Justice Dept. ‘Cannot’ Probe Waterboarding, Mukasey Says
The attorney general yesterday rejected growing congressional calls for a criminal investigation of the CIA’s use of simulated drownings to extract information from its detainees, as Vice President Cheney called it a “good thing” that the CIA was able to learn what it did from those subjected to the practice.
The remarks reflected a renewed effort by the Bush administration to defend its past approval of the interrogation tactic known as waterboarding, which some lawmakers, human rights experts and international lawyers have described as illegal torture.
Testifying before the House Judiciary Committee, Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey said Justice Department lawyers concluded that the CIA’s use of waterboarding in 2002 and 2003 was legal, and therefore the department cannot investigate whether a crime had occurred.
“That would mean that the same department that authorized the program would now consider prosecuting somebody who followed that advice,” he said.
New controversy about waterboarding has swirled in Washington since CIA Director Michael V. Hayden confirmed Tuesday that the CIA used the tactic on al-Qaeda prisoners Khalid Sheik Mohammed; Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, commonly known as Abu Zubaida; and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri at a secret detention site. In congressional testimony, he defended the treatment as necessary to obtain information about potential terrorist attacks.
The next day, White House spokesman Tony Fratto provoked criticism from lawmakers and others when he said that even though the CIA no longer uses waterboarding, it could do so again with Bush’s approval, which would “depend on the circumstances,” including whether “an attack might be imminent.”
Independent legal experts have said the use of a tactic meant to coerce detainees to talk by making them fear death through drowning is barred by U.S. laws and treaties under all circumstances, a viewpoint the administration has made clear it rejects. At the same time, Fratto and Hayden yesterday played down the idea that the administration could freely order more simulated drownings.
“In my own view, the view of my lawyers and the Department of Justice, it is not certain that that technique would be considered to be lawful under current statute,” Hayden told the House intelligence committee.
In 2006, Hayden said, he officially prohibited CIA operatives from using waterboarding after a Supreme Court decision forcing the administration to respect a Geneva Conventions article barring “outrages upon personal dignity” and “humiliating and degrading treatment” of U.S. detainees. He said he doubts the practice would be considered legal now.
Fratto said the tactic could not be used again unless the president obtained new advice about its legality, personally approved it and notified Congress. “I’m not aware that anyone has plans to use it in this program,” Fratto said.
He said that although lawyers had determined that waterboarding was legal when it was used in 2002 and 2003, new laws passed since then would have to be considered. “We have made clear that the law has changed. That has given greater clarity to these questions,” he said. But he declined to rule it out, saying, “We are not going to speculate on the future.”
Cheney added to the cacophony yesterday when he said of those subjected to special CIA’s interrogation methods, “It’s a good thing we had them in custody, and it’s a good thing we found out what they knew.” Speaking to the Conservative Political Action Conference in Washington about multiple counterterrorism policies Bush has approved, he added: “Would I support those same decisions again today? You’re damn right I would.”
The Bush administration’s sudden willingness to discuss waterboarding — after five years of official silence about it — follows the launch of a special U.S. attorney’s investigation into the CIA’s destruction in 2005 of interrogation videotapes that included footage of waterboarding and other harsh techniques.
Many Democrats this week have called on Mukasey to open a separate criminal investigation to focus on the CIA’s use of waterboarding and whether it violates U.S. anti-torture laws. Although Mukasey suggested in testimony last week that the tapes investigation could include that subject, his position has since appeared to have hardened.
Waterboarding, he told the House committee, “cannot possibly be the subject of . . . a Justice Department investigation” because its use was approved by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel. Mukasey made a parallel argument about the National Security Agency’s warrantless wiretapping program, saying the Justice Department could not investigate that program because it was approved at the outset by the department’s lawyers.
Larry Cox, executive director of Amnesty International USA, called for an outside investigator. “Everyone in the world knows that waterboarding is torture and illegal,” Cox said. “The U.S. government admits having done it. Yet the highest law enforcement official in the land refuses to investigate this scandal.”
In waterboarding, a prisoner generally is strapped to an inclined board with his head lower than his feet. Water is poured over his mouth and nose, which are covered with cellophane or cloth, producing a sensation of drowning. The tactic, which dates to at least the Spanish Inquisition, has been prosecuted as torture by the U.S. military and condemned by the State Department when used by despotic governments.
Waterboarding has become a signature controversy for Mukasey, a former federal judge whom the Senate nearly rejected as attorney general last fall over his refusal to say whether the tactic constituted illegal torture.
In his appearance last week before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mukasey said waterboarding would be torture if it were done to him. But he declined to say whether it was legal, saying that was irrelevant because the practice is no longer used.
Senate Majority Whip Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.), who had threatened this week to hold up the appointment of a deputy attorney general over the controversy, said yesterday he would allow the vote to proceed, but he decried the administration’s policy.
Durbin said “CIA agents have been put in jeopardy by misguided counsel from the Justice Department” on interrogation practices, and Mukasey’s “refusal to repudiate waterboarding does tremendous damage to America’s values and image in the world and places Americans at risk of being subjected to waterboarding by enemy forces.”
Staff writer Peter Baker contributed to this report.
© 2008 The Washington Post
…though the CIA no longer uses waterboarding, it could do so again with Bush’s approval, which would “depend on the circumstances,” including whether “an attack might be imminent.”
A specious argument. The last time an “attack was imminent” (hint: 9/11), the Bush Administration did nothing.
Conyers expressed his disagreement. He knows, as everyone does, that Mukasey is complicit in preventing Bush/Cheney war crimes of authorizing torture from being prosecuted. But Conyers DOES NOTHING. Mukasey needs to be arrested, obviously. By not arresting him or impeaching him, the Congress just suspended the rule of law.
Another sign that “The Great Lurch Backwards” under Dubya, Cheney, & Co. not only includes a modern redux of the Robber Baron era, but also the policing techniques of the Third World.
Anybody that advocates torture is a criminal, period, no ands, ifs or buts about it, and should be held to account for criminal action, no matter who they are. No one is above the law, no one, not even the Attorney General of the United States.
As long as Congress dithers on this whole thing, it will continue to set dangerous precedents that future administrations can use against us. We need to bombard the Congressional switchboards and demand action immediately. As Barack Obama says, we face the fierce urgency of now. We cannot afford to wait any longer. It’s now or never.
“Mukasey said Justice Department lawyers concluded that the CIA’s use of waterboarding in 2002 and 2003 was legal, and therefore the department cannot investigate whether a crime had occurred.”
“That would mean that the same department that authorized the program would now consider prosecuting somebody who followed that advice,” he said.”
Have Americans heard of logic? It’s an old fashioned concept but consider this following hypothetical scenario.
“Mukasey said Justice Department lawyers concluded that the CIA’s use of mass-murder in 2002 and 2003 was legal, and therefore the department cannot investigate whether a crime had occurred.”
“That would mean that the same department that authorized the program would now consider prosecuting somebody who followed that advice,” he said.”
No, Mr. Mukasey, (did he get his law degree from a cereal box?) it wouldn’t.
That would mean that the department heads that authorized the program were criminally negligent.
When or if Americans decide to distance themselves from these criminals, I’m sure the world’s law faculties would be more than happy to recommend some good prosecutors.
Slick. The Justice Department authorizes criminal acts and now cannot investigate those acts because it authorized them. That pretty well closes the circle. That’s like locking up a killer and giving him the key for the lock.
Is this what Schumer and Feinstein wanted when they voted to confirm Mukasey? He was chosen to protect the criminals and that’s what he’s doing.
kathyodat
As I’ve said before, we’ll see no effort to return the Constitution and Bill of Rights to the Halls of Government by the House and Senate, nor will we see any attempt to curb the Unitary Executive. They now have eight years of legal precedent and they are just waiting to inherit bush’s criminal government to use for their own ends.
As both sides of the aisle are supported by BIG business, they will do their bidding and it will be business as usual.
If We the People don’t like it, they can always open the camps. They are just a signature away in the Unitary Executive. Blackwater is probably getting tired of potting Iraqis. They’d like to come home where the beer is better. The job’s the same.
If Mukasey says it is ok then bring a board into the committee room, strap him to the board, and ask again. If nothing else, the humiliation should get him to rethink his position.
Crimes against non-persons and other humans?
I can hardly wait for the next election when the corporate EGO sheds it’s old mask for a brand new mask.
Why is this a surprise?
The fact that Musakey is an anti-American, lying, fascist pig was known before he was nominated. Democrats nominated him anyway after caving in again to bush’s demands. There only difference between Musakey and Gonzales is the name. Until we have an attourney general that will actually do their job and cares about the Constitution this garbage will continue.
“Lawyers have determined that waterboarding was legal when it was used in 2002 and 2003.” Not according to the Geneva Convention to which the United States is a signatory. Mukasey is making a completely specious argument to let the little Torquemadas, John Yoo and Alberto Gonzales, off the hook and insure that the investigation never reaches the office of the truly evil vice-president.
No one has ever been allowed to prosecute the CIA for any of its Crimes. No one. Not ever. Deadly bunch of guys to piss off, no?
Would you want to try and prosecute a bunch of perps for whom murder is one of the least horrific things they do to humans on a daily basis and have done since Wild Bill Donovan and the OSS days? These are the guys who did MK Ultra and most likely have had similar Black Ops ever since.
If you want to get rid of these guys, you do what Hitler did to Ernst Rohm when his usefulness had ended. Give’em a medal in a private conference first. Makes’em feel good to get medals.
Then you kill them all, silence the families, bury the news coverage, incinerate the corpses, talk in the media about transfers of authority, gut the organization, and take over their files. Of course, you become them at that point. How American.
RIP
Our global, public disgrace of empire!!
We have a unitive (emperor) president who authorizes torture and launches aggressive, preemptive wars that kill millions.
We have a justice (sic) department that will not enforce laws against torture, spying, tyranny, and mass murder.
We have a presidential candidate of one of the two major parties who sings, “bomb, bomb, bomb. bomb, bomb, Iran.” [IE. a certified war nut].
We have an opposition party that will not lift a finger against this corporatist Empire which has taken over our republic and hides behind the facade of a ‘Vichy American’ phony government.
We have a vice emperor who would be thrown off the death-star by Darth Vader for being too vicious.
And the whole world is watching and now reporting on this insane and global war criminal Empire!!!
It is essential that Democratic primary voters in states still to vote, and all of the superdelegates, understand that on this issue, there is a difference between Hillary, who has advocated legal waterboarding by presidential decision, and Obama, who will end it.
In 2006 both Hillary and Bill independently expressed support for legalizing waterboarding by the President (see article linked below). Husband Bill has never retracted this. Hillary briefly retracted in Sept 2007 in a debate in New Hampshire.
“Clinton Backs Off Support for Torture” (9/27/07 [reported by Ben Smith on Politico])
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/6050.html
But on Oct. 10, 2007 Hillary “clarified” her newfound change to being against legal presidential waterboarding and other forms of “enhanced interrogation” by saying she wasn’t sure and would have to look into it further after she was President before she could say what she would do.
“Clinton was similarly vague about how she would handle special interrogation methods used by the CIA. She said that while she does not condone torture, so much has been kept secret that she would not know unlesselected what other extreme measures interrogators are using, and therefore could not say whether she would change or continue existing policies.” — Washington Post, 10/10/07
Contrast Obama, the better angel on this issue:
“I have been consistent in my strong belief that no Administration should allow the use of torture, including so-called ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ like water-boarding, head-slapping, and extreme temperatures. It’s time that we had a Department of Justice that upholds the rule of law and American values, instead of finding ways to enable the President to subvert them. No more political parsing or legal loopholes.” — Barack Obama, 10/29/07
It is essential, for the soul of America on this issue, that Obama not Clinton be the Democratic nominee. By a fortuitous coincidence, the better angel on this issue (Obama) is also the more electable. (Latest Time poll: Obama 48%, McCain 41%. Clinton 46%, McCain 46%.) I hope superdelegates leaning toward Hillary will examine their souls and reconsider.
what are they talking about? are they nuts? Waterboarding has been illegal for most of the 20th century. Since when does it serve the pleasure of this gov to decide on their own whim to use it to justify brutal torture. as we’ve said before the Bush crime family is above the law and this cabbage patch doll has no blood in his veins anyway. for schumer, Feinstein, and conyers to vote to confirm Mukasey on his promise that If it’s made illegal by congress????blah blah..it’s been illegal under international law since before WW11, and the US signed it…This is utter crap and I’m sick of listening to the Democrats capitulate and make excuses for their spineless decisions. Even John McCain has called it illegal torture ..What does it take to make these jelly fish stand up and be counted?
And Gates and Rice go right on chastising Europeans for not sending more NATO troops to fight in Afghanistan along side US troops. Who wants to be involved with an army whose Commander in Chief authorizes torture?
And what kind of “support for our troops” is it anyway to give not only the military but the entire nation the ugly reputation that the Germans have had to bear ever since Nazi Germany?
All hail King George
Why would anyone expect the Attorney General to be interested in criminal investigation when the criminal to be investigated is the guy who gave him his job?
We need that question: “Mr. Mukasey, if you were in a black ops interrogation site and held indefinitely without charge and tasered while being waterboarded, would it merely FEEL LIKE torture to you, or would it BE torture?”
i finally finish doing 4 gazillion things, take a look, BAM!! that poor boy who works for my congressassface was the door and i was the battering ram, he probably put me on speaker since they take great pleasure in torture. i lost my mind, i am out of my mind right now, i told him to tell HIM that , you know the rhetoric, it ended up with my jackheeled boot on the head of bush and the things i would like to do to cheney i was sputtering, literally spitting. i know they do not give a flying f$$k but i told him that tattered fold up paper in my back pocket is one side the Constitution, flip, THE “BILL OF RIGHTS”, from now on that is what I abide by not another thing, they can arrest my big mouthed old lady disabled veterans ass i do not listen to anyone but that piece of tattered paper. What we had, what we lost, what i demand to have back, starting @ 3:22 PM EST February 8, 2008. rlo
An important point, always ignored in these discussions, is that the Justice dept does not have the authority to determine the legality of any act. That is the role of the Judiciary branch. Justice department lawyers, like any other lawyers, can issue opinions and advice to their clients, but that does not mean those opinion are the law. Congress makes the law and the Courts rule on whether actions or failures to act violate those laws.
Is it possible to be any more ashamed of our country?
Unfortunately , when more of the citizens of this country know who Paris Hilton is before they know who the speaker of the house is, we are in big frigging trouble!!!!
Nope, they’re not “simulated drownings”.
They’re real drownings interrupti (except
for the people who drown completely).
With or without Rove, these nuts are still the masters of the deflection. The big story should be: Bush and company told over 900 LIES that have directly resulted in the senseless murder and maiming of millions of innocent Iraqis and tens of thousands of American troops –
And instead the “big” story is whether it was wrong to torture a trio of bad guys, all still living. Compared to said 900+ lies that killed and maimed millions of innocent Iraqis and tens of thousands of American troops…
The dog and pony show continues. I hope after bush and cheney leave office, that they attempt to walk around, freely amongst the people.
The American administration continues to consider it a virtue to practice sexual abstinence between rapes.
Isn’t it logical that the Justice lawyers who “approved” the practice may also be guilty- as in approving for political/loyalty/job security, and not legal reasons. In which case they are culpable of being prosecuted as well. Cut the bullshit, get an independent prosecutor (if that is possible- see chair of 911 Commission) and get to the bottom.
Is it possible to be any more ashamed of our country?
Haven’t you learned yet? Just wait a week!
“Mukasey said waterboarding would be torture if it were done to him.” Would it still be torture if the CIA did it? After all, Mukasey has also said that waterboarding is legal if done by the government because the DoJ said so…. I’m having trouble breathing now……
terryb: What makes you think they are leaving office?
Rob214: Point well taken. Let’s take IRS advice as an example. If I act on advice given by the IRS that proves to be wrong, I can be charged with tax evasion or worse by relying on that advice. But I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander if mere peons are involved.
The Lorax: I have to disagree. There is a difference. Gonzalas was a brain fart who couldn’t remember anything. Mukasey is a traitor and a wonton killer by openly supporting torture. There is a difference.
Once again I must ask, under what auspices if not the US Constitution does government claim the right to govern America? It seems to be getting clearer with every passing day, that there no longer is a legally sitting government. The executive branch is totally out of control, the congress do nothing about it, this article states that Lawyers are interpeting the law which means the judical branch of government isn’t doing their job, and finally nor are we the people.
Be afraid folks, you have no power; you our totally useless, except as cannon fodder or suppliers of such; you are to stupid to do anything more than exist; reason and thought are no longer something you pocess or process for you have no free will. You will follow and do what you are told….go along, to get along. Otherwise, the bad guys will get you, be they terrorists or, your “own” government officials.
Start to forget that nothing contained in the Constitution is illegal, because this congress has passed laws to protect you from “homegrown” terrorists too.
Stand and defend or sit back and take it? What shall it be? Is this great experiment in Democracy over, or, just severely being ‘mocked’ and attacked from within? Do we even care or see what is truly at stake, or, have we become so ‘numbed and dumbed’ from all this that we just ’space’….. living in our little safe cocoon of dreams of how it is supposed to be? How close to home will the pain have to be to awaken us? Can ‘We The People’ even consider that there must be something we can and should do, or, as for so many years past, do we simply allow all of this to remain out of our control?
Of the people, by the people, for the people that is what the government is supposed to be, but then I am a dreamer as I guess were those who framed the Constitution and all those who have fought and died for it to have a life free of oppression. You get what you put up with! Maybe there no longer comes a time in the course of Human events….. because, these events seem so inhuman
As for me I say…..Impeach and Prosecute Now all who stand against the US Constitution…..Bush & Co. Polosi and Reid and other in Congress
Surely we can start by taking to the streets in Peace, before the hedgerows or worse, the camps in submission to what has become Amerika
At his confirmation hearing Mukasey sounded rational and circumspect, and possibly honorable. Many of us put our judgment on hold, hoping beyond hope that he would turn out to be honest and capable. Now we know that all along he was nothing more than a mealy-mouthed pimp with political ambitions.
It’s ironic that when the chickens come home to roost it will be our young troops and innocent civilians abroad who are killed and tortured by muslim extremists; it won’t be the neo-cons who started this mess or their enablers like Mukasey who taught the world that torture is not so bad.
“Waterboarding is Legal, White House Says” is an article (dated 2/7/08) on the Common Dreams Headlines sidebar; about George W. Bush assertion that near-drowning torture is perfectly legal (pardon me, your majesty, I was supposed to use the euphemism “waterboarding” or “enhanced interrogation technique.”) George’s statement is a precursor to the article above about the Justice Department’s decision not to investigate the CIA’s use of this torture. Basically, they are not investigating because King George said they shouldn’t.
Looks like the name “Justice Department!” is yet another euphemism.
Watch out for the return of public hangings, euphemistically labled, “spinal cord stretching therapy.”
These people are a disgrace; they and anyone who thought they ought to be in the positions they are and are responsible for this behavior and confirmed their nominations need to be arrested, indicted and prosecuted for WRECKING other peoples’ lives and health. NO ONE HAS A RIGHT TO DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The President is a criminal, the vicepresident too. The speaker of the house is a criminal. Most congressmen are criminals too. The government is a government by criminals. That is what happens when a country has no laws ( except against the poor). If the US is to be considered a country governend by laws, these people must be sent to prison for life. Their crime is punishable by death according to US law, but life in prison would be better. I don’t agree with capiral punishment and I would like to grow old with Bush and Cheney and Pelosi in jail. I would actually enjoy that. Am I being mean?
There is also a case for treason, not just war crimes. How can a country not investigate and prosecute traitors? Many in government have betrayed the US in the interest of Israel. Why is this not an issue? It’s TREASON. Don’t we care about that?
OK, so if our troops captured by the “insurgents” experience waterboarding or other enhanced interrogation techniques THEN does it become torture?
Although the legality of waterboarding is getting all the attention right now, the fact is that any technique that causes pain is likely to lead to lies, and thus a threat to our national security. This reality needs a much bigger media profile right now. Bush and Cheney and others are lying when they say that the technique has saved lives or produced usable information, and this needs a lot of investigation and publicity. Gen. Petraeus is on record as saying that torture is not useful or reliable. Other now-retired interrogation officials have corroborated this statement in regard to actual cases of suspected Islamic terrorists that the administration has been using as so-called “proof” that torture provided useful information. If the press doesn’t dig into and expose these new lies, our republic is at great risk and the press is failing criminally in its duty.
I just waanted to say THANKS! to all the Dem Senators who helped to confirm this jerk into this position. Look what we get now. If there was ever a time for the US Senate to take its responsibilities to “Advice and Consent” a Presidential nomination, then surely the replacement at Justice for Gonzalez was a time to do it.
As usual, the Dems teamed up with the Republicans to screw the nation. Thanks Dems!
If you don’t like this, remember this man is there with the blessings and approvals of the Dems in the US Senate. 41 Senators could have filibustered his confirmation and blocked it.
By a legal sleight-of-hand, the Justice Department becomes the lightning rod for the executive. [Read: paragraph 2 & 3].
Perfect cover. Unless someone can blow holes in the JD’s
remit.
I think Richard Paine makes a very important point.
You have to understand the history of the Bill of Rights. When this Constitution was proposed, it was rejected by the citizens of the time. They had just fought a long and nasty revolution to gain their freedoms, and they were very wary about creating a strong central government (like the one they had just rejected) that might put those freedoms at risk.
The addition of the Bill of Rights was the compromise that was reached. The citizens of this nation only accepted this Constitution on the condition that the Rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights were a part of the deal. No Bill of Rights, no Constitution.
One of the key rights listed in the Bill of Rights is the prohibition on the government using “cruel and unusual” punishments.
This government is based of course on this Constitution. And knowing that the Bill of Rights was a fundamental part of the deal, and that this Constitution was not going to be accepted by the people of this nation without these protections, then what is the status of a government that does not honor and defend these rights?
It would seem that a strong case can be made that if the government does not honor the bill of rights, then the deal is broken and the government based on this constitution has no legitimacy at all.
Wow, where do I start?
Oh yeah, geesh I got distracted. First of all we have a great deal of things in common with Germany, our education AND and this is a BIG AND ELECTORAL COLLEGE.
DO you folks remember election 2000?
If you don’t let me remind you…..
Although the nationwide popular vote is calculated by official and media organizations, it does not determine the winner of the election.
This issue was revisited following the Presidential Election of 2000 when Democratic candidate Al Gore received the plurality of the national vote, but failed to win the majority of the Electoral College. Advocates of the current system have similarly set forth arguments for its advantages.
When the Constitution was written, the people were widely dispersed and isolated with limited means of transportation and communication. For this reason and because of the suspicion that the people could not be trusted to vote wisely, the vote for president was entrusted to the electors. Although the original constitutional provisions have been changed by subsequent amendments and laws, the electoral college is still part of the process. Thus, when voters cast their votes for president and vice-president, they are in actuality voting for electors. In turn, these electors vote for the president and vice-president.
The Constitution requires that each state appoint “a number of electors equal to the whole number of senators and representatives to which the state may be entitled in the Congress.” Since Massachusetts has two senators and ten representatives, it is therefore entitled to twelve electors. Although the number of electors is determined by the Constitution, each state has been delegated the right to choose the method of selecting them. United States senators and representatives and any person “holding an office of trust or profit under the United States” are prohibited from being electors by the Constitution.
http://www.sec.state.ma.us/ele/elepres/presidx.htm
That is how Bush got his foot in the door and I would bank my bottom dollar that is the plan for this upcoming election.
Sens Schumer and Feinstein join the repugs in bearing responsibility for another abomination in the dept of injustice.
Mukasey joins the list of those who must be impeached!
All of this takes place in the media fog of the presidntial horserace (and, oh i forgot, Brittney Spears.)
Waterboarding may well be a distraction, whereby everyone, including Congress gets in a huff, while much worse things are happening - not merely at the level of individuals - but collectively, and out of the public eye.
Rove and his ilk have been masters at “sleight of hand” tricks. And, say what you will, they are smart and very good at what they do. Bet the farm that those guys are still at work manipulating our attention and focus.
It is long past time for the bums to be thrown out! How long are the people inside the Beltway going to continue piddle around and do nothing? They already have a Bill of Impeachment before them (for Cheney) and should easily be able to come up with another one (enter Dennis Kucinich) for “The Shrub.” Action needs to be taken NOW! - - The nomination process for the Democratic and Republican presidential candidates is for all intents and purposes over (Obama is set to surpass Hillary), so let’s get down to the real business that needs to be settled for the good of our country and the world. To wait any longer will just provide the crooked and criminal Administration to do more damage.
“In waterboarding, a prisoner generally is strapped to an inclined board with his head lower than his feet. Water is poured over his mouth and nose, which are covered with cellophane or cloth, producing a sensation of drowning”
This little bit of disinformation, repeated countless times, has probably convinced a lot of people that waterboarding can be overcome by holding your breath until they stop pouring water on you. It gives the impression that waterboarding doesn’t involve getting water in your lungs. More accurate descriptions are floating around, but you rarely see them in the MSM.
Why on f*%^ing Earth would a progressive ever vote for a Bend-over_crat? These Bend-over_cratic, sold out bastards are the ones that helped the sleazebag Muk get confirmed. Don’t forget that when they ask for your vote with the promise of ending the war. Thanks Bend-over_crats, now go to hell.
Comarc: Are you sure? I don’t believe there was a referendum or that “the people” best referred to as the rable were consulted. Thomas Jefferson worked laboriously to convince the landowners to0 accept a bill nof rights, not for concern for the people but in the spirit of the enlightment. He was in France at the time he wrote the ammendments. He had a lot of rtrouble convincing the landowners to accept it. I don’t recall “the people” being involved. Am I wrong? I would love to be corrected.
“Vice President Cheney called it a “good thing” that the CIA was able to learn what it did from those subjected to the practice.”
Let me ask this question?
What other things has VP Cheney called good?
http://waterboarding.org/
What Waterboarding Is
Waterboarding induces panic and suffering by forcing a person to inhale water into the sinuses, pharynx, larynx, trachea, and lungs.
The head is tilted back and water is poured into the upturned mouth or nose. Eventually the subject cannot exhale more air or cough out more water, the lungs are collapsed, and the sinuses and trachea are filled with water. The subject is drowned from the inside, filling with water from the head down. The chest and lungs are kept higher than the head so that coughing draws water up and into the lungs while avoiding total suffocation. “His sufferings must be that of a man who is drowning, but cannot drown.”
Waterboarding is not:
* upright or face-down dunking: People dunked face-first in water can keep water out for as long as they can hold their breath. When one is inclined with the head back, holding one’s breath will not prevent the upper respiratory tract from filling with water.
* asphyxiation: Survivors of near-drowning experiences report that the sensation of water flooding down the larynx and trachea as they struggle to breathe is the most terrifying aspect of the experience. In waterboarding, this begins quickly, long before the onset of oxygen starvation.
* submersion: Waterboarding does not require immersion in standing water. Someone can be waterboarded with as little as a canteen or two of water.
* a simulation: Waterboarding is actually forcing large quantities of water into the pharynx, trachea, and lungs, inducing choking and gagging in the subject.
Furthermore, if we want to get all legal about it, what other sorts of things has the VP Cheney done that have been harmful for the Constitution as well as the Bill or Rights. Has he done anything specifically in this regard? I would like to know. I want a fair and open hearing.
Oh, but we all should know by now. You don’t get what you want, but sometimes you get what……what. You tell me - what do you get?
What you need? I’m not so sure about that.
This whole torture thing is a big joke. I went back and watched the Monty Python skit. They knew how to respond. In fact, many of the solutions were already found in the 60’s and 70’s and probably way before then. I hope they can be implemented.
Peace,
Ken
terryb February 8th, 2008 4:28 pm
The dog and pony show continues. I hope after bush and cheney leave office, that they attempt to walk around, freely amongst the people.
If they came to my street I’d sic my dog on’em and have my pony drag ‘em off down the road>
Fear not. Five more US troops were tortured (KIA) today in Iraq in separate attacks. Quid pro Quo.
rbnigh:
Yes, it is possible to be more ashamed of our country. Read more history. Unless you already know it very well, if you read, trust me, you’ll be more ashamed. Start with the countless violations of treaties made with the native Americans. That’t why they referred to us as having a forked tongue.
MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - The controversial interrogation technique known as waterboarding and used by the United States qualifies as torture, the U.N. human rights chief said on Friday.
“I would have no problems with describing this practice as falling under the prohibition of torture,” the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, Louise Arbour, told a news conference in Mexico City.
Arbour made her comment in response to a question about whether U.S. officials could be tried for the use of waterboarding that referred to CIA director Michael Hayden telling Congress on Tuesday his agency had used waterboarding on three detainees captured after the September 11 attacks.
Violators of the U.N. Convention against Torture should be prosecuted under the principle of ‘universal jurisdiction’ which allows countries (like Iran, Iraq and N. Korea) to try accused war criminals from other nations, Arbour said.
…and what about congressional aiding and abeting?
…and gassing Jews was perfectly legal in 1940’s Germany
ekay, Conyers did not vote to confirm Mukasy, although six Democrats joined the Republicans to confirm and five Democrats, including the four running for president, didn’t even vote.
kathyodat
“Is it possible to be any more ashamed of our country?”
Give it a few more months…
Well he wouldn’t be a good brain-dead Republican if he called for investigations. No doubt, he would get thrown out with the trash. So why does anyone expect any different from this bunch? Surely there is some constitutional way to circumvent this criminal administration and get to the bottom of the corrupt!
The corrupt Senate confirmed that shill.
What else can be said.
I counted 11 votes by Bend-over_crats that either didn’t vote or voted to confirm the dirt bag Muk. That would have been enough to stop him.
Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY: did not vote.
Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill: did not vote.
Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn: did not vote.
Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del: did not vote.
The “oposition party” lead by Obama and Clinton fail to do their jobs. There you have your “opposition party”. The Bend-over_crats sell out yet again. Enough said.
GO THIRD PARTIES!
Wexler: During hearings in the Judiciary Committee yesterday, I told Attorney General Michael Mukasey that I called for impeachment hearings because of the stonewalling and blatant abuses of the Bush Administration.
Muk responded: I will NOT enforce a contempt of Congress citation against Harriet Miers and White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten for refusing to testify before Congress.
Thank you once more white feather Bend-over_crats lead by O’Billary and Nancy (Everything is off the table except my ass) Pelosi for doing your part to install this corrupt creep Muk. Nice job.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_robert_w_080208_mpeachment_news_3a_att.htm
Question #1:
A hypothetical case: What if it was discovered that joe-average American, John Doe, was found to have water-boarded his joe-average American neighbor, Jim Smith. Would John Doe be arrested and charged with a crime?
Question #2:
If he were to be charged, why is it that he is held to a different standard than the government? Couldn’t John Doe plead that he was just following the example of the government?
I apologize if these are dumb questions. Any lawyers out there?
pleasethink;
Answer 1, yep. Even if ‘jim smith’ volunteered to be waterboarded and later decided to file charges. Not a lawyer, but know about this due to some personal interest in bdsm. Torture is torture, banned in canada and the states, assault is assault.
Question 2, I’ll answer with a question. If you know that the gov’t has assassinated someone in the past, either a political leader or civvie, and claim that you assissinated someone because the gov’t did it, do you really think you’d find a lawyer who’d want to argue the case?
Government’s have a different standard from their citizens. A citizen can’t declare war, can’t ban activities, can’t raise private armies, can’t force people to give them money… Well, they can’t do it without the help and support of their own or from a foreign gov’t anyhow.
Since Mukasey has argued that his department can’t investigate this matter, therefore any investigation (to use his logic) would have to involve an outside, special prosecutor. Is that what he wants? He is hoist on his own petard.
Mukasey’s not a lawyer but a thug. It may take awhile, but the law will have a noose on him eventually. He’s an accessory to torture, and that’s a capital offense in much of the world. A presidential pardon will avail him little, since it has no validity outside the US. Dead man walking.
This time I agree with Mukasey. The Dept. that committed the crimes can not investigate itself. Moreover, there is nothing to investigate. The perpetrators have already addmitted to committing the crimes. They lied about their torturing more than five years describing it as “Enhanced interrogation techniques,” not torture. Now that they have been exposed, they say torture is legal.
They say they will do it again (I doubt that they ever stopped) if the President say do it. That’s where the investigation should be directed…on the way to impeachment.
Anybody know how Clinton and Obama voted when this guy was nominated?
“Waterboarding, he told the House committee, “cannot possibly be the subject of . . . a Justice Department investigation” because its use was approved by the Justice Department’s Office of Legal Counsel.”
Well then, perhaps Congress should DEMAND an Independent Legal investigation of the Department of Justice which believes it has the Constitutional authority to interpret Constitutional law.
Why in hell do “we the people” have a Congress and Supreme Court on our payroll when the White House is running roughshod over these alleged co-equal branches of government?
waterboarding was illegal according to international law when it was used in interrogations.This denial of illegality to justify its use is characteristic of this administration which believes in creating its own view of reality. So even after General Hayden admitted to Congress that three detainees were water boarded ie, tortured, Bush can still insist that “we don’t torture” as if his words are the unassailable undeniable truth.
We live in a fascist state my friends. We are in deep doo doo. Anyone else feel like they are in a nightmare from which there is no waking? Shame is not a strong enough word to express the way I feel about this government–and I mean all of them. There is no opposition, and we the people stand on the sidelines screaming “Impeach” and no one is listening, and no one intends to be our representatives.
Attorney General Mukasey again exposes his embarrassingly modest skills as a thinker, claiming that he cannot legally investigate the legality of waterboarding, simply because it was judged legal by members of his Department at an earlier date. In other words:
Mistake #1: At time x, some DOJ officials (wrongly, immorally, stupidly) claim that waterboarding is legal (most likely to protect the administration from future criminal prosecution, the safety of future POWs and the moral character and international standing of the USA be damned).
Mistake #2: At time x+1, hounded by Congressional calls for an investigation, AG MuKasey wrongly, immorally, and stupidly refuses to comply out of respect for the earlier mistakes, immorality, and stupidity of DOJ officials (again, most likely in a continuing effort to protect the administration from future criminal prosecution).
Perhaps Mukasey believes that a compounded mistake (or “two wrongs”) is a kind of double negative, or “not not-correct” act?!
wish i could refuse to do my job and still not get fired.
Just don’t give me the shit that we’re a nation of laws. I rarken back to the old Hank Williams tune; “if you got the do,re,me”. The only one the law applies to is the poor working class slob who has his taxes taken out of his pay check. Or the immigrant labor who gets paid under the table, receiving indentured wages.
The system has been so demo grated by the wealthy partisans of the investment class, and their muted opponents on the other side. the only hope is for the working class and the poor to rise up and shed the chains of oppression invoked by the oppressors.
satr9prodxns February 10th, 2008 11:48 am
wish i could refuse to do my job and still not get fired.
The president “hired” Mukasey with the Senate’s approval. “We the people” could have blocked him; if, we overwhelmingly opposed him, let our Senators know before his confirmation and they followed our wishes. They can’t even agree that children’s health is more important than corporate profits. The President could fire him… fat chance because he is doing exactly what he was hired to do, obfuscate and stall until his detractors give up or his term is over. It will be interesting to see how this President renders his 11th hour pardons.
zhongman February 10th, 2008 1:24 pm
“…“We the people” could have blocked him; if, we overwhelmingly opposed him, let our Senators know…”
Sure because as we’ve seen the congress always does what the people want. For example like the war in Iraq. I’ll get right on it and write my congress person Diane Feinstein, who voted to confirm Mukasey and inform her that I am against waterboading. If we all do this perhaps we can get him unconfirmed. Good idea.
What we the people want no longer matters at all. Millions marched against the war. We elected Bend-over_crats to congress in 2006 and still the wars go on and will continue no matter what. Last time I checked bush had taken an enormous crap on the constitution and wiped his ignorant ass with it. I know writing my sold out senator is a waste of time. I will support her opponent instead. That’s one message they may hear. The message of shuffling in an unemployment line. Ah that’s bullshit too, senators are rich so they could just get another job. They can always go to work for one of the corporations they’ve been sleeping with.
Making it legal at any time for waterboarding or any semblance of tortue has been illegal worldwide. So what will our Justice Dept. say when our American troops have been captured and tortured? Allowing any kind of torture of captured troops is illegal according to the Geneva Convention which Bush, the fool, has ignored. And this so called attorney general needs to be recalled. It’s time for the American public to take matters into their own hands because Congress is still hiding is cowardly head in the sand.
With all due respect Mr. Conyers; I think you just said, “Yassuh, Boss!” I’m sorry to see it. It makes me wonder what threat you live under.
tailcrap February 10th, 2008 2:07 pm
nice sarcasm. However, if you read my post again maybe you’ll see that I was basically saying the same thing as you in your diatribe. I was addressing the confirmation in the past tense, not that we could now fire him. And yes, if enough people opposed Mukasey and told their Senator, they might listen. As a matter of fact I don’t think there is a process of making someone “unconfirmed” as you suggest. (do you see what I did there?) And that was my point, only the President can get rid of him, but why would he?
Sorry, I thought I misread your post. Just joking about unconfirming. I agree bush would never get rid of his boy.