The Value of the Impeachment Process

Anything this Congress does is "pointless" as long as Bush has his little veto pen in hand. Might as well have some fun fucking with him. If nothing else, just for the basic satisfaction it would give us all (and I mean all -- have you seen Chris Hume's new round of Red State Road Trip? The Repugs hate this guy as much as we do.) They should be doing NOTHING BUT talking about all the crimes committed by this administration, 24/7. Maybe they could shame him out of office. Make it so there is no other news coming out of Congress. The press would have to cover it or just pretend like there is no government anymore. Just picture all the staffers running around trying to shield poor baby Bush from all the dissenting views. Make it so he can never go out in public again. A little "solitary confinement" for mister torture. Makes me smile just thinkin' about it.

Thomas More: "I believe in private ownership, but I respect your view. To be able to listen to your ideas is what makes me sure its not too late for us."

Well there's a start isn't it. You know, I think the biggest problem is that we have to move from a "ME ME ME" outlook to a "WE WE WE" outlook. We also need to take a good hard look at the whole "economic system" which, if you ask me, was one of the stupidest creations mankind ever came up with (from a average person point of view). It's great if you're rich because it allows the uninterrupted transfer of wealth to the top. Sucks if you're not on top.

To me, the "American Dream" means that "If you work hard, you too can get your piece of the pie in the US."... But for the vast majority, it's not true. The system is gamed against you so how can you get ahead? You really can't. As well, the whole "dream" is based on material wealth, which in my opinion, is destructive to the soul. There are much more important and satisfying things than material wealth.

Someone posted a story about the Mexican fisherman in one of the articles the other day... not going to repeat it but it really outlines the futility of the "American dream" and pursuit of wealth. You can find it here: http://www.molliekatzen.com/messages/messages_0799.php

"you too can be part of the moneyed class. That's a lie though."

Maybe the lower tier? Not in the Hedge fund class of course. Allow me to disagree and say that the American Dream as I know it does not breed greed. But it certainly is in danger from the unbridled greed seeping out of wall street.

I believe in private ownership, but I respect your view. To be able to listen to your ideas is what makes me sure its not too late for us.

Pax

Sooner or later (if we do not want to "perish as fools" ala` MLK) we will All need to grow up and stay focused on a simple truth. Humanity (Homo Sapiens Sapiens) is "us" and one species. Our destiny is and will be a shared one.

Re- this awareness we seem to be at a critical evolutionary juncture. Will we be viable for the future? Will our less developed, more primitive elements (lack of awareness, laziness, craving and greed, hatred, indifference, confusion and failure to choose well) bring us to an evolutionary dead end?

One can imagine that many a sentient species out there in space has foundered and disintegrated at just this kind of crossroads.

The truth is that we (HSS) have tremendous potential. Positive potential far beyond what most of us consider possible. Currently, there are a growing number of beings on our planet who have dedicated themselves to bringing forth this potential.

One of them and a wonderful exemplar can be found at
Amma.org

In the final anaysis the responsiblity to truly wake up and dedicate ourselves in service to the well-being of all that lives - rests within you and me.

"Today America is more divided than at any time in recent history and fear has become patriotic."

I'm shattered to think that all of those flag-waving pick-up drivers are a bunch of fearful wimps.

Thomas More: Never said that there weren't 'good' Americans... just saying that the "American Dream" itself is fundamentally flawed. It pushed the goals of private ownership... it pushes the concept that greed is good and if you work hard, you too can be part of the moneyed class. That's a lie though.

"The ONLY thing I need to back up my statement is look where 300 years of the "American Dream" has got you? A country that values greed over everything else, at the expense of it's own citizenry. That in itself is compelling enough don't you think?"

I just don't believe that and I don't see it in my neck of the woods. So thats where we disagree.

But make no mistake, we've got a corporate culture out of control, government that is forgetting to represent their citizens. Certainly enough greedy people to go around.

But they are just vastly outnumbered by the good people in our country. And I believe if you look closely you'll find local and State governments are stirring to take back control where the Feds are falling down.

The top won't change without a good hard insertion from the bottom up. I believe Americans are doing just that. Our country has very different values than our current leadership or educrats. One of us has to be right. Hope its me. America has always been the best.

Thomas More: "Well, I don't see anything to back up your statement except a misuse of name calling"

The ONLY thing I need to back up my statement is look where 300 years of the "American Dream" has got you? A country that values greed over everything else, at the expense of it's own citizenry. That in itself is compelling enough don't you think?

I say we KICK OUT ALL false Dems. As soon as a "Democrat" takes one corporate dollar, they have become a Republican. And that's the truth.

Of course, to kick them all out, we have to break down the media monopolies and have elections that can't be bought by donations. THIS IS THE KICKER. How the hell do we do this?

Good piece, John Keane.

Let's face it: the Democratic party has split into two factions. We have the Republican-enabling Democrats like Pelosi, Feinstein and the Blue Dogs on the one side and the "true believer" Democrats like Dennis Kucinich and Russ Feingold on the other side. The sooner progressives realize this the better. We must come up with strategies that make end runs around Pelosi, Hoyer, et al. Forget them, They must be marginalized and ejected from the party. The sooner this happens the better. Are you listening, Dr. Dean?

"The executive branch of government never wields more power than it does when the country is at war. It can fix contracts, circumvent the Constitution, suspend elections and basically do anything it deems necessary to protect American interests… world wide! American corporations stand to reap huge amounts of money during a war, whether it be from oil, munitions, uniforms, food or transportation."

This is so only because the other coequal branches of government allow it. We might ask why? And the answer always turns on political viability of those who keep silent. The will to power is more important than the will to justice, to honor, to authenticity - and perhpas most important - to embodying a fundemental virtue you wont find in our current crop of representatives on either side: a thing called guts. This value is not found in the Halls of Congress, but it can be found on a battle field, or on top of a mountain, or in the middle of the desert.

You people have the government you deserve presicely because you yourselfs lack this virtue.

elmysterio June 22nd, 2008 5:02 pm
Thomas More: The "American Dream" is a lie. It is based on greed and gluttony. Two of the 7 deadly sins. It's twisted and demented thinking that believes that unfettered greed is a good thing. Fascist.

Well, I don't see anything to back up your statement except a misuse of name calling. If thats the best you've got, geezzzzzz.

Our country certainly has produced a lot and given a chance to all kinds of people to be as terrible as you'd like it to be. Why don't you reconsider and come over to the liberal side?

Heres a thought, if we are so bad, try opening a business in France.

I don't know how I skipped over this article yesterday.

lisa3210peace, I don't see how anyone could rule out the possibility that key politicians are being blackmailed. That said, there's a wide range of degrees of Democratic complicity and collusion that could account for the Democrats rejecting Constitutional duties and remedies in favor of enabling the criminal maladministration.

As RichM and a few others (including me) tirelessly remind us, it is much more accurate to see the duopoly as a single elite ruling class that superficially divides into two seemingly distinct and "opposing" parties.

This is not to say that there are "no" differences between them, as moderate partisan True Believers scoff in their usual reductionistic way. Obviously each party attracts different types, and there are a scattering of politicians manifesting vestigial principles that are more at home in one party than the other. So there may be nine cents' worth of difference between the two.

But when push comes to shove, all of these supposed irreconcilable differences recede far into the background in favor of a "bipartisan" unity that advances its own interests at the expense of We the People and the common good.

Personally, I don't think it's very likely that blackmail is even necessary to account for Democratic seeming-capitulation. Their own self-serving herd mentality, and the universal gutless instinct to not rock the boat suggests that no one needs to have their arm twisted to go along with the amoral, justice-free Powers That Be.

Praise the Lord and pass the Ammo lisa3210peace.

Sex: Impeachment Proceedings.

The Greatest War Crime of All, attack and occupation: No Problem.

I don't know why folks don't believe a few key members of congress (dems) have not been black-mailed. Obvious to me, a couple black-bag set-ups, BANG, congress is 'yours' whoever YOU are, Cheney.

Hang Cheney and Bush in the Rose Garden. At Noon. On National Television. On Sunday.

Praise Jesus.

So, we need an intripid reporter to investigate why impeachment is off the table, why no prosecutor has copied the indictments drafted by retired prosecutors Vincent Bagliosi or Elizabeth de la Vega who have published books citing murder charges or ciminal fraud charges? There are thousands of county jurisdictions where charges could be filed, but not one warrant, not even for the former members of the administration, Powell, Rove, or Rumsfield. It can't be because there is no case or no crime, so what gives? Are all these prosecutors afraid, or is it just there would be no political gain for these elected DAs? Hard to believe there would be no gain, there would be tonnes of publicity. Of course, one reason Congress does not impeach is because so many are complicit in any crime they might charge Bush and cronies, so that would open a huge can of worms for nearly all of them. Kucinich and Ron Paul must be cleaner than boy scouts to dare be as outspoken as they are.
Clearly most members of our armed forces are showing courage of conviction both by carrying out the war as ordered and by protesting the war or protesting illegal detention and torture the warmongers have imposed upon the military.

sLiMsHaDy June 23rd, 2008 1:09 am ....Another reason to elect anyone but a Repub...Absolutely no doubt that MCCAIN WILL PARDON THE SHRUB.

Unfortunately half of those in Congress are war criminals themselves, what a farce impeachment would be.

Hope somebody saved Saddams rope for after the verdict, and they can be hanged one by one after a fair trial arranged by our One World Governments to get global support and show there is justice. Of course, it would pure theater - they won't actually hang or be punished, the criminals will be set up on nice ranches in Paraguay and live high off the hog as a reward for selling out Amerika to the globalists.

Nope. America is toast. The little people, despite their overwhelming strength in numbers, are just unable to overcome the scum that has risen to the top and rule us. They have been brainwashed by a socialized educational system who teaches them to be subservient to authority and not question anything. Conspiracies- ridiculous. And their religions have taught them to turn the other cheek and be gentle-men, except when requested to fight wars for the corporate ruling elite.

Chemicals in the food and water make them docile. MSM feed them propaganda and lies. Health insurance worries enslave them to their employers. Debt has made them into debt slaves. Many live from paycheck to paycheck and are terrorized to think of taking any action which might cost them a job. Since many have little savings after 30 years of having our jobs outsourced, while increasing population by 50% with immigration to suppress wages. Wages do not keep up with real inflation, due to the lies that are CPI.

Many more are now fearful of government, and dare not speak against them, even in comments posted anonymously, knowing IP's are being logged. Many people either work for government or corporations and institutions that are reliant on government for contracts or funding.

In such an environment, things can only get worse. Change will come, but for the worse. They might fool you for a couple of years when Obama gets in, give you a breather, trick you into thinking all is well now that the "neo-cons" are out. But they control both parties, and while tyranny may rest, it never leaves without a fight. The only fighting people do is do with each other, since they have perfected divide and rule to a science.

Good luck.

I agree with you , willybilly. The only possible path is now readily distinguishable. I think that the current congress SHOULD be willing to at least start the process, as it may provide some "cover" for those that I will just refer to as the "less complicit".

Text Guru has the right idea as well- we should become the agents that we wish to change rather than wait for those all ready in power to make any moves on our behalf.

One thing is true- where I was often dismissed as a raving fool for my political and other observations not long ago, I now find that people will not only listen, they will agree and express desire to take action. It might be a late start, but it IS a start and everyone should keep forcing the issues!

"Best way out of the dilemma is to surrender Bush and his gang to the Haag tribunal the day he leaves office."

I like that idea very much, daga 1, And, thanks neomunk for reminding us to remember the unseen eyes of the master criminals.

We should follow Cindy Sheehan's example, and not just contribute to her campaign -- those of us eligible to run for Congress should do so. I am not yet eligible, or I would do so.

One of the remedies available to us is to substitute ourselves for the Congresspeople who are refusing to do their jobs, uphold the Constitution, and represent us. Like impeachment, it is important for us to use the system before we embrace other avenues for change.

I'm sure many of you out there are taking this option -- keep it up! Just because you don't win the first time, the second time, or the fifth time, doesn't mean that you are not standing up for our values, or challenging the status quo. Give us options! Keep trying! It will take us, as progressives, a while to organize a movement by which we can support our cause and also provide for our members' sustenance -- but we can do it! It is possible! You can start by supporting community supported agriculture, your farmers' market, and getting to know those in your community who are willing to take public office to represent you.

We can be independent. We can advocate for local priorities, which do translate into global priorities. Maybe as individuals our impact is small, but as a collective, our impact can be large. We can build bridges.

Here's an idea -- connect with a progressive group in Iran. Organize monthly video conference calls so people can meet Iranians like themselves. It has been demonstrated over and over again that people are less likely to kill and bomb other people if they can identify with them.

Here's another idea -- lead critical thinking classes. You don't have to bill it as a progressive class -- but you give people the tools to incise through the misinformation and downright lies they are presented every day. Give them the tools to think, to change, and they will change.

Even if we assume that most people are motivated by self-interest, this is the right time to point out that self-interest lies in line with the country's interest in ceasing imperialist adventures, in investing in our infrastructure, and in enacting and enforcing regulations that will make the playing field more equal for all of us. Egalitarianism is a pretty substantive value in America -- appeal to it! Maybe people don't believe we should all do this together -- but at least they believe everyone should be able to line up at the same starting line.

Not easy for the congress to impeach Bush. They too are complicit in the war crimes. Political expediency should never transcend moral or legal obligation. To sustain the "Torturist in Command" with funds for his war crimes in order to win the coming election might seem like e good idea but in fact makes the democratic caucus complicit in Bush and Cheney's crimes against humanity.
Best way out of the dilemma is to surrender Bush and his gang to the Haag tribunal the day he leaves office.
Untill then the focus must be on preventing those maniacs from starting another war with Iran.

Agreed, BTW are you the real Slim Shady?

Impeachment must be started if only to show to the rest of the world that bushco's criminal actions are/were not condoned by the people.

It would be the starting point for a process that would be completed at the end of a rope. Impeachment = removal from office, followed by indictment (for treason), conviction, imprisonment, restitution, extradition (to The Hague),indictment "redux" (for crimes against humanity), conviction II, and then execution.

As for cheney and pelosi- impeach them ALL at once. It is correct that we would not want ANY of them ever to attain the office of the presidency ~ not even for a minute.

Would time run out on this maladministration before completion of impeachment? Probably. BUT there is NO justification whatsoever not to do it.

It MUST be done!

Remember the impeachment of Clinton? Every sordid detail was front page headline news for months. Every detail was absorbed daily as the media kept it formost in people's minds. Speculation on every detail kept the talking heads rambling on and on and Ken Starr was the hero of the day. So much has changed. As I remember from that horrible offence by Clinton, worthy of impeachment, did not kill or maim of deplete the economy. It is a matter of priorities. Profit versus Pornograhy. Take your pick.

Thomas More: The "American Dream" is a lie. It is based on greed and gluttony. Two of the 7 deadly sins. It's twisted and demented thinking that believes that unfettered greed is a good thing. Fascist.

A couple things:

"Why? Because we are unsure of ourselves. We all think that our opinions are valid. We immerse ourselves in media and social contacts that support our world view. We forget that every coin has two sides and then we find ourselves distracted by useless and pointless conflicts."

Well, the TRUTH only has one side... there are not TWO truths. Screw opinion! Give me some truth!

"No doubt, the process would be a painful one, but we're talking about the preservation of America - not just for ourselves and our progeny but also for the whole world."

The "Whole World" Does not need America... in fact, you've caused much more harm than good over the past century or so. Go home. Stay home.

"It is our responsibility to redirect our energies toward assuring that the American dream remains available to all the people of the world in perpetuity."

Again, who says we all want this so-called "American Dream" based on greed and glutony? I certainly don't. I think the unfettered pursuit of wealth is the most stupid thing someone could do. Again, the arrogance of Americans is staggering. In my opinion, the American way of life is NOT the best way of life. It's bad for people, bad for the planet and just plain old bad. Take your 'American Dream' and shove it.

...But a blowjob! Now THAT is something worthy of impeachment! Good thing americuns have their priorities straight!

Screw impeachment. Haul all of Bush Co. to the Hague for war crime trial. Those bastards had better be careful if they do any international travelling-- Rumsfeld & Bolton have already had a small taste of what's to come for these murderers.

"the American dream " is all crap, & deserves no respect whatever. Kowtowing to that discredited concept simply invites more belief in "American exceptionalism."

Only a small portion of the radical left believes excrement like this. The American dream may survive their attacks and surprise them yet.

I'm all for hearings, but live in the real world that has a constitution that requires 2/3 of the senate to impeach.

An impeachment of bush (if successful) would put cheney in the big chair both in ceremony and in reality.

4 months to try them both? don't think that's realistic.

Anything done that doesn't lead to stripping both of them, and then u got pelosi?

See what I mean? Pardons all around.

I say wait to see if there's a changing of the guard, and then have criminal trials, which many are drooling over, and no pardon opportunity.

If there's no change of the guard, i.e McCain wins and congress stays the same or worse, move to Venezuela, or Spain maybe. Europe isn't so bad, but getting more conservative. Who would have thunk France would go conservative during the bush admin? Canada too, look what's going on up there.

"Impeachment could:

• Lead to a trial for treason, a capital offense at a time of war."

....addressed above.

"• Exonerate the current administration."

...also addressed

"• End the war and begin an international law enforcement hunt for terrorists."

....with this congress? that's a stretch.

"• Lead to a recession ala post Vietnam."

....think that's inevitable anyway, if not already upon us.

"• Rob the Democrats of their coveted war powers presidency."

...don't see how that's gonna happen. needs a bit more expansion on that.

"• Bring our soldiers home to establish true homeland security."

....again, a pres pelosi and the current congress aren't going to do that so close to an election that hinges on the undecided.

Amateur article at best, but hey it's called common DREAMS.

Need to stop dreaming and start doing things that are actually possible in reality.

I can't help but think that if those in government who do have a conscience had stepped forward, if the M$M had pushed for impeachment, and if the House and Senate had done the bare minimum; the impeachment of both Bush and Cheney would have been an easy slam dunk.

It was the M$M that set the non-impeachment tone.

Thank you, fir this article. Finally Commondreams seem to be getting over their Obamrama fever.

Again, who on this thread who favors impeaching Bush and Cheney, has not yet donated to Cindy Sheehan's race against Pelosi?

I'm not slim shady, but I might just be Sparticus, if the need arose.

I guess I am already, in my own little (nearly useless, admittedly) way. I like to say keywords that trigger Echelon (how neat that Echelon went from conspiracy theory to paperwork proven fact, name intact) monitoring, like anthrax, jihad, osama, congress, pennsylvania avenue, etc. and then kindly remind the gentlemen or ladies listening to remember Nuremberg, and that I will laugh merrily the day their own jackboots swing scant inches from the floor.

Nothing big, I just like to remind the thugs of what they have to look forward to.

Oh, and for the record, nothing in this post constitutes a threat, and you fascist fucks know that. I believe in Rule of law, and will not take the law into my own hands violently.

sLiMsHaDy June 22nd, 2008 6:18 pm ...Could not agree with you more....But, it will not happen through those "normal" (now defunct) channels. WE MUST take it into our own hands. This is a good start:

www.votestrike.com

"Failing to even begin impeachment proceedings is ignoring the mandate of our Constitution. Illegally ignoring a mandate and the will of the American people is condoning the criminality of this administration and the complicity of the Congress"

Congress has placed itself at risk of impeachment by this nonfeisence.

An Impeachment which could:

• Lead to trials for treason, capital offenses at a time of war.

But who will 'bell' that cat?

Impeachment trivializes the war crimes. They should be tried, convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned (or worse).

^^^^ Ditto. Plus, in my estimation, it glosses quite lightly over the most essential reason for impeachment in relation to the precedents that are otherwise set if the crimes are allowed to stand unpunished and unrepudiated.

This article gets some things right, but has plenty of junk in it, too. Its general quality is not as good many comments that appear daily on CD.

The last sentence is silly & counterproductive. This stuff about "the American dream " is all crap, & deserves no respect whatever. Kowtowing to that discredited concept simply invites more belief in "American exceptionalism."

Keane also writes, "A case in point is the notion that the war in Iraq is "all about oil." This is obviously not true..."

-Well, actually, it is mostly true. It's about more than just oil, and it's more about controlling oil, natural gas, energy prices, & determining the currency oil is traded in. It's about projecting American power & controlling the global economy. But in any serious discussion of what the war is about, the word O-I-L must appear in the very first sentence. The war has nothing whatever to do with terrorism, democracy, freedom, or any of that Madison Avenue horsesh*t.

On the other hand, the article does get some important things right. It's pro-impeachment, and it does say that "Impeachment would also show the American people how close they are to the end game of corporate tyranny and neo-fascism. ...Through impeachment we might also redeem ourselves in the eyes of future generations. We would begin to re-establish the rule of constitutional law and also avoid a future of enslavement to a war-based world economy feeding a corporate machine lubricated by blood and poverty."
- Can't object to any of that.

Failing to even begin impeachment proceedings is ignoring the mandate of our Constitution. Illegally ignoring a mandate and the will of the American people is condoning the criminality of this administration and the complicity of the Congress; Democrats and Republicans alike. Condoning criminality creates a mockery of our justice system and the system of checks and balances. We the People have allowed and are allowing this to happen and are therefore accessories to the crime of genocide, the use of depleted uranium, the occupation of a sovereign nation, torture...infinitum.

Can anyone dispute my allegations?

:) yes- and I am ready to "stand up" - hopefully there are millions more just like me, who think like me, and act like me, and just might be me!

Umlaut:

"I say wait to see if there's a changing of the guard, and then have criminal trials, which many are drooling over, and no pardon opportunity."

Everyone's done nothing but wait since the Nazi invasion of Iraq and WW3 via Iran is the CENTERPIECE ON THE TABLE TILL JANUARY. Putting a few shits in jail is not the issue. Impeachment hearings (which you are "all for") have to start and build momentum, which means giving the benefit of the doubt to the catalysing reaction of adding big media attention to the documented criminal facts. As for the threat of a Cheney presidency there are options to avoid it, the most obvious being stretching out the trial, or impeaching him instead. Either way George under media interrogation can only wither like a vampire in the sun.