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Charlie Savage on Obama's Embrace of Bush/Cheney 'Terrorism Policies'
During the Bush presidency, there were few reporters, if there were any, who were better on issues of civil liberties and executive power abuses than Charlie Savage, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his work exposing the lawlessness of Bush's signing statements while at The Boston Globe. For that reason, it will be very difficult even for the hardest-core Obama supporters to dismiss away the following observations about Obama as nothing more than the angry harping of excessively impatient, unfairly harsh and/or alarmist Obama critics (also referred to by some Obama supporters -- using the Fox News script -- as "Far Leftist, Marxist, reactionary, radical demagogues"). From Savage this morning on the front page of The New York Times:
Even as it pulls back from harsh interrogations and other sharply debated aspects of George W. Bush's "war on terrorism," the Obama administration is quietly signaling continued support for other major elements of its predecessor's approach to fighting Al Qaeda.
In little-noticed confirmation testimony recently, Obama nominees endorsed continuing the C.I.A.'s program of transferring prisoners to other countries without legal rights, and indefinitely detaining terrorism suspects without trials even if they were arrested far from a war zone.
The administration has also embraced the Bush legal team's arguments that a lawsuit by former C.I.A. detainees should be shut down based on the "state secrets" doctrine. It has also left the door open to resuming military commission trials.
And earlier this month, after a British court cited pressure by the United States in declining to release information about the alleged torture of a detainee in American custody, the Obama administration issued a statement thanking the British government "for its continued commitment to protect sensitive national security information."
These and other signs suggest that the administration's changes may turn out to be less sweeping than many had hoped or feared - prompting growing worry among civil liberties groups and a sense of vindication among supporters of Bush-era policies.
Savage lists several other examples of controversial Bush/Cheney "War on Terror" policies which have been either fully embraced or preliminarily welcomed by the Obama administration, all of which have been previously discussed here (though one episode Savage didn't mention which is one of the most disturbing yet is the Obama DOJ's ongoing and increasingly aggressive efforts to keep Bush's NSA warrantless spying program shielded from judicial review, by invoking Bush's State Secrets argument).
Concerning the pending dispute over Bush's wildly broad assertions of executive privilege in order to prevent his aides (such as Karl Rove) from having to disclose information to Congress, Savage quotes Obama's White House counsel Greg Craig as follows:
Addressing the executive-privilege dispute, Mr. Craig said: "The president is very sympathetic to those who want to find out what happened. But he is also mindful as president of the United States not to do anything that would undermine or weaken the institution of the presidency. So for that reason, he is urging both sides of this to settle."
That may be the most revealing quote of the article. If -- as virtually all Bush critics agree -- the Bush presidency ushered in a massive and dangerous expansion of executive power, isn't it necessary, by definition, to scale back some of those powers -- i.e., to "undermine or weaken the institution of the presidency" -- if those abuses are to be reversed? The cynical view has long been that Obama will not, on his own, meaningfully uproot Bush's executive power expansions because political officials do not get into office and then start voluntarily giving up their own power. Craig's statement constitutes a virtual affirmation of the cynic's view of Obama's intentions.
* * * * *
Having said all of this, and while believing that Savage's article is of great value in sounding the right alarm bells, I think that he paints a slightly more pessimistic picture on the civil liberties front than is warranted by the evidence thus far (though only slightly). Additionally, it is all but certain that media stars and right-wing Bush followers will dishonestly exploit Savage's article to make claims about "vindication of Bush policies" that go far beyond the cautious statements Savage makes.
As Savage notes, there was a flurry of Executive Orders issued by Obama in the first week which are indisputably positive and constitute genuine reversals of some key Bush policies -- banning CIA black sites, guaranteeing International Red Cross access to all detainees (i.e., no more secret detentions), freezing all military commissions, increasing some Executive Branch restrictions on presidential secrecy powers, substantially limiting the interrogation techniques which (at least for now) the CIA is authorized to employ. All of those orders were, by design, preliminary, incomplete and reversible -- and their value is therefore limited -- but they were clearly important steps in the right direction.
Additionally, the fact that there are some Obama appointees with some inexcusably horrible, Bush/Cheney-replicating views -- such as Solicitor General Elena Kagan's endorsement of the "war" paradigm to justify indefinite, lawless detention of "enemy combatants" and Deputy Solicitor General Neal Katyal's partnership with Bush official Jack Goldsmith to advocate for Orwellian "national security courts" -- doesn't mean that those will become Obama's policies. After all, Obama's own Vice President and Secretary of State last year co-sponsored legislation to ban the use of the State Secrets privilege as a preemptive tool to immunize Presidents from judicial scrutiny of alleged criminality, but that sure didn't stop the Obama DOJ from embracing exactly that dangerous secrecy weapon in a federal appeals court last week. Policies become policies when the President adopts them, not when some of his appointees advocate them.
There are also some mildly encouraging signs that Congress will impose checks on Obama's power when he fails to follow through on his promises to do so. As Savage notes, numerous members almost immediately re-introduced the State Secrets legislation as a rebuke to Obama after his DOJ advocated that power for itself. Perhaps more notably -- and more surprisingly -- Rep. Jane Harman, a Blue Dog who was one of the worst enablers of Bush abuses of the last eight years, wrote an excellent Op-Ed in her local newspaper last week that went way further than Obama has gone in demanding a restoration of basic civil liberties. She demands that all Guantanamo prisoners be released, sent home, or tried in our existing federal courts; that the Military Commissions Act be repealed in its entirety; and that all new laws in these areas be debated and drafted entirely out in the open, with full public hearings first.
If someone like Jane Harman is emphatically advocating those measures, then there may be hope that even if, as appears to be the case, Obama is intent on preserving some Bush/Cheney abuses, it will be Congress -- which has the ultimate duty here -- that stops him. If, for instance, Obama wants to create some new, due-process-abridging detention scheme on U.S. soil ("national security courts"), he will need Congressional approval, and if someone like Jane Harman is already signaling her opposition, it's difficult (though hardly impossible) to imagine how he would obtain that. The fact that Congress has spent the last eight years being complicit, meek, compliant and impotent is no reason to assume they will continue to be. Congress has a history of being much more assertive with Democratic Presidents, and that could -- and should -- be an important check on Obama.
* * * * *
Nonetheless, there is no question that Obama has already taken some truly alarming steps, including -- in addition to those listed above -- invocation of highly dubious secrecy claims to resist FOIA requests and keep Bush/Cheney documents concealed. Moreover, after initially (and very tentatively) defending the limited rendition policy which Leon Panetta said they would continue, I've become convinced -- for reasons Darren Hutchinson has argued and Savage today pointed out -- that there's more potential mischief in that policy than I immediately recognized.
There's just no denying that there are substantial and disturbing steps which have been taken. And critically, the primary excuse offered by Obama supporters for all of these actions -- he just needs more time; it's only been three weeks -- is a complete straw man.
These are not complaints that Obama has failed to act quickly enough to reverse Bush/Cheney policies. Indeed, there are many areas where Obama has explicitly said he needs time before deciding what he wants to do -- closing Guantanamo, proceeding with detainee trials; deciding if he wants to claim Bush's power to indefinitely detain "enemy combatants" on U.S. soil; responding to some FOIA requests, etc. Very few civil libertarians -- and certainly not me -- have objected to his needing more time before he finalizes his exact policies. That's perfectly reasonable. Some of these issues are truly complex, involve many moving parts, and require that many factions which he needs (e.g., inside the CIA) be placated. Taking some time is reasonable. The complaint is not that Obama has failed to move quickly enough to repudiate Bush/Cheney abuses. Virtually nobody is arguing that.
Rather, the criticisms are grounded in the opposite premise: these cases which have provoked objections are all cases where Obama has already taken affirmative actions to preserve and defend Bush/Cheney policies. In the State Secrets case, for example, the Obama DOJ explicitly rejected the ACLU's offer for more time, declaring they do not need or want more time, that they have had ample time to review the issues and have decided that they believe in the Bush/Cheney theory of what the State Secrets privilege allows. Here's what Greg Craig told Savage about why the Obama DOJ embraced Bush's State Secrets theory:
Mr. Craig said Mr. Holder and others reviewed the case and "came to the conclusion that it was justified and necessary for national security" to maintain their predecessor's stance.
Can that be any clearer? Not even the Obama DOJ is claiming they needed more time. They're saying they had all the time they needed, so Obama supporters should really stop trying to defend them by offering up excuses that the Obama administration itself rejects.
* * * * *
The bottom line is this: most of the key civil liberties and Constitutional questions that linger from the dark Bush/Cheney era remain unresolved thus far. Obama has not yet embraced or rejected most of them. And that is by design. There was that first week of Executive Orders that made some nice symbolic gestures and, in some cases, took some tangible steps. In other cases, the Obama administration has already evinced some of the truly disturbing tendencies of its predecessors. But overall, the truly controversial and weightiest questions have been pushed off to the future (e.g., he ordered Guantanamo closed but has not yet said whether he wants to retain the power to imprison accused Terrorists without a real trial). In sum: who and what Barack Obama is when it comes to the restoration of our core civil liberties and Constitutional protections remains to be seen. Those fights are still ones that will be waged.
There are people who believe that Barack Obama is kind, just and good, and thus are going to have a hard time believing that he's embracing some of the most abusive Bush/Cheney policies even when he does it right in front of their faces. Others aren't ever going to object to what Obama does in this area, because they believe (as Bush supporters believed about Bush) that there's nothing really wrong if Obama wields these same powers since Obama is a kind-hearted ruler and therefore can be trusted not to abuse these powers. As DCLaw pointed out yesterday, people with that swooning mentality can't be reached because they don't really believe in the basic premise on which the country was founded, as enunciated by James Madison in Federalist 51:
Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.
We don't place faith in the Goodness and kindness of specific leaders -- even Barack Obama -- to secretly exercise powers for our own Good. We rely instead on transparency and on constant compulsory limits on those powers as imposed by the Constitution, by other branches, and by law. That's what it means to be a nation of laws and not men. When Obama embraces the same abusive and excessive powers that Bush embraced, it isn't better because it's Obama rather than Bush wielding that power. It's the same. And that's true even if one "trusts" Obama more than Bush.
A genuine reversal of the last eight years -- meaning something more than just sand-papering the roughest edges -- will come not from having a kinder-hearted and more magnanimous leader, but only from a restoration of the legal and Constitutional framework that makes a President's magnanimity irrelevant, since his powers are exercised transparently and with real checks and limits. It remains very much an open question whether that will happen. There are some preliminary signs that it could, and some much more concrete signs that it won't -- at least not without a very concerted fight.
- Posted in


47 Comments so far
Show AllWe will see a huge shift away from the Democratic party in the 2010 elections - no more party politics - only a grassroots movement on specific issues and the politicians who will support them. The Progressive community has to form a movement completely outside of the two mainstream parties as they are, as oft been stated here, the same horse, but with different spots on each side.
O D O C O,
Very well stated !
A Parliamentary _ p o w e r _ -_ s h a r i n g _ approach of perhaps 5 or 6 INDEPENDENT parties is likely to be best, as unifying a single "3rd" party has all too often ended up playing into the DUOPOLY's plans.
Namaste
"A genuine reversal of the last eight years -- meaning something more than just sand-papering the roughest edges -- will come not from having a kinder-hearted and more magnanimous leader, but only from a restoration of , since his powers are exercised transparently and with real checks and limits. It remains very much an open question whether that will happen. There are some preliminary signs that it could, and some much more concrete signs that it won't -- at least not without a very concerted fight."
And just who is going to restore "the legal and Constitutional framework that makes a President's magnanimity irrelevant"? Impeachement Off The Table Pelosi? Other War Crime abettors from the democratic party? The same people who brought us Bill Clinton's crimes? As I've been harping, the federal government is a failed institution because too much power is allowed the executive, and it was not foreseen by the framers that congress would be populated by denizens of political parties unwilling to do their job checking executive power. And it's not like this failure just happened under Bush; it's been ongoing for decades.
"The same people who brought us Bill Clinton's crimes?"
Here's a tip: we're never going to get anywhere if we keep repeating lies about Democrats.
As measured by the total number of convictions and forced resignations in his administration, Clinton;s was the cleanest two-term Presidential administration of the 20th century. By this fairly objective measure, his was the cleanest administration since Teddy Roosevelt.
The Reagan administration, by contrast, had more convictions and forced resignations BY FAR than any administration in U.S. history. The Reagan gang were so corrupt, they would sometimes rack up more convictions and forced resignations in a SINGLE DAY than the Clinton administration accumulated in its entire eight years.
"Others aren't ever going to object to what Obama does in this area, because they believe (as Bush supporters believed about Bush) that there's nothing really wrong if Obama wields these same powers since Obama is a kind-hearted ***ruler*** and therefore can be trusted not to abuse these powers."
Does anyone see the oddity in using the term "ruler" for a democratically elected president? Emperors, monarchs and dictators rule, elected officials govern. Is Mr. Greenwald using this term with irony or has he, like many others, forgotten that democracies are governed? Or is this the term that has always been used in the US as regards its leaders?
Enquiring minds....
It doesn't appear GG used the word "ruler" with any irony whatsoever, especially since he fails to address the real, core issue here, which is the un-Constitutional issuing of Executive Orders.
Just because "we" feel that some of BO's EOs are "good" or "right" doesn't make them any more Constitutional, period. We have a President, not a King, or "ruler," who makes law by fiat when the mood strikes.
Instead of BO issuing EOs to counteract previous EOs, the Congress should simply pass a law that eliminates EOs altogether, retroactively, and reestablish itself as the only legal lawmaking body of government.
The problem is that EOs are allowed in the current constitution under the clause that allows the executive to establish rules for the operation of the executive departments. This is what I've described as "other problems" within the constitution that provide the reasoning for its replacement. We will continue to have a "ruler"--"elected king" as the Anti-Federalists termed the office of the president--until we evolve a new constitution and establish new governing institutions.
But doesn't it depend on which President is issuing the Executive Orders?
Consider these Executive Orders issued by Bill Clinton:
Clinton signed an Executive Order cracking down on federal employees who owe child support.
Issued a new executive order to require polluters to disclose information to the public and expanded the public's right-to-know about toxic releases.
Signed executive orders to increase recycling and cut pollution in federal buildings.
Issued an Executive Order strengthening implementation of human rights treaties,
issued an Executive Order on Environmental Justice to ensure that low-income citizens and minorities do not suffer a disproportionate burden of industrial pollution.
Issued an Executive Order to expand protection of coral reefs and their ecosystems to address issues of coral reef management, expansion of marine protected areas and increased protections for coral reef species.
Issued an Executive Order to coordinate federal efforts to spur the development and use of bio-based technologies, which can convert crops, trees and other "biomass" into a vast array of fuels and materials.
Issued an Executive Order directing federal agencies to reduce energy use in buildings 35 percent by 2010.
That's quite a difference. Just because Bush II abused his powers doesn't necessarily mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
8 Years without a Leader:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA8WVHm-CcA
I'm not sure that I understand what Obama is thinking. I understand that he is NOT the progressive candidate that I hoped for (Kucinich or Nader)but if he continues down the same path as Bush/Cheney won't he become guilty of the same crimes?
He should be very aware that people expect his campaign promises to unfold with the 'hope & change' as promised and not just a load of BS. If he keeps breaking promises (FISA) people are going to get mad and they may demand a refund.
We NEED the transparency and the accountability to move forward. Just as we need the crimes of the last regime to be investigated and prosecuted.
imo
http://opinionsandreasons.blogspot.com/
"... but if he continues down the same path as Bush/Cheney won't he become guilty of the same crimes?"
_____________________________________________
Yes and no. The very path-- or Road to Hell-- you reference is Unitary Executive Boulevard, and there are no traffic signals or road stripes. It's more like an unmarked race course; the gun sounds and it's pedal to the metal, and devil take the hindmost!
Its raison d’être is to place the Executive Branch ABOVE the law, so it can do a really EFFECTIVE job of authoritarian rule.
Put another way, Obama is ALREADY nominally a war criminal edging toward the brimstone path; with each step, such of a conscience or soul as he still possesses will wither and shed.
But from the inside, he'll feel exactly the resolve, self-assurance, and self-righteousness felt by his distinguished (but not extinguished) predecessor. But there, the resemblance ends. Obama can still strut his charismatic stuff, reverse minor depredations from the Dark Years as long as it doesn't involve much risk, etc.
And I believe he'd remain popular with a core constituency even if he simply puts a fresh face on toxic Bush policies-- at LEAST long enough to cheerlead for that all-important SECOND term, when he'll finally be able to spend his store of Political Capital to achieve all of the things that progressives hold dear.
Tragic. I hope I cleared things up for you!
· Yr Obd't Servant
As usual,it would be difficult to improve much on this Glenn Greenwald piece.
However, as a Green Party activist and therefore a certified "radical progressive," I rather liked the Nate Silver characterization he disrespected. It reminds us that the word "progressive" was adopted precisely to paper over those differences within the left, as well as to avoid the freight on the term "liberal." (Greens aren't liberals - the idea is to be something new.)
Personally, I am more alarmed and less surprised by Obama's anti-civil-liberties positions than Mr. Greenwald or other Obama supporters. He was, after all, thoroughly vetted for the position by the power structure of the Democratic Party - and probably the Republicans, as well. And it accords with his voting record. Remember telecom immunity?
Personally, I'm not sure how we're going to maintain pressure on the Obama administration when so many, like Greenwald, are so committed to the man. One way would be to grow the Green Party so you have some leverage. Beyond that, you're really talking about rioting. Worked in Oakland, but I'm not so sure about Washington.
I'm still looking forward to details on how you're going to do that. If you come up with something plausible, I'm sure Greens will be glad to get aboard. We're already writing letters and demonstrating with the best of them - anybody see a lot of movement from that?
odoco: how do you expect to see "a huge shift away from the Democratic party" without some form of "party politics?" This is mysterious. Please elaborate. & I'm not being sarcastic: I love technical politics. I await your ideas.
Oregoncharles
Oregoncharles -
I do agree that Greenwald does his usual good work. But, how did he not mention the
"While some detainees in the 1990s were allegedly abused after transfer, under Mr. Bush the program expanded and included transfers to third countries — some of which allegedly used torture . . ." part of the article?
I know their was many things wrong about the Savage crap, but using "allegedly"?
I know Times people have some warped sense of reality, but to "allege" that torture went on? Greenwald usually gives shit about this kind of MSM Orwellianism.
I totally agree with your "I am more alarmed and less surprised by Obama" line. He can't and should not be trusted. Especially with the ranks of crooks and charlatans he has brought in.
they select so we may elect. there is no real difference any more between the two.
But he is also mindful as president of the United States not to do anything that would undermine or weaken the institution of the presidency.
If Obama keeps acting like George Wanker Bush, he (Obama) will "weaken the institution of the presidency" to the point where the title will have to be changed to something like "El Gran Caudillo Obama" or "Der Fuhrer Obama". Hail, Caesar. We who are about to
1. die
2. go broke
3. be betrayed
4. all the above
salute you.
But he is also mindful as president of the United States not to do anything that would undermine or weaken the institution of the presidency.
------------------------------
Obama will trojan horse in and cement the "Unitary Executive" in a manner that bumbling McCain would've been unable.
In 2012 when the Presidency is handed off to Jeb Bush he'll have all the tools of tyranny at his disposal.
Not a word will be said as to whether the President can rendition, name any person an enemy combatant or stop any judicial proceeding cold.
The reply will be...Obama did it too.
End of argument.
I guess this is what you get when you elect a man because he’s good at playing the name-drop game, and surrounding himself with high profile symbols of the Americana.
“Oh, didn’t you hear? He went to Columbia and Harvard.”
“He’s a constitutional lawyer. a civil rights lawyer….”
“Bono, Geffen, Bill Gates, Buffet are all behind him….”
Better than Clinton, better than Bush? Oh, really?! If Clinton equaled a third term of Bush, what does that make Obama?
One day platitudes and clichés will be tossed out for substance and published work, but don’t hold your breath. Never once did anyone actually qualify the man’s credo with hard facts, published academic works, cases defended, etc. Instead, personal testimonials and puffery ruled the day. And now, as the progressives learn one more time (!), we're only needed for organizing mass demonstrations, filling caucuses and stadiums, and generating large pools of money.
I’m beginning to think Obama’s team thinks useful idiot is synonymous for progressive….
Rather than being suckered into the big dream hype, and now the insufferable lectures about how we all need to be pragmatic, the country should have elected Hillary Clinton. At least you would know who the hell you put in the Oval Office. Progressives would be full-throttled and lined up as we held her in check from day one, as opposed to what’s happening with Obama –dead water— progressives splintered and floating inanely in hope some miracle wind will save us.
How long does one last waiting for crumbs to fall from above now that a 'civil rights lawyer' is in charge? I swear, there's a faction in the Democratic Party uninterested in democracy, and prefer a benevolent “liberal” monarchy.
Do O'Bama supporters sense yet that they have waded into a massively tangled thicket of triangulation? Are they thrilled watching O'Bama's high wire balancing act? The price we pay for such entertainment is high. All of his predecessors' policies must be dumped or O'Bama takes responsibility for all imperial blowback on his watch. If he wants the USan people to share responsibility he has to take the political risk to publicly demand that we do. We are then obligated to demand that he reign in the imperial steamroller, and if we neglect to demand this then we take responsibility for the further imperial blowback and the further escalation of martial law in the "good ol USA". Surveillance cameras on every street corner and an army of "big brothers" brown shirts WATCHING YOU.
There is still a "war on terror"to fight (or whatever you want to call it). The powers of the presidency expanded not just because of Bush but also because of 911. If Obama had been President on 911, surely, we would have granted him whatever additional powers were necessary to fight the terrorists.
I don't have access to state secrets or sensitive info, but Obama does. I trust him. If he says something is necessary for national security - I believe he is telling the truth (unlike Bush).
I don't have access to state secrets or sensitive info, but Obama does. I trust him. If he says something is necessary for national security - I believe he is telling the truth (unlike Bush).
---------------------------
Clearly you have no idea how our system of government was designed to function.
You wish to hand over to the executive the power of tyranny...to halt any legal proceeding based on his/her nod.
With this power an executive can commit ANY crime and simply bring an axe down as the courts begin to perform their democracy sustaining function.
If your "trust" in Obama is absolute then you should have no problem letting the courts double-check, just to make sure a "State Secret" is that, and not a cover-up of a crime.
Where did you learn this principle of "trust"?
Were you home schooled?
How can you confuse the issue of trust with me supporting dictatorships? This is a representative democracy not a direct democracy. We elected Obama to lead us. We are already trusting him with our nation's nuclear arsenal. In any government there will be classified info, how else could they function? Can't you see the need for official secrets?
So dictatorship is okay with you, as long as the dictator is good.
Social Science DOES recognise a "benevolent dictator." It could also be an oxymoron. SOMETHING needs to be done, certainly.
If the dictator is "good" then they are not a dictator. It is an oxymoron.
Do you understand the difference between a leader and a dictator?
See comment above. "Benevolent dictatorships" abound in history.
Once again, it is an oxymoron.
Maybe joehope didn't read this paragraph from Greenwald, which was written with precisely joehope in mind:
"There are people who believe that Barack Obama is kind, just and good, and thus are going to have a hard time believing that he's embracing some of the most abusive Bush/Cheney policies even when he does it right in front of their faces. Others aren't ever going to object to what Obama does in this area, because they believe (as Bush supporters believed about Bush) that there's nothing really wrong if Obama wields these same powers since Obama is a kind-hearted ruler and therefore can be trusted not to abuse these powers. As DCLaw pointed out yesterday, people with that swooning mentality can't be reached because they don't really believe in the basic premise on which the country was founded, as enunciated by James Madison in Federalist 51"
joehope will be swooning over Obama no matter what he does. I've never seen such subservience to a savior figure as this guy demonstrates.
Actually, perhaps Greenwald should re-read Federalist 51 because by having only two political parties in Washington, we've been violated it's principles for years.
I'm more concerned about moving forward and dealing with the challenges of today.
You know what it would take for me to lose faith in Obama? If he started acting like Bush or McCain. Until then, I'm proud to support him.
Uh, sorry to break it to you, Joe, but he already is. Keeping Bush/Cheney policies in place in his administration means more of the same Bush/Cheney abuses.
Do you really need this religion of yours?
If you can't see the vast difference between Obama and McCain/Bush, or the Democrats and Republicans, then you are blind.
>>You know what it would take for me to lose faith in Obama? If he started acting like Bush or McCain.
...."started?"
You slay me.
You're a moron for Obama, but a loyal moron. That's been very clear for some time.
"If Obama had been President on 911, surely, we would have granted him whatever additional powers were necessary to fight the terrorists."
If have never, ever, ever, understood this concept of needing powers to fight the terrorists.
Terrorists commit criminal acts and as far as I know the US has a sophisticated criminal law.
Therefore 9/11 was used as an excuse to assume powers that would otherwise have never been obtained.
911 was an act of war and obviously was didn't have sufficient powers in place to prevent it from happening. I agree that initially the PATRIOT ACT went too far. But we still need to expand our abilities to deal with the new threat of terrorism.
If Obama cuts back on our defenses, even controversial programs like internet surveillance, and we get attacked again, then we're going to be stuck with Palin 2012. That's how politics works in America.
So I just hope that we put in place the more common sense protections (like the recommendations of the 911 commission) instead of dismantling our security apparatus. If we work together we can find the right compromise between safety and ideology. Because let's face it, the laws imposed by a post-terrorist-attack President Palin would be frighteningly draconian.
9/11 was an act of terrorism.
You might consider reading this report about terrorism throughout the world and how different countries have used the predicament of terrorism (to their peril) to expand executive/military powers at the expense of human rights.
After all, if we don't remember/learn from history, we're doomed to repeat it.
Report of the Eminent Jurists Panel on Terrorism, Counter-Terrorism and Human Rights
(EJP Report)
http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=4453&lang=en
http://www.icj.org/IMG/EJPReport.pdf
The first and best way for the U.S. to deal with terrorism is for it to stop dishing it out. Along the way, we can stop being the world's superpower.
>>If Obama cuts back on our defenses, even controversial programs like internet surveillance, and we get attacked again, then we're going to be stuck with Palin 2012. That's how politics works in America.
So right, Joe....we need more war funding so we won't get stuck with more war.
One man's Department of War is just another's Department of Defense.
Internet surveillance...."Controversial?" I suppose contitutionally-defined civil liberties are "controversial" in your book, too. Assuming you can read.
"That's how politics works in America"....well, I disagree. Joe Dope, I'm sorry to say you are a poster child for how politics works here. The gulliblity of ignorant and/or easily frightened people has always been of paramount importance in U.S. poilitics.
As P.T. Barnum is (alleged) to have put it, "There's a sucker born every minute."
And you, apparently, are the sucker-in-chief.
Ah....Joe Dope. Still dopin' after all these years....
>> If Obama had been President on 911, surely, we would have granted him whatever additional powers were necessary to fight the terrorists.
"the terrorists?"
You mean like the Iraqi children we've been dropping bombs on for years now, none of which had anything to do with 9-11?
"The terrorists"....that's nothing but Bush speak.
"We" would have granted him the power?" Speak for youself, fool. Not me.
>>I don't have access to state secrets or sensitive info, but Obama does.
Joe, you don't need access to state secrets. You just need a brain.
>> I trust him. If he says something is necessary for national security - I believe he is telling the truth (unlike Bush).
The key word here is "believe."
A lot of people also "believed" Bush told "the truth", Joe. Did you not see the approval polls?
You can "believe" what you want, but that does not make it true.
Facts are what matter, Joe. And yet you want us to "trust" this man who not only wants to continue the war with no end in Afghanistan, but wants to escalate it? The man who continues to bomb Pakistani children with "drones", and appoints more neocons, Wall Street stooges, and even rethuglican cronies (until they withdraw their nomination in opposition) to his cabinet in the interest of "bipartisanship?"
Are you out of you mind? Or did you never have one?
There is no "war on terror" left to fight. There is only a war on ignorance that needs to be waged, and I propose that those with the (lack of) mindset like Joe Dope become our primary targets.
”…he will need Congressional approval, and if someone like Jane Harman is already signaling her opposition [for National Security Courts], it's difficult (though hardly impossible) to imagine how he would obtain that.”
Why not? If the Democrats fail Obama on some other way to unjustly try the Guantanamo detainees (instead of doing the right thing and trying them in Federal court), he can always count on the Republicans to support such a measure. There will always be enough Democrats in either house to pass the most nefarious legislation.
Greenwald is always spot on. Yes, the cynics amongst us have been vindicated--Obamacain was the best descriptor during the campaign.
It is surprising that Harman has sort of come around.
Why does Obama support the status quo set by Bush on so many important matters?
Because he serves the same masters, that's why.
Richard Holbrooke, Obama's representative to Pakistan and Afghanistan, was an attendee at Bilderberg Club meetings....and, so were many of Obama's appointees.
Obama is to be manipulated and controlled as were presidents before him.
The "Spiral Down" is not to be stopped as is the takeover of the Caspian Sea and Middle Eastern Oil Fields is to continue.......There will be another false flag event and with that Obama will be forced to reinforce W's strategies.
Well OBAMA is certainly more intelligent and articulate than Bush. It seems it will be business as usual.I used to cringe when Bush stammered and stuttered through a speech or press confrence unable to answer anything.And when obama had his 1st one he didnt look to good either and didnt seem to answer anything .Obama s whole campaign changed more and more right after he met with aipac and when he realized he may win this thing than he just sounded like any other politician.And the powers that be just wanted to put a kinder more intelligent face on our demise .
Thanks, Glenn, for the defense of the Sirota piece. I was amused by the comment thread following Silver's odd attack, everyone "signing on" as a "rationalist progressive." But based on Silver's distinction between "rationalists," who sound a lot like the nice solid folks you want living next door to you on the cul-de-sac, and radicals, who sound like the kind of people who you have to invite but whom you pray won't show up at your garden party (think Nader on a particularly bad day), who wants to sign on as a shrill, "difficult to organize," "prone to demagoguery," cynic who "orients by antithesis?" I mean aside from me. (Also eye-opening: following the Kos diary entry of Sirota's at issue, the thread contains little besides vitriol. "Rational progressives?" The anarchic Kossacks of the steppes are become the Praetorian Guard). In any case, I'm reading you, Sirota, and Taibbi, so I appreciated the take-down.
Myself, I'm real tired of the term "progressive," which was emptied of any substantive, agreed-upon meaning even before Hillary declared herself not-entirely-comfortable with the label "liberal,"--"Frankly, I prefer to call myself a progressive." Rather than slicing-and-dicing the term in order to render one definition perjorative, why not just use "Accomodationist" and "Opposition?" Or, umm, "Quisling" and "Resistance," if you like getting all inflammatory with your labels.
Sorry to go on about the Silver piece to which you linked and not this piece: it's first-rate, and, of course, if you insist on continuing in this vein,you are doubtless next in line for a good tarring. I doubt you lose any more sleep over it than the rest of the folks on this thread.
michael horan, orienting by antithesis at
http://www.nosuppertonight.com
Typically brilliant Greenwald atricle! No change on this front is a continuation of the proto-fascist police state that Bush set up. The whole terrorist boogyman scare tactic must be demolished; its real function is domestic control. The minor threat posed by this group can best be ameliorated by leaving their land and backing human rights. And Holbrooke says Pakistan shouldn't cede power to "the bad guys" in the northwest provinces? These guys are ready to renounce violence in exchange for local control of the judicial system. That's exactly what we should be doing with the reasonable Taliban faction in Afghanistan.
Reading these comments, I get a sense that the Obama doubters and critics really enjoy his every failure. Now you can all sit back and taunt us with your "told you so" brilliance and foresight. It really makes me sick; not because I feel like my support for Obama was misplaced---I still support him as the best possible elected official we could get, now---it sickens me because the glee your feeling is nothing more than a refection of the failure of the left to unify around a set of core beliefs that can move us forward. Divided we fall.
No, there's no glee on being correct about Obama. But then most on the left here just get insulted when we point out the contradictions. That's all we've been doing.
We've been objective, but loyal Dems think we're ideologues.
Anyway, it all means nothing unless loyal Dems act. We're tired, quite frankly. Loyal Dems should prepare to march on Washington, D.C. on March 20 or so, to protest the continuing wars.
And stop talking about the attacks on Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc. as if there's some sense to be made out of that mess. It's just a hopeless quagmire.
-TIA
"The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place." James Madison Federalist number 51.
"Prosecute George W. Bush for Murder"
http://prosecutegeorgebush.com/
Check this out.