated your pithy little shitkicker arguments in full scope now.
One of those smug little morons that says “if you kill animals, aren’t you a hypocrite for killing plants” and other contrarian shit.
Guess what, if sustainable farming were practiced universally, the plants are never really killed. That’s why there is, and COULD BE a lot more, a more harmonious relationship between mankind and the natural (plant) world around us.
Jerkwad pretzel logic like this doesn’t merit honest debate, certainly not when it’s from a wiseass.
“One other point - when it comes to killing living beings that do not want to die, why are we limiting our discussion to animals? Are we dismissing out of hand the possibility that plants also wish to continue living? If so, how is this justified given the amount of energy that plants devote to continuing to live and to produce offspring?”
Please, you are comparing mamals/fish to plants. Yes all life contains life energy but there is a big difference between mamals/fish and plants.
As far as where you live are you saying you only eat locally grown food and meat right now? If not, you eat imported food like everyone else, pretty simple.
If you do only eat locally, then yes some climates don’t work for vegetarian. So you eat meat to supliment your diet as needed. That is not the issue here. The issue here is people eating meat every meal not giving a care where it came from or how the animal was treated or how their crazy meat consumption affects everyone else in the world.
HUGE difference between a person who shoots an elk and has the meat butchered, shares it with their family and friends and someone who walks into a grocery store and buys whatever meat is on the shelf.
Simple Sauce wrote: For those of us living in places like the plains of North America or the steppes of central Asia or the pastures of northern Europe, … are you proposing that instead of raising animals (which we can eat) we plow up the prairie (destroying the topsoil) and irrigate the land (by damming rivers) to grow food crops?
A little research shows that the majority of the top three U.S. crops-corn, soybeans, and hay - are largely dedicated to fattening livestock. 80% of all corn grown in the US is for livestock feed. 56% of soybean products are consumed by livestock. All hay produced is consumed by livestock. In short, most of the agricultural land used in all countries is dedicated to raising livestock. This represents a considerable environmental disaster (through tilling, overuse of topsoil, water and fertilizer).
All that land, all that energy dedicated to raising livestock could be returned to natural prairie, creating natural grasslands for people to enjoy.
Please do some research before posting irritating questions that serve only to negate the guilt you feel for being a stupid, arrogant and uncompassionate meat eater.
Peace Czar:
Thanks for calling me a pithy shitkicker, smug little moron, jerkwad, and wiseass because I have questioned the dogma that animals are somehow superior to plants in the universal hierarchy of life. It happens to be a distinction that I don’t feel qualified to make, just as I don’t feel right in judging that humans are superior to all other forms of life.
Forgiveness:
See also my response to Peace Czar (minus the inflammatory name-calling) regarding the distinctions between plants and animals.
I’m glad that we agree that eating meat in some locally-based diets is not the issue here. I also agree that eating meat as often as most North Americans do from industrial meat systems is a huge problem.
My main point in this and other threads on this topic has always been that it’s not as simple as the black-and-white militant vegan perspective claims. I take issue with people who say that it’s never moral and never sustainable to eat any meat of any kind under any circumstances. I find that kind of dogma to be unhelpful in trying to influence others to adopt more sustainable diets and lifestyles.
Simple:
Are you a robot that inputs no emotion or personality into your writing. This is not a subject you can talk about as though a robot. In fact, I don’t find many issues in the world around us worth discussing like a robot.
Ever heard the notion of “elite meat”? Try explaining to regular folks at McDonald’s or Burger King why their food is NOT OK, but your hamburgers are totally acceptable, in fact, the right choice.
Hypocrisy and elitism are major issues in their own right. The easiest and most compassionate solution is to forego animal consumption. Period. As for the tiny slivers of the population that don’t readily have every resource at their fingertips, go ahead and have your whale blubber or whatever.
I see it all know. You have a level of zen that none of us can achieve, we must withdraw from rage and compassion to approach all with meditative thought.
I’ll do some spiritual musings on the cornstalks’ place in the universe next time I drive by the local turkey factory farm and slaugherhouse.
Douchebag.
WTF:
We’ve tangoed before, and you should know by now that I don’t eat industrial meat. Your point about returning prairie farms that grow grains for industrial livestock is indeed true. I’m not defending industrial meat, and I’m with you on the need to not support it and to dismantle it. You seem to think that hunting or raising locally indigenous species (like native-grass-fed bison on the plains) is somehow identical to industrial meat production. Being arrogant, stupid, and whatever-else, I do not agree.
Peace Czar:
Now I’m a robot because I remain calm when discussing the ethics of eating? Okay, you win…
As for “elite meat,” I don’t see your point. I’m not talking about rich vs. poor here. I’m talking about the source of meat as carrying a particular moral weight. I’m not wealthy, and I probably spend less on food than most. I just happen to hunt and support local grass farmers who raise and slaughter animals in a manner that I agree with.
I’m glad that you’re comfortable with your choices for your diet. I’m disappointed that you’re not willing to consider the moral decisions weighed and made by others.
“I see it all know. You have a level of zen that none of us can achieve, we must withdraw from rage and compassion to approach all with meditative thought.
I’ll do some spiritual musings on the cornstalks’ place in the universe next time I drive by the local turkey factory farm and slaugherhouse.
Douchebag.”
It’s not about me being morally superior. Nor is it about militant vegans being morally superior. It’s about finding a sustainable food system to support people wherever they live, and that means that there is no single right answer. I don’t see how withdrawing from rage or compassion is either necessary or a good thing. I also don’t see how name-calling is either necessary or a good thing.
We both see industrial meat operations as atrocities. I also see industrial agriculture’s plantations as atrocities. Perhaps you do, perhaps not. You’ve been too busy coming up with insults to state your position on that.
Humans are herbivores. The entire practice of violating, confining, slaughtering and eating tortured animals only evidences the depth of insanity and depravity that human society has fallen into.
See this Bizarro comic video on human anatomy: http://youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q
Visit The Herbivore Awareness Site: http://allinharmony.com
And discover for yourself the truth:
“When we kill animals to eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings, who are natural herbivores.”
William C. Roberts, M.D., editor, American Journal of
Cardiology
And…
From “The Comparative Anatomy of Eating”, by Milton R. Mills, MD
Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed
Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small
Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted
Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple
Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated
Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails
Simple Sauce wrote: “Are we dismissing out of hand the possibility that plants also wish to continue living?”
We know from science that our own human capacity for subjective experience, ie. sentience, is correlated with our complex central nervous system, including the brain. Mammals and birds raised for food also have complex central nervous systems, and also exhibit behavioral indicators of having subjective experience, as do other vertebrates including reptiles, amphibians and fish. Evolution, physiology and behavior all strongly support the conclusion that vertebrate animals have subjective experience, including the ability to suffer.
Plants do not have any central nervous system, let alone a complex brain like mammals and birds, which science tells us is the physical correlate of subjective experience; nor do they exhibit any behavioral indications of having subjective experience. Nor is there any evolutionary reason why plants would have developed, for example, the ability to experience pain.
And indeed, plants that produce seed-bearing fruit have evolved to depend on animals eating the fruit and distributing the seeds widely in their excrement.
In short, there is no physiological, behavioral or evolutionary reason to believe that plants have the capacity for subjective experiences such as pain, fear or other forms of suffering, while there is every physiological, behavioral and evolutionary reason to believe that mammals and birds raised and slaughtered for food have a very rich capacity for subjective experience, including an acute capacity for suffering.
Simple Sauce wrote: “I also see industrial agriculture’s plantations as atrocities.”
The vast majority of industrial “factory-farmed” crops in the USA, including corn and soybeans, is used for animal feed for factory-farmed animals raised for meat, dairy and eggs. The factory-farming of massive quantities of corn and soybeans is indeed an “atrocity” — it is also an integral part of the machinery of producing massive quantities of cheap meat.
I don’t understand something…Why is it that it is perfectly okay for “vegetarians/vegans” to be so incredibly aggressive and downright hostile towards “meat-eaters”? I resent it.
I respect peoples’ beliefs, I am a compassionate and caring individual who has spent years helping the homeless and mentally challenged, mentored children and run numerous animal rescue services. Yet because I eat meat I am labeled less-than-human, and let’s not forget… “Meat eaters either lack compassion, are stupid, ignorant, or combinations thereof. More often than not, all three. I can assure you I am none-of-the-above!
I asked my doctor about the need and/or desire to eat meat. She told me that we as humans evolved with certain organs and teeth to be able to basically eat and digest just about anything. Yes we can survive without meat, but more and more studies have shown that there are some essential components to meat that we just cannot get from vegetation, at least not yet. She also told me that more and more studies are showing that children especially should be allowed to consume meat at least until they stop growing.
Speaking of children…In this day and age when children are treated as mere objects, “things” that can be abused, tortured and killed, just like the animals we speak of, how can anyone (animal rights groups, etc…) expect animals to be treated better? Wouldn’t we be better-off first trying to save the children and educate them to the cruel and inhuman ways we treat our food and once we have saved them, then work together to help the animals?
Back to being a “vegetarian/vegan”…How come no one speaks about all of the fossil fuel needed to grow enough food for everyone? How about fertilizers, pesticides, etc…What about the economic loss from doing-away with meat production. It’s the poor underpaid folks who work in the meat industry who will pay the biggest cost.
I think this is a really big issue that needs a whole lot of research and discussion.
I personally think if we did-a-way with the politicians, ceo’s and religious leaders of the world, we would be able to come together as a “human-race” and deal with these issues.
PeaceCzar? Douchebag?
Oh well.
The world is not ready for globalization. This is what happens when the people doing the decision making,the law making do not have a clue about what is happening in the practices they prescribe for others. That cruelty exists whether you eat it or not. This is needless suffering and it has become a convenience to ignorance.
SecularAnimist:
Good points. To your scientific arguments about nervous systems in animals vs. plants, I don’t disagree. I’d say that subjective experience as we understand it does not justify a hierarchy of life. That’s just my perspective. I’d point to Derrick Jensen’s A Language Older than Words for some interesting thoughts about plants and sentience.
As for the plantations that support industrial meat, we agree. I’ve seen plenty of plantations that are equally atrocious that have nothing whatsoever to do with meat, including wheat, sunflowers, palms, olives, fruits, vegetables, etc. My preference is for the abandonment of all industrial agriculture, not just that associated with the meat industry.
“I don’t understand something…Why is it that it is perfectly okay for “vegetarians/vegans” to be so incredibly aggressive and downright hostile towards “meat-eaters”? I resent it.”
This is typical. Falsely accuse, demonize… turn public opinion. I have NEVER met a ‘hostile’ vegan! The very idea is oxymoronic.
I have met (and I am one myself) motivated and very dedicated people who have made huge sacrifices to help others understand the nature of their concerns.
We cook (all the time for others so they can realize that ‘vegan’ does not include taste compromise), we nurse (others get sick, we stay healthy so we are always on call and always trying to make it easier for others to make healthier choices), we leaflet (spend our own time and money on resources), we put up with people who are knee-jerk-reactionary and virtually spit at us these days because society has now convinced them it is OK to treat vegans like deranged assholes.
Sorry, bud; I have been a practicing human herbivore for over two decades. I have been violated in ways you can not imagine from physical attacks to numerous attempts by undercover agents at entrapment, to theft of property (small and large), break-ins, threats on my life, and unbelievable slander campaigns.
Vegans are not the problem. We are the ones who have been trying to get healthier options in all the places people are likely to want them for decades… and we work tirelessly at it and against HUGE and well funded corporate and government syndicated efforts to block our efforts.
And we do it for your health, your sanity and for the sake of ALL life; plant, human and other animal.
Munch1, if you don’t mind I’d like to add one more thing to your list of examples illustrating that vegans are the ones who are really being marginalized by society: Dennis Kucinich.
Have any of you vegans ever seen a dog or coyote catch and eat a rabbit? It is not a pretty and humane sight, but it happens thousands of times a day in this country. What do you think we should do about that as those rabbits wanted to live too. Also. as we move up the food chain, many more species of animals meet the same fate.
Apparently, most of you have never read the Old Testament of the Bible where God gives his people commands about which animals are alright for them to eat. I do not believe in setting oneself up to dispute the word of God.
I applaud efforts to treat animals as well as possible, but do not think some posters are justified in putting down people who believe differently about the use of animals.
SecularAnimist:
You hit the nail on the head with that point. Animal livestock and agriculture increases the need for industrial agriculture many fold, because the input of resources so heavily outweighs the yield. There’s no closed, sustainable loop that’s possible on their current scales of operation.
Thanks to you, munch1, and others for saying all the things that we know, but have to say out for everything looking for that loophole to magically justify eating meat. I’m in more of an eye-gouging mood today than one of baby-spooning the facts, though I applaud your patience and apologize for my own lack thereof today.
———–
Simple:
Don’t be so damn pithy as to question, “do I oppose industrial agriculture, not just industrial meat.” Are you talking to toddlers here? I actually have a secret death wish against plants… I care deeply for the animals tortured in CAFO’s, but revel in delight at the pesticides and GMO madness to our grain supplies. I particularly hate safflower… call me a sadist if you will.
Stop being so mealy-mouthed and polite if you actually want a discussion. Roll up your sleeves and present some valid points for discussion. And get a sense of humor while you’re at it. I don’t mind a few jibes if you’re actually going to talk legitimately and openly.
I can juggle insults and facts all day; I’d all the same prefer to really discuss matters.
You will find that animal cruelty and child abuse are linked.
You will also find that hunger is tied to eating animals rather than following our natural diets and you will also find that those with a vested interest in keeping the public ignorant on these issues controls land usage and food distribution in order to PROMOTE hunger.
The land required to feed a practicing human herbivore is 1/16 of an acre. Fifty times that amount of land is required to feed a typical American meatarian. It does not just represent a huge waste of land (promoting deforestation and desertification), these insane practices also deplete fresh water supplies and because of the manner in which animals are now being raised, pollute them as well.
Nothing is going to be well on this planet until humans turn the corner on this issue. It is fundamentally about human ignorance and the cost to all life for that ignorance.
Simple Sauce: It’s about finding a sustainable food system to support people wherever they live, and that means that there is no single right answer
Well, you just described a single right answer that simply parameterizes the ecology. We can arrive at sensible policies when we use reason, parameterize carefully, and put a lid on the liberal extremism that allows the capitalist to rampage, plunder and destroy everything.
Actually, Kernel, although I’m not strictly a vegan, I have seen a coyote catch and kill an animal. It was a woodchuck, though, and not a rabbit. And it was over in a second.
The thing is, the coyote has no choice in the matter. It simply cannot survive on a strictly vegetarian diet. But we can.
And if you want to bring God into this, I hope you don’t eat clams or oysters, because, according to the Bible, God says you’re not supposed to eat shellfish.
“I’m not a vegetarian because I love animals, I’m a vegetarian because I hate plants.”
- A. Whitney Brown
Simple Sauce: I applaud your temerity. I, too, live in a rural area and although I have significantly reduced my meat consumption, I also believe that there are sustainable systems that include human use of animal products. And I, too, have been trashed for that belief on CD in the past. I have rarely seen people bring such a religious zeal to any discussion as they do to the vegan religion. For many vegans, progressive tolerance is apparently a great thing as long as it meshes with their beliefs.
Peace Czar:
I’m not exactly sure how being polite precludes actual discussion. The rest of the posters here have politely raised and defended points, with a couple of exceptions.
I didn’t see any of the militant vegans bringing up points about how industrial agriculture plantations of all kinds (not just the ones that raise feedlot feed) are damaging and unsustainable. I didn’t see anyone talking about how hunting in areas of herbivore overpopulation where the predators have been wiped out can reduce starvation and disease in indigenous animals. I didn’t see anyone talking about the importance of bioregional diets (which sometimes must include meat or else preclude human habitation).
These things are all important to discussions about the ethics of taking life to support oneself, especially as industrial civilization begins to slow down an collapse under the weight of its impacts on the natural world. I managed to bring them up without calling anyone stupid, ignorant, evil, uncaring, a moron, or a spiteful shitkicking douchebag. I don’t see how that’s a failure to engage on my part.
Perhaps you’ll care to enlighten me as to why it’s not only immoral to eat meat in an ecologically appropriate and sustainable way, but also why insulting people in a print medium is necessary to discussing these things.
Simple Sauce wrote: You seem to think that hunting or raising locally indigenous species (like native-grass-fed bison on the plains) is somehow identical to industrial meat production.
You just don’t get it. OK, let’s play your game of justifying hunting indigenous species in a world where raising animals for slaughter does not exist. Given the paucity of wild animals, how long do you think it would take before all those wild animals are eliminated? Natural areas in the US cannot sustain unlimited hunting, especially for a population of 350 million. Maybe you think there should be a licensing system, whereby the hunt is limited? Or maybe a lottery? How long would it be before the elite would control the licensing/lottery? How long would it be before greater-than-thou types circumvent the licensing system and hunt illegally. How would YOU justify your place in the meat queue for the last bison in the US?
Well get in line, because there are at least 100 million Americans just like you who will say anything to justify their consumption of meat.
You just don’t get it. Industrialized meat production exists because the natural environment cannot support the vast over population of homo sapiens. The only egalitarian way out is for EVERYONE to stop eating meat. Period.
So you either support industrialized meat production, or you support an egalitarian approach to saying no to the unnecessary slaughter of animals. There is no middle ground because there are too many people.
“I didn’t see anyone talking about the importance of bioregional diets (which sometimes must include meat or else preclude human habitation).”
First, whales do not need to inhabit every mountaintop. The same is true for humans. Humans will only solve the issue of survival when they embrace (rather than oppose) ecology.
That said, even the Inuit would be better served (and certainly much healthier) if they ate an herbivorous diet as they are naturally defined to do. (Greenhouses if they wish to stop trucking in food as is done today)
Humans are raised in a dominator culture. It is accepted by them that they are meant to dominate all of nature. In fact, we are a part of nature and if we succeed in dominating it (altering it completely) entirely, it will disappear and so will we.
Now, what did the 20 million buffalo do before the English arrived to ‘manage’ their numbers? Just like the wildebeest of Africa, they overpopulated… and to the great benefit of the soil. That soil, btw, has been depleted by almost 80% on the US plains mostly due to the growing of feed crops for cattle.
Just think, we have moved from ecological sanity where herds helped define soil generation to total ignorance where animal manure is now used to pollute our water and promote other deleterious affects.
Humans are the last creatures who should assume a right of murder over other creatures and populations. No creature on this planet is deceived by man’s lack of consciousness in regard to the requirements of ecology and even his own ecology.
It is time for man to recognize his natural disconnection and the smug arrogance it protects and embrace the fact that every chicken he murders could teach him more about finding his own sanity than he could ever imagine.
Natural intelligence…Try it. You’ll like it. It’s not your corporate programming, it’s different.
Poultry, too, are raised and transported in horrible conditions. Over the years I’ve bought less and less meat, and when I do tend to buy from more responsible sources such as those that claim the meat/eggs were free range or pasture raised and not fed antibiotics or hormones, etc. But, it’s hard to fork over the much higher price. If I wasn’t married to such a carnivore I’d probably just be a vegetarian. I don’t deny that as a species humans probably naturally eat meat, but there is no good excuse to raise it in such cruel ways.
Totally disgusting behavior by humans — the absolute scurge of the Earth. I stopped eating meat two years ago. I tried for several years to go vegetarian. If every single person were confronted with the brutal images of inhumane torturous conditions and brutal behavior at the hands of humans, one must wonder how anyone could ever eat meat. Humans are truly the scurge of the Earth — no respect for other living things whatsoever — especially when it comes to profit.
WTF:
I know, I just don’t get it because I’m a moron, etc. I’m not talking about a hypothetical world. I’m talking about moral decisions for eating here and now. You condemn people who hunt or scavenge (road-kill venison can be very tasty!) and pastoralists who raise indigenous species that have been otherwise eliminated from their habitat. I don’t agree that these practices are immoral or unsustainable.
I’ve posed to you the question before about what to do where I live. In much of the Rocky Mountain foothills, elk and deer are overpopulated because humans have killed off the wolves. The elk now herd and graze like cattle, destroying the very ecosystems that support them, and they are now dying of starvation and disease. Reintroducing wolves is politically impossible, though the wildlife biologists long to do so. How else besides hunting are we to restore ecological balance in this place? Is it not our responsibility as the dominant species (the one that killed the indigenous predators) to do what we can to prevent the elk from starving and destroying what little remains of the native ecosystem?
I know, I know. I just don’t get it. I’m in the wrong because I’m not a vegan. I’m either with you or against you, and the moral dilemmas that I choose to acknowledge do not exist, and there is only one possible correct way to live as a human being… I’ve heard all of that before. Tell me how to ignore the destruction of the willow carr ecosystems in Rocky Mountain National Park that I’ve volunteered to restore as the elk keep breeding. Tell me how to ignore the nagging sense that it’s more wrong to dam the rivers and plow up the prairie to grow food when the bison that belong here can feed me as well.
I had the dubious privilege of being born at what I hope will be the peak of industrial civilization. I want to see us pull back from it in a way that seeks to restore ecological health and balance, by voluntarily reducing our population and our impacts. I believe that part of that involves rejoining the indigenous food web wherever we find ourselves. Where I live that means eating some meat as part of my diet. If I was on the Columbia River, it would mean eating some salmon (and removing the dams). If I was in an intact forest, it would mean eating as many fruits and wild veggies and grains as possible, and perhaps some fish or venison from time to time.
“There is no middle ground because there are too many people.”
There are too many people, I agree. As industrial civilization collapses, we will all have to find food wherever it is, and some of that might just have to be meat…
“I’m not talking about a hypothetical world. I’m talking about moral decisions for eating here and now.”
That is the point. This is not hypothetical. Humans are herbivores. Human herbivores are destroying the planet and causing unbelievable suffering due to nothing else but ignorance. These are facts.
The other fact is that five businesses that I have attempted to launch that would have made it as easy as going to Mc D’s to get really delicious and healthy food have been overwhelmingly opposed by corporate concerns and a government (FBI) that works to protect their interests.
Educational programs to provide critical information to schools have also been opposed. Yet, the importance of this to student health and to the health of the environment has been told repeatedly to government education officials. It is time for the public to realize that there are well-entrenched road blocks that include medical concerns (they make money on your ill health), agribusinesses and unhealthy global food service corporations.
“That said, even the Inuit would be better served (and certainly much healthier) if they ate an herbivorous diet as they are naturally defined to do. (Greenhouses if they wish to stop trucking in food as is done today)”
This would be hilarious if it wasn’t so arrogant and absurd. To think, people living sustainably for 10,000+ years in a place don’t know what’s good for them… If only they knew that they didn’t belong there in the first place!
Now, if only we could get these ignorant savages to see the light and change their heathen ways…
Overpopulation is also a HUGE myth used to justify genocide (and appease consciences) around the world.
See foodfirst.org, the twelve myths of hunger.
Like I said, the only problem is ignorance and the unbelievable suffering it is causing. Murder is unnatural for humans (who are natural herbivores) and only made possible by cultural indoctrination.
The simplest and easiest thing to do is to stop eating ALL meat. Why? All of nature including your own nature supports this course of action and ecological interaction.
You’re interpreting entirely incorrectly, Simple.
No one’s calling for the Inuit to forego their traditional diet. Of course not. But just because something’s traditional and sustainable doesn’t mean it’s the healthiest for the individual. That is objective fact, were you to take it as such.
If I lived my whole life eating a stick of butter a day, and someone told me I would live twice as long if I ate a carrot a day, would I?
I don’t know how to define your thinking, but generally it’s pretty short-sighted and PC-reactionary. It’s not you vs. the militant vegans, it’s you just coming across as lame. I like some fun, spirited exchanges, but have gone sorely lacking today.
“This would be hilarious if it wasn’t so arrogant and absurd. To think, people living sustainably for 10,000+ years in a place don’t know what’s good for them… If only they knew that they didn’t belong there in the first place!
Now, if only we could get these ignorant savages to see the light and change their heathen ways…”
Quite absurd. I did not say ‘heathen’ and if that is your interpretation, then please, realize the advice is given across the board to ALL meat-eating humans.
And, the Inuit are apparently descended from tribes from Japan. It is most probable that they ate very little meat before settling in the North, so it was an adaptation that is NOT supported by their ecological design.
The Inuit have the WORST incidence of osteoporosis in the world! And they evidence other deleterious affects from following a diet that is predominantly unsuited for their needs.
Everywhere on earth, humans have developed attitudes and behaviors that are not survivable. These we inherited from one dominator society or another (originally all linked). These behaviors are NOT natural responses to survival as you surmise and as you have been taught. The roots of meat-eating, even Inuit meat-eating, are other than you believe and that root has more to do with introducing cultural hierarchies than human survival or human health.
____________
The Natural Human Diet
According to biologists and anthropologists who study our anatomy and our evolutionary history, humans are herbivores who are not well suited to eating meat.
Unlike natural carnivores, we are physically and psychologically unable to rip animals limb from limb and eat and digest their raw flesh. Even cooked meat is likely to cause human beings, but not natural carnivores, to suffer from food poisoning, heart disease, and other ailments.
People who pride themselves on being part of the human hunter tradition should take a second look at the story of human evolution. Prehistoric evidence indicates that humans developed hunting skills relatively recently and that most of our short, meat-eating past was spent scavenging and eating almost anything in order to survive; even then, meat was a tiny part of our caloric intake.
Humans lack both the physical characteristics of carnivores and the instinct that drives them to kill animals and devour their raw carcasses. Ask yourself: When you see dead animals on the side of the road, are you tempted to stop for a snack? Does the sight of a dead bird make you salivate? Do you daydream about killing cows with your bare hands and eating them raw? If you answered “no” to all of these questions, congratulations, you’re a normal human herbivore, like it or not. Humans were simply not designed to eat meat.
The above discussion was copied from http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet.asp
Is it true that Native American Indians had great respect and understanding for the animals they hunted? Didn’t they see their world as one? Wasn’t there a sense of harmony and being in tune with nature? Or was that just a myth?
What about the industiralization of the modern world and the role of science? Today everything is broken down into parts, separated from each other, labeled, and compartmentalized. This is the world we were all born into. We have no tolerance or understanding of each other. We separate ourselves. We label. We compartmentalize. Vegans here, meat eaters over there.
This view that we are all different and seperate from each other is a misconception. We are all interconnected, intertwined and inseperable. We all look different on the outside, but the inside we all look the same. If we can all realize this, and begin to understand and have respect for each other as the earth’s family, then we can start to learn how to care for the plants, the animals and each other again. We have to accept that we are a much bigger family now. There is no getting around it.
For a more entertaining look at this concept, go to:
http://www.globalcommunity.org/flash/wombat.shtml
Just remember, we are ALL ONE !!!!!
Simple
?
Why are you calling vegans as militant vegans
Are you militant meat eater?
For a more spiritual understanding of what I mean, go to:
http://www.globalcommunity.org/
Do NOT skip the intro. The intro says it all.
I have been waiting most of my life to see this discussion take place on a venue that is broadcast around this planet.
All of the points made for each “side” have been done in a seemingly endless loop of rhetoric about this subject for countless millenia.
May I submit, that none of the above discussions have included this point:
The conditions described for these animals in their transport are exactly the same as those described in our history books for the humans “we” used in slavery….at the time,
some humans refused to believe that the slaves had feelings, and also at the time there were other humans who fought for the rights of these “slaves”…..
My point is… there is hope…as we have at least began to admit that we need not inflict pain on one another in the name of superiority….perhaps “we” as a species will take this a step further and recognize the “equal rights” of all beings to enjoy a full life….
Special Sauce wrote: I’ve posed to you the question before about what to do where I live. In much of the Rocky Mountain foothills, elk and deer are overpopulated because humans have killed off the wolves. … How else besides hunting are we to restore ecological balance in this place?
Nature will take care of the overpopulation of elk. It always has, and it always will. Man should not interfere at all. We’ve done enough interfering.
You are an elitist. You have tried to establish yourself as being different to meat-eaters, as being the savior of the RMNP, as being deserving. However, you are just one of over 20 million active hunters in the US who would be only too happy to save the RMNP….in a single season. Then there would be no elk, but I am sure that you and the other 20 million hunters would be prepared to save the RMNP from the subsequent explosion of rabbits. And so on, until nothing is left.
I will repeat again my contention: That without industrialized meat production, most wild animals will be hunted to near-extinction, certainly within one human generation. The only way to stop the slaughter is to eliminate meat from our diet. And that applies equally-well to self-serving elitists.
Contrary to what you may think, you are the problem, not the solution.
The ’spirit world’ is a natural part of the living world. All of it depends to natural law. Engaging spiritual consciousness requires engaging natural consciousness; which can only be accessed by obeying the natural laws of interaction… and those must be understood.
Humans are herbivores. This is one of the principle laws of human natural interaction.
The spiritual truth is the natural truth. And, meat-eaters violate natural law and consequently also violate spiritual law.
Yes, we are all one. And that one requires of all its elements (human included) to be law-abiding for the sake of the all and the one.
ticonderoga__ No I do not eat shellfish, because it just never appealed to me. However , I would hate to think of not ever being able to enjoy a good steak or pork chop occasionaly, even though God may not approve of the pork chop. As for being a herbivore, cows have five stomachs to handle all of that hay and grass, and they like it so much better than I do.
Without using them to pull wagons, as in older days, or perform in rodeos, I do not know what use all of the cattle on the planet would have besides ending their life as food, which seems preferable than letting them just roam around and die. I am not sure that would be such a great sight either for all of the vegans to drive by and look at, besides smelling the carcasses laying around.
It might be educational to have a look at a dead animal sometime and see if that looks preferable to ending up as a worthwhile part of someones dinner.
Forty years ago when I was in my early twenties I was a meat eater. I was attending a Junior College at the time and took a pre-med course that involved dissecting human cadavers.
During one class we were dissecting the muscles of the human leg. That night I went home to a nice home cooked meal that my wife at the time made. A nice home cooked meal of beef - beef muscle that looked just like human muscle.
I quit eating meat for quite a while after that.
I eventually returned to eating meat but about three or four years ago started to like beans, rice and grains more and more and meat less and less. I’m now a full time vegetarian and don’t miss meat at all - plus I lost twenty pounds that I did not need.
Overpopulation would be less of a problem if people ate veggies.
It’s the fossil fuels used in fertilizer that makes meat such a drain on the system. Raising food to feed and grow a cow!
So many hungry people on the planet can afford to eat exotic foods so the demand taxes the natural systems in nature that fed us in the past. Native animals no longer have a right to their land. Their Land! Our Land? Who owns the earth?
It’s the masses of people and their appetite pushing wildlife to extinction by consuming their habitat.
I BELIEVE IT WILL COLLAPSE LIKE A CHAIN BREAKING.
“As for being a herbivore, cows have five stomachs to handle all of that hay and grass, and they like it so much better than I do.”
You are confusing terms. Herbivore means naturally adapted to be a plant eater. There are many types of plant eaters. I assume that you do like potatoes, cherries, rice, avocado, walnuts, olives, lettuce, mangos?
The cow’s stomach is actually a later evolutionary development making it possible for cows to graze on foodstuffs that were even more abundant than fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, etc.
A cow is, is a graminivore herbivore. Humans are more appropriately called frugivores though I don’t believe that we are exclusively that type… just more like that.
There are in fact many types of herbivores; folivores (eat leaves), etc. Kapische?
Your taste for meat is cultural. And that is all there is to it. Others who are not raised to eat meat have no inclination whatsoever to begin.
“It might be educational to have a look at a dead animal sometime and see if that looks preferable to ending up as a worthwhile part of someones dinner.”
??? Is there a logic here?
I think I will become a vegetarian. I’ve thought about it for a while now. This article has kind of nailed it for me. For the longest time I stopped eating beef. As far as all the other animals, I’ve only eaten small amounts. But now I can’t seem to stomach it anymore.
There is a spiritual side to abstaining from meat, much like other things we abstain from: alcohol, sex, desserts, etc.
There is also a spiritual side to abstaining from T.V., computers, iPods, cell phones, car travel, jet travel, etc.
There is an ache, pain that goes with controlling our desire for all these things. How do we wrestle with that challenge?
Little by little. And with the support of others who are trying to do the same. We cannot impose our beliefs or ideas onto others. We can only show by example. And the example needs to be clear and honest. We cannot criticize those who do not seem to understand or “see the light”. It is a waste of time to criticize. Instead help others find a way to control their desires, whether it is abstaining from meat, or abstaining from a pair of Nike shoes, let them experience the benefits of their actions and applaud them for trying.
This is part of “THE NEW WORLD ORDER” that the
Bush Family was peddling. The Clintons have gone along with this game and no one seems to place the blame where it belongs..
All I can think of when I read a peace about cruelty to animals is Iraq. Humans are animals too.
munch1, your post that includes “The Comparative Anatomy of Eating” is an interesting addition to this forum.
This article doesn’t surprise or offend me anymore than the “inhumane” treatment “livestock” receive in factory farms or slaughterhouses. However, it does seem more rudely impractical in its own way.
Sure, i am a vegan consumer out of personal protest, irrespective of special dietary needs (i suppose i have the “luxury” of that choice).
i hope that all folks in this mindset are doing more to “fight” this “system”, and not just trying to outwit the choir, or feel comfortable for consuming only “free range / organic” or “local” or only from CSA’s. i suspect many of us are, and that’s beautiful. Endowed with this information, we must be vocal and disseminate for the sake of our (local) communities.
kloshe chako
Blah blah blah… Poor little critters. Its funny how someone could get so bent out of shape about “animal cruelty” yet walk past a suffering person without giving them a second look. And as far as the person who posted above that humans are herbivores, all I can say is bullshit. Impressive looking post but bullshit none the less.
In fifth grade, our class went on a half a day field trip to a slaughter house, for educational purposes. It certainly was an education. Us kids all knew that the pigs waiting their turn outside, were fully aware of what was happening to the pigs inside. The squealing was horrendous. None of us liked that field trip, huge black and white pigs bleeding to death with their throats slashed, as they were strung up with a big metal hook stuck through one of their hind ankle joints. ___ It was barbaric.
~ELMYSTESTERIO~ Interesting post you just posted. Someone else posts their opinions and it’s blah-blah-blah. ___ And what “Sir Wizard” is your post? ___ Educated wisdom perhaps?
And why do you ASSUME, someone who deplores animal suffering, would walk past a suffering human, without giving a second look? __ You the judge, or just an opinionated boor?
I applaud your efforts Agave… but “sex, desserts”? Why deny yourself those?
Sex is good. Dessert (especially when I make it) is possibly even better.
Want some recipes for happiness with no pain?
I was torn between Clinton and Obama. I looked at their voting records. .Clinton has more experience, so she has a larger voting record. Considering on what they both voted on, many times they voted the same. I was torn between the two. I then looked up interest groups and saw how the interest groups rated them. Clinton had #7 animal rights groups give her an 86%. #17 other animal rights interest groups gave her 100%. Obama had only #3 animal rights interest group that gave him 60%,60%, & 20%. I knew Hillary Clinton was for me. To think that the blameless creaters don’t have a chance, and that the only voice they have is not their own.
Please, for the animals vote for Hillary Clinton!
Good for you, agave! I’ve recently become a vegan (formerly vegetarian as well as meat eater), after seeing stories and videos like the ones above. If the cruelty of meat “production” doesn’t sway people, I would think the unsanitariness and unhealthiness of it would. Who would want to eat meat that’s been shat upon or is sick or diseased? Gross!
For me, I just came to believe, to the bottom of my heart, that this is murder. And no, I’m not calling meat eaters murderers. But those who eat meat from factory farms are complicit in the torture and murder of innocent, beautiful, sentient creatures. Truly horrific what we humans do. Does this make me a militant for feeling this way? If so, then I embrace the label.
Tinylotus, I had the very same reaction when I saw the animals transported in these containers. It reminded me of the human slave trade; slaves were treated as disposable chattel, without feelings, without souls. We have not evolved at all, IMO. Our cruelty and inhumanity have just taken a different form (and there are so many!). But I applaud, like you, the fact that there seems to be a growing recognition that what we are doing to these innocent, sentient beings is an abomination. And hopefully things will change.
As for the reference above to the bible, I have never been able to stomach the Old Testament concept of killing animals for ritual sacrifice, just as there is much else in the Old Testament that I find unacceptable (incest would be one). The God that I know and love would not sanction the torture and starvation of animals.
i’m glad to see this article is from a u.k. source. at least the folk in the u.k. might take notice. it’s very interesting that animal rights issues seem to take a precedence over others. for instance, look at the amount of comments on the following issues:
iraq’s tidal wave of misery - 10 comments
inequality, not identity, fuels violence in kenya - 10 comments
surge in spending on nukes a grave error - 26 comments
u.s. accused of using ‘kangaroo court’ - 83 comments (another ‘independent/u.k’ article)
video reveals violation of laws, abuse of cows at slaughterhouse - 114 comments.
the total amount of comments so far on this issue is 79. it will probably surpass the 114 of the cow slaughterhouse article.
to my mind it goes to show that people care more about animals than they do about iraqi suffering, african conflicts, nuclear proliferation or terrorists…………
BTW, i do not have a problem with this……………
tinylotus, nice comments. Are you familiar with Marjorie Spiegel’s book, “The Dreaded Comparison, Human and Animal Slavery”? A must read, for the reasons you mentioned.
Kem, are you serious about a field trip to a slaughter house? It must have been awhile ago because it would never be allowed nowadays. Most are guarded like prison facilities.
I was going to suggest that very thing for todays high schoolers. Why not be educated about our food sources? Then we could make an informed decision about our eating habits. Of course they would need to bring ear plugs because the squeals of fear and agony are deafening. Also they would need to bring barf bags because if they didn’t vomit from the horror most would from the stench.
We are free to choose to eat meat slaughtered from todays hideously insane conditions, but if we seriously look at those conditions we can’t help but be shocked and deeply saddened, if not horrified. It’s one more example of a world gone wrong.
“I’ve posed to you the question before about what to do where I live. In much of the Rocky Mountain foothills, elk and deer are overpopulated because humans have killed off the wolves. The elk now herd and graze like cattle, destroying the very ecosystems that support them, and they are now dying of starvation and disease.”
Simple Sauce, I’m afraid I must jump in here and catch a ride on your bandwagon…especially regarding hunting. I live in Central Texas and in spite of our Parks and Wildlife Department doing constant whitetail deer population studies and determining per county bag limits based on these annual studies, the whitetail population is increasing to the point where there is over browsing which results in starvation of many deer. One major reason the existing populations are overbrowsing is because their natural habitat is being taken away by the developing of the and for human occupation (subdivisions, roads, etc.)Hunting is used to manage the herds and the money derived from the sale of hunting licenses is used to perpetuate the studies as we as provide additional food reserves in areas that have been overbrowsed in spite of existing bag limits. I don’t know about how others here feel personally, but I would rather see the populations being managed through the practice of hunting rather than starvation. One way or another, some of the population loses and at least when an animal is taken as game is is used for food (I hope…I do loathe trophy hunters!) I have a suggestion for those who oppose hunting…buy a hunting license with a non-game stamp if available. This way you put your money where your mouth is. I used to hunt but do not anymore, not because I have a dislike for hunting/hunters (most hunters/fishermen have a tremendous respect for the game they hunt or fish for and will do anything that will benefit the species in general) but rather just don’t care to get up that early to go out and hunt and get cold. I do however still buy the license because I know that money is being put to good use in caring for the entire wildlife population.
One more point I believe needs addressing…for those who believe in evolution as I do. It has been theroized that we humans as a species developed our superior (?) brain by eating meat and lots of it through a long period…the point being that our brains have developed to the point they are because large amounts of protein have been comsumed over a long time allowing for the increase in brain size.
Cheers all and have a great day!!!
-Shawn, BSF, RPLS (Bachelor of Science Forestry/Registered Professional Land Surveyor)
rminniss February 13th, 2008 9:0
“Please, for the animals vote for Hillary Clinton!”
Hillary is the NWO’s gal (just ask Anne Coulter and the rest of the Faux News group). I’m sure her ideas will be very good for the other animals,it’s her policies toward the Homosapiens that worries me.
“One more point I believe needs addressing…for those who believe in evolution as I do. It has been theroized that we humans as a species developed our superior (?) brain by eating meat and lots of it through a long period…the point being that our brains have developed to the point they are because large amounts of protein have been comsumed over a long time allowing for the increase in brain size.”
Who writes this stuff? This flies in the face of all the facts. One, few people even ate meat until the introduction of refrigeration. Before that people had small brains? Or is it that only MOST people had small brains?
As far as protein is concerned, the actual amount of protein in any number of vegetables such as broccoli is truly astonishing. And, humans like all creatures have optimal parameters. Those do not include excessive protein or the wrong type of protein.
The idea that brains were enlarged (or did you mean swollen;) by being poisoned is absurd and another attempt to create an ‘historical/anthropological’ dietary myth to derail reasonable and logical and fact-based discussions on the subject of what constitutes a healthy (ecologically sound) human diet.
But let’s look at one of the problems for humans who consume animal proteins (quote copied from http://notmilk.com/deb/092098.html)
“WHY DOES ANIMAL PROTEIN CAUSE BONE LOSS?
I spoke with Dr. Sellmeyer, and here is her explanation:
“Sulphur-containing amino acids in protein-containing foods are metabolized to sulfuric acid. Animal foods provide predominantly acid precursors. Acidosis stimulates osteoclastic activity and inhibits osteoblast activity.” ”
And, acidosis in humans also signals the environment to decompose us since humans become decidedly acidic upon death… so, all you meat-eaters, you are not only participating in the rape, torture and murder of other animals you should be leaving alone, the environment is being signaled to do its best to kill you also.
You won’t get a bigger brain by eating meat. And frankly, considering the resistance to understanding ecological principals on this planet amongst humans, I would say that a ‘bigger’ brain can quite logically be ruled out as a part of human characteristics. It never happened, at least not functionally.
Humans are herbivores. Behave accordingly and then see what benefits, intellectual and otherwise, can be reaped.
Oooo, a veggie flame war! Loads of fun for everyone!
I have never bought into the argument that human critters are “naturally herbivores.” It’s usually claimed through comparative anatomy, which honestly doesn’t prove very much. The anthropological evidence is sketchier.
I have to remember to not click on any article on CD about this sorta thing, because as soon as you scroll down to comments, you can almost hear the minds of veg’s closing like a steel trap. “If you eat meat, regardless of what other good you may do in the world, you’re EVIL!!! *snap!*” Ugh.
And here’s something else to chew on: Most veggie meat-substitutes are highly processed food. Is that an improvement? I don’t think so. (Bonus points for you if you wisely avoid such things.)
BTW: Shipping pigs from the Mainland to Hawaiʻi and calling it “local” is fraud, and seriously, to my Island friends: where’s the local pride, brah?
Hi REBELNOW, Yes indeed, very serious and indeed it was a long time ago for me. I’m 72 now so it was 62 years ago. It was a slaughter house that supplied most of the the meat for a mid-sized town in Michigan that was heavily populated with Dutch immigrants. Most of the school’s students were were farm kids.
You could buy meat right there at the slaughter house store. I remember being a bit surprised that it was very clean for a slaughter house. Also they didn’t physically abuse the animals before they were led to the knife. They just killed them and butchered em up. They bled them while their hearts were still beating and then used the blood in sausage, nothing was wasted, even the cattle hoofs were ground up for gelatin.
Chicken feet were sold for use in soups, all meat scraps, the guts, eyeballs, etc, from the pigs, sheep and cattle were made into scrabble. Ever heard of Mountain Oysters? That’s bull’s nuts, hammered flat, deep fried and smothered with a thick sauce or gravy.
~COCO~. I don’t believe the other articles are ignored, or that people don’t care about humanity suffering. __ I sure do. It is just that for me for example, I often don’t know what to say usually and don’t know how to stop it. Then too, twelve or so articles appear here daily and I usually only blog on three of them.
This animal subject is often more talked about with more comments, because it is more like politics and there also are a large number of vegetarians who blog here. The whale issues didn’t get a lot of comments either you may recall and then this is a lead article too.
Of course SOME people probably do care more for dumb animals than they do for people. I never have had an animal insult me, rob me, sue me, pass me on a blind curve, or otherwise piss me off.
“I have never bought into the argument that human critters are “naturally herbivores.” ”
It isn’t being sold. The facts speak for themselves.
Here’s another quote from: http://www.stopcancer.co.uk/Humans_are_herbivores.htm
” Humans are herbivores
The health risks of eating meat
Cardiologist William C. Roberts, Editor in chief of The American Journal of Cardiology and medical director of the Baylor Heart and Vascular Institute at Baylor University Medical Center in Dallas the famed cattle state of Texas itself, says without hesitation that Humans aren’t physiologically designed to eat meat. He states that the evidence is pretty clear. If you look at various characteristics of carnivores (meat eaters) versus herbivores (non-meat eaters), it doesn’t take a genius to see where humans compare” ”
and for those who missed it first time around…
From “The Comparative Anatomy of Eating”, by Milton R. Mills, MD
Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed
Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle
Jaw Joint Location
CARNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HERBIVORE: Above the plane of the molars
OMNIVORE: On same plane as molar teeth
HUMAN: Above the plane of the molars
Jaw Motion
CARNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side motion
HERBIVORE: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
OMNIVORE: Shearing; minimal side-to-side
HUMAN: No shear; good side-to-side, front-to-back
Major Jaw Muscles
CARNIVORE: Temporalis
HERBIVORE: Masseter and pterygoids
OMNIVORE: Temporalis
HUMAN: Masseter and pterygoids
Mouth Opening vs. Head Size
CARNIVORE: Large
HERBIVORE: Small
OMNIVORE: Large
HUMAN: Small
Teeth: Incisors
CARNIVORE: Short and pointed
HERBIVORE: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
OMNIVORE: Short and pointed
HUMAN: Broad, flattened and spade shaped
Teeth: Canines
CARNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HERBIVORE: Dull and short or long (for defense), or none
OMNIVORE: Long, sharp and curved
HUMAN: Short and blunted
Teeth: Molars
CARNIVORE: Sharp, jagged and blade shaped
HERBIVORE: Flattened with cusps vs complex surface
OMNIVORE: Sharp blades and/or flattened
HUMAN: Flattened with nodular cusps
Chewing
CARNIVORE: None; swallows food whole
HERBIVORE: Extensive chewing necessary
OMNIVORE: Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
HUMAN: Extensive chewing necessary
Saliva
CARNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HERBIVORE: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
OMNIVORE: No digestive enzymes
HUMAN: Carbohydrate digesting enzymes
Stomach Type
CARNIVORE: Simple
HERBIVORE: Simple or multiple chambers
OMNIVORE: Simple
HUMAN: Simple
Stomach Acidity
CARNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HERBIVORE: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
OMNIVORE: Less than or equal to pH 1 with food in stomach
HUMAN: pH 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Stomach Capacity
CARNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HERBIVORE: Less than 30% of total volume of digestive tract
OMNIVORE: 60% to 70% of total volume of digestive tract
HUMAN: 21% to 27% of total volume of digestive tract
Length of Small Intestine
CARNIVORE: 3 to 6 times body length
HERBIVORE: 10 to more than 12 times body length
OMNIVORE: 4 to 6 times body length
HUMAN: 10 to 11 times body length
Colon
CARNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HERBIVORE: Long, complex; may be sacculated
OMNIVORE: Simple, short and smooth
HUMAN: Long, sacculated
Liver
CARNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HERBIVORE: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
OMNIVORE: Can detoxify vitamin A
HUMAN: Cannot detoxify vitamin A
Kidney
CARNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HERBIVORE: Moderately concentrated urine
OMNIVORE: Extremely concentrated urine
HUMAN: Moderately concentrated urine
Nails
CARNIVORE: Sharp claws
HERBIVORE: Flattened nails or blunt hooves
OMNIVORE: Sharp claws
HUMAN: Flattened nails
““If you eat meat, regardless of what other good you may do in the world, you’re EVIL!!! *snap!*” Ugh.”
Pray tell…
After promoting desertification, deforestation, water pollution and depletion, animal suffering, heart disease in humans, rampant species losses… what good deeds are you planning for your closing act?
I’ve had cats igmore me. They are godd at that.
O.K. I’m working on comment # 91 or whatever. I think we might make it past 100.
munch1 - It’s not that I’m trying to say that dessert or sex is bad. As far as the former goes, I cannot eat much dessert for medical reasons. Actually it’s not the sweet so much. It’s the wheat/gluten - one of those overly processed grains that’s in EVERYTHING these days. It makes it hard to be vegetarian as most vegetarian dishes rely heavily on grains, and almost all the grains typ