You Are Being Lied to About Pirates
Who imagined that in 2009, the world's governments would be declaring a new War on Pirates? As you read this, the British Royal Navy - backed by the ships of more than two dozen nations, from the US to China - is sailing into Somalian waters to take on men we still picture as parrot-on-the-shoulder pantomime villains. They will soon be fighting Somalian ships and even chasing the pirates onto land, into one of the most broken countries on earth. But behind the arrr-me-hearties oddness of this tale, there is an untold scandal. The people our governments are labeling as "one of the great menace of our times" have an extraordinary story to tell -- and some justice on their side.
Pirates have never been quite who we think they are. In the "golden age of piracy" - from 1650 to 1730 - the idea of the pirate as the senseless, savage thief that lingers today was created by the British government in a great propaganda-heave. Many ordinary people believed it was false: pirates were often rescued from the gallows by supportive crowds. Why? What did they see that we can't? In his book Villains of All nations, the historian Marcus Rediker pores through the evidence to find out. If you became a merchant or navy sailor then - plucked from the docks of London's East End, young and hungry - you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off for a second, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked consistently, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages.
Pirates were the first people to rebel against this world. They mutinied against their tyrannical captains - and created a different way of working on the seas. Once they had a ship, the pirates elected their captains, and made all their decisions collectively. They shared their bounty out in what Rediker calls "one of the most egalitarian plans for the disposition of resources to be found anywhere in the eighteenth century." They even took in escaped African slaves and lived with them as equals. The pirates showed "quite clearly - and subversively - that ships did not have to be run in the brutal and oppressive ways of the merchant service and the Royal navy." This is why they were popular, despite being unproductive thieves.
The words of one pirate from that lost age - a young British man called William Scott - should echo into this new age of piracy. Just before he was hanged in Charleston, South Carolina, he said: "What I did was to keep me from perishing. I was forced to go a-pirating to live." In 1991, the government of Somalia - in the Horn of Africa - collapsed. Its nine million people have been teetering on starvation ever since - and many of the ugliest forces in the Western world have seen this as a great opportunity to steal the country's food supply and dump our nuclear waste in their seas.
Yes: nuclear waste. As soon as the government was gone, mysterious European ships started appearing off the coast of Somalia, dumping vast barrels into the ocean. The coastal population began to sicken. At first they suffered strange rashes, nausea and malformed babies. Then, after the 2005 tsunami, hundreds of the dumped and leaking barrels washed up on shore. People began to suffer from radiation sickness, and more than 300 died. Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, the UN envoy to Somalia, tells me: "Somebody is dumping nuclear material here. There is also lead, and heavy metals such as cadmium and mercury - you name it." Much of it can be traced back to European hospitals and factories, who seem to be passing it on to the Italian mafia to "dispose" of cheaply. When I asked Ould-Abdallah what European governments were doing about it, he said with a sigh: "Nothing. There has been no clean-up, no compensation, and no prevention."
At the same time, other European ships have been looting Somalia's seas of their greatest resource: seafood. We have destroyed our own fish-stocks by over-exploitation - and now we have moved on to theirs. More than $300m worth of tuna, shrimp, lobster and other sea-life is being stolen every year by vast trawlers illegally sailing into Somalia's unprotected seas. The local fishermen have suddenly lost their livelihoods, and they are starving. Mohammed Hussein, a fisherman in the town of Marka 100km south of Mogadishu, told Reuters: "If nothing is done, there soon won't be much fish left in our coastal waters."
This is the context in which the men we are calling "pirates" have emerged. Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a 'tax' on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia - and it's not hard to see why. In a surreal telephone interview, one of the pirate leaders, Sugule Ali, said their motive was "to stop illegal fishing and dumping in our waters... We don't consider ourselves sea bandits. We consider sea bandits [to be] those who illegally fish and dump in our seas and dump waste in our seas and carry weapons in our seas." William Scott would understand those words.
No, this doesn't make hostage-taking justifiable, and yes, some are clearly just gangsters - especially those who have held up World Food Programme supplies. But the "pirates" have the overwhelming support of the local population for a reason. The independent Somalian news-site WardherNews conducted the best research we have into what ordinary Somalis are thinking - and it found 70 percent "strongly supported the piracy as a form of national defence of the country's territorial waters." During the revolutionary war in America, George Washington and America's founding fathers paid pirates to protect America's territorial waters, because they had no navy or coastguard of their own. Most Americans supported them. Is this so different?
Did we expect starving Somalians to stand passively on their beaches, paddling in our nuclear waste, and watch us snatch their fish to eat in restaurants in London and Paris and Rome? We didn't act on those crimes - but when some of the fishermen responded by disrupting the transit-corridor for 20 percent of the world's oil supply, we begin to shriek about "evil." If we really want to deal with piracy, we need to stop its root cause - our crimes - before we send in the gun-boats to root out Somalia's criminals.
The story of the 2009 war on piracy was best summarised by another pirate, who lived and died in the fourth century BC. He was captured and brought to Alexander the Great, who demanded to know "what he meant by keeping possession of the sea." The pirate smiled, and responded: "What you mean by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, while you, who do it with a great fleet, are called emperor." Once again, our great imperial fleets sail in today - but who is the robber?
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261 Comments so far
Show AllI heard today on NPR that Obama is weighing whether or not to bomb Somalian terrorist "training camps" because they might pose a threat to the US if they happen to link up with Al Qaeda at some point in the future.Is this not the dumbest thing you ever heard? And what is sad is that the US public will swallow this hook, line, and sinker.
I might resort to crime of some sort, but I would never directly threaten another human being's life for my own survival.
How many of us would not resort to Piracy to survive?
"if you see no reason to fight against a smothering propaganda blanket, then it is truly too late for you."
Passing judgment on my worthiness.
"Although this is your second time specifically coming to Jake's defense, which says something more about you and jake -- than me."
Casting aspersions on my character.
"Just because you fail to perceive the not so hidden implications, hardly makes them go away -- nor does coming to the defense of the "indefensible" lend any credence or authenticity to your own words."
Belittling my ability to perceive, and questioning my credibility.
"Yes, even Jake is "welcome" here -- but I for one believe that everyone should be aware of the load of venom that he carries."
Yes warn people that there are people out there with differing opinions, oooooh scary !
"So perhaps I'm not at all insulting..."
No you're insulting, as I pointed out above, and what's worse is we're generally on the same side of issues.
"just 'belling the cat' and 'shaking a rattle' for the unwary and naive."
Is their anyone here who would consider themselves to be either ? Obviously you do, I would not be so presumptive.
Yawn, you really don't get it, do you ( here's the concept for you = wolves in sheep's clothing ):
"Yes warn people that there are people out there with differing opinions, oooooh scary !"
¿ What part of 'some posters are using outright deceit and misdirection about having a hidden agenda' -- is so difficult for you to understand ?
¿ Is it that logical jump that prevarication is analogous to hidden snakes ( even with venom ) in the grass of our common dreams ?
It must also be presumptive to have substantive discussion about issues, like being lied to and propaganda.
For all of the "insulting … what's worse is we're generally on the same side of issues", and exaggerations attempts to place into my mouth -- about your ideas :
__ worthiness
__ aspersions on my character
__ Belittling my ability to perceive, and
__ questioning my credibility.
You apparently have no substantive response ( even denial ) to anything that I said -- all we have is your emotional tent poles of exaggeration.
¿ If we're really on the same side of many of the issues, how can what I say also be insulting ?
¿ Unless you're one of those self-hating thinkers, that have lost contact with their roots, and can only find love by stopping all processes of thinking ?
Namaste
"some posters are using outright deceit and misdirection about having a hidden agenda' "
Why should this matter if the poster's points and counterpoints can be shown as bugus?
"venom"
Similarly, it is not "venom" as soon as you are able to show his posts to be untrue. No one has, but in your case you are too busy putting the bell on.
You'll figure this out one day.
Believe me, spend two days in the UAE and you will think the country owes its economic success more to the presence there of tens of thousands of relatively well to do Asian entreupreneurs and businesspeople and yes, Western expatriates too. Poorly paid workers are a problem, they are not part of the success story. They will have to be treated better for the success story to be complete.
I went through and read Jake Newton's posts and the only "questions" he raised are in response to clumsy posts by progressives here. He preys on the weakest arguments without making his own valid arguments. Jake N doesn't really substantiate any of his doubts about the author's reporting on the fallacy of Somali Piracy.
Nevertheless, here is an example of Jake Newton's doublespeak:
1.) Nonsense, there exists *straight* reporting of news in the MSM.
2.) That's besides the point, there is *always* bias in straight reporting.
If all news biased (as in spun, not straight) then why bother criticizing CD or anyone? Perhaps JN agrees that some news is less biased and some is more prone to deliberate propaganda? I believe this much is true.
In this case, surely CD deals in bias from time to time and occaisionally prints a small degree of left leaning propaganda. So?
In my perspective, CD is far more open to any topic from all diverse angles; whereas the MSM appears locked in on a pro-corporate, nationalistic propaganda especially pertaining to foreign policy.
Case in point: the absolute MSM denial that the USA has ever done anything to merit antiAmericanism. Supposedly well-read and educated journalists remain dumbfounded as to why or how so many foreigners around the world came to distrust and even hate the USA. They are either in on the whitewashing of our sordid history or they are stupid.
CD is a breath of fresh air compared with the MSM.
"I went through and read Jake Newton's posts"
Thank you for your response and effort.
"He preys on the weakest arguments without making his own valid arguments."
I agree the arguments I responded to are weak. But I would hardly call it "predatory" to simply ask people to back up what they say.
"Jake N doesn't really substantiate any of his doubts about the author's reporting on the fallacy of Somali Piracy."
Actually, I can't think of a single point made by that author that I addressed one way or the other. I've confined my comments to the various responses.
"Nevertheless, here is an example of Jake Newton's doublespeak:"
"1.) Nonsense, there exists *straight* reporting of news in the MSM."
"2.) That's besides the point, there is *always* bias in straight reporting."
No doublespeak there, both 1 and 2 are truthful, and there is no contradiction.
"If all news biased (as in spun, not straight)"
I would call "spin" an *active* attempt to report news to fit some ideology. OTOH, any straight news reporting is biased simply from determining how high up the story is placed, how many words it gets, how much you pay reporters to dig deeper or not etc. Those things may or may not be "spin".
"then why bother criticizing CD or anyone?"
Because sometimes facts and/or reasoning can be shown to be wrong. Other times, I simply ask people to explain their positions, which is not "criticism" at all.
"Perhaps JN agrees that some news is less biased and some is more prone to deliberate propaganda? I believe this much is true."
I agree with the above.
"In my perspective, CD is far more open to any topic from all diverse angles;"
That they consistently allow me to post in the public comment area supports this statement.
"the absolute MSM denial that the USA has ever done anything to merit antiAmericanism."
I think the MSM is hard on the aggressive history of expansion by the US at the cost to Natives. More recently there are those in the MSM who have been very critical of US excursions into Iraq, Vietnam, etc.
Thanks again for your reasonable response.
"I don't very often agree with what Jake N has to say, but I don't see a reason for the insults."
Thank you.
"So far no one has directly answered his questions, and there have been many, many insults. That's a shame because it looks like we are defending empty positions and not truths."
We do agree on this point, at least as it stands now.
… would like some cheese with that whine ?
What whine? Thanking someone is not whining. You are off your game. Pick up the crayons and keep trying.
I don't very often agree with what Jake N has to say, but I don't see a reason for the insults. So far no one has directly answered his questions, and there have been many, many insults. That's a shame because it looks like we are defending empty positions and not truths.
I don't very often know what the truth of any matter is, but I always get closer to it by listening to all the sides. Wish we could do that in an adult way here, it would sure give me hope for humanity that we are not merely just choosing sides because we like what our "brand" is selling.
if you see no reason to fight against a smothering propaganda blanket, then it is truly too late for you.
Although this is your second time specifically coming to Jake's defense, which says something more about you and jake -- than me.
Of course a free discussion is desired, along with a level playing field.
Just because you fail to perceive the not so hidden implications, hardly makes them go away -- nor does coming to the defense of the "indefensible" lend any credence or authenticity to your own words.
Yes, even Jake is "welcome" here -- but I for one believe that everyone should be aware of the load of venom that he carries.
So perhaps I'm not at all insulting -- just 'belling the cat' and 'shaking a rattle' for the unwary and naive.
Namaste
"defense of the "indefensible" "
Namaste, what would be your best example of something I have said in this thread the is "indefensible"?
"So perhaps I'm not at all insulting -- just 'belling the cat' and 'shaking a rattle' for the unwary and naive."
Namaste seemingly holds you all in contempt. How else do we interpret this?
… "holds you all in contempt" is seemingly how you show up to everyone all the time -- which well bookends your apparent conceit.
¿ How is opening the door of awareness and marking the moment "hold[ing] all in contempt" ?
Be careful or carefree, you're starting to play with the big matches now …
I apologize, my statement was extreme in using the word "all". You only hold those that you describe as "the unwary and naive" in contempt. I would only add that whether it's "the unwary and naive" who haven't directly addressed my points or you who are only distracted by the idea of who or what you think *I* am, my points remain.
"Be careful or carefree, you're starting to play with the big matches now …"
*Shudder*
I tinder your resignation, and rust upon your blunted points -- if any could find them.
… and as you obliviously are many sigma along the contemptuousness axis, perhaps we can agree that you are an expert ?
Along the axis of distractedness, you do gain an extreme avalanche of fellow snow-flakes, which BTW is a renown technique of misdirection, disinclination, and instantiation of a disordered and chaotic response and mindset.
¿ Just how many people do you think feel empowered, enlightened, or inclined to be a better or more progressive person -- after reading your "points" ?
I am impressed that you recognize that your "statement was extreme in using the word "all", but I do not feel the regret, just a twinge and "shudder" for having got caught.
Perhaps your presence on CD is for the betterment of people's perceptual skills after all.
Namaste
"Just how many people do you think feel empowered, enlightened, or inclined to be a better or more progressive person -- after reading your "points" ?"
Based on responses to my posts, perhaps just one or two in the "911 was an inside job" type threads. Who knows who is affected and does not say? Otherwise you should not be concerned about my motives as we discussed already.
"I am impressed that you recognize that your "statement was extreme in using the word "all", but I do not feel the regret, just a twinge and "shudder" for having got caught."
Dude, sometimes I hit the submit button without proofreading completely? Relax.
F I G - L E S S
Your inability to address the broader issue of obvious pervasive and persuasive propaganda constantly appearing here in CD discussions,
___ is evidence against your own objectivity, and
___ either shows you up as of limited perceptual abilities
___ or as part of the problem being an element of the apparatus attempting to control and direct our thinking ( both toward the irrelevant, while also away from 'hot button' could incite the masses awareness -- and reaction ).
It is subtly true that it matters not if you get paid to be "anti-progressive", your motives are irrelevant now that we know that you care not for truth -- and are here just to argue -- how sad.
As far as I'm concerned, you are your own worse enemy -- and a perfect instrument to reveal what people really need to know. The more of your type of reptilian thinking cold shameless and blatant disregard for what is good in the life -- the more the people raise up in awareness, and in convulsive repulsion. Please do invite your friends over for more …
As far as your "pound" of cure that you have for us progressives and our "mal"adapted anti-banksterism free thinking -- please do take "that and a bucket of sand" -- and file it away where the Sun doesn't shine.
Namaste
P . S .
It is a humorous twist for you to so well avail yourself to a subject matter that is clearly so close to you and everything you are about
[ _____ Y O U _ A R E _ B E I N G _ L I E D _ T O _____ ]
"is evidence against your own objectivity"
Just to settle this, I know I am not objective, no one is.
"control and direct our thinking"
It's a shame that you have such little regard for the intellectual ability of yourself or others here. No one can "control and direct" your *cRITICAL THINKING*, assuming you aspire to aquire and keep honed such skills.
"It is subtly true that it matters not if you get paid to be "anti-progressive","
It's *overtly* true, so I guess we agree somewhat.
"your motives are irrelevant now that we..."
My motives are *always* irrelevant to what I write here. When will you figure that out?
"and are here just to argue -- how sad."
Why is it "happy" for you to let stand statements made that cannot be supported by fact and *argument*, as though "argument" represented something so lowly as you suggest? Why would it be "sad" to persuade someone through argument? I suppose you are "happy" when you have as many as possible dancing in the CD Conga Line instead? How unbelievably dull is that?
"As far as I'm concerned, you are your own worse enemy"
Why have you been so obsessed with who or what you think I am, and for so long now? If you can or want to respond to what I write, do so. If not, don't.
"our "mal"adapted anti-banksterism free thinking"
Namaste, what the hell are you talking about?
"where the Sun doesn't shine."
Classy.
Your outright denial of a systematic policy and apparatus of propaganda is very foolish.
As far as my " little regard for the intellectual ability of yourself or others here", that is a LIE, and I've clearly said that your deceptive prevarication is its own worst enemy -- because of basic human perceptual abilities.
Your feeble attempt to "plug the hole in TRUTH", is shamefully plaintive PSYOPS :
"No one can "control and direct" your *cRITICAL THINKING*"
Perhaps you might consider reading _ 1 9 8 4 _, now that's something really classy:
"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"
"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain."
"Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty and then we shall fill you with ourselves."
"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from all the oligarchies of the past, in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just round the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power."
"A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one's will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp."
Yes, I'm so convinced that propaganda is just a delusion of the clueless …
Namaste
"Your outright denial of a systematic policy and apparatus of propaganda is very foolish."
I never denied it, in fact I agree it exists so I don't see how you could write that. But I would ask for you to demonstrate that it exists beyond a level that I already know about, and please stop projecting your preconcieved notions.
"As far as my " little regard for the intellectual ability of yourself or others here", that is a LIE,"
No, an opinion. I have no way of knowing the level of regard that you actually have, therefore I could not possibly lie about it.
"Perhaps you might consider reading _ 1 9 8 4 _,"
Yes, 35 years ago. Nostalgic and quaint the way people are all still obsessed with that work of *fiction*. I recall an essential and fantastic device that "Big Brother", via the "Thought Police" used was a two-way television set disseminated into *private homes*.
for some, jakenewton, the question has to be asked, if only for clarification.
for others, jakenewton, there is no doubt.
Back in the Conga Line there.
As an avid sailor who will transit the Gulf of Aden one day soon, I say HANG EM ALL. Let the pirates bodies pile up on the shores of Somalia as a object lesson to all.
"The only means of strengthening one's intellect is to make up one's mind about nothing, to let the mind be a thoroughfare for all thoughts." - John Keats
Democracy Now picked up this story for its Tuesday, April 14th show. There is excellent (for me, not seen before) footage and interviews with Somali fishermen and an interesting interview/analysis piece with a Kenya-based Somali writer about the complexities of the situation at DemocracyNow.org.
Marian Swanzy-Parker
Thanks, I can pick it up on the internet.
I have a pretty strong hunch that these kidnap-crazy Pirates and the toxic waste dumps are being exploited to make the horn of Somalia so uninviting that nosy journalists would never dare enter. Why?
Because the cell phone/laptop mineral (cobalt-tantalum) found only in high grades at dirt cheap prices in Northeastern DR COngo is smuggled northeast through the same corridor that leads to Somalia. Think about it. When did cell phones and laptops become worldwide huge markets? When did that entire region crumble into civil wars? Coincidence? I don't think so.
Rwanda has no cobalt-tantalum but exports billions of dollars in it annually? The wars from Congo to Dafur to Rwanda/Uganda/Burundi to Ethiopia-Eritrea-Somalia have something in common. Blood coltan.
Do we, the primary consumers of cell phones and laptops ever hear anything about this? Never!
We are expected to believe that the only cause for war in Africa is tribalism.
Good observation and interpretation. I hadn't thought of that connection before.
Good observation...coltan has become the new blood diamond.
Edit: Since coltan seems to be required for miniaturized electronics, at least in communications equipment, I wonder just how much coltan our drones use?
Which drones? The weapons, or the average cell phone/laptop user?
lol, nice one.
sure.....lets get the facts from "aljezeera"...then we'll know whats "really true"......get real
Blugies,
So where do you get what's "really true"?
Oh no, a non-Western perspective! How can we ever believe anything they say?? Since America's media is just so outstandingly ethical and only does genuinely honest reporting!
Al-Jazeera had a segment earlier this year about toxic dumping in Somalia that some of you might have seen:
http://english.aljazeera.net/programmes/peopleandpower/2009/01/200911873234971487.html
Damn I haven't checked Al-Jazeera in too long...CD needs to start carrying articles from it again.
NEWS AFRICA
Somali pirates capture more vessels
Armed pirate gangs operate from the small towns
and villages along Somalia's coast [File: AFP]
Somali pirates have captured two cargo vessels in the Gulf of Aden, taking at least 22 people hostage, a Nato spokesman has said.
The hijackings of a Lebanese-owned freighter and a Greek merchant ship on Tuesday were the latest in a string of attacks off the coast of Somalia.
Gunmen seized the first ship overnight - the Greek-owned MV Irene E M - and took the 22-man Filipino crew hostage.
Hours later the second vessel, the Togo-flagged MV Sea Horse, was taken about 140km off Somalia's coast.
The 35,000-tonne MV Irene E M sent out a pre-dawn distress call but was rapidly taken, Alexandre Fernandes, a Nato Lieutenant Commander, said.
"There was only three minutes between the alarm and the hijack," Fernandes said.
"They attacked at night, which was very unusual. They were using the moonlight as it's still quite bright."
Helicopter deployed
A Canadian warship has sent a helicopter to gain information as to the condition of the MV Irene E M.
"There are hostages so now we will shadow and monitor the situation," Fernandes said.
Shona Lowe, a UK-based Nato spokeswoman, confirmed the hijacking of the second vessel was unable to say how many crew may have been taken hostage.
She said that the pirates attacked from "three or four skiffs".
Also on Tuesday, the pirates launched a third attack, attempting to board the vessel while firing automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades.
The attacks follow eight other hijackings by pirates in the busy shipping lanes of the Indian Ocean since the beginning of April.
Counter-operations
Foreign navies patrol the area in an attempt to prevent the hijackings and in two recent raids they killed five pirates, rescuing a captured American captain and freeing a French yacht.
On Monday, the head of the group that seized the Maersk Alabama, from which the American was taken, vowed to retaliate for the deaths of his comrades.
The gangs, most of which are based in villages and small towns along Somalia's coast, demand multi-million dollar ransoms for the return of captured vessels.
Chris Davies, a commander from Nato's maritime command, told Al Jazeera that pirate attacks have increased but that operations against them might now be working.
Nato's fleet comprises of seven ships, including three with Nato's other alliances, in the area of about 1.1 million square miles of ocean where the pirates are operating.
Three other coalitions, including the EU, have vessels in the area as well as individual nations, such as India and Japan.
'Changing tactics'
"Without question there has been an increase [in attacks] in the last 12 months. There was a sharp rise in 2008 and that has continued into 2009," Davies said.
"[But] what we have seen is if there is a war ship or one of the alliances in the area, you don't see the pirates."
Davies said that the gangs could now be changing their tactics in attacking overnight due to the counter-operations.
"If they are doing that perhaps we are having an effect. They are not going out with impunity, they are trying to second guess where the ships are."
Analysts have said that until there is political stability in Somalia, where battles between the government and opposition fighters have precipitated a humanitarian crisis, it will be very difficult to prevent the armed gangs working offshore.
Source: Al Jazeera and agencies
Now what will Obama do?
I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE WILL DO.
I hope he begins a comprehensive peace negotiation.
Sure I am glad the Captain was rescued.
But if this ends up as a call for an invasion of Somalia, with tousands of people killed good and bad, I am not ready to celebrate and if the Pirates offered to release the Captain if they went home free, I don't see this as making heroes out of snipers or the president who ordered the hit.
This should have been an opening to negotiate the issue and talk to the pirates who seem to have support from the majority in their country.
.
perhaps common dreams would/could/should change the title of this article to the jakenewton comedy hour.
and thomas more, once again you never cease to amaze us. are you really such a fucking moron, or is it just an act?
"perhaps common dreams would/could/should change the title of this article to the jakenewton comedy hour."
Perhaps this is evidence that you are poorly equipped to make any direct response to the points I've made. *shrug*
"fucking moron"
Classy.
Somali pirates vs. Private Equity Pirates:
One can always tell when an issue has reached the height of absurdity, banality, and vacuousness — when Glenn Beck gets involved.
To put the pirates to a useful task all we have to do is convince them to keel haul Beck and Rush-flab.
In all seriousness, the private equity pirates cause five orders of magnitude more harm to the world (and the ‘commonwealth’ of our world’s human economy) than these Somali pirates ever could.
If there is to be any ‘rope dancing’ from the yard arm it should start with the ruling-elite ‘corporate financial Empire’ that controls our country behind the facade of their two-party ‘Vichy’ sham of democracy, aided by paid ‘Vichy’ radical right wing-nut media, starting with Black-beard Murdoch, Rush-slush, and Beck the peck(er).
Most people don’t seem to realize that the ruling-elite Empire is taking Jay Gould’s advice (”I can hire half the working class to kill the other half”) — but now the elitist Empire saves money by just hiring a few peons and morons like Beck and Rush to incite half the impressionable American’s to fight the other half, and blame it on the government, which is the only democratic instrument standing in the way of a total corporate take-over.
Alan MacDonald
Sanford, Maine
Hats off to the Navy and the Seals.....they had it coming......no collateral damage......should these animals be allowed to continue? Come on you people...right and wrong....You would NOT say the same if you were a family member of the skipper...Anchors Aweigh
I think a point that is being missed here is that whenever there is economic disparity between people, the crime rate will go up. Piracy is a crime, no better or worse than the sanctified Wall Street piracy. Gun crime is suddenly rising in this nation, it's no question why, history bears it out: economic disparity.
So my point is that we need to work on (economic et al) equality for all the world's people. To not do that is immoral, IMO, and we(the US) are currently involved in (whether conciously or unconciously and at what level, is debatable) fueling such disparity.
That being said the pirates are still criminals, IMO. I would love to see a transcript of hostage negotiations, they had a perfect audience for putting forward a plan for request more moral treatment of their fellow human beings, but I don't know that they did that, or if they just requested the cash.
marc
Something doesn't sound right (and forgive me if I'm repeating a thought others have written about because I haven't read many of the entries) but in one breath, Johann Hari, you say the waters and land by the coast is contaminated and in the next breath you claim european scoundrals are fishing out of those waters - does that sound right to anyone, that the very countries that are contaminating the waters with dangerous material are also guilty of taking fish from the very same area and using it? it just doesn't ring true.
These pirates would have done well to allow this american flagged ship carrying food aid to kenya to pass. ' Be careful what you wish for ' and ' don't mistake temptation for opportunity.'
True, but this article does seem to imply that there is more organization to the pirates than I think i can give them credit for.
I suspect that many, indeed maybe most, of these pirates are no better than criminals and kidnappers.
However, this clearly does not justify our dumping of radioactive and toxic waste off the shores of Somalia. Which I also assume is true because it just makes so much sense, with a failed state also comes opportunity for exploitation. I have never known corporations to NOT take advantage of something like that.
Sorry, I am having problems with my computer. The accurate website article from which this one is derived is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-vazquez/on-pirates_b_186015.html
This is not apologist horseshit. Actually, it is an older article.
Check out:
www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-vazquez/on-pirates_b_186015.html
It's always the same, to attach and crucify the disenfranchised: the poor, the weak, the different. The gypsy, the homosexual, the welfare queen, the "terrorist, the pirate, the jew, etc, etc. Some of these groups must be portrayed as so bad, so evil, so contemptible ("the worst of the worst") as to be beyond any consideration of defense. Thus there are no trials for the gitmo imprisoned, as giving them a trial would acknowledge on some level that they are human beings and therefor would not fulfill their scapegoating mechanism. That is why they are subhuman, devilish, entities, so we can project (dump) all our collective (conscious or unconscious) dark and hateful impulses on their helpless asses. Maybe they will wash away our dark shadow side by their sacrifice and we will become cleansed and pure again - (religious similarities intended).
Note the above's absolute outrage of anyone that would come to the defense of the pirates even in the most general terms. You may take away some of our loved ones (we tolerate, encourage and even honor the imperialistic/soldiers/enforcers - even in their death), but never, never, try and take away my enemy as psychologically without him I only see my own self reflection.... and in it, my own terrifying guilt.
Secondly it is always easy to confuse wealth and power with greatness. It just fits so easy into our collective myths about god, work, reward, and achievement. We, who have been in the army, or similar hierarchal organizations, all get a little weak-kneed when the general walks by. Note I am not saying that wealthy and powerful people can't achieve greatness, obviously some, maybe even many do. I am just saying that for many of us it much easier to bow down to great power, wealth, or fame without the same discriminating faculties we engage for others. We seem to have two different sets of judgments and standards in which we judge "everyman" from the elite. Look at recent events where the U.S. is above the law; Bush by his unitary executive, and signing statements is above the law; and the masters of the universe (the financial and wall-street wizards) are above the law. When they fail they fail upwards ..... just like the god's we have mistaken them for.
Modern piracy is a world-wide phenomenon. The link below provides information on world-wide piracy as of 2006. For what it's worth, I offer it as background reading for those involved in this thread.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/07/060706-modern-pirates.html
The Somalis have been having a very bad century so far, nothing ever seems to work, and when it looks like it might, the u.s.a. will be sure to stop it. i don't know why.
i have lots of Somali friends, and they are quite wonderful people, although of course i never met any of those war lord dudes who started shooting up the place back in the 90s.
Anyway i am with the pirates here- i believe their srory, that they were rtrying to protect their fishery, and prevent nuclear dumping.
besides it's become almost a reflex to not believe what military people say on land or sea. or to trust somebody who tells us we are being lied to. There's something really easy to believe.
Here is my letter to the Common Dreams editor expressing my disgust and disappointment,
Dear Common Dreams,
Hello. My name is Suhail Shafi and I am a regular visitor to your superb website.
Today, I would like to write to you expressing my deepest sense of disappointment in your decision to publish the following article -
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/13-6
I am extremely saddened that you in the Independent would choose to publish an article that openly condones - implicitly or otherwise the totally unacceptable behaviour of pirates in the Indian ocean that is a menace to the global economy. This is something that goes totally against the grain of the ideology that Common Dreams represents - respect for the law among other things. As a fellow progressive, I beseech you not to undermine your journalistic ethics by condoning the actions of pirates in the Indian ocean that are undermining innocent lives and the flow of global commerce. Please understand that progressives and journalists have nothing in common, either with the pirates or the likes of their apologists exemplified by the author of this piece.
Sorry, this isn't your precious Dubai. You don't get to tell anyone what to publish or not.
"This is something that goes totally against the grain of the ideology that Common Dreams represents - respect for the law among other things"
You mean you want Common Dreams to represent an ideology whereby the laws are used to justify everything, including suppression of speech and free expression; such as in Dubai.
Also, since you are lecturing people on progressive values, I suggest you begin with your precious Dubai, and talk about, oh, for example, the rights of women in Dubai.
Hello ! Are you even aware that the UAE's minister of economic affair is a woman ? A very very very important portfolio in a country that is so keen on integrating with the global economy.
Besides, what is your problem with Dubai ? It is a peaceful, prosperous country that unlike some other nations does not start wars, attack other nations, fabricate nonsense about non existent WMDs, violate UN resolutions, international laws by the bucketload, use F 16s and Apache helicopters against unarmed populations, mow down unarmed protester with machines guns or anything hideous like that.
If it did, it would have qualified for US aid....hee hee hee.
I have as much a right to express my point of view and if someone publishes something as ridiculous as a justification for the awful behaviour of pirates in the Indian ocean, I have a right to question it.
wrong thread.
From what I have read, much of Abu Dhabi's success, certainly at least its construction boom, is due to South Asian immigrant workers that are treated about as crappy, if not more, as they are here in America.
"Besides, what is your problem with Dubai ? It is a peaceful, prosperous country that unlike some other nations does not start wars, attack other nations, fabricate nonsense about non existent WMDs, violate UN resolutions, international laws by the bucketload, use F 16s and Apache helicopters against unarmed populations, mow down unarmed protester with machines guns or anything hideous like that."
Suhail: Let me make one clear to you. I have wholeheartedly condemned the US's behavior regarding WMD's, UN resolution violations, international law, etc. That makes me different from you. I'm not afraid to criticize my country when it errs. However, according to you Dubai can do no wrong. No disrespect, but you remind me of these right wingers in the US who bellow "My country, right or wrong.". I personally have nothing against Dubai and I wish their people well. What I am against however, is seeing people sleep in cars waiting for the loved ones to get out of jail (like the Hari article stated, whether you want to believe it or not). I'm against people being prevented from being able to form unions (anywhere!). I'm against people being thrown in jail for falling on financial hard times and being unable to pay debts. I'm against people being jailed for having a couple of sesame seeds on them. I'm against people who don't pay wages that are rightly due workers (like what's going on in Dubai and elsewhere for that matter). I sincerely apologize to you if I got on your wrong side regarding Dubai. That was not my intention. I felt the article was good reading because it dealt with human suffering, even in a well-to-do place like Dubai. You also harbor a personal hatred towards Hari and that's your right. But maybe that's something you ought to take up with him. I wish no harm on you or Dubai, but you are as equally destructive in your criticism of Hari; just as you perceive that he is being destructively critical of Dubai.
Apology accepted.
Let me make a few points. I condemn Hari's implicit condoning of these senseless sttacks on merchant ships. There is no justification at all for this kind of savagery, taking innocent sailors hostage and endangering their lives. Do people on this forum, a progressive forum have no compassion for the families of people who are kidnapped by hostage takers for no reason at all. I do not know if there is toxic dumping going on in the Indian Ocean, but even if, the merchant sailors are not responsible directly for it so these pirates have no right at all to make them scapegoats.
As regards Dubai, well I am surprised we even need a discussion on that subject, the city is peaceful, prosperous, successful ( until the crisis struck ) and minds its own business, so the kind of gratuitous hate exemplified by Hari has no basis whatsover. I have seen the conditions in Dubai with my own eyes, many Indians and Westerners there are doing very well, many workers are living in deplorable conditions, the authorities there are taking steps to help out but the kind of bigotry exemplified by the things I have read in the last two days (referring to its people as ``greedy freaks'' and its architecture as ``vomit coloured'' and the city as a ``shithole'' helps no one. It is a sign of insecurity and yes, RACISM and no thinking mind would be right in thinking otherwise.
For the record, I am not from Dubai, I am not Arab, and I think prosecuting people for lewd acts on the beach and assaulting a police officer ( that part was not mentioned by the press ) - is not such an unconscionable travesty.
"Hello ! Are you even aware that the UAE's minister of economic affair is a woman ? A very very very important portfolio in a country that is so keen on integrating with the global economy."
Hello ! Do women have equal rights with men in Dubai or the UAE?
"Besides, what is your problem with Dubai ?" "I have as much a right to express my point of view and if someone publishes something as ridiculous as a justification for the awful behaviour of pirates in the Indian ocean, I have a right to question it."
My problem is with your attempt to censor opinions you do not like. If you disagree with Hari's opinion, you have every right to express your disagreement, to refute Hari's opinion, to rubbish Hari's opinion; you do not have a right to attempt to censor it. Again, this isn't Dubai.
On the First point, it depends how you define ``equal rights''. Please remember that as recently as a generation ago American women and African Americans had few political rights.
On the second point, if you go through my posts, you will find I have been refuting and rubbishing Hari's points all along. At no point did I ever ``censor'' his views. Relevantly, I am not in a position to ``censor'' them at all. I only questioned the appropriateness of an implicit justification of piracy on a progressive website. I am within my rights as a forumer to question that, just like another forumer questioned that. We have that right and we will not give it up. Dubai is not relevant to this point at all as even they, to the best of my knowledge have not censored this man's nonsense. Makes them look rather open minded, unfortunately that cannot be said of the people who have attacked Dubai in terms that are less-than-civilized.
Dear Mr Shafi,
You said, and I quote:
"I am extremely saddened that you in the Independent would choose to publish an article that openly condones - implicitly or otherwise the totally unacceptable behaviour of pirates in the Indian ocean that is a menace to the global economy. This is something that goes totally against the grain of the ideology that Common Dreams represents - respect for the law among other things. " - unquote.
Contrary to what you say Suhail, it is my observation Common Dreams does indeed respect the law. It is against international law to raid fisheries or dump nuclear or shipping waste except as agreed to by grinding non-toxic substances in accordance with maritime law. Common Dreams is merely reporting what the Huffington post has already reported if my understanding of copyright is valid. In fact, respect for the law may be sacred in UAE, but it is not here. Any law is challengeable. And if it is found to be in violation of the Supreme Law of the Land it must be disobeyed. For example: "The right of... freeedom of the press shall not be infringed."
It appears to me that you are attempting to censor news you feel theatens you. Such solicited censorship by you, if honored, is in violation of our supreme law, Mr. Shaft.
May I suggest you learn how to selectively read, instead of trying to coerce others into printing what you want to see published. If this piece offends or saddens you, perhaps you should click the "X" in the Window corner.
This is a very good story, credible, and will no doubt increase traffic to these progressive pillars of the free press.
Best Regards,
TJ
"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent." - Thomas Jefferson
Suhal Shafi
I do not believe that Mr. Hari's article should be banned or censored because he has the temerity to attempt to look at the situation from the pirate's point of view and for him to wonder if there may have been any justification at all for what they did. Your type of demand, it seems to me, is what one would expect of a neoconservative or a fascist than of one who comments on a progressive web site.
The article is reactionary. U.S. is always bad. Tiresome garbage. Some UN guy says toxic waste being dumped and fish being stolen so now the pirates are eco-warriors and Robin Hoods. GEEEEEEEZZZ!
Promise the Somalians that we'll let them surrender. Then, when they stand up, shoot them. Then activate the CNN hero crap.
Have to agree with the poster about the "tone". The article is correct, but so is everyone else. How many fishing trawlers have been ransomed? None that I know of, only large cargo ships that, not only have no interest in fishing, but would just as soon avoid Somalia completely. And now they are capturing ships three or four hundred miles off shore in the Indian ocean? Here's what, in my mind, has happened: illegal fishing -> fighting against illegal fishing -> taking over fishing boats in Somali waters -> using said fishing boats to capture larger boats and commit crimes of their own. And while it's true that the US and other western powers did nothing to stop the illegal fishing, the Somalis had the option of only stopping the illegal fishing and not moving up to capturing passing oil tankers and supply ships. Just as the fishermen paid for their illegality, the Somali pirates will do the same.
pirates?
well...whatever you want to call it, it's a sad deal
great article
Ye gods! Reading the above (or below) is like listening to a bunch of grade school kids arguing on the playground.
"Did too."
"Did not."
"Did too!"
"Did not!"
"DID TOO!"
"DID NOT!"
"NYAHH!"
"NYAHH, NYAHH NYAHH!!!"
For crying out loud, read what you are wasting time arguing about!
The only heroes here are the Somali Coast Guard.
I tried to post a reply to a comment regarding Johann Hari's piece, but it doesn't seem to go through. I don't know what's up with that. Anyways, what I meant to say that I find Johann Hari's journalism impeccable. I would also recommend that everyone read his chilling report on Dubai that came out last week.
His article on Dubai was a piece of racist garbage, just like this article. Not worth anyone's time.
It was worth mine. Deal with it!
Winning ticket
Well said. My sentiments exactly.
Erroll: Thank you for your kind response. Take care.
Thomas More should by now have a job at the State Department (he could man the photocopying machine), or maybe The Council on Foreign Relations would be willing to give him a gofer job.
"...you ended up in a floating wooden Hell. You worked all hours on a cramped, half-starved ship, and if you slacked off for a second, the all-powerful captain would whip you with the Cat O' Nine Tails. If you slacked consistently, you could be thrown overboard. And at the end of months or years of this, you were often cheated of your wages."
Great article! This is what it was like to be in the employ of the former Evil Empire (Britain) back in the 1800's. During this time Pirates invented the health and disability fund - baisically "worker comp."
Pirates would not be so popular if the Global Empire was not so evil.
Some people understand this intuitively, even if they don't know the history. Pirates feared subjugation to a corrupt authority worse than death; And we wonder why people have always romanticized the Pirate Life...Arrrrr!
And how do the modern-day pirates of Wall Street get to work? They drive their carrrrr!
And they plunder, rape, and murder with a pen...
Putrid reasoning TM? One thing I can tell you for sure: YOU cannot believe anything you have been told by our government as they lie to us in just about everything; especially the putrid and punic lies of our foreign policy. There is always 2 sides and Johann Hari was just pointing out the other side. I am happy the Captain was rescued, but do not believe what I am told until I check it out for myself.
The ONLY positive thing I can say about the pernicious poster Thomas More is that atr least he is not posting 40 comments on every thread like he used to do to drive everybody else away.
he is one of the most deliberately ignorant people ever to post here.
Please refrain from personal attacks. Thomas More is more than entitled to his views and his criticism of this article's apologistic attitude towards pirates is more than legitimate.
If he disagreed with your nitwitticisms you'd be screaming Off with his head.
Grow up.
"Please refrain from personal attacks."
You would think "progressives" would know to do this.
You would think that real "progressives"
… might just realize that they're being played for fools by those whose purpose entails snakily twisted dis-information, targeted divisiveness -- who apologetically want us to believe that they're progressives -- when everything that they say is so NOT SO.
An authentic progressive would tolerate the ebb and flow, so as to not interfere with free exchange and when there's something like meat on the bone of contention.
A propagandist who purposely re-vectors postings might exaggerate what people might expect, in order to influence the direction of the discussion ( away from relevance, and toward chaos ), and shame those who really have something to say ( and who properly demonstrate disgust to those miscreants and manipulators that continually act much dumber than credibly possible.
Of course it's a slippery slope to accuse posters of posing and prevaricating, but then again standing up against the slings and arrows of life IS relevant and automatically generates authenticity -- the context and fruit of the tree falls not so far away.
We ( our tree of life ) are known my our own fruits, and if they stink and or are bitter -- why is that a problems to acknowledge or note ?
I submit that the hand of gov't propaganda apparatus is constantly stirring here on CD's discussions, and it is clearly evident in viewing certain poster's history, often simply for reason to thwart and discourage newbies from gaining confidence and relevant connections.
And when we are in fact, being insidiously hacked at and attacked by the propaganda machine's agents and shills, are we to refrain from self-defense and the possibility to circle the wagons in common ( dreams ) defense ?
You aint my Mama, and I have substantial basis for my responses ( why are there so many snakes and wolves out in this dreamland of common possibilities ) -- and what's your excuse ?
[ _____ T R U S T , _ but _ V E R I F Y _____ ]
Namaste
Hi Namaste. You can't resist. :-) Another new name for you I see.
"might just realize that they're being played for fools by those whose purpose entails"
Regarding the above, "Appeal to Motive" is a fallacy of logic and you know that already.
"who apologetically want us to believe that they're progressives -- when everything that they say is so NOT SO."
You couldn't possibly mean me. I am not a "progressive", that should settle that.
"An authentic progressive would tolerate the ebb and flow, so as to not interfere with free exchange and when there's something like meat on the bone of contention."
You mean tolerate name calling, ad hominem and straw man arguments for the sake of "free exchange"? No one should do that, progressive or otherwise.
“Of course it's a slippery slope to accuse posters of posing and prevaricating, “
And also a logical fallacy.
"I submit that the hand of gov't propaganda apparatus is constantly stirring here on CD's discussions,"
Serious question for you: Do you *really* think I get paid to post here? Or is it so far fetched to believe that there are many people who disagree with the general slant that CD represents and just want to debate?
F I G - L E S S
s e e __ a b o v e
Namaste
I really don't care if YOU get paid to post here.
But there are plenty who DO.
The government of Israel pays a lot of you to get on here and shit in the sandbox.
And then there are the dimwits and senile sloppushers who have nothing better to do than smear it around.
The genuine posters here who have any committment to REAL change and saving this damaged planet we live on can be counted on a hand or two.
The rest: plastic progressives, who think labelling themselves "progressives" means thet can continue right on their merry destructive way--shopping, fastfooding, spewing out expended gasoline, running the airconditioning 24/7, playng with the remote control and with themselves. Business as usual.
"I really don't care if YOU get paid to post here."
Good. You shouldn't.
"The government of Israel pays a lot of you"
LOL! Can you walk us through the business model please? I'm serious, think about it a bit and write back. How much do you think they pay "a lot of you"? How exactly do you think the "government of Israel" benefits? Does the cost/benefit analysis hold up? LOL!
This obsession here with the idea that your opposition on an *Internet Discussion Forum* is paid by some governmant is a result of your inability to reconcile that you sometimes can't effectively express your ideas or properly back them up. If you could just do that, it wouldn't matter if your opponent were paid.
But it is flattering. *blush*
Obvously I hit paydirt, as you started kicking up dust like there was no tomorrow.
Another zionist shill exposed.
I already posted the info about the Israeli recruitment of internet posters a while back--when your employers were bombing the shit out of pregnant women in Gaza.
"Obvously I hit paydirt, as you started kicking up dust like there was no tomorrow."
Obviously you are very full of yourself. You merely lack the imagination required to understand that there are many people today who simply like to debate politics on internet forums.
"Another zionist shill exposed."
*blush*
Except that I haven't discussed anything related to Israel here. Hmmmm.
I already invited you to show us all how the business plan including your cost/benefit analysis of this enterprise of mine works. Had you tried that you would have avoided the embarrassment of this last post of yours. The costs are my fee of course. How much do you think I made for my posts in this thread? Then you compare that to the benefits. How many people do you think were swayed by reading my posts here, and to what extent does that materially help the Israeli government? Sharpen your crayons and get to work dude. I eagarly await your response!
Brilliant post Pat. Brilliant. Now get back into the Conga Line.
He's not sorry, nor is he anyone's pal.
He's even deluded enough into seeing yourself and myself as one and the same.
He's overtly bristling about being on the crayola payola, but doesn't want to admit that in public.
I do hope that he eventually does get that to that "point", if he just perseveres enough …
He might even be jealous with you ( PAT GARRETT ) having a "six" shooter, when his is of a lower caliber and chamber.
It's a challenge, but sometimes he even can make other Zionists look good.
Namaste
"the crayola payola,"
Still looking for that business model and cost/benefit analysis. While you obsess with who or what you think I am, maybe you'll get around to that exercise.
Namaste: How much do you think I get paid?
"He might even be jealous with you ( PAT GARRETT )"
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!! Pat doesn't address points directly either, in case you missed it. Yeah, I'm *burning* with jealousy! Lol...
The Zionists of the World appreciate
___ your commitment
___ to making them look better
Namaste. Conga Line. Go.
"LOL! Can you walk us through the business model please?"
¿ … can you say " M a r k e t i n g __ P l a n " ?
Of course it is significantly to the 'brand advantage', for the power elite to pay handsomely to mislead the gullible and ignorant from the truth and honest understanding of the facts.
As for this being an obsession, I hardly think there is any evidence of disproportional response -- and specific opposition of any point of view means nothing.
It is clear and long established branding pattern, that is the 'figure ground reversal' here.
As far as "Properly backup", you must be kidding right ? Or is that part of your asymmetric warfare posture 'toolkit' of discussion imbalances ?
"Of course it is significantly to the 'brand advantage', for the power elite to pay handsomely to mislead the gullible and ignorant from the truth and honest understanding of the facts."
So Namaste, do you think I am being paid to post here? If so, how much do you think I get and from who?
Your oblivious inability to argue forward, denial of, nor response in any logical manner -- about your own point about "ludicrous" and obvious cost disadvantages of propaganda, must be again having had you to resort to LOL'ing -- hopefully while ROTF -- away from your keyboard.
You quip … "do you think I am being paid to post here?"
I said earlier -- it matters not -- but I'll repeat it, as you show a well established pattern of purposefully staged forgetfulness.
"it matters not"
While it was not really an answer to the question I posed, you of course being under no obligation, you and I are in lock step agreement with the above statement. Imagine that.
"patgarrett", you aren't getting paid either. In light of that fact, think a little on what you just wrote above. Think. Somewhere in that brain it may dawn on you that there are many, many people who simply like to discuss politics with those having opposing views. In the meantime, try to work up that cost/benefit analysis on why anyone would actually pay me to do this, that will help you lead to the much more obvious conclusion. Remember to show your work!
They do in real life. But instead they use the internet to act less civilized. Just like many people on RedState or Town Hall, only the opposite.
"he is one of the most deliberately ignorant people ever to post here."
And you are brilliant I suppose.....
DELIBERATE ignorance is not about intelligence. It's about committing oneself to living with one's head up one's ass.
(Learn to read, bubba.)
He's actually more of a "poser" than a "poster".
Yes, well said, and
we should by now have realized that the entire purpose of most of what we read is ( as the title says )
"You Are Being Lied to About "… x y z
Why should we carry the expectation of authenticity to those who "publish" anonymously, when the evidence is that they appear to well mirror the officious edificial diarrhea being pumped around labeled as sunshine ?
The majority of those who are out in the clear and do publish with credentials -- are renown for shoveling shit for grasps at the hem of power.
Namaste
i'm so glad i'm a vegan..................
wouldn't want to be eating any of the fish from that area............
Maybe the Somalis will have their revenge as the radiated fish are served in the finest restuarants of London, NY, Tokyo...
Somalia's coastline is over 2,000 miles long.
No need for the toxic dumping to be occurring at the same location as the illegal fishing.
Yeah, and of course toxic waste always stays exactly where it's dumped, and its location is clearly marked and shared to all who may fish there.
There's no need for the toxic dumping to occur anywhere.
q
"Why are you a pirate?" "That's where the money is," said the young Somali native.
"Why do you turn toxic sub-prime mortgages into AAA rated securities?" That's where the money is, answered the young Wall Streeter.
From Dr Wu's latest book: "Your Pirates and Mine"
TM: No one is forcing you to read CD. The author is merely trying to point out some facts that I certainly wasn't aware of. You should return to your FOX news propaganda reports so you can feel better, and please refrain from using profanity on CD. And, if some of these words are too difficult to comprehend, (as I've seen some of your uniformed rants in the past on CD), then look them up if you know how.
"The author is merely trying to point out some facts that I certainly wasn't aware of."
Could you give an example?
You obviously did not read the article did you?
"GreenGoddess" stated she was unsure of certain facts put forth in the article. How would my reading the article inform me of what facts GreenGoddess was not aware of? I am *Horrified* that you miss this basic point.
You are absolutely right, no one is forced to read here, therefore please do not attempt to censor profanity. Not being edited is one of the best things about this chat forum. Feel free to opine about grammar, syntax and spelling, criticize the concepts all you want but not the words with which we we express them.
The choice is clear
aaah yes, let us glorify the somali pirates - after all they are modern day robin hoods, stealing from those rich greedy superpowers and giving the spoils of the sea to ..... themselves.
please people, these pirates are a menace to international shipping and are dangerous. The Navies of all nations should identify and destroy known pirate vessels WITHOUT provocation.
and for LicketyGlick
'And did they really have to kill those three guys?'
as they shot at the captain on his first escape attempt, and held an AK 47 to his head throughout the negotiations, yes, they had to kill them. too bad they didnt do it on the FIRST attempt at escape.
So, to get their side of the story is to glorify them. And what should we do about the real pirates, the menaces of Wall Street who ply the sea of finance, looting and plundering entire nations, leaving millions in poverty?
we should seperate our rage and focus on them, but this is about seafaring bastards in Somalia, not on Wall St.
Whereas I certainly don't condone violence or hostage-taking, I don't believe this article or many of the posts here are about "glorifying the Somali pirates", as you say. I think it is about pointing out another, much-needed side of the story and the hypocrisy of the American government/military/media. There are very valid and relevant arguments behind the Somalis' actions, and the US is a huge pirate nation that steals from others all the time. A story of Alexander the Great will illustrate my point: when a "pirate" was hauled before Alexander and Alexander asked him why he should feel the right to plunder the booty from the seas, the man replied "When I do it with one ship, I am called a pirate. When you do it with a fleet of ships, they call you Emperor."
aaah yes, let us glorify the somali pirates - after all they are modern day robin hoods, stealing from those rich greedy superpowers and giving the spoils of the sea to ..... themselves.
please people, these pirates are a menace to international shipping and are dangerous. The Navies of all nations should identify and destroy known pirate vessels WITHOUT provocation.
and for LicketyGlick
'And did they really have to kill those three guys?'
as they shot at the captain on his first escape attempt, and held an AK 47 to his head throughout the negotiations, yes, they had to kill them. too bad they didnt do it on the FIRST attempt at escape.
It seems that under everything we believe we KNOW, there a lie waiting to be exposed.
Myth upon myth, lie upon lie. Mammon and the pursuit of profit blinds us to everything. Are we really that different from the primitives who made offerings to the Volcano God in the form of human sacrifice in order to placate a God that never existed?
We do love to throw language around. The English language has been so sodomized that words mean little. If the sharks were circling around my house, I'd love to have pirates come in to protect me.
Yeah it does get annoying. I have to restrain myself from pointing out the difference between rhetoric and objective commentary in many comments on these articles, especially any about Israel.
You can't have an objective comment on Israel because Zionisms demagogy, fascist propaganda and crimes against humanity deserve not discussion but eradication. Zionism with all it's derivatives and implications is the curse of this world and the cause of most of the planet's turmoil.
"Zionism with all it's derivatives and implications is the curse of this world and the cause of most of the planet's turmoil."
That's quite an accomplishment, considering Zionism as we know it is only a couple centuries old. Maybe the Jews really do secretly run the world after all.
Perpetual war will continue to be fed by the indignation of the leaders of the USA who project their own crimes onto whoever they want to fight.
Nietzsche
Well said.
What a bunch of apologist horseshit. To put this on CD is a disgrace.
Did they have to kill those three pirates? No they could have let them kill the Captain I guess.
Shame on anyone that would buy this two cent explanation of why these poor pirates do it.
Just shame in the end for people like this writer and his putrid reasoning.
You seem to often express a duality, that is not surprising considering that you 'hail from Texas', and duality is one factor that Texas is known for.
If find it impossible to belive that especially a Texan would not resort to Piracy for survival.
perhaps it is something in the polluted water and air there .
Well Thomas,
If there is anyone out there who should know about "horseshit" you I am sure are uniquely qualified to express it.
The real 'horseshit' in fact is your duplicity and hypocrisy.
To say that a "proud Texan" such as yourself would not resort to "piracy" to survive, is the 'horseshit'------ and you have the shovel.
It must be something in the polluted water and air there in Texas--but then again in Texas they don't call it hypocrisy or duplicity---its called "normal".
Good Luck "Tex" you may just get to run for the "presidency of the talking chimpanzee club"----a spot made just for you.
Thomas Moore;
If there is anyone out there who would be an expert on "horseshit"---and this is without the "shame" you seem to know so much about as well----it would be you.
As so often with your postings, you reveal that you most likely should visit a Psychiatrist with your apparent dual personality---on the one hand you often claim to be a progressive; then on the other you reveal your obvious ultra conservative opinion on what "others" must do to survive; that you obviously would 'starve' and 'watch your children starve before you would resort to piracy for survival.
Which either makes you a blantant liar----or 'buzzard shit in waiting'.....
The very fact that people like you actually have the vote; but vote---is the reason why your country is falling apart around your small little heads this very moment.
I'll bet you are one of those fools who believed that 'sniper story' as well.....
There is some hope however; you could aspire to be the 'poster child for the talking chimpanzee club'---------
Good Luck "Bonzo" you really need it.
Thomas you give yourself away with your own words. You often present yourself as a "progressive" "free thinker" etc--but "you blew your cover" with this posting.
To even suggest that any story should be excluded from CD is typical of the "conservative" that you so often reveal yourself to be.
Then you "shame on" those who would dare to have an open mind to "buy this two cent explanation"------------
Then you "shame on" "in the end for people like this writer and his putrid reasoning"----
But you offer no other postulation as to why these people would resort to piracy.
And I am sure that if you were in the same position as they, you would simply lay down and die----just give it up----since you are "going to heaven anyway, it matters little what happens here on Earth-----
Tell me please, in your immense level of "intelligence and wisdom"------
Where does someone like yourself find the time to share with the rest of us your wisdom, while you are out there solving all of the worlds ills?
you are so full of shit we can smell you "from around the corner"
Good luck America, with "progressives" like this clown you really need it.
Not a bunch of apologist horseshit. This news actually is not new.
www.huffingtpost.com/michael-vazquez/on-pirates_b_186015.html
My My, Mr More,
You seem not at all intrigued by the specter once again of pathetic guys in un-armored speedboats vs. The US Nuclear Navy: Iranians, Somolians, ________ villagers (fill in the blank here.)
Do you deny that the US Navy is the most powerful force on the Seas? Do you deny that if they wanted to, they could put up a "No Float Zone" and guys getting within 1000 yards of any commercial ship would be blasted? That is the policy in U.S. waters you know. You are not allowed to get closer than 1000 yards unless the waterway is smaller. Many citizen boaters have had their ships confiscated in Florida for making this innocent mistake in the Inter-Coastal Waterway (ICW) when passing an ocean liner. I have witnessed this personally. There is a vast fleet of confiscated pleasure boats in Fort Lauderdale which is auctioned off to officers of the five branches of the water patrol (they are not prohibited from low bidding on the very same boats they stole from the public.
Do you at all suspect that this "Pirate" tall tale is just another harmless boogyman that NewsCorp (Rupert Murdock) has invented to justify this supposedly "dangerous" new world we all live in (read defense budgets.)
Do you think if the merchant marine would raise the stairs or cage them, teen-age boardings would cease?
I do.
TJ
"There is nothing more dangerous to free peoples everywhere than a large standing army." - Gen. George Washington promising the Continental Congress to disband the revolutionary army at the conclusion of the war.
T.M. y
Agree 100 %
Here is my letter to the Common Dreams editor expressing my disgust and disappointment,
Dear Common Dreams,
Hello. My name is Suhail Shafi and I am a regular visitor to your superb website.
Today, I would like to write to you expressing my deepest sense of disappointment in your decision to publish the following article -
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/13-6
I am extremely saddened that you in the Independent would choose to publish an article that openly condones - implicitly or otherwise the totally unacceptable behaviour of pirates in the Indian ocean that is a menace to the global economy. This is something that goes totally against the grain of the ideology that Common Dreams represents - respect for the law among other things. As a fellow progressive, I beseech you not to undermine your journalistic ethics by condoning the actions of pirates in the Indian ocean that are undermining innocent lives and the flow of global commerce. Please understand that progressives and journalists have nothing in common, either with the pirates or the likes of their apologists exemplified by the author of this piece.
I agree with you 100 %
This Johann Hari person, with his tabloid trash style sensationalism is a disgrace to his newspaper.
I few days ago he authored a racist diatribe of an article attacking Dubai, among other things, describing its pastel coloured architecture as ``vomit coloured''. Such hateful incitement would be more appropriate on a far right hate website, or an obscene tabloid, not a left of center newspaper with supposedly high journalistic standards.
Now to add insult to insult this awful columnist is acting a PR spokeperson for a bunch of thugs in the Indian Ocean who maraud and attack ships from mostly peaceful countries, endangering the lives of innocent sailors and throttling the global economy with their piracy. And Hari, presumably from the comfort of his living room somewhere in London, endorses such crimes. It is nothing if not an indictment of the increasingly abysmal state of British journalism.
Suhail ... i agree with you about Hari's racist attitude in the past ... his unabashed attack on Islam a while back was definitely crass and under the belt ... using the pretext of liberal journalism Hari ended up sounding like just another english dick.
However i do agree with his assessment that piracy in Somali waters by Somalis has to be looked at as a cause-and-effect syndrome. Somalis have no government to speak of and taking issues like depleted fishing zones and nuclear dumping to the highly compromised U.N. is an exercise in futility. Im pretty sure if i was a Somali i could easily justify attacks on 'merchant' vessels that have managed to destroy my livelihood. its a simple as that.
Why would i care about the sanctity of gloabl trade when it doesnt help me in the least bit and has actually caused the destruction of my livelihood ?!!
Oh yes, I am aware of that. Hari is an outspoken atheist, vitriolic in his denunciation all religions, even the right to religious expression.
I think a large part of what his kind write is sensationalist and designed to attract attention and sell papers rather than actually educate about issues in a balanced and rational manner.
For instance, if he were to write about the problem of piracy and the way it menaces global shipping routes, he would sell say X number of copies. If he were to glorify or at least try to act as an apologist for these thugs responsible for the menace of piracy, he would be saying something that is not often said, which is why he would sell more. The object, from what I can tell, is not to promote a rational, balanced view of the world as much as it is to provoke and shock for the sake of selling papers. Which is why an otherwise respectable newspaper like the Independent tolerates itself to become a vehicle for his nonsense.
A few yrs ago I was in Geneva attending the EITBM - European Incentive Busines Travel and Meeting convention. At the Dubai booth, a man was translating peoples' names in gold ink ... another woman and I stood with our business cards to hand to him. If a man came up near us - the artist sneered at us and waved us away until all the men had received their gold-inked cards. Ultimately we threw ours in the trash, not being able to be sure that the man had translated our names - or written bad words.
I have no interest in or support for Dubai. It is built with slave labor, amongst other crimes against (female) humanity.
Nobody forces people to go to Dubai - its tourism and commerce industry have been doing pretty well of late until the financial crisis came along courtesy of the Bush company.
Anyway, I am intrigued you can develop such negative feelings towards a peaceful nation on the basis of such a trivial ( non ) incident. Smacks of ( ahem ) racism. The kind of racism Hari espouses by glorifying Africans only when they engage in piracy !
Umm . . . smacks of (ahem) -- sexism.
Boy I can feel the love at CD. BTW what's up with your self righteous attitude? Are you that insecure about your beloved Dubai that you have to lash out at people and call them racists? Besides your are missing the point. People have it ingrained in their mind that Dubai is somehow paved with gold and going there would solve their financial problems like magic. Just as a lot of people have the mistaken notion that America is paved with gold. Does Dubai have good qualities? I'm not saying Dubai doesn't, but I think people shouldn't have unrealistic expectations about going to Dubai or anywhere else for that matter. If they do they might be setting themselves up for a disappointment. If the expectations are realistic, then Dubai may be a good experience. To each his own. I wouldn't go to Dubai, because Dubai has nothing to offer me, but that's just me. Just as nobody is forced to go to Dubai as you say, nobody forces you to read or agree with the Johann Hari article.
Getting to the Somali pirates. I'm not justifying piracy, but there is a karmic explanation. When nuclear wastes are being dumped causing hideous diseases, and deformaties; when other people rip off Somali fishing stocks, what goes around comes around. I hope you never have to go through life with radiation poisoning, or having deformed kids, or having your skin burned off. But if you did maybe it would put things in perspective. It's just not good enough to just address the symptoms of piracy while ignoring the root causes. I think Hari makes good points whether you like it or not.
You cannot miss the overly hateful and racist overtones in this man's article on Dubai. And neither can you ignore the apologistics in his article on pirates. Nobody on this forum talked of Dubai being unrealistic or having its streets paved with gold but nobody deserves to be defamed and slandered the way they were by this ``journalist''. His article on Dubai was a character assasination against an entire city that has done him no harm......close to 100,000 of his countrymen live there. I have no respect for those who publish hatchet jobs and then justify the actions of pirates of all people.....I say this with no sense of animosity to you or any of the forumers on this site.
Thomas,
Did you remember to put your helmet on? You should by now know that any action against the "evil empire" (The United States) is always justified. (By the fringe lunatics) Also Thomas, because of our sins we have no justifiable right to rescue citizens of the United States. Yes, my good friend in Texas, many here seem to think that the United States should have allowed the Captain to be murdered on the high seas in full sight of the United States Navy whose only role would be to pick up his body.....
"What a bunch of apologist horseshit. To put this on CD is a disgrace. '
My feelings exactly Thomas. But...these people preach to their choirs...What scares me most of all is the fact they have a choir at all!!!......
Take care Thomas
OK So lets get to the heart of the issue... do you support a new invasion of Somalia?
"OK So lets get to the heart of the issue... do you support a new invasion of Somalia?"
Jim,
At this time, no. I do not support an invasion of Somalia. What I do support are any measures designed to protect the lives of the merchant crews who legally navigate these waters.
Hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks are not helpful. Putting those aside, it's a fair observation that the predecessors of the current piracy movement were trying to prevent overfishing and nuclear waste dumping. Apparently, the whole international community - well beyond the United States - failed to take those problems seriously, and so the movement tranformed into something much more greedy and dangerous. No surprise here... Without excusing the piracy, we can at least agree that poverty brings out the very worst in people. Getting Somalia back on its feet would be a much more constructive, sustainable response to the piracy problem.
"Hyperbole and ad-hominem attacks are not helpful'
I was not exaggerating but pointing out what is accepted as the central argument prevalent on this site. (The United States is evil therefore any action taken against this nation is justified....)
"Without excusing the piracy, we can at least agree that poverty brings out the very worst in people. Getting Somalia back on its feet would be a much more constructive, sustainable response to the piracy problem.
I agree...but in the meantime we must protect commercial shipping... Surely you agree that we must protect the commercial shipping lanes....
I concede that some CD readers dwell obsessively on American crimes, instead of taking a more comprehensive view. That may be a good and helpful thing, if it means they're taking responsibility for changing US policy (which is moot in my case since my citizenship is Canadian), but I can't defend this obsessiveness across the board.
I have no particular fondness for commercial shipping lanes, given the corporate trade policies, massive energy use, and climate destabilization they represent. However those are deeper issues - the rightness or wrongness of shipping activities should be evaluated case-by-case. Until the long-overdue economic overhaul occurs, and provided this isn't just an excuse to give up on Somalia, I'm prepared to tolerate a humane law-enforcement effort. It might help to deploy non-lethal tools like this: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,385048,00.html.
Peter,
Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my above remarks. Also,I agree with you regarding the need for the evaluation of international shipping activities in general.....
You are a Canadian....I was born in Montreal... Where I now call home is in the State of Georgia...
Thomas Gilbert
Thomas - cheers... I live in Kingston, Ontario.
Peter W.
I find Johann's journalism and commentary impeccable. He recently wrote a piece exposing the Disneyfied mirage persona on Dubai.
On please, his recent article on Dubai was nothing more than a racist hatchet job against a peaceful gem of a city that has made itself one of the most successful economies of the Middle East, and all Hari can do is tirade against it. Journalism at its most pathetic.
Dubai is a crass joke, riddled with Eastern European hookers, and run by a bunch of greedy freaks with hypocrisy running in their veins.
The only freaks with hypocricy running in their veins I see here are the `` journalists'' who condone the violent antics of African pirates while vilifying a peaceful city for its stunning economic success.
Hey hey hey: Dubai is nothing but a polished shithole--much worse than Disney's worst nightmare.
It's constant gridlock, obscenely expensive, no one there should have a driving license, there is NO culture, and now that the world economy is on the skids folks are leaving in droves.
Despite the general lack of geographical knowledge rampant on this site, some of us do spend a fair amount of time in the Gulf--and do know the truth.
Well at least we agree Dubai is polished, which is at least more than what can be said of the rhetoric of some of its detractors - read Hari's diatribe against the place if you do not believe me.
Yeah a drug warrior's paradise wet dream allright. People have been jailed just for bringing melatonin, or having a spec of hash on their shoe, or sesame seeds while they go through customs. Might I add that Dubai treats having traces of street drugs in your urine or blood as grounds to criminally prosecute drug possession. Keep your "peaceful gem" and as you call it along with your self righteous holier-than-thou attitude, because I want no part of it, ok?
Would you rather be associated with peaceful Dubai or a bunch of marauding pirates. Nobody forces you to read my posts.
"Would you rather be associated with peaceful Dubai or a bunch of marauding pirates"
Neither, thank you.
Double post due to glitch. Sorry.
I think the authors point is that BEFORE they became pirates, when they were just fishermen banded together to protect their fishing stocks from overfishing and pollution, no one gave a d*mn about their plight. They could, of course, have continued following the law and died of starvation if the radiation didn't kill them first.
I know what I would have done... (and what the punishment for doing it would eventually be). Better to die on your feet. Of course, it became extraordinarily lucrative and so, being good capitalists...
Once again we see that Madoff and the Somali pirates are the amateurs, step back and watch a Wall Street bankster pro teach ya something about piracy...
"Once again we see that Madoff and the Somali pirates are the amateurs, step back and watch a Wall Street bankster pro teach ya something about piracy..."
...the BEST concise one sentence comment on this page.
I have to chime in to say I'm skeptical too. This is turning into a nice alternative narrative. We need to save Somalia--let the conservatives have their guns and naval actions; let the progressives donate green computers and install solar power. Either way one stupid story 9/11ed all over the place gets us agreeing. In the words of Livingstone, "Christianity, Commerce, Civilisation!"
The Third World will become market saturated.
So which source of news would you prefer? Fox news? CNN? MSNBC? You have a hard time swallowing the truth I see...
"So which source of news would you prefer?"
The above item is an *opinion* piece.
Commentary regarding Gitmo may be opinion pieces but is based on facts on the ground.
The reality of events discussed in the article are not disputed--however you may claim that the authors defense of defenseless, powerless abused and exploited & starving people is an opinion that you disagree with.
What does that say about you?
Vern, you are losing your focus. There is *no* mention of Gitmo in the article.
"The reality of events discussed in the article are not disputed"
I have not disputed any facts stated as such in the article, but I notice that there was no evidence presented to support toxic waste dumping oiff the Somalia coast, can you suggest the very best evidence that that is true?
"however you may claim that the authors defense of defenseless, powerless abused and exploited & starving people is an opinion that you disagree with.
What does that say about you?"
Vern, the problem is that I never did as you stated above, that is disagree with anything the author said at all. What does that say about you, that you seem to claim I did? Vern, you are new at this, let me try and help you: Google "straw man".
So are most of the MSM news. They are no longer objective as news should be. This "opinion" has more facts than all of the MSM combined!
"So are most of the MSM news."
Nonsense, there exists "straight" reporting of news in the MSM.
"They are no longer objective as news should be."
That's besides the point, there is *always* bias in straight reporting.
"This "opinion" has more facts than all of the MSM combined!"
What would be your best example from the above piece?
"Nonsense, there exists "straight" reporting of news in the MSM."
that is news to me? Which one???
Johann Hari has been proven right most of the time. Unless you just watch the MSM.
"Which one???"
Example, I just heard on Fox News that sportscaster Harry Kalas has died. That's straight reporting. You aren't being stupid on purpose are you?
But did they report that any number of other people had also died that day? Who they report about and in what way and why always colors the news. The mindset and the intent are embedded and thus deliver the fortification of the belief systems that organize most peoples' lives.
"Who they report about and in what way and why always colors the news."
I agree. I earlier stated that there is always bias in even "straight news" reporting.
That's straight reporting on an issue of nil importance for a site such as this.
So Fox News will report an easily-verified fact of almost no importance, and that's your test for reliability and truth about world-shaking events?
"So Fox News will report an easily-verified fact of almost no importance, and that's your test for reliability and truth about world-shaking events?"
I will help you regain your focus: The claim was made that there is no_longer_any_straight_reporting. I disproved that by providing a single example. That I heard of the death of Harry Kalas from a FoxNews report matters little since all the news outlets carried it as well. I have already stated that I rely on a number of sources for news.
And you obviously are being deliberately obtuse I see. But I see that you choose to watch FAUX news. Shows where your ignorance comes form.
At issue is whether there exists straight reporting of news or not. I gave you an example.
"But I see that you choose to watch FAUX news. Shows where your ignorance comes form."
Does it give you a boner when you type out "F A U X"? This is a very poor argument. Fox News, for all of your legitimate complaints about it, has reported today that Harry Kalas has died. You should be able to verify that on any news source that you choose. It's a straight news item, and I offered it as an example. You claimed no one reports straight news anymore, and you are simply wrong about that. *shrug*.
You must be very thick up there as you constantly miss the point.
The only point I have with you is your apparent denial that straight news reporting exists. *shrug*
No pirates in Texas, huh?
Yes GITMO and Bagram and shipping people to tortures in prisons in Egypt and Syria is the "civilized" way .
Then blow the crap out of them with Gunships and air strikes. That is the way of CIVILIZED nations is not not Mr More?
So... the violent and illegal actions of the US government somehow justify the violent and illegal actions of these pirates? By that logic, no act of violence could ever be condemned while somewhere, someone is also acting violently.
That's a stretch and it's a straw-man to accuse the original poster of supporting those actions because he thinks that the pirates were guilty of violent and illegal actions.
You're missing an important part. The "Pirates" (according to the article) are trying to DEFEND their seas. So yes, violence is usually accepted when it's in defense of your own country. Shouldn't be, but all human history says it is. The fact that we may be the offenders doesn't change that.
"The "Pirates" (according to the article) are trying to DEFEND their seas."
This seems contrary to the history of Somalian pirates taking hostages and holding them for *ransom*. That is hardly "defence". He also doesn't make a case that illeagal taking of fish or dumping has taken place, rather he assumes it to be true based on hearsay.
He also says:
"Everyone agrees they were ordinary Somalian fishermen who at first took speedboats to try to dissuade the dumpers and trawlers, or at least wage a 'tax' on them. They call themselves the Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia -"
Well I am sorry but I don't see the universal agreement and it isn't true just because he says so. Google the term "Volunteer Coastguard of Somalia" and you get back to this article. So his case that this is defence is weak on a number of points.
"So yes, violence is usually accepted when it's in defense of your own country."
And directed specifically against civilian seamen?
Well, Somalia lacks the capability to operate warships to defend its territory...and Somali citizens obviously can't do that either. I suppose holding ships for ransom is the only way they can deter illegal activity in their coastal territory. Would it be better for them to simply execute the crews of each ship they capture and steal all the goods aboard and press the ships into service for them? It could be far worse.
"I suppose holding ships for ransom is the only way they can deter illegal activity in their coastal territory."
I would deny that holding ships for ransom is a deterent to alleged illegal activity in any case, or that holding ships for ransom stems from any desire to deter illegal activity. They just want the money.
Well I don't think you would know that unless you were involved in that illegal dumping. As for the last part of my comment, apparently the Somali pirates have vowed to kill any American or French crews they come across, so I guess it's not just about money now.
zmann, thanks for your comments. The Somali pirates have vowed to kill any American or French crews they come across after some of their own got killed after commandeering a ship containing humanitarian aid for Kenya. I can see where they may indeed be effective in defending Kenya from getting humanitarian aid.
Haha nice way of looking at it. Their revenge against French crews probably stems from a recent French rescue of a commandeered ship in the Mediterranean where a few pirates and one hostage were killed...I don't know what kind of ship it was though. Maybe a family yacht, I think the dead hostage was a kid.
"GITMO and Bagram and shipping people to tortures in prisons in Egypt and Syria is the "civilized" way ."
Irrelevant. IOW you are changing the subject. Why?
Why is it irrelevant?
Because all events are viewed in a void?
"Why is it irrelevant?"
Because there is no direct or indirect connection to the "piracy" incident. If I am wrong, please *demonstrate* a connection.
"Because all events are viewed in a void?"
Of course not, but you don't arbitrarily try to connect unrelated events as a substitute for a good argument.
The point was our own barbarism not even based on legitimate grievances passes without comment while all this indignant outrage about the perceived barbarism of others who actually have legitimate grievances--and you are unable--or is simply unwilling to see any relevance?
Hopeless.