A reasonably evenhanded biography of Barack Obama, published last year, describes him as "an exceptionally gifted politician who, throughout his life, has been able to make people of wildly divergent vantage points see in him exactly what they want to see." The biographer, David Mendell, reports that "the higher he soared, the more this politician spoke in well-worn platitudes and the more he offered warm, feel-good sentiments lacking a precise framework."
Now, less than four months before Election Day, with growing disquiet among significant portions of Obama's progressive base, the current negative reactions can't be dismissed as potshots from the political margins. Even the New York Times, in a July 4 editorial headlined "New and Not Improved," has expressed alarm: "We are not shocked when a candidate moves to the center for the general election. But Mr. Obama's shifts are striking because he was the candidate who proposed to change the face of politics, the man of passionate convictions who did not play old political games."
But on July 8, Obama made a valid point -- even if it wasn't exactly the point he was trying to make -- when he disputed "this whole notion that I am shifting to the center" and argued: "The people who say this apparently haven't been listening to me." Overall, his career as a politician has embraced conciliation and compromise rather than pushing against centrist corporate agendas.
These days, an appreciable number of Obama supporters are starting to use words like "disillusionment." But that's a consequence of projecting their political outlooks onto the candidate in the first place.
The best way to avoid becoming disillusioned is to not have illusions in the first place.
The more that spotlights move from Obama's uplifting eloquence to his specific policy positions, complete with loopholes and wiggle room, it's predictable that some of his progressive base will become displeased -- whether on issues related to the death penalty, fair trade, government funding of religious-based projects, Iraq, Iran, evenhandedness between Israel and Palestinians, gun control, or (perhaps most flagrantly) warrantless surveillance.
On Wednesday, when Obama cast a vote in the Senate to undermine the Fourth Amendment, he fulfilled his frequent prediction during the primary season that "I will make mistakes." This was a very big one. As an attorney who's well-acquainted with constitutional law, he participated in damaging one of the most precious provisions in the precious Bill of Rights.
Barack Obama is an extremely smart guy. And I can't remember a major contender for president less inclined to insult the intelligence of the public. Let's return the favor by directly challenging him when appropriate. We'd do him -- and the Obama campaign, ourselves and the country as a whole -- no favors by opting for silence instead.
We can help the Obama for President effort when we hold him to his good positions -- and move to buck him up when he wavers.
While speaking of the Iraq war, Obama made one of the most insightful statements of the primary campaign: "I don't want to just end the war; I want to end the mindset that got us into war." He needs to be held to that wisdom. Obama should feel enormous counter-pressure from the grassroots against the forces in the media and foreign-policy establishment that are pushing him to go wobbly on ending the Iraq war.
The vortex of what Martin Luther King Jr. called "the madness of militarism" is enormously powerful -- and, in the context of presidential politics, routinely enticing. To the extent that Obama gears up anti-Iran rhetoric that he seemed to have mercifully abandoned months ago, for instance, he may reassure some pundits and other influential power brokers in Washington, but at the same time he's liable to weaken some of the allegiance to his candidacy among progressive constituencies.
As an elected Obama delegate to the Democratic National Convention, I've been hearing from people who are upset by the recent direction of the campaign. Some were always a bit skeptical of Obama but are becoming much more so. Others have been strong supporters from the outset. In the latter category, an attorney sent an email to me a few days ago: "I must confess that my enthusiasm for Senator Obama has waned in recent weeks with a number of his policy announcements (on FISA, gun control, etc.). While I of course will vote for him and help him get elected, I must say that I feel a bit deflated after having put so much hope, effort and money into his candidacy."
Obama and his top advisers will have to gauge the importance of such deflation and waning enthusiasm. A key factor in the election will be the extent to which the Obama campaign can pull off a massive mobilization of voters. Deflated constituencies don't mobilize as well as inspired ones.
Anyone who assumes that Obama will be elected president in November is on ground as solid as the assumption in 2000 that Al Gore would be elected president. On July 9, when releasing new results from nationwide polling, the Democratic research outfit Greenberg Quinlan Rosner reported that Obama has a mere 4-point lead over John McCain. Despite its propensity to spin for Democrats and its eagerness to note that Obama seems "well-positioned," the firm acknowledged "some diminished enthusiasm for the presumptive Democratic nominee and only small gains among independent voters."
Some progressives, now disaffected, might consider the prospect of Obama falling short on Election Day to be his problem, not ours. But this isn't about Obama. It's about whether the levers of power in the Executive Branch, and the Supreme Court along with it, are going to be redelivered into the hands of the right wing for yet another four years.
We're facing the historic imperative of keeping McCain out of the White House. If major progressive change is going to be feasible during the next several years, defeating McCain in November is necessary. And insufficient. The insufficiency does not negate the necessity.
Under a McCain presidency, we'd be back to the square one where we've found ourselves since January 2001. Putting Obama in the White House would not by any means ensure progressive change, but under his presidency the grassroots would have an opportunity to create it.
Along the way, let's strive to eliminate disillusionment by dispensing with illusions. No one who is a presidential candidate can proceed to overcome corporate power or the warfare state. The pervasive and huge problems that have proved to be so destructive are deep, structural and embedded in the political economy. The changes most worth believing in are the ones that social movements can make possible.
Norman Solomon's books include "War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death." The documentary film of the same name, based on the book, was recently released on home video. Solomon is a national co-chair of the Healthcare NOT Warfare campaign.
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267 Comments so far
Show AllH2O, you need to come up for air every now and then.
What you just said - "- destroying the village to save it never made much sense to me -", is exactly what a Nader vote does, when he has no chance to win.
Check out the new articles on netroots here on CD, that's what I'm talking about when I say we need a plan.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/18/10439/
I guess things are getting a bit heated here aren't they?
Truthie - that was a very interesting piece you wrote on your experiences with the Greens. I must admit that I am in agreement with most, if not all of their platform, but I am vehemently opposed to their "safe state" strategy. I think it is a recipe for defeat by capitulation.
MikeBin - in NY you cannot vote in the Dem. primary unless you are reg. in the party. And I might as well let you know that I guess you can add me to the list of the ugly head Naderites. Nader doesn't just raise his head every 4 years, it's just that that's the only time the media pays any attention to him.
Truthie - I voted for Nader in '96 (post Clinton's NAFTA), in '00 ( free trader Gore), in '04 (pro war Kerry) and will probably do so again - or McKinney, but the Greens have to abandon "safe state", what that says to me is that this is about party building and fund raising, not about principle. There is a Green candidate running in NY 25CD and I support him, not because he is a Green, per se, but because he stands for the principles I believe in and has a long record of doing so.
In answer to MikeBin's "where's the plan" - mine is quite simple - vote for the progressive candidate, whatever party (s)he is in. This will only be a problem where there is a choice of progressives, and, sadly, we don't seem to have too many places where that is an issue. I do not think you need a party to run from - sure you need some money and some (wo)manpower but I think Truthie's observations about what can happen when you get tied up with any organization that entails hierarchy and power plays and all that other stuff illustrates all too clearly how easy it is for any organization, no matter how well intentioned in the beginning, to get hi-jacked. The Dem party itself is a pretty good example of that. I must confess, I do not understand the suggestion that one should vote Green principles on the local level then abandon them at the national level. The idea that one needs a "strategy" beyond that of simply telling the truth and standing for what's right (as opposed to the Right) is what got us in this mess in the first place. And the oh so sad fact of the matter is that if all the people who want healthcare for all and out of Iraq and defense of the Constitution just voted for the candidate who stood for those things, we would have them by now. It's this party loyalty and campaign strategy and all this other stuff that in the end doesn't amount to a hill of beans that is what is getting in the way.
I suppose this puts me in the "hopelessly naive" or "fool" or, I guess in this case, "ugly head" category. But I have been around long enough to know that any fight worth winning is worth winning well, that, in the end, tempting as it may be, throwing your principles under the bus for the sake of "victory" will only produce a Pyrrhic one - destroying the village to save it never made much sense to me - and that the only way to get what you need is to support it, fight for it and, yes, vote for it.
So, I understand the concern about Nader being a one-man party, but once you stop getting hung up on the sanctity of party, any party, then it doesn't matter. Our task is to raise up others like Nader, or Kucinich in any or no party who stand for the things we believe in and put them in office where they can help take this country where it needs to go.
Those who are desperate can't help hoping, even when they know they're just grasping at straws. The idea that Obama rapidly "moved to the center" is questionable, given that he has embraced a full range of goals consistent with the right-wing agenda. This would indicate that Obama raced to the right (after winning the primaries), not the center.
For me, there is one issue that clarified just who Obama is, as a politician. He crowed about taking the lead in pushing welfare "reform", which (he said) moved 80% of recipients "from welfare to work". At best, this is wildly misleading. These policies come with a strict time limit on the sub-poverty level aid. Upon reaching the time limit, the person/family is simply removed from the rolls and no longer receives even meager aid. The state then "assumes" they moved on into jobs. (Note: Some are able to access services necessary to become self-supporting,
but most are not. Cases are simply automatically closed upon reaching the strict time limit on aid.) Obama doesn't mention that the primary achievement of workfare has been to create a massive, growing pool of super-cheap/no rights labor, filling a corporate demand for temp help and replacement workers (at a fraction of the wages of former workers). These policies in whole have harmed the poor-to-middle classes, solely for the benefit of the rich.
Truthie, start walking around the street, and in Wal-Mart, and ask strangers, "Who is Ralph Nader, and what does he stand for?"
You'll soon find out that you and Ralph are the only ones who have a clue about who, and what you think he is!
Truthie, Nader, you, and the rest of the Naderites raise your ugly heads just before the two-minute warning every four years, not in time to plan and organize anything other than a losing strategy for Nader, the Green Party, the Democratic Party, and a win for the Republican Party. You're bad seed Truthie. Nader endorses John Edwards in the primary. Nader takes MONEY and organizational support from the Republican Party. If you or Nader were serious, you would spend some time planning and organizing during the other three and a half years.
WHERE'S THE PLAN TRUTHIE?
WHERE'S THE ORGANIZATION TRUTHIE?
WHERE'S THE MONEY TRUTHIE?
Nader is nothing more than a windbag and a spoiler, and you are even worse!
MikeBinSC wrote: "Truthie, you and your comments are ridiculous. You are just another loudmouth with no plan and no organization."
That is because you don't listen to the facts. In that context there is no wonder why my statements seem outrageous to you.
I point out the Donkey Party is in hock to the owning class twice as deep as the Republicans and you don't dispute the facts much less argue point.
I put out the depths of illegal treachery the Donkey Party will sink in order to stop a candidate that undermines their position by speaking to the long neglected needs of the citizenry. And again you say nothing.
You are the Left's version of Major Frank Burns. When someone enters into a disagreement with you and presents facts that don't jibe with your version of reality you refuse delivery. Instead you replace reasoned argument with blind loyalty to a party that threw the agenda of the people overboard 30 years ago.
There is no point in arguing with you from fact and points of reason you are impervious to facts and in most respects indestructable. You are like the minnions of antiabortion activist that chase around after the likes of Randall Terry Jeff White and Jerry Falwell. Both have little more than your blind allegience to support your beliefs as such you are easily lead astray.
Regarding lesserevilism the overriding fact is lesserevilism is at best a philosophy of arguing for a padded jailcell. I want my freedom and nothing less will suffice. I don't want my death made more comfortable with a Liberal's Sedative.
As to "a plan" you show off your liberal colors. If "the plan" could only be served up like a latte at Starbucks I could buy an Island in the South Pacific. Learn what justice is. Learn what injustices have been perpetrated on the world and it's citizenry and then go into action and organize your community. As to candidates in the quadrennial event there are a couple of good ones. But you won't get anywhere voting for one of two different flavors of status quo just because it can win, you will just get more of the same. The only candidate I see worthy of my time is Nader.
In one respect it's ashame that Nader's following of liberals abandoned the movement after 2000. Had they stuck with him and supported him in 2004 Nader's Vote Total would have easily equalled 2000 which would have given him the power to extract a Single Payer Healthcare System. Instead HR 676 became another cruel hoax that never made it to the floor of the House despite getting 88 Cosponsors. Yep just another in a long list of sellouts by the Donkey Party. How many more times must the Donkey Party betray you before you understand they will never deliver on the empty rhetoric they promise ? How many more times will you watch a Michael Moore Documentary in the 3rd year of the quadrennial cycle and really think things will change this time ? You do know that HR-676 was not renewed this year ? How many more times will you read books like Norman Solomon's "War made easy" and really expect the Iraq War will end if our guy is elected ? The fact of the matter is it isn't just the Donkey Party that is the problem here. It is the misleaders like Norman Solomon, Michael Moore and Katrina Vandenhuevel that jump up and down for 3 years expousing an agenda that serves the people. And in the process they garner the allegience of those who identify with their message selling books and DVDs to line Solomon's and Fatso's pockets. Then Norman Solomon has the temerity to write an essay chiding us for having unrealistic expectations ? WELL WHO SET THOSE EXPECTATIONS NORMAN ! AND WHO DOES THE ABOUT FACE ON THESE ISSUES WHEN VOTING SEASON STARTS ? Who is the only person who stands up for Single Payer when it counts ? Ralph Nader Who is the only person that stands up for repeal of Taft-Hartley when it counts ? Ralph Nader The only person who stands up for an aggressive crackdown on Corporate Crime and Corporate Welfare when it counts ? Ralph Nader
Now some may ask if Solomon is such a Donkey Party Suckup why does he cheerlead for them for all four years ? The answer to that is obvious. No one would pay attention to him. The first three years recruits the flock and the fourth year funnels their votes into the Donkey Party. Well Norman the Liberal Con Game is over !
While it may be important to vote for Nader this year it is far more important to identify and round file the Liberal Misleaders who do a far bigger disservice to the people of the country than the Big Bad Republicans they claim to oppose.
"Putting Obama in the White House would not by any means ensure progressive change, but under his presidency the grassroots would have an opportunity to create it."
What a complete crock of bullchips: the former "grassroots" are a little compromised by that total-surveillance thing (that Obamessiah supported).
Spoken like a Wiley author.
CD has become overpopulated with a bunch of whining, self-righteous, holier-than-thou purists, as out of touch with reality as the Bush administration. Your arguments, that only seem to revolve around "lesserevilism", remind me of those really strange monks who won't walk around without closely inspecting the ground before each footstep, lest they might step on an ant or some other insect.
I'm not criticizing the monks, as they have chosen that as a way of life, it's just that none of you are really that deeply invested in your beliefs. You need to come up with some ideas and plans that will make things better or STFU!
SHOW ME A PLAN!
Truthie- "I am a Forward ever-backwards never person. I AM FINISHED WITH THE GREENS."
On this point we agree, you ARE EVER-BACKWARDS!
Truthie, you and your comments are ridiculous. You are just another loudmouth with no plan and no organization.
WHERE'S THE PLAN TRUTHIE?
WHERE'S THE ORGANIZATION TRUTHIE?
WHERE'S THE MONEY TRUTHIE?
YOU'RE NOTHING BUT FOUL SMELLING HOT AIR TRUTHIE!
MikeBinSC wrote:"Truthie, H2O, go to this link and register Green online -"
You're talking to the wrong guy dude. I was involved in the formation of the Green Party of California. Spent countless weekends convincing people to register into the party. Experienced first hand the treachery displayed by Donkey Party Goon Bob Mulholland as they tried unsuccessfully to spike the registration drive. Then I saw the Greens rise to prominence quickly and just as quick Mulholland and his greaseball Democrat friends began to infilitrate the party starting in 1998 through his surrogates like Medea Benjamin. By 2002 everyone was in place and in a display hubris not seen since the days of Richard Daley subverted a convention to defy the will of party rank and file who voted overwhelmingly for Nader by coronating David Cobb. After the 2004 convention I ceased participating in any Green Party functions until this past winter when Nader came to town to participate in a Green Party forum. Still skeptical I followed Nader through out the winter and spring. Shortly there after Nader foreclosed on seeking the Green Party Nomination choosing endorsement. Nader showed a stroke of geunious when he tapped Matt Gonzalez to be his VP runningmate. When Matt, another Disillusioned Green, subsequently decided to reregister Decline-to-state I recognised the plug had been pulled on the life support system that kept the Greens alived and reregistered myself.
I am a Forward ever-backwards never person. I AM FINISHED WITH THE GREENS.
Most of the people that worked so hard to find and build-up in the CA Green Party in the early years are long gone. And when someone left they never came back. There are a few diehards left but they have been marginalized and pushed to the fringes. Their effect on the operation of the party is insignificant. The people running the Green Party now are Democrat Apparacheks whose only goal is to render it and the people in it totally ineffective. Yes, the Green Party today is nothing more than a repository for disillusioned and disaffected Democrats where they can be watched and their actions kept in check.
H20 that is why MikeBinSC grovels for you to join the Green Party.
H2O, you can't win without party organization, that is why you should register Green. You can still vote in the primary of your choice regardless of registration. I actually voted in the Republican primary this year, in an attempt to remove the incumbents and and make it easier for the progressives to defeat them in November.
MikeBin.
Don't need to change my registration to vote progressive. In fact, prefer to stay reg. Dem so I can vote for progr. Dem in primary. It's my vote, not my reg., that carries weight.
I do think that what is causing major, if not fatal, damage to progressive success at the polls, however is your qualifier "with a shot at winning". If you abandon the progressive and convince others to do the same because he/she has "no shot", you guarantee that outcome. For some reason that concept seems to be a hard one to get across and I don't know why. The only candidate that has "no shot" is the one you don't vote for ....
Thanks Kate, I'm for voting for any progressive candidate with a shot at winning regardless of party, and I would like to see the Dems quit treating progressives like the proverbial "Red-Headed-Stepchild".
MikeBinn,
Thanks for all your posts. I acknowledge the effort that goes into them.
Tomorrow evening the progressive wing of our county Dem. Party will challenge the agenda at a meeting which purpose is: to work jointly through strong communication and coordination to elect Democrats in congressional, state and federal races this November.
We will ask to change "democrats" to "the best candidates."
So some work from the bottom up; some work from the top down.(And many work outside an overt political frame.) Maybe we'll all meet in the middle, and that would be like discovering fire for the first time.
Adelante!
Truthie, H2O, go to this link and register Green online -
www.switch2green.org
Then check out the article and comments here -
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/07/13/10321/
MikeBin
Let me try this another way:
I agree that it would be very nice to have decent progressive officials at all levels of government, but waiting for that to happen before we support progressives at higher levels is rather like Bush's plan to wait to address auto CO2 emissions until we get hydrogen fuels. We ain't got time for that.
Oh dear! Another "safe states" strategy being advanced. Exactly what the Dems want; "Let you outraged progressives safely blow off some steam in states where your vote won't threaten us, but heaven forbid, don't you DARE vote progressive in a state where WE might actually have to BE progressive in order to win!"
All you folks out there who actually want the Dem party to become a decent home for progressives had better understand that only by denying them the vote when they fail to be so, will you ever get there. That is how the Right Wingers got the Reps.; by sticking to their guns. Blaming guys like Nader for "stealing votes" works for awhile, but even rank and file Dems who bought that nonsense before and are still mad at Ralph are getting pretty TOd at the Dems. It amazes me that they have taken as much as they have; no doubt there are some who are genetically Dem, but of those who are Dems out of principle, the Party may well be pushing them a little too far.
I am a regis. Dem but only vote that way if the candidate is progressive - on the occupation, on healthcare, etc. and I have let them know that on every solicitation they send me - "No single payer, no out of Iraq, no out of WTO from you, then no money, no support and (most importantly) No Vote from me, period." At this point, it is clear that, under these circumstances, the Dems obviously do not WANT my vote. Their paychecks from the corp. interests are apparently worth more to them than my vote so I will not give it to them. What they fear more than anything is that a lot of people may do what I am doing and have done in the past, so they must make sure that there is no candidate out there that people like myself can coalesce around as an honest alternative. It is harder to blame people who stay home for "stealing votes", but MANY more votes were lost to the Dems by those who stayed home than by those who voted for Nader. In both cases the Dems would have won more votes for themselves with a decent candidate, but a decent candidate requires decent views on healthcare, the war, trade, etc and decent views on those issues would jeopardize their corporate funds. They have made their choice, now I make mine. In betraying their "principles" (whatever they have left) they have betrayed me. My Dem. registration is not a promise of blind loyalty, my vote IS important, it is one of the few things I have left of real value and I will not give it lightly. It must be earned; Obama has not, Nader has. Sorry, the lesser of 2 evils is not good enough any more; it never was to begin with and hanging on to it for sooo long is what got us into this mess in the first place. Lest you think that I am a fool to believe that our votes are important, let me point out to you that the Dems think so to, otherwise they would not have gone through (and still are performing) their outrageous machinations to keep not only indep. progressives like Nader off the ballot, but even progress. within their own ranks, like Kucinich, "off the table" or the debate podium. A party that fears "Harry and Louise" more than Osama bin Ladin is not one I can support.
The "safe state" strategy is arguing for just another Pyrrhic victory. Folks, aren't you getting a wee bit tired of running around with a sign on your back that says "Go ahead, master, kick me again, I am not worthy of anything better". Remember the 'ole "you can fool some of the people all of the time .....". The lesser of two evils, the "spoiler" charge, the "safe state" strategy are all just different versions of the attempt to make sure that that "some of the people" stays large enough. Well I have joined the ranks of those who cannot be fooled all of the time, and I invite you to join me. The water is a bit chilly right now, I'll admit, but it's clean and potable and won't kill me. BOTH your Dems and your Reps, as currently constituted, will.
The argument that we must do whatever it takes to keep the "Gawd-Awful" Rep out of the White House is just a restated lesser of two evils argument. Folks argued that probably in '00 and certainly in '04 and where did that get you? By '04 Bush had already been exposed, Nader was at a nadir, but people had to hold their nose to pull Kerry's lever, so Bush, awful as he was even then still won and that time with more of the popular vote! (I realize we could get into a big long discussion about stolen votes here, but if you want to argue that they will all be stolen anyway then this whole discussion, and the election, are moot, so let us pretend, for the sake of the argument, that most of the votes, at least, are counted.) In other words, what you are suggesting - we've been there, done that, doesn't work. If we do that AGAIN - hold our nose and pull Obama's lever, guess what, we will be having this same discussion again in '12 - "Oh No this terrible Repub! Quick, pull this Dems lever! I know he's lousy but blah, blah." If there was any election that should have put to rest the fallacy of the lesser of 2 evils argument as a useful strategy it should have been '04. Sorry folks, even the most rabid Dems cannot credibly blame Nader for '04.
My concept is much simpler, a lot easier and we could do it right now for it doesn't involve entire party building or getting our "progressive" media to actually support progressive candidates (good luck with that one!) All it says is let it be known what you need and vote ONLY for the candidate that supports that, period. This leaves you free to support any party's candidate - as long as the candidate him/herself is progressive in his/her principles. Do this at all levels of government. Who knows, if we will just hang in there, stick to our guns and refuse to compromise on OUR basics (for me, healthcare, e.g., is definitely one, for you it may be FISA. etc) just as the Right Wing hangs on to theirs, we might wind up with the candidates of ALL the parties moving to the LEFT. (I know, I know that one is a bit far fetched, but hey, a little humor never hurts.) And above all, DO NOT ALLOW a party to blame an independent for its loss. The party must understand that if it wants to win, IT must come to us, after all doesn't it claim its "our" party? Well its way past time to prove it. Sorry guys, a "D" is no longer a passing grade.
MikeBinSC wrote: "I agree with your statement that, it should be obvious that any nominee who needs progressive votes in closely-balanced states has precisely one intelligent choice: don't support right wing legislation that predictably alienates that base, and as I have stated on other threads, his dumb-assed FISA vote may very well cost him the election, as it will certainly cost him millions of dollars in campaign contributions and working support.
I will still vote for Obama, but he has lost any contributions that I was going to give him over this, and the really sad part is, the bill didn't even need his pandering-to-the-right-vote to pass"
I have news for you.....6 million dollar's of the 154 million clams collected by the Obama for President Committee came from just 20 CONTRIBUTORS. ALL OF THEM BIG BUSINESS !!!!!!!
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
Do you think those are the only Business interests that donate to Obama's campaign ????? I would say it's a pretty safe bet to say the sum total of all of the John and Jane Doe Contributions to Obama's Campaign DON'T AMOUNT TO SPIT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nor is it a stretch to say all of the potential contributions withheld from Obama for voting for FISA will be OFFSET 5 no make that 10 no make that 50 no make 100 to 1 by contributions from businesses whose executives were let off the hook ! That's why he did it !
Your vote is worth far more than your money. It is a far more sensible action to send your money to Obama and cast your vote for Nader !
The underlying problem that progressives must address, is their impotency in a two party system. Progressives have been effectively corralled in the Democratic party, just as the religious right has been corralled in the Republican party. The good news is, both have been making loud noises about breaking free, but the bad news is, neither have the organization needed to do it successfully, and the efforts so far have been too little, too late.
Both are allowed to have candidates in the presidential election primary process, but the MIMIC (Military-Industrial-Media-Infotainment-Complex) decides who's message will be heard, by how many, for how long, and how those candidates will be perceived by the unenlightened masses.
They shut out the really progressive voice of Dennis Kucinich very early in the primary and then proceeded to mute John Edwards anti-corporate messge. The MIMIC has effectively chosen the two acceptable (to them) major party candidates for you.
Without a major organized "Internet Progressive Revolution", that I referenced in an earlier comment, we, and our progressive views will be used and abused for political gain. If the MIMIC is allowed control over the internet, the game is truly over.
While at times, it may not seem like it, but there is a big difference between the Dems and the Reps, as the last eight years should have convinced any sceptics. Are there MIMIC members in the Dem party? - absolutely! But we have some damned good progressives in it too - a lot of them!
I think that without a strong, united "Internet Progressive Revolution", it will be easier to take over the Dem party by keeping progressives like Kucinich in office and removing DINOs and replacing them with people like Donna Edwards. You don't want to throw out the "progressive baby" with the dirty bath water.
The progessives are a bunch of orphans in need of a home. The Green Party could be that home, with a lot of organization that no one seems willing or able to do, so until that happens, let's keep on ridding our current home of our malevolent foster parents!
Vote for Obama, McCain, Nader or Mckinney (I actually like Nader and McKinney), and we'll still see another 4 years of military agression abroad and class domination at home.
So we all agree Obama is a shit, but can't get anyone else elected to play Oval Office debutante queen this election. So what? We have spent too many years focussing on this "presidential" election crap as if everything hinges on it. There are a thousand other offices and avenues to political participation (to build viable third parties) that must be traversed before we can even think about breaking the Demo-Repug hold on the presidential election.
Unless new forces take over the DemoRat party (much like the neo-con / phony christians did to the old republicans), then third party building is the only way. Start now and keep going after the November election.
Personally, I live in Illinois, and have no fear my vote would help McCain get elected. I'll Vote McKinney or Nader. Use your best judgment, and use your time, talents and donations for new party candidates. I'll never send a nickel to another DemoRat.
MikeBinSC July 12th, 2008 4:40 pm
Thanks for the civil post. Little to add to what I said:
1) If progressives want nominees who "gover[n] at the left of" of the "realistically possible" (D.M. Green),they must hold the nominee accountable.
2) We agree O's not progressive - but, besides the vote (which alienates progressives not only because it is right wing, but because it suggests a 'we don't need you anymore' calculation), he has exploited the wiggle room of his statements - as any Democratic candidate not held accountable will.
3) Full accountability means a third party that provides or withholds votes for positions; short of that, though, individual acts must suffice.
4) Presumably you live in a swing state, otherwise why would you vote for Obama, especially now, if you're to the left of him: an Obama win with the greatest number of third party progressive votes would 'open up space' for him to move left, and close the wiggle room for excuses based on a supposedly centrist electorate.
abramawicz, I agree with your statement that, it should be obvious that any nominee who needs progressive votes in closely-balanced states has precisely one intelligent choice: don't support right wing legislation that predictably alienates that base, and as I have stated on other threads, his dumb-assed FISA vote may very well cost him the election, as it will certainly cost him millions of dollars in campaign contributions and working support.
I will still vote for Obama, but he has lost any contributions that I was going to give him over this, and the really sad part is, the bill didn't even need his pandering-to-the-right-vote to pass, and the bill, as evidenced by the Nation Magazine's lawsuit, may not even pass constitutional muster, and may be slapped down by the SCOTUS, unless another Neo-Fascist, right-wing justice, like Scallia, is appointed to the court by Bush II or Bush III.
But, his right-pandering vote on the bill that would have passed anyway, within months of the general election, is no reason for all the progressives to run out and commit suicide. Obama has never been a progressive - He has always been a centrist. Think about the future, it's too late to organize any alternative now, other than what I have decribed in the earlier comments. Hell, the people who oppose him on this blog can't even get together on another choice - they're shotgunning the field! And that is a recipe for disaster in November!
Mike B. in SC
I understand what you're saying, and I've heard other progressives say the same, i.e. the risk is too great to empower the republican party. I do find solace in the possibility that this time it can be different, because of new technology facilitating social organizing on a scale we haven't seen before and the growing access to independent media. It could translate to more people be actively engaging in civics on more levels other than just voting, and like you said hold democrats accountable.
If this fails, then at least it is all well documented and fresh in people's minds next time we go to the voting booths.
I was just reflecting on this thread to get some input, so thanks, and all the other posters who contributed. Its this kind of diverse discourse that I think develops a good progressive policy towards elections.
oncemanc July 12th, 2008 3:42 pm
"It should be obvious that any progressive who lives in a closely-balanced state has precisely one intelligent choice: voting for Obama."
It should be obvious that any nominee who needs progressive votes in closely-balanced states has precisely one intelligent choice: don't vote for right wing legislation that, predictably, alienates that base.
lizard July 11th, 2008 8:04 pm, jozef July 11th, 2008 8:30 pm
You folks from Vermont are indeed fortunate that the unique nature and history of your state has brought to the surface people like Senator Bernie Sanders, whom I assume you admire as I do. I wonder then what you think of the Senator's completely unequivocal statements on the Thom Hartmann program (somewhat paraphrased but faithful to his intended meaning), that:
he admires Ralph Nader's career;
he is totally against the Nader candidacy;
four more years of a Republican administration would be an unmitigated disaster,
in many states a vote for Nader is tantamount to a vote for McCain.
Unlike you folks, Senator Sanders has his feet on the ground and acts according to the world as it is, not as he wishes it to be. The United States isn't Vermont, and there is just isn't going to be a President Ralph Nader. It should be obvious that any progressive who lives in a closely-balanced state has precisely one intelligent choice: voting for Obama. Help McCain win if you want, but I guarantee you that if he wins you'll be condemned to standing on the sidelines yelping about how Republicans and Democrats are the same. There are plenty of Democrats who AREN'T the same (and we greatly outnumber the plague-on-both-your-houses crowd), so progressives who want to be constructive force instead of standing on the sideline throwing tantrums for the rest of their lives had better wake up and not waste their franchise making futile gestures just so they can feel good on election day – unless they would really enjoy feeling screwed later. If you don't trust my analysis, trust Bernie Sanders'.
RE: "SOMEONE...ABLE TO GOVERN AT THE LEFT EDGE OF WHAT IS REALISTICALLY POSSIBLE..."
...wrote David Michael Green in Obama apologetics several weeks ago.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/06/27/9925/
Bottom line: a "change" candidate like Obama will break commitments and move right only if enough voters signal they won't vote for him if he does.
Yes, Obama's not really progressive - his positions and statements give 'wiggle room' for shifts right. And yes, the right wing alternative is bad.
But politicians like Obama will always exploit the wiggle room unless they know they can't.
Every 'flip flopper' statement by McCain, and every false 'disillusioned' statement by Democratic centrists, and every article by good people like Solomon about the terrors of continued right wing rule make me want to support Obama. But...
I didn't vote for him before, and I won't now. Progressives: vote third party. Drop Democratic Party allegiance. Register independent or third party. Communicate to the Obama campaign why. Withhold your work and money.
If you're not in a swing state, this is easy, since you won't hurt the campaign anyway - but if you are in a swing state, your message will be more forceful.
Last: as I've said repeatedly, work for a third party - organization commitments (vs. pissed off individuals) are the only effective way to forge group positions and negotiate binding agreements with a candidate.
Since this thread is getting so long, I'm going to repost this for those who have not seen it. If you have already read it, skip to the next comment -
MikeBinSC July 11th, 2008 2:57 am
At least Retire Green has a plan, that's more than I can say for the rest of you pathetic losers who vow not to vote, or to vote for Nader, Barr, McKinney or any other, insert losers name here ________, candidate. Do yourselves a favor and just do a write in with your own name, as that is likely the only candidate that will satisfy you anyway!
WHERE'S YOUR PLAN?
WHERE'S YOUR ORGANIZATION?
No organization and no plan? - NO THANKS!
We may not make it to election day in November, much less four more years!
Show me a plan that can accomplish more good than keeping McSame out of the White House or STFU!!!
MikeBinSC July 11th, 2008 3:19 am
I am as angry about the waffling and compromising as the rest of you are, but you can't solve the problems we have by voting third party or write-ins in November. It's too late for that now and we have many progressive candidates in the Dem party, like Kucinich who need to be re-elected, and first-timers like Donna Edwards who will be replacing a DINO if elected in November.
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face! A McCain presidency will spell the end of America and the end of any chance of turning things around before it is too late. Anyone who is serious about changing the system must start organizing NOW!
IT'S ALL ABOUT ORGANIZATION
This is the only way progressives can hold Obama's and the Democrats' feet to the fire, and at the same time, create a viable third party, the Green Party, and make the progressive voice heard. It would take a massive amount of organizing and cooperation, but it could be done, and I would love to be able to vote for progressive people like Cynthia McKinney and even Ralph Nader knowing that my vote was not putting Bush III in the White House.
First of all you would have to organize all the progressive outlets on a common thread and around a common mission. By progressive outlets I mean websites, news sources, blogs, radio and podcasts, and print media. I'm talking about MoveOn, CommonDreams, TruthOut, BuzzFlash, DailyKos, HuffPost, AirAmerica, NovaM, DemocracyNow, The Nation, Mother Jones and all the rest! I'm talking about an Internet Progressive Revolution here! This can't be done on a piecemeal basis!
And here is the mission -
Get every single progressive Democratic voter to change their registration from Democrat to Green. Even if we got eveyone to do this, we would not have enough to win an election, so they can, and still should, vote Democratic in November, but we would be well positioned to make demands on the new Democratic power structure by threatening them with mass losses in the 2010 elections for the House and Senate, as the entire House stands for re-election every two years, along with one third of the Senate.
By 2010, we could make the Green Party a viable alternative if threats are not enough, and should we still need it. I would hope that we don't need it, as the time available to make a course correction to save this country, and this world, is growing very, very short. We are in that proverbial quandary of an irresistable force on a collision course with an immovable object, and it ain't gonna be pretty! The perfect storm of financial and economic failure, war without end, global warming, peak oil, food shortages, water shortages, resource depletion and dying oceans is bearing down on us at breakneck speed and the ship's crew is either asleep-at-the-helm, or as another commenter said, trying to figure out how to make us pay for the carnage with our tax dollars!
Mike B. in SC
EJMurphy414, you should never have had the illusion that Barack Obama was ever a progressive, I argued this point with others on this blog during the primaries. He has always been a centrist, just like the Clintons. All you had to do to know this was to listen to his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He told everyone, in no uncertain terms, that he did not see red states and blue states, he only saw purple United States, and everyone working together for a better America. But, that is still a far cry from what the Republican party is offering!
All of our progressive candidates in the Dem party were forced out of the contest long ago, and now we have what we have. But throwing your vote away and allowing Insane McSame to assume the Unitary Executive Throne of Bush's 43rd Reich is certainly not the answer.
GRomero, the idea of letting the country hit rock bottom under a Republican President is insanity, pure and simple. You are asking for a level of Fascism, Secret Police State, murder, mayhem and chaos, the likes of which, you can not even imagine!
H2O, your argument that apathetic voters stay away from the voting booth because they don't like either of the two parties candidates does not hold water. Third party candidates have been on the ballot in nearly every state, if not every state, for a long time now, but the apathetic voters never turned out, and they won't turn out this time either. They are tuned out to the whole political process and don't even know who the major party candidates are, much less third party candidates. Hell, they probably couldn't tell you who the VP is today!
We progressives have moved from enthusiasm to disillusionment in a very short space of months, as our adulated Obama has moved unerringly to the right. I predict a steady decline in the lavish cash contributions we have made, and a diminution in volunteers. I had honestly though he could be the greatest president since FDR; now I expect mediocrity and lackluster accomplishment. Sad, sad, sad.
The thought of "a speedy road to rock bottom VS a long, distilled death" of the country was always irking in the back of my mind. What to vote? What to vote? I'm in a blue state, CA, so I can vote for the Green, but I feel bad for those in red and swing states.
Does any of this drive anyone bonkers?!
I'm considering taking the position along with others here who say to let the country hit rock bottom hard and fast, reach critical mass, and hope that it might shock the population and other western countries into the a massive cultural revolution needed to rearrange the world order. The risk is that we might destroy the human species.
Once again. The only way to get the policies and programs that you want is to vote for them. That means voting for the candidates that support them. That does not necessarily mean that you will win. But not voting for them, i.e. voting for lesser than, DOES necessarily mean that you WON'T get what you need.
I can't help wondering if all the folks out there who use the "can't win" argument are deliberately undermining the chances of non-duopoly candidates, for surely it is clear that this argument does exactly that and only that. It does not advance the debate on the merits of the candidates or the issues, and if we don't do that then the process is nothing more than a chess game whereby each of the only 2 sides allowed on the board jockeys for position so its king is the only one left standing. Well this pawn is tired of being sacrificed.
Chess is a fine game, but it won't get me decent healthcare, it won't get us out of Iraq, it won't save our jobs, etc.,etc. For those of you who excoriate us who argue for voting on principle, ask yourselves - is it the principle itself you disagree with? Do you not want healthcare for all? Do you not want US out of Iraq? Do you not want your representatives to defend the Constitution? If you do want these things, then please stop bashing those of us who vote for the people who clearly support them and join us instead. If all the people, on this site, e.g., who support these principles but have become entrapped by the "can't win" argument would actually vote for what they believe in, the "can't win " would become the "hmmm, maybe we can". Perhaps the one useful thing we could pull from the Obama campaign would be his slogan.
If people continue to support Obama on nothing more than "Hope" even as he continues to throttle it soundly, why won't you support a much worthier candidate on that same basis? I'm sorry, I must be the simpleton here, but I really don't understand why people would vote for a candidate they don't really believe in, just because people with, apparently, an extraordinarily defeatist attitude say that the guy they would really like "can't win". If you don't vote for your guy, you help guarantee his loss. Do you not see that perhaps in using your vote, not to advance a true "friend", but only to defeat an "enemy", you are not only supporting the weakening of the Constitution, e.g., but undermining the whole concept of elections as a vehicle for ADVANCING our campaign for a better life and not simply holding the fort against the onslaught of the steady deterioration we have been seeing for decades? Do you not see that see that nothing of real worth in our society has EVER been gained by the "can't win" philosophy? Do you not see that it is ONLY when we follow and sign on to the lead of progressive "dreamers" that we actually make progress?
Lest I be labeled just another whacko, let me assure you I am deeply pragmatic - Has it escaped your notice that a very large number of eligible voters doesn't vote? The explanation is that they are lazy or apathetic. But I offer you another explanation and that is that large numbers of folk stay home because they correctly perceive that, in the areas that intimately touch their daily lives, neither of the two "major" candidates has anything of substance to offer and the lesser of two evils argument is simply not enough to get them to the polls. Offer them a candidate that is worth something, work for him/her, don't kill that candidate with the "can't win" machete and then see what happens.
I submit that the most deadly enemy of getting anything done is the "can't win" philosophy. Because it is, by nature, depressing it saps the will and becomes self-fulfilling. I come from a healthcare background and the idea that I would abandon a patient because his/her chances are miniscule is anathema to me. There are too many people out there who are walking around who wouldn't be if people in health care had played the odds. Once you actually see and understand that the "impossible" can and does become possible if only you will not give up and, dare I use the word, believe, then you will not succumb to the "can't win" philosophy any more. I have seen it, not only in the hospital but in the political arena. I know that the only guarantee of loss is not trying. It is not simply that we "need change we can believe in" it is, perhaps more importantly, that we must change our belief that we "can't win".
For fun I've just finished touring the top progressive blogs on the web. Rovites have penetrated all of them, including this one. I've seen exact "tracts" posted on various blogs, but under different user names, again including this one.
They are creating chaos and disruption, but most of all doubt.
They'll have a good laugh on election day when we welcome Bush to his Third Term.
Watchalo!
Ah, Truthie, how you love to preach, proselitize, psychoanalze,pummel and punish. My god! You must be right!
I am well aquainted with Ward Churchill. I have heard him speak. Have you? I am also well aquainted with Derrick Jensen through his writings in the Sun Magazine.
Resist,Truthie. Lead the way.
"People in these conservative, buybull thumping regions see folks like Nader and Kucinich as radicals. They believe that Kucinich et al want to outlaw prayer and guns, open state funded abortion clinics in every town and invite Osama over for coffee and donuts." So then, since the Electoral College corrupts the possibility of Nader and Kucinich winning any election we should roll over and say, "Yessa, Massa!". No way. And as for Nader and Kucinich "being a radical", well perhaps thumbers can be made to see that their Jesus was a big RADICAL and that Nader and Kucinich are closer to their Jesus than McCain or Obama are. The job is then the educate the "buybull thumpers" not capitulate to them. And oh, by the way, yet again, the "buybull" belters DID NOT elect George W. Bush. Gore won! How convenient to forget. It covers up yet another failure of the Democratic Party. Congratulations!
KateAlene: "Jozef,
"I voted for Nader against Bush. I got Bush. I don't need to do that again. (New Mexico)
"Your Nader vote, on the other hand, sounds like a safe vote. Go for it."
_
Actually, Gore won!
_
MattD: "These are the two choices we have for whatever reason. In the entire history of the country a third party has never won; and never will because that's just how America works." No. Not true. We have more than 2 choices. I know. I can read my ballot. Yes, a third party has never won, but why not. Because you and others have internalized this impossibility. YOU are the ROADBLOCK.
Obama tried three times to remove immunity from the fisa. He would be a better president than McCain. I would like to see President Nader, McKinney, or Kucinich, but it would be a useless vote. These are the two choices we have for whatever reason. In the entire history of the country a third party has never won; and never will because that's just how America works. They are physically unable to go over 20-30% because the majority of Americans like the aura of inevitability and respectability.
I was very mindful of the fact that when I voted for "Obama" that I wasn't voting for him. I was voting for his campaign workers and the closest thing I have seen to a cohesive progressive movement -- people organizing and envisioning a better world. They deserved to win so I did what I said I wouldn't do and voted for Obama instead of Kucinich (who had already dropped out). I personally find nothing surprising about his behavior. In fact, I don't find anything shocking anymore. Could this country possibly sink any lower? (Yes, and it does, pretty much every day.)
It is hard not to give up. Nothing ANYONE does seems to make any difference.
KateAlene wrote :"Well, Truthie, our president-non-elect for the last seven years sure has changed my life. Didn't have enough money to live above the rubble he caused."
What's the matter ? Crying about the Glass Ceiling because you were passed over for promotion to VP ?
Seven years ? Really ! Did you know the DemocRATS could have easily denied Bush reelection in 2004 ? Yes that's quite right.
In 2004 the Illinois State Constitution required all candidates to file their paperwork with the Secretary of State by the last full week in August. Problem was the Republican Party Convention didn't complete their nomination until September 1, after the filing deadline. But ya know what ? Rod Blagojevich, Illinois Govenor, with the help of his friends in the Democrat controlled legislature just weeks before deadline amended the Constitution of Illinois to accomodate the George W. Bush and his Republicans friends.
Blago could have told W go pound sand and denied him access to the Illinois Ballot denying him a second term.
But Blago saw the light. W is really an all right guy after all. So all right that he even helped him out of his self made jam and on to a second term in the White House.
So why don't you tell us what Ohio was all about in 2004. And why don't you tell us what Florida was about in 2000. After all if Blago was really all that mad about Florida in 2000 he would have paid the Big Bad Republicans back.
James Harris, Monica Moorehead and David McReynolds all received enough votes to tip the scale. But it was only Nader who received the derision from half wits like yourself because you have been brainwashed by the likes of Norman Solomon and not clearly capable of the most basic form critical thought.
The fact of the matter is it isn't the George Bush or the Republicans you despise it's Ralph Nader.
KateAlene wrote :"As you can tell, I seldom visit these sites."
I have news for you sister. I don't come here much either. But I never pass up the opportunity to make the pilgramage after the Liberal Establishment is betrayed by one of it's leaders. Being a haven for liberals there is no shortage of hand ringing here. And you can always count a couple of articles from the Intelligencia so they can check the security of the tethers they have to your nose rings.
It's all quite amusing ! Hi there Norman.
KateAlene wrote :"I like, and I think you would like,"
Why do you guys always want to crawl into other peoples heads ? Don't you have enough problems figuring out the state of your own confusion ?
KateAlene wrote :"the sites where people are realizing an earth of greater consiousness, compassion and communion than the unequal, unsustainable, unstable one we inhabit now."
Oh brother here it comes. This drivel proves without a doubt the issue is not about Barack Obama vs John McCain.
You are about coping,
I am about changing.
And you can cope with the best, or should I say, the worst of them.
Whether it's Ronald Reagan, George W. Bush or John McCain you always have the TM Lesson, or the 10 Dollar Latte, the Pilates lesson, the herbs or the snake oil elixir to cure our ills. All of which can be purchased for $39.95 plus shipping and handling, California orders orders please add 7% sales tax.
The fact of the matter is you are John McCain's enabler !
KateAlene wrote :"Try this out: pangeaday.org or anything from ted.com"
Sorry, I've tried those potions and they do nothing for me. Now if your are serious about mending your New Age Psychosis you should check out this : http://www.akpress.org/2007/items/pacifismaspathologyakpress
Now at $12.95 it is quite the bargain. This little gem is only 150 pages long and it fits in the palm of your hand. It's an easy read which I'm sure someone like yourself will appreciate. And it comes with a bonus. With each and every order your name is placed on a list in Langley Virginia. When was the last time Normoan Solomon made an offer like that ?
KateAlene wrote :"You named me a simpleton."
If the shoe fits......
KateAlene wrote :"Although it wasn't given as an honorable title"
You're on a hot streak !
KateAlene wrote :"I take it as such–to be in the company of Shakespeare's fools is to be in great company indeed. Thank you!"
You take it how ever you want. Some people need to delude themselves constantly in order to endure the rigors of day to day living. If that's what you need you go and do that. Just leave the rest of us alone.
A show of hands: How many in here live in the Lower Midwest, Great Plains, or the South?
If you do, you'll probably understand what I am talking about, even if you do not agree with my choice of candidate.
I say get Nader or McKinney or Kucinich on the ballot in any of those areas. Then sit back and see just how many votes they get. Come down to Missouri and ask a few people to tell you about the above mentioned candidates. See the puzzled look on their faces. Even more exciting is when someone has actually heard of one of them. Then you get to see the whole vein popping out in the forehead thing.
People in these conservative, buybull thumping regions see folks like Nader and Kucinich as radicals. They believe that Kucinich et al want to outlaw prayer and guns, open state funded abortion clinics in every town and invite Osama over for coffee and donuts.
Think Billy Bob is going to mark the oval next to any of them? Not a chance. It was hard enough to get them to elect Claire McCaskill.
People in these regions have high voter turn out.
They will be the ones who choose the next president not the folks in Vermont or Massachussetts.
If a candidate strays too far to the left he doesn't stand a chance here even among (or especially among) the undecided voters.
Would it be nice to have Kucinich as president? Yes. Is it likely? No.
Jozef,
I voted for Nader against Bush. I got Bush. I don't need to do that again. (New Mexico)
Your Nader vote, on the other hand, sounds like a safe vote. Go for it.
Hey, Norm, all I can say to supporters of Obama is:
"Suckers."
Don't you ever learn? Do you have to be a fool every election? Why can't you see that the ruling elite have the Democrats, as well as, the Republicans under their control?
I don't think you or the people who vote like you are very intelligent.
KateAlene. No. My vote for Ralph Nader will not put McCain in. I live in Vermont a state that will be Obama's no matter what. The electoral college guarantees that VT will go Obama's way. We came close to having instant runoff voting in VT, a Progressive Party idea, but the governor, a Republican, vetoed it, and the Democrats got cold feet. You see the Dems have most to lose if people had instant runoff voting. While your "Decisions are based on practical rather than ideological concerns", I have to live with myself and I cannot vote for criminal Democrats. Sorry. But your "realpolitik" means little to me when one has to prostitute oneself in order to elect the lesser of two evils. Obama will never "represent every faction of the Dem party, and the disgruntled Republicans and Independents and the patient Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, etc. etc." He will, and he does represent the ruling/owning class. That is to whom he owes his allegiance. By the way, Vermont did not need to change many election laws to have 4 major parties. We just made sure that people knew about their other then Democratic and Republican Party choices. The people were then empowered, i.e., they convinced themselves, that it was possible. And that is what is sorely lacking nationwide. When you believe it can't happen, it won't. You keep getting what you wish for. The S.O.S.
Jozef, I listen to Bernie Sanders every Friday on Thom Hartmann's radio program. He's great! (I'm jealous!)
Congratulations to your Vermonters (is that correct?). Point is the rest of the states lag far behind you. The only way for us to catch up with you is to change our election laws to make it possible for an even, competitive race among many parties, which would represent our diversity, and have some sort of a coalition government. Your vote for Nader won't change a thing. In fact, it will probably put McCain in. Would that satisfy you?
You are right, though, it's because of our two-party system, that we are in the fix we're in. We want Obama to represent every faction of the Dem party, and the disgruntled Republicans and Independents and the patient Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, etc. etc.
He can't do it! Those of who are voting Obama are talking realpolitik. This is not amoral. Decisions are based on practical rather than ideological concerns.
I was born and raised in Chicago. Now I live among the Pueblo Indians and old Hispanic communities in the Southwest. I've learned a lot about "governance" from all these diverse communities.
"QUESTION: Not voting for Obama may make some of you feel good. But what will it do to me? What have I (forget Obama for a moment, if you can)ever done to you to deserve being saddled with Bush for a third term?" What? I now have to set aside my reasons for voting so that what you consider what may happen to you is a priority in casting my vote? Huh? This is more of the my vote belongs to the Democrats bull. Excuse me, but the horse is the same corporate (night)mare and the rider is going to be a jockey owned by one of the two mobsters. Either way that horse is going to gallop all over you. So please spare us. My vote is MY VOTE. And you can't have it. It's not yours. Same old fascist mentality. And that is why I'm voting non-Democrat and non-Republican, because I live in Vermont where we have 4 major political parties, 6 Progressive Party state legislators, Anthony Pollina from the Progressive Party giving the Dem and Repubs a good run for governor, Bernie Sanders, the Liberty Union Party (a.k.a. Socialist Party). You want to know why? Because we Vermonters think outside the 2 party box and we make non-Democratic Party and non-Republicanism work. Because we don't march goose-step with the corporate parties. So instead of worrying about what my vote for Ralph Nader may do for you, you should be worrying about the screwing that is definitely coming your way from the Obama administration, or the McCain administration. Either way, same old imperialism.
river10, you are a ray of sanity in this chaos. I love your closing sentence: "Obama will not deliver to our doorsteps a new world, but he, alone of electable candidates, will at least crack the door open enough for each of us to step out and do our part for such a world."
This brings to mind Sen. Obama's own quote, "We are the change we have been waiting for."
I have worked and lived with low-income families throughout my career. There is definitely a difference whether Democrats or Republicans (especially radical, neocon Republicans) are running things and the difference is felt by the most vulnerable of our society. I say stop the head games and work hard to get Obama elected. Stop being distracted and confused by your own conception of what "NEW WORLD" should look like. If you want to get out of a hole, first you have to stop digging.
It is all about the people. The people of Vermont have repeatedly voted in Bernard (Bernie) Sanders even though he is independant and socialist. This means it is indeed possible to oppose the two party system, at least in Vermont. It is imperative that the two party system be broken. While proportional representation would be a great improvement, this is unlikely. While article V allows for citizen-based initiatives, it is not respected. Ammending the constituiton to get proportional representation is not likely in the abscence of respect for the constitution and the rule of law. This is the crux of the matter.
If the candidate violates the constitution and you vote for him, that is the principle you uphold. Disrespect for the constitution. If the people do not then turn towards a candidate like Nader who has proven already his self-less dedication to America, then it is the responsability of those who do not vote for him if Obama or McCain is elected. Americans are unable to deal with reality because they are not smart enough as a whole. Not voting for Nader or McKinney is a betrayal of the constitution and of justice. Both McCain and Obama have violated their constitutional oaths. One of them is a war criminal by his own admission and the evidence. It is the duty of all Americans to vote for Nader as he is the most viable of the two lawful alternatives. If Paul were to run, then he should get the support over Nader, because the moment we face , right now, is one of defending the U.S constitution. I don't know about you ,but I respect the constitution, even if framed as it is for the benefit of landowners. Jefferson's Bill of Rights must be defended! They are our rights!
Well, Truthie, our president-non-elect for the last seven years sure has changed my life. Didn't have enough money to live above the rubble he caused.
As you can tell, I seldom visit these sites. I like, and I think you would like, the sites where people are realizing an earth of greater consiousness, compassion and communion than the unequal, unsustainable, unstable one we inhabit now.
Try this out: pangeaday.org or anything from ted.com
You named me a simpleton. Although it wasn't given as an honorable title, I take it as such--to be in the company of Shakespeare's fools is to be in great company indeed. Thank you!
KateAlene wrote: "PS What did the guy above me just say? In a sentence."
Sure I can reduce down what I said for a Simpleton like yorself:
The DemocRAT Party is the Party of Big Business, the Republican Party is the Business Party.
There, does Dizzy Sister understand ?
KateAlene wrote: "Truthie: So who are you going to vote for? I'd like to know what my future will look like."
If you are wait for election results to change your life your are in pretty bad shape. William Jefferson Clinton, a DemocRAT, gave us a Welfare "Reform" Bill that impoverished millions of people. Elections mean nothing until people find candidates that represent THEIR interests and GET OUT AND WORK FOR THEM !
With your type of vaccuous analysis all I can tell you is to stop thinking, stop typing and start reading ! Because your understand of Political Economy can charitably described as shallow.
Respond when you can grasp something more than one sentence long.
Norm, Ralph would like to join in a debate with you. Give him a ring.
Kitty, it mis-represents the truth to say we think Obama and McCain are "the same." You certainly aren't going to convince any of us with that kind of nonsense. Eminent historian Howard Zinn says there's only a slight difference between Obama and the Republican Party - not the same.
I would say that once someone who has crossed the lines that Obama has, it's time for Americans to wake up and smell the rot. Obama saw fit to support an illegal occupation which has resulted in a million innocent Iraqi deaths - mostly children - and thousands of young Americans. Recently Obama gave immunity to corporate criminals and the president. We have to use our voices and vote against that - not for it. Let's build a collective voice through the ballot box. "No more."
I'm getting pretty tired of people like Norm Solomon, who advocates electing a man who would have other people's children killed as a strategy for advancing his career. Or allowing a right wing president to spy on Americans just so he can win the favor of the corporate elite power mongers.
Truthie: So who are you going to vote for? I'd like to know what my future will look like.
Older Sister to Little Brother,
Yo, I'm dead serious. Some of these intelligent, well-meaning and well-read, hard workin' activists, god love'em, need to think not just of their just desserts, but of the common good.
Yes, I'm asking them to do what Obama is doing and they could but won't.
We're playing' dice here, and we're out to win. Win so we can get something accomplished for ALL of us! As I said, let's let this thing play out.
In the meantime, sign Kucinich's Petition to Impeach Bush. Donate to the ACLU et al. lawsuit. Funnel your anger in these positive progressive acts. Don't take your baseball and bat and leave the Obama faction. For god's sake! We need each other.
OK. I'm stopping now. Hope I haven't taken up all the oxygen on this blog.
PS What did the guy above me just say? In a sentence.
KateAlene wrote: "QUESTION: Not voting for Obama may make some of you feel good. But what will it do to me? What have I (forget Obama for a moment, if you can)ever done to you to deserve being saddled with Bush for a third term?"
TALK ABOUT IGNORANT SELF CENTERED ARROGANCE.....you take the cake !
The Center for Response Politics has up on their website a report of the largest contributors to BOTH the OBAMA and McCain Campaigns. And you know what they show. the Top 20 on both lists are ALL BIG BUSINESS ! Yeah that's right BOTH candidates have sold out to capital interests. But don't get me wrong there IS a difference between the two.
BARACK OBAMA HAS TAKEN 154 MILLION DOLLARS FROM BIG BUSINESS
while
JOHN McCAIN HAS TAKEN a measly 85 MILLION DOLLARS.
Yeah that's right OBAMA is nearly TWICE the PIG as John McCain !
Want proof ?
Here are the numbers for Obama:
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
Here are the numbers for McCain :
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?id=N00006424&cycle2=2008&g...
Need some perspective ? If you take the Top Contributor to McCain, Merril Lynch at $250,000, and place it in ranked order on Obama's list it would place 15th.
Do just the opposite and take Obama's 20th ranked contributor, General Electric at $210,000, and they fit in THIRD on Obama's list.
So ditch your FOOLISH LIBERAL ARROGANCE and repeat after me.
Barack Obama is a CAPITALIST PIG !
Barack Obama voted to give Free Reign to the Police State
Barack Obama does not represent my interests !
He never did !
Jessie Jackson was right to say he wanted to cut Obama's nuts off for talking down to Black people !
Barack Obama will NEVER legislate a single payer healthcare system !
Barack Obama will never institute Labor Law reform !
I will never buy the Big Bad Republican Argument again because the DemocRATS ARE JUST AS BIG and EVEN WORSE !
Yo! Great discussion! But, apparently we still haven't figured out what to do. Just a few thoughts.
1) the one with the most votes wins. Oh, I know there are those who think that the whole system is rigged so why bother, but not voting is a guaranteed loss. So I win if I convince you not to vote.
2) the one with the most votes wins. So, if I convince you that "statistically" your guy/gal can't win, you won't vote for her/him and I win again.
3) the one with the most votes wins. So, if I point out to you that your guy/gal never gets many votes, (very possibly, nay, probably, because I have succeeded in previous elections in convincing you of #1 or #2), then you will get discouraged and give up and I win again.
How elegant! I have convinced you to abandon the best candidates in the race without ever even having to attack them! I have convinced you to abandon not only all your principles but your best interests by simply saying "your guy can't win". And you will never know if (s)he could because you, like too many others, chickened out and didn't vote for her/him because I convinced you (s)he couldn't win. So, without all those votes for your guy you WOULD have given her/him if I hadn't convinced you (s)he "couldn't win", I win! Bravo! Mission Accomplished! Man, that was lot simpler than I thought!
This is not rocket science. I've heard it over and over again "I really like that guy, but he can't win so I'll hold my nose and vote for this guy cause he can." Isn't it amazing how easy it is to get so many votes for a guy people aren't crazy about simply by saying "he can win" and to lose so many votes for somebody whose policies would be very good simply by saying "he can't win", thereby guaranteeing same, because it IS true that you can't win - without votes.
So, as things keep getting worse and worse every time we chicken out and do the "lesser of two evils" thing, thereby guaranteeing that one of the evils gets elected, what the heck, why not go for what we really want this time. We may be pleasantly surprised, even astonished. That is the LAST thing the political establ. wants us to do. Every time they get us to support one of the duopoly with either the LOTE thing or the SCOTUS thing, they breathe a sigh of relief and, behind closed doors, chuckle, perhaps in disbelief, at the fact they got away with this chestnut once again.
I admit that I've developed a certain fascination with comments by those I usually refer to as Lesser-Evilists, but might also be called Foregone-Conclusionists: Vote for Obama. Period. Full stop. Case closed.
But I have to admit that KateAlene's deliciously goofy incentive tickles me.
If it's not a put-on, you must be very young.
"Think," indeed. That's precious. 8)
Please, let's get off our high horses. We do NOT represent the majority of the party. Let this thing play itself out.
QUESTION: Not voting for Obama may make some of you feel good. But what will it do to me? What have I (forget Obama for a moment, if you can)ever done to you to deserve being saddled with Bush for a third term?
For god's sake, calm down and THINK!
In the documentary award winning Mother jones writer James Ridgeway called the Democrats a bunch of "Dirty Pricks" for the trash they pulled to sabotage the 2004 Nader for President Campaign in Pennsylvania. We now find out the trash pulled by the DemocRATS was illegal.
Yesterday PA Attorney General indicted 12 DemocRAT staffers on charges of :
1)theft of public funds
2)criminal conspiracy
3)conflict of interest
The AGs Press release put the sums of money involved "in the millions". One conservative blogger put the total at 4 million.
In his news conference Corbett states that 188,000 dollars in illegal bonuses was paid out in 2004 for campaign work.
Corbett also stated that 50 staffers worked fulltime for a week at taxpayer expense in the Nader Petition Challenge effort.
To view the entire press conference click here and click the link below the photo of Corbertt
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/press.aspx?id=3771
here is a transcribed segment from Corbett's Press Conference that pertained to the Nader Petition challenge.
It starts at the 22:00 minute mark
"There were Petition Challenges
The Grand Jury found that employees and resources for the House Democrat Caucus were historically and routinely used to conduct petition challenges against candidates who were opponents to the Democratic House candidates or the Democratic Party. This effort was typically lead by Michael Manzo or Cott. Employees were not required to and did not take leave for the times spent during their regular work hours when challenging nominating petitions. These efforts were by no means limited to House Races. Two outstanding examples of misappropriation of Tax Payer Resources for petition challenges were the Ralph Nader for Pre