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TechnoratiGaza Carnage Sets West Bank Aflame
RAMALLAH, West Bank - Anger, shock and revulsion at the continuing carnage in Gaza has ignited spontaneous demonstrations and riots across the West Bank and Israel, sparking concerns of a possible third Palestinian uprising or Intifada.
![[A Palestinian girl is carried into Shifa hospital in Gaza City following the strikes. (Hatem Moussa/AP)]](http://www.commondreams.org/files/article_images/Gaza1228_0.jpg "Gaza1228.jpg")
More
than 300 Palestinians were killed and at least 900 wounded following an
intensive Israeli air bombing campaign over the Gaza strip through the
weekend.
This followed a barrage of rockets fired by Palestinian fighters at Israeli towns and cities bordering the coastal territory in the last few weeks which caused some damage but no casualties.
Hamas leader-in-exile, Damascus-based Khaled Meshaal, has called on Palestinians to rise up against Israel. The Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank called for a three-day strike in sympathy with Gaza's plight.
Following Israel's aerial assault, one Israeli was killed and several wounded in retaliatory rocket fire from Gaza Saturday afternoon. This was Israel's first fatality in many months.
The first Palestinian Intifada broke out in December of 1987 when Palestinian refugees from a camp in the north of Gaza clashed with Israel soldiers following the death of several Palestinians after an Israeli settler's car plowed into their vehicle.
The Palestinians claimed the victims were deliberately mowed into, while the Israelis said it was the result of a traffic accident.
Following the initial clash, rioting and protests spread spontaneously to all of Gaza and the West Bank, leading to a popular uprising which lasted for several years. This followed years of Palestinian resentment and bitterness towards a brutal Israeli occupation.
Israeli-Arabs, descendants of the Palestinians, clashed Saturday with Israeli police throughout Israel.
In the Bedouin village of Rahat in the Negev desert, around 400 residents protested the attacks, while mosques throughout the town broadcast prayers of mourning. Many Bedouins, descendants of a nomadic tribe, join the Israeli army, where they are valued for their tracking skills. They are regarded as traitors by fellow Palestinians.
Several hundred left-wing Israelis marched through the streets of Tel Aviv towards the Israeli defense ministry headquarters chanting "No to war, yes to peace".
The left-wing protesters carried signs saying "Israel's government is committing war crimes", "Negotiation instead of slaughter", and "Lift the siege from Gaza".
Several Israeli protesters were arrested. Matan Kaminer an Israeli student who took part in the protest told the Israeli daily Haaretz that "no one can tell us that slaughtering the citizens of Gaza is meant to protect the citizens of Sderot and Ashkelon (two Israeli towns bordering the Gaza strip)."
An Israeli police officer was deliberately run over by a Palestinian in East Jerusalem as groups of Palestinian youths clashed with police in the city, stoning them and setting dumpsters on fire.
Palestinian protesters from West Bank towns and refugee camps took to the streets and marched on Israeli checkpoints and Israeli settlements. Many were injured by rubber bullets -- marble-sized metal balls covered in half a millimeter of rubber -- and tear gas shot by Israeli Defense Force (IDF) soldiers.
In Ramallah hundreds of protesters from the various Palestinian factions waved banners and flags, and decried the Gaza slaughter. They called for unity and for Gaza's Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh and West Bank Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas to bury their differences and put the Palestinian cause above their personal politics.
Many in the crowd waved Fatah flags, associated with Abbas and the PA, showing clearly their empathy with fellow Palestinians despite the political divide between the two Palestinian territories.
IPS joined the demonstration as it marched around Ramallah city. In the crowd were people from all sections of Palestinian society. Elegantly turned out middle-aged women from Ramallah's Christian minority marched side by side with tough young men from the surrounding refugee camps.
Grandmothers, journalists, factional leaders, and mothers with toddlers walked linking arms with a scattering of international sympathizers based in the cosmopolitan central West Bank city. Many countries have representative offices to the PA in Ramallah.
This was one of the largest demonstrations that Ramallah witnessed in the last few years of conflict.
"I couldn't just sit at home. I felt overwhelming anger at the situation in Gaza and I needed to show my solidarity," Munther, a young computer programmer from the Palestinian Legislative Council who voted for Abbas in the last election told IPS.
As the crowd circled the city center, the Palestinian police looked on quietly and stood back. But when the demonstrators marched on the Muqata, the government headquarters of the PA where Abbas was in his office, the mood of the Palestinian security forces changed.
On approaching the Muqata's entrance the crowd was met by Palestinian soldiers who took up positions and held their weapons at the ready. But the Shebab, or youth in Arabic, decided to head towards the nearby Israeli military checkpoint of Beit El.
While the more cautious in the crowd stood back, the young men headed towards waiting Israeli military jeeps and tanks and started to sling stones at them, and set tyres alight to block the road.
The Israelis responded with tear gas and rubber bullets, injuring a number of youngsters who were rushed to nearby hospitals in Palestinian ambulances.
This IPS correspondent helped two youths injured by rubber bullets to hospital. They were shot as they stoned the soldiers.
As dozens of Palestinian riot police arrived on the scene to disperse the protesters, one of them remarked that the police arrival had been coordinated with their Israeli colleagues on the other side of the checkpoint.
"They are nothing but quislings and a militia of the Israelis. Hundreds of Palestinians were killed in Gaza, and who do they aim their weapons at? Not the Israelis but us, their brethren protesting the slaughter," said one of the youths.
"There will be more protests tomorrow and I will be back," he added, as he stepped out of the taxi and limped towards the emergency room.
309 Comments so far
Show AllThe Forever War rages on. May they burn each other up before they burn the world up.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
Why do we sit here to argue and complain, spew more hate, as if the world needs any more of this? How are we then any different, adding to the piles of hate? Are we not doing what the war mongers want us to do: fight?
Why not join our forced together, as commondreamers, take care of one another, speak without prejudice or hate or the attempt to silence? Why not set an example here, be the change?
I would really love that!!! How about you?
joysong:I think you make your point.
Hi, NYCartist! (Thanks for writing!)
No, they make my point, but only sort of. This conversation does have a bit of different feel. These two really seem to want to get at something. Can you feel it? They still bicker, but it is clearly from bitterness; they have lost much.
I understand it too. Yesterday I read people write: Jews are evil. They should die. It was so painful. I wrote back: I am your child's Jewish teacher who watched out for him/her, your neighbor who drags in your lost garbage can, the one who walks your grandmother to her car, etc...
My arms hurt from writing so much, reaching out to so many. All I want to do is grab hands of all these people.
I have to hope that these two were affected by the post, tryed a little harder at understanding and a little less at meanness and finger pointing. I feel that they did.
I called my cousin in Tel Aviv yesterday to check on him, gentle soul that he is. He was sad and frustrated. There is no end. He dislikes it all and chooses to spend time in kindness to all people best he can.
What I wish people would know is how peaceful Israelis and Palestinians are!!! When I was in Israel in summer 2006 (Lebanon and Israeli conflict), a cab driver and I rode the streets together, softly relating, about how much the weather made us want to go to the sea, or something...
How sweet, a Jew and a Palestinian passing the day in conversation, one caring for the other, me with smiles and soft words, him with advice on how to travel...all the while missiles and bombs passing between countries!
People please! Take care of each other better! Listen best you can and keep your heart open! If you are here, writing, I believe that is what you want!!!
If people don't speak out in a confrontational and direct way who will stop the Israelis bullies from killing more innocents?
Zionists would like nothing better than for us to coo soft songs to one another while they rain bombs down on the vast prison camp that is the Gaza strip. I for one won't stand for it!
How does that help the suffering people of Gaza EXACTLY? Yes lets just be happy and sing little happy songs together while people are being slaughtered, good stuff.
Thanks for responding, Hootowl! Please permit me to clarify what it is I am saying and not saying. I am not saying that we sit idly by. What I am saying is that the tone here bears little difference from the tone in the middle east, where people do not listen to eachother well, nor have a discussion to foster understanding and cooperation. That is simply what I am suggesting here. For us to treat one another well, even those who disagree with us, so we can demonstrate how its done. Perhaps when we do this, we can also figure out what we - collectively - can do.
Sometimes people are just wrong and are being cold hearted shills for brutal massacres to try to pretend that their position is equally valid is a non starter it is the Fox news "fair and balanced" tactic and I for one am having none of it. Sometimes the most ethical course of action is to FIGHT on behalf of the oppressed against bullies. Would you have suggested in 1940 that we have "discussion to foster understanding and cooperation" with the Nazis? There comes a time for confrontation and Israel has LONG passed that point in it's slaughter of thousand of Palestinians and intransigent holding of land that doesn't belong to them under international law, as has the U.S. of course for it's far larger crimes in Iraq which I have protested over and over again.
So its okay for the Palestinians to fight back but it's not okay for Israel to fight back...Or are you trying to deny that Hamas has made acts of aggression? Both sides are guilty so by your logic we should just let them fight it out...hmmm thats the way to peace....
No! By my logic Israel should stop slaughtering people, ramming boats full of human rights activists, and keeping people in prison camp like conditions, from what I can see Zionists learned exactly ZERO from what caused the Holocaust, and in a race to see if they themselves can be as cold, cruel and ruthless as Nazis themselves, fuck that completely, yes I am swearing, deal!
Do your mommy and daddy know their trust fund money is going towards you typing on internet forums all day in defense of war crimes? They sure must be proud, sigh!
It's Christmas break, regrettably i won't be able to remain as frequent a guest here once classes start back up...i can already tell your gonna miss me.
You again have no mention of Hamas's rocket attacks...it seems that you are unable to say they are criminal and need to stop...sad.
The boat story is fresh of the pages so to speak so i can't comment..i like to wait for the facts to come out before i start convicting people...I will say i've scene the images and yes the boat was rammed but how was it rammed? Did the Israeli's just plow into it or did they take a blocking pattern to the boat and the boats then collided when neither side turned?
The lesson Israel gained from the Holocaust is that you when someone starts targeting you with hate speech, questions whether or not you should even be allowed to exist, builds up a ever increasing stock pile of weapons, a growing number of neighboring nations with hostile intents, and to top it off an ever increasing amount of hate crimes targeting Jews is on the rise throughout Europe..FYI the chief of police in a German town was nearly stabbed to death by a neo-nazi last week...Hate is circling the world.
Israel is acting defensively, heavy handed yes, but defensively no the less.
I like how you still imply that only Israel is guilty of war crimes...
Slaughtering in essence a giant prison camp full of lightly armed people isn't fighting back it's a massacre, and what's more I think you know that steel. It's that sort of level of disingenuous response that causes people doubt Zionists veracity. Were the Nazis fighting back when they put down the Warsaw ghetto rebellion?
The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto weren't attacking the German citizens outside the walls but rather targeting the German soldiers holding them prisoner...Like i said Hamas really needs a PR adviser....
Your reference is good otherwise, The Palestinians are boxed into a prison but why isn't Hamas attacking the Egyptians as well? Egypt has sealed it's border and built a wall just like Israel has...
PLEASE ANSWER THAT FOR ME...
I am not a Hamas rep I am a hard leftist caucasian dude in the dying industrial midwest who is sick of Zionist crimes, environmental destruction, bankster fraud, and corporate malfeasance.
I didn't ask about your personal life i asked why you don't rant against Egypt as well as Israel? The prison of Palestine has two wardens..Egypt and Israel.
I don't care what your skin color is. The midwest is in a sad state but i'm sorry to say the mills aren't coming back...
Yeah because the capitalist usury "investment income" class offshored our josb to the third world where they could pay workers pennies and an hour and mismanaged the plants into the ground to boot. Yes I just love the the private and political leadership of the empire, aren't they grand?
And yes I know you'd like Israel to be able to dodge taking responsibility for the problems IT creates by off shoring it onto Egypt like the auto industry has our jobs, but guess what the world isn't going to let you get away with that.
It's called Darwinism. Just like the Horse and Buggy industry went to the guillotine the mills are being led away.
So Israel also controls the Egyptian government...interesting.
I didn't say Israel controls Egypt's government that is a SEVERE twisting of my words, what I am saying is the rest of the world wants Israel to take responsibility for the problems Israel itself has created. No pawning off problems on others, not happening.
If you your country wants to play Dawinian games really it's going to get hurt itself at some point, that is what happen to bullies, they get their ass kicked by a bigger bully sooner or later.
Or we could behave like civilized people and not be beasts and try to transcend baser violent impulses of domination, your choice, hint the last time social Darwinism held sway it didn't come out too well for Jewish people, did it?
The Jews didn't have the biggest kid on the block at their side then either....
Darwinism is definitely risk but the greatest gains are only made when risk is taken. Capitalism isn't perfect but it is the best economic theory know.
You speak of transcending violence but you have also defended Hamas's violence...? Well which is it are you for violence or are you against it? You've expressed a desire to see Israel be destroyed but now you are trying to sing Qumbya-i might be spelling that one wrong.
I would prefer israel stop oppressing Palestinians and stealing their land so a violent counter response won't happen as is a natural response from a colonized people like the Palestinians. But seeing Israel's corrupt leaderships record in that regard I am not holding my breath. The onus for setting the table for peaceful conditions falls on the aggressor and occupier Israel.
P.S. Raw unregulated dog eat dog capitalism worked real well for AIG with it's credit default swaps didn't it? Even ultra capitalist apologist Alan Greenspan admitted there is a "flaw in the model" maybe you didn't get the memo? Keynesiasm is making a comeback but maybe your professors haven't written that new syllabus yet, so again you missed the memo, smirk.
Your statement is true but for a slight bit,
The aggressor is Hamas while the occupier is Israel. Nothing will change until both sides act in unison. For Israel cannot evacuate, forcefully at that, the settlement while rockets rain down on them...be reasonable. Likewise aggression will not end until the occupation is over. Catch-22 anyone? My argument is that Hamas could wage their fight in a civilized manner i.e. stop targeting only civilians. Do know how quickly Israel would have to evacuated the settlements if Hamas would stop killing civilians which is what gives Israel the excuse, legal excuse that is, to drop 100 tons of bombs on Gaza!?
I never said unregulated capitalism is the way. Regulation is a necessity. We don't want to be like Russia...look how bad they are!
I was always a fan of the Chicago School of Economics.
Japan tried the Keynesian approach and they lost an entire decade b/c of it...
BTW The Chicago school is a disaster both domestically here in the U.S. as even Freidman accolade Greenspan is admitting, and on the foreign policy front. Are you aware that Pincohet's Chile which was in essence one giant Chicago School experiment is setting up a society. I suggest you read Naomi Klein's "Disaster Capitalism" and John Perkins "Economic Hitmen" and then get back to me about how wonderful Chicago school globalism has been for the world other than for the upper 5% of people in Japan, Europe and the U.S.
Yes having more Nobel and John B Clark prize winners than any other school is a huge failure.
Mind you that it was Chicago that recognized the economic theory of regulation, that challenged the Washington Consensus for being an incomplete theory, and gave us monetarism.
Your saying globalism is bad? You know that Starbucks has done more for poor Latin American farmers than all the aid groups have done combined, you know that globalism is just the exchange of goods but also the exchange of ideas and technology, that unfair and inefficient subsidies are being removed, the UN itself is a product of globalization...progress is a product of globalization. It is far from perfect but it is moving us in the right direction.
You act like a few rockets from Hamas are going to kill all your people which is a lie, I am quite certain more people die in traffic accidents in an average week in Israel than have killed in 5 years by Hamas's rockets. Meanwhile Israel IS slaughtering staggering numbers of people, do you really think 1 Israelis life is worth 100 Palestinian lives? What kind of sick minded bigotry is that? How can I take you seriously when you obviously have no regard for lives of long suffering Palestinian people?
You will find in this world when you get older that you get taken about as seriously as you take people, if you feel free to disregard the value of Palestinian lives don't be surprised if you are in turn treated with disdain and your opinion isn't valued.
Your simplistic polarized languaging of reality, forces your Zionist thinking into desperate fear embezzled rages and criminal actions.
Shameful BS is this : "aggressor is Hamas while the occupier is Israel."
[___ CHOSE __ B E T T E R ___]
Namaste
The definition of aggressor is the party that starts the conflict...which side launched the first missile last week?
Your ability to deny the truth is very unsettling...traditionally a person looks for facts to support their belief but you seem to be able to even ignore empirical fact in the defense of your opinions...that is interesting
Tell me what facts i've stated that are false.
Perhaps because Israel didn't begin the "occupation" last week ( more like 2600 weeks ago ).
You compare apples and oranges, as if they were the same fruit.
Your facts do not match in type or character -- so your boast of objective truthful comparison sinks like your sense of morality, and the world's strained patience.
As far as who started the recent conflict, it was the brutal Israeli murder of several Hamas that broke the latest long sustained agreement of 'no rockets' fired peace accord, so it was the Israeli assassins who take that "honor" of being the biggest and most deliberately escalating aggressor ( besides the obvious extreme over reaction this week ).
Namaste
Those Hamas members that were sneaking around the border with explosives? I man who carries a bomb is a fair target. After all a bomb is a weapon you know.....
Again the permissible method to resist occupation is to target the military of the occupying nation it is not permissible to target the civilian population of said nation.
This weeks actions we taken to eliminate the rocket attacks and any future attack will likewise be taken to eliminate any threat to the Israel population...you have to recognize that the Israeli government is to serve and protect the people of Israel first and foremost and all other obligations are second. That is how every nation of the world operates.
Fair enough, Hootowl. I am simply reacting to the way people treat one another here in the comments, trying to aim for a more peaceful way of communicating. When I am done reading comments I am often saddened by the state of the dialogue we are so fortunate to have here.
5 little sisters killed by Israel while in bed ( Gaza)
http://palestinian.ning.com/photo/photo/show?id=1970466%3APhoto%3A36591
israel of course is deeply "sorry":
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=i1NCyAK3rDA
This ongoing conflict has seeming made both sides 'insane' with hatred. It boils like sludge in a sick engine. Israel's retaliation is more than that, it is intended as a punishment, just like it's incursion into Lebanon was. Such an exaggerated response reveals the intention regardless of the spin. If you ask who is terrorizing whom? It looks like Israel is by far the most 'terrible terrorist,' since the supposed provocation pales in comparison to the response, which is not at all measured.
You do not see that you have turned Palestine into a huge concentration camp, complete with walls (What do you expect to happen when you push the already desperate into further desperation?). And it's like shooting fish in a barrel, isn't it? You say it isn't genocide, but if it smells like a duck, quacks like duck...well, you know the rub.
Some food for thought
“ Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. THAT IS NATURAL WE HAVE TAKEN THEIR COUNTRY” –
David Ben Gurion, 1956, quoted by Nahum Goldmann in The Jewish Paradox, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p.99.
.
Go to http://electronicIntifada.net and www.palestinechronicle.com for the most up to date coverage of this.
I also recommend going to http://english.aljazeera.net/ and watching the free news coverage there.
PJD pointed out to me that the Palestinians have their own news service at http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php
Palisraelistine: The one-state solution. !!Shalom/Salaam!!
Being 'God's chosen people' justifies obliterating all those who oppose you!
"There will be no change unless we make change." Ali Abunimah, DemocracyNow, a few minutes ago. www.democracynow.org He also listed Guernica and Warsaw, as had I. (see my comment earlier, below) I agree.
Guernica
Nanking
Warsaw ghetto
Fallujah (by the US)
Gaza (by Israel, using US planes, bombs)
First off, I denounce Israel's temper tantrum against the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel fears being "wiped off the map", but hypocritically it wants to wipe others off the map. Having said that, some of the Arab leaders are being hypocrites. Israel is doing Abbas's dirty work. Abbas wanted Hamas weakened or eliminated even though Abbas pays lip service about the Israeli invasion. Then there's Egypt. Why are the Egyptians shooting at Palestinians (source Huffington Post)? Why is not Egypt opening the border at Gaza for humanitarian reasons? Then there's the price of oil. When Israel invaded, oil shot back up to the pleasure of OPEC. Yes Israel is indeed horrible, but there are also a lot of bad actors who want to do away with Hamas. Also with friends like Abbas and Egypt, Palestinians doesn't need Israel for an enemy.
Why don't we just have the Eugenicists post here as well, explaining why the destruction of Black self-determination in this country since 1619 was to defend the incursive white population? Why don't we have white supremists post on how important it was for the Anglo population to wipe out the American Indian in "self defense", since whites were fulfilling manifest destiny?
Why are we even tolerating these race myths from this Zionist Letto? Why?
Better to debate them and show they are wrong by any standard of ethical decency than suppress them. Suppressed they just go underground and their hate festers even more.
Why is anyone engaging with this idiot Letto?
I hope everyone here remembers that Hamas was democratically elected in the only free and fair election in the Arab middle east ever.
But they were never given a chance. They made perfectly reasonable offers that could have led to peace and a real Palestinian State, but they met silence, then a violent US/Israel sponsored coup by Fatah which now the illegitimate puppet government for the Palestinians.
---USAn---
They were elected buy that doesn't ignore the crimes they have committed. They are sworn to Israel's destruction....You profess a desire for peace and yet you defend an organization that's very purpose is to destroy a UN recognized nation....Your illogical. Hamas is the elected leaders of the Palestinian people however they are still criminals in that they have stated and exercised the belief that suicide bombers attacking coffee shops, mall, and buses are legitimate warfare. Why is it what so few suicide bombers attack the IDF, that would be a legitimate action, but instead they attack unarmed civilians which is never permitted in civilized society.
Hamas's actions are not legitimate warfare, but then legitimate warfare can only be waged by sovereign states, which Palestine is not. Palestinians do have the right of resistance, however they do not have the capability to strike military targets with their rockets, which are unguided. As you point out suicide bombers have hit the IDF, but so few. Since Palestine is not a state, it has no military, and no strict command structure..who knows if the individual bombers pick their own targets?
Palestine is not a state true but it does have elected officials how are recognized as the command structure. I can't really see how you reason that Hamas isn't required to obey international law b/c they are not a nation state...
Hamas has declared war on Israel thus Israel i permitted by int'l law to engage in combat. Israel does not have to limit their response to Hamas until the conflict is ended which will only happen when Hamas is destroyed. The Palestinian people would be wise to help bring about the inevitable sooner rather than later.
Hamas = terrorist organization, not a sovereign government. Terrorism is a diplomatic, intelligence, and law enforcement problem, NOT a military problem. Military action only makes terrorism worse.
When terrorist's start using bombs and missiles the police are no longer equipped to respond and thus the military must regrettably take action.
Indeed Hama's election was certified by the Carter Center which has certified MANY other elections as a neutral observer.
I bet their election was more free than ours are.
You do know that Hamas has been arresting any members of Fatah that hold meetings in Gaza..Yes their elections are so much more fair than ours...The freedom of assembly isn't really that important...Get real.
And you do know our municipal police forces have been arresting peaceful protestors, and terrorizing others before they even do anything, right? Oh, and don't forget the counterterrorism resources directed at anti-death penalty and vegan groups. Get real, we don't have freedom of assembly ourselves.
Not to give a blanket defense of all police actions but i will say most protesters that are arrested are arrested b/c they block roads...also it takes just a few violent actors among the protesters to cause the police to break up the protest. Its sad that a handful of agitators force the police to end what otherwise would have been a perfectly legal and permitted protest. Vegan groups in general are fine but it's the mall minority that take violent actions that give the entire movement a bad name, same goes for environmental groups. I don't know about the anti-death penalty reference you made so i can't commit. I will say you can walk down to the police station and fill out a form and you'll be able to even have a parade to express your opinions-the police will even offer to protect you if need. We do have the right and freedom to assemble so please refrain form lying.
We don't have the freedom of assembly if we're placed on terrorist lists for being a member of peaceful activist groups man. Wake up.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2008/12/02-0
Your freedom of air travel is lost but not the freedom of assembly. You are allowed to have any and all political meetings-as long as they are nonviolent-that you wish in this country. Communist, the KKK, Neo-Nazi's, ect..all have regular meetings in this country. However, the same cannot be said about Gaza for Hamas has banned Fatah from holding any meetings....
Hey, do you remember those images of Hamas police officers executing Fatah members in the street just a year or so ago....Yeah those were innocent police officers that Israel bombed this week....yeah...
"Your freedom of air travel is lost" ah how nice, democracy lite, *NEW* now with 50% less freedom. Wasn't it travel restrictions within the USSR and silencing of dissidents that were two of Reagan's biggest beefs with Soviet Russia?
I wasn't defending the no fly list,it's embarrassing, i was rather correcting your mistake. Your welcome.
I will say this, the concept of a list isn't the problem but the inability of the government to correct its mistake under the Bush Adm is simply shocking.
Like when they said that all agreements made by the previous governments were no longer meaningful? I seem to recall them also reaffirming their dedication to Israeli's destruction...
Yes those are wonderful starting points in a negotiation...
"Like when they said that all agreements made by the previous governments were no longer meaningful?"
Didn't Bush do that too, pulling out of treaties left and right? He must've been their inspiration.
Kyoto was never ratified by the US Congress and the Ballistic Missile treaty that prohibited a missile defense system isn't something you want to defend...Unless your for nuclear weapons and the MAD philosophy.
"he Ballistic Missile treaty that prohibited a missile defense system isn't something you want to defend"
Don't speak for me STEAL the ballistic missile treaty IS something I'd like to defend, hint missile defense doesn't work and is easily defeated by decoys as simple as children's mylar balloons. Google MIT ballon missile defense steel, I'm not doing your homework for your.
I know it doesn't work today and it won't work for at least a decade but the technology will one day be viable.
You agree with the idea of world peace being based on Mutual Assured Destruction?
That isn't peace...thats a world where everybody points a gun at everybody else...you do know that b/c of a short circuit in a Russian computer we almost had nuclear war a couple decades ago...The Russian soldier who realized that it wasn't a US attack but rather a computer glitch was noted rewarded for his actions but rather demoted b/c he didn't follow procedure...He lost his job b/c he didn't start a nuclear holocaust...
Why are you defending that?
I agree with the idea of world peace based on nuclear disarmament starting with the big boys first, the U.S., Russia, and Israel. Of course first Israel would have to declare it's secret WMDs first, right? Funny how Israel gets to violate U.N. sanctions left and right and have HUNDREDS of undeclared nuclear weapons without a peep from the outside world while MUCH smaller violations of international protocol lead to Iraq being invaded.
Just another day in the empire, right?
You know being an empire does have its perks...Might Makes Right..isn't that how it goes?
Now to be serious, we know Israel has nukes-we gave it to them. Its not hundreds but rather a hundred plus or minus a few. Why don't you ask the int'l atomic federation to pass a motion on Israel's nukes? Maybe the reason the world powers ignore the fact that Israel has nukes is b/c Israel is a responsible nation that won't go around nuking other nations...unlike certain Arab regimes. What really hurt Iraq is the fact that they had used WMD's in the past. Doing away with nukes is a good idea to be sure..i think once people realize that they are useless and expensive to have around they will be gone...a working missile defense shield will help us get there...after all why have nukes if you can't hit anybody with them?
Why I would trust a nation that holds the U.N. in contempt and holds territory outside it's legal borders I haven't a clue, you are a more trusting soul than me my friend. Of course in the upside down world of neo-con shills Iraq not having WMDs equals war, and Israel having at least a hundred WMDs equals shhh of this we don't speak.
"Timetable of estimates of the Israeli nuclear arsenal
Nuclear weapons
History of nuclear weapons
Nuclear warfare
Nuclear arms race
Nuclear weapon design
Nuclear testing
Effects of nuclear explosions
Delivery systems
Nuclear espionage
Proliferation / Arsenals
Nuclear-armed states
US · Russia · UK · France
PR China · India · Israel
Pakistan · North Korea
(South Africa)
This box: view • talk • edit
The State of Israel has never made public any details or confirmations of its nuclear capability or arsenal. The following is a history of estimates by many different reputable sources on the size and strength of Israel's nuclear arsenal.
1967 (Six Day War)- 2 bombs[37]; 13 bombs[38]
1969- 5-6 bombs of 19 kilotons yield each[39]
1973 (Yom Kippur War)- 13 bombs[40]; 20 nuclear missiles plus developed a suitcase bomb[41]
1974- 3 capable artillery battalions each with 12 175 mm tubes and a total of 108 warheads[42]; 10 bombs[43]
1976- 10-20 nuclear weapons[44]
1980- 200 bombs[45]
1984- 12-31 atomic bombs[46]; 31 plutonium bombs and 10 uranium bombs[47]
1985- at least 100 nuclear bombs[48]
1986- 100 to 200 fission bombs and a number of fusion bombs[49]
1991- 50-60 to 200-300[50]
1992- more than 200 bombs[51]
1994- 64-112 bombs (5 kg/warhead)[52]; 50 nuclear tipped Jericho missiles, 200 total[53]
1995- 66-116 bombs (at 5 kg/warhead)[54]; 70-80 bombs[55]; "A complete Repertoire" (neutron bombs, nuclear mines, suitcase bombs, submarine borne)[56]
1996- 60-80 plutonium weapons, maybe more than 100 assembled, ER variants (neutron bombs), varitable yields[57]
1997- More than 400 deliverable thermonuclear and nuclear weapons[58]
2002– Between 75 and 200 weapons[59]
The figure dropped between 1997 and 2002 due to satellite photographs showing the power of the reactor had not increased since the 1970s."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Why a nation know to have committed serial crimes against humanity is allowed a secret cache of nuclear wepons I haven't a clue. :(
Also interesting is the very small amount of outrage of even coverage of Israel's spying on the U.S. and stealing our military secrets:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/977243.html
Every nation is active in spying on its neighbors, enemies, and allies. WE ALL SPY. The British spied on the US during WW II! Israel has sworn that after the Pollard incident they will no longer seek to spy on the US. They may they may not i don't care. We all Spy. The US people don't mind that Israel has nukes in fact we want them to have nukes. Israel has had nukes for decades and they havent used them yet...if they were gonna they would have in '67.
Your opinion of Israel and your inability to trust them really has no bearing for you will never be a policy maker...
"The US people don't mind that Israel has nukes in fact we want them to have nukes."
Speak for yourself ONLY, I certainly don't want serial human rights abuser Israel as documented by the U.N, Amnesty International, The Carter Center, etc, near any kind of high powered weapons. In fact I'd encourage people to boycott as many Israelis products as possible, and write your reps encouraging them to cut off Israel's 6 billion dollars per year, and supplying ANY weapons or spare parts to Israel's grossly unethical military that has no sense of proportional response at all.
And no I don't want Israel spying on me, nor do I want the U.S. government spying on American citizens, just say no to government spooks both of the CIA and COINTELPRO domestic variety.
From the diary of Daily Kos member, Chilean Jew:
Like davidminzer, I'm Jewish and descendant of holocaust survivors. Moreover, I've been a Zionist all of my life. I went to a Zionist school, I was active in Zionist youth groups. I've always been a fervent supporter of Israel as a refuge for Jews around the world who seek a place to exercise their traditions and embrace their identity in peace.
I sang the Israeli anthem in the train rails of Aushwitz-Birkenau and I pledged to fight every day of my life to make sure the savage crimes that had taken place there would never happen again. Every year I pledged: Never Again. Remember and Never forget.
Well, I haven't forgotten. And so to honor that pledge, to honor the memory of my family members who died in those death camps and because "there comes a time when silence is betrayal", today I finally and publicly end my support for the state of Israel . . . .
For the rest of this entry:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860
Kurt:I am listening to DemocracyNow www.democracynow.org I am listening to people who are there. My reaction (I am a Jew):
Guernica
Nanking
Warsaw
Fallujah
Gaza
Thanks for posting this, Kurt.
Only when more Israelis and Palestinians and Muslims and Jews come out against this bloody madness will we see change.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
And Americans, remember boys and girls we 3 BILLION a year to Israel so they can commit crimes against humanity on our (American citizen here) dime. 5 years of funding Israel would pay to save a million auto workers jobs in the midwest. I went to see a music show last night and a woman was wearing a button that said "Save Michigan" something to think about.
Actually we've bumped it up to 6 Billion a year...
I'll give you that our capitalist, Darwin belief's that run our business world don't match our funding of Israel...but our foreign policy has always been different from our domestic policy. In any case, if we were to truly stop funding other nations in the belief that you need to either stand alone or die and get out of the way, we should also stop giving 30 billions dollars a year for HIV treatment to africa, the billions in food we give to North Korea-our enemy. Did you know that roughly half the UN budget comes from the US, over half the food donations come form the US or are bought with US money....do you really want us to stop giving....
Billions for AIDS treatment not ONE dime for Israel's crimes against humanity, and I am a democratic socialist oriented Green so if that goes against capitalism, so much the better.
And the U.S. is behind on it's U.N. dues and gives amongst the lowest percentage of our GDP of any western country. They taught that to us in the "slow" school social studies class, smirk.
Try funding your socialist programs without the money capitalism generates...
Yes we give the smallest percentage of money per GDP than any other developed country however nobody takes into account our spending on the navy-how many lives did we save after the tsunami? We protect the worlds shipping lanes for transit-look at the Somali Coast and you'd see why its important. The People of the US donate more money as a population than any other nation. If you add it all up we are the most generous.
.Thank you Kurt, for this moving tale of political growth. I am certain that the growing numbers of "refuseniks" and activists for peace within the State of Israel will bring an end to the genocidal govt of that nation. As those who remember the Nazis die off the sickness that pervades Israel will die as well.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I saw today a comment, posted by a Palestinian who lives in Gaza. He swore at the Hamas, saying that they are the worse thing that ever happened to Gaza. Bringing nothing but death and destruction to the people of Gaza.
He said he doesn't blame Israel.
Yes, push a people to sufficient levels of desperation, and it is probably fairly easy to find someone supporting acquiescence.
---USAn---
PJD - Cogent comment. Joe
I like reading these posts a lot more than reading a similar forum on the BBC called "Have your say". At least here the Zionists are in a definite minority!
My favorite one is the overblown claims about rocket-fire from Hamas.
On the BBC site postings from Israeli's cite the 'fear' and 'your children are under constant threat of missile attack from the Palestinians' over and over again.
No recognition of the fact that only one Israeli has been killed by missile fire since the "cease fire" took place but over 280 Gazans have been killed. No recognition of the fact that trying to 'go to school' under the watchful eye of the Israeli military machine must be a far more frightening prospect than under the random launching of Hamas's unguided rockets. No recognition of the fact that missile shelters abound for Israeli's to hid in, while the Gazans are forced out of doors to search for food and water under Israeli guns.
Some posters in the BBC reacted to this by claiming that the Israeli's simply do not see the Palestinians as human beings.
Perhaps they have something there.
"Some posters in the BBC reacted to this by claiming that the Israeli's simply do not see the Palestinians as human beings.
Perhaps they have something there."
In a way, that's probably true...many soldiers of many different countries are, officially or unofficially, taught to regard their enemy as subhuman in some way, which makes killing them easier. The same has been done to American troops in Iraq.
First of all, some of the dead Gazan (At least 10) were killed by the Hamas. Including two Palestinian girls, which were killed by a Hamas rocket that missed its intendant Jewish civilian target.
I'll give you a quick summary:
Some of the anti-Israeli posters here ignore the fact that the Hamas fires rockets into civilian targets. Acting as if it never happened, even refusing to answer questions on the subject.
Some say that war crime is justified, as long as the victims are Jews who lives in Israel.
One even called for a Genocide of 6.1 million Jews who lives in Israel. (By drowning)
Many compared Israel's actions to the Nazi holocaust.
All the pro-Israeli posters here. (And we are a minority) care about Palestinians civilian casualties, and see all humans as equals and with equal rights.
We explain the difference in the statistics with the fact that the IDF is better trained and better equiped, and NOT because the Hamas takes better care in avoiding civilian casualties among Israelis.
"We explain the difference in the statistics with the fact that the IDF is better trained and better equiped..." In essence might makes right letto, that was wrong when it was the Nazi philosophy and wrong when Israel does it too. Go back to the drawing board and try again.
In the past, here in the US its been relatively easy to deny Israeli brutality with hand-waving arguments about how the attacks are just "retaliation", that they "minimize" civilian casualties, and that any civilian casualties are "accidental" and merely due to Palestinians using human shields.
In the US media, these arguments are not questioned. However, the first two arguments are largely meaningless. Offenses from the Israeli side never cease, and Palestinian offenses cease only rarely (though sometimes for periods of weeks or months), so every violence from either side could be described as a "response"-- or merely as part of an ongoing tit-for-tat. What does it mean to "minimize" civilian casualties? The minimum number of civilian casualties is ZERO. What precisely is the military necessity that requires some larger minimum number? In what sense is a missile strike on a household of innocent victims an "accident"?
Armed rebels are overwhelmingly young men, and their leaders overwhelmingly somewhat older men, whereas the general population in a country like Palestine is a wee bit over half female, and 30 to 40 % children under 14. Thus, demographics of killing provide a way to tell whether attacks are indiscriminate. Victims of random violence look like the general population, e.g., half female, 1/3 children; attacks on fighters will be biased toward men of fighting age; attacks on leaders will be biased toward older men.
In the past its been obvious that, by this kind of objective yardstick, a victim of Israeli violence is at least as likely to be a random victim as a deliberate target. This is true for the intifadah in general, and in regard to the Israeli assault on Lebanon a few years ago, it was considerably worse for innocent victims. In that conflict, Hezbollah showed more military discipline than the IDF, according to the casualty numbers. And I'm just talking about PROPORTIONS here, not the total numbers. In total numbers, Israel regularly kills far far more civilians than do the Palestinians.
Of course the defenders of Israeli violence have a seemingly endless supply of special reasons why the statistics don't mean what they seem to mean. One of these is the "human shield" argument. Human Rights Watch (HRW) blew this apart after Israel's assault on Lebanon. They concluded that Hezbollah positions were mainly "dug in" positions in rural areas. The innocent non-combatants killed in Lebanon were not human shields but victims of Israeli air strikes. E.g., see this article from the J. Post:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1188392547032
B'Tselem (www.btselem.org) has ongoing numbers of persons killed in Israel and the occupied territories, going back many years.
This isn't special-- neither the pattern of innocent victims nor the denial by imperialists and occupiers. Killing civilians is part of the dynamic of imperialism. US opinion-makers use the same arguments to excuse our violence against innocent Iraqis. Its all part of the great evils of militarism, racism and poverty.
Sorry but according to international law the minimum number of civilian casualties is not zero but rather it is proportional to both the number of militants killed and to the significance of the target....Those are the rules that the world lives by. Civilian casualties are regrettable but permissible.
What about the documented instances of Hamas using ambulances to transport weapons and men? Where is your moral outrage?
The extent that a missile strike on a household being an accident is simple, if the missile goes off course which even with the technology of today happens, then it is an unintended strike. It a terrible mistake but it is not a war crime, now for the missiles that Hamas intentionally launches at Israeli school and hospitals those are crimes.
"Civilian casualties are regrettable but permissible."
So it's OK if Israelis kill civilians but not if Hamas does? And you wonder why many of us consider Zionists to be overt hypocrtical racists. The consequence of aerial war is ALWAYS civilian causalties therefore Israel is ALSO targetting civilians and killing more civilians than Hamas and then using sophistry to try to avoid responsibility for this inevitable FACT.
The whole world sees what Israel is doing now as its Guernica whether Zionists choose to acknowledge this or not.
Your slow so i'll explain it again. Western beliefs state that while civilians casualties are regretful they are permitted if they are avoided as best as possible, never the intended target and occur when a significant legitimate target is also hit. Aerial war is allowed under international law but a reasonable effort must be made to avoid as many civilians as possible. Like i said earlier, if you don't agree with these laws then i suggest you petition the Hague but otherwise Israel has not committed war crimes today...they same cannot be said about Hamas for they only target civilians.
So it OK if I bomb YOUR neighborhood if there is a criminal hiding somewhere in the area. Massive arerial bombardment is all good until they are falling on you, right?
p.s. Yeah I am "slow" I have a tested 145 IQ and graduated from Oberlin that graduates more doctoral candidates than any other college in the country, smirk. Ad hominem much?
Were you trained in that technique by a pro Zionist organization or are you just naturally a crude and inaccurate bully?
Congratulations on being a member of mensa...
Regrettable, according to int'l law if a leading terrorist was hiding in the building next door to me yes it would be permissible to launch an attack on that building in which case a fair chance exists that i would be killed as collateral damage. These are the ways of the world.
I'm still amazed that all this anger exists towards Israel yet no anger is expressed at Hamas and if you believe that under no condition civilians can be endangered how can you be silent about Hamas..? Don't give me those occasional token lines about how 'While Hamas is surely not guilt free.." If you write page after page of anger at Israel for killing civilians why don't i see pages of anger at Hamas?
In the US selective prosecution is unethical.
"So it's OK if Israelis kill civilians but not if Hamas does?"
Well, law is not always moral...hell, it rarely is. But under international law, international relations theory, etc, sovereign states have the sole authority on the use of force..which is why execution of criminals is not legally seen as wrong. Currently, Israel is sovereign, and Palestine is not...so technically, it may be that Israel can kill civilians and Hamas cannot. I have my own beliefs about the use of force, and I completely oppose what Israel is doing...but it may in fact be more or less legal.
Despite the fact that many progressive people may not agree with the philosophy of Hamas, we see secular and democratic people world wide protesting against what is perceived as "War Crimes Against Humanity" perpetrated by the State of Israel.
One cannot escape the fact that Gaza is the largest OPEN_AIR prison camp in the world. This is really not about Hamas as much as it is about a nation ecomically blockaded and starved. It is a story about the ENSLAVER and the ENSLAVED. The relation between Israel and Palestinians is not one of equality and mutual respect. It is a MASTER SLAVE relationship. Peace cannot be based on such equations.
The State Of Israel needs to address the harsh reality of its history. That it is a nation whose founders and leaders committed a carefully calculated campaign, and crime, of ETHNIC CLEANSING against an indigenous population. The Palestinians are a people who were DISPOSSESSED and DISINHERITED, and brutally and inhumanely so.
As such, people worldwide will continue to speak out against this MASTER SLAVE relationship, and to speak out against injustice. This is not about being for or against HAMAS. It is about one's conscience pushing us to speak out against injustice.
Israel's ability to manipulate Western Media outlets is diminishing. More and more people rely on alternative resources to filter for the truth. Who really violated the ceasefire? Why is that Israel is allowed to blockade and starve another population? Is this not a violation of the ceasefire? How many Palestinians were killed in so-called pre-emptive strikes by the Israelis? And so these are not violations of a cease fire.
What is most promising and encouraging and uplifting is that we are seeing more and more Jews speaking out against Israeli policies of apartheid and war. This is probably the most important and significant development as it bites into Israel's ability to continue to exploit the HOLOCAUST. Israel has been adept at silencing the Christian West by continuous reminder of the West's guilt in the holocaust.
Israel needs to come to terms with itself and its conscience. The Holocaust was not a carte blanche for Israel to do wrong and call it right. With its actions, Israel only fuels rabid and blind anti-semitism against Jews, and trivializes the universal lessons that humanity should have acquired from the Holocaust.
Well put.
There were slaves who at times committed acts of murder. Not always merely against their owners.
This does not then justify their enslavement nor does it give me any reason to pause in my condemnation of that institution.
The oppression of the Palestinians by Israel and the continuing and mind-numbing injustice those people suffer is far and away the greater injustice.
Any slave-owner in the deep south would have used the bahaviour of his slaves to justify their continued enslavement. They are, after all, simply incapable of self-determination, yes?
Yet I see these same arguments used against the Palestinians today by Israeli's and supporters of Israel in an attempt to justify continuation of apartheid policies.
The slave-owner relationship mentioned above may not be exactly applicable, but the ideas of the opressors and the opressed are certainly common themes.
One suggestion though. Try not to use ALL CAPS so much in the future. I understand your passion, but ALL CAPS tends to point more to crackpots these days than to thoughtful opinion and can often cause people simply to skip over your message....which would be a shame because I thought you had some excellent points to make.
I am no apologist for Hamas or Fatah.
I am fully aware that neither of these organizations are bastions of human rights.
But then neither is the government of the United States (the country of my birth) nor is Great Britain (the country I live in).
Indeed I despise Hamas when they attack civilian targets, which they regularly do.
But then so too do the Israelis...with even more deadly effect.
Given what I saw Israel do to Lebanon, and in Jenin, and then there's the wall-land-grab in the west bank and the continuing 'settlement' of the west bank by the Israelis....good grief, Some Israeli rabbi's and people of conscience even had to put their bodies in the path of the military and the idiots in the settlements just so the Palestinians could harvest their own olives for goodness sake!!
Yes Crimes are in abundance on both sides.
Yes it is true there are no 'good guys'.
It's kind of like the argument as to why you should vote Republican.
You should vote Repbulican because the Democrats have been caught having actual sex with women. So the fact that Republicans have started illegal wars, demonstrated incompetence in the face of natural disasters, tortured people, 'dissappeared' people, rigged the elections, gave away expensive no-bid contracts, and then used the welfare state to bail out billionaires with the money gathered mostly from the middle classes are all 'OK' because clearly...'the Democrats do bad things too'.
Sorry....there IS such a thing as a scale of evil.
And at the moment, on the scale of cruelty and evil, Israel tops the list.
And I really find it ironic, don't you, that Hamas is now the enemy when Israel initially helped to CREATE Hamas as a foil to Arafat and Fatah!
Yes, that's right! another example of the benefits of covert aid.
Well, the Israeli tanks are massing on the border. After they've finished bombing Gaza into oblivion, then the IDF will enter and do another Jenin! They've had practice.
They know how to keep the press out until their dirty work is done. They know how to fool the MSM so that the truth doesn't reach most people. And they have control of much of the world's media, people like Murdoch, people who wouldn't know what truth was if they fell over it.
A bloodbath is going to happen in the Gaza strip. It is genocide, pure and simple. The Jews are going to get their Nazi moment, experience how it feels to wipe out another people!
I despair.
www.dangerouscreation.com
The battle of Jenin is not a good example for: "bombing a place into oblivion.", "bloodbath", "genocide"
In the battle 23 Israeli soldiers and 53 Palestinians, most of them militants, were killed. More than 200 Palestinian militants were captured.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jenin
That was a fierce fighting, and NOT a genocide.
All capitalim will give this sort of result. We all have the same blood but some think they are entitled by selfish power to do inhumane things to other folk, for Israel is one big factory with a lot of work force and a lot of need. Its all the same if you change the names. The greedy vs the indigenous. Look at all the strife on africa over oil plots, in every other country, mid east, asia. Look at Native Americans in our history and our beloved Mexicans who pick our fruit today. United Fruit or Chiquita using FARK and whoever is the flower company now doing the same.
You vote with your dollar in the end, so don't think you are so good as to know you are better. I could tell by looking at you. Who made your shoes? Who picked your cocoa beans for your partners chocolate, coffee, flowers, bananas, jeans, saw blades, router bits, hair dryers, SELFISH self entitled people, don't you see what you do??????? Cant help it anymore? You are an indentured servant to the empire. Where is your freedom now? You are a sell out. So am I....we can just try.
Very well put MY SPLIT PERSONALITY ,
In fact, the synchronicity is very telling that we both choose very similar "blood" themes, on two long CD threads about Gaza.
Please check out If Gaza Falls . . ., at time stamps :
npwr.luv December 29th, 2008 4:06 am
npwr.luv December 29th, 2008 5:31 am (was 3:46 am)
npwr.luv December 29th, 2008 4:27 am
As Richard Wright has said "The World's a small place, … … … but I wouldn't want to have to paint it".
Thank you !
If I might steel a bit of your thunder ( as rebar ), we're all either ( or both ) :
[______ S E L L _ O U T s ______]
or
[________ Z E A L O T s ________]
Namaste
Letto, Steelgray and JoeHope are nothing but paid shills to distractthe rest of you from doing what's needed - using your energy to bombard your reps with your feelings about any and all support we are giving Israel. Ignore these Fascist Zionists and their paid rhetoric - their tone reminds me of the 'Swiftboating' tactics used to distract the populace from facts.
But I could be wrong !
I doubt they are paid.
But wouldn't it be cool to be paid by the CIA just to post on this site?
Unfortunately, I think that such a statement both overestimates the importance of this site in the eyes of any government and also overestimates the importance of those who post upon it.
My own reasons are purely cathartic.
It really feels good to get injustices off my chest to a 'usually' sympathetic audience. Occasionally you even meet someone who can convince you that you've been wrong or mistaken and I like this. Even more occasionally you can convince someone else to dig a bit deeper and look past the usual propaganda that passes for 'debate' in the MSM these days.
These are the moments that make posting on here worth-while.
curmudgeon99,
Let me get this straight, from my "tone" alone you have concocted this outlandish conspiracy of yours. Simply from my "tone".
Do you think everyone in this world who doesn't totally agree with you is part of some vast conspiracy run by Zionist Jews?
I think you suffer from more than mere paranoia.
Why are you so focused against Israel?
Do you spend more time criticizing the far more insidious conflicts in places like Sudan, the Congo, or Chechnya to name just a few?
Why are you so focused on hating Israel? What is the real reason?
The answers are self evident:
Neither Sudan, the Congo, nor Chechnya receive $10 billion every year, from the USA.
There is nothing even remotely similar to the death grip that APAIC has on Congress and the Jacka$$ $ewer Main $tream Media (M$M) -- from any other country ( in any other country ).
The historical record of Jewish migration into the USA, and now into Israel.
The concentration of many M$M entities ( the few that are left ), that are run by Jews.
The concentration of many central banking entities ( e.g. countries ), that trace back to Rothschild family and control ( over ~ 200 years ).
The concentration of many top USA Gov'tal positions, that are Jews who are either also Zionists or advocates supporting Israel.
The actual proportion of Jews in USA population ( < 2% ), compared to the power & obvious influence ( control of issues, money, and war efforts ) that is wielded
¿ So what is the real reason that so much wealth, power, control of money, land grabbing, oil grabbing, corruption, and warmongering all seems to point in a similar direction ?
¿ Is there anything that I stated above that is not a well agreed upon fact, corroborated by thousands of independent sources ?
¿ Do we have reason to be paranoid ?
Namaste
I never knew that personal success was frowned upon....
All those facts seem to be accurate but i don't see the harm in them...
I will say the the US did offer Chechnya as much aid as we could but they are located in Russia and there isn't really a whole lot we could do unless we went to war with Russia...by the way why aren't you ranting about Russia killing Muslims in Chechnya at a far greater rate than Israel does in Palestine? Oh thats right, Russia is a friend of Arab nations so its okay what they do over there...
Jews historically control banking b/c Muslims and Europeans thought interest was evil...though they no longer do its after the established themselves as the leaders in the banking world...
.You are certainly capable of your own decisions but I cannot help but wonder why you respond to such as JoeHope?
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
.
Because I felt that I could respond in part for Curmudgeon99.
"But I could be wrong !"
Namaste
I wish i were being paid for this...but no, i just enjoy a spirited debate. Also the only way to make informed decisions is to hear all sides of an issue...
So I see which side you are on. I wonder if I could track your sleep time on CD here with as much as you post on this "topic". Remember, you said "hear", are you listening?
Americans in every state had better study who their elected officials are in our Senate and our House of Representatives...for example: Many are dual citizens of Israel; Rahm Emanuel(US Rep from Ill and just assigned as Chief of Staff to Obama) served in the Israeli Defense Forces in 1989. Their are currently at least 10 to 13 US Senators (out of 100) who are Jewish Americans: Lieberman- Conn, Schummer-NY, Feinstein and Boxer- Calif, Lautenberg - New Jersey, Specter- Penna, Coleman (or Franken)-Minnesota, Feingold-Wisc,the little heavy-set guy with the Ben Franklin glasses from Michigan. There are also at least 75 witin the US House. Is it any wonder with such a block of votes, plus 126 different lobbying groups that they influence our mideast policy. Research how many are in positions of poer within importent jobs at Homeland Sec-Chertoff, etc.
You don't seem to get it, Jews are involved in our Government not b/c Israel has found a way to secretly take over our leadership but rather that they are very smart, hard working people. We've gotten over the xenophobia of different races and religions. We don't fear that ever Catholic will do whatever the Pope tells them to do nor do we fear the Jews will sell us out to Israel nor do we fear that a Muslim will try to install Shia law in America. If your smart, hard working, and honest we'd love to have you in our Government, we have just booted out the past bunch for failing on all three of those points...sorry but if you weren't born in America you can't be President-it's in the Constitution-but you can be anything else!!
"We've gotten over the xenophobia of different races and religions." I bet literally hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims would vehemently disagree with that statement for good reason.
I think that hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims are transplanting their anger at their own Governments failings onto the US. I won't deny that the US has plenty of flaws but the abject poverty in the Arab world isn't caused by US interference but rather the corrupt and greedy leaders you put up with. President Bush was a pathetic President but i don't think he's much worse than Nasser, Arafat, Asad, Ghdafi, Ahmadinejad? You think these are good people?
"I bet literally hundreds of millions of Arabs and Muslims"
Therein might be why that is so...over 1 billion Muslims in the world, versus roughly 12 million Jews.
======================================================
A Palestinian girl talks about life in Gaza:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AHMDUFRVQOg&feature=related
And some "civilized" zionist "hospitality":
http://palestinian.ning.com/video/1970466:Video:21138
========================================================
I Believe in Miracles
You can break my bones
My free spirit is invincible
You can cause me the loss of sight
The light of my insight
You’ll never take away
In the shadows of darkness
Lies the corpse of your might
***
You can destroy my house
The windows of my hope,
You cannot break
The pillars of my faith
You can never shake
***
You can threaten me
With weapons of death
And mass destruction
Implanting fear in my heart
You cannot achieve
Nor can you cut off
My divine connection
***
With a missile
You can tear my body apart
My soul however
Is out of your reach
And is forever intact
***
You claimed victory in six days!
Victorious are those
With a dignified gaze
Facing tanks with tender flesh
And only with stones,
The F16 fighter blaze
***
You can never defeat my will to be
Because my power that you cannot explain
Grows from within the roots of my pain
***
You depend on the United States
For wealth and war supply
My infinite strength stems from
My creator, the One most high
***
I can show you the way
To victory, just say:
“In the name of God
Most gracious, Most merciful
The loving, the Just
The source of peace and light”
Strip away your greed and lust
You’ll be surprised!
Enjoy the transformation
Of your soul and heart
***
Examine your deeds and
Put your life to the test
Can you see what wrongs you’ve sown?
Were you planting roses
Or were you planting thorns?
***
Listen to your heart,
The true story you shall hear
Let your soul vision be your guide
The picture will be ever so clear
***
A few words are all you need to say:
“Forgive me God”
And all your sins will be washed away
***
“I’m sorry Palestine”
For all the pain I caused you
“I’m sorry children of Palestine
For being so cruel
Digging your graves
I’m not your superior
You are not my slaves”
***
Heaven will be yours
And on Earth will be peace
When you begin to care
***
In my heart you’ll find a place
And my land we can share
***
I believe in miracles
And that day I shall see
Because God is only just
God is only fair
.
Israeli's have such short memories. Did they forget that gas chambers and ovens are much more efficient than sloppy, inefficient, aerial bombings? I suppose they could just nuke all the Palestinians but unfortunately they are too damn close, with radioactive fallout being such a nuisance.
Ah you must be a German. Only Germans think gas chambers and human ovens are funny...haha. Your sick.
It's not humor, it's anger and disgust with a nation that should know better, but Israeli's like most humans have such short memories, or is this behavior their way of proving they can act like idiots as well as any other fascist state.
Eh well i'd ask you to be civilized in this discussion but i guess it would be a waste of time...civilized concepts are foreign here it seems. I'll just say making cute remarks about the holocaust is the surest way to have people ignore your opinions.
… a civilized Zionist, where ?
No no we already found them, were still trying to find a civilized Palestinian here...They seem to be as rare as the Dodo bird...
¿ Does were mean
[____ " WE ARE = WE'RE "____]
for your impatient txtng generation ?
Yeah, i'll give you that, my generation is impatient...luckily studies show that as long as you have the correct letters in a sentence you can spell every word wrong and the human brain will still be able to decipher and read the sentence...amazing eh?
I'm actually upset i used the wrong word b/c i thought that was a pretty smart retort...oh well.
ps i look gave you a rebuttal down the page.
Poor innocent israel!!
Aaah the purity of its intentions is heartwarming!
Look, how “accidently” it fids itself caught in violence!
Look how the innocent soldiers “accidently” shoot against their will
http://tinyurl.com/8dsopu
http://tinyurl.com/6u845b
http://tinyurl.com/8qhcxy
.
.
I read the link of provided by Nahida wherein a Jewish Youth organization describes how its supporters should spread propaganda in support of the Israeli state and the tactics to use when coming up against facts that can not be rebutted.
Letto and the others called here by MEGAPHONE are following it to a tee.
It most interesting to watch it in action but it is NOT working.
The bulk of the people who frequent common dreams are far too informed to fall for such shilling.
PK
"Salaam Shalom Shalom Salaam - the one sound louder than a bomb - the whole world sings this song"
-Michael Franti
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
-Mahatma Gandhi
"Love your enemy and do good to those who mistreat you"
-Jesus of Nazereth
Wasted words on those who are already deaf, blind, and dumb.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
These hypocrites like Letto can't even be bothered to read the article first:
"More than 300 Palestinians were killed and at least 900 wounded following an intensive Israeli air bombing campaign over the Gaza strip through the weekend.
This followed a barrage of rockets fired by Palestinian fighters at Israeli towns and cities bordering the coastal territory in the last few weeks which caused some damage but no casualties."
Notice how easily they bypass the truth to get to their talking points:
Letto December 28th, 2008 3:34 pm
Are you claiming that the latest Israel attacks on Hamas strongholds had nothing to do with the thousands of rocket attacks on Israeli civilian targets?
reply report this comment
joehope December 28th, 2008 5:05 pm
Letto, I wouldn't waste time with ardee, he has an antisemitic bent, and is just baiting you.
You are, of course, completely right about the rocket attacks against Israel.
I was searching for the string "December 28th, 2008 3:34" within all the comments on this forum.
I could find it only once. Within your comment.
Can you at least refer me to the appropriate article and comment so I could defend myself? That is only if you care for due process...
I wish there was a real trial … { & real due process }.
If that trial were to occur in the United States, Hamas would be found guilty and sentenced to death row while Israel would be found guilty of involuntary murder and given 15 years-out in 5 on good behavior....i wish there was a trial too.
Here are some of my beliefs
~The Settlements are illegal and Israel should remove them-they removed some but aren't doing enough in my opinion. If Hamas were to stop firing missiles the world would be able to pressure Israel to remove the settlement but with Hamas violating the cardinal rule of warfare, targeting civilians, the world doesn't really care that Israel is breaking a much less significant rule regarding land grabbing.
~The separation wall in and of itself isn't a problem to me, notice how the suicide attacks have fallen off dramatically since it was built. Again it is wrong to use it as a land grab but again with Hamas doing suicide bombings of buses and other civilian centers the world has sided with Israel as the lesser evil.
~Also you should note how the Israel gov. returns the land it takes form other countries once those countries sign peace treaties with it....hmmmm maybe Palestine should try the method that works instead of attacking Israel civilians
~Both sides have defied the UN but it should be noted that the Palestinians were the first side to violate UN resolutions.
~Israel has an active human rights movement take seeks to address the wrongs committed by the IDF however the same cannot be said about the Palestinians.
"The Settlements are illegal and Israel should remove them..."
I agree with that 100% and if Israel were to have the courage to do that FIRST I think peace and a two state solution might actually fall into place. Do the Israelis people have the will to do that? Considering Likud is leading in the polls, I have grave doubts. :(
And you could have your separation wall INSIDE the green line, what about that?
you ignore that when Israel pulled back from Gaza the first thing Hamas did wasn't reciprocate but rather they began lauching rockets at Israeli civilians!
If Israel were to remove the settlements tomorrow history indicates that Hamas will only fire more rockets at Israeli civilians...This is whats really twisted about this whole conflict. Israel began to implement the 'Road Map' as they call it and Hamas took the opportunity to launch rockets...WHY did they do that?
"With increasing control of East Jerusalem, with relative security from the wall surrounding what is left of the West Bank, and with thousands of remaining settlers east of the wall protected by a strong occupying force, there is a temptation for some Israelis simply to avoid further efforts to seek a peace agreement based on the Quartet's Roadmap or good-faith negotiations on any other basis.
"In this diplomatic vacuum, Israeli leaders have embarked on a series of unilateral decisions, bypassing both Washington and the Palestinians. Their presumption is that an encircling barrier will finally resolve the Palestinian problem. Utilizing their political and military dominance, they are imposing a system of partial withdrawal, encapsulation, and apartheid on the Muslim and Christian citizens of the occupied territories. The driving purpose for the forced separation of the two peoples is unlike that in South Africa - not racism, but the acquisition of land...
"Withdrawal from Gaza was the first unilateral step, leaving a tiny and nonviable economic and political entity, circumscribed and isolated, with no dependable access to the air, sea, or even other Palestinians..."
Jimmy Carter, Palestine Peace Not Apartheid
In other words, the "Roadmap to Peace" was a joke and Israel knew it. They never wanted it and did what they could to make sure it never saw daylight. They want land, and always have.
Read the book, student...if you can fit it in between all your texting.
"Let's take a quick look at Gaza. Its population has soared in recent years as Palestinian refugees have poured in from other areas occupied by Israel. In 1948 thre were 90,000 natives, the population more than tripled by 1967, and there are now more than 1.4 milliion - 3,700 people living within each square kilometer...
"Gaza has maintained a population growth rate of 4.7 percent annually, one of the highest in the world, so more than half its people are less than fifteen years old. They are being strangled since the Israelis "withdrawal," surrounded by a separation barrier that is penetrated only by Israeli-controlled checkpoints, with just a single opening (for personnel only) into Egypt's Sinai as their access to the outside world. There have been no moves by Israel to permit transportation by sea or by air. Fishermen are not permitted to leave the harbor, workers are prevented from going to outside jobs, the import or export of food and other goods is severely restricted and often cut off completely, and the police, teachers, nurses, and social workers are deprived of salaries. Per capita income has decreased 40 percent during the last three years, and the poverty rate has reached 70 percent. The U.N. Special Rapporteur on the Right to Food has stated that acute malnutrition in Gaza is already on the same scale as that seen in the poorer countries of the Southern Sahara, with more than half of all Palestinian families eating only one meal a day.
"This was the impact of Israel's unilateral withdrawal, even before Israel's massive bombardments and reinvasion in July 2006 after being provoked by Hamas militants."
Jimmy Carter, Palestine Peace Not Apartheid
================================================================
I WANT TO TELL THE WORLD
http://palestinian.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1970466%3ABlogPost%3A21449
=================================================================
please watch and share
.
ISRAEL: NO CIVILIAN CASUALTIES
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RlZd3vR6Kzk
“The Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni states there have been NO Civilian casualties in the Aerial Bombardment of the Gaza Strip, she agrees that the bombardment is Israels version of “Shock and Awe” designed to SURPRISE Hamas, and then goes on to make the startling assertion that the civilian population were WARNED that Israel was about to start the Aerial bombardment, so which is it? You cant warn people you are going to Bomb with a Surprise Bombardment can you? NO then Tzipi Livni must be lying!”
According to Israel, these are NOT civilian casualties.
Click on URL and scroll up for pictures & the horrors of Israel’s Nazi Regime:
http://palestinethinktank.com/2008/12/27/haitham-sabbah-photos-of-the-day/
This is a blunt LIE. Did you even listen to Livny's speech withinh the link you yourlself published?
Did you think that the readers of this forum are morons who won't open the link?
She said she doesn't accept some of the reposts that claim a high civilian casualty number.
She also said Israel was trying to minimize civilian casualties.
She NEVER said there were NO civilian casualties.
You speak lies when you quote Livny saying that there no civilian causelties.
Basted!!!
Basted??!!! You like basting a turkey in the oven? You need to slow and think before you type dude.
Petition calling for the U.N. to mediate a ceasefire and protect civilians on both sides:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/gaza_time_for_peace/?cl=162704585&v=2609
It's okay Letto,
Let her remain in her fantasy world...if she thinks she'll change people by intentionally misquoting them let her be. Nobody will buy her listen to her, she will only belittle her own cause by these antics. Letto, you and i can rest knowing that although these people here will never accept our opinion we know that the world at large will never accept these people's opinion. The US will continue to give Israel the keys to the US armory.
"Letto, you and i can rest knowing that although these people here will never accept our opinion we know that the world at large will never accept these people's opinion"
Oh yeah, the votes at the UN show that don't they? Polls in the Mid East, Europe and the rest of the world show this too. For instance:
http://www.ujc.org/page.aspx?id=50080
"Results of a new poll commissioned by the European Commission show that Israel is believed by Europeans in 15 countries to be the greatest threat to world peace, greater than North Korea, Iran or Afghanistan."
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_bt/325.php?nid=&id=&pnt=325&...
"A majority of people polled for the BBC World Service across 27 countries believe Israel and Iran have a mainly negative influence in the world with almost as many saying the same about North Korea and the United States."
http://www.globescan.com/news_archives/bbccntryview/backgrounder.html
"Large majorities also have negative views in Europe, including Germany (77%), Greece (68%) and France (66%). Indonesia (71%), Australia (68%) and South Korea (62%) are the most negative in countries in the Asia/Pacific region. Brazilians (72%) are the most negative in Latin America."
"The two countries with mostly positive attitudes about Israel do so in modest numbers. Forty-five percent of Nigerians and 41 percent of Americans have positive views of Israel’s influence in the world, while nearly one-third in each country has negative views. Kenya and India have populations with divided views of Israel."
Luckily Israel still has the US..which is really the only nation you need...
Don't worry, Israel will be protected by the US for as long as they need.
Merry Christmas.
steelgray,
Why don't you tell us your real name so that we may know you better? You seem such a wealth of information and we would like to see what other learned things you have written.
Please...be a man (or woman, as the case may be). Stand up from the shadows and free yourself! You have nothing to worry about - the US will protect you.
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
My name really is steel gray, Matthew Steel Gray. I live in Charleston, SC. I am a political science student at the College of Charleston. Do you need my address?
Awww a wet under the ears college student, a mere Rotweiler puppy, isn't that cute? Did your proffs "turn you on" to the MEGAPHONE software, your college Zionist group, or did you find it all on your lonesome?
Again you must revert to name calling...
You do know that age does not inherently grant wisdom...
Simply b/c some on is an adult does not mean they are mature and likewise just b/c someone is a teenager does not make them immature. I do not prescribe to these ascribed status's. People are judged on their actions...like that act of name calling...
So please belittle me, trash me, compare me to all the dogs you wish for your only harming your own character.
Then again there isn't much character left for a person who wishes that Israel were nuked....you might seek some anger management classes to help you out.
Sincerely,
MSG
No...we have enough - thanks.
Thanks also for informing us of your current status - though I should have known that you're a poli-sci student. I give you an A+ in regurgitative rationality. Your profs must be proud of you!
Folks, people like Matthew Steel Gray (uh huh) are our once and future leaders. All starting to make sense now, isn't it?
"All Nature's difference keeps all Nature's peace." Alexander Pope
I have made straight A's in my History and Political class as it were...though my professors rarely agree with me, it is a liberal arts college, i will say i do have their respect. They recognize that although i don't agree with them on every issue i am well studied on what i say. They respect me b/c i make informed decisions. They and you don't have to agree with anything i say it matters not to me...by the when did making personal insults become part of debate etiquette?
.Its really a shame that Jews do not believe in Hell. If they did you would certainly have to consider how you will burn in those eternal fires for all eternity.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Its a shame the Palestinians think that targeting innocent civilians is legitimate warfare..maybe one day they'll learn that the civilized world doesn't play that way. Until then they will remain Israel's punching bag and nobody will care...
Israel bombs a civilian area around Hamas' headquarters, killing far more innocent people than there have been killed within Israel to this point and SAYS they're trying to minimize civilian casualties. Wonderful, the rest of the world shouldn't worry then.
The US government SAYS they invaded Iraq because of WMD, then for democracy. Facts and logic don't apply when powerful people say things.
A tragedy indeed.
The best solution to this tragedy is of course peace.
However, if the Hamas does want war, at least they should follow the same moral rules as Israel.
They should redeploy to isolated bases away from schools hospitals and residential houses. Then, when the IDF retaliates - civilians won't be hurt.
Also, they should target only military bases troops and equipments, and not civilian target.
Unfortunately, they don't play by these rules.
And when the Zionazi thugs murdered Rachel Corrie, what rules were they playing by?
How would you describe a person who blame a whole ethnic group for the actions of one members of that group? (Who wasn't even following the groups rules)
Are you insane? follow the same moral rules as Israel? What would that be? Denying the sick and invalid simple antibiotics and pain medicine? denying emaciated children food? systematically shutting down water supplies, power, sanitation systems. Forcing the population to dig tunnels to Egypt to try and smuggle food and medicine?
The Israeli's, and those country's, like the US, that condone their atrocities, should be ashamed.
You do know that Israel has no legal obligation to supply Palestine with anything. Israel gives medical attention to Palestinians in charity but they have no obligation. You can say they have a moral obligation which is true but only as far as they wish to extend it. Those tunnels aren't used to smuggle food and medicine but rather guns and missiles. If Palestine doesn't like being dependent on Israeli power supplies then maybe they should build there own utility provider...
Then it must be that Justice is surely BLIND, but certainly not in a good way.
You have the inhumane nerve of a lizard eating it's own children :
"I have no obligation to feed you, and in fact I'm pretty hungry right now -- slurp."
Namaste
I'll give you credit for that is a pretty colorful analogy..
I think the Israeli's would have a lot more sympathy for the Palestinan's suffering if there weren't so many rockets raining down in Southern Israel. Did you know that the hospital in S. Israel had to be moved underground b/c it was being hit by so many rockets?
Don't accept compassion from the Israeli hands when your striking at them with your own hand.
Why don't you criticize Egypt for the have a wall between Palestine just like Israel, they have sealed their border with Palestine just like Israel, or how bout all the Arab nations that neglect the Palestinian refugee camps they promised to maintain...?
"Unfortunately, they don't play by these rules."
Rules? Which rules are they? What rule that Hamas breaks does Israel not? Let's let facts enter the picture here. What rules on exploitation and violence does Israel NOT break?
In WWII, Jews were obviously under attack and getting slaughtered. What actions in defense, during that time, would not have been justifiable according to you, given the circumstances? Not that you'd approve of these actions, but given the horrible condition of Jews at the time, given what was being done to them, what would have been out of bounds? Now tell me how moral Israel is for what the Palestinians have done in response to their condition. Universality, right?
Hamas commits a greater crime according to western civilization when they intentionally kill Israeli civilians. Even if Israel kills more people they do so without the premeditated intent that Hamas uses. Also if Hamas had more accurate weapons do you think they would stop targeting civilians? It would seem that they make no effort today to spare civilians lives so i say it's a good thing they are stuck with crude rockets b/c it they had what the US gives Israel then we would have tens of thousands of dead Jews...
You must recognize the foundation of the criminal justice system
The Palestinians using rockets or whatever weapon they can get their hands on (minus certain chemical or nuclear weapons) is fine but their target is what i fine deplorable. The can fire as many rockets at the Israeli military they want but they don't target the military they target civilian populations, they hit schools, churches and hospitals. I really can't understand how you defend the targeting of civilians? I goes against justice!
You say its just human nature well that line of reason will lead us to anarchy. We establish laws so we don't revert to our wild, animalistic human nature. Your asking us to go backwards.
I don't agree with bulldozing the houses of suicide bombers is wrong but i think it is a much lesser crime the the act of the bomber...remember the Israeli Gov. clears the house before they destroy it unlike the suicide bombers who don't tell anybody there about to blowup the bus there riding on...that makes a bid difference.
STEELGRAY,
Perhaps you should have stopped while you were "behind", as most stop digging when they find themselves in a hole ?
You absurdly expect anyone ( at all, other than another Zionist ) to agree to this hateful trash:
"Hamas commits a greater crime according to western civilization when they intentionally kill Israeli civilians. Even if Israel kills more people they do so without the premeditated intent that Hamas uses."
I suppose you must have some proof that 'Israel kills without premeditated intent', because all the evidence so far says just the opposite, like Israeli tanks killing English newsreporters that videotaped their own deaths ?
With such accurate Israeli weapons and thorough intelligence gathering ( prior to any assault ), one must really wonder why so many children are killed in Palestine.
Perhaps the Palestinians don't "target" IDF forces because only illegal Zionist settlements are within range ?
So please do explain and justify the collective punishment against an entire extended family, because one member choose to put on a bomb vest. Does your logic means that every "accidental" murderer of a Palestinian, should also result in their family's Israeli houses being bull-dozed away ? BTW, we'll provide at least 1 minute of notice, so all Israelis can exit with at most their own bodies.
For your hideously vulgar and decrepit sense of morality, you are then blessed that others choose a higher standard, out of a collective sense of being connected to everyone else ( regardless of your psychopathetic beliefs ).
Namaste
Your claiming it legitimate to kill settlers? Wow, and you wonder why the Western World backs Israel...
Yes i expect you to recognize a basic principal of the Western criminal code: If you premeditate the murder of one person in America you will prolly spend the rest of your life in jail, you might even be given the death penalty. Now if your playing with a gun and it goes off and kills a bus driver and that bus crashes killing 50 people you are guilty of negligent homicide/manslaughter. You spend 15 year or less behind bars. These are rough estimates but the theory is solid. IN the Western World, the intent to kill compounds the crime.
Israel doesn't intend to kill civilians, they do kill them yes, but not with intent they are collateral deaths when the target is Hamas militants. So yes even though Israel will kill more Palestinians in a strike that Hamas will kill Israeli's they Hamas crime is more severe in our eyes. Not because and Arab is worthless than a jew but b/c the Hamas targeted a civilian while the Israeli targeted a militants.
No S*T$%^EE*L#%^,
I never said that "Your claiming it legitimate to kill settlers?"
Your debate skills of ignoring everything I mention, and just repeating back your own ignoble claptrap is almost overpowering.
BTW, when you attempt to write English, like : "If you premeditate the murder of one person in America you will prolly spend the rest of your life in jail … " -- you PROBABLY need to run a spell check to keep us from bursting out laughing !
Wow, I'm attempting to communicate with a script kiddy from who the hell knows where -- no wonder none of the sense and facts of the matter sink in.
Namaste
Ah forgive me but i am absentmindedly incorporating text slang into my comments...
It's the affect from text messaging...there was actually some interesting articles on it in the NYT not long ago. In any case my ego will survive you laughing at my generation.
.No one is laughing, we are pointing fingers and shaking our heads sadly.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
hmm, well that not god for you b/c guess you gonna be in charge of you within a decade...
Perhaps the Palestinians don't "target" IDF forces because only illegal Zionist settlements are within range ?
I cut and pasted that from your comment onto here.
Your statement is pretty clear..Palestinians target settlements b/c they are the only thing in range. Your words not mine.
Look, I don't believe any killing is justified ever -- as I revere all life -- even mass murdering Zionists.
Your twisted logic makes my statement ( about actual range ) in response to uprooting your pathetic comment ( mano y mano ), tantamount to my condoning war crimes.
If I were in Palestine and 7 out of 12 of my family members were recently dead - I'd no longer be a pacifist ( nor concerned about eating meat ) -- and I'd probably figure out a way to do the mano y mano BS and make it hurt really bad, in a very obvious way. In that twisted context, I would be at war with illegal Zionist invaders, and would sleep well ( other than only having boiled weeds to eat for several weeks, and grieving every moment ). And in a war like that, I would aim and hit enemy targets to my best ability -- but you know collateral damage does happen ( Ooooppps ).
You appear to be a sick and immoral psychopath, with absolutely no grasp of reality, which is prolly pretty good step up, for most Zionists.
Congratulations on that !
Namaste
I will say your one of the only people on this page who have said the loss of life on either side is a tragedy. I commend you for that...after all there was a joke made about the Holocaust not too long ago.
My twisted logic? I merely stated a logical reason why Israel attacked Gaza yesterday.
You can call me all the names you want if it gives you some sort of pleasure but i assure you i am neither a psychopath nor a Zionist. I'm a realist. I you want to end the conflict then Hamas must refrain from rocket attacks, those rocket attacks are as pointless as they are illegal. If the rockets stop falling the US will get the Settlements removed, the check points lifted, and the border opened. But as long as Hamas believe that firing rockets at Israeli civilians who are as innocent as the injured Palestinians we saw on news today nothing will change. I live in America but i wasn't harmed in the 9/11 attack so i can't relate to having bombs go off around me. I will say i didn't want to go into Iraq, i don't want to simply bomb Muslims countries so i feel better about what happened to New York and i really do want peace the Palestine...I hear its a lovely place and once there is peace i'd love to visit. Your right i can't relate but maybe that's a good thing...i can still think without being blinded by passion.
STEELGRAY,
Wow, you somehow feel that ZEALOTRY is far superior to "being blinded by passion", which is very illuminating about your ideas about thinking.
Like being arrogant so often surpasses being enlightened, "and maybe that's a good thing..." ?
Although we might agree in part that "the loss of life on either side is a tragedy," you ( and other Zionists ) fail to understand the far greater TRAGEDY in having supposedly moral and democratic gov'ts ( like Israel & USA ) that do absolutely nothing to pursue PEACE, reconciliation, nor understanding -- instead preferring death, destruction, suffering, and absolute control over Palestine's destiny ( their way or the highway ).
As to your baffling statement "I[f] you want to end the conflict then Hamas must refrain from rocket attacks, those rocket attacks are as pointless as they are illegal," I can only surmise that you believe that I am personally standing between Israeli PEACE efforts -- because I've yet to stop the offending rockets ?
If the "rocket attacks are as pointless as they are illegal," I am unable to comprehend what the big deal is to murder so many Hamas members ( in retaliation for nothing )?
Perhaps you fail to completely identify with the Zionists, but your words herein do paint you clearly as a Zealot !
Namaste
.Utter horseshit, you agendized clown. In fact, it is you and your Israeli cohorts who seek to make one side of this conflict without blame. Those who seek to stop the slaughter are far more open minded about the violence being wrong and the assigning of blame in equal measure. It is only you propagandists, from a cubicle in Jerusalem, who seek to make the actions of Israel pure and noble.
It is a damn shame, that of all the nations on this earth, Israel is the one place in which acts of genocide should be abhorred above all else. Instead you have developed a national neurosis that allows you to become that which you fear most. I add only that I understand that there are many within the State of Israel who hate the policies of their government towards the Palestinians as much as we here. Your propaganda sucks and will not fly much longer. Justice will out.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
How many times do i need to tell you i don't work in a cubicle..i have an office.Ha.
Justice is being delivered as we speak...It comes in the shape of Israeli warplanes that were manufactured here in the USA...Let Justice Ring.
Your absolutely right that blame is equal, have you been reading my posts? The checkpoints, settlements, walls, block aid..all of it needs to go.
The State of Israel existing side by side with the State of Palestine..it will happen but only once Hamas is silenced. The checkpoints and wall exist to keep suicide bombers out so Palestinians have only themselves to blame for their existence. A persons self defense is more important than a persons freedoms. The settlements are being removed as we speak..but not fast enough i'll give you that. The block aid is punishment for the rockets..when the rockets stop the borders will open...remember it was Palestinian violence that closed the border to begin with...remember how it used to be open and how thousands of Palestinians worked in Israel. How can't the Palestinians see how they only are making it harder on themselves? Peace will come when the rockets stop falling-it's a simply equation.
dup zap
To the HYPOCRITES of zion:
This open letter is an enumeration of guidelines toward a possible PEACE, it is destined to BLIND supporters of ZIONISM who blather "peace" while live in a state of denial
Those who attempt to beautify the ugly fascist racist face of zionism, who apply themselves as a dripping lipstick on the lips of a pig in a futile attempt to revamp its gruesome features
Those who delude themselves that if they use their lovey-dovey words they could disguise the true vile nature, the wicked chauvinistic ideology and incessant crimes of the monster of zion
Those who feel no shame in defending a disgraceful entity which happened to be established by terror and maintained by terror and continue to exist by terrorising those under its control
Those who act as a pathetic frayed fig leaf trying to conceal the obscenity and hideous disgrace of their state which was audaciously built upon the destruction of another nation
Those who ludicrously still marvel at and admire the naked emperor’s clothes when everyone in the world could see his pitiful nudity
Those who utter their disingenuous wishes to coexist in peace while choosing to live in a state of denial with their heads in the sand by refusing to acknowledge or remedy their injustices and wrong-doings
Those who refuse to listen to the voice of reason and the call of justice, and muffle each and every whisper that asks for it
Those who silence any call for GENUINE and TOTAL reconciliation and block every REAL endeavour that gives an honest diagnosis and point out to the genuine healing process which would lead to reconciliation
Those who attempt to deceive the world by accusing every defiant and decent individual who insists upon full restoration of rights, dignity and humanity of Palestinians, by accusing him/ her of extremism, fanaticism or support of terrorism
Those who endeavour to cover the rays of truth with a sieve of lies
Neither do I desire to waste my breath on, nor do I have the interest to talk to
They are worthy only of their karma
Collaborators of crime, who want to escape responsibility, keep the status quo, and dismiss the due rights of their prey under the disguise of nonsensical words like:
"New israel wants peace"
"Both parties are guilty"
“We must accept facts on the ground”
“We must not go back in time”
“We must look forward to the future”
What future, you hypocrites?
What good is a future built upon denied massacres and genocide?
What good is a future built upon incessant theft and lies?
What good is a future, in which the criminals would neither acknowledge their wrong doings nor have the desire to remedy the wounds of their injured victims
What is the meaning of words when actions counteract?
Have they never came across the saying “Actions speaks louder than words”?
Over the past sixty years you've had your say and you did what you chose to do,
And now,
Well, guess what?
It’s time for us to speak and for YOU to LISTEN to us and HEAR our say:
you are not welcome in our stolen land of Palestine with your existing mentality
Before we accept you and welcome you as guests and as our brothers and sisters in our land that you have stolen:
Go
Repent
Wash the blood off your hands
And weep
Weep, the souls of the little ones you’ve murdered
Weep, the innocent villages you’ve destroyed
Weep, the blessed olive trees you’ve uprooted
Weep, the tears of little girls you’ve orphaned
Weep, the mutilated bodies of small boys you’ve devastated
Weep, the tens of thousands of youth you’ve disabled
Weep, the tens of thousands of homes you demolished
Weep, the millions of aching hearts of refugees you’ve created
Weep, the soil of the Holy Land you’ve polluted
Weep, the stream waters and ancient wells you’ve poisoned
Weep, the hundreds of thousands of bodies you’ve tortured
Weep, the hills and orchids you’ve disfigured
Weep, the alleyways you’ve dissected
Weep, the landscape you’ve cut to pieces
Weep, the towns you’ve bombed to oblivion
Weep, the dignified women you’ve dishonoured
Weep, the enduring elderly you’ve humiliated
Weep, the infants you prevented from getting to hospitals
Weep, the laughter and giggles of tiny ones you’ve muted
Weep, the scents of herbs and blossoms you’ve suffocated
Weep, the farms you’ve destroyed and confiscate
Weep, the culture of embroidery, humus and falafel you’ve robbed and claimed
Weep, the prophets’ messages you've abused and defiled
Weep, the Divine Guidance you’ve corrupted
Weep, the Ten Commandments you’ve violated
And when you weep long enough, hard enough and sincerely enough, you will discover that you don’t need to come to us begging us to talk to you or to forgive you, you won’t need to go around the web scattering, boasting and blathering about peace
Because if and when your repentance is genuine it will automatically show in your actions
You will know then what you have to do and how to do it, to be forgiven
And then and only then, you WILL find “peace” that you allegedly seek
.
Thank you, dear N A H I D A ,
May your blessings ( and your people's ) be multiplied by the crimes committed against Palestine, and the world respond in a like manner -- with an immediate an humane response to the continued atrocities and collective punishments & suffering.
( as a mathematician, perhaps you might possibly be able to estimate that number ? )
Namaste
Most welcome dear Namaste :)
Thank you for your beautiful prayer, we need it
keep up the good work
I offer this (which you've seen before) for you and all the good souls that hovers over the planet to help the weak and oppressed:
May…
In your garden
May your good deeds
Flower before your eyes
Bright and colourful
Around your shoulders
May your kind actions
Swathe you with love
Warm and serene
Beneath your feet
May your nice words
Blossom poppies and lilies
Startling and sublime
Eternally
May your tender heart
Be filled with joy so sweet
salam,
Zionist occupiers;
The truth is out now, and no amount of hasbara is adequate enough to conceal your crimes
Zionist thieves… wake up to reality
You claim to be The Chosen above all nations
Yet cry isolation and world’s detestation
You claim God promised you a land,
Whose people you dismiss
Their existence you deny
You kill, and expel… dispossess and displace
Ethnic cleansing and genocide
Humiliate and torment…
With multitude of evidence blatant and clear
You refute all facts
Lie with no remorse
Innocence you proclaim, hiking higher moral ground
You kill and plead victim-hood
You seem to be unable to see
“Anti-Semitic’s” card is obsolete
Crocodile tears work no more
You boast and brag and sing your own praises,
Then wonder why people are annoyed!
You claim you made the desert bloom,
While uprooting millions of trees
You claim civilization,
While destroying thousands of schools and homes
You claim to be the only democracy,
While gunning down elected leaders and supporting tyrannies
You claim your race is most intelligent,
When you are not even an ethnic group
How racist, how arrogant, your supremacist attitude
You claim your army to be most moral,
While breaking the bones of boys and girls
Shooting little ones in their mothers’ arms
And at check-points you sneer at babies dieing
The minute they are born
You claim your actions to be the most humane,
While you torture, persecute and maim
You claim to be the light unto nations,
While displaying malice as jet-black nights
Committing acts of evil of extreme proportions
Then on TV screens, with straight faces and ghastly smiles,
Lie all about it
Under the watchful eyes of God and man
Can anyone surpass you with wickedness or mischief?
Army of zion, be prepared
A genuine advice from a heart that cares
What evil you do, harms no one but your own poor souls
Either wake up and heed the call
Make a U-turn
Give back what you’ve stolen, and ask for forgiveness
Or carry on planting seeds of your destruction
Rest assured… choosing that way
Only brings closer the day of your fall
nahida was instructed by her supervisor not to answer this following question:
"Do you think the fact that the Hamas' was firing rockets and mortar bomb into Israeli civilian targets has anything to do with the crises in Gaza???"
Letto, perhaps Jonah would substitute any of those groups if they had just slaughtered and/or maimed over a thousand men, women and children, mostly civilians. Your whines of anit-semitism grow tiresome.
You are absolutely correct. If any group or country behaves as Israel does, I would surely call for all aid to stop and all of their loyalties be reduced within any government.
How about: Americans, Chinese, Russians, Spanish, Germans???
Remember the Alamo.
I will restate the word "rid from government" to make it more palatable. The USA must demote from their government all religious influence including, but not limited to Jewish-Americans.
The USA must rid itself of all Jewish influence in their government in all areas. Once our government has been purged of these parasites Israel must be stripped of all largesse both past and present rendered to Israel The USA must prosecute all Israeli enablers and hold to account those who perpetrated the attack on the USS Liberty (after all the Jews still hunt down and prosecute people from the holocaust which was longer ago than the Liberty) as well as all those who spied on the USA for Israel (Lawrence Franklin,Jonathan Pollard and AIPAC). If Israel does not comply warn them then bomb them. The Lord my God has conveyed this to me in a dream!
You'd better strip the government of all Christian influence too then. Maybe then we wouldn't have a President who said that God told him to invade Iraq?
Jonah:
"The USA must rid itself of all Jewish influence..."
"Once our government has been purged of these (Jewish) parasites"
Colorful words. Where did you find them? Was it the last KKK gathering?
Have you ever tried different variations? (for example: replacing the word Jewish with Irish, Hispanic, Nigger etc...)
Hmmm,
I don't recall that either the Irish, Mexican, or Blacks
… have EVER murdered dozens of USA sailors, and nearly sunk a USN vessel ( multiple jet passes over hours, torpedo boats too -- redundantly targeting dozens of communication antennas and the ship's boiler, to prevent USN fleet notification ).
Have you ever read any unbiased ( non-Zionist ) history ?
Speaking of Colorful, have you ever noticed how well ( and how far away ) one can see a 14 foot long USA flag, on a clear sunny day in the Med? One might guess that aircraft strafing the USS LIBERTY's decks at 20', might have been able to distinguish the old red, white and blue ( at least after their 30th pass )?
Oh how embarrassing ( for Israel ) that the NSA intercepts recorded the Israeli fighter pilots calling home base, after noticed that big USA FLAG -- and were nonetheless ordered to continue the SAVAGE unprovoked illegal attack, in international waters.
Namaste
During World War II, US forces killed 28,000 Americans.
Is that reason enough to purify the US from American parasite infestation?
Deliberate MURDER is punishable, whereas "friendly fire" is regrettable and not easily forgiven. Again, you Zionistas mention war -- as if the USA and Israel were in some war at that time, why is that ?
Have you ever read anything about automatic IFF systems ( ID Friend or foe ), or can you explain why the Israeli's Jets & shore batteries were JAMMING USS frequencies ( instead of those used by assumed Egyptian navy ) ? Why block USS Liberty's plaintive SOS calls back to the USN fleet, unless there was no accidental attack ?
I suppose by your remarks, that you must believe that somehow some Arab terrorists, broke the Israeli Air Farce encryption, and spoofed the Israeli headquarters into authorizing a continued attack on the USS Liberty ?
As far as an infestation of parasites, I'm guessing that you associate vermin with the continued attack by Israeli planes and ships -- upon the NSA's multi hundred million dollar ( in today's currency ) spy boat ?
Namaste
Letto is now attacking we Americans like the typical ungrateful Jew he is and is truly an Israeli-firster. He has proven where his loyalty is as is the case with their US citizens.
I never said I'm a US citizen.
Where did you get this idea from?
Excellent point and thank you very kindly.
Ummmm, i seem to recall that mexicans have sunk a US navy vessel and killed hundreds of American sailors and soldiers. You might want to check your history before you post items. The US and Mexico fought a war against each other....FYI
Oh, I'm soo sorry STEAL land grabbing GRAY --
was there was a declared war between the USA and Israel that the USS Liberty ( in 1967 ) was not informed about ?
How many USN ships did Mexico sink in 1967 ?
Your responsive and complete reply is awaited with baited breath.
Are you trying to support the Zionist cause -- because if so -- it isn't working out too well.
Namaste
Latest evidence (released in 2003) shows that the USS Liberty incident was a friendly fire case and NOT a deliberate attack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Ship
On July 2, 2003, the National Security Agency released copies of the recordings made by an EC-121 aircraft that flew near the attacks from 2:30 p.m. to 3:27 p.m....
...English transcripts of the tapes—recorded by U.S. warplanes—indicate that Israel still believed it had hit an Egyptian supply ship even after the attack had stopped. [9] [10] After the attack, the rescue helicopters are heard relaying several urgent requests that the rescuers ask the first survivor pulled out of the water what his nationality is, and discussing whether the survivors from the attacked ship will speak Arabic...
The english translations said … ( who the f cares what the NSA says happened after the fix was in ?).
The original recordings in Hebrew were translated in real-time on board the USS Liberty, and that is the eye (ear ) witness truth of one of the surviving crew members.
The white-wash cover-up in well documented with thousands of corroborating facts, and this officious pseudo-factual account is no more accurate than the bogus Israeli statements made in 1967.
Oh how twisted of a web of deceit the wiki weaves:
"After the attack, the rescue helicopters are heard relaying several urgent requests … "
The USS Liberty crew had ABSOLUTELY no Israeli rescue helos, and only received brief USN ASSISTANCE hours after the attack -- prior to limping back to a Greek port, a day or so after the attack ( per the Liberty's reports and crew testimony ).
One might suspect that those USN sailors might just recall the presence of any rescue effort -- but they didn't because it didn't happen.
So when did the Israeli realize it was a "friendly fire mistake", when their illusionary helos were unable to pull any Arabs from the Med ? Was that before or after the torpedo boats fired away, and strafed the lifeboats ?
Namaste
1,700 American died in combat with Mexico
Mexico didn't fight us in '67 but rather '47..1847 and it was the 1st and 2nd battles of Tabasco. Your previous statement was opened with regards to attacks on American navy ships so i corrected you...
Your Welcome...
Any future history lessons you need just ask.
Regrettably, I can see why iron heeled & steel jawed Zionists view the attack of the USS Liberty, as if we Americans were at war with Israel.
Regrettably, the current APAIC throttling of real news upon the American people's thoughts and throats, has been going on for many decades.
So, because there was no USA war with Israel, and we Americans were NOT participating in any battles alongside Israeli troops -- there is absolutely no basis nor any explanation or response about the disastrous USS Liberty attack !
¿ With friends like the Israelis, who the f⊃©k needs enemies ?
I hope you weren't responding to me. I was posting a hypothetical, but if you want to defend MORE imperialism let's ignore the hypothetical I gave and go on the tangent.
Letto, I'm sorry but you don't have convincing arguments, you are defending the morally indefensible and you know it. You are the equivalent of the defenders of Stalin. Worse though, since many of the moral people who defended Stalin turned against him once his crimes were revealed. Not people like you, even when the statistics, the comments by the leaders in the Israeli government who called for and committed many of the crimes people like you say are untrue charges by the mythical international anti-Semitic conspiracy and the majority of human rights groups and international bodies (including many "self hating", i.e. moral and logical, Jews) who reveal the consistent Israeli crimes against humanity.
Let's say that you are a member of the Democratic Party, live on the Mexican border and the countries have a history similar to these two groups (you know, fiction, like the US stealing Mexico's land, slaughtering the natives and driving them into economic slavery while making a killing in the war industry that helps them suppress Mexicans...wait) and some Democrats lob some bombs into Mexico. Is Mexico morally justified in bombing the area AROUND the Democratic Party headquarters (cause the bombs always kill innocent people)? What if, even worse, the it turns out another group did it, the Libertarian Party?
Also, if the Hamas lead government (elected in large part because of the social services they deliver to what would be Palestinians, economically isolated and destroyed by Israel) is appealing to so many people, and people like you claim that they are a reactionary response to Israel's actions, how can this be in any way logical? Provide a single example where immoral insane crap like this actually made Israel safer.
You might think you're defending a country under attack, you aren't, and you don't have a convincing argument. Your argument, and the morals behind it, is rotten. What do you call a person who tries something that fails without exception and each time expects the exact opposite result? Other than a "defender of Israel", an idiot.
Wilber1 "you are defending the morally indefensible and you know it"
What I try to defend is the principle of UNIVERSALITY. The idea that the same set of rules should be put to all countries and all nations. Equally. No exceptions. (Yes, even on Palestinians)
If someone say: Country X is wrong when they do action A, but country Y can do A - than that someone is a bigot.
Specific example:
Targeting civilians is wrong anytime anywhere. Even if the victims are Jews. (Unfortunately, I know some of the Participants in this forum disagree with that statement.)
Perhaps you're right, and the idea that everyone should be equal under of international law is indefensible. As a progressive person, I do hope it's not.
"You might think you're defending a country under attack, you aren't, and you don't have a convincing argument."
Maybe it will be more convincing if someone will fire mortar bombs and rockets on your house, every day, for eight years.
If that happens and you will sit quietly and do nothing, than I'll say: Wilber1, your moral values are higher than Israels.
"What I try to defend is the principle of UNIVERSALITY."
We can't do that, since the people in conflict here aren't remotely equal. Economically, militarily, politically, the amount of brute force they use as well as the financial and military assistance they receive from very powerful foreign powers. There is no universality if a country kills another group 20 to 1, and you defend the country doing the disproportionate killing. There is no universality if only one side is stealing the land of the other and forcing that group of people into economic slavery, especially if you defend those policies and ignore the effects of those policies on the weaker group. There is no universality if the more powerful group attacks the elected government of the weaker group, unless you're ok with Hamas bombing the headquarters (knowing they'll kill innocent civilians) of the major political powers in Israel. If you were for universality you'd be repulsed by Israel's actions, or you'd be ok with a huge increase in violence by Hamas against Israel, which I'm sure you're not.
"Maybe it will be more convincing if someone will fire mortar bombs and rockets on your house, every day, for eight years."
If that happened, and my side did to that group of people what your side has done to Palestinians, I might be mad, I might take the side of the aggressor, but I wouldn't be moral and I wouldn't have a good reason to act as Israel has. Israel is not in a position to give lectures on morals, in any way. I understand the emotional involvement you may have, but emotion itself, given the facts of this conflict, lead you to do nothing more than defend the indefensible. If you are under attack now, it will get worse. Maybe one day you'll try what the rest of the world and the Palestinians are calling for. It is at least worth trying, violence has obviously not helped people like you one bit.
Logic that states that all nations should be judged by the same rule, UNIVERSALITY, are NOT emotions.
It's my logic.
I would say the same thing if Rwanda and Zaire will go to war.