So Just Where Does the Madness End?
All the monsters buried in the mass graves of the civil war have been dug up
I am not sure what was the worse part of this week. Living in Lebanon? Or reading the outrageous words of George Bush? Several times, I have asked myself this question: have words lost their meaning?
So let’s start with lunch at the Cocteau restaurant in Beirut. Yes, it’s named after Jean Cocteau, and it is one of the chicest places in town. Magnificent flowers on the table, impeccable service, wonderful food. Yes, there was shooting at Sodeco — 20 yards away — the day before; yes, we were already worried about the virtual collapse of the Lebanese government, the humiliation of Sunni Muslims (and the Saudis) in the face of what we must acknowledge as a Hizbollah victory (don’t expect George Bush to understand this) and the danger of more street shooting. But I brought up the tiny matter of the little massacre in northern Lebanon in which 10 or 12 militiamen were captured and then murdered before being handed over to the Lebanese army. Their bodies were — I fear this is correct — mutilated after death.
“They deserved it,” the elegant woman on my left said. I was appalled, overwhelmed, disgusted, deeply saddened. How could she say such a thing? But this is Lebanon and a huge number of people — 62 by my count — have been killed in the past few days and all the monsters buried in the mass graves of the civil war have been dug up.
I chose escalope du veau at the Cocteau — I am sickened by how quickly I decided on it — and tried to explain to my dear Lebanese friends (and they are all dear to me) how much fury I have witnessed in Lebanon.
When Abed drove me up to the north of the country three days ago, bullets were spitting off the walls of Tripoli and one of the customs officials at the Syrian border asked me to stay with him and his friends because they were frightened. I did. They are OK.
But being from the wrong religion is suddenly crucial again. Who your driver is, what is the religion of your landlord, is suddenly a matter of immense importance.
Yesterday morning (and here I will spoil the story by telling the end of it), the schools reopened round my seafront apartment and I saw a woman in a hijab riding a bicycle down the Corniche and I took a call from my travel agent about my next trip to Europe — Beirut airport reopened — and I realised that Lebanon had “returned to normal”.
The roads were open again; the hooded gunmen had disappeared; the government had abandoned its confrontation with Hizbollah — the suspension of the Shia Muslim security chief at the airport (who bought me a bottle of champagne a year ago, I seem to remember — some Hizbollah “agent” he!) and the abandonment of the government’s demand to dismantle Hizbollah’s secret telecommunication system was a final seal of its failure — and I opened my newspaper and what did I read?
That George Bush declared in Jerusalem that “al-Qa’ida, Hizbollah and Hamas will be defeated, as Muslims across the region recognise the emptiness of the terrorists’ vision and the injustice of their cause”.
Where does the madness end? Where do words lose their meaning? Al-Qa’ida is not being defeated. Hizbollah has just won a domestic war in Lebanon, as total as Hamas’s war in Gaza. Afghanistan and Iraq and Lebanon and Gaza are hell disasters — I need no apology to quote Churchill’s description of 1948 Palestine yet again — and this foolish, stupid, vicious man is lying to the world yet again.
He holds a “closed door” meeting with Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara — a man stupendously unfit to run any Middle East “peace”, which is presumably why the meeting had to be “closed door” — but tells the world of the blessings of Israeli democracy. As if the Palestinians benefit from a democracy which is continuing to take from them the land which they have owned for generations.
Do we really have to accept this? Bush tells us that “we consider it a source of shame that the United Nations routinely passes more human rights resolutions against the freest democracy in the Middle East than any other nation in the world”.
The truth is that it is a source of shame that the United States continues to give unfettered permission to Israel to steal Palestinian land — which is why it should be a source of shame (to Washington) that the UN passes human rights resolutions against America’s only real ally in the region.
And what is Washington doing in the country where I live? It has sent one of its top generals to see the Lebanese army commander, signalling — a growing Fisk suspicion, this — that it has abandoned its support for the Lebanese government. The Americans promise more equipment for the Lebanese army.
Yes, always more equipment, more guns, more bullets to the Middle Eastern armies though — I have to say yet again (and I repeat that I do not like armies) — the Lebanese army saved us all this week. Its commander-in-chief, General Michel Sleiman, will become the next president and the Americans will support him and feel safe, as they always do, with a general in charge. “Chehabism”, as the Lebanese would say, has returned.
But I am not so sure. Sleiman gets on well with Damascus. He is not going to lead his soldiers into a pro-American war against Hizbollah. And the Lebanese are not going to join Bush’s insane “jihad” against the “world terror”.
There was a lovely moment in northern Lebanon this week - and here a big cheer for my brave friend Abed — when a Lebanese soldier at a checkpoint spotted me in our car and ran into the road.
“You are Mr Robert!” he shouted. “I have seen you on television! I read your book!” And he gave the thumbs-up sign. And I had to like this man. And I think he will fight for Lebanon. But I do not think he will fight for the Americans.
Robert Fisk’s new book, ‘The Age of the Warrior: Selected Writings‘, a selection of his Saturday columns in ‘The Independent’, is published by Fourth Estate
©independent.co.uk
Any government that cannot be controlled by American hegemony and hubris is a terrorist government no matter how good.Any government that is a sychophantic puppet, is a good government, no matter how bad
Well, Fisk, if it were up to you, I guess it would end with all the christians and jews of the region dead and hamas and hezbollah in complete control.
Obviously, Israel should have continued its war, and simply gone into Beirut and dealt with hezbollah once and for all. That’s when the madness would end.
The juxtaposition of the first two comments on this article points up the intractability of the problems in the Middle East. Those who hold such radically opposed views can never hope to find common ground. So the Middle East will continue its spiral into hell - and all the rest of us with them.
Israel lost–its army isnt the scary demon it was once thought to be. It has no discipline. Its fears another loss.
But it did a great job polluting the ocean.
It is ‘better to jaw-jaw than to war-war,’
Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (1874–1965)
remarks at a White House luncheon, June 26, 1954
Jewbacca May 17th, 2008 12:13 pm
Obviously, Israel should have continued its war, and simply gone into Beirut and dealt with hezbollah once and for all. That’s when the madness would end.
****
Advocating genocide on the sabbath. Well done oh defender of Isreal.
IMHO Robert Fisk has done some great work but is a bit full of himself. I am getting tired of reading about the tributes paid to him - in champagne or roadside praises - with a complete absence of acknowledgment of the accomplishments of Hizbollah. For a different perspective on life in Lebanon during the past critical ten days, see Franklin Lamb at counterpunch.
The madness NEVER ends. It merely shakes off any occasional temporary intrusion of sanity and moves on.
Unfortunately for any of Israel’s more grandiose plans, such as “simply go[ing] into Beirut and deal[ing] with hezbollah once and for all”, things turned out to be somewhat less “simple” than expected. As Israel’s Military Intelligence Chief, Major General Amos Yadlin, complained to the Israeli daily Haaretz this week, “Hezbollah proved that it was the strongest power in Lebanon […] and, had it wanted to take the government, it could have done so.”
The “best laid plans of mice and men” seem also to have gone awry in a number of other ways that are, perhaps, less obvious based on most of the superficial post-fiasco analysis. According to US Senate Intelligence Committee sources, the Bush administration initially green lighted the intended May 11 Israel ‘demonstration of solidarity’ with the pro-Bush administration militias. But, in the end, according to Congressional sources, both the U.S. and Israel got cold feet.
Various militias, including the smartly outfitted Hariri ‘Secure Plus’ with its distinctive maroon tee-shirts and beige trousers, (now know locally by some as ‘Secure Minus’ — a hoped for future Blackwater operation in Lebanon) disintegrated surprisingly quickly because many of its green recruits brought down from Tripoli felt misled and betrayed regarding their job description as they were handed weapons and instructed to fight Hezbollah. In the circumstances, Israel was not willing to proceed with the original Bush Administration idea which was to have Bush attend the May 15 Israel anniversary celebrations following the Israeli attack meant to hit Hezbollah hard, and give Bush the credit for coming to the dangerous region.
These recent events in Lebanon have been triggered quite deliberately with a view to destabilzing the country. They are part of the military roadmap intended to set the stage for a confrontation with Syria. And, in turn, all of this is, of course, merely a prelude to the much broader Israel-U.S. geopolitical strategy in the Middle East.
It is very important not to allow our view of the forest to be lost amongst the trees. In particular, non-USan readers here who are citizens of NATO countries should be very concerned about their own anticipated role in the overall scheme. Under NATO auspices, in liaison with the Pentagon, British, German, Turkish and French forces are slated to play a significant role in the case of an attack on Iran and Syria. Canada’s involvement seems uncertain, but you too may get dragged in if Harpo has anything to say about it.
Americans too smug in their self importance are constantly reminded of “American Exceptionalism”. Too many in this country forget our own history but clearly understand Zionism. Occupy some land where you want to live, throw the current residents out and kill those who do not want to leave.
So few Jews, from all over the world, are willing to accept the consequences of peace that those who do truly want peace are silenced forever. I learned about peace from the Jews in the fifties and sixties in New York and around the states. Most of my Jewish friends now are afraid to even discuss the state of their people, the separateness forced upon them and the coercive nature of their leadership. It is amazing to me to find this diaspora on the side of the Bush contingency and I have to believe that to many of these Jews it is even more appalling to them. Those Jews who chose to assimilate, are silenced by their lack of choices. They can either turn against their people, unforgivable, or revert to some new form of “converso” and hide their history, ala the “Inquisition” - unthinkable.
Maybe Jewbacca is one of Limbaugh’s secret plants, a conservative neo nazi religious extremist posing on Common Dreams to disrupt dialogue.
Or maybe he just has a violent bent and believes in beating children to make them obey.
The whole creation of Israel was based on creating a new injustice in the former Palestine. When people keep insisting that Arabs started the war, they are ignoring the war started with the removal of the Arabs and Palestinians to make room for the Jews.
It doesn’t mean that one should overlook violence on the Arab side. But neither should one overlook violence on Isreal’s side. Just look at the number of dead, much more Palistinians than Isrealis. And most are civlians, though that doesn’t seem to matter much for the so called civilized governments.
“Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither.”– Benjamin Franklin
Abolish religion!
Jewbacca is ignorant of history. Jews, Christians and Muslims lived together in peace in Palestine and today’s Lebanon for centuries, until they were divided by force! Sadly people like Jewbacca who learn their history form Fox News are brain washed into seeing a territorial war as a religious conflict. How do you think the good Christian residents of Long Island would react if the sizable Jewish community there declare their own independent state and start running them out of their commfortable homes? You don’t need to be mad or bad to fight for your home.
“So Just Where Does the Madness End?”
Obviously, it ends with the death of America.
The monsters-in-charge will be dug up, tried, convicted and re-buried with stakes in what’s called their hearts. Sic transit republica.
Moe, utter nonsense. Read some history, there was certainly not peaceful co-existence.
Check out in oparticular the Damascus blood libel of 1840, or the genocide of armenians in WWI.
Peace has never been in the middle east.
We have always been at war with Oceania.
“That George Bush declared in Jerusalem that “al-Qa’ida, Hizbollah and Hamas will be defeated, as Muslims across the region recognise the emptiness of the terrorists’ vision and the injustice of their cause”.
“Where does the madness end? Where do words lose their meaning? Al-Qa’ida is not being defeated. Hizbollah has just won a domestic war in Lebanon, as total as Hamas’s war in Gaza. Afghanistan and Iraq and Lebanon and Gaza are hell disasters — I need no apology to quote Churchill’s description of 1948 Palestine yet again — and this foolish, stupid, vicious man is lying to the world yet again”
The two questions Mr. Fisk asks is 1 Where does the madness end? 2 Where do words lose their meaning?
In his article Mr. Fisk explains the utter absurdity of George Dubyas latest rant against the Muslim people.
‘Do we really have to accept this? Bush tells us that “we consider it a source of shame that the United Nations routinely passes more human rights resolutions against the freest democracy in the Middle East than any other nation in the world’
Mr. Fisk is referring to Israel. Yes Israel is the largest human rights violator in the Middle-East. Yet Israel comes in second to the US in overall human rights violations. Don’t forget about South America, Central America, Abu Ghraib, Guantanimo, and secret renditions.
Mr. Fisk has lived in Lebanon for many years now. If there is anyone I can trust to give me the unguided thuth about what’s happening there Mr. Fisk is the one I’ll turn to.
Troubled
Moe May 17th, 2008 2:50 pm
Jewbacca is ignorant of history. Jews
And everything else. No way is that troll Jewish. He/she is a limbaugh clone/agent provacateur, nothing more. I’ll point out that this is the Jewish Sabbath, and if Jewbacca really was as much of a Zionist as he/she claims to be than the last thing he’d be doing is working on the day reserved for the worship of g-d.
“Have words lost their meaning?”
Hmmm… torture is now only torture is one dies from it, and then it’s just an “accident” that occurred during an “enhanced interrogation.”
Mercenaries - killers for cash - are now “private security contractors.” They even have their own “union.”
Illegal, aggressive invasions are now “wars.”
Illegal occupations are now “continuing wars.”
The Vice President is no longer “an entity within the executive branch,” in spite of the fact that he works for the chief executive.
Yes, Mr. Fisk - words have, in fact, lost all meaning…
As with most generalizations of people, it is stupid to place all Jews or Palestinians into a single monolithic population. Imagine being defined as simply an “American” (my apologies to our neighbors), rather than a liberal, conservative or other kind of American. The media and the powerful have sublimated the groups of these people without resistance from the majority of each. By making it so, it draws the obfuscation of all to choose either one side of the other. The fact is, many Jews and Arabs living all over the world inter-marry and share belief systems as routinely as other groups do. Until the majority parts of each group are willing to stand up and demand to be counted, the vicious attacks will continue, and the innocent will be forgotten. It serves neither interest to go along with this greatest of all miscalculations.
The American war machine rampages across the world while it waves the false flag of freedom and democracy. It is an ugly sight!
Robert Fisk is right. It is America that is the threat, not terrorists!
P.S. Should McCain wear a coonskin cap? Check my blog for details.
6 billion people on this planet, every one of them spouting their own personal ‘truth’. There’s so much hot air created in that way it is small wonder to me we have Global Warming. Our leaders actions are increasingly sociopathic, there seems to be no real intention to change the shameful results we live with….but they are certainly getting richer.
The madness will never end until people recognize what is causing it. There is a small group of rich and powerful families who have for centuries conspired to one end. The end is the end of nations, religion and family, with One World Government led by the King or Queen of the Psycopathic Luciferian Illuminati Elite. They have through the use of their agents who have been told only a part of the truth, infiltrated and now control virtually every institution, religous as well as government, and every major corporation.
They create problems and conflicts, then propose solutions that will cause greater problems and conflicts. They divide and conquer by pitting religions, races, sex, regions, etc against each other. They control the money, food and energy and use them as weapons against nations not under their control. They condition people to accept myths such as Global Warming and overpopulation by inducing famines, modifying the weather, and witholding oil so as to create the peak oil myth.
They openly meet at events like the Bilderbergers (coming June 6 in DC BTW)and TLC meetings, and are at the top levels of groups like the CFR and Masonry, and run the international agencies under the UN.
To kill the snake, one must cut off it’s head. The head is the top 6000 richest people on the planet and their families. The head is in danger only if people can see the snake in the room. So they will go to any extreme to prevent the masses from seeing it, and since they control MSM and Education, which makes up much of the worlds reality regarding to current and past events, it’s not that hard. The snake will continue to feed on it’s prey so long is it’s prey is unaware of it’s existence.
The United States Government is the largest terrorist organization on the planet and we are all going to pay dearly for it.
Re: Jewbacca May 17th, 2008 12:13 pm
Jewbacca must learn to do his sums.
There are 13,000,000 (13 million) jews worldwide, and 1,300,000,000 (1.3 billion) muslims.
You will never win; you are outnumbered 100 to 1.
Things are more or less stalemated right now, mainly because Israel has the US propping it up with buckets full of cash, weaponry and a loathsome voting record at the UN.
Living conditions for most Palestinians is awful, but being a jew in Israel is no picnic either. I know, I was there.
Common sense should tell you that Israel must start denouncing military force and bullying, and start relying on dialogue instead. It will take many decades and a few generations before you’ll see results, but dialogue is the only path that will lead to an acceptable solution.
Jews living outside Israel (like Jewbacca?)should stop fanning the flames. If you are too chicken to accept the reality of a rocket attack now and then, you have no business promoting violence over there, (even though you may have written a few cheques when things got a bit hairy).
If Israel were to start now, there might be observable improvements in their relationship with the Palestinians by the time this world is going to hell in a hand basket caused by irreversible climate change.
So; Armageddon, anyone?
I know how W would answer. And Joe Lieberman. And John McCain. And Mrs. Clinton. And Obama. And Congress.
Mazel tov, Jewbacca!
wood, the reason for the conflict is israel’s weaponry? Israel’s “buckets of cash”? That’s just absurd. The reason for this conflict is none of that, but rather arab aggression. You get the story half right but are totally off the mark with that stuff.
Yea, I’ve donated quite a bit to israel, and I’m hardly rich. I would go over there and fight if they needed me, which they don’t. I’d rather fight for the USA, but we haven’t fought in the american interest since WWII, if even that.
You say I am “too chicken to accept the reality of a few rocket attacks”. Well, maybe I am, but its not me that faces these attacks, its the citizens of Sederot and Ashkelon. I’ll let them decide what they can handle, and the israeli government has BETTER start listening. I’ve said israel is LONG overdue for a military coup, and a government which puts israelis first.
But good luck with that, they seem to be heading down the direction of america, i.e., totally ignoring the people’s needs.
I know muslims outnumber us, so did the nazis, the russians, the spanish, the babylonians, etc etc etc etc. God didn’t put us on earth to face easy bad guys. Some jews don’t seem to get this.
Mazel tov back at you
Jewbacca (I do love that name)
I don’t understand you. Any mention of the possibility that anyone of the Arab persuasion might be a human being with unalienable human rights and you explode with accusations of anti-semitism and insist the writer is calling for the destruction of all Israelis. You marginalize any salient point you might wish to make. I come here hoping for rational discussion but usually find myself disappointed, especially when you start spewing your vitriol (cool word, huh). I certainly suspect your anger has gotten the best of you. No doubt you will interpret this post as a call for napalming the flesh off Jewish babies and grandmothers. Your pervasive anger only serves to ruin your own health and nobody else (except maybe mikep) is convinced by your logical fallacies (straw man approach,
look it up). I know we could be friends and I’m sure you have something of value to contribute, but at this point I’m not sure what that would be. I apologize for those who bad-mouth you…that is not right and I may be guilty of it as well (sorry). But I beg you to consider the big picture. Yes, awful things have been done by SOME Palestinians and by SOME Israelis as well, but none of these people are born with guns in their hands and bombs strapped to their chests. Somebody puts them there and it is usually somebody with an angry, destructive attitude similar to your’s.
Violence has not worked. There are close to a billion Arabs and I don’t think it will be possible to kill them all. Why don’t YOU use some of that energy trying to come up with a real solution, especially as you seem to reject out of hand anything anyone else has tried to suggest. I pointed out to you earlier today that Jimmy Carter brokered a lasting peace between Egypt and Israel that did not require the slaughter of thousands and you ignored that fact. Egypt no longer espouses the destruction of Israel and Israel no longer wastes her money and children fighting Egypt.
What about that?
Jewbacca - you always drag out crap from hundreds of years ago to make some point about anti-Jewish violence or sentiments, and Jewish special-case arguments. The Blood Libel wasn’t quite as cut and dried either, and Jews also have been complicit in mass murders on others. In fact ethnic/religious/gender inspired mass murder are a long-standing tradition in many places and periods, among many peoples. You always oversimplify, forget about all the other stuff that surrounds these events - the rest of the historical context. What that does with your discourse is reduce it to jingoistic knee-jerk propaganda. Why don’t we go all the way back to Jericho, the first genocide in “recorded history”. Would that make any sense to you? Of course not. This is so much like the man who murdered his parents asking the court for leniency because he is an orphan.
plantman13–very excellent and eloquent post. Presence aka namaste–yours as well.
Medusa, you need to read the thread better. I was responding specifically to someone who said that before the state of israel existed, jews and muslims in the region got along fine. I was bringing up historical examples that shows this was not the case.
I am not saying that these events prove anything about muslims or arabs in modern times.
Plant: Where have I accused people of anti-semitism for “saying arabs are human”? For the record I’ve seen maybe two anti-semitic posts on all of commondreams since I’ve been posting, and most people disagreed with what the person (the arab guy who always talks about jewish noses) was saying. I think arabs are human. I think many arabs are very cruel humans, and this cruelty is most expressed towards jews. Nothing on this site speaks to my feelings on this issue, and certainly nothing on this site refutes it. I do not want to “kill them all”, meaning the arabs.
But I woukd prefer, VASTLY, endless war to my greatest nightmare: the arabs attack israel and israel, because of interference or weakness, cannot or does not fight back. I’d rather fight and lose for ten thousand more years then ever deal with that. I bet the arabs feel the same too. Why do you guys care about this conflict so much? It will never end.
Plant, and let me respond to what you said about Egypt.
Good point, but as you might guess I have a wet blanket to throw on this fire. Jimmy Carter did NOT make a deal with Egypt. Jimmy Carter made a deal with Anwar Sadat, who was then shot by his own people. I bet if you polled the average Egyptian, they would say they want war with israel and a repudiation of the peace treaty. In fact, I have the feeling these polls have already been done. Mubarak is also the same, in that he does not represent his people. Israel may have a peace deal with the Egyptian government, but if that government ever falls, peace will be gone instantly.
Arabs and peace do not mix. Learn something about their culture and history. They will fight israel for ten thousand years before they allow it to live in peace.
Jewbacca said - “Arabs and peace do not mix. Learn something about their culture and history.”
1) If you look at human history, you would find that for the most part it’s just plain people and
peace that do not mix, with the possible exception of Hopi and Quakers. Certainly we have
written, biblical evidence of the non-peaceful nature of humans in the Middle East; Angor Wat
shows scenes of South and Southeast Asian non-peaceful activities; the same is true in Aztec and
other cultures in the Americas, and we’re all aware of the European/American penchant for
violence at astonishing levels.
But some of these people have or are trying to put this vicious cycle of history behind them.
Not a bad idea for everyone.
2) If you looked at the years between 1000 and 1492, the Islamic civilization, especially in
Andalusia, was far more peaceful and educated than that of the rest of Europe and the treatment
of Jews was far better.
3) You may think that you are looking at history in order to discover the truth from which you
are developing your position. But that isn’t usually what happens. Many people derive their
conclusions from the opinions of people and the culture around them.
Instead I would suggest that you decide what outcome you really want, and then see if you can
support it with historical examples.
I contend that it depends on what point you want to make, as to which part of history you want to
look. The good news is that no matter which point you want to make, you can find historical
support. Decide what outcome you want, find the history to support it (and that isn’t always
easy, given the predelection for war our current society has,) and then work towards that end in
the sure knowledge that it too is possible.
Jewbacca, do I have to again post quotes from other threads where you express the opinion that Isreal’s army should go after Hamas and wipe them out? You don’t live in Isreal, but are far too willing to shed the blood of others to justify your own bigotry. I highly doubt your claim to being a jew at all considering the apocolyptic nature of some of the things you have said. Your words read like something Hagee would pen.
Mike, well I never thought my posts would be so carefully poured over. Obviously, hezbollah started the lebanon war, this is true regardless of what I say on here. It’s rich you calling me racist, considering what you often say about jews.
Orphanage in hebron?
skippy, absolutely, it should be israel v. hamas to the last soldier. Thanks for comparing me to the eloquent John Hagee, by the way.
well, what can I say? isn’t one life lost is enough to stop the wold turning? I mean if your child was kill because of the war, wouldn’t that be a tragedy for you? If you only have one child and she or he dies because of the occupation, wouldn’t that promp you to strap explosive to yourself and be a suicide bomber, I would instantly. Yes I would be an “arab” like jewbacca say. I would be an Iraqi, I would be anyone faction out there. Believe me. I would blow you, jews, american or whoever you terorist be.
Yep, ~ALDO~ just like it was in Northern Ireland. ___ An eye for an eye.
The killing of children and adults will continue unabated, until every American soldier or Blackwter troop is out of the Mid-east region.
This is exactly what is going on in the Mid-east. an eye for an eye, that is how desperate people are. Imagine, you have no way to leave the country, just like in New Orlean here in the U.S. when Katrina hit. You are stuck there and can’t leave, you face the occupation and they are coming after you and your family. Can you imagine the terror. what do you do? you have no money and you can’t leave. What do you do, walk in the desert to the next country just to be turn back? My coment was to make you people realized how critical is the situation for each individual. I am not suporting terrorist activities, and I am sorry if I sound like that, but this is what they face on a daily basis everywhere in Soudan, Niger, Iraq and the list is very long, too long. It seem to me that we are not living in a civilized world.
Jewbacca May 17th, 2008 12:13 pm
Obviously, Israel should have continued its war, and simply gone into Beirut and dealt with hezbollah once and for all. That’s when the madness would end.
Jew Boy: Israel no longer has the capacity to act as a bully and can no longer win any war. Despite US’s unlimited military and financial support, Israel was defeated during 2006 Lebanon offensive by a Brigade of Hezbollah fighters. So, without US support Israel wouldn’t last more than few days in any serious confrontation. As to your twisted views about Arabs and Muslims, I refer you to the bloody history of Israel. According to historical facts the current so-called Jews are no descendants of Biblical Israelis, but Mongol Turks “All of the Khazars are Jews. But they have been Judaized recently.” According to - Ibn al-Faqih, a 10th Century Author. Their Mongol genes are obviously demonstrated since 1930s through their ruthlessness and blood thirsty leaders. Alas, who lives by the sward dies by the sward, so the survival prospects for the state of Israel are very hopeless indeed.
In the past century, we heard the phony claims of modern Jews as being children of Jacob, an absolute sham concocted by the Ashkenazi Zionist thugs “immigrants from Crimea and Russia” descendants of Turkic tribes of Khazaras. Those people have no relation whatsoever with Jacob or Abraham since they aren’t Semitic, but ethnic Mongols and their facial features clearly show that fact “the hook shape noses, check bones and so forth. Imagine Godless ruthless butchers like Ariel Sharon, Netanyahu, Mofaz or Ehud Barak being descendant of Prophet Jacob?
According to Kevin Alan Brook:
“It is certain that Khazar Jews lived in Phanagoria (Tmutorokan), since over sixty tombstones bearing Jewish symbols (such as seven-branched menorahs, shofars, and lulavs) on one side and Turkic tribe symbols (tamgas) on the other side were found on the Taman peninsula. Many of these tombstones date from the eighth or ninth century. Khazarian tombstones on the Crimean peninsula also depict the shofar, menorah, and staff of Aaron, as well as Turkic tribe symbols… The artifacts from Taman and Crimea are extremely significant since their tamgas show that these Jews were ethnic Turks.” - Kevin Alan Brook, in The Jews of Khazaria (Jason Aronson, 1999), page 142
I keep wondering; how on earth a bunch of low-life Eastern European thugs can fool the world for as long as they have? When would the world confront the truth to end this sham and stop this abusive little illegal entity to take the planet toward destruction?
Words do matter. For example, the word “semite,” instead of meaning “Jewish person,” is a reference to a varied group of people, connected to one another by a common ancestry of language. That is, semites are, besides Jewish people, Arabic peoples, which means that to be anti-semitic means not to be against Jews only, but to also be against Arabs.
Maybe we could all be try to be pro-semitic, instead of anti-semitic, and be concerned with the welfare of the people of Israel AND Palestine.
Or we could try to be like Jewbacca, and advocate the wiping out of one faction of the world’s semites, in order to advance the cause of another faction of them. What would you call that, partially anti-semitic? Partially pro-semitic? I don’t know.
isn’t one life lost is enough to stop the wold turning? I mean if your child was kill because of the war, wouldn’t that be a tragedy for you? If you only have one child and she or he dies because of the occupation, wouldn’t that promp you to strap explosive to yourself and be a suicide bomber, I would instantly.
Au contraire, the death of children doesn’t stop the world from turning, it’s what keeps it going. Jewbacca would gladly kill Arab children. Of course Al Qaeda would do the same to Jewish children. Hell, the Catholic Church rapes Catholic children. The Taliban outlawed music and flying kites.
No army in the world apologizes when it kills children. We send them to school, where they learn to serve the system. But this is only after their parents have taught them to obey. After all the political pedocide, statistics show that most child abuse goes on in the home.
I once read that a functional system serves the needs of its members, whereas in a dysfunctional system, the members serve the system.
Without the murder of children (physical murder if they won’t allow their souls to be murdered) civilization as we know it would collapse. Where do you think all the zombies that sit around eating hamburgers and watching American Idol come from? Hell, why do you think they sit around eating hamburgers and watching American Idol? They’re dead! And the dead hate the living (children).
The blood of children is the mortar of our cities and the lubricant of our machines. The “Holy Land” is a prime example. We’ve really only covered our barbarism with fancy words and shiny technology.
Ticonderoga and barely, you both say I advocate killing all arabs and killing children, both of which charges are utter nonsense. YOU come far closer to advocating this stuff, simply by supporting the arab side.
Point me out where I’ve called for anything like you claim I do. You guys try to put this conflict into neat tidy boxes, but its not that simple.
Jewbacca May 16th, 2008 3:32 pm
[From the other Isreali topic this week]
I agree, tit for tat is worthless. Its time to go into gaza with full ground forces and fight it out to the death with hamas.
*****
Do you really believe that sending an army into Gaza to ‘fight it out to the death’ would not result in the deaths of children? You are a fool, most of the civilians killed by the usa in Iraq happen to be children. That is the result of using an army to attempt to force obediance, the result is death and destruction; with a side of hatred and vengence. I’ll admit you don’t call for the deaths for all arabs, after all it’s people like you who are quite content to fight with other people’s lives for the next ten thousand years. Pray tell, how are you going to pay for that war; other people’s money, perhaps?
By the way, you do realise that the ‘eloquent John Hagee’ advocates forced conversion of the jews? Don’t you? He’s also in favour of a larger holocaust than the Nazi’s orchestrated, that psycho has wet dreams about slaughtering 90 percent of the freaking human race and you thank me for comparing you to him?
Jewbacca, you are evil.
In NOV lets stop the madness. VOTE FOR PRO AMERICAN ONLY. Not leibemans or the rest who do nothing but put Israel first. That simple things will stop the madness. And shut down FOX
skippy, It would result in the deaths of lots of israeli children too, from hamas’s inevitable retaliation. So don’t feel too bad about it! I don’t want kids to die, which is why I support the quickest and most decisive end to this war. You seem to want to drag it out. I’m ready to fight forever, and so are the rest of the jewish people (for the most part), but of course if I could have it another way I would. I’m just not sure its in any way up to us.
Hagee proposes nothing like what you say, where do you come up with that stuff?
The quickest way to end a war is to negotiate peace. Attempting to slaughter all the members of Hamas would result in the deaths of thousands, and be as effective as using sand to hold back the ocean’s rising tide. Do you know how effective the British were at wiping out the IRA? The IRA killed thousands, yet despite the fact that they hated the brits, a negotiated peace was worked out.
The usa has sent its army into Afghanistan and Iraq with the express purpose of killing every member of Al-Quada, how’s that working out for you? Got them all yet? Captured the leaders have you? Launching two wars hasn’t had the effect of promoting the terrorist group and bolstering their membership has it? Trying to kill them all didn’t seem to cause them much worry did it? Your own armies have failed to accomplish what you propose the Isreali army attempt. That attempt to use an army to wipe out terrorism has nearly bankrupted the usa, yet you think that it’ll work for Isreal. Yah, you’re totally rational. Completly sane…
John Hagee preaches the ‘end time’ gospel of Revelations (a psychotic acid trip of a book, that one.) He is one of those fundy preachers who believes that Jesus Christ will return to the earth and kill everyone who’s not faithful to him, and rule with a ‘rod of iron’ for a thousand years.
Skippy, the difference between this and the IRA, is the the brits, if worse came to worse, could always just go back to Britain! The israelis have no such option, the front line is on their very doorstep and their backs are to the sea. Also, the cultural difference between the IRA and british public in general were nowhere near the gulf that separates arab and israeli. Its just not the same conflict.
We have totally screwed up Afghanistan, had we concentrated there instead of going into iraq, we might very well have things under some semblance of control. As it is now, with the idiots we have running things, who knows what could have been in Afghanistan?
I don’t care what these guys think the messiah is going to do. They are wrong, and its not like they are telling people to go out and kill, unlike so many muslim imams.
Bwa ha ha ha!
You think the Isreali gov’t and army are more competant and skilled than the us army was before Iraq? Didn’t Olmert launch a short war in 2006 against Lebanon? How well did that go?
You’re a freaking arm chair general, in another post you did say that you’d join the us army if they needed you. Well, guess what, they do. If you’re under 42 and want to kill ‘terrorists’ what on earth is stopping you from joining? Cowardice perhaps? If you go to Iraq you may have the chance to pay back one of those Muslim Imans who’re telling people to go out and kill. Think of all the Isreali babies you can save by killing people in Iraq or Afghanistan, do it for Isreal, do it for the USA! Join now, see the world, and kill people. Put your own money where your keyboard is.
Hagee wants god to do what he’s not willing to do (kill others), you want soldiers to do the same.
YOU come far closer to advocating this stuff, simply by supporting the arab side.
I didn’t say I support “the” Arab side. You assumed, because of your apparent unreasonable bias. Israel has as much right to exist as any other state. As long as a state defers to its citizens (in Israel’s case, both Jewish and Arabic) and treats them well, it has every right to exist. What I do oppose is adults’ willingness (often eagerness) to “accidentally” kill children in order to preserve their governments, economies, religions, and cultures. In case it isn’t apparent to you, that means I oppose Arabic terrorism. And if you can’t imagine how I could oppose both Arabs killing Jewish children and Jews killing Arab children, then you need either psychotherapy or a logic class.
Jewbacca, if you’d read my post more carefully, you would understand that my point is that we shouldn’t support one side over the other but, instead, work to bring peace between the two sides.
On the other hand, you have said that it’s impossible to have peace in the Middle East and you have also said that Israel should go into Palestine and finish the job, once and for all.
I’m willing to admit that both sides in the Israeli/Palestine conflict have done wrong, and that both need to admit this and try to make peace between themselves, while you seem to think that only Palestine has done anything wrong. If I’ve misunderstood you, please tell me how. If I’ve understood you correctly, please admit it. Thank you.
skippy, I was actually talking about the israeli army. I wouldn’t even consider joining the US army under its current leadership. But give me a break with this, this is just you trying to silence me and I could turn it right around and tell you to go join hamas.
Barely, ok, fair enough. But when you talk about what the israelis are trying to preserve, remember that they are trying to preserve their LIVES as well.
ticonderoga, I don’t know what israel can do to address its wrongs. I can believe there was some wrong done by israelis in 1948, but since then all of this supposed “wrong” has been in response to incessant attacks upon their civilian population. Israeli retaliation for these attacks has killed thousands of civilians, and I don’t know if there is a “better way”. I suppose there might be things israel could be doing behind the scenes that it isn’t doing. Promoting a clear dialog with hamas would be one. Being honest about their agreements and intentions would be another.
But in the great moral scheme of things, I don’t see israel as doing or promoting anything LIKE what the majority of the arab world does. They are quite clear about wanting the genocide of israelis, what are israelis quite clear about? They want to avoid this… I don’t see the aggressive hate that exists towards israel reciprocated by israel.
Jewbacca - well that was 165 years ago - you should be over it by now.
Jewbacca, I’m not the one who’s urging the army to be used to settle disputes, or hunt terrorists. That’s all you. It’s quite fair that I’d ask you to take up arms when you’re the one advocating the use of force. I’m ex-military, I have heard many a fool say that all that is needed is a few more soldiers to charge the enemy, not one of those asshat chickenhawks are willing to join that charge they claim is needed.
I do think you are misunderstanding what I and many others have posted, no rational individual denies that Isreal has the right to exist, what I and many others say, is that they don’t have the right to claim to be a civilized state when they act in the barbaric manner they do. I have no qualms with the idea of killing terrorists, but do have a great objection when the force used to kill the terrorist kills innocent children, or adults trying to live their lives in peace. I especially dislike the bush principle that does the opposite of what he claims to desire; the reduction of terrorism. I don’t like people who decide that war is a great way to gain resources or territory for their own nations. You say that Isreal and the usa are fighting to preserve their lives, yet the way they’re going about preserving their own lives is killing tens of thousands. They’re sowing the wind and expect not to see any whirlwinds…
“I don’t see the aggressive hate that exists towards israel reciprocated by israel.”
If that statement of yours is true, you have not looked or are unwilling to see. Both sides are as bad as the other, not very surprising when the extremists are in charge of the arms.
I see now why the Lord gave the 10 comandments to the jews, WRITTEN IN STONE!
For most of us, morals are common sence, like “Thou shelt not kill.” Refers to arabs also. “Thou shelt not bare false witness.” WMD’s or other lies. “Thou shelt not steal.” Arab lands homes and olive trees included.
I’ll give the Jews credit, they do keep the Sabbath, and exept maybe for money and military might, they don’t worship other Gods, but I doubt if this will keep them from reaping what they have sown.
Namaste
Jewbacca, old buddy:
(I feel I can call you this since we have had more conversation in the past two days than I have had with 98% of the people I have known for the past ten years…and damn good conversation at that…quite stimulating.)
You’re right. You have never called for the murder of children or defenseless oldsters. You have never called for the complete extermination of Arab-kind. BUT…the point I have been trying to make is this will be the actual result of the endless war you propose whether you want that or not…and it will be your children as well as mine.
You wondered what concern it was of the rest of us who are not directly involved anyhow.
But we are directly involved. My tax money is being used without my consent to manufacture the instruments of collateral damage. My children are being lured with jingoistic rhetoric to the perpetration of this travesty.
My country has become a serial killer along with Israel, Palestine, Iran, Iraq etc, etc, etc. and that is my concern.
I realize you are not going to read my posts and suddenly say,”gosh, plant…how could I have been so wrong?” I despair of ever convincing you that violence is contraindicative (damn I love big words)despite
the repetitive example of history that this is the case. I simply ask you to reconsider. Retaliation is getting us nowhere and your argument that failure to retaliate shows weakness has also failed to prevent the other side from perpetrating the next atrocity. It is time to think outside of …well, you know…I hate to repeat cliches.
Anyway, as Ten Bears said, it is good that we meet here on the field of conflict to try our steel. You have certainly stimulated me to thought.
Lee Woodson:
That is the most ridiculous tripe I have heard since I read Mein Kampf. Next you will tell me the Aztecs are ancestors of the master race because there are swastikas on their funerary equipment. I am ashamed that these “progressive” posters have let you get away with this drivel while ganging up on Jewbacca. Perhaps they were too stunned to know how to answer this idiotic thread…so I will.
Anybody can write a book, including Kevin Alan Brook. So what? The anecdotal evidence you proffer is without merit. The fact that you resort to name-calling shows your argument to be bereft of any intellectual content. Show me the DNA!! I have a “hooked” nose and all my ancestors came from Norway.
Anybody can become a Jew. Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Jew. Go to Temple and study and you too can join the chosen ones so your foolish rant is meaningless. Juda is comprised of many different ethnic types and I’m sure there are a few Turks, Kazaks and Mongols (who are wonderful people by the way) in there too. So what?
DNA evidence shows that ALL men have a common ancestor who lived 60,000 years ago on the southeast plains of Africa. He was black! The differences between human beings you contend
are imaginary. We are all the same species, otherwise we could not make babies together. Your sperm can fertilize (in theory) any female Homo sapien ovum on the planet…so what you and Kevin Alan Brook say is crap.
Jewbacca, thank you for the honest reply.
It seems to me that what is going on is that Israel and Palestine are in some sort of “Mexican stand-off,” to use an old cliche, pointing guns at each other, with neither side being willing to be the first to drop their guns and sit down and talk. When you’ve got a situation like this, it seems to me that the first to drop their gun should be the strongest, and Israel is by far the stronger of the two. So, I think that Israel should try to initiate peace talks with Palestine, and one of the first things that should be done first is to initiate a ceasefire. And both sides should then try really hard to abide by the ceasefire so that talks can proceed. Now, I could dig through the history of previous Israel/Palestine ceasefires and point out that in the past Israel broke the ceasefires first at least as many times as Palestine did, but that’s all in the past, so it doesn’t really matter now. What matters now is that both sides put their guns down and try again, and this time try really hard.
You may disagree with me on this, perhaps thinking that such a thing is impossible, but I think that when constant strife is the only alternative, such a negative attitude has to be discarded.
Again, thank you for the sincere response.
I am a Christian who has rejected the Bible because it is a propaganda tool used by despots to justify war, murder, genocide etc. The Old Testament records god ordering the Jews to murder every person living on the land supposedly given to the Jews by god, which they obediently did. No wonder the Jews are so afraid and violent. Their tradition is to force people off their land violently, which always causes “blow-back”, not to mention karma.
But all three faiths that came from the Bible, Muslim, Jewish and Christian have performed according to that playbook, each one claiming god is on their side.
The Bible is like a curse laid on mankind from which we need a true spiritual healing.
No one can kill the “other” without turning into a murderer and carrying that mistake or sin back home to taint their own people with the blood of their victims.
I don’t know if Jesus really lived or simply is the personification of the energy of love and compassion in the universe that everyone cries for. But I do know that arguing over who is to blame for the mess we are creating only prolongs the suffering.
Rev. Judy…baby!!!
You are a real hottie. Let’s get married!
As Bob Dylan said,”if God’s on our side, he’ll stop the next war.” She didn’t…so I guess she’s not on our side.
You’re right. The blame game solves nothing.
When the game is finished, the madness continues because whoever ends up holding the blame, self-justifies and then continues to behave in the same old fashion. (Hey, I’ll take the blame if we can just move on from this insanity.)
Here’s a thought. What if the next time Hamas fires a rocket into a kibbutz, Israel was to announce they were not going to retaliate? How about if Israel announced that they were going to buy food with the several million bucks they would have spent on death ordinance and give it to the Palestinians…without any expectations in return? What if they did it again when the next attack happened…and again…and again? It seems to me that eventually Hamas would have a hard time finding
people willing to carry out their attacks. Its awfully difficult to keep loading up missles to fire off at people who have shown only good will. Yes, there would be a period of suspicion
where the attacks would continue and some innocent people would be injured or killed, but at the present time thats happening anyway.
These missle attacks actually kill fewer people then are killed every liquored-up Saturday night by citizens of the same country.
I suspect it would not be too long until the ugly cycle is broken. Now I know Jewbacca will dis me on this one. I can almost hear it now…
how those murderous Arabs will just keep on.
But that would be pure speculation as nobody has tried this idea and the symmetry-breaking quantum wave-function could go either way. If it fails then they could go back to the slaughter with hardly a beat skipped.
I know the religious fanatics wouldn’t like this idea because they want to facilitate Jesus’ return…but I’ve got news;Jesus is dead.
Has been for almost 2000 years and he ain’t comin back!
Jewbacca,
Please rest.
Visit places where people understand you. Read different points of view. We all need some peace.
If we ignore you, will you get a life?
Are you really being productive here?
Your anger is bringing you down. You can’t see this though and you think you are making a contribution. The more you write, the more immature you prove to be.
Plant, please realize that I do think about the stuff that you say, and I in fact wish that what you say is true. Sometimes I let myself believe it but that’s just for a short time, reality comes crashing in pretty soon. I do honestly believe that, given the nature of israel’s enemies, endless war is in the cards. Israel can either win this war and exist, or lose it and not exist. Now, the debate on whether and how much we should be involved is a different one. I certainly don’t think american troops should be playing any role at all, nor should we be in Iraq. I don’t even agree with all of Bush’s decisions to support israel, as there have been times in the past (I can’t even remember there has been so much back and forth in this conflict)when israel could have it least tried the non-retaliatory route. As to your second post, about buying food for the palestinians. I again, REALLY wish that sort of thing would work, but as you pointed out, you know I think it won’t. And, I think it would only damage israel’s image, as weird as that might sound to you.
Ticonderoga, I actually agree with you, and I’m always all for talking. I would have talked to Hitler, Stalin, Mao, President Ahamalaama in Iran, and any other sort of person. I think I know what hamas is going to say, but I’m not 100% sure on that. If I were israel, I would always try and negotiate, and I would conduct all negotiations in good faith and be honest with the other side about my intentions. If israel isn’t doing this, and I don’t know if they are or not, then its a serious flaw on their part that is getting citizens killed. But again, I just don’t know.
Mr. Fisk-
You ordered “escalope du veau” and were “sickened by how quickly you decided on it!” I am too. And I will never feel quite the same about your reporting after reading this, because your being sickened tells me that you know how the young calf suffered by being chained to a small pen–not able to move–being fed only milk–and then slaughtered so that you could have your “escalope du veau!”
Excuse me, but I think you are a hypocrite!!!!
“Skippy, the difference between this and the IRA, is the the brits, if worse came to worse, could always just go back to Britain! The israelis have no such option, the front line is on their very doorstep and their backs are to the sea. Also, the cultural difference between …blah blah blah…
What’s this more “chosen people” crap?
You seem to forget that the majority of jewish immigrants to Palestine hold dual citizenships so don’t hand out that swill that the poor victimized zionists walked to Palestine with no help from thousands of jewish organizations & Theodore Herzle’s master plan..which does include the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, which is ultimately hate of anyone not of your (what do you call your group? a clan? )certainly it may have started as a religion but as I’ve repeated incessessently & you ignore assiduously and refuse to validate is that most israeli jews identify themselves as atheists.
As to the poster above who claims that Israel has a right to exist I humbly disagree, the world was much better off before the Brits, USA & UN intruded in Palestine and imposed the partition.
Israelis have no love of Palestine, as proof I offer the destruction of olive & other fruit trees, the desecration of sites that are holy to religions that are not jewish such as digging tunnels under the Dome of the Rock, spoiling the environment with a 18 foot electrified, “fence” (Orwell would love that - calling a wall with guard towers, wide enough to drive on a fence.
If Israel weren’t so caught in the vicious circle of barbarity maybe their words would mean something but we all know when they talk about peace - they mean peace for the chosen ones and prison, torture, exile and murder for their “cousins”.
If after 60 years Israel can’t establish borders or write a constitution I think the whole experiment should be scrapped as one of the worst experiments in human history.
Justice for Palestine. And equality for Palestinians.
All Israelis would have to do is be truthful, and quit it’s love affair with murder and destruction. Or is that the only way they know to keep the cash rolling in?
You weren’t one of those cheering, dancing Israelis who enjoyed the destruction of the world trade center are you? I have to wonder the way you gloat at the very thought of more murders & chaos.
Btw, the 2 state solution is dead, the Israelis have ruined that option with jew only roads, illegal squatters, theft of Pal land and the discriminatory laws that the Iz supreme court upholds.
Just exactly where in the world except Palestine are the zionists in danger?
The Jews new religion is holocaust worship.
bellthecat:
Most of what I said to Jewbacca earlier applies to you as well (although I don’t think I like you as much.)Hopefully, your type of divisive claptrap has seen its peak and will now start to fade into the oblivion it merits.
You seem to have lost your compassion somewhere along the way. Try to remember where it was you last had it and retrace your steps. If you are lucky it may still be there for you to reclaim.
Sorry Plantman, I’m married nearly 34 years and very happy! (thankfully)
Your point is good. if the US and Israel spend time and money building hospitals and homes for the Palestinians instead of supplying more bulldozers to mow down innocent Palestinians, they would stop sacrificing themselves as suicide bombers.
Whoever thinks that they are doing it because of ideology is very mistaken. They become suicide bombers because of the utter desperation of their lives.
An old wound will never heal if it is constantly scratched. It must be nurtured and left in peace.
Certainly people like Jewbacca, who are cynical and vengeful will constantly urge retaliation, like the Hatfields and McCoys who finally killed each other off in their feud.
I am sorry that my children and theirs will have to deal with the devastation we have allowed the corporations to create on our planet while they kept us busy hating each other. The oldest trick in the world, divide and conquer. It is so easy to enflame hate for the “other” while the ruling class takes everything we cherish.
Now I remember why I quit this site before - the TROLLS. And you guys insist on feeding them - and wonder why so many keep popping up? Give me a break.
Good riddance, CD. Enough is enough.
Army brat - I hear you. I quit this joint a while ago. For some reason I have ventured back and nothing has changed.
Remind me someone -
why do we bother going back and forth like a bunch of mad kids?
Oh yeah, everyone wants to be right.
In fact, we are all so addicted to being right we can’t even see another POV.
And if you or anyone else get in my way, well I’ll show you.
Move over and let me tell you what you need to know is the common attitude around here.
Geez.
Getting back to the subject, let’s talk about George Dubbya’s tour of the Middle East, and the Lebanon.
The Lebanon was racked by civil war decades ago, and it had much to do with US interference in the area. Until the US realises, that they cannot influence politics any more, then the wars will continue. If you discount the totalitarian countries who are our allies - Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen - and the recent attempts to install puppet regimes - Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan - then there are very few countries left, who have been allowed to develop democratic governments.
At this very point in time, Bush is continuing his efforts, to further alienate Iran from it’s neighbours, in order to make an attack more feasible.
Bush fails to see any difference between Al Quaeda and Hamas or Hezbollah. In the Middle East, particularly Syria, Lebanon and Palestine, both Hamas and Hezbollah are regarded as the only factions which provide support to ordinary people. The US political stance, so heavily weighted in favour of Israel, has left ordinary Arabs feeling that the international community has forgotten them.
The US foreign policy in the Middle East, has created a vacuum, caused by a failure to adopt an even handed approach to the situation. The vacuum has been filled, by extremist groups who need not have existed if only we had shown integrity in the first place.
armybrat, heynow
What’s wrong with a little healthy debate? There has not been enough lately. In answer to your question “why” I refer you to my paraphrase of Ten Bears above.
There is nothing wrong with healthy debate; unfortunately there isn’t much of that. To have a healthy debate you need people that are in honestly searching for truth. Instead we see primarily reflected today the rhetorical use of words to voice preconceived ideas which only frustrates any progress toward “truth” or even discover the domain of ones own ignorance.
My heart cries out for all the innocence caught up in the machinations of war that is not of their choosing no matter which side they are on and there is no right side to war.
In modern warfare 9 out of 10 casualties are civilians the most vulnerable of which are children. Every war represents ultimately a failure; as technology has increase the capacity for destruction this continued failure can only lead to the extinction of the species.
Recently I watched “shake hands withe the devil”, the Roméo Dallaire story concerning the genocide in Rwanda. As a line of from the movie states, once war starts it takes on a life of it’s own and is very difficult to stop. The Jewish people suffered unspeakable suffering but examples such as Rwanda, what is going on in Iraq today, or the genocide of the indigenous peoples around the world including those here in America give mute testimony to the price of empire no matter who the oppressors may be.
Oppressors become victims and the victims become oppressors in a endless cycle of death and violence; for what? So rich men can get richer through profiteering? So we can further some obsolete ideology , religion, or nationalistic cause that in the final measure never benefits the people caught up in it.
If people want peace they need to stop promoting war.
I appreciate Common Dreams; that does not necessarily include this forum. I am quite sure many who frequent these pages come here in a honest search for truth even though that sentiment may not be reflected here.
g
The Zionist troll Jewbacca states with his usual supremacist sneer, “Arabs and peace do not mix. Learn something about their culture and history.”
He was referring to Sadat being shot by Egyptians after making peace.
He has apparently forgotten what happened to Rabin. And why. And how his murderer is considered a hero to many here and in Israel.
How black is that pot, kettle?
I agree that Fisk can sometimes be somewhat full of himself, but I cut him some slack considering the constant possibility of sudden (or maybe not so sudden) death he risks to bring us first-hand, unembedded reporting.
And I will never see another John Malcovich movie, since he said he wanted to shoot Fisk.
Extraordinary that through out this entire thread nobody (unless I missed it) has used the correct term for the cause of the Palestine/Israel tragedy, al Naqba. I know Livni wants to ban the term, but why would a holocaust story spouting Zionist want to deny others their own tragedy?.
What amazing chutzpah..
In A NutShell..
Prior to Partition, Zionist Militias violently took over many Arab villages in Palestine (Deir Yassin was just one). As a consequence of this, the Arab Armies (with the exception of the Jordanians who were treacherously held back) entered Palestine to try and help their fellow Arabs.
They were no match for the superior numbers of the much better trained (By the British, particularly Wingate) and equipped (Britain, Czechoslovakia and Russia amongst others) militias of Irgun and Haganah.
After the Declaration of Partition, the Zionists, as the Palestinians had suspected, although none realised quite how well founded, seized as much land as they could.
They destroyed between 480 - 530 (figures vary with the source) villages and made 700,000+ Palestinians refugees.
Resistance was brave but ultimately futile.
At the end of the fighting, the Zionists held 78%, the Palestinians 22% of their ancestral lands.
They lost more in 67 and continue to lose more and more as the illegal land “appropriations” and apartheid wall building
continues.
Their land is all but gone, but the Palestinians are still a huge population in their own lands. the so called Demographic Time Bomb, which the Zionists are hard pressed to address.. and then only at enourmous cost to their own (remaining??) credibility and self esteem(?!)..
The presence of Israel as a major terrorist nation, ably supported by the mother of all terror nations, is THE biggest threat facing us all today (after climate change).
Israel today is a racist, imperialist apartheid state that has in fact destroyed the chance of ever achieving the Zionist (racist) dream.
The only way forward is to abandon the appallingly wasteful and destructive apparatus of apartheid control and all the other “War On Turrur” BS and work towards the One State Solution, with equal rights for all.
Poisonous shills like jewbacca should be ignored. They add nothing intelligent to the conversation and distract with their evil cant.