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TechnoratiBailout Outrage Races Across the Web
The Internet is flooded with angst about Treasury Secretary Paulson's proposed $700 billion bailout—and inspiring old-fashioned street protests
Arun Gupta was enraged as he learned the details of Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's plan to fix the U.S. banking system with $700 billion in taxpayer funds. The 43-year-old copy editor and freelance journalist, who publishes his own alternative newspaper, The Indypendent, needed to channel his angst but couldn't find a live protest to attend. So on Sept. 22, he sent an e-mail to some politically active friends in New York. Within days, they'd planned a protest against the bailout in New York and at 80 other locations in the U.S. on Sept. 25.
"I couldn't sit back while this plan gets rammed through Congress," says Gupta. "We live in a digital world, but change has to happen in an analog world. We married the two-the Internet helped us organize like wildfire." Gupta, now working with the online organization truemajority.org, says he expects hundreds and possibly a thousand protesters to converge at the protest near Wall Street. Protesters plan to build a pile of "citizen junk" that the government should also purchase in front of the iconic bull sculpture.
Much of the populist outrage against the bailout is building on the Internet, in blog posts, and Web sites. And not all of the posts are created by left-wingers like Gupta. The Internet is now swirling with petitions, debates bordering on rants, and biting satire about Paulson's plan and its potential consequences. The calls to arms come from across the political spectrum-from right-wing enemies of taxes to libertarians and left-wing progressives. They demand that Congress amend, scale back, or scrap the plan altogether.
Online Rage
The anger fueled much of the political theater in Washington this week. Yet Democrat and Republican lawmakers are working behind the scenes to bat out a deal (BusinessWeek.com, 9/24/08) with Paulson and the Bush Administration.
A lot of the online rage is channeled in the form of signatures on petitions and electronic letters to members of Congress. Senator Bernie Sanders (Independent-Vt.) is circulating a popular one on the left-wing blog Huffington Post. The 1.9-million member Service Employees International Union is also circulating a sign-on letter to Congress that reads in part: "No deal. No blank check." StopTheHousingBailout.com reasons: "A bailout tells responsible Americans that they are suckers."
The anger is coming from right-leaning groups as well. The National Taxpayers Union's "No More Bailouts!" petition reads: "Bailouts that keep mismanaged organizations afloat delay natural corrections to unsound business practices....Enough is enough. No more bailouts. Not with my tax dollars."
The conservative site townhall.com features a similar petition. Right-wing blogger Patrick Ruffini, meanwhile, urges Republicans to vote against the bailout, since "God Himself couldn't have given rank-and-file Republicans a better opportunity to create political space between themselves and the Administration."
"Other People's Financial Excesses"
Then there are the more humble, makeshift calls to action, like a Web site called Tax Payers Against a Wall Street and Mortgage Bailout Petition, set up by a man named Thomas Roach. Readers can sign on to a letter to President George W. Bush and others politely asking, "Please do not support the efforts to bail out mortgage holders and mortgage lenders with my tax dollars. As a responsible citizen, I do not believe it is right for you to ask me to pay for other peoples' financial excesses."
The Project on Government Oversight and the National Taxpayers Union are criticizing Paulson's proposal to prevent any judicial or legislative review of his bailout moves. An open-government group called the Sunlight Foundation posted the full text of Paulson's proposal and Senator Christopher J. Dodd's (D-Conn.) counter-proposal on PublicMarkup.org, where readers can read and comment on each.
Other online manifestos are less earnest. A letter fashioned after the iconic Nigerian hoax e-mail is circulating in in-boxes. "I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America," the letter from "Paulson" reads. "My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.…We need a blank check.…Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA, and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov."
Meanwhile, on a site whose name defies publication, if not linking, users are posting pictures of their personal junk next to the tagline, "Hey Washington, can you buy my bad investments, too?" The total asking price of the "pile" submitted by users—which includes reading glasses and a book called The Boys and Their Mama for a combined $12,254.90, and $24,000 in student loans for art school—is approaching $500 billion.
Opposition on Social Networks
Not surprisingly, bailout critics are also having their say on social networking Web sites. There are almost 300 members in the Facebook group "Just Say No to the Government Bailout." The anti-tax group Taxfreesociety.com is also "organizing moral opposition" to the bailout through its new Facebook group, "Stop the Bailouts!" The group administrator says the purpose is "to utilize the latest social networking tools" to voice opposition.
Then, of course, there's YouTube. Bailout-related videos include straightforward clips of Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke calling on Congress for the bailout. Others, however, include rants by amateur newspeople, including a group called the Young Turks. The news-style segment, "This Is How The Bail Out Will Screw You," has had more than 24,000 page views.
Herbst is a reporter for BusinessWeek.com in New York.
152 Comments so far
Show AllWhere's the Money?
We gave the banks $700 billion of our taxpayer dollars. Now they decline to tell us where it went. We deserve transparency and accountability. We've been HAD!
But we can get the banks' attention. Suppose 500,000 taxpayers sent a certified letter to their credit card holders stating:
"If, by March 1, 2009, you have not disclosed what you did with your bailout money, I will cease to make payments on my credit card. As soon as you disclose what you did with my tax money (your bailout share), I will resume making payments on my credit card. Also, if you put late-pay and increased interest charges on my account while I am waiting for your bailout disclosure, I will fight you in small claims court."
Why not use financial civil disobedience? Why let the big banks rob us and decline to tell us what they did with our money?
Carol
I just wish that all of these people were reading their Bible and all of this would have been avoided and I mean all of it but----.
I am just as furious as everyone else and that is a fact. We have had to go into our meeger savings to pay our mortgage so I know what a lot of people are going through.
Unfortunately we have to be able to fix this mess and all of us are going to pay for this mess so we have to sit back and wait to see what happens. There is an old saying you always have to go through a black whole to come out the otherside where the light is and everyone knows that is the way it is.
MAY GOD BLESS US AND KEEP SAFE FROM HARM NOW AND FOREVER AND WE KNOW HE WILL!!!
Peace
Yes we are there
We just got f$cked before being kissed
From "No Wall Street Bailout!"
Last week, President Bush put a gun to the head of the economy, and demanded a $700 billion ransom, threatening that if he didn’t get the money, he would kill the economy. The Democrats responded with a reasonable plan, the Republicans including McCain, are refusing to pay any ransom at all. In fact, they are demanding to make the situation even worse, by asking for even further de-regulation and corporate tax breaks. The stage is set for collapse. Let us hope, in this critical moment, that wisdom and pragmatism prevail.
Do The World A Favor And Retire!
Green Retirement Planning
Well now, if the republicans continue to show some backbone and they manage kill off this bail out, I may have to do something I thought I'd NEVER, EVER do, vote republican.
The dems are falling all over themselves to get this thing passed.
Shows just how tied they are and what they'll do to sellout the People.
The irony.
A strange turn of events.
Until that happens, I'll continue to support Nader.
Stress levels are through the roof on this one!
http://www.boppoll.com
Can't wait to be living in an Obama Nation!
who is the winner of this bailout to nowhere? OK it keeps foreign investors happy and that is the only way capitalism keeps alive. If the rest of the world said no way and stopped investing in the US ( that more are taking a hard look at) the US stock market crashes. This is nothing but a serverance package for the top CEO's and bankers before that happens. Most I feel should be locked up. I am at a point I have lost all faith in the USA.
Shock Doctrine
Shock Doctrine
Shock Doctrine
This crisis is manufactured
Agree wc7.....
As I said before how does this stock market crash affect you? Did the price of gas or food jump? NO, how about fixing your car or take a weekend trip some place ? NO Do you still have a bank account and your money the last time you looked is still there? YES Then what is all the fuss about? In a free capitalism market stocks rise and fall so this is a low point and with time it will correct itself with no bailout.
It is going to take a lot more than just rage and anger to turn this disgrace around. The classical 'there is nothing we can do about it' does more harm than good.
Some Americans might wonder if the demands for $700 billion, "or else," sound a bit like blackmail.
It is good to see the FBI getting involved.
A "dark humor" perspective on these elements is in the article:
"Give up Your Cash, or You'll Lose it in a Crash"
PopulistAmerica.com
Sept. 26, 2008
http://www.populistamerica.com/give_up_your_cash_or_youll_lose_it_in_a_crash
Alan MacDonald
This morning at 9:35 idiot Bush is going to stand before the tsuanami of the market's crash and shout, "Stop".
Hopefully, what will happen to this idiot boy Emperor (and particularly the 'corporate financial Empire' standing behind him and the thin facade of their two-party, 'Vichy' fascist-fronting charade of a government) will be predictable:
That this 'corporatist Empire' will collapse in the wave of a continued American Revolution to excise the cancer of Empire from our entire society, and finally replace it with an indivisible political AND economic democracy of self-governance 'by the people' --- as our fore-fathers did to the poltical and economic tyranny of the British Empire.
The wave of renewed democracy will flood out this phony corporatist Empire!!
This morning I heard on NPR that Paulson got down on one knee and begged the Democrats to not "blow up" the bail out plan. The Democrats responded that they were not the obstacle to the wholesale ripping off of taxpayers. It was obstinate Republicans in the house that are ideologically opposed to bailing them out because they believe in the free market.
Can you imagine that? The day has come when the "opposition party" are the Republicans and the Republicans are actually doing something the people want; opposing Bush and the bailout. Not that I trust them either.
Now I am also not suggesting the Republican party is worth a bucket of crap but it is telling how much alike the two parties are alike. Bush has a plan to enrich the richest and corruptest people in America and the Democrats are immediately on board. Obama is already on board.
The Democrats are urging the House Republicans to get on board with Bush's plan. That is very telling, think about for a minute DPAs, before you start your "Republican troll" faux arguments. Use your heads.
Ric Abreu,
This is what I read today on World Socialist Web Site as to why Republicans made a show of opposing the bailout:
“This has opened the door for McCain and right-wing House Republicans to posture as opponents of Wall Street and identify themselves with massive popular opposition to the bailout. The faction of House Republicans who have denounced the measure represents right-wing libertarian elements within the party who identify social spending and government intervention in the capitalist “free market” with what they consider the ultimate evil—socialism. They base themselves on appeals primarily to middle class layers, utilizing anti-tax and nationalist demagogy as their stock in trade.
In opposing the bailout, they are, moreover, responding to bitter opposition to the windfall for Wall Street among their constituents.”
I would appreciate if anyone would let me know the technique for providing a link. Thanks already.
Thanks, you beat me to it. I read wsws.org almost every night. The analysis sounds right. To post a link simply copy it and paste it into your post. Like this:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/sep2008/bail-s26.shtml
Obama, for his part, has made the principal task of his campaign assuring Wall Street of his support for the bailout and his overall reliability as a defender of the interests of the financial elite.
This has opened the door for McCain and right-wing House Republicans to posture as opponents of Wall Street and identify themselves with massive popular opposition to the bailout. The faction of House Republicans who have denounced the measure represents right-wing libertarian elements within the party who identify social spending and government intervention in the capitalist “free market” with what they consider the ultimate evil—socialism. They base themselves on appeals primarily to middle class layers, utilizing anti-tax and nationalist demagogy as their stock in trade.
One simple way is to type the full web address in your comments. Then when you post it, it turns into a link.
Joe
I too am having a hard time understanding these machinations. Lots of pols in both parties are heavily invested in the very companies that are being fed our tax money. I get Nancy Pelosi and Martha Stewart mixed up sometimes.
So until someone weighs in with good information and wisdom on Democracy Now, here are my guesses:
1. Republicans are blocking a deal to justify McCain punking out of tonight's debate.
2. Some Republicans wanted the bailout in its pure unconditional wealth-transfer form and are afraid that any conditions whatsoever could lead to shining a light on Wall Street practices that could trigger regulation.
3. Some are truly against such radical socialism, even for the rich. They prefer working within the normal advantageous legal system ala Mack the Knife.
4. They want a say in who gets what. Paulson has too much power.
5. They want the Democrats to pass the plan without them and then let them take the fallout when the economy inevitably worsens.
6. They want to pose as populists, as mentioned in other posts.
Joe
How long before people get tired of being used and abuse by this
system? I don't care what economic or social system takes over. It
can't ignore predatory policies or individuals, If you have to do
everything on sneak, you f@@k your daddy every week.
Only cowards don't understand the years of harsh policies, ecomomic
and social, that has provoked decent, but flawed people toward anger,
frustration, and now rage. If these unrepentant wall street mother/father
f@@kers aren't charged in the same fasion as we poor folks would be for
the sightest infraction, more hell is coming.
When you are right, you can do anything you want to your attacker, as
long as it is one step up in proportionality.
I agree that in general the wrong people are in jail. We need new laws about financial practices that are harmful to the public and we need to enforce those laws.
Joe
PaulMS:
Well said this is the biggest theft in American history, no world history?
It should be called THE BAILOUT TO NOWHERE.
SINCE THIS ALL STARTED SEVERAL MONTHS AGO HAS IT AFFECTED YOU AT ALL?
STOP AND THINK FOR A MINUTE
Gas is still forsale, food in the stores, household goods, car repairs, you can still drive to the lake with the family etc etc. So the only people it has affected are greedy bankers and investors who should be ARRESTED for selling a mortage to people who should have NEVER got one in the first place. Plus for not taking care of the people who deposited their savings into these institutions. The Gov is trying to reward these people. This is no different than ENRON, greed and profits
PHONE, WRITE YOUR ELECTED PEOPLE IN YOUR STATE AND TELL THEM NOT TO SUPPORT THE SO CALLED BAIL OUT THAT IS NOTHING MORE THAN A REWARD FOR DOING A BAD JOB.
I am dumb, and I don’t understand. If the present turmoil in the financial and banking sector is primarily due to sub-prime mortgages, then why doesn’t the government do this: Reduce the price of the houses in question by one-third, making it affordable for house owners to pay their monthly installment to the banks. This way, the government will pay only one-third of the bailout, and the bailout has gone to main street, rather than Wall Street.
I suppose you know that this bailout was never about helping homeowners. : )
Joe
Tonight I even heard one side float the idea of privatizing with private investors. Guess who? Is it private banks within the FED, who can leverage the buyout at $30 thousand per million of banknotes from the FED itself? Is this a consolidation by the FED banks through hostile takeover to eliminate the competition? Will they own 80%, and will the FED flood the market with cash (printed notes) that devalues everyone else's dollars? Where is transparency & accountability from the FED? Oh, that's right, they won't allow regulation or oversight. Whah?
Then we have the other side of the coin, the Treasury Sec. Paulson, former top exec of one of the entities crying broke, who paid him at least $523,000,000 (that's right over a half BILLION) for working for them. Did he really stop in their employ? How do we know? The man hasn't even explained where the $700 billion (some say up to $1.5 Trillion) will be spent, or how the figure was arrived at---has he?
Letterman had it correct last night when he said something smells.
Let’s see, hmmm?
We have an agency controlling our money supply that won’t reveal it’s books despite having Federal in it’s title, run by one of the two men asking the American taxpayer for a HUGE loan. He also has the power to raise/lower interest rates, AND control how much money is put in circulation, inflating or deflating the dollar’s worth.
We also have a Secretary of the Treasury, with possible conflict of interest issues because of recent employ by a firm standing to gain from this massive loan, AND he is boss over the US Mint that prints the banknotes. He has a plan to use $700+ billion, to buy the bad debts from not only the US, but overseas banks as well, BUT with Section 8 in the bill just says, “Trust me & just write the check. Leave it blank, I’ll fill it in later.”, AND you can’t look over my shoulder to keep me from corruption or grievous mistakes.
Again: Letterman had it correct last night when he said something smells.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OTM8Y3a5zQ How This Bailout Will Screw You-The Young Turks
Hi & Thank you __ P A U L _ M A G I L L _ S M I T H ___
The Young Turks are great !!
.
with Half a quadrillion of "_d.e.r.i.v.a.t.i.v.e_ financials" being traded in a year
_____ $ 516 _ trillion ___ which are based upon what ( smoke & mirrors ) ?
N.O.T.I.C.E. _ that the total of all the world's GNPs all together is _o.n.l.y_
____ $ 75 _ trillion ___ which ~ 50% related to wicked warmongering profiteering throttling humankind
Having obscenely high salaries and complicit corruption of the largest most illegal cartel ever
.
____ B A N K S T E R I S M __ = __ G A N G S T E R I S M ____
.
So of course the leader of this CorpoRAPE _M_A_F_I_A_ has made half a billion in salary ?
This is peanuts compared to what they've planned to still come with the SECOND FOOTFALL
____ $ 999.99999999998 billion ( I took out my 2 cents worth ) is only the initial EXTORTION PAYMENT to the KIDNAPERS of our ECONOMY
Namaste
____ T _ I _ M _ E ____ A _ N _ A _ L _ O _ G _ Y _
____ 1 million seconds = two weeks
____ 1 billion seconds = 33 years
____ ( most people only life 2 billion or so seconds )
____ 1 trillion seconds = 33,000 year
____ ( the next ice age will have started by then )
____ 1 quadrillion seconds = 33 million years
____ ( enough time for a RE_evolution of intelligent LIFE to occur )
This 'crisis' is remarkable and exciting. The NYT has cut off comments to one article on today's activities in Washington, financial comments to articles on the 'bailout' are numerous, and on Common Dreams the commentary is prolix. And I am loving it!
But isn't it interesting: we have two wars, thousands killed, and who cares? But hit people in their pocketbooks, where they really exist in this world, and I do mean the world as the commentary comes far and wide on this monetary crisis, and look at the response!
I read an article about and Indian executive who fired some workers or some such thing about a plant being closed on that new car they want to build, and thousands took to the streets. They then went to the exec's house, pulled him out and beat the crap out of him! Now that is democracy in action!
Well, America, Wake up! You talk about taking back your government: Are you afraid enough yet?
gikady
Amid GOP revolt, bailout deal breaks down
The 'Bray of Pigs' with or without lipstick
John McCain and the Keating Five
http://www.wilypython.net/John%20McCain%20and%20the%20Keating%20Five.asp
I got an idea. How bout if the first billion of the 700 billion comes straight out of the pockets of guys like Paulson who not only made this crisis, but made millions while doing so?
Congressional and Senate democrats - what a bunch of losers. They must be wearing out the knees of their pants as the crawl around the floor in front of the worst administration in history. It’s Iraq funding all over again; first $300 billion, now $700 billion, later whatever. As with the war and homeland security, the administration will now have more funds to pass out to their friends. Urgency will be the mantra to prevent any need for a competitive bidding process for services that maybe required. Don’t expect any real accountability or legal responsibility by this administration, it wasn’t there in the past
The Democrats are conspirators; they have assisted the Republicans for years in passing laws eliminating oversight and allowing financial institutions and corporations to mine the wealth of America’s middle and lower classes. Mining of the equity in homes was only a more recent event. Increasing the national debt to bail out these same institutions and corporations is simply the mining of the future wealth of Americans. Shifting more wealth upward simply increase the tremendous imbalance in the whole system. The wealth and purchasing power of the majority American’s is now simply insufficient to sustain the system.
Worst of all, a bail out would assist the extremely fundamental right of our country to achieve their goals of restricting, by debt, the financial capability of all levels of government to provide the social well being of it citizens or to fund basic necessary infrastructure in favor of a theoretical model of privatization. A model that has never worked any place in the world as it further accelerates the redistribution of wealth to the few, creating poverty for the majority, leading to social unrest and the loss of democracy.
Sad part is the crooks enineering this fiasco are the same who have intentionally crashed the market/industry for over 100 years now (including an eerily similar ploy in 1929). I don't believe this is a bailout so much as a banking consolidation, and too rushed hostile takeover.
I wrote to Pelosi: "What's the rush? Slow down and make sure you get it right before you pass a bail out of -- who exactly? It's not clear to me as a taxpayer who gets to feed at this $7B trough. The Treasury Secretary and his president are both lame ducks. Any resolution of this "crisis" is going to last decades longer than their terms. Do your due diligence and make sure the ripple effects and downsides are considered. "Measure twice, cut once." It's good advice for building houses; it's good advice for fixing what ails the economy."
Also sent it to Barney Frank. I'm amazed that it is the conservative Republican members of congress who are trying to slow the rush to this bail out. They have my gratitude. And I am curious why the Democratic members and leadership seem to be in such a hurry to get this through. Are they reacting out of fear? Are they simply afraid that they will be pounded for not "doing something (anything)?" They should only be concerned that they do the right thing.
For educational purposes only:
If PawPaw Paulson picked a peck o' people's pockets, how many people's pockets could PawPaw Paulson pick?
(Suggested answer: ALL of them!)
Opal
Call Congress. Again and again. Tell them: not so fast, slow down, don't be stampeded. There's absolutely no reason to trust the Bush and Co. assessment of the financial situation. There are many thoughtful people, economists and others, who have excellent ideas about how to address the situation wihtout turning over $700 billion to the corporate crooks.
Opal: You're assuming that it would make a difference. Might I remind you of the Iraq invasion and Impeachment? Calls, letters, faxes, letters to the editor FLEW in that direction. Result?
Pretty evident....
"Crack open a cynic and you will find an angry idealist!"
OK if all you people are so pissed off then not one of you vote for Obama or McCain. Put you money where your mouth is for change. Vote for Ron Paul or Nader but together pick one person and do it.
HP September 25th, 2008 8:18 pm
"Vote for Ron Paul or Nader but together pick one person and do it."
Ron Paul isn't running
Lobo Gris
Sorry slip up there. Well just get together and pick somebody. It would be interesting to see how Diebold handles the sudden rush a votes for a person other McCain or Obama
HP September 25th, 2008 8:52 pm
"Well just get together and pick somebody."
I agree that that would be the best idea. If everyone could pick just one, that one would probably get enough precentage of the vote to qualify for matching funds, maybe more press coverage and possibly be able to demand entrance in the presidential debates, all in the next election cycle of course.
But, trying to get all progessives to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats, it probably just isn't going to happen.
Lobo Gris
Lobo Gris:
"But, trying to get all progressives to agree on anything is like trying to herd cats, it probably just isn't going to happen."
Yeah, like my shot at trying to get a write-in for Kucinich started.
UNITING is the only thing that could make an impact, whether it be elections, gas boycotts, TAX RESISTANCE, media boycotts, corporate boycotts, etc. It seems that is the sure-fire way to make an impact, BUT....
"Crack open a cynic and you will find an angry idealist!"
what do you think about my idea of a revolt at not paying back any student loans? i figure if i bust my ass paying those thousands back, chances are i'll have paid back more than enough in interest alone and on top of what they are about to take.... and write a blank check to bush. the govt. is corrupt and certainly does NOT need any more of my hard-earned money. let the crooks pay it all back because i sure as hell won't.
Well it is nice to see America destroy itself and with any luck the rest of the world stop investing in America. It is the only way to stop the war machine. To bad We The People don't get a say in how politicians should represent those who voted them into power.
The decision was made today on this welfare for the wealthy so the little children could go home and play and campaign for their "jobs" (no longer service). No matter what it is, it will affect "We The People" the hardest. So...I urge you ALL to join Cindy Sheehan and me and STOP PAYING TAXES!!!
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/36310
"Crack open a cynic and you will find an angry idealist!"
good idea! and on top of that, don't bother paying off any student loans that you may owe if they're going to bail out these financial institutions at our expense! wtf, it's just criminal what the democrats and republicans are about to let bush do. we all need a REVOLT of some sort.
CynicalSam September 25th, 2008 7:27 pm
"The decision was made today on this welfare for the wealthy so the little children could go home and play and campaign for their "jobs" (no longer service)."
If you are talking about the 700 billion dollar bailout it is stalled in Congress on two issues.
Bush has agreed to an oversight board that will have veto authority over Paulson's decisions on handing out the money, but he is demanding that the board consist only of Bush cronys which means no oversight at all
Bush claims the Government has no authority to regulate CEO and executive compensation.
Nothing surprising here. I will be more surprised if the Democrats end up holding out for at least that much.
Lobo Gris
What is really significant is the outrage of the people across parties lines. You know, Nader could pull this off. Hope to see him debate Obama Friday night. Maybe McCain will show but it will be too late and look so phony. Nader had my vote before this planned robbery by Wall Street. Nader still has 40 days to collect the people's support.
Nanoo September 25th, 2008 7:18 pm
"You know, Nader could pull this off."
It's still a real longshot but a shot :-)
Lobo Gris
This sums it up as far as I'm concerned.
THOMAS JEFFERSON
I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
Thomas Jefferson
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.
Thomas Jefferson
On every unauthoritative exercise of power by the legislature, the people must rise in rebellion or their silence be construed into a surrender of that power to them?
Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, Query 12, 1782
The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abigail Adams, February 22, 1787
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Stephens Smith, November 13, 1787
And don't forget this very important one, Stone:
Thomas Jefferson said, "If the America people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their currencies, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all their prosperity until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
Thanks, Tom, and informed people agree the FED must be dismantled if we ever expect eliminate the national debt completely.
This is truely an outrage!
The bailout proposal says:
"...may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency."
The same people who created this mess because of deregulation and lack of congressional oversight, want to have permission to act outside the law again (Like everything this fascist Bush Regime does!)
It's amazing that ten years ago we had hundreds of billion dollars of surplus in the treasury while Clinton was president - so the Republicans had all the time and $$ to impeach him, but now after the Bush Regime has run the country into the ground with an unprecidented deficit - Congress is saying that impeachment is off the table - Too time consuming and expensive.
So basically - if a President does his "job", he opens himself up to politically motivated impeachment, but if the President is a total criminal and incompetent - Impeachment is "off the table" because we can't afford it - too many crises (created by Bush of course!) to deal with.
The irony of politics in Amerika!
There is nothing more to say here.
too little too late. the fat is in the fire and the rich have won again. the bailout will be reality by the end of the week.
"Kill the ones who eat you, and eat the ones you kill."
Hunter S. Thompson
It is 3:08 PDT,
Now you know the extent you are represented, all 300 million losers.
In the end, the bail out will go down, and it will be a bipartisan deal.
Basically, Congress will be flipping you the bird as they sell you out. So what else is new.
If people can not see through the obvious financial terrorism, they deserve what they get. Those in Wall Street, Congress and The Fed/Treasury should be rounded up and put in GITMO and their wealth seized by the government, and we should invade the Cayman islands and do the same there.
But anyways, you got a choice of 2 crooks for President, one will win. But at least you can make sure any of your Congressman who vote for the sell out does not get your vote. Just let their office know, you vote for this, you will vote for Mickey Mouse before giving them your vote. And if they have an opponent, make sure you vote for them.
MiMiCcS September 25th, 2008 6:09 pm
"But anyways, you got a choice of 2 crooks for President, one will win. But at least you can make sure any of your Congressman who vote for the sell out does not get your vote. Just let their office know, you vote for this, you will vote for Mickey Mouse before giving them your vote. And if they have an opponent, make sure you vote for them."
Your Congressman will also probably win but that doesn't mean you have to vote for him/her just as you don't have to vote for one of the two crooks even though one of them will probably win. You can vote for Nader, McKinney, or Bob Barr. They may not win but if they get enough percentage of the vote in the next election cycle they may qualify for matching funds, get more press coverage, and maybe have to be included in the presidential debates.
Lobo Gris
I agree. While you go in to vote against your Congressman that voted for this, vote 3rd party for President. The 2 party system has just become a mechanism to eliminate choice via a rigged primary system with bogus polls to achieve the desired consensus, and nominee.
$700 billion divided by $200 thousand (median home price) would pay off 3,500,000 houses in their entirety. So here's my solution: use the $700 billion to assist distressed homeowners to make their mortgage payments. Wouldn't this solve the problem for everyone, rather than just a bunch of Paulson's Wall Street buddies?
Good idea. And I agree with other comments about our lack of consciouness of how our median standard of living compares with others around the world (and even within USA). We can be clueless. But the "arrogance" of someone who wants a roof over his / her head cannot compare with the arrogance of the financiers who will get this money. Naturally I totally agree with the need for every human being on earth to have shelter. Homes and food for everyone are prevented by the excesses of high financiers and the masters of war who destroy homes and prevent homes from being built much more so than the basic homeowner.
Joe
Do you think that Americans have some kind of birthright to own a house???
Let alone the fact that this real estate bubble caused a lot of damage to the environment, since trees kept being chopped all over America to make room for yet another round of tasteless Wannabe-McMansions.
Since it ain't easy to buy a house in the rest of the world, why should Americans be singled out to own homes they can't afford??? Do you think any of us in the rest of the world would have been able to buy houses on those terms??? But we around the world are going to foot the bill eventually?
Americans are being punished right now for their proverbial greed. And that's fine with me and it's fine with most people outside the US of A. So stop whining.
My wife and I were discussing American arrogance earlier today. We (speaking as
an American) think we are the greatest people living in the greatest Nation in the world. Why; I don't have the answer to that. Maybe because many of us have never visited another country. We have the right to use the most oil, (so we steal it from other countries in the ME or South America) we have the right to have nuclear weapons (even if we are the only country to have used one on another country) but get our drawers all in a wad if someone else wants one. We attack not one, but two countries, and get all upset when Russia attacks Georgia. I have to agree with
your post. We deserve everything that is happening here. We elected a President with a two digit IQ, he appointed his cronies to run things, they loaned money to people who can't afford a McMansion but wanted one anyway, and now all of us are going to pay for the greed. Personally it really pisses me off because I didn't vote for George, I don't live in a McMansion, and my 401K (which wasn't much) took a hit because of these greedy bastards. I'd like to see some of the SOB's jumping out windows like some did in 1929. But we aren't going to let that happen. We're going to give the greedy bastards some more money (that we don't have) so they
can pay their CEO's 245 times what an employee earns. Isn't America the greatest place in the world to be rich?
Most people around the world knew that this was insane. But nobody did anything about it, and whoever questioned it was habitually called some kind of Marxist dinosaur.
Well, I've got news for you: Marx proved to have been right in his analysis of Capitalism. The neocons proved to be wrong.
My suggestion would be: All those billion-dollar-profiteers of this pyramid game aka investment banking with derivatives ought to be rounded up, put on trial for crimes against society and ALL their assets ought to be confiscated to pay for the damage.
Too radical? Come on! A country where many federal states have no qualms about sentencing their most underprivileged citizens to death on often shady grounds is surely able to pull off this one!!
And that would - for a loooong time - put an end to all this incredible greed. Make them draw pictures of their Lear-Jets in jail for the rest of their lives.
Solution to the Economy's Demise is CAPITALIST Responsibility
There must NOT BE ANY MORE FREE MONEY GIVE AWAYS to capitalists by the United States Congress. The United States government needs to make loans to those that are looking for a government bailout on the basis of good, sound, capital assets; the capital assets of the means of production and distribution, NOT by bogus and worthless mortgage and credit card securities, and hold the borrowers and their companies personally responsible for repayment of their loans, so that if they do not pay, or are slow to pay, they are hounded by bill collectors and credit reporting agencies just the same as consumers are, until they either pay or their collateral is foreclosed upon and sold at public auction. The capital assets of the borrowers, the means of production and distribution, must be the peoples security that the money borrowed is paid back, and the money must be paid back with interest, whether or not it takes 20 or more years to repay. This is the means of introducing responsibility into capitalism, and must be done, so that the cycle of capitalistic greed at the expense of the people can be broken --- broken by capitalist responsibility for the financial consequences of capitalist actions.
Money that is borrowed should be borrowed on the basis of sound, solid capital assets and must be used by the borrowers to buy back their own worthless mortgage and credit card securities. This way the capitalists bail themselves out responsibly with their own capital assets and credit based upon those capital assets; and in this manner the economy can be kept from collapsing by 20 to 50 year loans against capital assets as a consequence of irresponsible behavior, that will no doubt be realized by the time the loans are paid in full, without further burdening the people.
Solution to the Economy's Demise is CAPITALIST Responsibility
There must NOT BE ANY MORE FREE MONEY GIVE AWAYS to capitalists by the United States Congress. The United States government needs to make loans to those that are looking for a government bailout on the basis of good, sound, capital assets; the capital assets of the means of production and distribution, NOT by bogus and worthless mortgage and credit card securities, and hold the borrowers and their companies personally responsible for repayment of their loans, so that if they do not pay, or are slow to pay, they are hounded by bill collectors and credit reporting agencies just the same as consumers are, until they either pay or their collateral is foreclosed upon and sold at public auction. The capital assets of the borrowers, the means of production and distribution, must be the peoples security that the money borrowed is paid back, and the money must be paid back with interest, whether or not it takes 20 or more years to repay. This is the means of introducing responsibility into capitalism, and must be done, so that the cycle of capitalistic greed at the expense of the people can be broken --- broken by capitalist responsibility for the financial consequences of capitalist actions.
Money that is borrowed should be borrowed on the basis of sound, solid capital assets and must be used by the borrowers to buy back their own worthless mortgage and credit card securities. This way the capitalists bail themselves out responsibly with their own capital assets and credit based upon those capital assets; and in this manner the economy can be kept from collapsing by 20 to 50 year loans against capital assets as a consequence of irresponsible behavior, that will no doubt be realized by the time the loans are paid in full, without further burdening the people.
We have the perfect tool for Direct Democracy. It is called open forum and it just needs to be designed right, it won't not be difficult to form. I can add my part to it, I propose the forum produces a paper trail which can be checked and questioned in the Congressional Building.
Let's evolve this broken tyrrany of pseudodemocracy into what our government was meant to be, By the People, For the People.
Stop robbing us.
Capitalism is dead.
It's true that opposition is universal - unless one is a bankster. Even the odious Glenn Beck is opposed! http://www.youtube.com/v/ZnJlMssUoW4
Dave
http://daveeriqat.wordpress.com/
LETTERMAN SLAMS MCCAIN
http://www.wilypython.net/Lettermans%20Slams%20McCain.asp
Congress needs to demand public hearings RIGHT AWAY with all of the criminal bosses, and capo di tutti capo Greenspan, and force them to explain how they stole all the loot, why they stole all the loot, and where the f**k did they hide all the loot.
Remember when Congress had the big tobacco boys all embarrassingly state that they do not believe cigs cause cancer? And when they had the big energy boys all embarrassingly claim that their history-making profits were actually not all that large?
Frannie, Freddie, Bear, Lehman, Merrill, Countrywide, IndyMac and the other 12 failed banks, AIG, WaMu, Goldman, Morgan - let's see if there's any taking of responsibility, any guilt, any shame, any remorse. Let's hear em explain how they "never saw it coming" and how they were only trying to do good and that there was never, ever, any lying or stealing or malfeasance whatsoever. It just, you know, like, totally happened and stuff...
Why are all of the bank robbers allowed to hide from us, eh?
frank1569 writes: "Congress needs to demand public hearings RIGHT AWAY with all of the criminal bosses...Why are all of the bank robbers allowed to hide from us, eh?"
WHY? Because Americans are a pathetic people. 70% supported Bush when he invaded Iraq, and Americans voted/allowed Bush back in to office in 2004.
AMERICANS ARE GETTING WHAT THEY DESERVE FOR BEING SO COWED AND WEAK!
"HELP US, MR BUSH, THE TERORRISTS ARE COMING!!"
Americans are reaping what they have sowed.
What goes around, comes around. Americans didn't care about Iraqis - now no one cares about ordinary Americans. If you act like a fool, you get treated like a fool.
'That's what happens when gov runs hand in hand with business and it interferes with the market.' Chamelon, that is THE MARKET at work, not interferece with it. There is no such thing as THE MARKET that is not directed, and those at the top will direct. And those at the top in capitalism are those always with the most property and assets.
I have been reading this site for a few years now and I am what you would call a capitalist pig or worse: a libertarian.
I must say though that this bailout stands against all I believe in. I still can't believe the day has come when I agree with what an article on CD says.
Unfortunately even united (lib lefties, libertarians and conservatives)there's not much that we can do. Yeah we'll protest, write to out representatives (I already did so) but they will do whatever they want anyway. That's what happens when gov runs hand in hand with business and it interferes with the market.
If you don't like the MSM articles on CD, go elsewhere - don't waste our time with
your boring little thoughts.
"That's what happens when gov runs hand in hand with business and it interferes with the market."
DISGUSTING! That's what happens when the government does nothing but let's large corporations do what they like - the whole system comes crashing down as a result of unbridled greed.
The government is being removed as an impediment to corporate ambitions, and we are now seeing the result.
None of this would have happened had the government done its job.
Financial institutions lend other people's money. The government's job is to ensure these institutuions are properly run, do not engage in excessive risk taking, have enough reserves when things go wrong, and, above all, reduce moral hazard and adverse selection.
What the government did - and has been doing since Reagan's presidency - was tell the Financial institutions to run the show themselves with no oversight, and the result was a huge party. They trashed the furniture, poured beer on the carpet, and dropped food everywhere. Now everyone else must clean up the mess, and pay for the damages.
If you don't like the MSM articles on CD, go elsewhere, don't waste our time with your boring little thoughts.
staying_sane, unlike you at least i am reading what the other side has to say and I agree with them when they are right. that's the difference between a lib lefty (you) and me. enjoy the new state run economy.
It's too late. I just read a headline saying the Bail Out has been approved by Congress. WE THE PEOPLE are so screwed!
EuroDan September 25th, 2008 3:19 pm
"It's too late. I just read a headline saying the Bail Out has been approved by Congress. WE THE PEOPLE are so screwed!"
Not yet, it is stalled in Congress on two issues which I won't repeat here, please read my earlier post.
Lobo Gris
We been there for a long time.... waiting for you.
.
Mr. Kor Poratgreedhead:
Well, my goodness me, Taxpayer!!!
I’ve been financially raping you in your home every night for the last eight years.
Why, I’m shocked!!! However did I do that???
Taxpayer - quickly, please, you must follow me into the woods immediately!!!
I have an underground room there, Taxpayer, where we can work together to find a solution that stops me, and protects us both.
Duhdee Duh Taxpayer:
Oh, OK.
.
This bailout is nothing compared to the mega-storm slowly approaching us. This storm is in the form of credit-default swaps. Essentially, it is a form of gambling by buying insurance against a bank failure, mortgage company going out of business, or any other financial company facing bankruptcy and going out of business. The value of these credit-default swaps amounts to $62 trillion. At first, I was skeptical of this number, thinking it was way too high. I researched several other sources and they all are within the range of $55-65 trillion. If financial companies continue to go under, there will be some people who will become mighty rich while others lose their jobs and suffer.
What we REALLY need, is a
___ g o v e r n m e n t - d e f a u l t ___ s w a p ___
Because the _d.e.r.i.v.a.t.i.v.e_ of a curve with ZERO slope is still ZERO
Namaste
Here is what I think is fair. ALL the CEOs and top board members of all the Institutions that are failing due to the derivatives etc, from when this mess started need to have all their assets frozen, the house/s, fancy cars, and everything seized. Everything. An example needs to be set in front of the World Stage, and to show the future ones that THIS will not be tolerated. Throw an immediate 20% TAX on ALL Offshore Accounts. Any more ideas....
Coffeelover,,,,,,,
Coffeelover, I have made similar suggestions on several other sites such as Alternet. I just have a few minor differences I would like to share if you don't mind.
Rather than freezing the assets of just the CEO and boardmembers, I have suggested seizing the assets of anyone in these companies that have directly dealt with these frauduent deals, say anybody that has made more than $300,000. I also included in this seizure their bank accounts down to the last penney, their cars, their homes, their jewelry, offshore or foreign bank accounts or homes (if they fail to disclose the location of any of these, then waterboard them until they do. Afterall, their head honcho in the Whitehouse doesn't consider this torture so what the heck!), and anythiing else of value. No need to wait for a court to okay the seizure, law enforcement does this all the time to people suspectd of either possessing or dealing drugs, and in some states, the police will seize property for other even minor crimes. (An example being the guy in Michigan who was soliciting a prostitute while driving his wife's car. The police confiscated the car, even though it was his wife's car and she, obviously, had no idea he was using her car to find a prostitute.) I know, this seems, at least to me, to be unconstitutional. But, since they seem to have no qualms about the average person who isn't wealthy having their constitutional rights violated...well, then they can have the same treatment as the rest of us do. Then, file fraud charges against every one of them. Of those found guilty, life w/o parole in a maximum security prison.
Frankly, I think that since Bu$h and his cronies in government made all of this possible to began with, their assets should be seized as well. However, in their case, I don't believe it necessary to charge them with fraud as they will hopefully already be behind bars (or better) for war crimes, murder, treason, violation of F.I.S.A., lieing to congress, and violation of the Constitution. (Did I miss anything?)
As you said, we need to make an example of these crooks and I think the above treatment would likely discouurage anyone in the future from doing as these guys did.
Coffeelover, I have made similar suggestions on several other sites such as Alternet. I just have a few minor differences I would like to share if you don't mind.
Rather than freezing the assets of just the CEO and boardmembers, I have suggested seizing the assets of anyone in these companies that have directly dealt with these frauduent deals, say anybody that has made more than $300,000. I also included in this seizure their bank accounts down to the last penney, their cars, their homes, their jewelry, offshore or foreign bank accounts or homes (if they fail to disclose the location of any of these, then waterboard them until they do. Afterall, their head honcho in the Whitehouse doesn't consider this torture so what the heck!), and anythiing else of value. No need to wait for a court to okay the seizure, law enforcement does this all the time to people suspectd of either possessing or dealing drugs, and in some states, the police will seize property for other even minor crimes. (An example being the guy in Michigan who was soliciting a prostitute while driving his wife's car. The police confiscated the car, even though it was his wife's car and she, obviously, had no idea he was using her car to find a prostitute.) I know, this seems, at least to me, to be unconstitutional. But, since they seem to have no qualms about the average person who isn't wealthy having their constitutional rights violated...well, then they can have the same treatment as the rest of us do. Then, file fraud charges against every one of them. Of those found guilty, life w/o parole in a maximum security prison.
Frankly, I think that since Bu$h and his cronies in government made all of this possible to began with, their assets should be seized as well. However, in their case, I don't believe it necessary to charge them with fraud as they will hopefully already be behind bars (or better) for war crimes, murder, treason, violation of F.I.S.A., lieing to congress, and violation of the Constitution. (Did I miss anything?)
As you said, we need to make an example of these crooks and I think the above treatment would likely discouurage anyone in the future from doing as these guys did.
Coffeelover, I have made similar suggestions on several other sites such as Alternet. I just have a few minor differences I would like to share if you don't mind.
Rather than freezing the assets of just the CEO and boardmembers, I have suggested seizing the assets of anyone in these companies that have directly dealt with these frauduent deals, say anybody that has made more than $300,000. I also included in this seizure their bank accounts down to the last penney, their cars, their homes, their jewelry, offshore or foreign bank accounts or homes (if they fail to disclose the location of any of these, then waterboard them until they do. Afterall, their head honcho in the Whitehouse doesn't consider this torture so what the heck!), and anythiing else of value. No need to wait for a court to okay the seizure, law enforcement does this all the time to people suspectd of either possessing or dealing drugs, and in some states, the police will seize property for other even minor crimes. (An example being the guy in Michigan who was soliciting a prostitute while driving his wife's car. The police confiscated the car, even though it was his wife's car and she, obviously, had no idea he was using her car to find a prostitute.) I know, this seems, at least to me, to be unconstitutional. But, since they seem to have no qualms about the average person who isn't wealthy having their constitutional rights violated...well, then they can have the same treatment as the rest of us do. Then, file fraud charges against every one of them. Of those found guilty, life w/o parole in a maximum security prison.
Frankly, I think that since Bu$h and his cronies in government made all of this possible to began with, their assets should be seized as well. However, in their case, I don't believe it necessary to charge them with fraud as they will hopefully already be behind bars (or better) for war crimes, murder, treason, violation of F.I.S.A., lieing to congress, and violation of the Constitution. (Did I miss anything?)
As you said, we need to make an example of these crooks and I think the above treatment would likely discouurage anyone in the future from doing as these guys did.
Coffeelover, I have made similar suggestions on several other sites such as Alternet. I just have a few minor differences I would like to share if you don't mind.
Rather than freezing the assets of just the CEO and boardmembers, I have suggested seizing the assets of anyone in these companies that have directly dealt with these frauduent deals, say anybody that has made more than $300,000. I also included in this seizure their bank accounts down to the last penney, their cars, their homes, their jewelry, offshore or foreign bank accounts or homes (if they fail to disclose the location of any of these, then waterboard them until they do. Afterall, their head honcho in the Whitehouse doesn't consider this torture so what the heck!), and anythiing else of value. No need to wait for a court to okay the seizure, law enforcement does this all the time to people suspectd of either possessing or dealing drugs, and in some states, the police will seize property for other even minor crimes. (An example being the guy in Michigan who was soliciting a prostitute while driving his wife's car. The police confiscated the car, even though it was his wife's car and she, obviously, had no idea he was using her car to find a prostitute.) I know, this seems, at least to me, to be unconstitutional. But, since they seem to have no qualms about the average person who isn't wealthy having their constitutional rights violated...well, then they can have the same treatment as the rest of us do. Then, file fraud charges against every one of them. Of those found guilty, life w/o parole in a maximum security prison.
Frankly, I think that since Bu$h and his cronies in government made all of this possible to began with, their assets should be seized as well. However, in their case, I don't believe it necessary to charge them with fraud as they will hopefully already be behind bars (or better) for war crimes, murder, treason, violation of F.I.S.A., lieing to congress, and violation of the Constitution. (Did I miss anything?)
As you said, we need to make an example of these crooks and I think the above treatment would likely discouurage anyone in the future from doing as these guys did.
Coffeelover, I have made similar suggestions on several other sites such as Alternet. I just have a few minor differences I would like to share if you don't mind.
Rather than freezing the assets of just the CEO and boardmembers, I have suggested seizing the assets of anyone in these companies that have directly dealt with these frauduent deals, say anybody that has made more than $300,000. I also included in this seizure their bank accounts down to the last penney, their cars, their homes, their jewelry, offshore or foreign bank accounts or homes (if they fail to disclose the location of any of these, then waterboard them until they do. Afterall, their head honcho in the Whitehouse doesn't consider this torture so what the heck!), and anythiing else of value. No need to wait for a court to okay the seizure, law enforcement does this all the time to people suspectd of either possessing or dealing drugs, and in some states, the police will seize property for other even minor crimes. (An example being the guy in Michigan who was soliciting a prostitute while driving his wife's car. The police confiscated the car, even though it was his wife's car and she, obviously, had no idea he was using her car to find a prostitute.) I know, this seems, at least to me, to be unconstitutional. But, since they seem to have no qualms about the average person who isn't wealthy having their constitutional rights violated...well, then they can have the same treatment as the rest of us do. Then, file fraud charges against every one of them. Of those found guilty, life w/o parole in a maximum security prison.
Frankly, I think that since Bu$h and his cronies in government made all of this possible to began with, their assets should be seized as well. However, in their case, I don't believe it necessary to charge them with fraud as they will hopefully already be behind bars (or better) for war crimes, murder, treason, violation of F.I.S.A., lieing to congress, and violation of the Constitution. (Did I miss anything?)
As you said, we need to make an example of these crooks and I think the above treatment would likely discouurage anyone in the future from doing as these guys did.
An ordinary Joe gets busted with an ounce of marijuana: his car is impounded, his bank account, his house etc., all impounded. What these firms have done is a RICO offense, with Bushface and Paulson the visible co-conspirators. Put'em all in jail and strip them all of any assets as any other criminal.
Put a freeze on foreign acquisitions so that we don't lose more US companies ... and jobs.
Good point. A 'no flying' rule.
The correct solution is to relieve Wall Street of its mortgages – the negative equity inciting panic behavior – and let this be the only “bailout” they receive. They are demanding to be paid in full for mortgages they cannot carry in order to recapitalize themselves with public funding. We should give them nothing and put out the mortgage fires as they occur. The economic meltdown will not materialize, instead the economy will purge itself of useless financial parasites.
AAAwww. Shucks!! Why did you have to go and be so rational so early in the morning. :)
The problem is, for me at least, what constitutes a mortgage fire, who is 'we'? Besides simply giving public funds for negative equity must include new mortgages reflecting that for the individual homeowner. Where is that? Your still talking $700 billion plus Bears, GM, etc. And There remains no obligation of the taxpayer to lessen this problem. Flat out, No. Just like disciplining a child in a toy store. That essentially, is the crux.