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TechnoratiDoes the president of the United States have the right to order a detainee buried alive?
Oddly, this grotesque question was posed at a U.S. Congressional hearing last week. Even odder was the answer -- from John Yoo, former deputy assistant attorney general in the Bush administration, now a law professor at the University of California.
"I don't think that I've ever given the advice that the president could bury somebody alive," Yoo told a judiciary subcommittee hearing into detainee interrogations.
Well, I guess that's comforting to know. But it was striking to watch Yoo evade answering whether he considered there was any treatment so vicious and inhuman that it would be beyond the president's power to inflict it on a detainee, in the interests of national defence.
Apparently there isn't. In a public debate in 2005, Yoo was asked if he thought it would be lawful for the president to authorize crushing the testicles of a detainee's child.
It would seem like a simple "no" would suffice. But here's how Yoo responded: "I think it depends on why the president thinks he needs to do that."
Asked about that line last week during his Congressional testimony, Yoo didn't deny saying it, but protested that it was taken "out of context." Does that mean there's a context in which a top legal adviser might advise the president that that's okay?
After 7 1/2 years of George W. Bush, much of the media and political establishment -- which have never shown much interest in holding Bush to account -- now appear anxious to simply move on. They seem determined to leave unexamined the full cruelty and mendacity of the Bush administration, with its unlawful wars and blatant violations of the Geneva Conventions.
Moving on is a great idea - once there's been some accountability, with a full public recognition of wrongdoing, and a commitment to bring about change. Otherwise, nothing will have been learned.
The comments of Yoo, who authored top-level internal memos justifying torture and virtually unlimited presidential power, suggest a moral depravity in very high places.
That depravity led to the horrific abuses at Abu Ghraib and at other U.S. prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan, Guantanamo Bay and "black sites" around the world.
The dean of the Massachusetts School of Law, Lawrence Velvel, argues that Bush and top administration officials, including Yoo, should be tried for war crimes. His law school is holding a conference in September to map out ways to try to pursue these prosecutions "if need be, to the ends of the Earth."
Meanwhile, here in Canada, it seems we're supposed to avert our gaze. Strong critiques of Bush are slapped down for being "anti-American."
Certainly, the Harper government, while quick to spot anti-democratic behaviour in Zimbabwe, is blind to it south of the border. Not only has Ottawa failed to join European nations in protesting Guantanamo Bay -- and refused to do anything to help the Canadian imprisoned there -- it actively co-operates with the United States on security matters and has sent thousands of Canadian troops to Afghanistan to fight in the front lines of Bush's "war on terror."
All this is presented as helping our neighbour, and building democracy in Afghanistan. Another way to look at it is that we're lending support to an administration whose moral compass doesn't seem to rule out burying people alive or crushing the testicles of children.
Linda McQuaig's column appears in The Star every other week.
© Copyright Toronto Star 1996-2008
47 Comments so far
Show AllJohn C. Woo, Model Minority
You know this guy. Sure you do. Hard-working, quiet, respectful guy in the front row. Not much personality, always prepared, ambitious but only academically, without the social ambition that really gets a person somewhere, so safe to ignore.
Yeah. You know him. You may have even talked to him; at least, you asked him for help on the homework when you were hung over from the party. You had fun in college, drank too much, tried pot, got addicted to pills--the usual, normal stuff.
He was happy to help. He liked the attention, and it cost him nothing but his time, which (see above re social ambition) he had in buckets. You didn't know this, maybe you suspected it, but when he was helping you, he had contempt for your dissolute ways, your poor preparation, your poor grades. That's how it is with the insecure. They can never let anyone else be happy.
So, John C. Yoo, professor of law at the University of California, Berkeley, they know you. I know you. You are the Pride of the Family. Successful son of the grocer, or whatever. But, listen, smarty pants. Can you figure this out?
Far better, a thousand times better, for you to have taken over the drycleaning business, than what you have accomplished in your "accomplished" life! You are a scoundrel, a rascal, and a coward. Let us call the yellow-bellied coward by name. Come on, a**wipe. Hit me. I would love to take this outside.
All those innocent people tortured in the name of National Security--our laws disregarded because of the President's Wartime Authority, according to your famous memos--all those families destroyed, all the pain inflicted on bodies private and public--can you hear them? Can you hear those voices crying out for justice?
Your turn is coming, John. Your turn is coming.
Remember the words of the Prophet and tremble:
Let justice roll down as waters and righteousness as a mighty stream.
http://www.melancholykorean.com/full-serial/2008/4/2/john-c-yoo-model-mi...
Shadowdancer,
Christianity is the white man's religion derived from Jewish roots. They forced indigenous people of the Americas to give up their native religions and become Christians. I'm sure you knew that already, but I just thought I'd mention it.
M HODY * 4 THE FUTURE: Excellent, provocative posts!
"The media and political establishment want to move on... without accountability ..."
True enough. But let's use terms that reflect the fuller, fatter reality.
Since the MSMedia, and the political establishment, and the military-industrial complex, and the acadmeic-professional complex, and the NGO/religious complex are now virtually meta fused into a Prevailing Illicit Government, it's easier to acronym the entire fascist mess as 'PIG' --never mind dots between the letters.
This Prevailing Illicit Government is growing ever fatter by expropriating, with less and less challenge, the institutional powers and resources intended for a free and diverse people. Like the real banyard animal, it's shallowly clever and deeply insatiable. It doesn't merely want to vomit out undigested issues of illegal war and torture. It also wants to continue ingesting what it can't digest --the political, economic, legal, and ethical foods of society
The illicit government has done very well for itself these past 7 years, easily qintupling it's ill gotten weight. It will die of overweight on its own, no doubt. But no one know when that will be, or how much it'll devour and destroy beforehand.
Is there any counterforce that could corral and shrink this unnatural creature in the near term?
The only counter force I can think of is the reassertion of governing sovereignty by those remaining people this pig still intends to eat.
Unfortunately, most of those people are either too zombied-out to resist devourment, or they believe the PIG is actually their friend.
But that is another story.
"Certainly, the Harper government, while quick to spot anti-democratic behaviour in Zimbabwe, is blind to it south of the border."
That is because Harper works for the same humanoids as Bush does... he's just a little smarter in his techniques but rest assured, Harper is just as evil.
Small comfort, I guess, but every member of the Coalition of the Willing is an accomplice in this. It's quite simple: the US and Israel can't do wrong, there's a different set of rules at work for these two countries and most politicians are too cowardly to admit it.
"After 7 1/2 years of George W. Bush, much of the media and political establishment — which have never shown much interest in holding Bush to account — now appear anxious to simply move on."
--Democrats are co-conspirators for failing to uphold the Constitution.
"The dean of the Massachusetts School of Law, Lawrence Velvel, argues that Bush and top administration officials, including Yoo, should be tried for war crimes."
--Can the Obama-supporting Democratic Party apologists explain why Bush cannot be tried?
--Where's Obama? Out on his flag-draped, 4th of July, "I love America-I'm a patriot" while I help destroy your freedoms (FISA) tour?
Re previous posts - I don't think there is any "grandfathering" or "fathering" responsible for creation. The more I hear and read of these patriarchal religions and creation myths, the more I see that men, who are vital to conception, but tangential at best, to the gestation and birth process, have made their claim to a patriarchal god to compensate for this perceived marginalization.
Along with the promotion of their male gods, many societies have practiced the subjugation and denigration of women, and made the reproductive process dirty and/or criminal. Maybe someday in the fullness of time, there will be a balance, but unfortunately there is less and less prospect of there being any fullness to the time left our species.
The US has been averting its eyes to cruelty ever since we began slaughtering Native Americans to steal their resources - ie - America.
I agree with willybill; nazis are dooming all of us on this planet. Fascist evil is very direct here and and in Israel, but a bit indirect through our "international" corporations. I only hope we can eventually drag Chaney, Bush, Yoo, and ALL our war criminals to the Hague.
Vera Gottlieb July 2nd, 2008 3:27 am .....Answer: The Neo Nazi gutter now ruling America and Israel!
Why are the students at UC Berkley not dropping out of Mr. Yoo's class? If no one signed up for his class, he would be hit where it hurts and I don't mean in the balls.
There can be no "moving on" without justice. Congress and the Bush Administration merely add to the festering body of corruption that continues to harm the people of America. This body of corruption twists reality and becomes a form of madness. The bombing of Iran is it's latest manifestation. Corruption enabling madness has only bad outcomes. The patients are now running the asylum.
The US is now exporting torture methods. See: Mexico.
Susan Frishkorn
Out of which gutter is all this varmin coming?!
Yoo is guilty of war crimes, period. If there was any justice in this world, he would be locked away until the end of time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Yoo
I would NOT argue that his son, if he has one, should have his testicles crushed, however, for any reason. The ends always follow from the means, not the other way around.
Shadowdancer: thank you for your comments and perspective. I think you might be surprised at how many "white" people aspire to the Hopi way of life. But like what happened to the Hopi vis-a-vis Peabody coal, the American people are in many respects powerless and have been deceived. The one course of action that could actually cause great change: collective action, is the very thing that has been outlawed and considered to be terrorist, by definition.
I readily accept and recognize I am living with insane, dangerous people, but have limited options. If you have any ideas, I'd love to hear them...
This government is completely responsible, and in no way out of control. It would be perfectly fine to abolish the Second Amendment, and just let these authorities have utter control of the masses, with no chance of recourse. For that matter, the First Amendment only leads to discontent, get rid of it, too.
Americans voted this team in, let them enjoy the fruits of their vote. They deserve every torturous, gruesome, foul, evil, satanic price they may pay for it.
Maybe they are afraid that when the president goes home (if he allows election), they will be afraid to turn out their lights.
Our president was likely taking notes on the Zimbabwe travesty. Could it happen here?
The slippery eel Yoo has no respect and apparently thinks no one deserves an honest answer regarding his master's crimes. He made the hearing last week a joke by not answering the questions.
Try to imagine a reason why it would be inadvisable to crush the testicles of John Yoo. Unless he is a Bush eunuch, I just can't come up with anything.
Cee Miracles correctly identifies the moment we lost our compass. Even if you grant the very dubious assertion that armed force was necessary to get Iraq out of Kuwait,there was obviously no reason to bomb the entire country of Iraq, targeting specifically the civilian infrastructure. This was done following a plan from defense intelligence agency. The idea was that once the water treatment facilities and electric grid were knocked out, then the sanctions could be used so,that nothing could be repaired. The result, according to the DIAn plan would be "epidemic levels of water borne diseases". Which was, of course exactly what happened. Slow and painful death for a million Iraqis, almost all of them children under five. "a trade center's worth of toddlers avery month", as someone put it,for all those years.Very few atrocities can compare to that one. And it was old bush and clinton/albright that carried it out.
http://www.scn.org/ccpi/infrastructure.html#usdia
Setting on the mesa of the Hopi people living on their Rez watching the sunset while looking back through a thing called time. Shrug my shoulders about the problems of the white people's world.
Living upon Grandfather's creation in the now of things. Enjoying Grandfather's creation in the now of things.The Planet orbits in a circle going nowhere getting nowhere as it has always done in this thing called time.
Thank you Grandfather for letting me be a part of your creation, but I'm only a part of creation. When the Hopi mother of the family I am staying with saw the Ancient Symbol I drew on morning she froze & with all her being she said, "That world is crazy out there."
Our Prophets foretold a long time ago things to come before the end as did the Prophets of other people.
Even some white people have turned their back on their own world they now know the lies. They now know their own world is the Devil's world, a crazy world, A Beast upon the earth as foretold by Jesus in the prophecy he gave to John. Jesus who visited Wovoca some time back by stepping into this world & back out again as Jesus can easily do at any time.
They do not know the history of Turtle Island nor that of the Tribes, nor the stories passed along from generation to generation by the Tribes.
John Yoo taught quietly at the University of California for a couple of years after he left the government. He walked around Berkeley almost every day with no interference whatsoever.
Isn't that strange?
Cheney like a snake to a rat gravitated to DC.
Addington too.
Donald Rumself went there young w/o power.
It drew them.
Great point Galifray.
Artists and tree huggers don't seek power and we've become enslaved by the empowered few.
As per Galifray above, what is it about power as it exists in this realm that 'draws the corrupt to it' ? The concept of 'power drawing the corrupt to it' is a very astute observation and perhaps a good opening to ask the real question : what are the qualities of 'power' in this realm which do in fact 'draw the corrupt to it', and how do those qualities differ from the qualities of authentic power, which can only be accessed by those of compassionate intent ?
Imagine the lessons learned by the students as they collect the golden drops of knowledge as they dribble from the lips of Professor Yoo.
And our "Harpy" Prime Minister had the USA taken off the list of torturing nations in the foreign service's manual for reasons of political cohesion and general knee-padding (kowtowing, brown nosing, whatever you wish to call it).
If Harper stands for anything, it's because Bush is holding his strings tight.
Bring all foreign troops back to their home countries and let the Middle East take care of their own sovereign affairs. Of course, major fiscal reparations are in order. If not, we bury both Bush and Harper alive or crush their gonads, whichever is most expedient.
This is only loosely connected with this discussion: the Bush administration is rattling war sabers, making threats at every Mideastern nation, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, N. Korea, S. America, and Russia. Bush has been increasing his threats to Iran, scratching (not so successfully) for an excuse to launch an attack, while "double-daring" Israel to attack Iran(or vice versa)for him. The killing has been increasing in Afghanistan.
Bush had a peculiar falling-out with his pal, Vladimir Putin. So, Bush set up a missile system in Eastern Europe, near the Russian border, to "protect Europe from terrorists". On another front, Bush indicated to Russia that he intends to invade the arctic region north of Russia to drill oil wells, ignoring Russia's strong objection. The Russian military is on the alert. However it turns out, Bush is clearly instigating a confrontation with Russia.
In other words, we're on the brink of World War III, with ALL of the world outraged by America's actions over the past 7 years. So, what can we do?
Neither Obama nor McCain appear interested in reversing course.
" Even odder was the answer — from John Yoo, former deputy assistant attorney general in the Bush administration, now a law professor at the University of California."
Since it was Yoo that rendered the opion that Bush used in the first place, why would anyone be surprised at anything he said.
There have been some lovely opinions about Yoo and where he should go and what he should do when he got there. I certainly approve of every one.
His employer of the moment should tell you all you need to know about what Yoo is.
Pax
""I don't think that I've ever given the advice that the president could bury somebody alive," Yoo told a judiciary subcommittee hearing into detainee interrogations."
Actually, that's not true. Yoo originally opined that only "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death" constitute torture punishable by law."
So burying someone alive would be okie-dokie, at least for a while...
Maybe we ought to subject these guys to the 'treatment' their opinions enabled.
Then, let them tell us if it's torture or not.
John Yoo should be buried alive. That psychopath can't even answer a simple yes/no right/wrong question.
I find it greatly disturbing that there is this shadow army of lawyers and politicians, who, like John Yoo, have an almost pathological fear of answering questions directly. Worse, they seem incapable of making moral choices and understanding the concept of the rule of law.
I'd like to make a joke of it, along the lines of Poacher turning Game Keeper, but that just seems grotesque rather than funny.
Still, I guess the psychologist to the Kansas Senate that I chatted with back in the 1980s was correct. He thought that power did not corrupt. Instead power draws the corrupt to it. This administration seems hell-bent on proving him right.
It's Canada Day but I can't hang out that maple leaf this time. What the hell are we doing in Afghanistan?
Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas. As a Canadian, I'm scratching like crazy on this our "Canada Day." Although why we, as a US vassal state, still celebrate it is beyond me.
lwhunt330 July 1st, 2008 1:21 pm
It is absolutely amazing how these criminals (Yoo and Addington can sit there so arrogantly and lie to congress and have no fear of prosecution whatsoever.
What has happened to our country?
Scott Ritter said that Americans no longer act as citizens, only as consumers. Most Americans can't find Iraq on a map or tell you who their two senators are. That's what's happened. George Carlin once observed that Republicans and Democrats "threw the American people overboard thirty fucking years ago." It's more like the American people threw themselves overboard because, to cite Scott Ritter again, Americans are now nothing more than consumers. If you could sell stupidity and heedlessness in bottles and cans, you'd make an unimaginable fortune.
Well put Cee Maracles 2:23. I also understand we had Kuwait flood the market with oil to drive the price down. Further stress for Iraq.
The sociopath-in-charge would not be here but for so many Evangelicals with "Jesus" on their lips and "Satan" in their hearts.
The answer may be "blowing in the wind" but he World Watches, and as the USA looses credibility with each new election/Presidency/Regime, they wait.
While the USA is crumbling from the neglected infrastructure internally, they insist upon crumbling their reputation in their world standing. Conservative-Progressive---Christian, Jew, etc-----they all preside over a corrupt society with its corruption seeping into every aspect of Society----with but a few exceptions----and those exceptions have little power to change the situation----the USA is well on it's way to becoming THE Negative example in History.....................
So if the readers have children, who may get a chance to reproduce to make those readers Grand Parents---they may have the chance to say to those Grand Children----MY generation, is responsible for putting the USA on a just, and enviable tract when we made the necessary changes to make our "great nation" a "great nation"-------or they will be forced to keep silent about their involvement so as not to loose credibility totally............
The Cherokee elder known as Sequoia once said;
"The choices you make today will impact seven generations, so choose wisely"
I might add, those "generations' may be your own descendants------------
As for myself: I am native born, of mixed Native and Immigrant heritage, a Vietnam Era Veteran. I still do not consider myself a "citizen"---but a "prisoner of war"* and do not vote since my "nation" was stolen from me by people like Mr. Bush, and the others who hire people like Mr. Yoo, to do their dirty work---while the other's keep electing them and financing their stupidity---------------
* On the international Legal venue, all Native Americans are technically "Prisoners of War" since the USA broke treaties with them, that the USA brought to THEM to make "peace"----because the USA could not possibly win those wars........unfortunately most Native Americans do no share that view point-----and so they settle for less than is theirs---in face of overwhelming odds, as well as overwhelming hypocracy, and stupidity, exhibited by the USA and an overwhelming number of it's citizens-----who just may be existing on borrowed time.
Only time will tell---and the clock is ticking. Tic Toc, Tic Toc--------------
When the U.S. attack began in DADDIO BUSH's first GULF WAR, the raggedy, poorly armed Iraqi army was already fleeing from Kuwait through the desert and along the road to Baghdad. Strafing and bombing from the air, and tanks with turret guns and missiles firing demolished the Iraqi defense ... zip-zap ...
Since we are no longer in any kind of humane times nor follow the Geneva convention, even back then, evidently, those unfortunate, poorly armed Iraqi soldiers who were merely wounded were buried alive in the sand by bull-dozers either equipped on some tanks or following behind.
"Gee ... Did you hear cries or see arms waving from the sand?" "Wounded?" "What wounded?" "Bye-bye." "Fortunes of war, I guess."
And let us remember that George Herbert Walker Bush had given a tacit okay about Saddam's invading Kuwait after contact from Saddam had been made through Iraqi and European emissaries to U.S. emissaries who then informed GWHBUSH. GWH announced that this was a "domestic matter between Iraq and Kuwait," and said there would be no action taken against Saddam or Iraq by the U.S.
The reason for the Iraqi invasion was because Kuwait was slant drilling oil into Iraqi oil wells and Iraq was broke from years of war with Iran and Kuwait was stealing Iraqi income. Iraq was supported by the U.S. against Iran, and then betrayed by the U.S. And this is not to say Saddam was a nice guy. He wasn't. But neither are we citizens governed by nice guys for a good many years now.
Then, ... Prime Minister of England, Margaret Thatcher flew to Aspen, Colorado, where GWH and family members or friends were ski-ing and vacationing. Her take to GWH [in Americaneeze] was something like, "Are you crazy? It's the oil, Stupid!"
DADDIO BUSH was convinced easily about the necessity for a DESERT STORM WAR, and old "Bloody" Margaret gushed to the press how well she and George Herbert Walker Bush saw eye to eye and were on the same page, keeping that long traditional alliance of the Lion and the Eagle alive ... just the usual justifiable WASP colonial violence and takeover, as usual.
"This cannot stand!" this unwarranted and terrible invasion by Sadaam, GWH stated shortly thereafter in a ringing scripted speech to the U.S. Public, with the usual litany of justifications for starting a war against the bad guys ... Saddam and Iraq.
And thus this 18-year-long nightmare and tragedy for the Iraqi people and the mid-eastern area began.
It's still all about the oil, but now the sand is red with blood and millions have died and millions more are refugees, and once-fresh-faced young U.S. soldiers are maimed and mangled by the score and wear the haunted Vietnam look from the psychological and emotional scars from what they've seen and been ordered to do, with about 2,000 now dead by suicide. And those 200 or so permanent bases that have been built by the U.S. in Iraq ... Oh, no, no, they're not permanent. They're built on sand! ... etcetera
My idle to sometimes pointed fantasies suggest a few runaway bull-dozers to demolish the White House, that palace of darkness and psychopathic evil that decidedly is no longer The People's House.
www.ponerology.blogspot.com/2008/02/trick-of-psychopath-trade-make-us.ht...
And you better believe it, folks. I hate to say it, but it seems from all reports that the worst is yet to come. Hang on to your innate goodness ...
peace to you and yours ...
Many countries have allowed Sociopaths to rise to leadership, ours is just one of them.
As Bob Dylan once wrote--
"How many times can a man (not the minions of Bushco but the rest of us!) turn his back and pretend that he just doesn't see? The answer my friends is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind."
It is absolutely amazing how these criminals (Yoo and Addington can sit there so arrogantly and lie to congress and have no fear of prosecution whatsoever.
What has happened to our country?
Neocon = Nazi.
Yoo is a fascist toady and a war criminal. The fact that he was given a Professorship at the University of California at Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law just indicates how depraved and corrupt not just the government has become, but how the legal and educational institutions in this country have learned to lick the jackboot as well.
The greatest gift W. could make to democracy in America would be to be charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced for war crimes. Never again would a president treat our consitution with such disregard ( and possibly for the first time in his life he would realistically be held responsible for his actions).
There were "numerous mass graves, filled with bones and skulls" discovered in Afghanistan after the US-led invasion:
U.N. investigators hope to unlock the mystery, and outside Mazar-e-Sharif, they are standing watch over a patch of desert where as many as 1,000 Taliban fighters may be buried.
Newsweek also did a story on this, which was criticized for "whitewash[ing] US role" in the killings.