304 Comments so far

1. fccm September 29th, 2007 12:04 pm

   Exactly. This and the “INTERVIEW WITH INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST SEYMOUR HERSH” at SPIEGEL ONLINE

   http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,508394,00.html

   say it like it is.

   For the good of our nation, impeachment must be placed back “on the table.”

2. Ayumanbean September 29th, 2007 12:20 pm

   While I hate all wars at least this one was one where we could see some good come of it. We did help release people from the terrible grip of crazy/evil men. Since then, America has lost it’s way with wars. Now I really think we will live to see the day WWIII will start. It is just a matter of time till someone drops one and then others follow. Humans seem unable to learn how to live in peace. I think it is because some have so little and others have so much. I don’t know. Maybe it is just our nature and we were really believing in pipe dreams when we thought “all you need is love”. Apparently all you need is a few bombs.

3. Daniel David September 29th, 2007 12:27 pm

   Perhaps the most significant difference between the America of today and the America of two generations back is that corporations now tightly grip both our government and our individual psyches through media and advertising. Can you imagine the days of actually electing Harry Truman when virtually no one had a television on which to see a campaign ad? Harry was in some ways akin to Dennis Kucinich, and though some of us might like to elect Dennis now, it can’t be done in today’s environment. Barack Obama has a slightly better shot, but not really too good. And corporate influence has much to do with the reasons why.

   Hillary, like her or not, is perceived by betmakers as at least “possible”, so some corporate money gets behind her as a “hedge” in the event she gets elected.
   Some of her same contributors will also be giving to Giuliani or Thompson, just in case. This leads some to believe, ahh, nuts, they’re all the same. It doesn’t make any difference.

   Well, they’re NOT the same, and who is president makes a huge difference, sometimes in dozens of little ways that don’t make the news. A president enforces the laws through IRS, DOL, the attorney general, cabinet officials, and very importantly, by appointing the new members to the Supreme Court.

   We have watched George Bush and Dick Cheney selectively enforce against citizens and in favor of corporations for nearly 7 years. The effects will take years to undo, at best, and another round of it for 8 more years with Giuliani or Thompson might very well be like concrete shoes put on American families (and American singles) for a permanent swim in the proverbial lake.

   If the viable alternative turns out to be Hillary, please support her. If it’s Barack, support him. But please don’t waste votes and energy on yelling that none are any good and you want another Nader failure.
   That’s how we got Bush, and the same dumb game, if played again, will get you Giuliani or Thompson, (neither of whom, by the way, even bother to call themselves “compassionate”, just “conservative.”)

4. zoya September 29th, 2007 12:53 pm

   And don’t forget the best thing about WWII: the Marshall Plan — the American determination to put Europe back together in a way that brought out the best of the European character. Or, rather, characters, since every country in Western Europe was encouraged to recover as much of its cultural uniqueness as possible under the circumstances. The aim was to create a Europe whose chief export would no longer be war. It produced the EU which, despite the many temptations to make Europe just another predatory capitalist superstate, is struggling to hang on to its humanity and thus is one of the bravest projects on the planet.

   And don’t forget the Neuremberg Trials and the United Nations, which gave us international law — the first law of which is that war is illegal. The UN was thought to be a hundred-year project. Yet barely 60 years later we’ve all but abandoned it for yet another greedy, violent imperialist project whose aim is to keep the White Man in charge.

5. whatfools September 29th, 2007 12:55 pm

   Those were the days. Saving ‘tin’ foil from gum wrappers for the war effort (dropped as chaff over Germany). Saving tinsle from the Christmas tree because none was for sale. Playing in the stacks of black market tires in a neighbors garage. Gas rationing to save the tires because so much of the rubber trees were in enemy hands. Saving bottles and cans just to teach conservation. Listening to radio plays on the Victrola during the evening blackouts. The lights were dim and the electric clocks ran slowly during the day only to catch up at night. Saving bacon grease. The aroma of leaves burning in the Autumn streets. Those were the days.

   We still ration gas due to outragious pricing. How many of us can afford to eat bacon anymore? Brownouts and burning bans. Around the clock infomercials. Something went wrong. Did we lose the war?

6. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 12:57 pm

   Understand your reasoning FCCM, you are correct about impeachment, it MUST be placed ON the table, but not BACK on the table, for it was never on the table. Kicinich tried, but Conyers and Pelosi have effectively insured it will ROT on Conyers desk.

   In my mind, Conyers is a criminal for violating the law of our land, OUR Constitution, which Bush refers to as a G-D piece of paper. No one has legally challenged Conyers on that most important issue. Bush is an insane criminal also and has the full approval of our Congress to run amuck, do as he pleases and proclaim he is acting with the direction and approval of God. The God of the Milky Way was evicted from Heaven years ago.

   Since Starfish GWB has been our king, he has bankrupted us and led us into an unjust and disasterous war and has only just begun to fight. Our National Debt is near the ten trillion dollar mark and the dollar is floundering, we are on the brink of a depression, the likes of which has never been seen in all of recorded history.

   What is so damned incredible is, our Congress must be able to see what is occurring, yet they fail to do a single thing to put a stop to the madness. The elected are evidently not communicating with one another. “What we have here, is a failure to communicate”.

   I also blame our media foremost, for not printing and voicing the truth, it is self evident of what is happening to America, which indeed, was once a decent and powerful nation. It seems as if all who have the power to wake up the majority of Americans, don’t know what to do, or have been bought off, or are afraid to act.

   Articles such as this well written one by Bob Cesca, are seen by only a few. The Americans will awaken, but it is difficult to do anything productive, when one wakes up and the entire house is engulfed in flames. When the depression hits, there won’t be an America. Within a month or less, our country will be a flaming mess with thousands of warlord led gangs in control. Any who don’t believe that, are not accepting the truth. The clues of an American Armageddon are clearly obvious.

7. gyptian September 29th, 2007 1:02 pm

   Im not sure I buy into this ‘America was good’ rhetoric. We were very happily dealing with the Nazis and profiting from that war machine till pearl harbour happened and we were forced to get into the war. Also we nuked Japan when they were on the point of folding anyways. We didnt have to use nuclear weapons but we did anyways to basically test it out and show our dominance. Its too easy to look at the past with rose-tinted glasses. We are and have been an imperial power for the last 100 years or more.

8. claudius September 29th, 2007 1:03 pm

   This is getting ridiculous. Comparing the illegal occupation of Iraq first to the Vietnam War, and now World War II? Please. For the Bush Administration to nostalgically compare what is transpiring today to World War II is beyond a stretch, but wholly disillusionary, and in fact, as the author says “the comparison is total horseshit.” Here is what will be written in the history books “the George W. Bush Administration was by far the worst in American history” (and it would not be far off the mark to say the same about this Congress). If you really want to compare it to any other time in history, and even then it is a stretch and insulting to historic figures during those times, MAYBE the beginning of the Gilded Age in 1870, or perhaps during the presidency of James Buchanan. But in reality, the George W. Bush Presidency (I have an incredibly difficult time saying and believing that because he never was nor is my President) really ought to be placed in a category of its own: Presidents and pop-up books.

9. petercschmid September 29th, 2007 1:13 pm

   Who can save the good still left in America before it is too late?

10. locust September 29th, 2007 1:20 pm

    America was united during WWII, agreeing about the cause of the war.
    Imperial Japan sneak-attacked Pearl Harbor (before informing us of their declaration of war). Hitler’s Germany declared war on the USA.
    In both cases America saw the direct and potent threat because it was there, because the other side initiated it.

    Iraq never attacked the USA, never threatened the USA, never declared war.
    Some of America saw a direct and potent threat because this government lied and said that there was.

    There can never be whole-hearted public support for a war of choice. Especially a stupid one that isn’t even being paid for. Too many people see the hypocrisy, the greed, the insanity.
    The rest of the people won’t see it until the inevitable catastrophe occurs.

11. Galen September 29th, 2007 1:22 pm

    And here is todays military…

    Listen to the ‘commentary’… disgusting.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=QCyzvTJguCs

    And these ‘fun loving’ boys will soon be coming home… bet you can’t wait for them to date your daughters and sisters.

    Don’tcha just feel proudern’shit.

12. jbs September 29th, 2007 1:29 pm

    Bob Cesca calls his article into question is the first sentence. he is captivated by ken burns. the man who only included the hispanic contribution to w.w.2 under duress. cesca also calls up the idea of manifest destiny and american exceptionalism by using the word awesome. Edward W. Wood Jr. in a book called “Worshipping the Myths of World War II: Reflections on America’s Dedication to War” stated the four myths of w.w.2 which are 1) The Good War. 2) The Greatest Generation. 3) We Won World War II Largely on Our Own. And 4), When Evil Lies in Others, War Is the Means to Justice. yesterday is not today and glorifying the past does nothing for the present. whether the metaphor is used by cesca or neocons

13. hubcap_halo September 29th, 2007 1:36 pm

    Basically he’s commenting on the golden age of the American Middle Class (and the most frankly ’socialist’ era of American History) — 1939 - 1980 (roughly)

14. seedeevee September 29th, 2007 1:44 pm

    Bob,

    Your heart attempts to be in the right place. Many would say the same of GWB.

    You still don’t get it.

    Your glorification of past wars and “sacrifice” is what drives the numbskulls of today. Our war in the Pacific was to reclaim and defend our colonies of the previous century. The acquisition of these colonies cost hundred of thousands of lives. The re-acquisition cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

    The SECOND world war in Europe was just a continuation of the first - which was over colonialism and how to divide the spoils of the world by the ruling elite. The only thing that changed was the names of the governments, the levels of mechanization of death and the individuals who got in the way.

    I am sorry to tell you - soldiers are terrorists. It is what militaries do. They terrorize other nations and militaries. Support a military and you support terrorism. It is just how it is.

    There is only one nation and one generation that has used an atomic weapon on human targets. Maybe that is the human “sacrifice” you should think about. Can Ken Burns make you feel good about that?

    Absence of, or, “little dissent” is a good thing? Ken Burns and yourself should make a very good documentary on Stalin.

    Once again, I am sorry. Peace is peace. War is war. The level of “sacrifice” does not equal rightousness.

15. grigor September 29th, 2007 1:51 pm

    gyptian is right - the only “honorable” period was the Depression and WW2. The capitalists were sweating about impending “socialist” ideas, then old brother Adolph provided them with a war. The rest of U.S. history is pretty dismal. [unless you were in the upper class. They’re still sucking the patriotism and glory out of WW2 - heroes, warriors, blah blah.

16. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 2:01 pm

    I do NOT believe America started the second world war SEEDEEVEE. In fact we stayed out of it as long as possible. After Japan attacked us, with no prior warning, Germany declared war on the United States. Of course we could have just sat back, done nothing I suppose and continued to much our popcorn while watching the war progress on Movie Tone News when we went to see a double feature movie. How often should one get smacked in the head before they strike back? But this disasterous war with Iraq, is nothing but war crimes committed by America.

17. Ramsay Mameesh September 29th, 2007 2:05 pm

    American Myth Used To Be Really Goddamn Awesome!
    by Ramsay Mameesh

    “I’ve been nauseated by Ken Burns’ The War this week and it struck me how deluded Americans remain.”

    I grew up on the same myth that Bob Cesca did, America saves the world from evil, and if everyone were like Americans the world would be a better place.

    It’s hard to let go of myths and face the truth. Myths are warm and comforting. The truth can be cold and hard.

    Bob, America was founded on genocide and slavery. Our economic growth has been, and continues to be, dependent on the domination and subjugation of foreign countries and peoples. No myth, no matter how we try, can escape that truth.

    Aren’t you sick of celebrating war? I find Ken Burns’ production sappy and jingoistic - and not nearly as good as the “Civil War”.

    Bob, Did you see the episode about the Phillipines? The one where that poor cute little white girl, kept a diary, while imprisoned with her family by the Japanese? The documentary mentions that her family was rich and owned a sugar plantation. Know how they got that sugar plantation? Forty years earlier the U.S. military killed 100,000 Phillipino’s when they resisted the U.S.’s imperialistic take-over of the Spanish colony. That’s right Bob, the Phillipino’s wanted freedom, but instead they got to work like indentured slaves on sugar plantations - not for the Japanese but for U.S. That didn’t make the show, did it Bob? No, because it doesn’t work well with the “Myth”.

    Another truth Bob? Hitler was rolling over Europe, killing Jews (we turned back a boat load of Jews, many of whom ended up in concentration camps, not in the show either), England was being bombed, the Japanese were raping Asia, and Americans didn’t give a damn! That’s right we didn’t care, didn’t want to care, we were sick of European wars, and weren’t interested in another one. The stupid Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, well you know the rest of the story, you can watch the documentary to find out.

    Fire bombing Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki,killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, were those really necessary to win the “good war”, like the myth says?

    I’m sick of war, I’m tired of talking about war, celebrating past wars, debating future wars. Bob, read Orwell to understand, how constant war and past victories, are utilized to control the people.

    America, the myth, is dying. And nothing you or, anyone else writing here, can save it.

    Since you like to use expletives in your writing, and before anyone jumps down my throat, for trying to shatter the myth, let me just say:

    My uncle received a Purple Heart in France, as a tank commander, for Patton. My great-uncles, were in the navy, and fought the Japanese in the Pacific. My grandmothers family village was exterminated, in Checkoslavakia, for resisting the Nazis (a movie was made about it).And my great-grandfather, was hauled off by the Gestapo in Nazi occupied Hungary, for flying an American flag from his balcony on the fourth of July. So, I can say and write whatever the fuck I want about the “Good War.”

    Cut the “Good War” crap out, it doesn’t help in any way, prevent the “Bad War” from happening. All wars are bad - even necessary ones.

    Ramsay

18. RichM September 29th, 2007 2:09 pm

    Though Cesca makes some good points, the idea that “America” was ever so heroic & wonderful is an entirely bogus idea. WWII is a cornerstone of the mythology, as jbs notes above.

    It’s horrifying to see that even here on CD, so many Americans have uncritically swallowed most of the mythology. As one example, zoya wrote above (12:53) “And don’t forget the best thing about WWII: the Marshall Plan — the American determination to put Europe back together in a way that brought out the best of the European character.”

    This is utter tommy-rot. Though that’s of course the way the Marshall Plan is always presented to us (”generous, noble & altruistic” etc), in fact it was an entirely self-serving plan. It was a conscious & deliberate effort to re-organize the world’s economic & political structure to make it maximally conducive to US global aspirations. It was a device for imposing US global dominance, entirely of a piece with the other major American initiatives of the period: the rise of the military-industrial complex, the rise of the national security state (CIA, etc); and the Cold War. // Communist parties were very popular in postwar Italy and France, & probably would have won elections in those countries, except that the US intervened. We made promises of US aid conditional — any country that didn’t drive all leftists out of government would not receive US assistance in reconstruction. That’s not “generous and noble” — it’s blackmail, & aggressive interference into the democratic lives of other nations.

    Another striking point about the WWII legend gullibly swallowed by brainwashed Americans — here’s a “news flash”: America didn’t win WWII. Actually, the Russians won it. You’d never know that from American glorifications of “The Good War,” would you. (Not from Ken Burns, either.) But in terms of who did most of the actual fighting and 99% of the dying, the Russians were the ones who “defeated fascism.” We assisted, on the margins. Our main role was not so much fighting as finance, & industrial production of required machinery & weapons.

19. iyamwutiam September 29th, 2007 2:14 pm

    I agree with gyptian-unfortunately. A more dispassionate and objective review of American history will show un-necessary wars and an expressway of broken promises that start with the American Indians, African-Americans extending themselves via “Manifest Destiny” to Mexico, the phillipines(Mark Twain poignaniant essay on how American troops -25 in number massacred 300 women,children and elderly hiding in an extinct volcano crater was incredibly moving), Cuba (atleast twice), etc and now to Iraq.

    Within the last 4 decades since the end of world war two (the so-called Golden years of a GOOD America– we have had undeclared wars on such ‘threats’ to humanity ranging from Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Grenada, El-Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Venezuela, Columbia, Panama (again more than one), Iran with the placement of the Shah, Iraq with the placement and displacement of Saddam Hussien, not to mention Lebanon.

    Don’t get me wrong - I am not a ‘hater’ but I do recognize the fact -that too many of us -simply choose to “forget” the multiple wars and usurping of democracies instigated, supported, planned etc by the ‘greatest” country in the world. None of this is NEWS - and quite frankly Chomsky’s -”Hegemony or Survial” is but one tome that has AMPLY documented the fact that the only people who don’t know this is Americans.

    This is only partly due to the illusion of free speech but I am sure more emphatically due to wearing spectacles that are heavily tinted with nationa pride and fogged over with the condensation of lies meeting the cold air of truth. At some point- jingoistic movies, and gross exaggeration of half-truths tend to wear off -its like advertising in some way - after a ceaseless barrage -the individual shuts down and realizes that the grains of truth are ever fewer and ever smaller.

    This is not to say that this does not DEFINTELY apply to other so-called civilized countries like Belgium (the Congo), Germany and France (too much too list), Russia, Australia, Japan etc. However- one must realize that these injustices have been supported by the best fertilizer a government can have - which is indifference to the consequences to others (even if it means we are talking in the billions of souls) -in order to have the house, white picket fence , two car garage with 3 cars and the requisite 2.2 kids.

20. hp September 29th, 2007 2:20 pm

    Feel good propaganda.
    The truth is, and yes it sucks, is that only TWICE in its history have American soldiers truly fought for freedom. First, the American Revolution and second, the confederate soldiers for their freedom as per the Constitution.
    All the other wars were business/banker wars. Period.

    Now go ahead and parrot the Nazi evil, Soviet threat, Communist threat, yada yada.

    Think about it and the truth, not what you want or need the truth to be.

21. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 2:20 pm

    RICHM, I won’t say you are full of shit, don’t wish too be as obnoxious as you are with your one sided comments about the thousands of Americans who died and or who were seriously wounded fighting Japan and Germany. Certainly the Russians fought bravely and they suffered greatly from Hitler’s war. They didn’t win the war all by their lonesome though. They didn’t lose thousands of bomber crew members who bombed the German industrial complex to the stone age. Russia didn’t have to fight massive sea battles and lose thousands of men to submarine warfare, men bravely taking supplies to England and Russia. Russians didn’t have to land on the shores of France and then fight across France to gain entry into Germany. They didn’t fight the Germans in North Africa and Italy. If America had not fought in World War Two, Hitler could have easily won and Russia would have been part of Hitler’s Thousand year reign. If Russia hadn’t been in it, the war would have dragged on for another year or two.
    So stow your one sided bull, it was a world war and everyone who fought the Germans and Japanese deserves th e full credit due.

22. Galen September 29th, 2007 2:22 pm

    KEM: Sorry, the US gov’t knew Pearl Harbour was coming. They had broken the Japanese ‘Purple’ code months before, and had been listening in as it were for the entire planning phase. Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen, as the US gov’t needed an excuse to expand it’s presence in the Pacific and retake the Phillipine Islands, as well as spur the economy by rebuilding the soon to be mothballed Pacific fleet battle ships. Battleships that had been proven to be catastrophicly vulnerable to aircraft, and they needed an excuse to appropriate funds to build aircraft carriers.

    Should we mention that Henry ford, icon of American capitalism, agreed with and supported the murderou policies of Hitler. Bush’s own grandaddy sat on the Board of IG Farben, maker of the Zyclon B gas used in the death camps, as well as being Hitler’ banker. He was censured by Congress for trading with the enemy.

    During the war, advanced Nazi aircraft were shot down and inside the cockpit was flight instrumentation maufactuerd in Kansas. The LATEST flight instrumentation.

    Adn after the war how many Nazi scientists were snapped up during Project Paperclip? The same scientists who had operated in the death camps. Or worked slave labour to death in the rocket facility in Penemunde. The iconic, archetypal ‘rocket scientist’ Wehrner von Braun was one such.

    The US participated in the firebombings of Dresden, Hamburg and Rotterdam. Acts of war and horror that killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Except in Germany, the victims weren’t flashed into vapour. They slowly roasted and suffocated.

23. kelmer September 29th, 2007 2:24 pm

    “It’s like saying a doofus villain like Solomon Grundy is the next Lex Luthor.”

    **Ah yes Solomon Grundy. I prefer Gorilla Grodd myself.
    Bob–I admire your geeky affection for DC Comics, but real life doesnt work like a comic book(well, maybe an Alan Moore one).

    If you want a story about super heroes fighting and a more realistic and honest portrayal of war, try the Iliad by Homer.

24. lillulu September 29th, 2007 2:26 pm

    Tired, old Republican lie that needs to be retired: “We didn’t ask for this war. We were hit on 9/11″ (because BushCo ignored the many warnings).

    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. The GOP liars think we’re all stupid.

    Since the subject of my post is Republican lies, here’s another whopper: “Canadians come here for medical care so they don’t have to wait to see a doctor.” haha

    Snowbirds from Canada may occasionally see an American doctor when some of them are here for a few months during the winter, but that doesn’t mean they hate their socialized medicine.

    I’ve been to Canada several times on vacation, and the Canadians have told me they are very happy with their health care system and do not want anything like American health care.

    By the way, I know plenty of people who have told me here in the U.S. that they have to wait several weeks to see a doctor. That’s what the right-wingers approve of; not enough doctors available so that exorbitant rates can be charged for services when a patient is finally seen.

25. seedeevee September 29th, 2007 2:31 pm

    Kem Patrick,

    Did you read my post? I don’t recall saying anything about who started the war. In fact, I specifically said “The SECOND world war in Europe was just a continuation of the first.”

    But it is good to know what you “do NOT believe”. Perhaps you should read some history on what was occurring in Asia before “Japan attacked us, with no prior warning”. There is that little thing about our previous invasion of Japan by Commodore Perry, our WWII-era blockade of raw materials into Japan, etc.

    Our national ignorance is no less today than it was before. Perhaps, with study, you will understand that the German and Japanese people were fed the same “How often should one get smacked in the head before they strike back?” propaganda.

26. RichM September 29th, 2007 2:39 pm

    Kem Patrick — Your indignation is ridiculous. I didn’t say a word against the American soldiers who died. I merely pointed out that Russia did most of the fighting; whereas, in the usual American accounts of the war, the impression is constantly conveyed that “we” won the whole thing, all by ourselves.

    Roughly 250,000 Americans died fighting in WWII — all military, and virtually none civilian. Roughly 25 million Russians died. Notice the difference?

27. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 2:39 pm

    Hi Galen. You are correct, except for one very important thing. Roosevelt didn’t know WHEN Japan would strike, and although the code was broken, not everythng Japan planned was broadcast over the radio airways. Rossevelt did not have suffecint intelligence to start a war with Japan, nor did the American public wish to become involved in the war in Europe. Roosevelt and Marshall did have enough intel to warn the commanders of Pearl Harbor, they should elevate their security and prepardness. Of course that had been done months prior to Dec 7, 41. The military became compalcient and never dreampt Japan would launch an air attack against Pearl Harbor. General Billy Mitchell did, he predicted it, __ but no one, or very few listened.

28. ch473 September 29th, 2007 2:58 pm

    my grandmother can no longer buy bacon because it’s too expensive.

29. gyptian September 29th, 2007 2:59 pm

    Ramsay … excellent post.

    The people living under the British empire did not and cannot see the difference between the Germans and the British. You have to look at it from a totally different view to understand it. WW2 was a ‘good’ war for Americans and the British but it did not ’save’ the world. All the heroics by the Americans in WW2 was to save themselves maybe and the capitalist system. 60 years ago if you asked a Philipino or an Indian if they preferred the Germans or Americans/British they would have looked at you in disbelief !

30. curmudgeon99 September 29th, 2007 3:00 pm

    What you all forget is the tremendous support for Nazi Germany that existed in the US - just google ‘German-American Bund’.

    It was not even just the industrialists and other notables - Ford, Lindberg, Walker(yes that Walker). It was a very large organization. My father used to talk about its influence. There are those who say that if Pearl Harbor had not happened, the US would have joined the war on the side of the Axis.

    Even being at war with Germany made no difference to some corporations. After all the Walker side of the Bush family bank represented the 3rd Reich until late 1942.

    Much of this is documented in a book titled “America, Inc. - who owns and operates the US”. This book is a good background for the current corporatist environment. I first read it 35 years ago.

    Mintz, Morton and Cohen, Jerry S. “America, Inc.: Who Owns and Operates the United States.” New York: Dell Publishing, 1971. 424 pages.
    Morton Mintz, a Washington Post reporter, and Jerry S. Cohen, former chief counsel of the Senate Antitrust and Monopoly Subcommittee, teamed up in the 1970s to write two blockbuster books — America, Inc. and Power, Inc. — on corruption in the U.S. Both cover the same territory: bribery, profiteering, special-interest lobbying, politicians, regulatory agencies, monopolies, concentration of power in the media, white collar crime, lack of accountability, government and corporate secrecy, influence of big money on elections, the national security state, and self-dealing in the professions (doctors, dentists, accountants, banks, unions, insurance). Both also use the same technique of making a point my naming names and giving specific examples culled from news accounts and other sources.
    Remember, this was the 1970s when corruption wasn’t an issue in America. Two decades later the infrastructure is collapsing, the economy is sick, and the shrinking middle class is wondering how their kids will afford an education and be able to buy their own homes. The dollar value of the examples provided in these books provokes barely a yawn these days — after the deficits, savings and loan scandals, junk bonds, and golden parachutes of the 1980s. But Mintz and Cohen saw it coming, and it’s not their fault that no one addressed the issue while there was still time.
    ISBN unavailable

31. safiyyah September 29th, 2007 3:05 pm

    Ken Burn’s stuff is pro war propaganda and is sponsored on PBS by Mobil Oil. His take is simply that WW2 was ‘the good war’ that all other US wars have tried to also be, but have simply failed to measure up. We were tough back then, he thinks, and righteous. All this is the familiar US academic rewriting of history though.

    The reality waas far more nuanced. In fact, it was the Chinese and Russians that took the bite out out of our enemies, and then the US jumped in to promptly betray the anti-Fascist Resistance everywhere.

    Then we turned on Russia and China and fought them for decades, threatening to use nuclear weapons to destroy those peoples.

    We also backed up the Portuguese and Spanish fascists for decades after 1945, and backed the racist South African White Apartheid regime and the Zionist oppression of the indigenous population of the Middle East. This was all a grand continuation of the ‘good war’, was it not?

    Some folk at my local Justice and Peace group also liked this PBS nonsense. They saw it as somehow being antiwar! I just don’t get how so many liberal folk can get led around so easily on these issues? Painting a picture of war as being nasty yet somehow necessary is not my idea of a Peace theme.

32. RuthK September 29th, 2007 3:07 pm

    I watched “The War”. I was a child during WW2 and watching the program caused me to remember things about it.

    Our current war, contrary to Bush’s claim, is nothing like the second world war. While it is true that we were never bombed, everyone was involved with the war.

    We saved everything. I remember that it was my job to flatten the tin cans. I would take them outside and jump up and down on them. We bundled up newspapers and other paper, saved string (I have no idea why), and gave away clothes that got too small. Everything was rationed - gas, food. Since there was so little gas, we walked almost everywhere. As little as I was, I and my bicycle basket were used to bring home groceries. There was a sign at our local grocery that would never be there now. It said, “Ladies, bring your fat cans in on Friday.” Yes, we saved grease. It could be used in munitions.

    There with small banners in windows with stars on them. The number of stars indicated the number of family members in service. All of us knew someone who had been killed. Our neighbor’s son went down with his ship. I remember trying to figure out what it was like to be “buried at the bottom of the ocean”.

    We had an army camp nearby. After church on Sunday, any soldiers that had come to the service were sent home to dinners with church members. Southern Indiana was certainly not integrated, but there were black soldiers and, since they were our boys in uniform, they were included.

    Everyone was happy when the war ended. I had a special reason. I liked to listen to my programs on the radio. I remember the “Long Ranger” was one of them. If my father was home, we had to hear the war news instead. It was never the news, but always the war news. When the war ended, I thought there wouldn’t be any more news and I could listen to my programs.

    The idea that Bush would try to compare the “War on Terror” with this is disgusting.

33. colleen September 29th, 2007 3:08 pm

    If the US had joined the League of Nations and the world had united against Hitler early on there might not have been a WWII.

    Hitler never won more than 40% of the German vote. He could have been stopped if there had been an EU

    But that generation was very racist and nationalistic and xenophobic. Plus they had arranged for extreme punitive measures against Germany after WWI, which created an atmosphere that led to a second war.

    But the greatness of the time was the Marshall Plan and a restructuring of the German government and the school system, that changed the German culture. (A hint for how to change Iraq)

    Fighting in a war indicates a failure. War should be avoided and not glorified.

    Where are the films glorifying the Marshall Plan? Hmmm?

34. holymoly September 29th, 2007 3:20 pm

    Galen, I agree. History seems to support that FDR planned for Pearl Harbor, allowed it to happen, all because he wanted to come to Britian’s aid. His motivations were good, I think–he saw Hilter taking over the world and Churchill was constantly asking for help. Still, FDR had to convince a pacifist nation to go to war. While it is true that the Japanese tried to pull a sneak attack, it is also true that the U.S. had cut off her oil supply and expected her to retaliate. It looks like the commander at Peral Harbor was the only one not informed of what was going to happen–and he was made a scapegoat. It is hard to accept this, just as it is hard to accept that 9-11 was an inside job–but if it looks like a dead rat and smells like one, it probably is one. Don’t get me wrong, the Japanese were absolute savages in WWII (their soldiers), but that is no excuse for Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those scientists wanted to know what those bombs would do to pristine targets–targets that had never suffered war damage. My dad fought the Japanese in the Philipines and was on his way to invade Japan. He was not looking forward to fighting the Japanese on their soil, and when they dropped the bombs, he knew the war was over. So, he believed to his dying day that the bombs probably saved his life and the life of his buddies. This, at least, is what they were told by our government–although there is evidence that the Japanese would have surrendered without dropping those bombs–and if not, surely one bomb would have done it instead of two.

    If someone were to cut off our oil supply like we did the Japanese, well, you know what would happen–just the threat of not controlling oil has brought us the current “conflict” in Iraq. Years ago, when I was very young and travelling in a Grayhound Bus, I met a young man from Japan. He was seeing the U.S. We tried to talk through a dictionary. He tried to tell me that Japan was justified in bombing Pearl Harbor, but I was so brainwashed by the school system, I couldn’t even listen to his defense. When I became an adult and began to self-educate, I began to see that he had his points–I was just too brainwashed to listen.

    Soo, while my father thought he should join the army at 18 and go make the world safe from Hitler (and was sent to the Pacific instead), Bush’s granddaddy and the American Corporations were getting rich off of Nazi slave labor and by providing funds to Hitler. Funny little world isn’t it? It is what happens when you are fucking brainwashed and are played like a fiddle by those in power. So shut the fuck up Ken Burns about the “good war.” There is no such thing!!! The Bushes still rule–get admitted to Ivy League schools, run the CIA, join their Skull and Bones secret societies–worship their own devils. Farm boy’s kid just tries to get an education and eek out a living in some way that doesn’t screw others over–hard to do in this country.

    Also, I am tired of the educational system lying to us. I was never told in school that Bush’s old granddaddy, Prescott Bush, was Hitler’s banker–the more things change the more they stay the same. I was brainwashed about “the good war” and then, during Vietnam, we were told to make reports in civics class–if you didn’t toe the line and say we were stopping the Commies in Asia, you would get a big fat F. So, please…I’m just sick of glorifying war when the bankers and corporations got rich off of it, and all the poor old farm boys like my dad did the fighting. (But we have to give George, Sr. credit for being a fighter pilot, don’t we?) At least he was not a chickenhawk like Cheney and dubya.

    Quit glorifying war!!! I say again. Instead, get the truth out. Buy a kid Howard Zinn’s “Peoples History of the United STates.” Do something for truth. Educate someone about Operation Paper Clip–bringing the Nazi scientists here to continue their “work” even if it be psy-ops. Fuck Ken Burns and Saving Private Ryan, too! If the economic systems of the world hadn’t been fuck-ups making the rich richer and starving the German people, Hitler would not have had a snowball’s chance in hell of coming to power. If people are starving, they will fight. The German people were starving and Hitler seemed to give them a way out. I am so tired of all that smug bullshit we were taught in school about how the Germans are a “warlike people” and we are different, because we are the good guys and we wouldn’t do stuff like the Nazis did. Well, Bush and Company have sure blown that theory out of the water, hasn’t they? The only good thing about Bush is that he has forced this country to take a look at its smugness, if nothing else. I never ever want to hear anyone ask again how the “good Germans” could have allowed such a thing to happen. I suppose the answer is, the same way the “good Americans” are allowing what is going on in Iraq.

    We need some Truth in History like we need a real investigation into 9-11. We need to know what happened to bring about WWII so that we can work to prevent it–but, of course, we know, don’t we? IT IS ALWAYS ABOUT THE MONEY. It is always about the bankers and the Bushes and the Haliburton’s and the Black Waters and the fighting over resources that one side has and the other one wants–lusting after things that are not ours.

35. simonhhh September 29th, 2007 3:24 pm

    Galen September 29th, 2007 2:22 pm [KEM: Sorry]

    “The US gov’t knew Pearl Harbour was coming. They had broken the Japanese ‘Purple’ code months before, and had been listening in as it were for the entire planning phase. Pearl Harbour was ALLOWED to happen, as the US gov’t needed an excuse to expand it’s presence in the Pacific and retake the Phillipine Islands…..”

    CORRECT…..CORRECT…..CORRECT…..
    _____________________________________________

    This Article describing Bu$hCo’s destruction of America’s Character for all the aforesaid reasons is another reason for IMPEACHMENT ON THE TABLE….

36. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 3:32 pm

    RICH M. You are incorrect, You gave us your (”NEWS FLASH” ___ Russia WON The War.) Russia did NOT win WW11 nor did they do MOST of the fighting, __ you are full of it on that score.

    The war in Europe was not just Russia fightng a land war against Germany. The 25 million dead in Russia was the direct result of Joseph Stalin___ signing a non-agression pact with Hitler ___ and planning to take the spoils of war. Beware signing a pact with the devil.

    I do take unbridge with ANY who state Russia WON the war and then some may give death figures to prove a ridiculous point. Most of those dead in Russia were civilian casulties and the ‘total fault’ of Stalin, they were not all deaths of solders, sailors and airmen, fighting the Italian and German military forces. ___ Ours were.

    Had we not entered the war, the best estimates by those who spend their lives studying such, firmly believe Germany would have won the war in Europe and very well may have had atomic weapons at the same time, or before we did. Do you think or believe they may have just tested them?

    Your assertions that the Marshall plan wasd only for our benefit is wrong also. The Marshall plan was designed to do exactly what it did do, help to bring Germany back to where it should have been, had Hitler not squandered their econony on war materials, and to help France back where they ended up, a world power who could contribute to the good of all of humanity. That was the plan, it didn’t all go according to plan of course, once the politicians and crooks got into it.

37. colleen September 29th, 2007 3:41 pm

    holymoly

    There may also be something in human nature that relishes war and glorifies it. A film about the Marshall Plan sounds boring to many but a film showing fighting in a war is viewed as exciting. (but I can envision a film about the people living during the Marshall Plan that could be quite interesting…with many human interest stories possible)

    Anyway imo it is the many young men who love violence that can also be a part of the problem with humanity choosing war to settle disputes to gain power and money. They want the excitement of war.

38. gyptian September 29th, 2007 3:52 pm

    “Most of those dead in Russia were civilian casulties and the ‘total fault’ of Stalin, they were not all deaths of solders, sailors and airmen, fighting the Italian and German military forces. ___ Ours were”

    So I suppose by this logic we are not to blame for the 1 million Iraqi deaths in the last 4 years. They are civilians and dont count. We should however really be outraged by the 3000 marines who died fighting a horrible dictator. Wow !! There is no cure for American logic.

    And bringing Germany and France back to power is supposed to save ‘humanity’ !!! I have a headache …

39. lillulu September 29th, 2007 3:53 pm

    I’m trying to figure out why people celebrate and glorify war in this country. Is it because greedy old men get richer and young men feel powerful killing defenseless civilians? Or maybe because the weapon$ manufacturer$ of the world’s strongest military don’t want their products to gather dust in storage? Gotta keep those bombs moving, eh? Would people in the U.S. be so gung-ho for war if the country wasn’t the world’s superpower? To me, all reasons are just plain evil. Just curious….

    Galen, thank you for your informative posts. I watched the youtube video. It makes a person wonder why the soldiers are so very ecstatic that they killed people who have never harmed them — in a country that was and is no threat to the U.S. They must be sociopaths.

40. bligh September 29th, 2007 3:54 pm

    The Soviet Union DID bear the brunt of the fighting with the Wermacht during World War II, killing almost 3/4 of all the German soldiers killed during World War II. Of course, like most statements, this isn’t really the whole story.

    For instance, the Soviet Union was Germany’s chief Ally during the first 2 years of the war, urging the Fuhrer to “destroy the decadent Western Democracies” (Molotov 1940).The last day of peace, June 20, 1941 saw over 400 trainloads of material sent to support Nazi Germany’s war effort. In addition, in the two years before the Germans attacked, The Soviet seized half of
    Poland, 1/6 of Finland, 1/3 of Romania, and 100% of Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia.

    other forgotten facts:

    - The soviets knew about the planned Japanese attack against the United States and Britain before it happened due to their spy network in Japan.

    - The Soviets killed FOUR TIMES more German civilians in the first 6 months of 1945 (two million) than were killed in five years of bombardment by the Americans and British (500,000).

    - The Soviets murdered virtually the entire Polish officer corps at Katyn forest in 1940.

    - The Soviets were “put on wheels” by the shipments (at great cost) by the United States and Britain.

    The Soviet Union Did fight heroically during World War II. They did so, however, only after being attacked by their chief ally- Nazi Germany.

41. Daniel David September 29th, 2007 3:55 pm

    To RuthK (9/29 3:07p)

    Thanks for sharing your memories, and correctly noting that Mr. Bush doesn’t serve us well if he tries to solicit support for one war by comparing it to another, when they’re quite different from each other.

    WWII, as bad as it was, at least had an end because it was fought against regimes that could fall and be replaced. The idea of a war on “terror” is a concept that can be constantly redefined, and other than staying on to police every location that has Muslims who are mad at Western culture, it is very hard to know where any end might be found.

42. millercopter September 29th, 2007 3:58 pm

    Same people,selling the same shit.

43. cinnamon September 29th, 2007 3:59 pm

    Role of the Russians
    Would anyone agree that the war was “won” if by anyone, by the russian tanks on the field of kursk
    much of the “shared sacrifice ” was propaganda, eg the drives to get ordinary citizens to collect scrap metal were just a propaganda stunt to get the citizenry involved
    don’t forget, many people were, until pearl harbor, isolationists
    And above all, just we have abandoned the people of darfur, and Kennedy abandonded the Biafrans,FDR did precious little to help the jews.

44. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 4:07 pm

    I did’t say that GYPTIAN, I was replying to the remarks of another blogger. I don’t believe ANY deaths of non-combatents due to any war are justified, not one. So please don’t assume.

    I also didn’t write that helping to bring France and Germany back from destrction would insure they would “save” humanity. I wrote they could contribute to the good of all humanity, (which is what I would have desired and believe General Marshall wanted to see that also. Do you suffer from a reading comprehension disability because of headaches?

45. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 4:23 pm

    CINNAMON, Would the Russians have won the tank war on the fields of Kursk HAd we not been fighting the German army in France and bombing the industrial complex of Germany and destroying their oil refineries? It was not a one sided war, any who beieve that are delusional.

    And whoever wrote that we sat back and didn’t lift a finger when Hitler started his riegn of world domination is correct. We watched and did little to help, and we damn sure didn’t help the Jews, or the Poles, or the British, or the French, or the Dutch etc. No, we didn’t want any part of the war in Europe or the war in China and Burma. But when we were forced into it, we did good, all of us, and I was proud to be an American. I hate to say it, but I’m not proud anymore. I’m ashamed now.

46. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 4:39 pm

    SIMONHHH, What? Japan didn’t attack the Phillipines, until AFTER Pearl Harbor.

    Roosevelt did not know the Japanese plans for Pearl Harbor. He shoUld have konwn it WAS A distinct possibility. He did not know all of the Japanese plans. I do beleive he insured the military at Pearl harbor were not warned in time, when they did learn there was to be an attack someplace against U.S. forces. Our military knew Japan was formulating plans to attack the Phillipines, Burma, and the other countries in that area. That had been known for months prior to Pearl Harbor. If and when they initiated the plans was not known.

    I also am certain, Roosevelt was pleased as punch when Japan did attack us, and especially pleaded and also amazed, that Germany declared war on us the following day. Roosevelt knew that if America sat and did nothing, Hitler would eventually control Europe and eventually attack us. We Americans citizens were united in our efforts against getting into it and had we waited long enough, we would have had a war here in America, starting on our east and west coasts at the same time.

47. coco September 29th, 2007 4:43 pm

    ch473

    thankyou for that highly amusing interlude.
    whilst people are arguing over who did or didn’t win the bloody war, others are being killed because of it and grandmothers cannot afford to buy bacon.

48. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 4:56 pm

    Hi COCO. People are what they eat. Anyone want to be a beaver?

49. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 4:58 pm

    To save a tree of course.

50. Dichterfreund September 29th, 2007 5:10 pm

    “Harry was in some ways akin to Dennis Kucinich,”

    Truman dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, knowing they were civilians; and not just one, but two. While it’s understandable that soldiers & their families bought the lie that it was necessary to ’save lives,’ we know better.

    Harry Truman introduced loyalty oaths, because like today’s Democrats, he was afraid of “being soft” on the enemy — then commies, now “terries” (to coin an appropriately stupid nickname for the omnipresent TERRORIST).

    “Cut the “Good War” crap out, it doesn’t help in any way, prevent the “Bad War” from happening. All wars are bad - even necessary ones.”

    I agree. So would WWII vets Paul Fussell, Norman Mailer, Joseph Heller, Howard Zinn and the late great Kurt Vonnegut.

    “itler was rolling over Europe, killing Jews (we turned back a boat load of Jews, many of whom ended up in concentration camps, not in the show either), England was being bombed, the Japanese were raping Asia, and Americans didn’t give a damn! That’s right we didn’t care, didn’t want to care, we were sick of European wars, and weren’t interested in another one. The stupid Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, well you know the rest of the story, you can watch the documentary to find out.”

    It should be mentioned that it was the anti-immigrant fervor of the 1920s that introduced the quotas that were in force at the time, and while reactionaries dismiss FDR as some sort of proto-socialist dictator, he could not simply wave away an act of Congress.

    All the nations which had developed electoral mechanisms & checks & balances were established by wars; the Great War came as an utter shock to people who thought they were too civilized to slaughter each other (tho’ not, of course, barbarians under imperial rule); fascism rose as a sort of brutal but unhypocritical response to 1914-1918. While democratic countries were trying to create the international machinery to cut loose from the past, the fascists, like today’s neocons, affirm war, occupation & subjugation; they believed that destruction is fundamentally creative, an affirmation of spirit over flesh.

    Only a movement which aims at eliminating entirely the idea of national spirit or national mission can undo the force of the belief in war.

51. mookie September 29th, 2007 5:20 pm

    Is this author a complete fucking moron?

    “..elevates Bin Laden or the late Saddam or the present Ahmadinejad to a level of villainy they also don’t deserve.” –
    No, not a bit. They’re all little sweethearts. Saddam who mass murdered his own people, Ahmadinejad who wants to wipe Israel off the map and was elected by a bunch of Jihaddist nuts, and the lovely Bin Laden who was involved in bombing NYC.

    “Conversely, when we crumble to the pressure of our reactionary and authoritarian elements, we get Japanese internment camps..”
    The Japanese internment camps were installed by our wonderful FDR..(a left-wing dictator.)

    “The pendulum keeps swinging further to the right” -
    No. Actually, it alternatively swings from the left to the right and back to left again. What it does do is become increasingly more authoritarian…hint: less libertarian.

52. Ken Hausle September 29th, 2007 5:24 pm

    Dichterfreund - You are indeed a close friend.

    Lets just take the “war” out of “awareness”. Creativity could expand exponentially if war was taken out of the picture. Yes creativity and destruction are two sides of a coin, but we can choose which side to emphasize.

    Oh how i pray for Peace.

    Peace,
    Ken Hausle

53. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 6:06 pm

    SEEDEEVEE, what year did Commodore Perry attack Japan? Who is it that needs to study history?

    We did not blockade Japan, we did refuse to sell them raw industrial materials, ___ AFTER they began to use their finances to build a massive military force, a massive ‘offensive’ army, navy and air force.

    At that time in history, we had cut our military might to the bone. Much of our military training was done with wooden, fireless rifles and wooden cannon. We used trucks with wood guns as tanks and armored cars. We did have a decent naval fleet, but it did not compare at all to that of Japan in 1941, nor did our air force compare with any other industrialized country.

    Yes, we attempted to stop Japan from importing critical metals and oil, from us and other countries, but we did not use force or blockade them. There was a damn good reason for that as it turned out. Japan could have been a good trading country of commercial merchandise, ___ they chose war and started it with China and then us. There are usually two opposite sides to a coin. The point is, at that time in history, we were not a horrible nation, ____ we are now.

54. RichM September 29th, 2007 6:21 pm

    The Marshall Plan (for those who, like Kem Patrick, don’t know this) was devised by the same people, and at the same time, as the IMF, the World Bank, & the GATT (the forerunner of the WTO). At the same time, the military industrial complex emerged, the Cold War was launched, & the CIA was established. Anyone who thinks these institutions & policies were set up for any purpose other than the establishment of US world hegemony prefers fairy tales to the actual history.

    Calling the Marshall Plan “noble, altruistic, generous” etc is similar to Bush saying we’re occupying Iraq to bring them “freedom and democracy.” It’s a standard deceit for great powers to claim noble goals, when they’re really acting out of self-interest. The US is at least as guilty of this as other great powers have been.

55. frank1569 September 29th, 2007 6:38 pm

    Are we watching the same documentary? Burns points out that our “great” government knew the Pearl Harbor attack was coming more than nine hours before - and no action was taken. (A repeat of our “new Pearl Harbor” - they knew something big was coming, the CIA’s “hair was on fire,” - and no action was taken.)

    Burns also points out that the reason Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen was because Americans were still vehemently opposed to engaging in another war to save Europe, millions of dead Jews or not.

    Once committed, we were all in, sure. But that doesn’t make us “goddamn great.” A goddamn great country would not have hesitated to step when the moment it learned an entire people were being targeted for elimination.

    Then we dropped those goddamn great nukes even though Japan was begging to surrender…

56. einstein September 29th, 2007 6:45 pm

    Boy am I sick of this WWII crap. WWII was not different from any other war. It was a war fought because of the irresponsibility, corruption and criminality of powerful people in the governments and in big business in all of the countries involved, including the US.

    After the rich and corrupt created and financed Hitler, they sent in the poor and the middle class to get killed in a war against him. In the aftermath the US imported a lot of Nazis into its intelligence apparatus.

57. seedeevee September 29th, 2007 6:46 pm

    KEM PATRICK - I have studied history. That is why I don’t have to look up when the US first invaded ( not “attack”) Japan. As to your reading comprehension problem, I can not help you.

    Google can be a wonderful thing. But not to a closed mind. Look up “Perry and black ships” if you need to understand the history. Even better, read a history book. There was this period in time called “The Colonization of the World by the Western Powers”.

58. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 7:14 pm

    SEEDEEVEE___ If my memory serves me properly, I do not have to look it up. Commodore Perry negotiated the first trade treaty with Japan and our country in the 1850s. Japan was a closed nation at that time and refused to trade with almost everyone. I would not call that an invasion of Japan by Commodore Perry, even though he refused to leave the Japanese port unless he was heard, and he did threaten to bombard the city, which is now Tokyo. I do not remember the original name of the city. There was never an invsion of Japan by us until we invaded Okinawa durng the Second World War. We never invaded the home Islands of Japan. We did bomb them. ___ They did ask for it. Thank you for your reply.

59. blessthebeasts September 29th, 2007 7:17 pm

    I refuse to watch “The War” because it’s obviously a ploy to make us feel all warm and fuzzy about the military. Aw shucks, maybe we really do need to liberate the Iraqis.

60. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 7:24 pm

    BTW, I taught world history and geo-politics for three years. My students loved me, ___ I was good. In my 71 years, this is
    the first time any ever alluded to the fact, that I have a closed mind. I have been accused of being stupid by some and arrogant by some and a lot of fun by many. Thank you once more SEEDEEVEE, it is always nice to finally be on a list.

61. Io Q. Lellity September 29th, 2007 7:39 pm

    No, america was not once great. And I’m not sacrificing a damn thing so that a president never elected into office can MURDER middle eastern HUMANS. If you claim to be against war and then agree with the sentiments expressed in this article, you are suffering from brain damage. Boycott the fucking war effort!

62. greengal September 29th, 2007 7:40 pm

    Great posts, Ramsey and Holymoly!! The commentary is much much better than the article.

63. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 7:47 pm

    RICH M, actually, I didn’t know your version of the Marshall plan. The one I know of was drafted by the then Secretary of State Marshall in 1948 and was designed, with our monetry assistance, to rebuild the infastructures and agriculture of the European nations, who were suffering from food shortages and lack of industry.

    The European ntions were very appreciative and it worked. Indeed, I am certan some had reasons other than noble, it was also good business and we did not wish to see all of Europe becoming Communist nations. Does it harm to have good business, or are you one of the self employed wealthy, who may believe all big business is corrupt? I do believe Marshall recieved the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts in that respect, but am not positive of that.

    If you had, or have better ideas of what we should have done to assist war torn Europe, or maybe you will have thought of something by Monday, perhaps you could share your wisdom on the subject. Monday morning quarterbacks are sometimes fun to read, but usually are one sided comments that are sensless and rather boring.

64. claudius September 29th, 2007 7:54 pm

    Hi Kem,

    I am just curious. Why did you give up teaching?

65. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 8:11 pm

    Hi Claudius. I lost the sight of an eye and had a lot of trouble with the other, still do, ever notice my speling?

    LO Q LELLITY. I sure do agree that ‘Starfish’ Bush is a disaster and the war with Iraq is an unjustified crime. But America was not once great? Well, that word depends upon the person who wishes to determine what great means I guess. I will be the first to say America has never been perfect and under some presidents we have been horrible. We also have really never quite reached the status of being a true Democracy. But, in comparrison to others, we could at times be classified as being GREAT.

    America has never been perfect, not always good or great, but oh, so much better than most. Now, we are perhaps among the worst in my ‘humble’ estimation. I do blame it on a cowardly press and and a cowardly, dishonest, corrupt Congress and a pitiful, Supreme Court and a lot of sorry citizens, who refuse to learn the issues and then vote. Of course there are other problems to numerous to mention here without writng a book.

66. mookie September 29th, 2007 8:12 pm

    KEM PATRICK and Galen (and others) are all correct in certain respects.

    America did not start WWII. Prescott Bush did finance Hitler’s rise to power. That was Prescott Bush, not the US government. The US government did know of Pearl Harbor (FDR - left-wing dictator) and his silence about it and ulterior motives, I don’t doubt were evil. The US did do other horrendous things like turn away refugees and employ nazi war criminals.

    On the other hand, the American soldiers were clamoring to sign up to fight the Nazis. I know this first hand from my dad and my uncles and from reading about it. They fought valiantly and many lost their lives. They went against orders to save holocaust victims. If it weren’t for those brave American soldiers Europe would be a huge Nazi concentration camp-nightmare now.

67. gyptian September 29th, 2007 8:14 pm

    KEM … my reading comprehension may be flawed but your literary diarhhea can cause serious harm to the less wary bloggers.

    While your assessment of our current ‘war/s’ is fairly accurate for the most part, your attempt to glorify ‘America’ and our involvement in WW2 does not fully hold up to scrutiny.

    RichM, SeeDeeVee, Dichter, Holymoly etc are correct about the Marshall Plan and WW2 etc. We were never saints, we were/are a bunch of capitalist isolationists who dont really care about anything as long as our mass consumption needs are met at whatever cost. If Pearl Harbor didnt happen we would have continued our economic engagement with the Nazis as long as it was profitable.

68. Daniel David September 29th, 2007 8:18 pm

    Dichterfreund,

    Truman was in SOME ways like Kucinich. Both are honest, forthright, short of stature, and Truman was first to advocate national health insurance, as Kucinich is first to advocate doing national health insurance right–single payer. Atomic bomb, maybe not.
    I don’t believe Kucinich is a mishy-mouth peacenik, even though he rightly advocates strength through peace.
    Had Kucinich inherited a presidency in wartime, as Truman did, I believe he also would have the fortitude to conclude it (successfully.)

69. claudius September 29th, 2007 8:20 pm

    Kem,

    One of my favorite books is “Tuesdays with Morrie.”

70. mookie September 29th, 2007 8:21 pm

    holymoly — “just as it is hard to accept that 9-11 was an inside job–but if it looks like a dead rat and smells like one, it probably is one.”

    I believe in the bottom of my heart, though cannot prove, that the US was involved with the 9/11 attacks. It really does stink.

71. purvis ames September 29th, 2007 8:27 pm

    Let’s just remember that that was then and this is now. A film glorifying war at this particular moment made by a jerk-off financed by GM and GE is nothing short of a piece of Leni Riefenstahl style Nazi propaganda. The relentlous promotion of this latter day version of “Victory at Sea” is disgusting and depraved.

72. ArbeitMachtFrei September 29th, 2007 8:28 pm

    The comparison of the Bush Wars to WWII is, perhaps, more accurate when Bush is viewed in the light of Mussolini, Tojo, or Hitler. Because of the nature of an authoritarian, fascist, psychopathic personality, one cannot appease such people as it will only encourage more aggression. For example, Hitler’s invasion of the Rhineland, Bush’s response to Saddam’s ovatures to go into exile, etc. In each case, conciliation and compromise only fueled the psychopath’s contempt for weakness and hastened war. Bush: “We are STRONG.”

    If one read’s the “Mask of Sanity” (recommended by Kurt Vonnegut. A copy can be downloaded free online since it’s out of print), it becomes blatently obvious that Bush has a psychopathic personality—no conscience, no compassion. When I see Bush making his profunctory rounds to see the crippled soldiers at Bethesda Naval Hospital, I’m reminded of images of Hitler in the final days of the war pinning medals onto 10 year old German kids literally pushed in front of Stalin’s tanks.

73. nickhart September 29th, 2007 8:33 pm

    WWII was not “the good war” and it doesn’t serve anyone’s interests (except the war makers) to continue to support that myth.

    FDR committed numerous war crimes. He turned back boat loads of Jewish refugees. He murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians with the bombing of Dresden and the firebombing of Tokyo. He imprisoned 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry in concentration camps. There is considerable evidence that FDR provoked Japan into attacking Pearl Harbor–and that his administration had advance knowledge of the attack but did nothing in order to use it as a provocation to join the war (which at the time a majority of Americans opposed). And of course, his successor Harry Truman nuked two cities full of civilians.

    WWII was not about fighting fascism–it was the world’s imperial powers duking it out in order to re-divide the globe for control of resources and markets. The result of WWII was the decades-long “cold war” which killed millions more innocent people (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Latin America, the Middle East and countless other places).

74. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 8:36 pm

    GYPTIAN, you are correct, your reading comprehension may be flawed. I never glorified Americans for actions in World War Two, I said we were forced into it and we did good, all of us in general. I don’t believe there is ANY GLORY in any war, or a bar brawl for that matter. I’m a disabled vet who can hardly walk and lost an eye.

    I am delighted to know you believe my assessment of the current war is FAIRLY accurate, since I first stated here it was an unjust, disaster and again a criminal act. I could amplify that, but believe that pretty much sums up my opinion of the war.

    On the Marshall plan argument, I stand by my beliefs on the issue. If you also, like others, have or had a better solution for war torn Europe, spit it out. This still is a free country, it is very close to not being free so you may wish to hurry it up. I do not argue what Preston Bush and buddies attempted to do to Roosevelt, they were attempting a military coup. Roosevelt was one who warned us, that big business coudl be very dangerous and he was correct. I do believe Roosevelt wanted us to join in the Second World War, but for good reasons. He believed that if we didn’t get involved, Germany could win in Europe, Japan in the Far East and we’d be next. ___ He was correct to believe that and we will never know otherwise. So much from this diarhhea filled harmful blogger. Any who wish to ignore my bull shit, may use their mouse and scrool right on by. We wouldn’t want to cause any serious damage to any of the ones who might not be real bright, as GUPTIAN has so eloquently suggested.

75. dougrambo September 29th, 2007 8:44 pm

    Americans are still awesome. Actually better in some ways then our fathers generation. At least blacks don’t have to sleep in their own barracks and get to eat with the other soldiers. Blacks aren’t hung from trees for looking at a white woman,etc. We are more awesome then we used to be. ITS OUR LEADERS THAT SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

76. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 8:59 pm

    You are correct DOUGRAMBO, about the blacks or Arfican Americans. We still have a lot to do in that regard, LOTS. Read the article posted right above here about racism in medicare. Then remember how the blacks were treated in the Gulf region after Katrina and are still being treated like forth class citizwns, it is both shamful and criminal. But I agree with you, it is primarily our leaders. “Where Have All The Leaders Gone”, by Lee Iacocca is great reading, many of his opinions are in direct alignment with many of the readers of Common Dreams. Not all, most of his opinions. But due to Bush and his war in Iraq, we are now a long way from being a great nation.

77. hp September 29th, 2007 9:03 pm

    “If any asks why we died, tell them that our fathers lied.”
    Kipling

    “We destroyed the finest people in Europe. We fought on the wrong side.”
    Patton

    “Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what’s for lunch.”
    Ben Franklin

78. claudius September 29th, 2007 9:06 pm

    hp,

    Great quotes! Thanks.

79. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 9:11 pm

    Patton was a superb strategist, but he was also a egotistical, prima Donna and a SOB who at times ran his mouth far too much and was possibly insane.

    “He that is dedicate to war, hath no self love”.

    ~~Shakespeare~~

80. RichM September 29th, 2007 9:16 pm

    purvis ames very accurately notes, (8:27 pm) “A film glorifying war at this particular moment made by a jerk-off financed by GM and GE is nothing short of a piece of Leni Riefenstahl style Nazi propaganda.”

    This is exactly right. Ken Burns was interviewed by Jon Stewart Thursday night on “The Daily Show.” Stewart asked him whether he’d made “The War” to convey any particular political message. Burns immediately said No, his documentary was completely “non-political.”

    How could anyone say such a thing with a straight face? WWII is the very CORNERSTONE of the entire myth of “America, the Virtuous.” It’s simply not possible to discuss the source of such powerful mythology without being “political.” To deny it’s political, is itself very political. // To discuss WWII in conformity with standard American mythology, amounts to singing stirring paeans to “America, the glorious beacon of democracy.” And to deviate from this script in any way is to invite trouble — lots of it.

    Note that rightwing lunatics (the type that attacked MoveOn) have not attacked Burns’ documentary. That’s because it stays within the boundaries of standard US mythology. That is, it conforms to the idea that Americans are always the good guys, and whatever we do, is (implicitly) always for pure & noble reasons. Anyone who tried to put a show on TV challenging that myth would not get financed by GE and GM; and not succeed in getting it broadcast. Or if such a show actually made it to broadcast, it would be lambasted by the rightwing loonies (the same type who wouldn’t let the Smithsonian put the Enola Gay on exhibit in 1995, if the exhibit literature made any critical mention of the number of Japanese civilians incinerated in Hiroshima).

    For Burns to come out singing hosannas to the US military, at a time like this, is disgusting & reprehensible. He knows damn well what kind of use this propaganda will be put to. It’s not a detached impartial “academic study” of a bygone historical era. It’s a thinly -disguised way of saying, “America is great, always right and never wrong — and anyone who opposes us, will be crushed by our glorious military might.”

81. gyptian September 29th, 2007 9:20 pm

    KEM … nickhart’s statement above sums it up perfectly ..
    “WWII was not about fighting fascism–it was the world’s imperial powers duking it out in order to re-divide the globe for control of resources and markets”

    As for your inane line — “we were forced into it and we did good” — just does not make any sense … the current day neo-cons could very well say “we did good” in Iraq as we now control Iraq and plan to stay there till the oil runs out. The murderous U.S. Marines can say “we did good” when they return triumphantly from another fresh slaughter (fallujah anyone??). Blackwater mercenaries have accomplished their goals and have definitely “done good” by boosting Blackwater profits over the horizon.

    This hypothetical bullshit about ‘what would you do’ if you were there then is meaningless because there is not a lot i could do these last 6 friggin years besides protest on the streets and scream till you are hoarse. Again, if American economic ineterests were not threatened America would not have gone to war in Europe. This ‘moral war’ argument was dredged up to convince the rest of population and thats it. Nothing really changes.

82. annemarie j September 29th, 2007 9:25 pm

    Ken Burns is a propagandist. Bob Cesca’s essay just another load of jingoistic tripe.

    There never was and never will be a “great war”. All wars are for (others) resources. No exceptions.

    The Marshall Plan is as Rich M describes it. And, no thanks, the last thing we need is more propaganda per a film about the Marshall Plan, as one person suggests!

    There is no such this as a “pacifist nation”. There are pacifist individuals in every country, but I’ve yet to hear of a pacifist nation. If there exists one, please notify me immediately, as we’ll be packing and moving there tout de suite!

    Those waxing nostaligic about “those were the days” (in America) must be White Folks. Those days were definitely not good ole’ days for others. Jim Crow, segregation, lynchings, apartheid ring any bells?

    Americans didn’t (care to) help the approximately 6 million Jews who were being sent to concentration camps, neither did they help the approximately 5 million other civilians who died there. btw, I’ve seen scores of movies, books, plays, and documentaries about the murdered Jews, NONE about the 5 million others. I wonder why? Seems we’re all supposed to “never forget” about the Jews and never remember about the others?

    Also, wasn’t the American armed forces still segregated during WWII? Yeah, those were the days! Racist much?

    Still, Kem Patrick states that he was “proud to be American” then? Wow!

    Sacrificing by recycling or consuming less material goods — whilst admirable and something that should always be practiced, not only during war time — is nothing compared to the sacrifices of those who were/are real victims of war, meaning those on or near the battlefields, and particularly civilians.

    Soldiers are terrorists, as someone said earlier. Without soldiers you can’t have a war. I don’t support any soldiers anywhere, and never will. I support war resisters, war detractors, peace makers and pacifists.

    Those who say they were “proud to be American” back in the day ought to get over their nationalities, and re-cognize their real status as world citizens. Likewise for all others.

    Patriotism or nationalism, is just more fanatic, exceptional, exclusive (tribal) ism if you ask me. pfft!

    Debating all of this endlessly serves no one. Unless we all truthfully and wholistically reflect upon the ultimate lessons of war and dedicate ourselves and our lives to peace building and peace keeping.

    I would like to thank some people for their especially thoughtful and insightful comments:

    RichM, Seedeevee, Ken Hausle, Dichterfreund, Lillulu, Gyptian, Holymoly, Safiyyah, Curmudgeon, Galen, Iyamwutiam, Ramsay Mameesh, jbs, Galen (in no particular order).

    Peace… if we can make it!

    btw Lillulu,
    you’re correct about the Canadian public (tax payer supported) health care system, it works just fine, though some are trying their best to sabotage/dismantle it and in recent years have managed to downgrade it. They of whom I speak call themselves Conservatives or Reform(ers). Won’t say what I call them

83. rtdrury September 29th, 2007 9:33 pm

    Everything indicates that “The War” is propaganda intended to milk WWII to help indoctrinate yet another generation of Americans to support current/future wars of capitalist aggression.

    There is an agenda behind everything. You simply have to discover if it’s the people’s agenda or the beast’s agenda, and act accordingly.

84. iammyself September 29th, 2007 9:43 pm

    Uh oh. Don’t look now, folks, but the cheerleaders with the pom-pons are here to lead us in a chorus of “These are a few of my favorite things.”

    Take your rose-colored glasses off, girls, and give it a rest, won’t you?

85. mookie September 29th, 2007 9:47 pm

    annemarie j — “Still, Kem Patrick states that he was “proud to be American” then? Wow!”
    I would have been proud to be an American then. At least, there were some things to be proud about then. Now, I’m ashamed of my government, not ashamed to be an American.

    – “Patriotism or nationalism, is just more fanatic, exceptional, exclusive (tribal) ism if you ask me. pfft!”
    Maybe to some extent, but what’s the alternative? One world government? No thanks, it’s bad enough now as it is. Patriotism is not a bad thing, either. What would you suggest, annemarie j? Just open up the borders and invite communist/capitalist China in? How about wacko Russia or every Jihad nut job out there? Or would you prefer it if the European Union came in and took over.

    Because I loathe my president, it does not therefore go to follow that I am not patriotic. I am as patriotic to my country as a person can be. Dissent Is patriotic. It’s a civic duty.

86. mookie September 29th, 2007 9:51 pm

    Daniel David, I’ll support my butt, before I support Hillary Clinton.

87. gyptian September 29th, 2007 9:56 pm

    ANNEMARIE —”I’ve seen scores of movies, books, plays, and documentaries about the murdered Jews, NONE about the 5 million others”

    Finally !! 2 million Gypsies and a million Slavs as well as others were murdered along with the Jews. Ofcourse the marginalised and politically naive Gypsies will never be able to get their own country and turn around and oppress others !!

    As for DOUGRAMBO , correct me if im wrong but –
    “We are more awesome then we used to be.”

    Are you saying we USED to be awesome when we were hanging Black people from trees but we stopped doing it now, so ‘We are more awesome then we used to be’ ?! … Either the standards we Americans set for ourselves needs to be seriously revisited or im having ‘reading comprehension’ issues again.

88. KEM PATRICK September 29th, 2007 10:01 pm

    Well well, I do love how some of you will take a sentence or phrase from a blog and hammer the writer’s opinions. I fail to see why any, would compare the Second World War with the war Bush started with Iraq. I was proud to be an american before WW11.

    Was I proud to be an American durng the Second World War? Yes, I sure was and we the people were forced into it. The way some of you write, Roosevelt somehow with GE, Ford and others, conspired with Hitler or Tojo to get us into it, so we could whip their asses and make a fortune. That is the stupidest logic I can think of. If you are correct, when Japan did attack us, Roosevelt should have let it pass, or surrendered to Japan and or Germany, when they both declared war with us.

    Perhaps I am full of shit and you are all correct. But I don’t have enough of your combined “wisdom” to agree as yet. I will ask you two questions, and if you can answer them honestly, please do.

    First, what should Roosevelt have done about Japan attacking us, essentially declaring war on the citizens of the United States.

    Secondly, What would you have done better than the Marshall plan, which the Europeans loved, to help re-build Europe after the war ended.

    I have been accused of being a person who may harm other bloggers by my written opinions, which differ from yours. You obviously have not read my blogs, where I state that I believe the war with Iraq is a criminal act and has caused us to be classified by most of the world’s citizens, as war mongering thieving thugs. I’m ashamed of my country now sinc Bush started his damn war. I also have been accused of being, in so many words. an idiot and several other nasty things. I do not see any thing wrong with eing proud of being wahtever they are, if they aren’t crimnals or thieves or souless people. I so also think that some of you are not very decent humans, if you believe all military people are war mongering killers etc. We were not all like the Blackwater thugs nor are all service people today. If I were in the military today, I would refuse to serve in Iraq. And I do wish that any who are in the group I have been refering to, would answer those two questions.

89. greengal September 29th, 2007 10:08 pm

    Nickhart is right. FDR wanted to join WWII to stop Hitler from getting control of the oil fields in Romania and Persia and not for any altruistic or human rights reasons. FDR didn’t give a damn about the concentration camps. It was the GIs that went out of their way to liberate them. Didn’t Standard Oil end up with that booty via the Shah’s cooperation? And I’ve read somewhere that even Vietnam was about Exxon wanting to control Vietnam’s offshore oil and not really about communism.

90. gyptian September 29th, 2007 10:13 pm

    Relax KEM … this isnt about you. You clearly have an opinion and stated it and a lot of us disagree with it. I think the Capitalist U.S.A. did a splendid job with the Marshall Plan by making Europe an American outpost that further propogates the capitalist class. And that is precisely the problem and to discuss why its a problem i need a drink and a shitload of time on my hand to explain, which i havent got, so …

91. Io Q. Lellity September 29th, 2007 10:24 pm

    Do not direct your military-instilled emotional nationalist pride at me, Kem; you are no more of an american citizen than I am. “Great” is a subjective term, but objectively, there is no era of history where this country wasn’t engaged in things such as; imperialism, colonialism, genocide, slavery, racism, sexism, homophobia, religous fundamentalism, capitalism, globalization, corporate crimewaves, and serial-killer wars. “Better than some other places” is not good enough for the billions of people who were victimized, killed, and had their lives ruined in the process (nor is it good enough for this website!). So keep your words away from my name, oh distinguished teacher of history.

    If I was alive during world war II, I would not have been proud; I would have been sad for all the dead; all the dead germans, jews, soviets, japenese, americans, english, gypsies; for all of the dead humans, and disgusted with the ways they ALL killed each other.

92. BillB September 29th, 2007 10:48 pm

    Sorry but I had trouble gettng past the first part, WW2 never happened it was war from 1914 to 1945 just took a coffee break is all. The second part was never about the killing or freeing the Jewish people ( in fact USA refused to take in many Jewish people ), the second part was never about Hitler going into Poland. If USA had to get into it then why wait until 1917 when it began in 1914 ? part 2 began in 1939 but USA joined in Dec 1941. It was all about getting jobs. Also General Motors made tanks for both sides in part 2. Hitler had a banker friend named Prescott Bush, Dubya’s granfather.
    War is only about making some rich fuckers richer.

93. montemerrick September 29th, 2007 10:52 pm

    america awesome? - just ask the native americans. just ask the west africans. just ask mexico.

94. mookie September 29th, 2007 11:04 pm

    KEM PATRICK — calling — KEM PATRICK! I agree with you. I would have been proud to be an American then, had I been around then.

    That doesn’t mean that I would have supported Roosevelt in all that he did. He was a dictator. I still would have supported his decision to go into the war, though. What choice did we have at that point, and lucky for you Euro-centric bastards that we did.

    For all America bashers, previous and current, and especially those that praise the EU while smearing America all over the road, fuck you. If you fuck with my country, I’ll defend it. That goes for any country.

    And no, I do not support the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.

95. seedeevee September 29th, 2007 11:05 pm

    KEM PATRICK
    “Japan was a closed nation at that time and refused to trade with almost everyone”

    “he refused to leave the Japanese port unless he was heard, and he did threaten to bombard the city”

    Do I really need to respond to those statements? What part of “invasion” does not apply? Maybe you should get a refresher on “gunboat diplomacy”.

96. witness September 29th, 2007 11:17 pm

    Worthy sacrif