Unexceptional Americans: Why We Can't See the Trees or the Forest
The Torture Memos and Historical Amnesia
The torture memos released by the White House elicited shock, indignation, and surprise. The shock and indignation are understandable. The surprise, less so.
For one thing, even without inquiry, it was reasonable to suppose that Guantanamo was a torture chamber. Why else send prisoners where they would be beyond the reach of the law -- a place, incidentally, that Washington is using in violation of a treaty forced on Cuba at the point of a gun? Security reasons were, of course, alleged, but they remain hard to take seriously. The same expectations held for the Bush administration's "black sites," or secret prisons, and for extraordinary rendition, and they were fulfilled.
More importantly, torture has been routinely practiced from the early days of the conquest of the national territory, and continued to be used as the imperial ventures of the "infant empire" -- as George Washington called the new republic -- extended to the Philippines, Haiti, and elsewhere. Keep in mind as well that torture was the least of the many crimes of aggression, terror, subversion, and economic strangulation that have darkened U.S. history, much as in the case of other great powers.
Accordingly, what's surprising is to see the reactions to the release of those Justice Department memos, even by some of the most eloquent and forthright critics of Bush malfeasance: Paul Krugman, for example, writing that we used to be "a nation of moral ideals" and never before Bush "have our leaders so utterly betrayed everything our nation stands for." To say the least, that common view reflects a rather slanted version of American history.
Occasionally the conflict between "what we stand for" and "what we do" has been forthrightly addressed. One distinguished scholar who undertook the task at hand was Hans Morgenthau, a founder of realist international relations theory. In a classic study published in 1964 in the glow of Camelot, Morgenthau developed the standard view that the U.S. has a "transcendent purpose": establishing peace and freedom at home and indeed everywhere, since "the arena within which the United States must defend and promote its purpose has become world-wide." But as a scrupulous scholar, he also recognized that the historical record was radically inconsistent with that "transcendent purpose."
We should not be misled by that discrepancy, advised Morgenthau; we should not "confound the abuse of reality with reality itself." Reality is the unachieved "national purpose" revealed by "the evidence of history as our minds reflect it." What actually happened was merely the "abuse of reality."
The release of the torture memos led others to recognize the problem. In the New York Times, columnist Roger Cohen reviewed a new book, The Myth of American Exceptionalism, by British journalist Geoffrey Hodgson, who concludes that the U.S. is "just one great, but imperfect, country among others." Cohen agrees that the evidence supports Hodgson's judgment, but nonetheless regards as fundamentally mistaken Hodgson's failure to understand that "America was born as an idea, and so it has to carry that idea forward." The American idea is revealed in the country's birth as a "city on a hill," an "inspirational notion" that resides "deep in the American psyche," and by "the distinctive spirit of American individualism and enterprise" demonstrated in the Western expansion. Hodgson's error, it seems, is that he is keeping to "the distortions of the American idea," "the abuse of reality."
Let us then turn to "reality itself": the "idea" of America from its earliest days.
"Come Over and Help Us"
The inspirational phrase "city on a hill" was coined by John Winthrop in 1630, borrowing from the Gospels, and outlining the glorious future of a new nation "ordained by God." One year earlier his Massachusetts Bay Colony created its Great Seal. It depicted an Indian with a scroll coming out of his mouth. On that scroll are the words "Come over and help us." The British colonists were thus pictured as benevolent humanists, responding to the pleas of the miserable natives to be rescued from their bitter pagan fate.
The Great Seal is, in fact, a graphic representation of "the idea of America," from its birth. It should be exhumed from the depths of the psyche and displayed on the walls of every classroom. It should certainly appear in the background of all of the Kim Il-Sung-style worship of that savage murderer and torturer Ronald Reagan, who blissfully described himself as the leader of a "shining city on the hill," while orchestrating some of the more ghastly crimes of his years in office, notoriously in Central America but elsewhere as well.
The Great Seal was an early proclamation of "humanitarian intervention," to use the currently fashionable phrase. As has commonly been the case since, the "humanitarian intervention" led to a catastrophe for the alleged beneficiaries. The first Secretary of War, General Henry Knox, described "the utter extirpation of all the Indians in most populous parts of the Union" by means "more destructive to the Indian natives than the conduct of the conquerors of Mexico and Peru."
Long after his own significant contributions to the process were past, John Quincy Adams deplored the fate of "that hapless race of native Americans, which we are exterminating with such merciless and perfidious cruelty... among the heinous sins of this nation, for which I believe God will one day bring [it] to judgement." The "merciless and perfidious cruelty" continued until "the West was won." Instead of God's judgment, the heinous sins today bring only praise for the fulfillment of the American "idea."
The conquest and settling of the West indeed showed that "individualism and enterprise," so praised by Roger Cohen. Settler-colonialist enterprises, the cruelest form of imperialism, commonly do. The results were hailed by the respected and influential Senator Henry Cabot Lodge in 1898. Calling for intervention in Cuba, Lodge lauded our record "of conquest, colonization, and territorial expansion unequalled by any people in the 19th century," and urged that it is "not to be curbed now," as the Cubans too were pleading, in the Great Seal's words, "come over and help us."
Their plea was answered. The U.S. sent troops, thereby preventing Cuba's liberation from Spain and turning it into a virtual colony, as it remained until 1959.
The "American idea" was illustrated further by the remarkable campaign,
initiated by the Eisenhower administration virtually at once to restore
Cuba to its proper place, after Fidel Castro entered Havana in January
1959, finally liberating the island from foreign domination, with
enormous popular support, as Washington ruefully conceded. What
followed was economic warfare with the clearly articulated aim of
punishing the Cuban population so that they would overthrow the
disobedient Castro government, invasion, the dedication of the Kennedy
brothers to bringing "the terrors of the earth" to Cuba (the phrase of
historian Arthur Schlesinger in his biography of Robert Kennedy, who
considered that task one of his highest priorities), and other crimes
continuing to the present, in defiance of virtually unanimous world
opinion.
American imperialism is often traced to the takeover of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Hawaii in 1898. But that is to succumb to what historian of imperialism Bernard Porter calls "the saltwater fallacy," the idea that conquest only becomes imperialism when it crosses saltwater. Thus, if the Mississippi had resembled the Irish Sea, Western expansion would have been imperialism. From George Washington to Henry Cabot Lodge, those engaged in the enterprise had a clearer grasp of just what they were doing.
After the success of humanitarian intervention in Cuba in 1898, the next step in the mission assigned by Providence was to confer "the blessings of liberty and civilization upon all the rescued peoples" of the Philippines (in the words of the platform of Lodge's Republican party) -- at least those who survived the murderous onslaught and widespread use of torture and other atrocities that accompanied it. These fortunate souls were left to the mercies of the U.S.-established Philippine constabulary within a newly devised model of colonial domination, relying on security forces trained and equipped for sophisticated modes of surveillance, intimidation, and violence. Similar models would be adopted in many other areas where the U.S. imposed brutal National Guards and other client forces.
The Torture Paradigm
Over the past 60 years, victims worldwide have endured the CIA's "torture paradigm," developed at a cost that reached $1 billion annually, according to historian Alfred McCoy in his book A Question of Torture. He shows how torture methods the CIA developed from the 1950s surfaced with little change in the infamous photos at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. There is no hyperbole in the title of Jennifer Harbury's penetrating study of the U.S. torture record: Truth, Torture, and the American Way. So it is highly misleading, to say the least, when investigators of the Bush gang's descent into the global sewers lament that "in waging the war against terrorism, America had lost its way."
None of this is to say that Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld et al. did not introduce important innovations. In ordinary American practice, torture was largely farmed out to subsidiaries, not carried out by Americans directly in their own government-established torture chambers. As Allan Nairn, who has carried out some of the most revealing and courageous investigations of torture, points out: "What the Obama [ban on torture] ostensibly knocks off is that small percentage of torture now done by Americans while retaining the overwhelming bulk of the system's torture, which is done by foreigners under U.S. patronage. Obama could stop backing foreign forces that torture, but he has chosen not to do so."
Obama did not shut down the practice of torture, Nairn observes, but "merely repositioned it," restoring it to the American norm, a matter of indifference to the victims. "[H]is is a return to the status quo ante," writes Nairn, "the torture regime of Ford through Clinton, which, year by year, often produced more U.S.-backed strapped-down agony than was produced during the Bush/Cheney years."
Sometimes the American engagement in torture was even more indirect. In a 1980 study, Latin Americanist Lars Schoultz found that U.S. aid "has tended to flow disproportionately to Latin American governments which torture their citizens,... to the hemisphere's relatively egregious violators of fundamental human rights." Broader studies by Edward Herman found the same correlation, and also suggested an explanation. Not surprisingly, U.S. aid tends to correlate with a favorable climate for business operations, commonly improved by the murder of labor and peasant organizers and human rights activists and other such actions, yielding a secondary correlation between aid and egregious violation of human rights.
These studies took place before the Reagan years, when the topic was not worth studying because the correlations were so clear.
Small wonder that President Obama advises us to look forward, not backward -- a convenient doctrine for those who hold the clubs. Those who are beaten by them tend to see the world differently, much to our annoyance.
Adopting Bush's Positions
An argument can be made that implementation of the CIA's "torture paradigm" never violated the 1984 Torture Convention, at least as Washington interpreted it. McCoy points out that the highly sophisticated CIA paradigm developed at enormous cost in the 1950s and 1960s, based on the "KGB's most devastating torture technique," kept primarily to mental torture, not crude physical torture, which was considered less effective in turning people into pliant vegetables.
McCoy writes that the Reagan administration then carefully revised the International Torture Convention "with four detailed diplomatic 'reservations' focused on just one word in the convention's 26-printed pages," the word "mental." He continues: "These intricately-constructed diplomatic reservations re-defined torture, as interpreted by the United States, to exclude sensory deprivation and self-inflicted pain -- the very techniques the CIA had refined at such great cost."
When Clinton sent the UN Convention to Congress for ratification in 1994, he included the Reagan reservations. The president and Congress therefore exempted the core of the CIA torture paradigm from the U.S. interpretation of the Torture Convention; and those reservations, McCoy observes, were "reproduced verbatim in domestic legislation enacted to give legal force to the UN Convention." That is the "political land mine" that "detonated with such phenomenal force" in the Abu Ghraib scandal and in the shameful Military Commissions Act that was passed with bipartisan support in 2006.
Bush, of course, went beyond his predecessors in authorizing prima facie violations of international law, and several of his extremist innovations were struck down by the Courts. While Obama, like Bush, eloquently affirms our unwavering commitment to international law, he seems intent on substantially reinstating the extremist Bush measures. In the important case of Boumediene v. Bush in June 2008, the Supreme Court rejected as unconstitutional the Bush administration claim that prisoners in Guantanamo are not entitled to the right of habeas corpus.
Salon.com columnist Glenn Greenwald reviews the aftermath. Seeking to "preserve the power to abduct people from around the world" and imprison them without due process, the Bush administration decided to ship them to the U.S. prison at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan, treating "the Boumediene ruling, grounded in our most basic constitutional guarantees, as though it was some sort of a silly game -- fly your abducted prisoners to Guantanamo and they have constitutional rights, but fly them instead to Bagram and you can disappear them forever with no judicial process."
Obama adopted the Bush position, "filing a brief in federal court that, in two sentences, declared that it embraced the most extremist Bush theory on this issue," arguing that prisoners flown to Bagram from anywhere in the world (in the case in question, Yemenis and Tunisians captured in Thailand and the United Arab Emirates) "can be imprisoned indefinitely with no rights of any kind -- as long as they are kept in Bagram rather than Guantanamo."
In March, however, a Bush-appointed federal judge "rejected the Bush/Obama position and held that the rationale of Boumediene applies every bit as much to Bagram as it does to Guantanamo." The Obama administration announced that it would appeal the ruling, thus placing Obama's Department of Justice, Greenwald concludes, "squarely to the Right of an extremely conservative, pro-executive-power, Bush 43-appointed judge on issues of executive power and due-process-less detentions," in radical violation of Obama's campaign promises and earlier stands.
The case of Rasul v. Rumsfeld appears to be following a similar trajectory. The plaintiffs charged that Rumsfeld and other high officials were responsible for their torture in Guantanamo, where they were sent after being captured by Uzbeki warlord Rashid Dostum. The plaintiffs claimed that they had traveled to Afghanistan to offer humanitarian relief. Dostum, a notorious thug, was then a leader of the Northern Alliance, the Afghan faction supported by Russia, Iran, India, Turkey, and the Central Asian states, and the U.S. as it attacked Afghanistan in October 2001.
Dostum turned them over to U.S. custody, allegedly for bounty money. The Bush administration sought to have the case dismissed. Recently, Obama's Department of Justice filed a brief supporting the Bush position that government officials are not liable for torture and other violations of due process, on the grounds that the Courts had not yet clearly established the rights that prisoners enjoy.
It is also reported that the Obama administration intends to revive military commissions, one of the more severe violations of the rule of law during the Bush years. There is a reason, according to William Glaberson of the New York Times: "Officials who work on the Guantanamo issue say administration lawyers have become concerned that they would face significant obstacles to trying some terrorism suspects in federal courts. Judges might make it difficult to prosecute detainees who were subjected to brutal treatment or for prosecutors to use hearsay evidence gathered by intelligence agencies." A serious flaw in the criminal justice system, it appears.
Creating Terrorists
There is still much debate about whether torture has been effective in eliciting information -- the assumption being, apparently, that if it is effective, then it may be justified. By the same argument, when Nicaragua captured U.S. pilot Eugene Hasenfuss in 1986, after shooting down his plane delivering aid to U.S.-supported Contra forces, they should not have tried him, found him guilty, and then sent him back to the U.S., as they did. Instead, they should have applied the CIA torture paradigm to try to extract information about other terrorist atrocities being planned and implemented in Washington, no small matter for a tiny, impoverished country under terrorist attack by the global superpower.
By the same standards, if the Nicaraguans had been able to capture the chief terrorism coordinator, John Negroponte, then U.S. ambassador in Honduras (later appointed as the first Director of National Intelligence, essentially counterterrorism czar, without eliciting a murmur), they should have done the same. Cuba would have been justified in acting similarly, had the Castro government been able to lay hands on the Kennedy brothers. There is no need to bring up what their victims should have done to Henry Kissinger, Ronald Reagan, and other leading terrorist commanders, whose exploits leave al-Qaeda in the dust, and who doubtless had ample information that could have prevented further "ticking bomb" attacks.
Such considerations never seem to arise in public discussion.
There is, to be sure, a response: our terrorism, even if surely terrorism, is benign, deriving as it does from the city on the hill.
Perhaps culpability would be greater, by prevailing moral standards, if it were discovered that Bush administration torture had cost American lives. That is, in fact, the conclusion drawn by Major Matthew Alexander [a pseudonym], one of the most seasoned U.S. interrogators in Iraq, who elicited "the information that led to the US military being able to locate Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the head of al-Qa'ida in Iraq," correspondent Patrick Cockburn reports.
Alexander expresses only contempt for the Bush administration's harsh interrogation methods: "The use of torture by the U.S.," he believes, not only elicits no useful information but "has proved so counter-productive that it may have led to the death of as many U.S. soldiers as civilians killed in 9/11." From hundreds of interrogations, Alexander discovered that foreign fighters came to Iraq in reaction to the abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, and that they and their domestic allies turned to suicide bombing and other terrorist acts for the same reasons.
There is also mounting evidence that the torture methods Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld encouraged created terrorists. One carefully studied case is that of Abdallah al-Ajmi, who was locked up in Guantanamo on the charge of "engaging in two or three fire fights with the Northern Alliance." He ended up in Afghanistan after having failed to reach Chechnya to fight against the Russians.
After four years of brutal treatment in Guantanamo, he was returned to Kuwait. He later found his way to Iraq and, in March 2008, drove a bomb-laden truck into an Iraqi military compound, killing himself and 13 soldiers -- "the single most heinous act of violence committed by a former Guantanamo detainee," according to the Washington Post, and according to his lawyer, the direct result of his abusive imprisonment.
All much as a reasonable person would expect.
Unexceptional Americans
Another standard pretext for torture is the context: the "war on terror" that Bush declared after 9/11. A crime that rendered traditional international law "quaint" and "obsolete" -- so George W. Bush was advised by his legal counsel Alberto Gonzales, later appointed Attorney General. The doctrine has been widely reiterated in one form or another in commentary and analysis.
The 9/11 attack was doubtless unique in many respects. One is where the guns were pointing: typically it is in the opposite direction. In fact, it was the first attack of any consequence on the national territory of the United States since the British burned down Washington in 1814.
Another unique feature was the scale of terror perpetrated by a non-state actor.
Horrifying as it was, however, it could have been worse. Suppose that the perpetrators had bombed the White House, killed the president, and established a vicious military dictatorship that killed 50,000 to 100,000 people and tortured 700,000, set up a huge international terror center that carried out assassinations and helped impose comparable military dictatorships elsewhere, and implemented economic doctrines that so radically dismantled the economy that the state had to virtually take it over a few years later.
That would indeed have been far worse than September 11, 2001. And it happened in Salvador Allende's Chile in what Latin Americans often call "the first 9/11" in 1973. (The numbers above were changed to per-capita U.S. equivalents, a realistic way of measuring crimes.) Responsibility for the military coup against Allende can be traced straight back to Washington. Accordingly, the otherwise quite appropriate analogy is out of consciousness here in the U.S., while the facts are consigned to the "abuse of reality" that the naïve call "history."
It should also be recalled that Bush did not declare the "war on terror," he re-declared it. Twenty years earlier, President Reagan's administration came into office declaring that a centerpiece of its foreign policy would be a war on terror, "the plague of the modern age" and "a return to barbarism in our time" -- to sample the fevered rhetoric of the day.
That first U.S. war on terror has also been deleted from historical consciousness, because the outcome cannot readily be incorporated into the canon: hundreds of thousands slaughtered in the ruined countries of Central America and many more elsewhere, among them an estimated 1.5 million dead in the terrorist wars sponsored in neighboring countries by Reagan's favored ally, apartheid South Africa, which had to defend itself from Nelson Mandela's African National Congress (ANC), one of the world's "more notorious terrorist groups," as Washington determined in 1988. In fairness, it should be added that, 20 years later, Congress voted to remove the ANC from the list of terrorist organizations, so that Mandela is now, at last, able to enter the U.S. without obtaining a waiver from the government.
The reigning doctrine of the country is sometimes called "American exceptionalism." It is nothing of the sort. It is probably close to a universal habit among imperial powers. France was hailing its "civilizing mission" in its colonies, while the French Minister of War called for "exterminating the indigenous population" of Algeria. Britain's nobility was a "novelty in the world," John Stuart Mill declared, while urging that this angelic power delay no longer in completing its liberation of India.
Similarly, there is no reason to doubt the sincerity of Japanese militarists in the 1930s, who were bringing an "earthly paradise" to China under benign Japanese tutelage, as they carried out the rape of Nanking and their "burn all, loot all, kill all" campaigns in rural North China. History is replete with similar glorious episodes.
As long as such "exceptionalist" theses remain firmly implanted, however, the occasional revelations of the "abuse of history" often backfire, serving only to efface terrible crimes. The My Lai massacre was a mere footnote to the vastly greater atrocities of the post-Tet pacification programs, ignored while indignation in this country was largely focused on this single crime.
Watergate was doubtless criminal, but the furor over it displaced incomparably worse crimes at home and abroad, including the FBI-organized assassination of black organizer Fred Hampton as part of the infamous COINTELPRO repression, or the bombing of Cambodia, to mention just two egregious examples. Torture is hideous enough; the invasion of Iraq was a far worse crime. Quite commonly, selective atrocities have this function.
Historical amnesia is a dangerous phenomenon, not only because it undermines moral and intellectual integrity, but also because it lays the groundwork for crimes that still lie ahead.
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303 Comments so far
Show AllTraumatic amnesia is often transient, but may be permanent of either anterograde, retrograde, or mixed type. The extent of the period covered by the amnesia is related to the degree of injury and may give an indication of the prognosis for recovery of other functions.
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AWAKE ALERT: Let's hope that Thomas More becomes Thomas Less...
this guy is just yanking the chain... a born
troublemaker who thrives on seeing people get outraged
by his outrageous comments... I'm sure it makes his
day to have people spend their time refuting his
anti-social thoughts ...
Ignore him because he's nothing but a jester
who laughs at how much indignation he can stir up...
First, they say America is not exceptional. Then, they saw we need to be held to a higher standard. Which one is it?
This is a typical Noam Chomsky article: brilliant, with a long, accurate and discriminating memory of history. He is a gift to the American progressive citizenry.
Each day that goes by and decision made by Obama and his administration reinforces the idea of the unexceptional American...in particular one Barrack Obama.
So far, I don't see any difference between what has been done and what Bill Clinton would have done.
I know that change takes time, but after this recent series of decisions, does anyone still feel the sense of hope they felt on election night?
Noam Chomsky is merely pointing out the folly of one Petri dish culture of Streptococcus fomenting that it is better than another Petri dish culture of Streptococcus. It's all just Streptococcus.
Just as one group of Homo sapiens living in one place is no different than another group of Homo sapiens living somewhere else. It's all just Homo sapiens.
All life-forms invariably seek to dominate the environment. Every species is programed to do so. This is the primitive source that drives the battle between species and among species.
For any non-believers, please explain World Wars I and II? Or rather just explain War in general? War between Homo sapiens? War between Streptococcus?
So the real question to be pondered....are we really civilized? Whatever that means? Or are we exactly the same as every other species on the planet?
Meaning that we will consume, multiply and conquer all other species on the planet just like any other species would.
Has that which we treasure so highly, our intelligence, distinguished us from any so-called more primitive species so far in this respect?
Noam Chomsky was merely disrupting the denial. The truth is that we will likely dominate the planet and destroy all other species and then destroy ourselves.
Just like the Brewer's Yeast does with every batch of beer brewed so far!
Grasshopper
Ah yes, the "moral nihilism" Chris Hedges spoke of in his recent article The Disease Of Permanent War. If interested in answering your questions try downing a lot of raw garlic while filling the diet with raw vegetables, take a few coffee enemas (no! not with cream and sugar! you're purging the liver not continuing to intoxicate it!), douse your insides with the living vitality of fresh wheatgrass (and other green drinks, see Gerson/Wigmore), carrot and granny smith apple juices, participate in 10-100 awareness through movement lessons, take some walks in the forest. After restructuring yourself to the truth of life's force your questions about civility will be answered. Sure the sensations of the course destructive and seemingly suicidal part of humanities non-civility will be magnified, but you'll have your answers, and, perhaps more importantly for all of us, your particular "cloak" of moral nihilism will begin to fray.
You sound just like my wife - all health and emotional and psychologicl problems are due to a non raw-food diet and vague, unspecified "toxins" and "parasites" in the liver and bowels (plus "plaque" in the bowels) - that are cleased through wheat grass spirluina and Khombucha!
But yes, I find such moral nihilism to be pretty disgusting too.
As well as missing the mention of how re-integration with "society" might go, you by pass two other integral aspects that move the argument far past mere natural hygine: "... participate in 10-100 awareness through movement lessons, take some walks in the forest."
...
No morality intended Puck Twain.
It just seems to me that, to be cliché, go forth and multiply, is what the ecosystem does.
I like your suggestion of growing closer to the ecosystem in search of enlightenment. Well done!
That just leaves our intelligence in question. What do you think? Is it an asset or a handicap? Perhaps neither?
Take it easy on me, I'm beginning to picture myself in an unflattering light.
Grasshopper
Intelligence is...
If we recognize our inseparable interweave within the "ecosystem", then a just organic morality arises via humanly inherent energy economy scales and presents itself within our human understanding, we then use our intelligence to carry out the moral understanding. So I'll go farther then saying "intelligence is" because we've (as a predominate methodology in the collective) placed the intellect above and in front of the ecosystem understanding, even creating moralities out pure abstraction; Bush's dehumanizing "evil, inherently evil" mantra is right up there with Hitler's "poisoned blood" crusade as the grossest examples of pure fantastical abstract thought.
Thus to me it's not moralizing itself that's the challenge but when moralizing becomes nihilistic in the face of the Bush/Cheney's and Hitler's in our good company; when I look in the mirror and find myself doing such I like to find someone who is doing it too and call them on it: this forces me to "pull a cork out", hold and raise myself to the greater good (abundance of the ecosystem) - this especially happens when someone else engages - thanks for helping to spread the light!
Puck,
I couldn't agree more with your point about "our inseparable interweave within the ecosystem". It seems to me that we have lost the knowledge of our ancestors regarding this immutable fact of life. We seem to no longer be concerned about the fact that those species at the apex of the food chain, are therefore also the most dependent on the general health of the ecosystem. It is the ecosystem beneath them/us that supports them/us.
I'd like to be able to argue that we live as though we are interdependent upon each other, the ecosystem and ourselves, but I suspect that we have been extracting far more from the ecosystem than we have been contributing to it lately. Of course, interdependency is how it should be. Interdependency suggests balance, balance being a healthy state of affairs from my point of view, when measured upon the scales of the "common good (abundance of the ecosystem)".
My original post (having failed miserably in it's message) was meant to suggest, that incumbent with our intelligence, technology and increasing ascent towards the position of planetary administrators, comes the responsibility of planetary stewardship as well.
What I also meant to suggest is that fighting amongst each other and placing our "intellect above and in front of the ecosystem" does not reflect well on our administrative and stewardship inclinations when measured upon the scales of the "common good (abundance of the ecosystem)" . Perhaps making us no better administrators or stewards than brewer's yeast?
In summary, I agree with your point, intelligence is....
Perhaps a better question to contemplate from me might have been, will our intelligence simply be used as our tool to enhance our self-serving instinct's, in the same way species without the benefit and influence of our intelligence employ their own unique gifts to better their own lot in life? Or will we grow wiser with time, becoming cognizant of "our inseparable interweave within the ecosystem" and assuming the role of beneficent stewards of the planet, commensurate with the scope of our influence on the planet and the ecosystem? Or perhaps something outside the narrow range of possibilities I listed?
On reconsideration....I believe you were right all along on the "morality" point in my posts. My apologies.
As for the "nihilism" component...I'll have to think about that some more, but for now, I plead not-guilty.
Best Regards
Grasshopper
"I plead not-guilty."
Based on the evidence presented here, I have to concur.
I like your use of the word "administrative" for our link, via our structure with development of our cortex, with the ecosystem. I have difficulty with the "steward" word, maybe because "the Church" uses that word in it's environmental talk and they tend to still fall into a human dominance and split of nature. I've also done some work with Friends of the Rouge in the Detroit area. They have various signs around town touting the River as "Ours To Protect". Both steward and protect seem to place an over burden on humanity providing the moral impetus for action through intelligence. Instead we should recognize ourselves with your word administrative and administer the moral impulse, that can yes! arise from "brewers yeast", or any web of the ecosystem that dictates the just morality of the moment via "energy economics"...as Thick Nhat Hanh says in a Night Of Prayer "...when man shall learn the language of the inexpressible, and the babble of a Child shall teach the Law."
Puck,
"As to my position on morality"
I can see the disconnect in my suggesting that humanity is somehow a greater steward of the ecosystem than any other aspect of the ecosystem. Being that we are all one, humanity is of course, part of the ecosystem.
I also acknowledge your point that my lumping of all humanity together as a single administrative force, also asserts (wrongly) that each individual has no distinct "moral impetus" apart from the human collective they may choose to buy into.
The following sad fact, I think we might agree upon, is that those with the power, tend to influence the powerless in order to persuade them to become complicit in their agenda's and become adherent to the self-serving nature of the powerful.
Every individual that defaults on their responsibility to determine the truth and simply accepts the prevailing dogma instead. Thereby resigns their role within the administration of the ecosystem and humanity, commensurate with their degree of default, influence on humanity and the ecosystem, is the measure by which they become AWOL towards the ecosystem.
Question what you know for sure. The only things I feel that I know for sure are those things that I have observed firsthand. Secondary to those things are the things I hear from close personal friends that they have witnessed firsthand. Everything else is suspect and demands your scrutiny.
Best,
Grasshopper
uncle tom obama
"Historical amnesia is a dangerous phenomenon, not only because it undermines moral and intellectual integrity, but also because it lays the groundwork for crimes that still lie ahead."
How true, but it is interesting that Chomsky, with all his radical icon clasting, never comes around to what we should do about it. That is because his anarchistic program would not stand the light of day, so he exercises his own amnesia!
Put simply, anyone as sharp as this man who does not come out in support of international communism - the ONLY just and rational approach available - needs to be outed as the net enemy of progress.
If you want to be smarter than the esteemed professor, get on board with building the communist party that can lead organized labor to a successful overthrow of capitalism. Universal peace, sustainability, equality and affluence is possible, but NEVER under capitalism.
The Communist Party is alive and well disguised as Globalization, Democracy and the Green movement. Ask those who lived under Stalin and Mao how they liked Communism, which is just another name for Totalitarian Government as envisioned by Plato. Like Eugenics (a neo-malthusian science), the name has been discredited, so it lurks under other names and forms. Communism today is Monopoly Capitalism with central planning, another form of fascism, just 2 ends of the same rope. Our real government just had a meeting in Greece, and it's outcome is secret, no surprise there.
Perhaps we do not totally disagree, G-i-R, except I conclude that R-i-G! The green movement is only a desperate stopgap, and does not provide an integrated solution for the problems of society. Communism, on the other hand, does provide an integrated solution that most definitely includes ecological concerns. A worldwide planned economy, under the democratically elected representatives of labor, would be an overdue return to a 'seven generations' perspective.
'Globalization', which is velvet-gloved imperialism even at its best, does indeed translate to increased monopoly and oligarchy. Capitalism will always seek to surround and devour competition, either by innovation, or, most often, by something far more crude and antisocial. Writ large, this translates to an ENDLESS threat of war between competing blocks of globalizing imperialist nationalists.
The point is that there is not even a theoretical paradigm for peace amongst capitalist nations (much less any green dreams we might share), and that there is only a communist path to universal peace, sustainability, equality and affluence. I see your point about Stalin and Mao, but even if the initial attempts at communism were a total failure (which I do not believe), it is certain that we must figure out how to get it right or face WW3 in the inevitable scramble for resources that is coming.
Thank you, Yohocoma and jlocke, your efforts to shake some sense into those promoting this conspiracy insanity is very much appreciated.
I am a civil engineer, I don't care to try, for the hundredth time to refute their completely incorrect ideas regarding the properties of structural steel when heated, and the mechanics of collpasing tall buildings, and of high-speed airliner impacts.
Most of the misunderstndings seem to have to do with the mechanics of scale and simlitude - a collpasing building or large airliner crashing behave nothing like a toy or model on a tabletop.
The 911 kooks have made a laughingstock of the serious US left and done ireprrable damage to the movement.
Psychological and socioligical studies are indeed needed!
But the best thing that could be done at this point would be for the webmaster to delete the entire conspiracy and "gatekeeper" threads for the perfectly legitimate reason of being wildly off the topic of Chomsky's analysis of US foreign policy.
I'm guessing that most "911 is an inside job" folks majored in liberal arts. From a psychological / political point of view, Cheney et al are capable of such a thing. But the 911 folks' arguments do not show much understanding of science, and are distracting from taking action on things we do know for sure. I especially scoff at arguments that Amy Goodman was in on it.
Nonetheless, I would never advocate banning their views. It would be much worse than having to scroll past them.
Joe
Aren't you the little bully. It was Chomsky who brought up his version of 9-11, so maybe you could help him edit his manuscripts before he submits them. I noticed distinctly leading up to the presidential election how certain Obamabots on this site were frequently calling for censorship and control of what and how topics should be discussed. You are not acceptable as a gatekeeper for this thread or any other thread on this site. Control freak!!...by the way, will you be affiliated in any way with Obama's national civilian security force?
HR 1913 which passed will eliminate free speech on the internet. Many sites on the left have already begun to censor comments. This may be true on the right as well but I never go there anymore, since they don't take to the truth too well unless it is reported on Faux or by Roosh.
Anyone still believing the official version of 9/11 is a hopeless case or is paid to comment as the government outsources some of it's internet psyops. I don't even bother trying to convince anyone anymore. As one person said, even if it were true, I wouldn't want to believe it. They are in denial.
It's all over except the fat lady singing, and she will probanly be stoned to death for having a too large large carbon foot print.
Noam's "version of 9-11" (more porperly everywhere else in the world, 11-9) is similar to Noam's version of the color of the earth's sky, or Noam's version of who's buried in Grants Tomb.
.
There is a large dose of bitter truth in what Prof. Chomsky writes and says. However, he demonizes all opposing thoughts and actions, in simplistic and grandfatherly sentences.
I cannot accept all of these charming liberal-repackaged versions of global history with out filtering and examining them. Unfortunately, human history of the 1600's, 1700's, 1800's, 1900's; or the woeful and unsettled current era, is not simple or pleasant....
Prof. Chomsky is a "master-baiter". He casts out these small alluring snippets of wisdom. He hooks most of his audience and reels a great many in. However, close examinations of the "complex-multi dimensions" of his issues yield different conclusions than the good old grandfatherly Prof. Chomsky has touted.
I wouldn't buy a used car from Noam Chomsky !!!!!!!!!
,
Hmmmm.
It would be nice if you got specific with your snippy sneers.
Cars are soooooo over.
Cars are soooooo over.
So true!
"Nobody had ever spoken to them like this before. It was all very clear; but at the same time they were stunned. Torture, in the hands of the police officers, had always been a confused affair of kicks, punches, angry swearing, insults that led to more violence, flying fists and a brawl in which none of them knew for certain where it might end.
They flung themseves into it blindly, passionately and even when the desired result was achieved, it left everyone exhausted, covered in blood. Sometimes, in the brutality of the attack, the prisoner died on them, so thwarting the whole object as he took with him the knowledge that they wanted.
They had always gone about it in this chaotic, disorganized manner until now; but here is the AID advisor to help them improve their techniques and their mental preparation...a way not to waste their efforts...no hatred, no display of emotion. No fear, no arrogance. Method and more method...
El Infiero by Carlos Martinez Moreno (1981)
Keep bashing Noam, just remember, no other country in the world would let you say what you say but this one!
Hating American, First, Last and ALWAYS!
BS..we are something like # 30 in freedom of the press....probably worse by now.
clear thinker
"...no other country in the world would let you say what you say but this one!"
A perfect example of that special American brainwashing about the exceptionalism of America.
Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Finland, Australia, etc. etc. etc. countless countries allow their citizens to criticize their countries and allow them to say whatever they want. Where the hell does this idea come from that you can only freely say what you want in America? It comes from the brainwashing from the first day of school.
Thinker,
Lots of countries have much greater effective freedom of speech, in the form of access to intelligent analysis in their media, than the US does.
But I do agree with you in another way - no other country is so full of misinformed consporacy kooks who would bash the person who is arguably the most respected political thinker on the planet.
There are a lot of countries that allow free speech. Australia, New Zealand, The Nordic countries, Britain, and the list goes on and on. You have apparently bought into the propaganda machine of this country.
I see the retrograde right has a new paid shill.
Well, as an historian Noam does have a few problems. For instance, his tendency to attribute the fall of Allende in Chile to Kissinger and the CIA, whereas the whole matter was more directly the result of conflicts and contradictions going on in Chile itself for decades, the impact of the CIA being minimal at best though certainly on the wrong side. His analysis of the situation in Indonesia and East Timor followed the same pattern.
The difference here is between cramming hisory into an argument or presenting history ( limited by chance and unpredictability) and the argument that arises out of it. Big differance, really. I can think of many different subjects in which this important distinction is completely ignored in the public discource. In this respect Noam is often hardly any better than most- which is a darn shame since his goals seem superior.
Just imagine if the world view of the 'Founding Fathers" had been such that the progressive arguments presented by George Washington an Albert Gallitan in regards to native americans has seemed just a bit more persuasive.
Undoubtedly, it's better to confront this issue in an intelligently responsible way than to talk about bashing this and bashing that... which just reproduces the same fault for which you blame Chomsky!
John, you need to read some history.
Kissinger and Nixon paid out hundreds of millions of your tax dollars (or tax dollars of someone like myself who is old enough to remember trhe whole thing) to 1)try to pay for a coup BEFORE Allende came to power in 1970, and then 2) to disrupt the supply lines of basic goods through the blockade and through paying the oligarchs who owned the distribution of foodstuffs and 3) finally hire Pinochet to do the dirty deed.
It was all run by the CIA out of the US Embassy in Santiago.
BTW, revisionist history buff, there is a famous reply to the question of why there has never been a military coup in the US: Because the US is the only country that does NOT have a US Embassy.
Get yourself to a public library!
I love it:
"why there has never been a military coup in the US: Because the US is the only country that does NOT have a US Embassy"
But you are wrong because there have been at least two coups in my lifetime:
- The first was on Nov 22, 1963 (by the CIA).
- There was an attempted coup using John Hinkley, whose father is an oil man and whose family was associated with the Bushes.
- And then there was the chadless coup in 2000.
Thanks Noam. I wish I had had you as a history teacher in high school. You and Gore Vidal.
Hey i make a ad to help poor people from climate change!... see the video and sent it to all the people you know, together we can press the world leaders. See the video and send it please!!! this is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRYCjStKr8
What about the Muslim men who have been victims of selective prosecution and rot in U.S.prisons with far fewer privileges than other prisoners. Although they were convicted of white collar crimes that others received light sentences for they are in for over 20 years. These are men housed in special units for terrorist but they were never charged or convicted of terrorism. Did I miss Noam's mention of this terrible injustice?
I never read or hear any mention of the many U.S. citizens who have been victims of selective prosecutions due to a group mentality of fear of Muslims since 9-11.They rot in U.S. prisons with little or no hope of justice from the criminal justice system although they are innocent of terrorist charges they are treated as terrorists, in special prison units where their privileges such as phone calls, family visits,recreation time,monitored phone calls and housed far from family members making their life more miserable than violent killers although they were not convicted of any connection to violence or terrorism.
Unexceptional Americans? Who would have thought such a thing!
The myth began long ago when the blood started running. It's never stopped.
The graves of the world are filled with those who America has killed. Whether by war or by greed it matters not.
It is not finished yet!
www.dangerouscreation.com
I've always had the greatest respect for Noam Chomsky. I'm sure many readers are not aware of his international stature as a scholar. In the 1950's, Chomsky's work revolutionized the field of linguistics and played a huge role in the early development of cognitive psychology. He is probably the most influential figure in linguistics and psychology for the last half of the 20th century. If they gave Nobel Prizes in these fields, Chomsky would have won one many years ago.
What is truly remarkable is to see a man of such scientific accomplishment focus so much of his energy on humanitarian and political issues. I'm not a historian, but I strongly suspect that his work in these areas is of the highest caliber. Noam Chomsky is a gem, as demonstrated once again in this article.
Of course Chomsky's work in linguistics has been challenged of late, particularly by Daniel L. Everett ( author of "Don't Sleep, There are Snakes; Life and Language in the Amazon Jungle"), though there are some difficulties with Everett's analysis as well. This is as it should be, even Einstein's theory of Relativity is in the process of being revised based on new observations. That's science which hardly advances a wit when forced into an artificial, politically correct consensus, and to which Nobel prizes in and of themselves are rarely much of a contribution.
As I pointed out above, Chomsky's work as an historian has some methodolgical problems, but I can't decide whether this helps or detracts from his ability to influence the public discourse.Perhaps his "great authority" induces a sort of lassitude and laziness in "followers" who seem contend to go with what he says instead of investigating themselves and coming up with their own self-sustaining ideas.
Chomsky. Notice how he's always snarling and yapping at this great big abstraction known as the United States? Notice how when people were beginning to talk seriously about arresting Kissinger for war crimes that Chomsky leapt in and agreed with Kissinger that he was, "merely carrying out the foreign policy of the United States government"?
Noam Chomsky is forever content to shit upon the USA with his handy file of atrocities but when it comes to holding the powerful individuals accountable for these crimes he is nowhere to be found. So yeah, sure Professor Chomsky, we've heard it all before. You can drop dead now and thanks a lot for contributing not one damned thing towards actually changing this behavior of our craven "leaders" that you have so monomaniacally and uselessly droned on about for decades.
Your legacy will be one of promoting learned helplessness among the domestic victims of imperial America.
At least Chomsky's carping has a "high tone", oh fake-french
Then do enlighten us, oh fake_one, as to the learned wisdom of your experience.
"Torture is hideous enough; the invasion of Iraq was a far worse crime. Quite commonly, selective atrocities have this function."
ALL THE 9/11 TRUTH talk here is a great example of Chomsky's "selective atrocities". By far the greater crime, regardless of how the Towers fell, along with the clearer criminal evidence, belongs to the invasion of Iraq. Are the murders of close to 3,0000 with concealed evidence somehow more exceptional then the murder of 100,000's and the maiming and displacement of millions with much clearer evidence of criminality?
And the greatest atrocity here is that Chomsky somehow won't admit to the nose on his face?
And note as well that excessive deaths and excessive deaths due to violence were higher in Iraq than during the period of so-called "genocide" in Darfur. As President Bashir recently noted, at least in Darfur the deaths, resulting from civil war and inter-tribal violence- were "homegrown", not the result of foreign armies traveling thousands of miles from their "homeland".
Probably if we wern't fully occuppied slaughtering thousands of people in the name of "human rights" in Iraq and Afghanistan, we'd be doing more in Sudan.
This is, of course, the conundrum presented by the alternative or opposition to the main thrust of America's foreign adventures: they agree in basic principle, the basic diffrrence being a claim to "genuineness" or, rather, the "disingenuineness" of the mainstream in which concern for "human rights" is seen as a mere excuse to grab oil or whatnot. In neither case is their much respect for the principle of national sovereignty or much mention of the failings of a world government (UN) controlled by a few powerful and privileged nations.
No recognition, for example, that actually letting Pakistan come to a political compromise with "taliban" in Swat might solve the problem of "human rights" better in the long run than allowing 1.5 million refugees to further strain the backward, near-feudal and corrupt government and economies of our two so-called allies.
All of which must inevitably suggest that, at the present monment, the "change" we were led to expect in the last election is no change at all. At best, just "smarter" same old same old.
P U C K _ T W A I N,
Of course the deaths and egregious suffering of millions is more significant ( to me ) than thousands ( even if Americans ), but I would go to the issue of causality, linking between the events. I would also equivocate that the mental torture of 100s of millions of Americans, is an unsettled question of delayed impact ( risk of possible right wing religious zealots - Palinesque ).
What is exceptional to me is that torture became part of the GW of T, and that wouldn't have happened w/o 9/11, anthrax, and billions of PSYOP$ messages and carefully crafted propaganda.
Would the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, and GW of T ever have been possible w/o first the pretext of 9/11 occurring ?
Perhaps yes, but more likely similar to Gulf War I than the terrible mess we've seen, since 1991.
A traitorous subterfuge of American laws, murdering many of our own, including even our own bankers ( gasp ), must rank as relatively important ( so as not to ignore ). At least with Iraq and Afghanistan invasions, we had the appearances of Congressional approval and UN participation with EU forces.
The forces being played across our World are infinitely troubling, but I have never swayed from believing that the "ends" never justifies the "means". So if Iraq is one of the ends, then 9/11 is one of the means -- and that's pretty simple math to me.
As far as Chomsky and his nose is concerned, that's his life -- and this is mine.
Namaste
My main interest is in helping to change individual and national behavior(s). In order to carry on an argument to change our collective sadomasochism I feel it's much more effective to use evidence that hasn't been sent to China, melted down and sold back to us as trinkets of Lady Liberty. To me it's difficult enough to break through the imagery that has the Exceptional Americans lifting children from rubble, building schools and delivering fresh water in addition to arguing what happened to building 7 - this is where Chomsky's "selective atrocities" comes into play.
During the Troops Out Now Coalition gathering in DC each coalition group had it's personal selective atrocity - shouting for health care, environment, a sane foreign policy, jobs, etc. - each had a shout out selective to their group. The second shout out, and most enthusiastic, for each and every group was for impeachment; yet, due to fixations with personal selective atrocities, we were unable to coalesce around the argument of impeachment - a constitutional action that would have directly confronted, on the national level, the sadomasochistic behavior at the root of the atrocities arising in all the selective fields. This is like being stuck in years of psychoanalysis and going over the primal scene again and again without taking advantage of our very human, if not distinctly human, abilities to confront and mature in the here and now our energy systems that both harbor our selective atrocities as well as carry out our sadomasochistic dance of the day.
What is that prayer our alcoholic brothers and sisters help us to remember with their chants: "God, grant me the wisdom to know what I can and cannot change...and the courage to change that which I can"? I believe for national level behavioral change a more effective strategy is to present the larger picture of our collective brutal behavior (and what we could accomplish with it's change!) then to argue, as righteous as it may be, the intricacies of building 7.
"The 9/11 attack was doubtless unique in many respects. One is where the guns were pointing: typically it is in the opposite direction."
This statement caught my eye as I re-read the article: doesn't this leave the door open for concluding 9/11 was an "inside" job? Plus, I'm starting to use "...considering more and more people, once they've looked at any details of what happened that day, believe it could have been a false flag incidence."
Thanks for help with this modification.
Hi P U C K . . T W A I N
Yes, I certainly do agree that there are multitudinous threads of real evidence that point toward :
_______ "it could have been a false flag incidence"
¿ Did you have a chance to read my comment ( buried ) below at :
_______ nan◎thermite May 23rd, 2009 2:44 pm
In another thoughtful article, is a great rebuttal of 'Conspiracy Theorist Truthers' :
The Joy and Comfort of Conspiracy Denial, please follow this link ( once you find the courage to let go of the chandler :
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/184839-The-Joy-and-Comfort〓snip〓
Paste below, at the end of truncated URL above:
-of-Conspiracy-Denial
"Recently I read another stinging rebuke of the 9-11 conspiracy theorists for their frightful mishandling of evidence, their will to believe only what gives them psychological comfort, and their general state of delusion. It was not the first I had read, nor will it be the last. The writer held unwaveringly to the party line: all those who seek to discredit the official, announced version of the events of 9-11 are "conspiracy theorists"- and should not be listened to. That this position constitutes an attempt at prior censorship does not seem to bother the deniers, nor the fact that the central tenets of conspiracy denial are an ad hominem attack. We are told that conspiracy theorists are crazy, or at least cowardly clingers to delusions that they find comforting.
It occurred to me that I haven't seen anyone examine the mental comforts of conspiracy denial, using the handy tools of amateur psychology. It's my guess that there's considerable comfort to be had, especially for men, from an acceptance of the official explanation for 9-11. This is not to say that many women aren't happy with the Arab hijacker theory, but for men, the provision of a clear enemy to fight is always especially gratifying.
To accept the official announcements of the story of 9-11 is instantly satisfying in several ways. Commercial airliners, hijacked by suicide terrorists, flew into buildings at the behest of a really smart master-terrorist named Osama Bin Laden. This is an immediately credible scenario""many of us had heard the name Bin Laden, and "knew" he was a terrorist who lived on the other side of the world. Indeed, the WTC had been attacked once before. And terrorism itself certainly exists--both sides of the 9-11 controversy can agree on that. So, to accept the official announcements that followed the attacks enabled you quickly to locate all the blame for the attacks in a tiny evil army of foreigners, all out of immediate reach, but accessible to the U.S. Army, you bet. The hijackers themselves were all dead, and their leader was extremely hard to find, but American forces could find and punish them. No need, really, to conduct any investigations or solve any mysteries--an evil super-hero with a small army of mentally enslaved unfortunates was able to penetrate the defenses of the finest air force in the world to murder 3000 Americans. A fluke, but in life and in sports, stuff like that happens.
The fact that this reads like a comic book plot doesn't seem to be a source of embarrassment for the anti-truther movement. In fact, an evil mastermind who, through mindless suicidal drones, wreaks havoc on good and decent people is the major plot driver of The Lord of the Rings, and many other fantasy and science fiction epics. Mythically speaking, it's golden.
And under the broad strokes of the main story, there's also a layer of historically accurate information that supports the main plot line. Joe and Jane Six-Pack would accept the unadorned story eagerly, but there's something to satisfy the more thoughtful as well. The back story is that American foreign policy for the last 30 years could easily result in some very unhappy Arabs. CIA meddling in the politics of Iran and Iraq, and above all, our support for Israel, have been highly unpopular on the Arab street. Well-read people could find the anti-American sentiments of the terrorists quite credible, if regrettable.
So the psychological comforts of the official story are several and real: you get a clearly defined enemy, a simple solution to a complex foreign policy problem, you get to feel morally superior to your enemy because you're more civilized and don't kill civilians, and finally, if you know something of the history of American policy in the Near East, you get to feel superior to those who don't.
It's entirely understandable that any American should believe the official 9-11 story. And, of course, to consider seriously for an instant that there could be something seriously wrong with that story, to imagine that as possible, really does change everything, just like 9-11 itself. If there's a chance that Americans colluded in those horrors, then the entire mental structure of our sanity, which we've lived in all our lives, has a serious crack, a San Andreas Fault, right down the middle. If we think it possible that "We have met the enemy, and he is us," then everything previously unthinkable is thinkable.
In fairness to their enemies among the truthers, the conspiracy deniers should admit that there is much psychological comfort in their own position, and that conspiracy theorists do not have a monopoly on convenient but deluded assumptions. 9-11 is, after all, a heap of facts, and it is open to human inquiry. Whether the heap was created by our enemies' hatred or something worse has yet to be decided."
Namaste
Jousting with, while not being linked to, the "enemy image" and the truth that "psychological comforts of the official story are several and real" are why I like my new add on phrase of "...people considering the details...consider a false flag...": in this way I can maintain the conversation without being directly linked to the enemy image and becoming the enemy in the moment; the others considering the details become the enemy if the person I'm speaking with senses such a level of insecurity as to need the "evil mastermind" close at hand for their sense of Self.
To me this also avoids the other pit falls like the defensive reflex that will most assuredly result if a fear based person is confronted with "conspiracy deniers should admit that there is much psychological comfort in their own position". I would say the denier would be better off in human terms to admit the comfort they derive through denial, as opposed to "should", for in that moment they are standing with feet straddling the "fault line" and the earth is starting to rumble - to push someone in the abyss at this moment, without a new thought form to see them through, is not very kind, and as I've found, is counter productive. By presenting another possibility, rather then a "should", which always presents an absolutist brick wall, the denier can explore, on their very human level, a different thought form while keeping the "master mind" in their back pocket if things get to shaky.
Anyhow: recognizing the human mythological functioning and it's current use of the enemy image, and how the Deniers use denial for a comfort zone for ease of thinking and acting in their personal fear based world, is the main focus, intellectually and in functionally organic process, that I believe will help the human collective nurture a behavior with a basis in much greater happiness...or blow up another planet through aware or unaware brutality to life and life force...perhaps starting over somewhere in the universe...
...namaste...
There will be a protest in Spokane, Washington on Thursday, May 21, 2009 at 5 PM at the corner of Washington and Riverside in front of the American Legion Building where CIA psychologists Mitchell and Jessen have offices. Spokane is the home of psychologists Mitchell and Jessen who, using the U.S. military's SERE survival training program (one of which is located just outside Spokane at Fairchild Air Force Base), reverse engineered those survival techinques to more successfully torture and breakdown human beings in the service of the post-9/11 lie of the empire's global war on terror. Mitchell and Jessen along with several hundred employees and contractors associated with other companies make up a key part of ground zero in the U.S. policy of torture.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/06/21/cia_sere/
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/07/torture200707?currentPage=2
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/04/levin-torture-interrogation-senate-report.html
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/11/050711fa_fact4?currentPage=all
http://psychoanalystsopposewar.org/blog/2007/08/27/protest-at-spokane-cia-torture-firm-mitchell-jessen...
http://spokanepoliceabuses.wordpress.com/torture-sere-fairchild-spokane/
sancho,
max prefers to go by the proper title of "white male christian." or so he claims.
yohocoma and jlocke, have you heard of crossing the rubicon? it's only a suggestion, but flip thru the pages and get back to us.
This SOB is lying ... he begins "More importantly, torture has been routinely practiced from the early days of the conquest of the national territory," but he doesn't even attempt to substantiate it. He lists the conquests, wars, etc., but that's not the issue, the issue is torture.
Chomsky writes crap like this "Long after his own significant contributions to the process were past, John Quincy Adams deplored the fate of "that hapless race of native Americans, which we are exterminating with such merciless and perfidious cruelty... among the heinous sins of this nation, for which I believe God will one day bring [it] to judgement."
What in the hell does that have to do with torture? War is not torture. Imperialism is not torture. Torture is torture.
Chomsky's job is to divert us from the cause of the wars we're fighting now .... and that is the neo-con domination of the US government. This somehow has eluded Chomsky for the last 10 years.
Chomsky's other task is to destroy the image of the US that we have of ourselves, our mythology. I wouldn't mind that if he would spend some time destroying Israel's as well, but that is off limits for Chomsky. He is a 100% Zionist, that is, he supports the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state. The purpose of articles like this one is to destroy the left, by diversion and criticism. It should be rejected.
Actually you have your characters mixed up. You're thinking not of Norm, author of this article, but of the chimp named after him, Nim Chimsky. Nim sometimes does come across as a little diversionary at times, but he's just a chimp.
Are you kidding me? Have you even read Chomsky's stuff. I doubt it!! Because if you had you would realize how utterly ABSURD your comment is!
here is a link to his website --- www.chomsky.info
Seriously. Do yourself a favor and click on the articles link in his website and scroll through the list of articles and actually read them and then come back and tell us that "Chomsky's job is to divert us from the cause of the wars we're fighting now..."
Here, I'll do you a favor and find a few for you...
-- The Case Against US Adventurism in Iraq (march 13, 2003) http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20030313.htm
-- Selective Memory and a Dishonest Doctrine (Dec 21, 2003) http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20031222.htm
-- Understanding the Bush Doctrine (Oct 2, 2004) http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20041002.htm
-- It's Imperialism, Stupid (July 4, 2005) http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20050704.htm
----------------------
As for you saying... "I wouldn't mind that if he would spend some time destroying Israel's as well, but that is off limits for Chomsky. He is a 100% Zionist, that is, he supports the continued existence of Israel as a Jewish state."
Dude, once again... you have obviously NOT read any of Chomsky's work... instead you probably read some obscure website that called him a Zionist in disguise, like the one NebraskaNathan posted earlier in this comment section.
Again, I urge you to check out his writings and get back to us about Israel being "off limits for Chomsky."
Here is a few for you:
-- On the US-Israeli Invasion of Lebanon http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20060819.htm
-- Guillotining Gaza http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20070730.htm
Actually, I have long been a big fan of Chomsky's.
But, now that Israel is the focus of US foreign policy, Chomsky has failed the left big time. He is a Zionist, that is, he supports the existence of Israel as a Jewish state on Arab land.
He is now a gate keeper for the Zionists. He bashed Walt and Mearsheimer, for example. But that's just the tip of the iceberg.
So, I was happy to see him write such an outrageously bad article as the one above. Read this article and my criticism of it. Attack my analysis if you can. His bashing of the US, and his implicit acceptance of the control of US foreign policy by the Zionists, now makes him, in my view, part of the problem.
Narcissus says... "Actually, I have long been a big fan of Chomsky's."
Maybe so... but I still doubt you have actually read much of his works.
Can you at least admit that your comment about -- "Chomsky's job is to divert us from the cause of the wars we're fighting now" -- is totally absurd?
Can you do that? Can you admit how absurd that comment is? I provided 4 links - of which there are more - that show that Chomsky actually explains in plain detail why the US is at war in the mid-east. Nothing diversionary at all, as you suggest...
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Your Zionist slant about Chomsky falls into the same category as the 9/11 truthers - that being, you are annoyed that an intellectual like Chomsky won't fall in line with your possible conspiracy theory about Zionists... so you bash him and call him a gatekeeper and make him out to be part of the very thing you are fighting against. By him not agreeing with the "conspiracy theorist" doesn't mean that the Zionist world take-over is not a possibility (same with 9/11) It means that he is taking a different route to confront the highly concentrated power structures that actually exist in plain daylight!! And, maybe, these highly concentrated power structures will turn out to be Zionists, Bilderbergers, CFR's, Nazi's or whatever, and that they were also behind 9/11... however, nobody will know for sure until we confront the KNOWN power structures which are destroying, exploiting, robbing and dominating the world RIGHT NOW and in BROAD DAYLIGHT!!!!!!!
So, What we do know for sure is that the highly concentrated power structures that are operating in broad daylight CAN be confronted TODAY because they are VERY REAL. And, maybe after they are confronted the Zionist plot will be revealed... or maybe we will just find out that it turns out that it was all just about power, money and control.
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Narcissus says... "He is now a gate keeper for the Zionists. He bashed Walt and Mearsheimer, for example. But that's just the tip of the iceberg."
It was interesting how many people jumped on the bandwagon of Chomsky being a Zionist shill as soon as he didn't "praise" John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt for their article, The Israeli Lobby. In fact, Chomsky gave credit to Walt and Mearsheimer for taking a stand against the Lobby. You can read about it and Chomsky's critique of The Israeli Lobby article
by reading about it here ===> http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20060328.htm
I highly suggest you read it (if you haven't yet)
You say, the Walt and Mearsheimer example is "just the tip of the iceberg." Please expand, or is this the only part of the iceberg you are aware of?
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Narcissus says... "Attack my analysis if you can."
I am and already did. And, you really haven't provided much of an analysis besides generalizations and completely absurd statements like "Chomsky's job is to divert us from the cause of the wars we're fighting now"
No, you didn't attack the analysis I was referring to which is this .... in the paper Chomsky claims that the US has always practiced torture, and then in arguing his case he conflates torture, invasion, annihilation, etc., etc., just to bash the US. Imperial wars aren't torture. He does not demonstrate that the US has always practiced torture.
I've read lots of Chomsky ... and I don't disagree with many of your points .... altogether ..... but there is an iceberg ..... it is this .... the debate in the US and everywhere else is between the rabid Zionists like AIPAC who implicitly want to drive out the Palestinians, and the humanitarian Zionists like Chomsky, Zinn, Carter, who want to establish a Jews only state along with a Palestinian state. That is the iceberg, the total silence of the 'left' on the only just alternative, the one state solution. Chomsky is totally silent on this issue. There is more, there is frontal attack on US culture in the courts and in the schools, the example I have in mind is that the Holocaust is now being taught in KINDERGARTEN in many states in the US, by mandate. Chomsky has a moral duty to speak out on this fundamental issue which is destroying the US, and he is TOTALLY silent. To acquaint yourself with a few of the facts, see history1a.tripod.com/hh
I agree the 'conspiracy' or whatever has to be discovered and confronted. Guess what, the formerly invisible hand just reached down and grabbed $700,000,000,000.00, didn't you notice. They are practically in the open now, on TV everyday, in the papers. What is the best known front for the Bilderberg group. Ans: Goldman Sachs. The simplest place to start is with good analysis. Chomsky is not providing it.
Ahhh... now I understand your angle. Good luck confronting that one.
narcissus says... "I agree the 'conspiracy' or whatever has to be discovered and confronted. Guess what, the formerly invisible hand just reached down and grabbed $700,000,000,000.00, didn't you notice."
Uh, yeah, I noticed. You call them Zionists... I call them bankers.
In a previous comment I already mentioned how Chomsky writes extensively about highly concentrated power, but he never pinpoints bankers, specifically, in his writings. I personally think that bankers are probably the most concentrated forms of power on this planet. So, I wonder why won't he write about them... Maybe his silence is to stay alive, or maybe he is a part of it. At this time I think it is the former because that's the road I would take if I were in his shoes.
But wait a minute, am I right, is this paper by Chomsky a piece of crap or not? Did he demonstrate that the US has consistently tortured or not? I was shocked to see Chomsky write such garbage. Just US bashing. Same as Zinn.
You call them Zionists... I call them bankers.
Uh, same thing. Rubin, Summers, Pauson, Geithner, Greenspan, Bernanke, ..... didn't you notice?
Narcissus says.. "But wait a minute, am I right, is this paper by Chomsky a piece of crap or not? Did he demonstrate that the US has consistently tortured or not? I was shocked to see Chomsky write such garbage. Just US bashing. Same as Zinn."
The problem with somebody like you is that you will never be happy with Chomsky, Zinn, or Amy Goodman-like articles, unless they appeal and write about your conspiracy that the Holocaust never happened and that Zionist bankers are taking over the world. Well, guess what? They will never write about such things, for whatever their reasons may be, so I suggest you just keep reading Alex Jones stuff.
Narcissus says... "You call them Zionists... I call them bankers.
Uh, same thing. Rubin, Summers, Pauson, Geithner, Greenspan, Bernanke, ..... didn't you notice?"
Ya, I got that... Look, dude, it doesn't take a genius to understand that there are groups of people who are exploiting, dominating, and enslaving the world with their banking scheme. As I pointed out in earlier posts, for whatever reason, Chomsky will not go down this road to call out, and pinpoint specifically, these groups who have an enormous amount of highly concentrated power. I applaud him for at least pointing out the horrible things that US gov't does (which you call, US bashing). I am not going to be a prick and call him a SOB and assume that he is part of the Zionist conspiracy because he won't write to my liking about a certain grand conspiracy... you can go right ahead and say such things. I have gathered enough insight from reading his writings on highly concentrated power to connect the dots on my own to understand where this power lies (bankers)... and I don't need Chomsky to hold my hand and help me to connect the dots.
Take care... I enjoyed the dialogue.
I generally don't bother reading articles that obsess way too much about torture but I thought I'd give a little food for thought here. Year after year, there are so many articles writing this and that about torture and yet it all goes on.
Perhaps like this article, most of them are way too hysterical and biased on the issue of who to sympathize when it comes to torture. On rightwing sites, if it's a Christian who's tortured, then everyone screams "CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION !" On lefting sites, if it's an atheist or a Muslim, then I here similar screams but obviously for the Muslims and atheists. In another article on this site where it talked about the torture of Tamilians, very few people made a peep about it simply because they were neither. Hindus and Buddhists for example get no sympathy from either the Far Right or the Far Left. In fact, both extremes say "well they're demons and fascists and they deserve it".
Another reason all these articles on torture often come and go is here we all are trapped in a system where we have enough headaches to worry about and are under our own torture hell. So of course most Americans won't give a shit on people getting tortured abroad. We're all just divided and exploited and even exploiting each other's weaknesses to understand the problem. Even on this thread, I see so much hatred and exploitation of each other going on just because of a few minor differences. At a time when the economy here at home is hitting rock bottom, most Americans won't take foreign policy seriously unless they find out that it really is hitting their pocket books or are able to feel its effects in a more concrete way or shall I say a less abstract way.
Shawn Berry: "Way too hysterical and biased" ??????
Of course they are - and so they should be. Human beings are being tortured - some even die - some are damaged forever. We should all scream bloody murder until they stop doing it - to anyone and everyone.
Most decent people - Left or Right - find torturing anyone, including Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians - totally unacceptable and we should continue to be hysterical and biased until this type of behaviour stops.
I have never heard any progressive person say, "well, they're demons and fascists and they deserve it". Your post reveals your clumsy attempt at trying to sound enlightened and knowledgeable.
Shawn, we are obligated to help those under the boot of our very own government, so Muslims/Atheists take priority. Your painting the far right and far left as being somehow in moral parity seems crazy to me. But it depends on our definitions of left/right. Seems the most USEFUL is to define left as moral and right as amoral. This definition of left/right simplifies things. Important for the people's active participation in their self-governance.
"so Muslims/Atheists take priority."
No wonder good progressives and liberals get a bad rap. So religious discrimination is not ok when it comes to doing it for Christians and when it comes to doing it for Muslims and atheists who offer no help but more harm and terrorism to society, it's ok? Pathetic !
When two groups are at parity, they deserve equal treatment. When one group breaks parity and attacks the other, the attacker loses the right to equal treatment. In this case it's ok to try to help the group under attack, with the goal to end the aggression and extract a retribution, which re-establishes parity and equal treatment. Does this make sense?
I find it rather odd that when people such as Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader take billions of dollars in bribes or stock money from the Military Industrial Complex, they are praised by the purists on this site. On the other hand, when ordinary Joes and Janes are caught working with companies associated with MIC or are even soldiers themselves, they are often demonized by the cultists on this and other "progressive" and/or "liberal" sites and blogs. I thought that progressives and liberals supposedly stood for the little guy and not the elites but as the mistreatment of maxpayne and Thomas More, both of whom are liberal and/or progressive minded, shows the opposite is happening.
And another thing I noticed is that especially on this site, I notice a lot of disturbing posts that are racist, too much on swearing, and just plain out of touch. It appears that no matter how loud and how irritating some people on this site sound, as long as they purists, it's ok. However, when someone tries to correct such loudmouth whining from purist minds, they're called "trolls". There appears to be a serious identity crisis here and as a pragmatic progressive and liberal, I think we all need to be realistic and rational instead of acting so purist and expecting too much.
If the author would please return all the money he took from MIC, then maybe I could take him seriously.
There are many contradictions in our lives, they're everywhere, we all live with them, consciously or unconsciously. Chomsky has admitted that as a professor at MIT, part of his salary comes from the funding by the MIC (or more accurately the MICC, Military Industrial Congressional Complex). He fully admits it, yet is also aware that his position gives him the opportunity to research and lecture and write. And if you have read any of his writings or listened to him speak, he consistently attacks the MICC from multiple angles, and backs up his analysis and criticism with extensive references.
Nathan, it's all about the message. When you're focused on the message, oooop, you have no idea what kind of boogers are in the messenger's nose! Thanks for providing us another opportunity to illustrate the rock solid principles/policies of the far left "people's movement".
You have no clue as to what you're talking about do you? The only thing disturbing are creeps such as yourself harassing sweethearts such as Sioux Rose and JenniferBedingfield who bring out the best discussions on this board.
P.S.: And this is for you "maxpayne".
There are bald-faced liars such as "maxpayne" who have the nerve to lie about most jobs going military when in fact throughout Virginia, most of the job growth is going towards non-military non-defense related sectors that are more local, pay well, offer better benefits, and actually treat their employees with respect and those businesses are growing and there's plenty of evidence to prove "maxpayne" dead wrong. Even Arlington, VA is starting to shift its job growth to non-DOD type. Virginia is becoming less of a military state thanks to a growing cultural diversity from the population growth and I welcome it. America doesn't have to be tied to the military forever. Even I knew when to quit working for DOD a long time ago when my husband and I found ourselves getting worked to death with less pay and benefits clippings. Sure, finding a new job isn't always easy but it's not impossible either. Maybe a little more travel or a little less pay but just like votes, it doesn't have to be military mainly.
"I find it rather odd that when people such as Noam Chomsky and Ralph Nader take billions of dollars in bribes or stock money from the Military Industrial Complex, they are praised by the purists on this site."
Please provide the facts behind this comment - show me the proof that Chomsky gets paid by the MIC! Provide a link, or something... otherwise I'm gonna assume that it's you who is the troll - or at least a total fool. And, if you can provide me with valid proof of Chomsky being a MIC operative then I will make sure to thank you for your brilliant post... until then.
http://ziomania.com/chomsky/Do%20as%20I%20say%20not%20as%20I%20do.htm
Of course, you're welcome to take it as a "lie" as you wish but feel free to foam at the mouth as you wish.
Thanks for the link... NOT a very credible source... but at least now I understand why you are so mislead about Chomsky.
And, no, I am not foaming at the mouth... I'm laughing.
If he returns his, will you return yours? And yes, you've profitted greatly by it.
I work on a farm of my own sir. I don't take billions from MIC so I have nothing to return. That's a rather lame attempt defending NC.
So, you don't benefit from highways, autos, trucks, the financial system, farm subsidies, and a whole raft of other parts of the whole system. We are even communicating using a media created by the War Machine!
Thank you so very much, Noam Chomsky, for these necessary reminders!
All this after he took billions in bribes from MIC? Some "progressive" huh?
Bring America Back !!!!........Chomsky says here that 9/11 was unique partly because of the scale of the terror perpetrated by a "non-state actor " !!!
****No wonder Chomsky cannot see either forrest or trees. !
Let us invite him to examine exactly who the occupants were on 9/11 of Bldg #7. World Trade Center--Saloman Bros Bldg.
**I think He will find, if he takes off his blinders, all the usual suspects==state players all; with much means, motive and opportunity !
***Chomsky leads us to think he still believes a cave-dwelling boogieman, and 19 airline pilot school flunkies, pulled off the absolute technical genius which was 9/11.
I think he knows better in his heart, if he has one, and it is not worth reading his several thousand words trying to relegate 9/11 as compared to the invasion of Senegal.
Chomsky is a shill of Mainstream Media who would not know the truth if a branch of it fell on his Astin Martin !
Wise up, Noel.
Bring America Back!!!
I wish it would be possible.
But we will never be whole again.
America has been HIJACKED. Obama can’t alter this crime. He is a wheel, a gofer in the machine like so many.
Take a view with open mind behind the curtain:
>>> www.scribd.com/people/documents/2169400-ep-heidner <<<
Read “Collateral Damage” part I and II.
It will change the way you look at history, politics, finance, war and terrorism.
The details are well researched and referenced. The consequences are BEYOND BELIEF.
Prof. Chomsky, You say something in this essay that bears more emphasis than you give it: "Bush, of course, went beyond his predecessors in authorizing prima facie violations of international law."
There is a huge difference between committing atrocities and asking the rest of us to agree it is a good thing. The majority of white Americans, even in the North, were willing to tolerate slavery until the slavemasters insisted through the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 that all US citizens had to help them catch their runaway slaves or face legal penalties. That, more than any other factor, galvanized the forces of abolition, helped elect Lincoln, and led to the Civil War and the legal abolition of slavery.
Bush-Cheney asked all of us to sign on to torture, which previous administrations did not do. They did whatever they did secretly, which allowed us to be as comfortable as Northern whites before 1850. Bush-Cheney changed everything and, based on past US history, that will ultimately make us a better society.
"Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 that all US citizens had to help them catch their runaway slaves or face legal penalties."
Is that like the Healthcare Profits Act of 2009 when all US citizens will have to help big insurance make a profit or face legal penalties?
Chomsky is so right! We kill ,we torture, we conquer--until we don't.
"The British colonists were thus pictured as benevolent humanists, responding to the pleas of the miserable natives to be rescued from their bitter pagan fate."
Slough the elite monkeys off your backs, people! Embrace your "bitter pagan fate" of biosphere solidarity, NOW!
Good Damn the Queen!
"Torture is hideous enough; the invasion of Iraq was a far worse crime. Quite commonly, selective atrocities have this function."
I just brainwashed your children with my fantastic K-12 curriculum to make them into my war slaves but I want you to file a police report that I stole your sunglasses. Understood?
What puts the lie to America's claims of exceptionalism isn't just that we've provenly committed the same kinds of atrocities that other nations have.
Our deepest dishonesty and most insufferable hypocrisy lies is our implicit claim that no matter our all-too-human failings on some levels, '...as a people --we Americans more than any other people in the world -- morally disapprove of such conduct!'
And that: 'More than any other people in the world, WE have a legal system to root out such conduct, make it accountable, and punish it with an eye toward preventing it in the future....'
What total BS.
Obviously, if any of these secondary claims we make about ourselves were true, we wouldn't be pretending to debate whether waterboarding, etc., constitutes torture; or whether Bush Administration officials should now be legally made to answer for their self-admitted actions.
We Americans are exceptional in at least this respect:
We are masters of hypocritical sanctimony -- and of the mass-denial dynamics that such hypocrisy needs in order to keep it safely hidden from our awareness.
"We are masters of hypocritical sanctimony -- and of the mass-denial dynamics that such hypocrisy needs in order to keep it safely hidden from our awareness."
How true. But don't you see? This is contrived psyops cognitive dissonance by the elite through the media to control public opinion. It's all about destroying people and making a profit at the same time. See the article by Roberto Rodriguez in today's counterpunch.