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Obama Will Need All of His 'Out-of-The-Box' Thinking to Tackle Israel
Never mind the global economic downturn: the Holy Land will be the real test of whether Barack Obama can actually walk on water.
The omens do not look good for the Middle East peace process. Benjamin Netanyahu, the man most likely to lead an Israeli coalition government, is joined at the hip with the American neo-conservatives. An Obama adviser recognised that the election result posed a "challenge" for the president.
The question is how much pressure Mr Obama will be prepared to put on the next Israeli government to achieve his stated goal of a Jewish state and Palestinian state living side by side. His special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke, has said he had "never seen anything like the mess we have inherited". If applied to Middle East, that is an understatement. The Bush administration shared the Israeli government's view that the (Arab) moderates should be bolstered and the extremists shunned, a policy that encouraged the civil war between Fatah and Hamas which culminated in the ousting of the Fatah faction from Gaza.
Israel's most recent onslaught on Gaza failed to stop the rockets targeting Israeli civilians, the Palestinian factions are at each others' throats, Israeli illegal settlement building continues and obstructions across the West Bank still constrain attempts to forge a Palestinian economy.
Mr Obama's Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, nevertheless appears undaunted and is preparing for a second trip to the region. Mr Obama took the region by surprise by appointing him at the outset of his presidency, and identified the conflict as a diplomatic priority.
But what kind of peace negotiations does he envisage? Would talks be continued between Palestinians and Israelis, or would it be a broader peace involving Syria and Lebanon, and possibly Iran? On his first trip to the region, Mr Mitchell stuck to diplomatic convention.
But Mr Obama has shown that he is capable of "out-of-the-box" thinking. A senior Arab diplomat said hopes are running high in the Middle East that Mr Obama will succeed. But the same diplomat predicted Mr Mitchell would throw in the towel after six months in the job.
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55 Comments so far
Show AllSo far Obama has shown the conventional two step shuffle on Israel. Praise and laud Israel and sneak in a word related to Palestinian suffering in such a manner that no Israel firster will become offended. Which is just politics, as we know.
But since Obama appears to be both sane and intelligent he surely knows that the Israel First agenda, Eretz Israel, will only lead to more of the same and catastrophe, even if pointing this out in the United States is not politically viable.
Can he build the groundwork and change of atmosphere here in the United States which would allow the basic realities to rise to the surface? Can he create an environment in which acknowledging Palestinian rights won’t be seen as anti Semitic? If he can do that, then he can apply pressure on Netanyahu without losing support here in the US. If not, how then can he bring about change without somehow recognizing the rights of the Palestinians?
I have come to the conclusion there is nothing Obama or any other American President can do to change Israel's position. Either all involved preclude their sworn object of the destruction of Israel or there will be no change.
And Isreal will do whatever she feels is in her best interest no matter what we say or do. Or withdraw support or not.
We give the Israelis 10 million dollars every day. That, along with the weapons we supply, can be used by a courageous President to ameliorate the more pernicious policies.
"That, along with the weapons we supply, can be used by a courageous President to ameliorate the more pernicious policies."
True, its possible, but so far President Obama is not exibiting courage. We are about to find out about him.
I'm certainly for curtailing that and restricting it to food and/or consumer products. I don't see any reason to continue weapons supplies. But I doubt this bunch will stop it either.
I simply don't believe it would have any real effect on their actions or policies. Thats just my conclusion. My opinion is that if the rockets keep coming, they will more than likely attack again.
History isn't on the side of a settlement. Unless we can get together with Iran....different story.
The rockets offer the perfect propaganda cover. Not only is it criminal to kill perfect strangers but it is bad policy, offering the Israelis the justification for increased violence. The Palestinians can not establish a state by themselves, and should be more aware of world opinion, and of how the Israelis play upon it, often winning the propaganda war in Europe and the United States. Someone told me there more Arabs than Jews in the United States. If true, no one would know it considering the influence the lobby has.
As TruthKnoller above poignantly says, no one here in the US mainstream could care less about 300 to 400 dead children. Had this happened in Israel they would have been provided with the perfect excuse to nuke the Palestinians.
Quinty
"As TruthKnoller above poignantly says, no one here in the US mainstream could care less about 300 to 400 dead children."
I don't blieve thats true, I certainly hope its not true. Your next paragraph explains it I believe.
"The Palestinians can not establish a state by themselves, and should be more aware of world opinion, and of how the Israelis play upon it, often winning the propaganda war in Europe and the United States."
The Israeli are winning the propaganda war. Most people I have asked about this think the same as I did last year, that Hamas is the same as the Palestinian people and they are the ones attacking. I doubt one in a hundred thousand know its controlled by Iran.
You are absolutely correct about the Palestinians, if they were smart there wouldn't be one more rocket or one more suicide bomber. Then what would the Israeli say? Who wins then? The Palestinians would. Wouldn't you guys agree that the propaganda war would be the Palestinians then?
"You are absolutely correct about the Palestinians, if they were smart there wouldn't be one more rocket or one more suicide bomber. Then what would the Israeli say? Who wins then? The Palestinians would."
Actually, it would be like the ongoing situation in the West Bank, where the IDF continues to bulldoze houses and kill Palestinians at will, despite the lack of suicide bombers and home-made rockets. In the history of Israel, there has never been a pause in Israel's relentless theft of Palestinian land and water, and Israel's human rights abuses against the Palestinians.
Israel likes to claim that it is threatened by enemies who want to destroy it. What about Israel's own intent to destroy the Palestinians? When will Israel be forced to admit Palestine's right to exist?
"We should try to spirit the penniless Arab population across the borders by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly.' (Herzl, founding father of Zionism,1895)
The mind of Israel’s “decider” in yesterday’s election, Avigdor Lieberman, Head of the Yisrael Beiteinu Party, comes out of the late 19th century, a veritable verbal parallel to Herzl: “They (Palestinian leaders) have to disappear, to go to paradise, all of them, and there can’t be any compromise.” This is the same man that casually remarked that Israel should do to the Palestinians what the United States did to the Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, drop the atomic bomb on them. This man will decide who speaks with President Obama about “peace in the mid-east.” This man will control the right-wing agenda that will be Israel’s agenda under its newly formed government, whether Tzipi Livni or Bibi Netanyahu hold the title of Prime Minister. This man will see to it that there is no end of the occupation of Palestine, no Palestinian state, and no evacuation of the settlements, in short, no progress toward peace. This man, a Russian immigrant to Israel, will determine the fate of the indigenous people if and when Israel decides what to do with the Palestinians. This man, who won 12% of the vote, determines for Americans what their vote for Obama’s “change” really means." http://www.palestinechronicle.com/view_article_details.php?id=14821
Ben Linder, Rachel Corrie: presente!
"Actually, it would be like the ongoing situation in the West Bank"
Thats very true, it could be.
"Israel likes to claim that it is threatened by enemies who want to destroy it. What about Israel's own intent to destroy the Palestinians? When will Israel be forced to admit Palestine's right to exist?"
I'd say the difference is I have heard no statement by the Israeli that their stated goal was the destruction of the Palestinian people, Gaza or the West Bank.
"Avigdor Lieberman"
I'm not famaliar with this guy, as I said I don't have any in depth knowledge in this area. I'm sure of one thing, if he even suggseted dropping a nuculear bomb on anyone he's nuts. Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended a war.......no one in their right mind would even suggest that now.
If the US and Iran could work out a solution I don't think there would be any trouble with the Israeli. I don't think they'd have a choice.
Withdraw to pre 67 borders with a guarantee of security and recognition of their right to exist and I don't see how they could refuse without losing the most important weapon they have. World opinion.
Sorry but I have to disagree with your analysis. The most important weapon they have is the "Samson Option" as described by Seymour Hersh and others. We do what they want or else.
This might go a long way toward explaining some of the more servile posturing of US lawmakers. Perhaps they have received the word that they had better keep the money and arms flowing.
After all, how many other governments would continue to get millions of US $ a day from us after their operatives were convicted of spying against us?
When basic reasoning fails to explain then one has to fall back on whatever else is out there that does explain. That doesn't make it true, it's speculation on my part, but at least it makes sense.
Your chance of being right is just as good as mine.
I would say we continue to support Israel because they are the one sure foothold we have in the region, in our best interest, etc.......Geopolitics makes strange demands....and they don't always make sense.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I think the suicide bombers and rockets allow the Israelis to direct the focus on what is going on there. There is very little news about the settlers or the settlement movement in the United States. In fact, the abuses the Palestinians live with receive little notice at all.
First, suicide bombings and directing rockets at civilians is a criminal act. Those persons firing these rockets in fact may even be killing innocent victims who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. They are killing children, too. There is no justification for these blind attacks on total strangers.
Second, so long as the Israelis can complain about the rockets they have the cover to pretty much do whatever they like. Without that focus the world would eventually be forced into facing what is being done to the Palestinians. The rockets merely give the Israelis the cover to brand them all as "terrorists," justifying their own violence.
Quinty
I have to agree with you.
On another point......
"First, suicide bombings and directing rockets at civilians is a criminal act. Those persons firing these rockets in fact may even be killing innocent victims who are sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. They are killing children, too. There is no justification for these blind attacks on total strangers."
As a matter of fact, I wonder if all these rockets are fired by Palestinians at all, or even Hamas.
I don't remember much outrage here in the United States when these figures came out. The percentage of Americans which doesn't unconditionally support Israel has increased. I believe it's around %40. But there is still a powerful gag on criticism. Look at our Congress falling over itself to officially support Israel's attack on Gaza. There was no similar resolution of sympathy for the Palestinian dead.
No, when it comes to Palestinian children they simply don't count quite as much as Jewish children in out country. The fact that the death toll was about 14 to 1 is glossed over with "Israel was only defending itself." "How many rockets would you accept before attacking.... " etc.
On human terms there is always sympathy for dead children. But when it comes to Palestinian children in the Arab/Israel dispute the same basic standards don’t seem to apply.
Had these been Jewish children the outrage would have been deafening.
Quinty February 12th, 2009 4:33 pm
I simply can't say you are wrong. I can say I hope you are.
The only other consideration is that since Hamas is a terroist organization, people are misinformed and think that the Paslestinian people are terroists or have control of Hamas. Which brings us right to your point of coverage...or rather lack thereof.
Believe me, when you have seen a child killed in fighting, it makes no difference what their nationality is.
But when you only hear about the death of children on TV, does it have the same impact? When it becomes a cold statistic which is rationally justified as "collateral damage" or the inevitable, unfortunate results of war? As if civilian casualties can somehow be justified as an outcome in any war, we are "wisely" told. And therefore somehow acceptable. That "wisdom," by the way, is pretty primitive. For numerous civilian casualties, of course, are actually an excellent reason for avoiding war.
We are accustomed, I think, in this country to not taking Arab lives too seriously. Look at our Iraq wars. And a blind faith support for Israel can justify many things. Indeed, the death of the Palestinian children has been blamed on the Palestinians, or on Hamas for “hiding” behind “civilians.”
In a world gutted with horror it becomes easy to justify certain things.
Have a good day......
Quinty
"But when you only hear about the death of children on TV, does it have the same impact?'
No it doesn't. It can't.
"When it becomes a cold statistic which is rationally justified as "collateral damage" or the inevitable, unfortunate results of war? As if civilian casualties can somehow be justified as an outcome in any war, we are "wisely" told. And therefore somehow acceptable."
Its neither justified or acceptable, but it is a fact of war.
"For numerous civilian casualties, of course, are actually an excellent reason for avoiding war."
One casaulty, civilian or military is more than enough reason to avoid war. No one should have to deal with its horrors.
"In a world gutted with horror it becomes easy to justify certain things."
It does.
And a good day to you.
Quinty wrote:
"Someone told me there more Arabs than Jews in the United States. If true, no one would know it considering the influence the lobby has."
According to the 2000 Census, persons of Arab descent were about 0.42% of the US population. From other sources, Jews constitute about 2.2%.
Depending on the source, people of Lebanese descent constitute about a quarter to a third of Americans of Arab descent. This is significant because the majority of these are of Marionite Christian background and culturally different from most other Arab Americans.
American Muslims make up a group of approximately the same size as Jewish Americans. One might be tempted to assume they would constitute a political counterweight to Jewish political influence, but (as a general statement) they do not.
The influence of American Jews on our policy in the Israel-Palestine conflict has been the subject of intense debate, some of it vicious. (I was going to say, "on both sides," but I think that is inaccurate. Critics of Israel's policies are subject to fierce attacks and frequently being charged with "anti-semitism" if they are non-Jewish, or of having "internalized anti-semitism" and becoming "self-loathing Jews."
CUTTING IT SHORT: The Jewish community is politically much more cohesive than either the Arab community or the Muslim community. Most Jewish campaign contributions and votes go overwhelmingly to Democratic candidates. And on most issues, Jews as a group are much more liberal than non-Jewish voters. They therefore feel at home in the Democratic Party. Arabs and Muslims, in general, are more conservative than the average non-Arab, non-Muslim voter and therefore are not aligned with Democrats on most issues. At the same time, the sometimes openly racist anti-Arab rhetoric and policies associated with the GOP, makes Arab American feel unwelcome there as well. While socially conservative Muslims might agree with the social views of Republican Christians, the Christian Right is openly hostile to Islam in a way they are not (openly) hostile to Judaism. And the Christian Right is also the second pillar of hardline support for Israel in the US.
So Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have no comfortable home for their politics and are unable to forge the longterm relationships capable of establishing influence over either party. The hope for an Arab (or Muslim) counterweight to Zionist influence in American politics is an unrealistic hope. Ain't gonna happen.
Shliapnikov
Interesting analysis. Thanks.
Perhaps because the leverage is misplaced. Cut off the funding of 400 million per month allowance Israel currently receives courtesy of the US taxpayers, and watch how quickly they are to restore the gravy train by making meaningful concessions for peace. Given AIPAC owns the Democratic Party and Obama, what incentives do they currently have to alter the status quo?
You guys may be right, but I just don't read it that way. Israel can't negotiate antything unless they are assured that everyone involved pledges to stop calling for their death as a nation.
But I'm a latecomer to this topic, just the last year or so....I don't claim real knowledge except historical (and that wasn't a major area of study for me), so I again say, thats just the way I read it.
Thomas More wrote:
"Israel can't negotiate anything unless they are assured that everyone involved pledges to stop calling for their death as a nation."
Enemies negotiate things all the time. That's how wars are ended.
I'd also suggest the framing of this within the US is somewhat askew. Are the Israelis committed to a viable state for the Palestinians? I recognize the US goernment has been able to convince the Israelis to change some of their rhetoric to include "support" for a "two-state solution," but I have seen nothing to convince me they are committed to it.
And the elevation of Binyamin Netanyahu to prime minister may render this moot anyways. He, at least, is honest about his contempt for Palestinian claims to a homeland.
I do not believe the Republic of South Africa had a right to exist as an apartheid state. I am unsure whether Israel "has a right" to exist as "a Jewish state." But as a practical matter, Israel was established, has held on for decades, has raised two generations of people born in "Israel,' and has the force of arms (and backing of the single superpower) to ensure its survival. I think those Palestinians who are willing to negotiate with Israel for a two-state solution are probably doing the best that is possible. There were people within the leadership of Hamas who were willing to discuss a two-state solution IF Israel would agree to the pre-67 borders. Israel, of course, refuses.
Hardliners within Israel, and from the election results, I agree that includes about 80% of the Knesset, would prefer the Palestinian leadership be viewed by Europeans and the US as "unreasonable." The last thing they want are "reasonable people" in leadership. They have played off Hamas against Fatah and back again. The US, Israel has worked with Jordanian and Egyptian intelligence to control Fatah and turn it into a puppet. In this, they were aided by the corruption of Fatah's leadership, I am sad to say. Many Palestinians came to support Hamas not as religious fundamentalists, but as competent and honest organizers. It is Israel's preference that Palestine remain a "failed state" even prior to its establishment.
I think the US has a different interest. At least I do.
Shliapnikov
"Are the Israelis committed to a viable state for the Palestinians?"
I believe the Israeli are committed to a viable state of Israel.
"Many Palestinians came to support Hamas not as religious fundamentalists, but as competent and honest organizers"
I believe the Palestinians elected Hamas because as I remember it, Hamas was providing a framework of neighborhood governments, medical care and food to supplement the world contributions. They saw them everyday helping them.
If Binyamin Netanyahu gets in a lot will be moot. He would not have withdrawn their troops I believe.
I think we would be just as happy if they both took the two state solution and raised dates. They won't get a lot of attention from us for a while I think.
Israel is more secure now than it's ever been!
This idea that Arab countries have to rhetorically pledge to be non-aggressive is ludicrous.
... As compared to ther Middle East countries, Israel has an *overwhelming* predominance of weapons. Funded each year by the United States to the tune of several *billion* dollars.
... Israel has nuclear weapons. And has expressed, in no uncertain terms, their willigness to use them.
... Israel has a long and despicable record of state-sponsored terrorism. Gaza, Jenin, the slaughter in Lebanon.
... Israel is a sovereign nation, the Palestinians *don't have* a nation.
... Israel has the most aggressive, most belligerent, most warlike nation in the world on their side, the United States.
... They have politicians like Hillary ("I'll-annihilate-Iran-if-they-make-a-false- move") Clinton on bended knee to AIPAC.
... Every country in the General Assembly -- except Israel and the United States -- has voted in favor of UN resolution 242 -- Israel trading land for peace. That is to say, Israel giving up the land they stole from the Arabs in 1967 ... for peace.
... Fact: The Palestinians now occupy 10% of the land they occupied in 1947. So, tell me, where did all that land go? Did it just disappear? Gee, I guess someone took it over. Who could that someone have been? (Hint: You'll get no clues from the Western media.)
So, please, let's understand who's the bully in the Middle East and who's being oppressed.
"This idea that Arab countries have to rhetorically pledge to be non-aggressive is ludicrous."
The Palestinians aren't Arabs and Hamas is their government, I believe Hamas is sworn to destroy Israel.
"Israel has a long and despicable record of state-sponsored terrorism"
And Hamas, Iran, Syria, Hezbolla, Saudi Arabia don't?
"... Israel has the most aggressive, most belligerent, most warlike nation in the world on their side, the United States."
Horsefeathers
"... Israel is a sovereign nation, the Palestinians *don't have* a nation."
True, but they should have.
So, please, let's understand who's the bully in the Middle East and who's being oppressed.
Can't disagree with your sentiments here, but lets not get carried away that its all angels on one side. Thats never been true.
....................................................................................
MiMiCcS February 13th, 2009 2:24 am....Put Conservation Before Efficiency
In case you didn't return there I wanted to congratulate you on a fantastic posting on this string. Just excellent.
Thanks
Obama has not demonstrated "out of the box thinking" on ANY issue.
Why would Obama demonstrate "out of the box thinking" on this issue?
We have seen how far "out of the box" thinkers get in US politics. They don't get any corporate money and they fade into oblivion.
Obama is even more into the two step. Watch the ratcheting of propaganda about Iran's nuclear weapons as if our policy to Iran is run by Israel. We(or Israelis) WILL attack - it is just a question of when and with which weapons - possibly nuclear.
But I could be wrong !
When will Americans stop being hypocrites? That might help.
- from the AUMF that allowed Bush to invade Iraq -
(a) AUTHORIZATION.—The President is authorized to use the
Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary
and appropriate in order to—
...
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.
So when will America enforce UN Security Council resolutions regarding Israel?
Oh, that's right. We spout out about law and justice but that doesn't apply to our 'friends' when they want to disregard international law.
"(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.
So when will America enforce UN Security Council resolutions regarding Israel?
Oh, that's right. We spout out about law and justice but that doesn't apply to our 'friends' when they want to disregard international law."
Why just us? What about all the "spouting" going on by the rest of the world? Why aren't they doing it? Why aren't those shouting the loudest sending their troops?
Shouldn't we stop involving our armed forces overseas?
" A senior Arab diplomat said hopes are running high in the Middle East that Mr Obama will succeed."
The Arabs hope for peace; I'm left wondering if the Israelis share that hope. By electing right-wingers who espouse more settlements and oaths of fealty to the state, Israelis seem to have given up on peace. They will never have peace behind walls that are built on stolen land.
Bring America Back !!!! When you are already inside the glass box, how could you start thinking outside the box ??? The new Prez gives every indication that little sister Zion, and AIPAC, will still call all the shots==literally==of what constitutes US Mideast policy !
Hillary has been cuddling up to AIPAC for about 15 years, so with an anchor like her around your neck as Sec/State, how you gonna get out of the box when you've already seen the Big $$$$$ in campaign funds from the most feared Zionist, Neocon, radical right wing Israeli lobby ?????
Now that we know Israel magically left Gaza on the US Inauguration Day of Jan 20, 2009, does it occur that little sister plays right into the poker game of US politics and celebration. ?? If it does not occur to you then WAKE UP !
That little purge of Gaza massacred 300 to 400 innocent children, among the 1300 total dead Palestinians. Nary a whisper about this from official Washington. In the US Govt, thinking is not what is done regarding the Mid
East===FEAR of little sister is done, but no thinking and no feeling !!!!
"Outside the Box", indeed. Not a chance !!!
Its not 1300 dead its 330 odd dead. Its 5,450 injured (many limbs lost). And gaza now is in a daze of horror, stunned and alone. We must not wait till Mitchel of braire or Obama move. Israel is Zionism and Zionism is a colonial venture. It is entirley crimnal, illegal and racist. That's what USA foreign policy has become abroad. It has supported and promoted this disgusting entity, allied her own Evangelical nutcases and indoctrinated masses to its cause and has endangered the whole world in the process. The gullible bewitched and bewildered may follow this perverted ideology but make no mistake about this. Zionism from its birth and throughout its existance has now shed its mask somewhat through its arrogance. It is deceit, lies, mythology, falsehoods and criminal. It has nothing whatsoever to commend it. Though it has, particularly in recent times succeeded in indocrtrinating the citizens of Israel to submission it is in essence evil. Evil stalks The Holy Land. And the creeping genocidal policies are in train over the past 100 years against ethnically cleansed and traumatised natives of Palestine. Israel is a rogue, pariah State and its destructive policies aim to create hatred and enemies abroad for the purposes of expansion. It is strange how it has infiltrated so many democratic institutions and directs the USA in foreign policy among other institutions. Are the citizens of th4e United States really so blind and so shameless that they have permitted this corruption in their Governments?
During Israel's recent slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, I saw many interviews with Israeli spokespeople on English Al Jazeera (the free download to watch it and other leading international tv stations is at http://www.livestation.com/). Every single one of the official Israeli spokespeople followed this pattern: first they claimed Israel was acting in "self defense," and then they pointed at Iran.
We need to wake up--the Israeli tail wags the U.S. dog, and Israel is determined to attack Iran. Of course, we'll be picking up the tab. While our neighbors are losing their jobs and homes, our tax dollars finance Israel's bloody crimes against humanity to the tune of at least $15 million a DAY! http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israel.html Our economy is in the tank and yet we continue to finance Israel, a country which is richer than Spain and Ireland, has single-payer health care, which we can only dream of, and wastes our money on their illegal occupation of Palestine, ongoing theft of Palestinian land and water, and horrific war crimes.
Can Obama think outside the Zionist box, given that he has surrounded himself with neocon and Zionist advisors? Does he even have internet access now? Why does he seem so clueless? http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/12-0
Ben Linder, Rachel Corrie: presente!
Obama stands with Israel, I agree with President Obama on that one. You guys need to get in line. Remember, President Obama said we all have to get along and listen to him. You guys elected him!
I like Obama (to the dismay of some CD posters), but I part company with him on Israel.
Many of the Presidents would like to somehow relate themselves to Lincoln in some way - at the very least, they'll quote him and compare their predicament to his - and I'm pretty sure Obama is no exception, going by all the symbolism invoked to date. Lincoln, it turns out, was a slow convert to the abolition of slavery. His original 'Emancipation Proclamation' applied only to those Confederate States that did not return to the Union by January 1, 1863. In effect, it was like confiscating the 'property' of someone who broke the law, while leaving the 'property' of others untouched. With the Civil War taking such an enormous toll, he had to slowly come around to complete abolition, so as to impart some meaning to all this loss of life, as well as to weaken the South, all the while fearing for revolt even among the Union soldiers. Finally he did it - and the Union was saved. Obama's predicament is somewhat similar - in the absence of any pressure from the people or the Congress, there is very little he can do to change course on Middle East policy in any fundamental manner, much as he may see the need to do so. I just hope he goes through with his 'out-of-the-box' thinking and finds the courage to act - in fact, all he has to do is to cut certain funding, and remove the diplomatic cover at the UN - he doesn't even have to wage war like Lincoln had to. Unlike Lincoln, I hope he lives to a ripe old age to see the fruits of his decisions.
Highintel: Can we do better?
Thomas,
For more info about the conflict read "Palestine-Peace not Apartheid" by Jimmy Carter. In this book you will learn a lot about the historical context of this issue.
On the other hand, although I don't agree with Palestinians shooting rockets, I would not go as far and qualify them as "not smart". I believe if you and I were in their shoes, it would be very easy to justify the violence.
Again, I completely disagree with their methods, but after all they are being ethnically cleansed from the area since 1948.
If your culture were being destroyed so blatantly wouldn't you fight back?
ladybug
"If your culture were being destroyed so blatantly wouldn't you fight back?"
With sand in a sock if I had nothing else. I don't blame anyone for fighting for their home.
"On the other hand, although I don't agree with Palestinians shooting rockets, I would not go as far and qualify them as "not smart"."
I meant it tactically. I was trained to think in tactics when confronting this type of problem. I was saying not shooting those rockets would be a far superior weapon to firing them off. They are killing a few and terrorizing many, but without them......what are the Israeli going to say?
No rockets, no suicide bombers....they win the propaganda war and put the Israeli in a hole when dealing with them. Give them no choice but to come to the table or else.
"Palestine-Peace not Apartheid".....Amazoned...thanks!
If President Obama is serious about resolving the Israel-Palestinian conflict all he has to do is force the settler-state's new government into a ceasefire with Hamas, after which, they sit down with Palestinian leaders for the purpose of figuring things out based on one equals one with liberty and justice for all. Which is doable but to pull it off he'll have to prevail over the Pentagon-Neocon axis of traitors who know that without Israel's savagery of Palestinians and Lebanese (with the resultant blowback that invariably follows), there'd be no rationale for their so-called War on Terror. And without this war, how would these traitors scare us into giving up our children in a blood for oil war, not to mention our allowing said traitors to tear up the Constitution? Will President Obama prevail over the Penatagon-Neocon traitors? It's up to us to see that he does.
Cameiros
This discussion is so old.
Its obvious to anyone who sees with the slightest clarity that the people of Israel want it their way or no way at all. Very biblical.
This conflict will be resolved militarily.
Peace will only be realized with the destruction of Israel.
“Obama will need all of his out of the box thinking ..."
Are you serious?
When in the world did Barack Obama think or, more to the point, when did Barack Obama *act* outside of the box???
Quoting from the following August 27, 2008 article entitled, "The Nation (Magazine) and the Obama Campaign" --
"The record shows that within days of securing the nomination, the Obama campaign began its march to the right.
"Obama’s first major move was the appointment of Jason Furman, a Wall Street insider known for his pro-market views, as economic policy director.
"This was followed by his denunciation of the Supreme Court decision outlawing the execution of people convicted of child rape, and his nod to the pro-gun lobby regarding the court’s decision to strike down Washington, DC’s gun control law.
"In late June and July he embarked on a 'Patriotism Tour' to identify his campaign with US militarism, while continuing to back away from his primary campaign pledge to withdraw US combat forces from Iraq based on a definite timetable.
"This was followed by a pledge to substantially expand the Bush administration’s program providing federal funding to so-called 'faith-based' service organizations.
"On July 10, Obama voted in the Senate to expand warrantless wiretapping and provide immunity to telecommunications companies that facilitated the White House’s illegal domestic spying operation.
"During his tour of Iraq, Afghanistan and Europe, Obama made clear that his call for withdrawal of combat troops from Iraq was linked to his proposal to dispatch as many as 10,000 troops to Afghanistan to escalate the war and even expand it into Pakistan. At the same time, he praised the results of Bush’s 'surge' and made clear that he would leave sufficient US troops in Iraq to maintain a long-term occupation of the country.
"Most recently, Obama joined with Bush and Republican presidential candidate John McCain in threatening Russia and calling for retribution for its intervention against the US client regime in Georgia. He has supported Bush’s military provocations, including the establishment of a permanent US military presence in Poland.
"Finally ... Obama chose Joseph Biden, a long-time fixture in the US Senate and early supporter of the Iraq war, as his running mate."
Add to this
.. Barack Obama’s military-industrial-complex-loving desire to raise the Pentagon budget -- now already at $584 billion per year.
... Barack Obama’s expressed desire -- in fact, his virtual *assurance* -- that he will propose dramatically cutting Medicare and Social Security benefits.
... Barack Obama’s long-standing opposition to single-payer healthcare. Albeit single-payer healthcare exists in virtually every other advanced industrial country in the world.
... Barack Obama’s Empire-loving, corporate-beholden, anything-but-progressive voting record as a Senator.
... Barack Obama's appointment to his Cabinet and staff of right-leaning reactionaries. One -- and only *one* -- of whom is Robert Gates, George Bush's Secretary of Defense. (Now there's some real out-of-the-box thinking!)
And on and on.
And this ABBer – this “Anybody But Bush” con man -- this is the guy you're hoping suddenly starts thinking outside the box?
Was I dreaming when Barack Obama, immediately after he captured the Democratic nomination, spoke to AIPAC and gave a speech so fawning, so obsequious, so far up AIPAC’s ass that it would have made Joe Liberman blush?
Yeah, that's it, I must have been dreaming. It must have been some other guy named Barack Obama who did that.
Will Barack "Outside-WHAT-Box?" Obama ever tell the truth about the US and Israel?
... That the US and Israel are the two leading terrorists nations in the world.
... That the US and Israel are the war-mongerers in the Middle East.
... That the US and Israel are the sole possessors of WMDs in the Middle East.
... That the US and Israel have violated more UN resolutions that any other country in the world. By far!
... That time and again in the General Assembly it’s been the US and Israel on one side of the vote versus every other country in the world on the other side of the vote.
... That what the Israel government is doing to the Palestinians is an abomination, a crime against humanity.
... That since the first intifada, *three times* as many Palestinians have died as Israelis.
Quoting from the following article, “A Socialist Answer to the Gaza Crisis.” --
“With its terrorizing of the Palestinians, the Israeli state has lost any moral legitimacy. This is reflected inside Israel itself, where political life is increasingly dominated by religious zealots and right-wing fanatics who intimidate the Israeli population. It is a tragic irony that the closest parallel to the Israeli onslaught on the encircled population of Gaza is the murderous clearing of the Warsaw Ghetto by the Nazis.
“Israel can conduct its war only because it has the unconditional support of the US and the complicity of the European and Arab bourgeoisies.
“The US pumps $3 billion annually into the Israeli military, supplying it with the most modern weaponry. Not only President Bush and the Republicans, but the Democrats in the Senate as well have unequivocally backed Israel. Bush's successor, Barack Obama, has remained silent -- which amounts to tacit agreement. ...
“In the US, the organizers of (Gaza) demonstrations subordinate them to the Democratic Party. They address appeals to the incoming president, Barack Obama, who has long since made clear that he will continue in all essentials the foreign policy of George W. Bush.”
Click here for the entire article -- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/pers-j10.shtml
Finally, as for any member of the the Obama Administration “thinking outside the box” -- let alone the laughable, delusional idea that con-man-corporatist-mouthpiece Barack Obama is willing to think outside the box -- see the following (the title says it all): "Obama's Team of Reactionaries" -- http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/dec2008/pers-d08.shtml
How Much 'Out-of-The-Box' Thinking Can Obama Have After Pledging Allegiance To AIPAC?
How about any out-of-the-box thinking. I haven't see any up to this point. But, then again, if he was capable (or willing) to think of out of the box by his handlers, he wouldn't have been picked for the position in the first place. He is there to put a facade of change and newness on a rotting structure.
kickboxr, i have said the same thing. That Obama is here to make it appear that we still have a functioning government.
You can forget about out of the box thinking. Israel will put obama in a box and consign him to irrelevance.
Sorry to say the only thing this administration will do is flounder with these economic crises.So healthcare will not be adressed. The enviorment will not be adressed .And the change that we can believe in will be whats left in our pockets after the rich steal everything else.In reality they should just relocate isreal to europe make it another vatican city one more corrupt den of thieves.
I feel the US needs to reduce the military aid to Israel and start treating Israel like any other country. We have been like an indulgent parent of a spoiled child. The Muslim world blames the US for Israel's human rights violations and the ongoing land-grabbing in Palestine because we finance so much of their military machine. It will take a lot of educating the American people to the facts, starting with the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1947 and 1948. Most Americans haven't a clue.
Actually, Thomas Moore Hamas rockets can be condemned though in context they are firing them into their own stolen homes. And another thing, the attack on Gaza had nothing to do with these weapons. Had Israel kept or extended the cesefire there would have been no problem with rockets. But they imprisoned and starved an entire population, organised and planned the atrocity and called it self-defense. There are presently 10,600 prisoners in Israeli prisons, many were kidnapped never tried and Israel screams about a soldier, a prison guard. Two days before this prison guard of the concentration camp called the Gaza Strip was captured two brothers were kidnapped from gaza by Israeli security forces. Where are they? There are Palestinian prisoners in their thousands who were civilians of all ages and sex.
You continually push out the ridiculous prapaganda that Hamas is an Iranian entity.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Nothing!
Yes, Iran supports the Palestinians cause. So, incidentally do most people. Iran is Shia and Hamas are not. They are an off-shoot of 'The Muslim Brotherhood' originating in Egypt. That's why Mubarrak hates them even more than Israelis do. Hamas were supported by Israel in inception. Call it blowback if you will. But that worn false contention repeated every day suits the usual deceitful narrative and that is only to be expected where Zionism is ever concerned. One can always tell in advance. It is always lies. Repeat, repeat, repeat!
Hamas are neither an Iranian creation (they were promoted and encouraged by Israeli security forces to counter the Fatah) nor are they Shia. They are an Islamic Party but don't enforce Sharia or make women werar veils and so on. They are the true representatives of all the Palestinians.
Israel and the CIA (don't you just love these guys?), together with Egypt and Fatah organised and initiated well-armed agitation in Gaza to forment discord with a view to overthrowing the elected Legislative body of the Palestinians. When Hamas eventually went after these armed bands of Fatah heavies, the story was twisted to become a 'coup' by Hamas! Now, we all know how American Indians liked a 'coup' but the very idea that MSM could get away with that when the elected Body re-establishes order is astonishing. Its a bit like the repetition of a lie about how The Iranian President Ahmedinajad called for the destruction of the State of Israel. He never did! Nor is he a holocaust denier. He questions with healthy scepticism parts of the accepted dogmatic accounts. Like was it 3m not 5m and so forth? But he says that there is injustice in Jews from all across the world being entitled to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its inhabitants. And of course he is not alone there, not by a long shot! He reasonably asks why European countries or USA don't take these people into their own lands to live?
Hamas stopped suicide bombings years ago. It abided by the cease fire. Israel broke it deliberately, again. It always does. The USA has refused to speak to Iran and has been the sponsor of Israel. Israel willy-nilly attacks her neighbours. It's a criminal, militarised, expansionist and aggressive colonial enterprise that requires enemies. It has compromised any possibility of a viable Palestinian state through theft and crime. Israel is fiction and falsehood that exists through Occupation and military force. It is a rogue, pariah State. All this nonsense about negotiations with Israel should rightly be shelved to the following requirement. That Israel be compelled to abide fully by all long out-standing United Nations resolutions. That is the only way for Justice to become possible for the Palestinian people. And for that to become possible the USA must allow that body to be reformed and to assume the responsibilities for which it was ostensibly set up to perform and enforce in the first instance.
Iran is a regional power but no existential threat to any country. She has a vibrant democratic system that over time will become reformed as the Iranians see fit. It would be in the interests of all concerned to show her the respect she deserves and to negotiate outstanding issues. But Iran is right about Israel. And it should be up to true representatives of the Palestinian people to avail of all their rights under International Law in ensuring the best possible deal 'vis a vis' an Israel that would then exist. That is the only possibility of Israel having any possibility of 'right to exist', within well defined borders, in peace and security with her neighbours. And as we all know that is not on any Zionists agenda!
The Palestinians are under military 'Occupation' from the fifth largest military industrial complex in the world today. They have every right under International Law to resist in any way they see fit and by all means, including the use of violence. Many in Gaza's desperate population are refugees from towns like Askelon and Sderot where they picture Jewish squatters living in the family homelands they were ethnically cleansed from. They watch as the corrupted leadership they unceremoniously threw out of Office repress and collaborate with their cruel tormentors and to the utter and unabashed shame of what in media speak is called the 'international community' they have endured unspeakable terror and suffering. Israel continues to occupy Lenanese and Syrian lands too! But with Iran, they too voice support for the resistance and for the steadfastness of these ordinary people for their extra-ordinary endurance and steadfastness to their land. Zionist's agenda is now and always has been from over a century ago to cleanse the whole of Palestine for Jews only. And if 20% of the Palestinians are Christian what of it? They are not Jews and worse still they are Arabs. Racism and arrogance predominates while in reality they despise you too. That's Zionists with their conned 'Christian' supporters overwhelmingly from the USA, for you all!
Lbanus
You seemed to miss the point I was making. It matters not a twit why they are firing those Rockets into Israel, they are losing the propaganda war with every one they fire. They hurt their cause by using them....of course this is just the way I see it.
"You continually push out the ridiculous prapaganda that Hamas is an Iranian entity."
Hamas's funding comes from Saudi Arabia through Iran and Syria. Thats a fact that almost every intelligence entity in the world knows. Even unfriendly ones. But lets suppose you are right...where exactly do you think they get their money? What country are you saying is supplying and backing them?
"Hamas stopped suicide bombings years ago."
Somebody is still doing it and no matter who, its Hamas and the Palestinians that will get the blame.
"Iran is a regional power but no existential threat to any country"
You feel its just a peaceful little country that has no interest in dominating the Middle East?
The Palestinians are not Arabs according to Arab countruies as I understand it.
Is it your contention then that the Arab countries have never given Israel any reason to fear them? That no one bears responsibility for this mess but the Israeli? This seems to be the thrust of what you are saying. I think.
Thomas wrote: "You seemed to miss the point I was making. It matters not a twit why they are firing those Rockets into Israel, they are losing the propaganda war with every one they fire."
Hamas may be losing the propaganda war in the U.S. but they never had the upper hand in the U.S. media anyway. Now, if you're talking about the propaganda war globally, Israel is by no means the winner. In fact, that's something most Americans have yet to realize; namely that the rest of the world is well aware of the consequences of U.S. foreign policy. Only in America is it considered "anti-Semitic" to criticize Israel. In fact, if you ever go to Israel, it's really Orwellian to read stuff in the Israeli press that would have the Israeli lobby in America going nuts with protests, letter writer campaigns and the rest.
Also, are you aware that Hamas was created by Israel as a counterweight to the PLO?
According to Zeev Sternell, Hebrew University of Jerusalem historian, "Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)".
The wheel-chair bound Ahmed Yassin, spiritual leader of the Islamist movement in Palestine, went to Cairo in the 70s and set up an Islamic charity association. Israeli PM Golda Meir considered it an opportunity to do the divide-and-conquer thing against Arafat’s Fatah movement.
"Is it your contention then that the Arab countries have never given Israel any reason to fear them?"
Though the question wasn't directed at me, I'm wondering what difference it makes if Israel has beef with other Arab countries. Palestinians are semitic, just like Jews, which, of course, exposes the absurdity of those who call "pro-Palestianian" critics of Israel "anti-Semitic."
"That no one bears responsibility for this mess but the Israeli?"
Again, excuse my butting in, but I don't know of anyone who thinks Israel is the only one who bears responsibility. I mean, for starters, the state of Israel would not exist if not for it being created by guilt-plagued U.S. and European "diplomats." Wracked by guilt of having allowed the holocaust to occur, instead of establishing a home for Jewish brothers and sisters in, say, New York, where huge numbers of the diaspora lived at the time, they decided to create Israel in Palestine, regarding the non-Jews who had been living there for millennia as mere pawns to be moved off the board and dumped on Jordan. What's going on with the Palestinians is pretty much the modern day version of what happened to the Indians in America. Except back then, taking land by force of arms and killing off the population was considered acceptable. Nowadays, not so much. Hence the need for Israel's treatment of Palestinians to be spun in such a way, especially in America, to make it seem as if Israel wants peace, if only those dirty, backwards, dogs would just peacefully go away. BTW, "dog" is a term I heard many Israeli settlers use to describe Palestinians. In fact, I listed to the mayor of the largest Israeli settlement in the West Bank call Palestinians "dogs" while one of those "dogs" was on his hands and knees building a brick sidewalk for the settlers. It reminded me of the films I've seen of Klansman in 1930s Mississippi, back when black people had to do the whole step and fetch it show, so as not to offend their white masters.