Democrats’ Bill on Iraq Wouldn’t End War for Decades
WASHINGTON — The Democrats’ flagship proposal on Iraq is aimed at bringing most troops home. Yet if enacted, the law would still allow for tens of thousands of US troops to stay deployed for years to come.
This reality - readily acknowledged by Democrats, who say it’s still their best shot at curbing the nearly five-year war - has drawn the ire of antiwar groups and bolstered President Bush’s prediction that the United States will probably wind up maintaining a hefty long-term presence in Iraq, much as it does in South Korea.
For those who want troops out, “you’ve got more holes in here than Swiss cheese,” said Tom Andrews, national director of the war protest group Win Without War and a former congressman from Maine.
The Democratic proposal would order troops to begin leaving Iraq within 30 days, a requirement Bush is already on track to meet as he begins reversing this year’s 30,000 troop buildup. The proposal also sets a goal of ending combat by Dec. 15, 2008.
After that, troops remaining in Iraq would be restricted to three missions: counterterrorism, training Iraqi security forces, and protecting US assets, including diplomats.
This month, Senate Republicans blocked the measure, even though it was tied to $50 billion needed by the military, because they said it would impose an artificial timetable on a war that has been showing signs of progress.
Despite the GOP’s fierce opposition and a White House veto threat, military officials and analysts say the proposal leaves open the door for a substantial force to remain behind. Estimates range from as few as 2,000 troops to as many as 70,000 or more to accomplish those three missions.
There are about 164,000 troops in Iraq now.
Major General Michael Barbero, deputy chief of staff for operations in Iraq, declined to estimate how many troops might be needed under the Democrats’ plan but said it would be hard to accomplish any of the stated missions without a significant force.
“It’s a combination of all of our resources and capabilities to be able to execute these missions the way that we are,” Barbero said in a recent phone interview from Baghdad.
For example, Barbero said that “several thousand” troops are assigned to specialized antiterrorism units focused on capturing high-profile terrorist targets. But they often rely on the logistics, security, and intelligence provided by conventional troops, he said.
“When a brigade is operating in a village, meeting with locals, asking questions, collecting human intelligence on these very same [terrorist] organizations, that intelligence comes back and is merged and fed into this counterterrorism unit,” Barbero said. “So are they doing counterterrorism operations?
“It’s all linked and simultaneous. You can’t separate it cleanly like that.”
It’s also difficult to say precisely how many US troops are tasked with training the Iraqi security forces.
Christine Wormuth, who served as staff director of General James Jones’s commission on training Iraqi security forces, said she estimates some 8,000 to 10,000 troops are dedicated to training. These “transition teams” are tasked solely with training and equipping Iraqi police, army, air force, maritime, and intelligence forces.
But an undetermined number of additional troops provide “on the job” training for Iraqi security forces by conducting daily patrols and other combat missions alongside them, she said.
Last year, the Iraq Study Group, a bipartisan commission whose findings were the basis for the Democratic proposal, recommended that 10,000 to 20,000 troops should be embedded with Iraqi combat units.
Senate Democrats who championed the party’s proposal say it was written deliberately to give the military flexibility and not cap force levels. Unlike their counterparts in the House, many Senate Democrats have opposed stronger measures that would set firm deadlines on troop withdrawals or effectively force an end to the war by cutting off money for combat.
“There’s no way to say down the line how many insurgency threats there will be, how many militia threats there will be, how many Al Qaeda and other terrorist threats there will be,” said Senator Carl Levin, Democrat of Michigan, chairman of the Armed Services Committee.
Still, Levin and other Democrats say the United States could still launch effective antiterrorism strikes in Iraq using elite special operations forces without the massive footprint of conventional forces.
“We’ve been told now that 90 percent of the Iraqi units are capable of taking the lead, so six or nine months from now we would expect those units would not only be taking the lead, they would be handling those missions,” he said.
© Copyright 2007 Associated Press
I’m sure decades will be just fine and dandy for the DEMO-RATS Coporate Sponsors like Exxon, Lockheed Martin and the rest of the Military Industrial Complex.
DEMOCRATS, SAME AS THE REPUBLICANS..THE SAME GREED AND ARROGANCE
Just an FYI - for all intents and purposes, the Korean War isn’t over yet, meaning that it’s been going on well over 50 years now. Sure, no guns are firing, but there are troops still in Korea and have been since the stalemate that started in 1953 and has lasted ever since. The war was never officially declared “over”, so it’s technically still going on. Yes, it’s more of a “cold war” now, but we’re still technically at war there until it’s officially declared “over” and something is done to finally put an end to hostilities.
After all, look at all the saber-rattling that Bush has done against Kim Jong Il and North Korea. He’s tried in vain to reignite the war that never ended 54 years ago, but no one’s biting. No one wants to relive the horrors of such battles as the Chosin Reservoir. And if you don’t know what that refers to, go look it up.
These uberhawks who have currently hijacked our government foresee endless war. Well, if they’re so eager for it, let them don the uniforms and go fight it. Or send their kids. After all, Bush did his little costume stunt in a flight suit aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln. Well, if he’s so eager to play soldier, let him go fight. Of course, we all know what happened when he had the opportunity - he ran like a chickenhawk and used Poppy Bush’s name to escape into the Texas Air National Guard, and even then, never completed his service, going AWOL and then using the excuse of working on some politico’s campaign.
And what’s worse, he got away with it, scot-free. Guess that’s what happens when you can bandy about your daddy’s name to get out of something unpleasant. The man’s been a complete and utter failure at everything he’s put his hand to. Too bad people didn’t look more closely at his resumé before he became a candidate. People might have thought twice about electing someone whose entire life has been marked by failure after failure after failure. And he’s used Poppy each and every time to get himself dug out of each of those failures. That ought to have said a lot to people who should have been paying attention but obviously weren’t, or didn’t care.
Gee, I wonder how the troops on their third and fourth deployments feel about the Dems’ plan? Open-ended commitment ring a bell? Gee, can’t wait until 2008 when we will finally see some real change???? NOT!
My stepson did a tour in Korea (mid-1980s), and he says it was well understood by the troops that they were to serve as tripwires, in other words to be the first to die in any flareup of hostilities and thus become hero/martyrs who must be avenged at any cost.
Any troops left in Iraq will have the same (if unofficial) MOS. The only uncertainty is which designated Hitler will get the blame.
Does anybody expect a Democrat president (with the possible but hypothetical exception of Kucinich) to deny him or her self such a powerful tool of statecraft?
Republicrat or Demublican, the leadership of both parties favor imperialism abroad and tyranny at home. Their decisions are made by a few “decision-makers” for the benefit of the very, very rich, the group that our “representatives” truly represent.
The rest of us can go to hell and, in fact, these decision-makers are doing their best to turn planet Earth into Hell.
Cindy Sheehan is running to unseat Nancy “impeachment is off the table/nuking Iran is on the table” Pelosi. If you are tired of business as usual, Sheehan is worth your support.
SallyUUKent,
I’m looking forward to the new N/S rail line being built in Korea, as that bodes well for cultural re-assimilation, family unity, and synthesis.
Too bad there’s no place (or point betwixt) to build anything that obvious here in the US, to re-connect our fragmented and waring society.
Perhaps the argument can be made that the USA never fully recovered from our own civil was 140 years ago, and that there’s much healing that has languished as an open wound. I believe that the Black/White dichotomies are accentuated with the longer standing male/female ones.
It’s time to make amends:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all of mankind is created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.,
Namaste
When given a choice between an uncertain future in peace and freedom and the sure profits and wealth accumulation through constant war (with the death and dstruction that accompanies it) and other forms of forceful acquisition most of our “leaders” will choose the latter.
Not Kucinich, Lee, Woolsey, or Waters in the House. Not Feingold, Sanders, Byrd, or Lehy over in the Senate. But mostly (to borrow Bob Dylan’s line in “Like a Rolling Stone”) they are all out there pleading to the powerful and wealthy “Do you want to make a deal?”
This is just as much our fault as it is their’s. What will it take for this mess to change? I wish I knew.
nspire, you said,
“Perhaps the argument can be made that the USA never fully recovered from our own civil was 140 years ago, and that there’s much healing that has languished as an open wound.”
As a student of the Civil War, I must agree with you here. I’ve traveled around the country enough to know that there are still very much some open wounds over what happened so long ago. Go south of the Mason-Dixon line and start talking to people about the “Civil War” and you’ll get comments like, “Weren’t nothin’ civil about it! It’s the war of Northern agression!” and “My great grandaddy proudly wore a Confederate uniform and fought for states rights!” and
“Damn Yankees came down here an’ burned my great grandaddy’s house to the ground!”
I’ve met some seriously “unreconstructed” southerners. Now, I’m not saying that all of them are, but there are still some out there who felt that the south was perfectly within its rights to secede. And there are still the Lincoln-haters out there who think that he was the worst president we ever had. Still others think that he was hankering for war and dragged us helplessly into it.
Visit any old southern cemetery. What’s revealing is that people still leave little personal mementos on their Civil War ancestor’s graves - flags, pictures, poems, military decorations, stuffed animals - you name it. Up here in the north, graves that old are mostly forgotten and largely ignored except by eager genealogists seeking their ancestry, and even then, no little mementos are ever left like down south. I found that very telling, frankly.
So I would agree wholeheartedly with your statement about wounds still open from our own Civil War. One has but to look around and open your eyes to see evidence of that. Look at how many Civil War books still get published every month. Look at the proliferation of Civil War round tables around the country. Look at the popularity of Civil War re-enacting (particularly Confederate regiments). It’s like we’re still trying to resolve this century-plus old problem by writing, talking and re-enacting it.
I don’t know when or if those old wounds will ever heal. Even after this long.
nspire, poet and sallyuuKent—-and woundedness not healed just seems to create more woundedness. I think maybe we need to focus on developing more compassion which will offer some possibility of healing what ails us. Short of that, I just don’t know.
Had enough yet?
Isn’t it obvious now that the Democrats don’t want this war to end? They voted to authorize the war to start with, and they’ve voted to fund it all along the way.
The key part of this bill is that they are voting to fund the war again. This BS about a phony withdrawal that isn’t really a withdrawal is just smokescreen to try to keep you from paying attention to that fact.
If you want the war to end, PLEASE STOP VOTING DEMOCRAT!
PS … and come to Denver next August to tell the Democrats to their face what you think of their pro-war party!
There is a simple solution for the dems: Give Bush the money he wants with a tax for the exact same amount, paid for by incomes over $100,000. That should show just how many people actually support the troops.
The sad fact that we have a Democratic majority back in Congress isn’t enough, by a long shot, to end the war in Iraq, prevent the coming war in Iran, or to excise the tumor of corporatist Empire behind these expanding oil-wars. And neither will the election of one of the ‘leading’ Democrat candidates be enough to do squat.
I find myself a bit less optimistic about an eventual solution to our escalating war in the Middle East being provided by any current or future Democratic Party deus ex machina.
In my humble opinion the Dems will sure as hell not end this Empire’s oil-war trajectory toward nuclear conflagration, but the coming economic crash could well motivate via pain enough Americans to stop this madness —- and that would be something to really give thanks for.
After all, this global corporatist Empire hiding behind the facade of ‘Vichy America’ seems more than capable of fooling most of the people most of the time, and plying them with consumer goodies, that this imperialist war disaster will only be aborted when enough of us suffer enough pain to overcome the inertia of the two phony parties and the ‘happy talk’ media.
I figure, better if that motivation of shared pain comes from an economic crash than if we just let the Dems play-out the clock and wait for the pain to come from the crash of nuclear bombs.
So count me as a contrarian. I will finish this Thanksgiving envisioning giving thanks for a nice big Christmas toy of a very painful and very motivating economic crash (which I believe is already being gift wrapped as we speak), and hope and pray that that gift will be delivered well before, and instead of the other, even more painful gift, of a nuclear war in the Middle East to end this GD Empire.
Gosh, is it time to set some benchmarks for progress by the year 2153, or will that be (shudder) *too liberal*?
Eeeeek!
(dives under table)
This is just a cynical election-year ploy to create the illusion that Congress is carrying out the will of the people to end the war, while actually serving its true masters in the war-profiteering “defense” industries and in the Likud party. It will cost us dearly in lives, dollars, our place in the world and our own morality, but until we finally elect some honest, ethical and truly democratic (lower case d, not to be confused with the oxymoronic party of the upper case letter) candidates, this is what we will get.
It gets worse …. remember, all the leading Democrats also support starting another war with Iran.
Oh, they’ll try to stay on the sidelines, and they’ll wring their hands and make mealy-mouthed statements that can be taken later as having maybe, kinda-sorta opposed a war with Iran. But, the bottom line is that they’ve repeatedly refused to do anything that might stop that war. With Democrats, always watch actions and don’t listen to their words.
So, not only is Iraq costing us plenty in terms of national treasure, national respect, and the injuries and deaths of our young people, but its going to get much, much worse when we start a war with Iran …. with full support of the Democrats.
If you oppose these wars, please stop voting Democrat.
The Korean War analogy is wrong for one obvious reason - there has never been an insurgency in South Korea. As far as I know, hardly anyone (US or otherwise) has died from “hostilities” in South Korea since the armistice. US soldiers are a “tripwire,” but not in any direct danger except under extraordinary circumstances. In Iraq, under the mission that the Democrats accept, the insurgency will continue and US soldiers, diplomats, contractors and “collaborators” will continue to be targets of violence. Not such a bright idea, methinks.
But, as everyone here knows, the Democrats have no intention of renouncing the idea that we should, and can, give “legitimate” military support to a “legitimate” Iraqi government. The idea that you can follow-up on a plainly illegal invasion by hanging around to prop up the government that you “allow” to be formed is preposterous, but the alternative is still beyond the bounds of acceptable debate.
And the ONLY candidate to be talking about this is …drum-roll please … thuuuurrrrrrb-bp-th-dump!
DENNIS KUCINICH!!!
The only man courageous enough to bring charges of impeachment.
There’s a whole lot of only’s that apply to Kucinich but you wouldn’t know this from listening to of the M$M.
Too bad you can’t tell one politician from another, no matter what party they belong to, be it “front-runner” this or “front-runner” that - the new boss - same as the old boss - but that’s corporate owned democracy for ya’!
Suck it up! Bend over and smile … the 08′ carnival of elections is coming our way! And remember this - the people you should be listening to are the ones they’re trying to silence.
this is a complete sellout! the top three crapola demorats have each talked about these amerikan assets, without ever being questioned as to what are these assets they need to protect..what horseshit!
We know..the 105 acre US embasy that is, being built by the Kuaiti contractor,with slave labor, under the raidar of the corporate media, never reported until recently. and of course permanant military bases and last but not least Iraqi oil wells which The US gov and big oil feel is their’s for the picking. This bill is an outrage and if we don’t form a progressive party and oppose these corporate fascist politicians dems or repoobs..we’re finished!!! I’ve had it with this crap. I’ll never support a Democratic nominee, unless it’s Kucinich, and that will only happen when monkeys start flying out of all their asses, and their heads melt into a puddle of camel dung.
“After that, troops remaining in Iraq would be restricted to three missions: counterterrorism, training Iraqi security forces, and protecting US assets, including diplomats.”
This is exactly what they said when the war in Viet Nam was just BEGINNING. The shameless scum called the Democratic Party have no intention of leaving Iraq. Ever. They also have no intention of rolling back all of Bush’s unConstitutional revisions of Presidential power because they want to use the suspension of habeas corpus, the use of torture, and the closed, secret government themselves.
AlexLawyer: It will cost us dearly in lives, dollars, our place in the world and our own morality
Individual Americans may avoid military enlistment, reduce one’s taxable income, reach out to the world in solidarity, and vote third party progressives in the elections to preserve one’s moral standing.
I fail to see why we don’t pull out of Iraq now. A TOTAL pullout, just like we finally wisely did in Vietnam and leave those people alone to work it out however they work it out.
It is none of our G-damn business. Not only should we pull out of there, we should give the final crooked victors of whatever they fight over and is left, enough money to repair their infastructures we have utterly destroyed. We can even not discuss that aspect of this incredible mess we created, just get F out,___ leave, ___ a very nasty divorse. IT’S OVER! ___ There is nothng that can happen in Iraq if we depart, than has already happened or is going to happen.
Of course, I fail to see why, but I know the people who want the oil and fear we will be left hanging without it see why. It WAS for oil and still IS for oil, but if one sits in the dark for a few hours and actually thinks about it, the fu##ing oil ain’t worth it, it never was. We’ve killed millions for nothing, ruined a once powerful American army andNational Guard, bankrupted our nation, ruined the lives of millions, and the Democrats and the Republicans WE’VE elected to high office, are discussing leaving there in a few YEARS, maybe a lot of years. This undeniable bullshit is gonna ruin not only Iraq, it’s gonna ruin us. It probably alreasdy has. ___ Shit.
KEM PATRICK—last I heard, a huge majority of the Iraqi people want us gone—see us as a big component of what ails them, and will take their chances on the aftermath. This has NEVER been about the people of Iraq—-they are just an obstacle, to be eliminated if necessary, so our troops can serve as the private army protecting big oil interests.And a complicit Congress knows what is really up and support it. Quite a government we’ve got, ain’t it?
This is no time to contemplate about such grim matters. What one needs to do, and by god they are doing it is to indulge in the black Friday shopping orgy which marks the beginning of the Christian holy season of peace and good will.
I did shop today……… I bought a can of Bugler, some rice for our cave stocks and a box of kleenex. (a little message on the box reads, made in Mexico) Ya see, China don’t make everything yet. Am I baaaaad.
Come to think o fit, I am. It’s 25 miles to town, so I drove 50 miles and used two gallons of gas because I was running out of tobacco. __ $6 bucks fo rgas. …….Damn.
The military claims the bomb in the animal market yesterday was Iranian backed. They say they have captured the Shiite miltiamen who set it off, and they admitted the Iranian connection.
Who knows if any of this is true, but with enough excuses like this, Cheney might take his chance on messing with Iran. The Korean analogy partly fits with Iran. Like the Iranians, the Koreans are unified, fiercely patriotic, believe in themselves and make some of the toughest, scariest soldiers on the planet. (Ask a Korean or Viet Nam war vet.)The only problem with that analogy is we would be on the wrong side.
Opps! My point was the war could widen before it winds down. Only Bush/cheney are crazy enough to widen it to Iran. Giuliani listens to the same neocon advisors as Bush. Get them out of the White House!
Our government has built American cities in Iraq and has no intention of leaving — Dem or Repug, this will not change. The Dim plan is to bring home some troops, declare the war “over” and keep the rest out of the news. Disneyland America at “peace” once again.
A progressive alternative electoral ticket is vital if you don’t like that scenario. The pre-selected “candidate” will still “win” a rigged selection but they will have less legitimacy and a harder time if a truth-telling alternative garners enough of the vote and you can’t “spoil” a rigged election.
Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court are owned by the Corporatocracy. Their motto: public risk (i.e., blood and treasure), private gain — our money and blood, their oil profits. They need to be relieved of the wealth that we produced for them and the power they do not deserve and should not have. That’s the only solution, really.
KEM PATRICK, I hear ya. I’ve noticed that a couple of well-known brands of toothpaste are now being manufactured in Mexico. I’m just wondering why illegal aliens still come here for jobs when the jobs are being sent to Mexico (and elsewhere). From now on I’m checking where ANYTHING I buy is made. If it’s not made in the U.S., I’m not buying it. I think enough of our jobs have been sent to other countries already.
Americans are only getting what they deserve. As for Democratic voters, they’re like people who eat at McDonald’s everyday and don’t know why they’re fat and get cancer. They’re uneducated, helpless and hopeless, intervention is the only thing that could save them, but it might be too late.
Good Morning,
I see the anti dems got a nice Thanksgiving gift today, news about dems being complicit in prolonging our stay in Iraq.
I am so happy for all you nay-sayers, this insignificant news gives you another opportunity to spew your stored up venom and animosity at someone. Finally another chance to condemn the dems and say I told you so.
Yawn, yawn.
The Chicken Little gang, now have another imaginary evil to direct their diatribe at, the Dems are coming, the Dems are coming, run for the hills.
There are really more important things to do in life besides engage in a debate with a frustrated angry mob.
Basically, I realize it is hopeless to reason with people who make nonsensical ridiculous statements, like they were blindfolded and swinging haphazardly at a piñata.
But in the hope that there are some sensible people listening in, aside from the usual batch of negative posters, I will try to present another perspective.
Once upon a time in the deepest darkest part of Texas, there emerged a short Texan with modest compassionate conservative ideas.
This son of a Texas oil millionaire wanted to be just like his daddy and become president.
The people believed that he would be a good man and not raise taxes and be a compassionate president.
But when the man from Texas got elected, he immediately made plans to help his closest friends become rich just like his daddy, from oil.
With the help of his senile VP he told the people who elected him that there was a bad man in the Middle East that had to be removed so democracy could flourish.
The people said OK.
And the Texan sent his personal army overseas to get the bad man removed from office.
The short Republican Texan ordered that a hood be placed over the heads of Iraqi prisoners and they should be tortured and knocked unconscious while we stole their oil.
And like justice in the old west the short Texan ordered that the president of Iraq be hanged, after a fair trial.
The trail went ahead and the judge asked the name of the prisoner and without further delay the judge said guilty.
And the world saw American justice, Judge Roy Bean style, hang um high and show no mercy.
For all those who may have forgotten the scenario leading up to this war, let me just remind you that it was a Republican war, a Republican president and a Republican Congress that pushed us into war.
The real point is, if a democrat had been elected, say Nobel Peace prize winner Al Gore, would we have committed to such a war in the first place?
I think not.
Sure vote for the party of Donald Duck and Goofy if it helps you ventilate your anger but this philosophy of voting for anyone but a dem is what got us Bush.
If you really want permanent military bases in Iraq then by all means vote for that third party candidate who can never do anything wrong because they can never get elected.
Just look how perfect my imaginary candidate is they never disappoint me because, they never have to make decisions, because they never get elected.
If ever there was a case of uniting to defeat a dangerous common foe it is now, the enemy of my enemy is my ally.
We keep forgetting that at least 50% of the electorate is redneck bigots who support endless war and without some votes from those folks one does not get elected in this country.
We progressive liberals are just a small part of the electorate and no one gets elected with only our support it requires some votes from the brain dead.
Just remember what happened to anti war candidate George McGovern, even though the country seemed fed up with war he went down in a landslide defeat.
It is not enough to be against the war you must play the electorate like a Stradivarius.
You dem haters are tough and unforgiving and short sighted in placing blame where it belongs.
Every time I have a disagreement with my beautiful charming wife, (she reads my posts) if I listened to you guys I would open the door and kick the “bitch” out, until she got her lawyer to throw me out.
If we have a disagreement, which is daily, we try to work it out between ourselves and not fly off the handle and abandon all the wonderful things we have together just because we have occasional differences.
The only hope we have of restoring democracy is to try and field a candidate from the mainstream party like a Dennis Kucinich, he is a testament to the fact that we can get strong liberal candidates from within the democratic party if we encourage and support them.
I too would like to know what the hell happened to Daniel David I am getting tired of defending the dems on my own, come on there must be some others out there willing to face the ravages of this unruly crowd?
“My fellow Americans, let us take that first step. Let us…step back from the shadows of war and seek out the way of peace. And if that journey is a thousand miles, or even more, let history record that we, in this land, at this time, took the first step.”
JFK
It’s funny how the Iraqi’s don’t play into the equation at all. The fact that over 90% of Iraqi’s want an immediate withdrawal of all American forces, this is completely irrelevant to Washington policy planners.
We’d all better hope and pray there are several millon SEQUOIA BISONS here when the next presidential election rolls around and the TitiTats are all swept up by their UFO and taken back where they belong.
Its pitiful when to find a Democratic leader making statements for peace they have to go back to someone who’s been dead for 44 years.
Kucinich is a testimony to how futile it is to work within the Democrats. You certainly aren’t going to get a strong liberal candidate for President from the Democrats, no matter how many windmills Kucinich tilts at.
Somehow the deluded Dems think that because they let Kucinich stand on the edge of a debate stage and say one word every 30 minutes that this makes a pro-war, pro-corporate candidate like Hillary become a ’strong, liberal candidate.’ What a joke.
This isn’t FDR’s Democratic Party, and it isn’t JFK’s Democratic Party, war hawk that he was. It isn’t George McGovern’s Democratic Party, and they’ve rigged the rules since then to make sure a McGovern or a Carter can’t ever win again. Open your eyes and take a real, honest look at today’s Democrats and what actions they really take. Like this bill that is more funding for more war dressed up in the fig leaf of a phony, non-binding withdrawal ‘goal’ that isn’t even a withdrawal.
If we were really smart, by the time the next election rolls around, the conservatives and libertarians who support Ron Paul, and the progressives who support Kucinich, and the Greens who support McKinney and Nader and everyone else who opposes this pro-war and corrupt government would come together in an unified opposition campaign to challenge the two pro-war candidates in the next election.
Such a campaign would have a very simple goal. Take back our government, and return us to being a government of the people, by the people and for the people again. We need to end the corruption, and we need to fix our crooked election system. We need to unite to do this.
““My fellow Americans, let us take that first step. Let us…step back from the shadows of war and seek out the way of peace. And if that journey is a thousand miles, or even more, let history record that we, in this land, at this time, took the first step.”
JFK”
The big lie of the Democratic Party. As seen by actions instead of words. Just note that JFK was starting the Vietnam war while he was saying this.
Who can say that the Dems as a party are worth anything if they support this bill?
Lets see which of the Dem prez candidates support it and take notes.
Actually there aren’t that many progressive Dems in congress and there are lots of Blue or dead dog dems who vote with the repubs usually so if you were expecting better out of a slim majority of Dems, now, you know why.
I say even if you are a Communist, register Dem for this special period and vote The War Machine’s Menace, Dennis… just for the primary to show that progressive Americans will support the progressive candidates even if the party sucks.
Then after we show we have some influence, we have about 9 months to see what the situation is and if none of the candidates measure up, we can vote for a third party or for yourselves as a protest and maybe things will change by then who knows? Maybe a popular Dark Horse will appear that can untite 3rd party and Progressives….or maybe the thought of Guliani will make the Dem candidate sound like Jesus.
What would Pete Seeger do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAXfJKh-NnY
Y’know, reading the CD website is often a rollercoaster. After a long, exhausting day of teaching children, or selling stuff, or caring for nature and the bounty it provides, or building things worthy of the hours of your life that you’ll never get back, and after stepping back with whatever satisfaction you can extract and tell yourself you’re one day older but that doesn’t matter because you’re one day more accomplished…you see the headlines, and realize yet again, that the world has gone mad. You click on a story, and learn about some travesty of common decency, some flagrant violation of the basic human compassion that you hold dear and truly want to believe will save your species, some insane continuation of the nightmare you tried so hard not to think about all day, and…
And then you read the comments. Do you remember the time when CD didn’t even offer readers a chance to comment? Those were dark days indeed. They’re brighter now, though not yet sunny and clear. I’ve been a relatively (relative to myself only) prolific commenter over the past week, and I must say it has given me…given me strength, hope. But not nearly as much as have all of your comments. I dare say this dialogue, as fleeting and removed as it is, needs must be widened. If we are to combine our voices.
I mean, how many times does a potential Kucinich presidency appear (at face value, even. (impassioned supporters notwithstanding) go to his website to convince yourself) to be a tangible solution to so many problems highlighted in CD articles? How many times does impeachment appear as a desperately-needed corrective measure to this slippery thing called democracy? How many times does an intervention-style wake-up call to the core evil of mainstream media need to be justified by evidence of collusion, complicity, and corruption?
The real question is: how many people need to be convinced of these facts before real change is seen?
Check your email lists. If you haven’t done so already, email each and every person and organization you know to rally around not only reading CD, but joining and commenting. Be convincing. Be funny. Be interesting. Be concise. When the server load gets too high, dig into your pockets and support CD. This forum is functional. It is fruitful. It is valuable (well, at least to me it is) and it can be a force against the f—ing feckless farce known as the Demopublican party.
A friend said to me this week “Bill Clinton was the president who turned the democratic party into a wing of the republican party” and it’s so true. This is just further proof. This country is ruled by one party, like the USSR was, complete with thought crime legislation, detainment camps being built willy-nilly, borders closing, domestic surveillance, etc. etc. Not to mention the institutionalized racism, sexism, militarism promoted constantly in all forms of media, children being recruited for the military, and the list goes on and on. Hitler would be proud.
It’s about oil folks. Not rational ‘doing good’ in the world.
So the point is that world oil production appears to have plateaued (if not peaked) as world demand is rising rapidly. Meanwhile the dollar is losing value rapidly.
Oil is everything. Your FOOD. Your HOME.
They haven’t been honest, but that’s why they are building PERMANENT bases in Iraq and plan to militarily take the region.
They have no ‘Plan B’ for oil running out. We have an empire built on an unsustainable, finite resource, currently valued less than bottled water.
A barrel of oil is equal to 12 men working for ONE YEAR. At $100, that’s still very cheap.
At the current rate of the price increases, expect $150 next year, and $200/barrel in 2009.
We have a problem and there’s no honest discussion of how serious and complicated this problem is. The laws of entropy and thermodynamics do not support the economists claims that ‘alternatives’ will become viable as the price rises. Rather, the alternatives, parasitic upon petroleum, become more expensive. Everything becomes more expensive very quickly.
The corporate media has hoodwinked you. The left has done a piss-poor job in understanding the key issues of our day.
Now, where is my deckchair. I need to look out my window.
The Iraqis certainly haven’t “invited” the US troops to stay in Iraq for years and years. They want the US out, out, out. The Democratic plan would not close down all those permanent military bases, nor would it scrap the plan to continue building the “largest embassy in the world”. No doubt, most reasonable people would think that a sovereign country would need to invite another country to set up housekeeping within their borders and establish an embassy.
I think it’s the oil PSAs, too, that the Democrats want to help Bush steal.
As for troop withdrawals, the author mentions only 164,000 troops. There are actually twice that many including US mercenaries, say a total of 320,000 US military personnel in Iraq. But of course the US won’t withdraw the troops.
They could all be withdrawn in two weeks or under. In WW II, the Allies withdrew 318,000 troops in the evacuation of Dunkirk in 11 days — look it up. Service people were transported all KINDS of ways to waiting ships. But the mercenaries in Iraq could evacuate themselves. They have as much transport capability as the US military. So say a week to get US Armed forces out of Iraq.
Brings reality home, doesn’t it? All US personnel could get out of Iraq a week or two. It won’t take years and years. The Iraqis don’t need or want US “help”.
Is it possible any longer to create the political atmosphere in which an actual challenge can be made to the Redemocrud party? Or is the only choice that remains to be kicked in the ass by Hillary Clown-Toons or Rude E. Giuliani? Seven out of 10 Americans say we’re on the wrong track in almost all aspects, yet refuse to repudiate the Redemocruds. I don’t get it.
I think I get it. The other three of ten are on the same track as our elected and they control the money and count the votes.
You hit the nail ANNEY.
Gee, SEQUOIABISON, just what are all these wonderful things we share with the Democratic politicians? Please, I would like to see a list. Enlighten me.
The DemHaters chorus, led by Mr. COMarc, can always tell you another perfidious crime committed by a Democrat or “the Democrats,” and urge you to riot in the streets of Denver, yet can never answer the following simple questions:
1) How does it make sense for small minority of highly informed and involved citizens, called “progressives” or whatever, to split off from the main left-of-center party and seek power through the ballot box under a winner-take-all electoral system? What effect on the outcome of elections can this possibly have other than making it easier for the right-of-center party to win?
2) How is this small minority going to organize and mobilize enough voters to elect even a single congressman, senator, governor or big-city mayor?
3) Whatever is the answer to 2), why couldn’t the same methods be used to win Democratic primary elections, nominate candidates as Democrats, and win major offices as Democrats?
4) Wouldn’t it be easier for a progressive to win a primary election where the voters are all Democrats and mostly more progressive than the average Democrat, and much more progressive than the average voter?
5) Granted that there are conservative and corporate forces within the Democratic Party that would and do oppose progressives, if progressives can win nominations and offices as Democrats, using whatever methods they would have used to win as Greens or Reds or whatever, how can these corporate forces prevent the progressives from taking control of the Democratic Party after they have won office?
Nader2000:
1) We don’t have a “left-of-center party”. In case you haven’t noticed, Congressional Democrats are voting for what the corporations want. This winner-take-all electoral system ensures that we will continue in the direction we have been going - increasing corporate control over our lives and wallets.
2) The party machine decides who gets to run for election so your question is moot. Check out Rahm Emanuel’s behavior as chairman of the DCCC in the 2006 primary
3) See 2).
4) If that was the case, wouldn’t it have already happened? It hasn’t. If you can’t figure out why, refer to 2).
5) The conservative and corporate forces within the Democratic Party control who the Party supports for office, creating in most cases an insurmountable barrier for winning primaries. The people controlling the Party have so much corporate money flowing their way they will fight to destroy anyone attempting change their system. And they have the money to do it. They control donor lists and every form of Party support. Your argument is illogical.
BeForKids:
1) If you don’t like how Congressional Democrats are voting, work to change that. The winner-take-all system, which IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE, ensures that the only way you can do that is through the Democratic Party process.
2) The party machine decides a great deal but the most powerful players are always the actually elected government officeholders, particularly the president if a Democrat. Who has say over who is elected to office? Voters.
4) I don’t claim that the Democratic Party is going to be entirely captured by the Left wing. But the Left has much less influence than it could, particularly if the energies of some of the most committed activists weren’t being sapped by losing third-party and other make-believe “radical” activities.
5) The conservative and corporate forces do have a great deal of control at the moment. I’m saying take that away from them. I’m not saying they won’t fight back. I’m saying if you think you can win by organizing at the grassroots and talking real issues, then you can win power in the Party through the primary process and it is going to be much easier to do this than to win general elections as a third party.
Basically, you avoided answering the questions. Next!
Nader2000, I did not avoid answering your questions, you just rejected my answers.
Thanks to our corporate media, we have ill-informed voters.
Yes, anyone can run for office, but the Democratic Party machine will put up a corporate flack to run against a progressive and do everything possible to thwart the progressive’s campaign. They don’t want progressives in the Party (except wimpy voters), they get in the way of corporate interests. Basically, our votes are welcome. but we aren’t. Most of us here on CD get that. Those who don’t are either living in the past or attached to the idea of being rescued. Won’t happen.
A small minority isn’t going to change the ways of a Party with millions of uninformed voters. As my daughter-in-law put it “I’ll just vote for whoever the Democrats choose, the lesser of two evils”. And that we can count on, them choosing the lesser of two evils. Iran, anyone?
Third party movements have an important place in American politics. They have a history of focusing major party attention on issues they have been ignoring. When the party loses enough voters to a third party, they start incorporating those issues into their platforms to bring those voters back. So that is our only real chance.
Basically you are living in a dream world if you think the Democrats will change their ways without any reason to do so. And trying to operate inside a rigged system is just what they want you to continue to waste your time doing.
> “Yes, anyone can run for office, but the Democratic Party machine will put up a corporate flack to run against a progressive and do everything possible to thwart the progressive’s campaign.”
Let’s assume that’s true. Actually, it isn’t always true, and actually, the Democratic candidate who is actually a “corporate flack” is a rarity. But let’s assume it’s always true, even though it isn’t.
If they will “put up a corporate flack” when you try to run a progressive in a Democratic primary, won’t they do the same thing when you run the same progressive as a Green, Socialist or whatever?
Will you have enough organized peoplepower to win in the general election, splitting the left-of-center vote with the Democrat while right-wing voters stay united behind some Republican troglodyte? If so, why couldn’t beat the “corporate flack” in the Democratic primary election, with Republican voters out of the picture, and the participating Democratic voters being the more involved, generally more progressive variety? Conversely, if you can’t win with the friendlier primary electorate, what makes you think you’ll win with the more hostile general electorate?
These are the two basic questions which advocates of a third-party strategy NEVER answer, because there IS NO GOOD ANSWER. Third party politics DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. It is just make-believe.
> “Third party movements have an important place in American politics. They have a history of focusing major party attention on issues they have been ignoring. When the party loses enough voters to a third party, they start incorporating those issues into their platforms to bring those voters back. So that is our only real chance.”
Here you all but ADMIT that your third-party strategy is not an electoral strategy at all. Instead, you want to raise issues. But consider this: the Civil Rights movement was not a third party. The anti-Vietnam War movement was not a third party. The women’s movement was not a third party. The consumer movement was not a third party, until Nader decided to pretend to be a serious candidate for president, but refused to go through the Democratic Party nominating process, thus committing a new and massive kind of consumer fraud. But you get the point.
Third party pretend politics is not our only chance to raise important issues and do so in a way that achieves a lasting impact. It’s really a very inefficient way, because it absorbs a lot of energies, hurts those politicians most likely to be our friends, and it loses again and again.
More importantly, we do have another chance in electoral politics, going through the Democratic Party. The process is the road to power.
> “you think the Democrats will change their ways without any reason to do so”
Whatever gave you this impression? I think we can change them, in two ways: 1) By giving them reasons to change, 2) By changing these Democrats for other Democrats, or other people who will be elected as Democrats but will have a very different agenda from the “corporate Democrats” you (and I) despise.
I think we do both by organizing independently as progressives and acting within the Democratic Party process. It will be easier to beat the corporate forces within this process than it will be to do so as a third party; in fact, the latter has always and will always turn out to be impossible, but even if you do not see why this is so (winner-take-all elections, stupid), you must see that, whatever strength it would take to beat them in the general elections, it must take less to beat them in the Democratic primaries.
Nader2000, are you reduced to calling me stupid? That’s pretty rude and a poor argument for your position.
Go on feeding the Democrats your vote. Considering the rate of your success so far, excuse me for not choosing to join you.
I don’t believe that word stupid was aimed at you BeForKids. I read it as just in general. I’m certain he does not considrer you to be stupid, for you come across as very intelligent and also very decent and a fun and nice person.
I don’t fully agree with you on this issue either. I don’t agree with a good friend of mine on it here either, she used to rap me pretty good too. Haven’t seen Kathyodat post for quite awhle, she’s probably busy, or on vacation. You would like her, she’s a wonderful gal and pretty much has your opinions on this issue.
I really admire Ralph Nader, but I believe if he’d stayed out of the last election, Bush would be boozing it up in Crawford full time. UUhhhhh, maybe he is anyway. Don’t wish to start that debate again, it is just my belief, based upon the facts. The people who supported and voted for Nader, will never accept that, because they are human and we humans are never wrong. ____ At least I never am.
Hi Kem, Thanks for your kind words. Sometimes I am wrong, but doing the right thing isn’t one of them. Holding my nose to vote feels wrong to me. Voting for someone who will betray me - for money! - feels wrong to me. But hey, if some people don’t have a problem with that, that’s their reality. But not mine.
The Republicans were going to make sure Bush became President with or without Nader and the people who voted for him. I remember when they announced that Gore won and the camera cut to the entire Bush family sitting on a couch looking smug and satisfied. I realized they had something up their sleeves. Shortly after that, the decision was reversed.
Kem, if at least some of us don’t stand up for what we believe in, nothing will change. I know some think they can persuade the Democrats to change their ways from the inside. To me, that’s like a battered woman staying in an abusive relationship while the batterer keeps promising to change. But that’s how I see it. I realize the people who keep clinging to the Democrats see it differently.
I could get as angry and abusive as some of these Democrat enablers for not doing what I want, which is to give this betraying corporate party the kick in the teeth it deserves and teach it that it can’t treat it’s base this way. But I believe we need to discuss, express our views and give each other the respect and freedom to make our own choices. It’s my opinion that eventually people will get it, that the Democrats can’t be trusted. There’s a variety of solutions to that problem. I hope we work them out. In my opinion, giving the Democrats what they want, our votes, isn’t one of them.
Kem, I have no comment on your sly reference to kathyodat.
Well, careful what you say about her, she can get pretty mean, nice as she is.
So Kem, which is the real kathyodat? Mean or nice?
I saw that and so did that very intelligent, and funny too, bald guy who was giving us opinions on the outcome of the election. What’s his name, the one who was an advisor for Clintion and is happily married to a nut case Republican TV political commentator?
Anyway, first they showed the Bush family, sitting there looking like the fox who caught the rabbit, shortly after when they announced Bush won, both in Florida and Ohio, the guy looked like a man who has just been kicked in the lower portion of his trunk. I could see it in his painful expression, that he was fully aware, that the Democrats had just been royally screwed. ___ And indeed, they and the entire world’s population had been.
Exceptionally nice and mean if provoked
You did that well, Kem. Thank you.
Except I should substitute the word ‘mean’, with the four words, ‘a brave fighting spirit’. It is likely Odin would have have recruited her, for his Valkyrie division of female warriors. If she would not be so hard nosed, on her somewhat closed minded opinions of the Democrat candidates.
One only has to hold their nose for a few minutes while voting, which would be far better than holding it for four more years. Of course that is also a possibility.
You’re funny, Kem. And I agree. It takes only a brief act to betray our principles.
Kem you’re talking about James Carville? He used to be a Republican didn’t he, and I always wondered if he is a mole. Certainly the Democratic consultants have been disaster when it comes to winning elections.