Most Popular This Week
Popular content
Today's Top News
Israeli Women Soldiers Break the Silence
What's it like to be a woman serving in the Israeli occupation force in the West Bank? Is a woman's experience as an occupier any different than a man's? Yes indeed, say some women who have just broken their silence and offered a glimpse into the grim reality of the occupation.
"A female combat soldier needs to prove more," one explains. "A female soldier who beats up others is a serious fighter...When I arrived there was another female [who] was there before me...Everyone spoke of how impressive she is because she humiliates Arabs without any problem. That was the indicator. You have to see her, the way she humiliates, the way she slaps them, wow, she really slapped that guy."
This "impressive" woman is not a rare exception. "We discovered that the girls try to be even more violent and brutal than the boys, just to become one of the guys," says Dana Golan, director of Breaking the Silence, the Israeli organization that has just released a report with testimony from some 50 Israeli women who are veterans of the occupation.
The report "indicates how violence was deeply rooted in the daily routine," according to an article in Yediot Aharonot, one of Israel's most widely-read newspapers, full of disturbing quotes from the women. One who served at the Erez crossing between Israel and Gaza explained that "there was a procedure in which before you release a Palestinian back into the Strip -- you take him inside the tent and beat him. ... together with the commanders."
For Israelis who care to pay attention, another revelation of routine violence, sanctioned and sometimes even led by officers, hardly comes as news. Breaking the Silence has been offering the Israeli public such eyewitness testimony from Israeli soldiers since 2004. What is news is the first insight into the distinctive experience of women:
"The female soldiers repeatedly mention the particular difficulties they had as women, who had to prove that to were ‘fighters' in the midst of the goading male soldiers on the one hand, and the Palestinians, who have a hard time handling women in uniform on the other hand."
One woman recalled an incident several years ago when a Palestinian man laughed at her, because (or so she thought) she was a woman in uniform. She had to "salvage her self-respect," she says. So she moved close to the man, "as if I was about to kiss him. I told him, 'Come, come, what are you afraid of? Come to me!' And I hit him in the balls. I told him, 'Why aren't you laughing?' He was in shock, and then he realized ... not to laugh."
"It shouldn't reach such a situation," the woman says now. "The system is deeply flawed. The entire administration, the way things are run, it's not right."
Palestinian women have a distinctive experience, too. "Was there abuse of women?", an interviewer asked. "Yes," a woman soldier replied. "Slaps, that kind of thing. Mainly slaps. ... It was mainly the female combat soldiers who beat people. ... But also men, they had no problem slapping a woman around. If she screamed, they'd say, 'Shut it,' with another slap. A routine of violence. There were also those who didn't take part, but everyone knew it happened."
Sometimes, as the Breaking the Silence report indicates, the level of brutality grows beyond comprehension: a five year old child beaten; a nine year old who "posed no danger" shot to death; another child with both arms and both legs intentionally broken. The Yediot Aharonoth article offers a series of such horrifying incidents. When the full report is available on the Breaking the Silence website, it will be surely include even more heart-breaking tales.
Each soldier, male or female, is responsible for their own individual actions, of course. But this report raises disturbing questions about the society that requires them to serve in the military and then sends them on such a brutalizing mission, one that dehumanizes the perpetrators as well as their victims.
Most disturbing, perhaps, is their common explanation for the violence the inflict: The soldiers' daily routine in the Occupied Territories "is boring, so we'd create some action. We'd get on the radio, and say they threw stones at us, then someone would be arrested, they'd start investigating him... There was a policewoman, she was bored, so okay, she said they threw stones at her. They asked her who threw them. 'I don't know, two in grey shirts, I didn't manage to see them.' They catch two guys with grey shirts... beat them. Is it them? 'No, I don't think so.' Okay, a whole incident, people get beaten up. Nothing happened that day."
Another woman, describing a common ritual of humiliating and beating Palestinians at checkpoints, agreed: "It could go on for hours, depending on how bored they are. A shift is eight hours long, the times must be passed somehow."
The boredom is not a gendered experience. I heard exactly the same thing last year from a young Israeli man, now actively working to oppose the occupation. When he manned a checkpoint, at the tender age of 18, he would start each day intent on treating Palestinians humanely, he said. But as the hours went on -- as the boredom, the occasional inevitable conflicts, and often the oppressive heat, grew -- he would become more irritable, more violent, more likely to abuse his power.
Boredom and its minor irritations can easily lead young people, many of them still teenagers, to commit senseless violence. We see it happening in civilian life in most every nation, far too often. But when we see it we call it anti-social and dysfunctional, a problem to be addressed by society. We assume that society at large has a different norm, a more constructive way of dealing with boredom, which should be taught to the misbehaving youth.
Perhaps antisocial violence, wherever it occurs, is always a symptom of a whole society's dysfunction. But in this case the connection between individual and society is especially obvious and glaring. The antisocial Israeli youth are wearing their nation's uniform, acting (sometimes under orders) in the name of "national security," often praised for their violent behavior, and virtually never disciplined no matter how far they go.
They've grown up in a Jewish society that tends to treat Palestinians (not always, but far too often) as inherently dangerous, evil, inferior, and deserving whatever harm comes to them. It's hardly surprising that many of them would so easily cross the moral line into the realm of inhumanity.
Yet they've also grown up in a society that teaches them basic moral standards that should apply to all people. Most of the women interviewed in the report say they knew that what they were seeing, and sometimes doing, was wrong. But very few lodged any complaints, fearing the consequences if they spoke up. "I have to make a switch in my head and keep hating the Arabs and justify the Jews," one explained.
Now, these women, like their male colleagues, must live with the consequences of participating in a brutal occupation that many realize is a terrible moral, as well as political, mistake. Jewish Israeli society must live with the consequences of putting its young people into such an agonizing situation, where moral contradiction is an everyday fact of life. Worst of all, Palestinian society must go on paying the price for Israel's failure to bring its reality in line with its proclaimed principles.
- Posted in



69 Comments so far
Show AllPalestinians are
Human.
If the peoples of the world, including the Jewish people can turn, and together with Rachel Corrie, hold out their hands to the people of Palestine, saying, "you are our brothers and sisters," then that monstrous devouring murdering idolatrous entity, the state which hides behind the name "israel"can disappear, falling back into the abyss in the human spirit from which it arose...
"Never do anything against conscience even if the state demands it"
- Albert Einstein
This kind of article needs wide distribution in America, particularly among American Jews. Prof Chernus has been excellent in putting sunlight on this infection.
We, the US, cannot continue to "stand behind Israel, no matter what". When they commit attrocities with weapons "Made in USA", when they commit attrocities knowing that we will cover them at the UN, we become not only accomplices but targets for revenge.
Aside from the moral factors, practically, backing Israel's aggression is dangerous for US.
" ..... particularly among American Jews."
80% of U.S. Jews are allegedly NOT Zionist, and there should come a time at which they speak out against this Zionist madness. Otherwise, JINSA/AIPAC can claim to speak for all U.S. Jews.
The Israeli women soldiers chose to be fighters and are no different from the Israelis male soldiers in nature. In the US, male soldiers are put through more stress not only by their male superiors but women in general who put social pressure on men to stay and serve or be cast as a pariah. Military wives often brag about their husbands serving and some of them have said worse things like "If my husband backs away, I'll divorce him !" or worse "I'll castrate my husband if he chickens out !". That alone disproves the myth of "men are from Mars, women are from Venus". If women want peace and happiness, great but they should not be asking for their male partners to be macho. The same thing I suspect is happening in the Israeli military.
Here's what I've heard - in isreal you are REQUIRED to serve. No volunteer, no draft. Each and every 'citizen' does MANDATORY service. I'm just not sure if it has to be military.
I wouldn't be surprised to see that as the requirement. I assume that this is the requirement irrespective of sex.
Actually, it is only mandatory for non-Arab Israeli citizens. Arab citizens are exempt from military service. There have been proposals to make voting rights contingent on military service.
Sioux Rose
MARTIAN: You have to qualify as the most simple-minded fool to ever post on this site, with maybe two potential competing rivals. It never occurs to you to look past surface appearances, or to consider the root of phenomena. No. Just take the superficial evidence of the present moment and let your analysis reflect the mere surface.
Your sexism is repugnant. You have no idea what women go through in sexist societies, and treat quite casually the high incidences of male violence on and against women. That a few women, those that gravitate towards something as violent as the military might show an abuse of power is still a relatively rare event. What's really the causative factor is the war machine and how desperate people become its not always willing fodder.
You obviously get your education/views/misconceptions from right wing radio. It would take years for you to catch up on a viable reading list in the interest of honestly educating your mind. Opinions are expunged of value when they're based merely on kneejerk reactions as opposed to any serious study, research, fieldwork, or attempt at learning.
"You have to qualify as the most simple-minded fool to ever post on this site, with maybe two potential competing rivals. It never occurs to you to look past surface appearances, or to consider the root of phenomena. No. Just take the superficial evidence of the present moment and let your analysis reflect the mere surface. "
I do not understand what your personal problem is. I was stating women and the military in the US and said that it could be similar in the Israeli military. How far deep do I have to go to state the obvious?
"Your sexism is repugnant."
There is nothing sexist about my post. You did not read my post did you? Your atttitude is repugnant.
"You have no idea what women go through in sexist societies, and treat quite casually the high incidences of male violence on and against women."
That is not true. I may not be a married man but I know what women go through and they aren't suffering any more than men and real world experience proves it. I had to put up with macho women in high school and college. You can laugh at me for not scoring because I wasn't macho enough but it's true and it's widespread. Men are put through the pressure of having to look as macho for fear that no woman will come to them. Unless you have been living in a cave, you would have noticed that.
Here are some more facts to disprove that women suffer the most. I voted for Nader because I was a bleeding progressive but most of the female voters chose Obama and Mccain (because of Palin). If the feminists had worked on getting more women to vote for Nader, Nader would have won and so would have feminism as opposed to militaristic feminism. Please explain why some of the feminist groups are supporting Obama's war in Afghanistan and no complaints. A lot of women's clothing and cosmetics are petroleum based compared to men's which suggests that we are fighting resource wars to overbeautify women. I like women the way they are without all those petroleum based cosmetics. You say that women are suffering more than men but please explain why women have a longer life expectancy than men and why male singles are looked down upon by society while female singles aren't. No offense against women but men and women are suffering equally when you add it all up.
"That a few women, those that gravitate towards something as violent as the military might show an abuse of power is still a relatively rare event."
I have nothing against women but you are wrong to make excuses for women like that. Anyone who gravitates towards violence, man or woman, is wrong. It's a simple fact.
"What's really the causative factor is the war machine and how desperate people become its not always willing fodder."
Are you saying this only of women or men too?
"You obviously get your education/views/misconceptions from right wing radio. It would take years for you to catch up on a viable reading list in the interest of honestly educating your mind. Opinions are expunged of value when they're based merely on kneejerk reactions as opposed to any serious study, research, fieldwork, or attempt at learning."
I most certainly do not get what I say from right wing radio. I write based on real world experience and unless you have been living in a cave all this time, you would have seen at least some of this. Where do you live in, New York City? Why don't you stay for a year in Colorado Springs, CO where I live at and see for yourself. There's plenty of macho women all over the country who make nice guys like me feel left out. Is that something you want to laugh at?
Where do you get your research from, corporate feminist books?
Martian, take it easy. You must be new here or maybe an infrequent visitor but whichever it is, make yourself here at home. You aren't what that phoney SR paints you to be. She has problems handling disagreements so you aren't alone. You don't have to be a deep down guy. Most people here are tolerant and friendly.
SR is one of the rare ones on this site attacking dissent. I think that she got taken by your name because she is so absorbed into Mars and Venus and uses it to paint everything black and white pitting women against men. Most people don't mind though. I believe Goldenmean shares some of your views on men and women suffering equally. I hope he doesn't mind my posting the link to one of his excellent posts regarding this.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/10/14-0
He asked Rose not to get caught up like this but she has yet to listen to his advice.
Don't feel too bad about being single male. There are plenty here and they'll happy to help you out. Don't let SR insult you. She's getting to be irrelevant.
Welcome back or welcome to CD.
Peace
Thanks for the warm welcome. Whatever skirmishes you and her had, that is irrelevant. I have nothing personally against her even if she does against me for whatever reason. SR's unexpectedly harsh reply only confirmed that women can be just as equally corrupt and aggressive in nature as men. It may be easier to make men aggressive compared to women but put women in the right environment and it can be equally easy. I live in a very conservative area where people of both genders are equally aggressive in nature. That doesn't make that place "male dominated" if women are just as macho as men. I was able to get a better explanation from teddy about the male-female stereotyping and I replied to him saying why I still disagreed on the stereotyping. I understand when women getting into a war is an unusual thing as opposed to men but often not discussed is that society also pressures men to stay aggressive and it comes from both men and women. Sometimes, women can be more influential in keeping their men in war than the male superiors in the military themselves. I have met lots of military wives and girlfriends of aggressive men but I never said that all of them do it. Some military wives are reluctant to support their men in war while others are gung ho on their support. If the women who were gung ho had been reluctant at best, there is a fair chance that those men would have successfully been able to withdraw without pressure. This does not get discussed a lot but it should.
Sioux Rose
Wow. Deja vu... like you two haven't used some of the same dialog before, as if you're impartial observers. So if I'm getting "irrelevant" as you two geniuses wish to believe, then why am I the chief topic of your little tag team discussion? One thing I despise are those that traffic in deception, those who can't even BE themselves. It's a pity yet whatever your current camouflage, karma will pierce it, and in the long run you will pay a price... for granting false witness.
I don't know what you are talking about but for your own information, I am not part of a tag team. I responded to teddy, you, and Shawn and only after responding to me first. If you want to define tag teams and cause trouble, then by your own definition, you and teddy are then part of the tag team so let's drop it. I don't know what your personal problem is but we have a right to give our opinions on this forum. I see that you failed to rebuttal my rebuttal to your rude reply. Does that mean that I am right and you were wrong?
Sioux Rose
MB: I was once wisely advised never to argue with a drunk. The same holds true for an ignoramus. I am done here. My time is too precious to waste on one who cannot learn and falsely refers to what others have taken the time to elaborate upon at length. I was a teacher, and would identify you/your type as "Exhibit A" of a lost cause. Ta Ta.
You don't sound like you were a teacher at all. I proved your "male dominant" stereotype wrong and since you can't debate, you get touchy like a lost little girl. I'm beginning to see who you really are and it's obvious what your biases are. It's easy for you to tap your silly crybaby babble attacking men like a typical sexist. I don't know who you are but I bet that you had a problem with men. Problem or none, you can't keep blaming men for what's wrong with some women just like I can't keep blaming women for men's problems. Apparently, you are an example of women who take their freedoms that were granted to them by men for granted. You have plenty of time to waste with your blame the men for everything talk but you have no control of yourself. Perhaps if men and women slashed women's freedoms and rights then you would learn what freedom really is. You give women a bad name.
Sioux Rose
You and shawn played these same baseless suppositions against me in the past. Your names show up together, and you play off one another, as do others (like Nebraska Nathan, Peter Pike, and others) in your little group. If you had the intelligence to read any of my posts you'd GET that it's not about boys and girls, that is YOUR trite interpretation, and NOT based on my INTENT. What I relate is rooted in PATRIARCHAL programming. Others have recommended books for you to read to raise your consciousness, but you prefer to tout ignorance, calumny, and allegations that are not based in fact. Luckily your narrow-mindedness and endless pabulum is understood by most in this forum for what it is.
In the future, I will do my best to avoid your posts, and I'd appreciate the same in return. However, in the event that you and your buddies take my comments out of context or misconstruct them to suit your own far more unimaginative ends, I will certainly defend myself as required. Perhaps, out of basic politeness, you'll spare us both the waste of time.
"You and shawn played these same baseless suppositions against me in the past. Your names show up together, and you play off one another, as do others (like Nebraska Nathan, Peter Pike, and others) in your little group."
I never played tag team with anyone and you have nothing to back it up. My name and Shawn's name were never always together. If Shawn communicated with me at any time, it was out of coincidence and his own doing. I am not part of a group for your own information. I have only one account for your own information. I have talked to other people on this site too. Most of them don't share your anti-male bias the way you do.
"If you had the intelligence to read any of my posts you'd GET that it's not about boys and girls, that is YOUR trite interpretation, and NOT based on my INTENT. What I relate is rooted in PATRIARCHAL programming. Others have recommended books for you to read to raise your consciousness, but you prefer to tout ignorance, calumny, and allegations that are not based in fact. Luckily your narrow-mindedness and endless pabulum is understood by most in this forum for what it is. "
I don't see any intelligence coming from you or wouldn't be rambling your own gender bias bigotry. You think patriarchal programming is the root cause of all the problems but it isn't. Matriarchy can be just as bad and the confession from the female Israeli soldiers proves it. You can change every single leadership to female and nothing would change. There is nothing ignorant about that. You are making it look like everything is black and white. Most people in this forum are not defending you. Even teddy understands me very well. I had arguments with him in the past but he and I worked it out. I guess you don't know how to do the same. All you can do is name-calling and false allegations when you refuse to answer the challenge. You still haven't answered my questions I challenged you with. Even teddy knows that I am not narrow-minded compared to you. He understands that I see things independent of gender stereotyping while you keep framing it as women being the saints and men being the devils.
"In the future, I will do my best to avoid your posts, and I'd appreciate the same in return. However, in the event that you and your buddies take my comments out of context or misconstruct them to suit your own far more unimaginative ends, I will certainly defend myself as required. Perhaps, out of basic politeness, you'll spare us both the waste of time."
I don't care what you plan to do in the future. This is a public forum so ignore at your free will. It's not my problem that you have a problem with men. You had a problem with what I said about women and the military and now you are getting off topic. I challenged your "male dominance" myth but you never answered and now I see why. I don't have any "buddies" that you think I have. If you have a problem with others not agreeing with you, then fine but dividing people into groups just like dividing genders is counterproductive. Nobody owes you anything. You can pretend to be a hefty woman with your corny typing for all I care but that you are giving women a bad name by distorting the views by dividing the two genders as if it's black vs white. Go ahead and stay an ignoramus and tout your gender bias. Most women are not like you and they don't need militaristic feminists such as you. If ignorance is your strength, so be it. When women lose their freedoms that they used to take for granted thanks to militarist feminists such as you, you'll be sorry you insulted the males.
Sioux Rose
Sure SHAWN, as if you and MARTIAN aren't The Cheech & Chong gong show tag team members on this thread. Your collective understanding might fit into a thimble, so the deep cognitive waters I represent threaten your capacities. Trembling males are such a silly sight. Interesting how many posssessed of their own life experience, wisdom, and inner balance ENJOY and regularly address me in this forum. They are not threatened by concepts that may diffuse previous boundaries. Besides, Shawn is hardly new to this forum, although it seems the names your little group uses are possibly interchangable, giving the sense that the same "voice" is not the one that previously slid into the existing screen name. Nice little covert game. And typically right wing tactic to accuse ME of what you're doing. Raising consciousness is not splitting the forum into male/female, as the archetypal references I utilize go way beyond biological gender. But alas, that's taking you out into those deeper waters that both of you are terrified of entering. Much safer to cling to the shoreline and your authoritarian protocols of acceptable dialog, and try to shoot at any who venture too far out "to sea." You're boring and elementary. Go back to school.
To quote Ronald Reagan "There you go again." The facts fly over your head so you misuse Mars and Venus to justify your distorted views on everything. I have seen your archives over the years and I have seen your posts where you accuse someone of being me or tag-teaming with me which you can never prove true. You are the only trouble maker on this site and you're making yourself irrelevant the more you act like a 5 year old. You think you know me but you don't and you never will. It's easy for you to sit behind your computer every day for the past 4 years shouting and screaming but doing nothing about it. I'm not afraid of you and I'm proud to be a real man. You on the other hand are just as bad as the males you accuse of being abusive. In the real world, I doubt that you would show your strength. It's easy for you to type and show off in your self-righteous manner. You are not raising conscience by using Mars and Venus to give womanhood a bad name with your male accusing attitude. Even GoldenMean warned you about this. You might want to listen to his advice. You think I, lefty, getreal, mb, etc... are tag teams but you're wrong and nobody is coming to your defense because you are wasting your time posting more hate talk than being civil. You are not entering any deep waters. You're just sitting at the computer trying to bolster your conflated ego that you accuse others with different views that you don't like of having. What have you done outside of your computer to help the women in Israel and around the world? I can tell you my accomplishments that will make you blush. I actually helped my state legislation pass laws protecting women from domestic abuse, worker related abuse especially sexual harassment, and reproductive rights. I have helped more men and women in my community thinking progressively and positively even in Michelle Bachmann's district. Here's one more major accomplishment. I actually helped a couple of high schools reject military signing up and treachery. Anyone can post on a forum like you but let's see what you have for accomplishments that can match mine.
We continue to support Israel because Israel is in such a strategic place in the mid-east. Period. And yes, by supporting Israel, we are just as guilty as the Israelis. Some day we will pay dearly. 9/11 was nothing compared to what could happen to us as a country in the future. We can't go on doing wrong forever. I am ashamed of my country. Have been for a long time, now. If I were much younger, I would seriously consider moving to Ireland.
I am 68, a divorced female, and seriously researching South America where my daughter spent her years in the Peace Corps. I have a son and daughter-in-law in Argentina (not my choice of residence) so it wouldn't exactly be like going to Timbuktu, but it takes lots of planning and resourcefulness, & a little courage.
If I were a lot younger, I'd try to find a budding socialist like Evo Morales, marry him, and settle in fantastical Bolivia!
I'd like to visit Puma Punku, in the highlands of Bolivia, estimated to be the remnants of the oldest civilization on Earth at a staggering 17,000 years (4x's the age of the Egyptian pyramids)!
http://www.world-mysteries.com/mpl_6.htm
I remember a few years ago when the Iraq war was in full swing and the Patriot act was ramping up. There was a web site supposedly sponsored by the Brazilian embasy offering information to Americans considering moving to Brazil. Since it was logistically impossible for me to move anywhere at that time, I didn't give it much thought but it's starting to sound pretty appealing right about now.
"... because Israel is in such a strategic place in the mid-east. Period."
We now have Iraq and, partially, Afghanistan. This goes WAY beyond strategic. It's called "sucking ass for no good reason". Or rather, We The People don't know what that 'good reason' might be.
This article definitely proves the following:
A) We should not be supporting Israel unconditionally. It's OK for the United States to be allies with Israel, but the USA should not be giving Israel a blank check to continue policies that're clearly NOT in THEIR best interests (i. e. their occupation of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East jerusalem) any more than it is for the Palestinians living under the occupation.
B) When women are put in positions of power, they can, and unfortunately, all too often, act just the same as, or even worse than, many men.
C) When people constantly degrade others, they also degrade themselves in the process.
Sioux Rose
INDPT: As to your (B) comment: the positons of power you seem to be relating also belong to a network that's based on racism. It's not that women are easily corruptible, it's that if a social entity establishes itself around a constantly embedded rationale of violence, those conditioned to accord with that species of programming will reflect its character. Thus the love of power, or need for validation from one's fellow "prisoners of corruption" can overwhelm reason, conscience, and what's left of compassion.
Much conditioning on our planet has taken place in accord with societal models that have been long established while granting privilege to a few at the expense of the many. Between the pervasive belief in a punishing patriarchal god, the percentage of persons that naturally gravitate towards authoritarian systems, and governments (particularly our own, with Israel acting likewise) that exalt military "solutions," the result becomes asymmetrical people, those who are wounded and capable of wounding others.
There are alternatives to "Mars rules."
"...It's not that women are easily corruptible ..."
Actually, women are just as easily or more corrupted than men. Check out the female congress critters. There is equal corruption in both genders.
"...patriarchal god..."
That is a misnomer. It is either God or Goddess.
this is demonstrated to be true.
but Sioux Rose makes a WISE point in that -- if or while women CAN are have been as corrupted as men when in positions of power -- it is from wanting to or behaving LIKE men in a world or structure in society that gives glory to "MAN" behavior...
it's a form of "keeping up with the joneses" to be accepted as "leader".
take Hillary Clinton -- she is just as warmongering as anyone...lately beginning to literally THREATEN china for instance...with WHAT exactly? what is BEHIND her? the MALE CREATED WARRIOR society of the USA.
take Madeleine Albright :
:"a million dead iraqis? it was worth it" (the sanctions for a decade under clinton) ...."what is this Great ARmy of ours worth unless you can use it?"
but let us NOT forget -- THESE are MALE dominated organizations. male DEFINED. WAR defined.
and so -- the women who step INTO them - become PART of it.
it is not because "the feminine" LOVES war.
and that's what Sioux Rose points out so well , very often.
in fact - it is no different from women going out with their boyfriends and husbands to a football game, or a boxing match, or some other brutality game...to ensure that they "belong" and their "GUY" won't forget they are THERE..so they participate in the guy's brutal needs to stay "relevant" ...sort of they have to LIKE what HE likes so he will "love them" for "liking what he likes and supports him" in his fancies.
but that operates in a male -defined society .
on the other hand -- do we often or regularly see MOTHERS teach their children to shoot? or beat up someone for sport or "athletics" - or to feel important?
very often -- women's best abilities are COERCED by society to be the "support" for the males - which includes to "agree" or be TACIT in approval - or at worst - NOT SAY ANYTHING against it ...when the males want violence and destruction and "competition" to see who's the biggest, baddest, and meanest.
imagine again what the greek women in ancient times did :when theygot sick and tired of all the fighting and "warring" by the men:
in the greek play "LYSISTRATA" - the women put an end to war by denying the men -- sex.
teddy, great!
While you make a valid point, sometimes I don't get comfortable with the term "male dominated" because it often is used as a negative connotation. I understand that men used to be attend a class where I am the only male and every woman is taking advantage of the fact that I am the only guy, then that would be female dominated similar to male dominated. I understand the coercion that women are pushed through in society but just because nobody is discussing that men are also pushed through equal coercion doesn't mean that it isn't happening. As I see it, it is easier to coerce women into submission than it is on men but that doesn't mean it's not happening to men. It is also easier to coerce men into aggression and keep them there than it is on women which may explain why women get underestimated when in a war as opposed to men. Women are also capable of exploiting that weakness to consider macho men sexy compared to gentle nature men or forcing their male partners to keep up their inherent aggression to look strong enough fearing that they will be looked down as the female partner being strong than the male partner. Aggression can be verbal or physical. You said that mothers don't teach their children to be physically aggressive compared to fathers. While that may be true, mothers usually teach their children to talk tough and be manipulated more than men. Women have been known to play a great role in helping men end the wars but if the men are not yet sick and tired of fighting, then women will still resign themselves to letting the wars continue unless they can find the best way to convince their men out of it or the men see for themselves and draw to a peace. We see a lot of violence from men on the television and more men in prison but violence from women doesn't get as much attention so we don't know how big or small the gender gap is on violence. We do see a lot of women fighting women too especially on trying to vie for which man will accept them. To be fair, women as opposed to men will engage in a verbal conflict before it goes physical into catfights. In that case, either they get tired of fighting by themselves or the man tries to end the fighting. Historically, women have been more successful at ending wars and fighting compared to men but those trends may have been caused by society pressuring men to stay aggressive as opposed to women. Therefore, it is wrong to stereotype men as the aggressive party over women.
Sioux Rose
MB: You are not supposed to be COMFORTABLE with the notion of male domination because the premise IS uncomfortable. Should the white racist be comfortable noting his malignant views, or spared castigation because he's too ignorant to recognize them?
Your central problem is you view matters from THIS moment without the slightest understanding (or inclination TO understand) of how the past has shaped this moment, and the persons within it, value systems included. Society DOES pressure men to be aggressive, but it also tends to reward women for staying home and being passive (to get a husband). And if they seek a niche in big business or government, they'd better show they are ready, willing, and able to adapt to the corruption of the mighty who of late have obliterated the constitution, Geneva Conventions, and all rules of FAIR play. The nation is facing bankruptcy in many arenas, not the least of which is in its doctrines of purported fairness.
To use as example that minority that adapts to the corrupt system in place is to miss the understanding of all the deeper factors at work, and how these impact the lives of the vast majority. That's a covert way to lend legitimacy to a very messed up status quo. You are its apologist.
"You are not supposed to be COMFORTABLE with the notion of male domination because the premise IS uncomfortable. Should the white racist be comfortable noting his malignant views, or spared castigation because he's too ignorant to recognize them?"
What are you calling male domination when female domination exists as well? If history had a female domination that was just as uncomfortable, what would you have said?
"Your central problem is you view matters from THIS moment without the slightest understanding (or inclination TO understand) of how the past has shaped this moment, and the persons within it, value systems included. Society DOES pressure men to be aggressive, but it also tends to reward women for staying home and being passive (to get a husband). And if they seek a niche in big business or government, they'd better show they are ready, willing, and able to adapt to the corruption of the mighty who of late have obliterated the constitution, Geneva Conventions, and all rules of FAIR play. The nation is facing bankruptcy in many arenas, not the least of which is in its doctrines of purported fairness."
No, I base it on history and current events. Society used to reward women for staying home and being passive but that is no longer the case. Men and women are equally corrupt in both government and business. That is the current status. You cannot blame yesterday's aggressive men for today's aggressive women. Economic failures have nothing to do with gender. Greed is greed independent of sex.
"To use as example that minority that adapts to the corrupt system in place is to miss the understanding of all the deeper factors at work, and how these impact the lives of the vast majority. That's a covert way to lend legitimacy to a very messed up status quo. You are its apologist."
By your definition, you are also an apologist for the status quo for having voted for Obama while I voted for Nader. Do you support the feminist groups who campaigned for Obama and still support his march into Afghanistan? If so, then you are an apologist for the status quo. Replacing a male dictator with a female dictator who is no different is not changing the status quo just like replacing Bush with Obama.
Ms. Sioux Rose;
You are doing it again, battling and fighting in a aggressive nature. You could be out there in front of those Army Recruiters talking men and women out of joining the Army.
If I told you again that men are at least 60% guilty of War making, would you want to argue that they are closer to 90% responsible?
Are women smarter than men? There is a old song from the 70's that goes "The women are smarter, smarter than a man in every way." Just saying the 100% thing, already makes this person singing the song stupid.
WHY? Again people are often stupid and sometimes smart. Making war, even with words against people who are really not the problem is not smart.
May we use are time more fruitfully.
Thank you. I understand from teddy what Sioux meant sort of but I think that she is tying machoism to masculine. Being masculine is about strength and boldness and doesn't include aggression while machoism does. I know it's easy to confuse the two. I wish her well despite our brief skirmish. All I have to say is stereotyping men and women must go.
Sioux Rose
TEDDY: Thank you. You did a very good job relating what my posts mean, whereas some, who haven't the intellect or sensitivity to do so, utterly alter the content to fit their small minds and tightly shut hearts.
You are a credit to the forum for your humanity.
Sioux Rose;
My "B" comment points out something that occurs not only in Israel and the United States, but throughout the world. While racism exists, sexism frequently co-exists right along with it. Women throughout the world also face sexism and have often felt the need to overcompromise and prove that they're just as tough and strong as the men, if not more so. This kind of pressure has had disastrous consequences, as the behaviour of many Israeli women soldiers towards the Palestinians indicate.
Amira Hass should have a daily op-ed on a national network news show to demostrate to Americans what is really going on in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. She has reported on the Israeli attrocities in Gaza for years.
Forcing women and MEN to humiliate Palestinian neighbors under an apartheid system is an abomination.
"Forcing women and MEN to humiliate Palestinian neighbors under an apartheid system is an abomination."
ISRAEL is an abomination! Welcome to AmeriKKKa!!!
If all Israeli youth must eventually do some kind of military service, it makes one wonder what kind of a person the IDF returns to civil society and what kind of future citizen that person will make. Aggressive and brutal? Or psychologically wounded for life? When have governments ever thought that far ahead?
It is such a sad irony that as they deform the souls of their young people by encouraging them to abuse the Palestinians, the people of Israel become more and more like the Nazis.
"The trouble with Eichmann was precisely that so many were like him, and that the many were neither perverted nor sadistic, that they were, and still are, terribly and terrifyingly normal. From the viewpoint of our legal institutions and of our moral standards of judgment, this normality was much more terrifying than all the atrocities put together. " --Hannah Arendt
I remember an old jewish man, 2 years ago , when israel attacked gaza and escalated for weeks such a brutal campaign...
and we were both watching the news coverage...and he said:
"my people, the jews were brutalized in the second world war....i never dreamed that now - it's my own people that have become the Nazis..this IS a holocaust against the Palestinians...i am very old and sick, and now I will die a second death and sadness to see what my own people in israel have become".
and he was literally shaking and trembling and crying as he said that.
I think your post answers itself.
But -
When has a country this tiny ever had such a superior military and intelligence (or whatever you'd call mossad) in place? It's only because of back-up from a larger country.
You have to ask: what, exactly, does this tiny country have over us, our (so called) super-power, that make us unquestioningly support them?
That's the question I can never quite find an answer to.
So, yes, they seem to have thought that far ahead.
"A country is no better than its' women."
interesting quote... who said that?
It is no surprise that the Israeli Defense Forces encourage brutality towards Palestinians, and no surprise that the IDF takes full advantage of the two to three years most Israelis spend in the IDF (military service is compulsory for men and women) to shape their attitudes toward Palestinians.
This time of compulsory service in the IDF is a sort of finishing school for Israelis, in which the frosting is put on the cake of their racist and sociopathic attitudes toward the Palestinians.
It is necessary to shape the attitudes of young Israelis in this way, so that they will continue to support Israel's slow-motion holocaust and genocide against the Palestinians, and Israel's never-ending theft of Palestinian land and water resources.
Forty-one years ago, I (then at school) had a conversation with a Catholic priest who had just returned from Israel. This was two years after the 1967 war, and he told me of the appalling brutality of Israeli soldiers towards the Palestinians they had just conquered. He had witnessed Palestinian civilians being beaten up at the Allenby Bridge by Israeli soldiers ("and when you're beaten up by a trained soldier, you stay beaten up," he said). No one has stopped this abuse since then, and whole genrations have grown up duly brutalised.
i remember in the seventies, an "israel"i airman gloating to me with pleasure, remembering how he had napalmed fleeing egyptian soldiers...