Trying to Redefine Role of US Military in Iraq
WASHINGTON - It is one of the most troublesome questions right now at the Pentagon, and it has started a semantic dance: What is the definition of a combat soldier? More important, when will all American combat troops withdraw from the major cities of Iraq?
The short answers are that combat troops, defined by the military as those whose primary mission is to engage the enemy with lethal force, will have to be out of Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, the deadline under a recently approved status-of-forces agreement between the United States and Iraq.
The long answers open up some complicated, sleight-of-hand responses to military and political problems facing President-elect Barack Obama.
Even though the agreement with the Iraqi government calls for all American combat troops to be out of the cities by the end of June, military planners are now quietly acknowledging that many will stay behind as renamed "trainers" and "advisers" in what are effectively combat roles. In other words, they will still be engaged in combat, just called something else.
"Trainers sometimes do get shot at, and they do sometimes have to shoot back," said John A. Nagl, a retired lieutenant colonel who is one of the authors of the Army's new counterinsurgency field manual.
The issue is a difficult one for Mr. Obama, whose campaign pledge to "end the war" ignited his supporters and helped catapult him into the White House. But as Mr. Obama has begun meeting with his new military advisers -- the top two, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are holdovers from the Bush administration -- it has become clear that his definition of ending the war means leaving behind many thousands of American troops.
One reason is that Mr. Obama is facing rapidly approaching, and overlapping, withdrawal deadlines, some set by the Bush administration and the Iraqis, and some set by him.
After June 2009 looms May 2010, 16 months after Mr. Obama's inauguration, the month he set during the campaign to have American combat forces out of Iraq entirely. Next comes December 2011, the deadline in the status-of-forces agreement to have all American troops out of Iraq.
To try to meet those deadlines without risking Iraq's fragile and relative stability, military planners say they will reassign some combat troops to training and support of the Iraqis, even though the troops would still be armed and go on combat patrols with their Iraqi counterparts. So although their role would be redefined, the dangers would not.
"If you're in combat, it doesn't make any difference whether you're an adviser: you're risking your life," said Andrew Krepinevich, a military expert at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, a research group. "The bullets don't have ‘adviser' stenciled on some and ‘combat unit' on another."
There are 146,000 American troops in Iraq, including service and support personnel. Gen. Ray Odierno, the top commander in Iraq, declined to tell reporters this month how many troops might remain in cities after the June 2009 deadline, and said the exact number still had to be negotiated with the Iraqis.
But some experts, like Michael E. O'Hanlon, a senior fellow in at the Brookings Institution, argue that roughly 10,000 American troops should remain in Baghdad after next June, with thousands more in other cities around the country.
For his part, General Odierno made clear that the Iraqis still needed help - and that the United States would hardly disappear. "What I would say is, we'll still maintain our very close partnership with the Iraqi security forces throughout Iraq, even after the summer," he told reporters.
Military officials say they can accomplish that by "repurposing" whatever combat troops remain. Officially, a combat soldier is anyone trained in what are called combat-coded military occupation specialties -- among them infantry, artillery and Special Forces -- to engage the enemy. But combat troops can be given different missions. From the military's point of view, a combat soldier is not so much what he is called but what he does.
For example, in an area south of Baghdad that was once called the "triangle of death" because of the Sunni insurgents there, a combat brigade of 4,000 to 5,000 soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division has been replaced with what the Army calls a transition task force of 800 to 1,200 troops with the mission of training and advising the Iraqi Army.
"It's no longer Americans providing the muscle," Colonel Nagl said. "Now it's Iraqi patrols with a small group of American advisers tucked inside."
Either way, no one expects the American presence to end soon, clearly not Defense Secretary Gates. When asked by Charlie Rose in a PBS interview last week how big the American "residual" force would be in Iraq after 2011, Mr. Gates replied that although the mission would change, "my guess is that you're looking at perhaps several tens of thousands of American troops."
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72 Comments so far
Show Allals
1. I do not think getting out of Iraq &/or Afghanistan etc is ENTIRELY dependent on Obama. Each and every one of us has a role to play. Those of us who indulge in venting, etc on these blogs are at least subconsciously aware of our personal roles. It also depends on Congress and on each individual in Congress.
2. What do you call a co-dependent who is always trying to 'fix' their addict partner(s)?
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Answer: A Correctum.
For the Love of It
Happy Hanukkah, Merry Christmas and All That,
To Common Dreams and Dreamers,
azjoe.
TRAINERS , ADVISORS ( or advisErs as they now prefer ) am I having a flashback ?
With Gates with the maestro's baton, can body bags be far behind ?
Somebody please wake me up !
We will stay in Iraq longer than three years only if President Obama allows it. He is the commander-in-chief. The secretary of defense and every member of our armed forces must obey his command. It is therefore irrelevant what the secretary and the soldiers want. They can be only advisers. The buck stops at Obamna's desk. Given Obama's propensity to seek the easy way out (paying for the war in Iraq; domestic spying!)under the lame guise of "uniting the country" or "reaching across the isle" the outcome is quite predictable. He will cave in. It is called "pragmatism" by his adulators.
"It has become clear that [Obama's] definition of ending the war means leaving behind many thousands of American [combat] troops."
Obama's choice for Secretary of Defense, Robert Gates, says there will still be "several tens of thousands of American troops" in Iraq in 2012. That will be 9 years of occupation, and counting.
Obama's choice for Vice President, Joe Biden, thinks Iraq should be partitioned into three countries. That should insure another decade of U.S. occupation.
Where's the "change?" We'll now have a black man heading our killing machine? The neo-cons' war will become the progressives' war?
When you vote for the lesser evil, you still get evil.
And when you vote for purity you also get evil.
Send Common Dreams to the new White House!
Also, Don't give up on getting your views to Obama immediately now and once he is in. Give him some time and then if he ignores the reality of how the Central Banks control the international MIC (Federal Reserve is just one part) and the Bank of International Settlements is the Central bank of all the central banks including the FED, Well at least we will have tried.
Don't give yourselves defeatist reasons not to act, and give Obama a chance...he needs our help and we will see after 6 months if he wants our help.
The Fiat money system of the world has failed because of debt and the USA is the biggest Debtor... War has been the business of the Central banks for centuries and the military like the rest of the world is just beginning to get it too... so don't give up...there will be plenty of time for negativity when total chaos reigns. But for now it is time to turn our knowledge to effect change with your input into the Obama transition teams.
http://change.gov/page/s/hcdiscussion
Cheers...
"And when you vote for purity you also get evil."
It's not too late to check into a mental institution. Tell them you're confused, and you might need a spring cleaning.
Redeploying linguistics, personnel re-classifications and murdering the English language were Bush's bailiwick.
Obama will navigate us out of this disaster, but raising the Titanic is gonna take a couple of weeks, a team, and it is coming together.
He is so smart.
Yes, Obama is very smart and speaks extremely well, but he's up against an entrenched "military/industrial complex" bureaucracy. Even if his crew is the best, it will take longer than a "couple of weeks". Let me list a couple of huge handicaps:
1. After September 11, airline crews with Arabic and Islamic sounding names like Hussein were not allowed to fly to the U.S. from at least one western country I know about.
2. Barack Obama would probably not have been security cleared to take up any of the higher positions in either military or intelligence that he will be commander over as President.
Both 1. and 2. indicate the high levels of suspicion he might have to deal with from the generals and top spooks if he repeatedly doesn't do what they want. Just imagine then, if Obama tries to dismantle any of the U.S. world wide military empire, what immense internal resistance he will face from the military, let alone from the dependent industries and local communities.
On Obama's side, however, is the argument that maintaining the empire is sending the U.S. broke.
.
Jan, you describe The Divide well. About 90% of the population, Us, Against that ugly other 10% that have stolen America Blind and fueled a vicious MIC.
The fascinating question yet to be answered is where is Obama going to take us. And you are right, it would take two terms, not two weeks.
And historically? Deep-Throat was an angry high level FBI cat, he helped ruin Richard.
And Daniel Ellsberg? He helped us, but was one of them.
Particularly one intel guy could step forward and bring down rows no Generals and Dick And George.
They look less strong out of their ******* uniforms.
Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukha, Peace.
Hanukkah!
.Chanuka....
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Ardee can they both be right? Or do you feel someone has to be wrong on this special night as well?
I would be honored to trade posts with you now and then. But we have in the past and they were negative, correcting each other. If they can be kind, that would be Great!
Personally I am endeavoring to keep my posts kind, I mean really, I say Happy Hanukkah, and you tell me I did it wrong?
.Not at all, just an attempt to be funny. Of course both spellings are acceptable.
Speaking of wrong, I see our new President in a far differing light than do you. Obama is no less in the thrall of the ruling class of this nation than was George Walker Bush, or William Jefferson Clinton for that matter. Any careful appraisal of his appointments, any noting of the slow but steady change of course between his entry into this race and his winning can leave little doubt.
Throw in his rushing back to Washington to pimp for corporate welfare and you have what should be a complete picture of a corporatist and centrist administration, one that will see little change of direction, or change in our foreign policy of war and usurpation.
If I was rude to you in the past,as you intimate, I apologize. A New York upbringing, no matter how far in the past, always shows itself.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Oh boy! A very good morning to you ardee. I just plain look forward to our exchanges. You are right, I am an Obamaphile, but if looked at as chess, not brawling, the supporting of respective opinions to responsive intellects is great.
Soon soon!
Truman fired MacArthur for similar insubordination during the Korean War. If Obama really is anti-war, he can fix this in short order. Evidently the first test of his Presidency will come from his own military instead of some foreign enemy. He's not being challenged by the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, the Pakistanis, or even Venezuela. He's being challenged by the US military and he should just fire Petraeus and Odierno if they even attempt to use semantics to keep troops in Iraq.
"He's being challenged by the US military and he should just fire Petraeus and Odierno if they even attempt to use semantics to keep troops in Iraq."
And of course this is exactly what has been in the MSM recently, the reclassification of "combat troops" to "trainers" or "advisors". Note also that little mention is made of all the mercenaries (Blackwater which has become a more or less generic term to cover others such as Triple Canopy, Dyn Corp and others all doing basically the same things) still in Iraq, a number almost as large as the actual military occupation forces. Are these considered to be "combat troops" or "contractors"? Semantics. The US may remove all "combat troops" and leave 300,000 "advisors" -- military plus contractors. And, as far as Obama starting new wars, he has said repeatedly he wants to expand the war in Afghanistan, and he was actually the first politician I heard speak of mounting attacks inside of Pakistan which occurred not long after his mention of same.
-- ekaton aka d.k.shaw
According to Paul Unger in "House of Bush House of Saud"...
There have been special ops raids on Pakistani soil for several years prior to the presidential primaries, even involving the FBI SWAT teams and CIA SPecial Operations Group raiding The Mujahadeen and Al Quaeda strongholds...
Although it didn't make the six'o'clock news...
notapacifist
Got this in my mail this morning.
Now it finally gets naked. We're really fighting for the same thing the same way as all the other conquistadores were.
Use the sword to control the land. Use the bible to "save" their souls, control their minds and justify every thing. Then apply capitalism and demockcracy to seal the deal.
It works. And, the right people get the power, the natural resources, the money and everyone is happy.
Aslong as the communion wine and kool aid last.
In other words, they will still be engaged in combat, just called something else.
Called something else, like homocidal liars?
George was the great decider and Obama will be known as the change breaker.
America leave Iraq? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! That's the funniest thing I've ever heard.
Have they left Germany? Have they left Japan? Have they left South Korea? Face the facts, guys and gals, Americans in high places think they should rule the world and what better way to do it than to occupy most of it.
Where's next? Now they haven't got a military foothold in Africa yet, at least not officially. There are lots of civil wars there that would give them a pretext to invade. Then Iran has a lot of oil too and it's claimed they have nuclear ambitions. And Pakistan is in turmoil and is ripe for picking off.
Choices, choices! It's not a question of 'if' but 'who'!
Join the Shoe Throwers!
www.dangeroucreation.com
Very concise and thorough. I'll certainly throw my shoes into that, and my boots and house-slippers as well. Socks are good too. Obama is a powerful politician but he obviously doesn't know much about science since he is advocating "Clean Coal" and Nuclear Power as parts of the answer to Climate Disruption. Or else he has been completely "bought", which means he can do nothing but sell us all "down the river". I don't have much hope for real change with Obama. I fear it will have to get far worse before he wakes up. I voted for Nader/Gonzales.
As to "semantics" ... I have a big problem with the word "troop" to mean a single "soldier". A "troop" means a "GROUP". The correct way to use the word "troop" in the singular sense is "trooper". It's simply more Corporate Cow Potty Pollution.
Corporate Propagandists have been tweaking our language (and our brains and our feelings and our souls) for a long time. They know that a confused 'victim' is more easily controlled. See, this is all about CONTROL. The more they can tweak our minds the more they can get away with, the more they can hide (at least for awhile, usually long enough to steal all the little guys' boots, straps and all, forgetting that they are dependent on all the little guys they are trying to control). The fact that they feel the need to hide indicates that they KNOW, on a gut-level and in their souls, that they are dead-wrong. The fact that they need to control indicates that they have no faith of any kind, that they have a pathological insecurity/PARANOIA/anxiety that does not allow them to LET GO. I think the reason they need to control is because they are LAZY souls. They are trying to convince themselves that the whole world must work for them, that they are "too good" to do their own work. They are astoundingly akin to drug addicts; they have allowed themselves to become parasites (parasites kill their hosts) but they keep trying to prove that they ARE the hosts. They are desperately in need of some intensive and long range psychological therapy. I suspect that they are desperately in need of love and compassion, that they have been deprived since early childhood.
The humongous irony is that they cannot ultimately control everything; their FORCED control will always backfire on them eventually, esp when they make a BU$INE$$ of torture and murder, but they continually kill their own markets and then wonder what went wrong (it's always someone else's fault AKA "projection" in the Jungian sense; the word "projectiles" also works well in this case). Ultimately, there is "Nowhere to Hide". "The people are going to know" sooner or later. The Corporatocracy does not even need Gitmo to torture: Overwork and Starvation and Homelessness and Pollution Dis-eases are torture and murder too. It's all part of what I call the "Interwoven Disaster Complex" (Psychological innuendos intended), or one could call it the "Military Industrial Media Idiot Complex" (MIMIC, because they are imposters, "Idiot" in the Greek root sense of the word, closely akin to Sociopath). This "complex" of their own making will kick them in the butt by its very nature because it is so out of balance with the forces of Life and of Nature, upon which we all depend; they cannot control Climate Disruption no matter how much they deny its existence or deny all responsibility. War is a gigantic contributor to Climate Disruption. Further irony: this war is largely about one of our BIG CO2 contributors, OIL.
"Crime is another name for need, or disease." ~Kahlil Gibran
The question is, What is this terrible need? The next question is How can this overwhelming need be satisfied in constructive and beneficial ways? I do not know the answers to these questions.
David
The U.S. in Africa according to Lobe on CD:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0509-10.htm
Also check "Africom" i.e. the U.S. Military Africa Command.
Then there are the clandestine involvements. A good research question would be "Which Anglo-American groups built up the military prowess of the Rwanda Patriotic Front which was formed in Uganda from Tutsi refugee youth?"
Or another good question "What was the role of the U.S. in supporting the RPF as it attacked Rwanda which was controlled by the majority Hutu dominated government?"
Another good question: "What was the role of the U.S. in the suppression of the prosecution of Tutsis in the Hague for their role in the Rwanda massacres?" Clue: Just read the book by the Hague prosecutor Carlo Ponti who resigned because of the pressure on her not to prosecute the Tutsis.
After the massacres the Tutsis took control of Rwanda with record financial backing. As the Tutsis are a clear minority in Rwanda, they haven't allowed anyone to claim any ethnic identity. From Rwanda the Tutsi controlled Rwanda Patriotic Army has repeatedly invaded and occupied the Congo over the years since the Tutsi run Rwanda has become a very solid Anglo-American backed ally; one could almost call them a mercenary nation. Millions of Congolese have died in those wars the RPF had caused with US and British backing.
Only now after a critical UN report, some Western countries are finally withdrawing support for the Tutsi government of Rwanda. For instance, the Dutch and Swedes are now withdrawing aid for Rwanda because of the UN report that Tutsi run Rwanda was backing so called "rebels" in the Congo. The "rebels" are in fact just part of the Tutsi run Rwandan Army. However, don't expect the Britsh or U.S. to stop supporting the Tutsi Rwanda regime as Anglo-America originally created Tutsi run Rwanda as a force to control East Africa. I believe there is some evidence around somewhere that this was all planned and initiated about 30 years ago by U.S. and/or British agents after the majority Hutus overthrew the Tutsis in Rwanda.
Jan, I'm desperately trying to hang on a shred of belief that America, or at least those who run the place, have some redeeming qualities. You don't make it easy!
I know America is up to its eyeballs in bribing and corruption as well as invading and occupying and I knew they were looking to establish a command in Africa but, fair dinkum, now I'm shattered.
How has a country that promised so much become so evil?
Most People don't know about these things and those involved are "just doin their jobs"
Now that the U.S. supported Ethiopian invasion of Somalia is ending because it failed, watch how the U.S. pursuit onto land of the Puntland based pirates leads to an American occupation of parts of Somalia...How conveniently those pirates are from a part of Somalia (Puntland) dominated by an American ally warlord. Notice how shipping from ALL nationalities was attacked thus ensuring a wide base of support in the UN for action against the pirates.
Since the withdrawal from Somalia after "Black Hawk Down", the US military has maintained various types of teams in various parts of the country...but of course they never called them "troops".
Pretty sad when we have to steal another country's oil, wouldn't you say? Sadder still to want to stay there, costing more lives and treasure, just so someone else doesn't get what we wanted to steal/
How sick has this country become?
als
The Big Irony of all this is that it would have been far more economical to simply BUY the oil like normal honest businessmen (and ladies as the case may be)!
The only time and way we'll be out of Iraq is when the West finishes sucking out the oil of Iraq's tits ! And by the way, we're not in a war but in an occupation in Iraq.
According to greg palast in Armed Madhouse...
The US military is in Iraq in order to KEEP the oil IN the sand in Iraq...
We invaded Iraq in 1991 to protect Kuwait who had given GHWBush and Zapata Oil exclusive off shore drilling rights back when he was just getting started in the oil biz... And to protect our interests in Israel and Saudi Arabia...
The OPEC cartel is controlled by the House of Saud, and protected by the House of Bush...
Which is why the Reagun admin armed and funded both Iran and Iraq to fight each other during the 1980's...
Although there are folks in the State Dept that want to end the Saudi Oil cartel... And opening the spigot of Iraqi oil would change the supply dynamic... the neocon civilians that Bush appointed to run the Pentagon (Rummy, Wolfy, et al) want to keep things the way they are...
Besides, all of the folks from Reagun and Bush admins, after cashing in their State and Pentagon connections in the private military sector during eight years of Clinton, were ripe and ready to retake the reigns of empire... to give sweetheart contracts to their Buddies for a new and improved era of war profitteering...
The OPEC Cartel was formed with the blessing of the United States Governmnet way back in the 1970's.
At that time most of the Governments in OPEC were run by US Backed dictators. The deal was made...You (OPEC) price and sell your Oil in dollars and we the US will make you very very rich.
By pricing OIL in dollars the United States Government could print money up at will as there would always be a demand for US dollars. This would then allow the US to fund her military expansion.
Watch over that period of time as new leaders in Opec came and went. It so very odd that any new ruler who started to look like he would break the deal and stop selling in dollars, was suddenly a despot or a supporter of terrorism.
Khaddaffi is no longer as "Insane" as Reagan claimed he was and as long as he keeps selling Oil in Dollars, Libya will be a country trying to mend its old ways and integrate itself into the world community. Iran the pariah now...and Chavez who has also speculated on selling Oil in Euros...
All it will take to turn the Saudis into a "Terrorist supporting nation trying to build WMDS" is for their Government to start selling for Euros or yen.
As to the price of Oil....yes create an artifical shortage...DRIVE the price up and the US can then PRINT more US dollars because the world now needs more US dollars to buy the same.
The flies in the ointment?
Iraq did not go as easily as thought..Russia is non OPEC and selling as Much oil as The Saudis and were growing quite rich off it. With US forces tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan..Iran feels brave enough to start up its own bourse and sell Oil in Euros.
The system is now out of whack because an OPEC no longer acts "In the Interests of America" and because Russias massive energy supplies just MIGHT be sold in Euros causing the whole scheme to crumble.
Putin.....hey he cant be dealt with...ex KGB you know!!
Thanks for the info. I guess that means the US is in control of Iraq until eternity. It would be nice if the Obama folks would prosecute the Bush gang to get things rolling but I won't be holding my breath. But on one note though, oil is used for most everything from fuel to manufacturing daily products including clothing, food, various plastics, etc ... I cannot see how much or how long they can hold all that oil back in the sand. Since the oil prices are artificially low, it won't be long before demand shoots back up.
We might as well get used to it. We will never leave the oil and we will never leave the bases that we have built. Even if the entire country is bankrupted several times over and our grandchildren grow up to be serfs.
The Iraqi people want us out. The American government, military and corporate structure want us to stay, permanently. To drive us out, the Iraqis will eventually begin attacks against American troops and make them as devastating and bloody as possible. They won't be throwing shoes. Then we'll see what Obama does.
"The Iraqi people want us out."
Yes, they want us out before 2011.
"The American government, military and corporate structure want us to stay, permanently. "
Wrong, Obama plans to leave before 2011.
Given that this is true, how can anyone say Obama is not respecting the will of the Iraqi people?
.Before 2011...So that shoe was supposed to remain in the air for a few years yet?
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
The Iraqi people have wanted us out for years. Their will has not been a central issue in this debate, unfortunately!
Iraq is not like Japan or western Europe after World War II. It is not like Korea at the end of the Korean War and the beginning of the Cold War. Iraq exists in a world that is over four decades past the end of the classic style of western imperialism. It's like Vietnam. The Iraqis want us ALL THE WAY OUT - troops, equipment, military bases and all vestiges of our culture. OUT! GONE! Even Obama wants to leave some footprint of America in Iraq. There is a large portion of the Iraqi population that will resist and resist fiercely. It's inevitable. What will Obama do in the face of that resistance? Is he thinking about it now, before it actually happens.
Obama wants to leave an embassy in Iraq (what's wrong with that?), but ZERO combat forces by 2011. OUT NOW is an irresponsible position.
There's nothing wrong with it if you're committed to keeping your head up your ass indefinitely. The "embassy" in Iraq is a multibillion dollar affair that is actually a city unto itself, where Iraqis are not welcome and the US has a forward base for projecting unlimited military power throughout the Middle East. We can't get out now because that military garrison embassy would be threatened, just as your own subjugation to authority would be.
1) It's obvious OUT NOW is impossible. You don't just take out 150,000 soldiers with all the equipment,etc., like moving from one apartement to the next at the end of the month.
2) ZERO combat forces... I don't know where you get that. The article and lots of others make it clear that as Gates said, "tens of thousands" will stay. Whether or not they're COMBAT troops is a semantic issue...not military.
3) Having embassies in other countries is normal. Having an embassy the size of Manhattan is called: OCCUPATION. Think of Irag as a huge plant, or...let's see... an oil refinery, and think of the US embassy as the control room.
the arch conservative Patrick Buchanan, regardless of what one might think of his politicis ("nativist") - correctly states:
"WE SHOULD LIQUIDATE EMPIRE....WE SHOULD GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF EMPIRE...WE SHOULD GET OUT OF THOSE LANDS......
BEFORE THEY KICK US OUT".
"we didn't like it when the Soviets were in our neighborhood......so what are WE doing in Russia's neighborhood?"
Rudyard Kipling "POET OF EMPIRE" , lamenting the loss of his son in afghanistan to "honor queen and empire" realizing the futility of empire:
"HERE LIES A MAN THAT TRIED TO HUSTLE THE EAST".
one day it will be:
"here lies an army that tried to hustle iraq and afghanistan and the middle east".
and it will have 'merican flags on it.........
The only way the present policy continues is if Obama allows it. I certainly hope he disappoints you folks that want it to continue.
.You are one tough cookie, Thomas, tough to get you to see that handwriting on the wall that is...I do not refer to "Mene, Mene Tekel Upharsin" either , that was an entirely different wall.
"Either way, no one expects the American presence to end soon, clearly not Defense Secretary Gates. When asked by Charlie Rose in a PBS interview last week how big the American "residual" force would be in Iraq after 2011, Mr. Gates replied that although the mission would change, "my guess is that you're looking at perhaps several tens of thousands of American troops."
It would seem that at least one member of this new cabinet intends for this war to continue. Or does several tens of thousands of our children in Iraq sound like peacetime to you?
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Obama won't end the illegal war, in fact he'll start others.
The blind fools who voted for him are just that, blind fools. But don't say that we Mckinney, Nader and Sheehan supporter didn't sufficiently warn you.
Tetti-tatti, who called Obama "McCain with a Tan" on CD is back. Insulting and degrading Obama supporters as always. Well, I am no blind fool. On Christmas or ever. But although I won't insult anyone on CD, I will point out factual errors and quote you all verbatim now and then, for example,
"Obama is McCain with a tan" tetti_tatti.
.Actually, "McCain with a tan" is kind of funny.
If it is accurate is something for an individual belief system. Tetti seems kind of frustrated, to be sure, but I don't blame him/her much....political debate is difficult at best, especially when every move by our President Elect seems conciliatory to the right while ignoring the hopes of those progressives who provided so much support.
.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Merry Christmas ardee, Funny is in the mind of the beholder. Personally, I find the crack repugnant because it reeks of rascism. But as Anais might appreciate, it does not seem to have hurt Obama too badly now has it? ardee, I think you dislike all things Obama so there is not much room for discourse. I see him has conciliatory to the right as you point out, but "every move?" Of course not, He is our best hope, AND part of the system too. The two are not mutually exclusive.
I'm sure I'll bring you around right quick here.
.You are, of course, free to try and "bring me around". That is why we are all here, is it not? ( excluding of course a certain few who only insult and disparage, play the martyr and call everyone else the enemy) As to that supposedly "racist comment", the only good thing about the election of Barack Obama is that we reached an important milestone in our race relations with his election.
Now if only we can get past the sensitivity about color....
Obama is certainly neither our only or even our best hope, and any hope one has placed in him should certainly be weakening daily with each new appointment to his cabinet, and each new milestone in reaching out to the right while ignoring the left..
I wonder how one can maintain hope in one who actively selected a bigot to give the prayer at the inauguration? But, we have four years yet to consider and measure our opinions against his future actions....Who knows, perhaps it is you that will be "brought around"?
Happy Holiday and best wishes for a progressive New Year.
We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Obama won't end the illegal war, in fact he'll start others."
You have no evidence of this, at all. Is it a "fact" he'll start other wars? Is that what you crystal ball is telling you?
Well, you're making it up. It is pure libel.
I think you maybe you want to see Obama fail. Is that really what you want?
Perhaps you should consider putting your ego aside, stop acting like a sore loser, and try focusing instead on what is our best chance for easing the suffering of the Iraqi people.
Obama is ending the war. Don't forget that.
Voting for Mckinney or Nader would never have worked.
We would now be facing a President McCain.
Do you recall what the difference was between Obama and McCain on the issue of Iraq?
McCain always supported the war and promised to expand it into "a hundred year war".
Obama always opposed the war, and is now doing everything in his power to end it.
The problem with you Nader-lovers is that you condemn anything outside your impossibly Utopian view of what America should be. No, Obama isn't perfect, no one is. But he is, beyond a doubt, the best President we've elected since Lincoln. Give him a chance. Give peace a chance.
Incredibly naive, since he hasn't had a hand at being president yet. Incredibly naive, because of the trend in policy reversals from his campaign days that he's already begun.
Can you even name a single policy Obama has reversed his position on?
He's *begun* them. Most politicians rarely cop to reversals, and Obama too will characterize his with "bringing policy into alignment with political reality" or other such cliche. There will be a lot of watering-down and splitting of hairs, as with the definition of "combat" troops. He'll claim that he never said that he'd increase taxes on the rich, merely that he'd let the old tax cuts expire. He might say that he never promised not to spread holdover economic and militarist idealogues throughout his cabinet, though the public can certainly be forgiven for being surprised at this development.
So you're asking the wrong kind of question. Definitive points at which reversals will be starkly illuminated will be rare. The media and the public will have to pay attention to the degrees and trends of his actual implemented policies.
All the things you say Obama "might say", he actually did say.
My point is that Obama is not changing his stripes.
Anyone who is surprised by his policies or cabinet picks clearly was not paying attention during the election.
.Do you have selective hearing,Joe? I have heard, and on several occasions, your new president speak to escalation of this so-called "war on terror" into Pakistan, increasing our military presence in Afghanistan as well, and continuing to maintain troops in Iraq. Just the simple fact of his retention of a politicized stooge like Bob Gates, one who was neck deep in Iran Contra, one who helped bring unreliable Intel to the CIA, telling the politicians what they wanted to hear rather than what was uncovered, should tell you that your assumptions of Obama's policies is way off base. Yet it doesn't, one can only wonder why....
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
ardee,
Nothing you have listed represent a reversal of his pre-election promises.
.The brain is a terrible thing to waste
"I was against this war from the very beginning. I made speeches against it while a nobody in Chicago. If elected I intend to end this war and bring our troops home." Barack Obama during the nominating process. ( obviously not direct quotes)
"We will have to keep troops in Iraq of course, and expand our efforts into Pakistan while redoubling them in Afghanistan." Barack Obama now.
Is this not a reversal or is this now the Twilight Zone?
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
"Is this not a reversal or is this now the Twilight Zone?"
Nope, ardee, you just haven't been paying attention.
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/iraq/
http://www.barackobama.com/2007/08/01/the_war_we_need_to_win.php
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/07/obama.pakistan/index.html
Maybe you should bother to use Google a little more before you write things like,
".The brain is a terrible thing to waste"
BTW periods belong at the end of a sentence.
.Speaking of brains...
The links you graciously provided, which each one, proves the point I made originally, or fails to deal with them, are puzzling when coming from one who attempts to prove otherwise....I pay damn close attention, but, unlike you apparently, I am giving my attention to this reality,Joe. If you want to descend into a snarky battle of wits, well, I would suggest that you need better armament.
Periods, in the context of a forum's software, can also be used to create spacings. Those who comment upon syntax instead of issues deserve little in the way of honorifics about their mental abilities. You are a very odd duck, your politics is so absolutely naieve and rooted in unreality as to make me wonder as to your motivation here. Perhaps you are simply doing the best you can....
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
.Addendum:
What, I wonder, happened to THIS guy:
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama%27s_Iraq_Speech
←Wikisource:Speeches Against Going to War with Iraq (2002)
by Barack Obama
Delivered on Wednesday, October 2, 2002 by Barack Obama, Illinois State Senator, at the first high-profile Chicago anti-Iraq war rally (organized by Chicagoans Against War in Iraq) at noon in Federal Plaza in Chicago, Illinois; at the same day and hour that President Bush and Congress announced their agreement on the joint resolution authorizing the Iraq War, but over a week before it was passed by either body of Congress.
Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.
The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil. I don’t oppose all wars.
My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton’s army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.
I don’t oppose all wars.
After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration’s pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.
I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.
What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income — to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.
That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear — I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.
He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.
So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.
Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance, corruption and greed, poverty and despair.
The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not — we will not — travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Where the change, ardee?
Please just one example...
.None so blind as those who will not see. I would suspect that you are the only one on this forum who fails to see, or at least fails to admit, that Obama has changed his position on the war from 2002 to the present.
Perhaps you are really as intellectually challenged as you seem, but I suspect that you are just another agendized poster for whom truth is secondary to opinion. I have posted a link to his original position from 2002, if you claim to see no difference between that speech and his position to date then you are either an outrageous and clumsy liar, or worse. No further communication is necessary on this subject, unless of course you simply must get in the final word. Have at it, if you must, but know full well that you have embarrassed yourself in public yet again..
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Hey we got the oil we came for. Are we going to let others have it?
As rapidly as the US and global economy are melting down, reducing military spending will accelerate the economic meltdown and slow down the transfer of wealth from the 98% to the 2%.
The best congress money can buy understands this, why don't you?
.I would urge you to consult a source of economic knowledge or two. Most economists are of the same opinion in that military spending returns the least to the economy of any government expenditures. Thus a reduction in such spending would see a greater share of our tax dollars going to benefit our economy.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
I don't understand your reasoning that cutting military spending will accelerate the economic meltdown. What sort of perverted logic is this? 30-40% of the US military budget is "black", i.e., hidden expenditures for classified projects. This is money that actually does not much benefit Americans or American industry. (http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174884). And we are not even considering the "defense money" going to DoE to maintain stewardship of our nuclear arsenal or the 10s of billions the State Department distributes in military aid to such nations as Israel, Egypt, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and other Persian Gulf countries.
It stands to reason that money NOT spent on the military can be spent on more needy areas of the US economy, like a bailout package for Detroit and a New New Deal.
Sadly, "Operation Jive and Shuck" will continue under different auspices.
(didn't someone once say that we'll leave Iraq when the oil runs dry?)
Dr Wu, the last of the big-time thinkers
Forget about the current or the upcoming administration's talk about Iraq -- in this particular case, there won't even be a difference between the two administrations, since Robert Gates stays on.
Instead, take a look at the real historical practices of the U.S. around the world: have the U.S. troops left Japan, the island of Okinawa, South Korea, or even Germany? And it has been more than sixty years since they got there (fifty-five years in the case of Korea, to be precise). Given this history, the chances that the U.S. will leave Iraq of its own accord, of its own free will, are nearly nil. True, the U.S. did not stay in Vietnam, but that is so because it got kicked out militarily.
"True, the U.S. did not stay in Vietnam, but that is so because it got kicked out militarily."
I do not believe this to be true. True, the US was getting it's butt kicked, and the Vietnamese would have fought until every last one of them were dead, but the US left because of US public opinion and the abject failure of compulsory conscription during a losing war.
The two causes need not be mutually exclusive. I did not say that the cause I was invoking was sufficient to bring about the withdrawal of the U.S. military from Vietnam; I left that open. However, it was certainly necessary. One may indeed wonder, in view of the general tendency in the U.S. military's behavior since World War II, whether the protests would have been as effective as they were, had the U.S. military been in a situation of winning in combat.
.I wonder at the thought of our military or our government actually caring about or responding to the wishes of the people. Undoubtedly the demonstrations had some small effect, but I believe, had this nation been winning that war, all the demonstrations in the world would have mattered little.
I wonder what you base your opinion that conscription was a failure upon. Sure a few went to Canada but on the whole, you got drafted and you went. Well you did if you were poor and black anyway.
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We see things, not as they are, but as we are.
Anais Nin
Sorry Ardee, I am only realizing now you had already made the point I just made in response to Ardee.